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Zeful
2008-01-03, 02:39 AM
I've been designing an adventure and have run into a couple of snags.

The Background:
The PCs are hunting down a group mercenaries for the killing of a baron's daughter. They're supposed to capture a mercenary named Jedd and bring him in for questioning. They're defeating the mercenaries and are about to subdue Jedd when an arrow shoots out from the under brush and kills him. Investigating they find a masterwork shortbow and 49 arrows just left on the ground. This is the only calling card of a nigh-legendary assassin only called The Shade. This leads the PCs on sort of a wild goose chase because many mercenaries and assassins claim the title to simply get ahead. However a lead shows up when a powerful Baroness and her Master at Arms (dude in charge of mansion security) are found dead.
It turns out that the Real Shade was the Baroness's bastard child by an elven diplomat. Instead of killing the child she raised him to be a killing machine, training him in infiltration, stealth, and assassination. Ever since the age of 14 when he made his first kill he had been furthering his mother's interests. Then one day he killed her. No one knows why. At this point the PCs have three choices, 1)leave it alone and move on. 2) Capture/kill Shade for his ten years of assassination. 3)Befriend Shade and get a powerful ally.

The Issue:
Shade has a 10 Int but has been trained for 14 years on how to kill without leaving a trace. So would it be fair to the players if they incur Shade's wrath for him to use plans and strategies that would be more acceptable from a 15 int military tactician? (picking off the Wizard, CdGing sleeping party members etc.)

MisterSaturnine
2008-01-03, 02:42 AM
Well, 10 is average intelligence. So I'd say yes, especially when that's what he's been trained since 14 to do. Plans and stuff have been etched into his memory, I'd think.

Zeful
2008-01-03, 02:45 AM
I thought so but the intensive training could be interpreted by some to be a boost to intelligence, so I thought it was better to ask and get different opinions.

herrhauptmann
2008-01-03, 02:46 AM
Totally in favor of your idea.
A 'normal' person might not be especially smart or dumb on average, but ask them a question regarding their interests or specialties (especially one they've been trained in) and their apparent intelligence goes through the roof.

On the other hand, ask that normal person a question on something in which they have no experience or interest, and their apparent intelligence will plummet.

Besides, 14 years of assassinations?? Man, thats a long time killing people. He better have gotten good at it by now.

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-03, 02:46 AM
Uh.. Better question: Why does it matter?

As an NPC, Shades has exactly the INT you want him to have, so I'm failing to understand the problem. :smallconfused:

Roog
2008-01-03, 02:49 AM
So would it be fair to the players if they incur Shade's wrath for him to use plans and strategies that would be more acceptable from a 15 int military tactician? (picking off the Wizard, CdGing sleeping party members etc.)

Any tactic that the average player with years of experience at D&D could reasonably use, should be reasonable for the character.

Zeful
2008-01-03, 02:50 AM
Well I like having concrete stats for important NPCs, so that I have a frame of reference if I need to know what the character should reasonably know without it being DM fiat.

Altair_the_Vexed
2008-01-03, 02:52 AM
Aside from the "unfairness" of killing the whole party while they sleep, I don't see a problem with those plans.

INT 10 is, as Mr Saturnine says, normal for humans. It's not dumb. An INT 10 person can easily work out that a wizard is a serious threat and needs to be isolated from the rest of the group. As for Coup de Grace on sleeping targets - that's the safest way to win a fight. Those sort of tactics aren't "smart", they're "not stupid".

Besides, one doesn't need to be really clever to work out a good plan - it could be down to insight and determination to think through every action, rather than raw intellect. I doubt most of my players (and myself) have higher than INT 13 or so.

To reflect the intensive training the assassin has had, you could maybe put some ranks into "Profession (Assassin)".

Just be careful that you don't go straight into TPK. The players won't call that fun - unless you have some really cool adventures in the afterlife for them.

Fhaolan
2008-01-03, 02:54 AM
I've been designing an adventure and have run into a couple of snags.

The Issue:
Shade has a 10 Int but has been trained for 14 years on how to kill without leaving a trace. So would it be fair to the players if they incur Shade's wrath for him to use plans and strategies that would be more acceptable from a 15 int military tactician? (picking off the Wizard, CdGing sleeping party members etc.)

Okay, a character of average human intelligence, but has been through a grinding training process to produce the ultimate killing machine.

This means you're dealing with a lot of trained responses. Yes, he can come up with plans and strategies that would *seem* to be from a high-Int military tactician, but they'll be missing little details. That's because they come straight from his training, with less adaptability to the current situation than what the actual high-Int tactician would do. (Though he can modify some, because he does have average human intelligence.) Basically, he's running on trained reflexes and his memory of the tactics taught rather than his actual ability to plan.

MisterSaturnine
2008-01-03, 03:01 AM
Aside from the "unfairness" of killing the whole party while they sleep, I don't see a problem with those plans.

INT 10 is, as Mr Saturnine says, normal for humans. It's not dumb. An INT 10 person can easily work out that a wizard is a serious threat and needs to be isolated from the rest of the group. As for Coup de Grace on sleeping targets - that's the safest way to win a fight. Those sort of tactics aren't "smart", they're "not stupid".

Besides, one doesn't need to be really clever to work out a good plan - it could be down to insight and determination to think through every action, rather than raw intellect. I doubt most of my players (and myself) have higher than INT 13 or so.

To reflect the intensive training the assassin has had, you could maybe put some ranks into "Profession (Assassin)".

Just be careful that you don't go straight into TPK. The players won't call that fun - unless you have some really cool adventures in the afterlife for them.

...can we pretend I said that? 'Cause I think Altair kinda hit the nail on the head there.

EDIT: Oh, also, Fhaolan has a really good point with the trained responses thing. Plus, it means that you can have a guy who has really good plans, ambushes the PCs, deals a lot of damage, gets 'em nice and scared, but won't TPK them. It's an enemy that has good plans, but if they come up with something creative, it's probably gonna have good results. Which is always fun. :smallsmile:

Zeful
2008-01-03, 03:03 AM
To reflect the intensive training the assassin has had, you could maybe put some ranks into "Profession (Assassin)".

Just be careful that you don't go straight into TPK. The players won't call that fun - unless you have some really cool adventures in the afterlife for them.

That's kind of the issue I'm stumped with, how should I mechanically represent a lifetime of killing people without leaving a trace (aside from his calling card)? Ranks in Knowledge (tactics)? Profession (Assassin)? Higher int?

Also Shade would arguably be the most dangerous character in the campaign setting due to his knowledge.

Lemur
2008-01-03, 03:08 AM
To reflect the intensive training the assassin has had, you could maybe put some ranks into "Profession (Assassin)".

Or Knowledge (Murderizing) or Craft (Head on a Stick).

If you really do need to feel some mechanical justification though, a few skill ranks are exactly what you're looking for. People of ordinary, or even below average intelligence can and often do have specialized knowledge about something which can make them an expert in their field, even if they're not a super genius.

Profession (Assassin) or Knowledge (Tactics) can be used to represent this fairly well. If he's really top caliber, he may also have one or more points in Knowledge (Local) and/or (Nobility).

The Extinguisher
2008-01-03, 03:13 AM
It's normal. Average. Sure he's not likely to get into Harvard, but he's not going to be stuck in fastfood all his life.

I remember a discussion with my DM on intelligence scores. I was comparing my score (a 16) to our parties wizard (an 18).
He basically summed up everything that is wrong with INT in one phrase. "Oh, poor you. I guess you'll be stuck with discovering the fundemental laws that govern the universe instead of discovering cold fusion. What a tragedy"

So yes, it's perfectly reasonable that a person with an INT of 10 would come up with a plan to kill everyone semi-efficiently, not including the training the character already has, which would make him a very dangerous person to be dealt with.

Zeful
2008-01-03, 03:17 AM
I think my best bet would be two or three Ranks in knowledge (Tactics) and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), as he's been a slave to his mother since birth I don't think that ranks in Profession (Assassin) are relevant, he's never made money, nor his mother, so I don't think it applies to much.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-01-03, 03:41 AM
I'd say max out ranks in knowledge (tactics), probably proffession (assasin) as this represents what he's been doing all this time. Probably skill focus knowlege (tactics) also. Also, depending on his level (which should be quite high) he might be better at making a plan and then making contingency plans, and then more contingency plans, and ways to deal with trip ups to his plans, etc. I mean 14 years is a long time, he must've seen a lot of different tricks, and been able to come up with ways to counter them all. His training must've been really comprehensive, and enough training makes certian things obvious not because you can think on your feet, but because you've dealt with that before.

On the other hand, maybe his mom was the true brains behind it. In which case he'd be good, really really good. Basically once he had a plan of how to kill you, better luck next time pal, cause this life is over. But maybe he's not so good at the creative side (setting the ambush, determining the idea place and time, etc) and has only what he's been able to generally pick up from his mothers plans that she laid out for him. Then he'd know some contingencies, but not to many. Honestly I think this deals with wisdom more then intelligence, was he wise enough to really get invovled in figuring out all the details of how he'd avoid the guards, how he'd know exactly where his target was, etc, or did he let mommy do it?

JackMage666
2008-01-03, 03:48 AM
I don't know where you guys are from, but I live in the United States, and the "Average Intelligence" of a person is a frightening stat. I don't think he could fire a bow, let alone use military strategy. Maybe he could get a beer and open it with his teeth, but that's all the credit I'd give him.

Zeful
2008-01-03, 04:58 AM
First different people have different definitions of Average jackMage666. I've had to deal with mostly 'gifted' people my entire life so my average is different from most peoples, which is why I'm asking.

Now on to the questions:

On the other hand, maybe his mom was the true brains behind it. In which case he'd be good, really really good. Basically once he had a plan of how to kill you, better luck next time pal, cause this life is over. But maybe he's not so good at the creative side (setting the ambush, determining the idea place and time, etc) and has only what he's been able to generally pick up from his mothers plans that she laid out for him. Then he'd know some contingencies, but not to many. Honestly I think this deals with wisdom more then intelligence, was he wise enough to really get invovled in figuring out all the details of how he'd avoid the guards, how he'd know exactly where his target was, etc, or did he let mommy do it?
The Master at Arms had the most contact with Shade, kind of like the guy briefs soldiers nowadays. He would give Shade the marks name, title, and then drop him off two or three miles away from the target. When Shade first entered the field the Master at Arms would guide him through simpler kills. But after The Shade became a legendary figure his mother took a more active role in the briefings. After a couple of years he needed less information and needed only a name and a description.

Does that answer your questions SDL?

Talic
2008-01-03, 05:59 AM
Bear in mind, wolves have an int of 1 in D&D, but they are capable of tactics such as flanking, feinting, and team effort. They know that sleeping targets are better to go after than alert ones.

Int has little to do with battle tactics, unless you're getting into formations, layered defenses, and the like.

Fixer
2008-01-03, 07:07 AM
Intelligence deals with one's ability to learn new things and quickly assimilate new information.

This fellow with the 10 INT doesn't have to have ranks in esoteric skills in order to be an effective assassin. He simply makes plans that don't require quick-thinking and follows them.

Now, when things do NOT go according to plan he is most likely to withdraw and make a new plan than attempt to 'run with it' and think up a new plan on the fly. He would know his limitations and quick-thinking isn't one of them. Recognizing a weakness is necessary for success, even as an assassin.

Talic
2008-01-03, 07:12 AM
Intelligence deals with one's ability to learn new things and quickly assimilate new information.

This fellow with the 10 INT doesn't have to have ranks in esoteric skills in order to be an effective assassin. He simply makes plans that don't require quick-thinking and follows them.

Now, when things do NOT go according to plan he is most likely to withdraw and make a new plan than attempt to 'run with it' and think up a new plan on the fly. He would know his limitations and quick-thinking isn't one of them. Recognizing a weakness is necessary for success, even as an assassin.

Of course, with 14 years experience, he likely has a wealth of experience of different things that have gone wrong, and the steps he took to counter them.

Experience is an effective substitute for intellect, provided your experience covers that area.

SilverClawShift
2008-01-03, 07:40 AM
Experience is an effective substitute for intellect, provided your experience covers that area.

Exactly. Remember that your behavior is not governed by a single stat. Your intelligence, your perceptiveness, your drive (personality, charisma), and what you realize that you are or are not capable of doing will all come into play.

Average INT means that you need a sheet of paper to work out mathematical equations, not that you can't learn mathematical concepts. It means you aren't actively trying to form logical conclusions until you've stopped and told yourself you need to.
It doesn't mean you're incapable of understanding or learning just about anything, it's just a measure of how naturally it might come to you and how rapidly you can adapt your mindset to include new information.
Someone with perfectly average intelligence could still become, say, an expert chef with 14 years of training and practice. They could become an architect. They could become a blacksmith.
It's really a question of what they sat down and actually learned how to DO.

So I would say a 10 INT creature with a half a lifetime of military and assassination training would be an incredibly capable killer. But if something deviated from their planned course of actions, they'd probably flat out dissapear for a length of time while trying to formulate a new plan.
If a hired killer thought your party didn't have a healer, but then on bringing one of you into negatives, found out that the fighter was actually a cleric who could heal the teamates allready 'killed'... well, a 10 INT creature might not immediately know what to do with that new peice of info, but they WOULD be smart enough to know it was time to bail out and come up with a new plan.

Tormsskull
2008-01-03, 07:48 AM
I don't know where you guys are from, but I live in the United States, and the "Average Intelligence" of a person is a frightening stat.

I laughed a little bit, then noted your location, and laughed a lot more. I can totally understand where you are coming from.

Zeful, I'm going to sidestep your initial questions (as other posters have given plenty of good input on that matter) and address a different matter. The information you listed in "Background" reads like a static piece of information. This will happen, then this will happen, then this will happen.

Always allow for freedom and flexibility in your plans as the PCs will sometimes surprise you. Try not to get too caught up on the exact events that are going to transpire, and give yourself some time to contemplate other outcomes should the PCs change your plans.

Always give the PCs a chance to do the unexpected, or else it will seem less like a game and more like a choose-your-own-adventure book.

de-trick
2008-01-03, 08:35 AM
isn't there a lose formula for IQ and int stat like add a 0 so a 10 would turn out to be a 100IQ. I believe I have a 106IQ(Could be higher or lower was a online test) and I'm in pre-calculus math and have a decent mark 70 I think (I'm on a holiday). remember that a 18 stat is very broken because a 18 stat is humanly not possible I believe even the greatest minds of us only have a 14INT maybe a 16INT at most.

--------
Now with this shade character and INT think of it like you and D&D, you being shade and D&D assassinating. Core was very hard to learn at first and needed help to learn it. Then once you got a little experience and got comfortable with it a new book was introduced say a complete book. took a little time to master it but not as much as before. Then after that a setting book and you get that first read. Same goes with assassinating you said he was trained by the man-at-arms and baroness that would be the core took the longest to learn. Then he only needed less information to us and using D&D complete books. Then only a name and description would be the setting.

Telonius
2008-01-03, 09:39 AM
This isn't really an issue of a high or low INT score. Intelligence is (among other things) a measure of how quickly you can pick up on things. Planning an assassination would probably be more of a Profession (Assassin) thing. (Actually carrying out would probably be based on actions within a round). Profession is a Wisdom-based skill, not an Intelligence-based skill. I think that gets at the root of the problem. Shade knows lots about killing people, not because he's smarter than anybody else, but because he's had 14 years of training and experience. That's more like Wisdom than Intelligence.

KoDT69
2008-01-03, 10:32 AM
I posted this in another skill thread, but really applicable here:


In my games, I handle trade skills like Craft and Profession differently than RAW. Killing monsters and solving riddles will never allow these skills to get any better. I have it set up normal at character creation for 1st level, then they can gain Academic bonuses for time spent in apprenticeship after 1st level and/or Experience bonuses +1 per year of active skill use. I feel this much better explains why a master blacksmith can forge dragonscale armor and have 8hp. 20th level commoners are retarded. a 0 level guy working diligently at his craft for 30 years makes more sense to me that he would be better for the job. 30 years experience trumps 4 points of INT any day. Just because you can figure out A WAY, doesn't mean you automatically know THE BEST WAY to get the job done.

OK so for the assassin guy, 14 years experience by my rules would gain a +14 Experience modifier, we'll be modest and say he got the equivalent of an Associate's Degree in the field (4 very full time semesters IRL) for a +4 Academic bonus from time under his mentor, and his initial 4 ranks at 1st level that any class is entitled to. Assuming also a 10 WIS he would still have a total Profession (Assassin) modifier of +22. That's a pretty significant bonus on most levels (you didn't mention what level the PC's are in this scenario).

Craig1f
2008-01-03, 02:45 PM
My opinion is that IQ = INT * 10.

This would put the smartest living tested human IRL at INT 20.

Mensa has set the minimum bar at between 132 and 148 (depending on the test). I think 140 is generally considered genius.

Xyk
2008-01-03, 03:15 PM
int 10 is 100IQ. anybody who has been trained as a silent killer for 14 years (which is a ridiculously long time) is gonna know to kill them while they sleep because if it gets to open combat every master assassin knows to run. If he did take the time to kill one of them it would be a wizard. He would probably set an ambush soon after.

He probably wouldn't be able to do much math for you but if you ask him for a list of ways to kill someone, he'd know about every one.

Riffington
2008-01-03, 07:54 PM
Any tactic that the average player with years of experience at D&D could reasonably use, should be reasonable for the character.

This. Think of the people on this board. They are capable of using the internet and playing D&D, therefore have an Int of 8+. Intelligence is normally distributed. So that suggests*: 75% of the people on this board probably have Int between 8 and 12. 20% have Int between 12 and 14. 5% have Int above 14.

So any tactic you can explain on this board and not get a whole bunch of "wtf mate?", this character understands better than you do.

*Yes, I see the possible flaw in the above reasoning, but I don't believe it skews the results much in either direction.

Tengu
2008-01-03, 09:08 PM
My opinion is that IQ = INT * 10.

This would put the smartest living tested human IRL at INT 20.

Mensa has set the minimum bar at between 132 and 148 (depending on the test). I think 140 is generally considered genius.

I don't think if that works that way. Do all the tactical feats like Feint require 130 IQ? You have to be cunning to use them efficiently, sure, but not close to being a genius!

I think there's no easy conversion between DND's intelligence and IQ. Especially since IQ doesn't increase as you age or get more experienced, and intelligence does.

Yahzi
2008-01-03, 09:39 PM
To reflect the intensive training the assassin has had, you could maybe put some ranks into "Profession (Assassin)".
Exactly. And then let him roll against his skill to come up with killer plans.

Yahzi
2008-01-03, 09:41 PM
I don't know where you guys are from, but I live in the United States, and the "Average Intelligence" of a person is a frightening stat.
It gets worse.

Fully half the populace is below 100! One out of two people you meet is below average!

Can you believe that?

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

SomethingElse
2008-01-03, 10:03 PM
Here's my thinking on this: first, I would argue that Int 10 is actually slightly below average, based on the totally informal observation that myself and a friend of mine, who aren't particularly athletic guys, and who don't eat particularly healthily, have strength equivalent to 12 in real life, as far as we can tell. This can probably be attributed to the fact that we're male and, although D&D doesn't reflect this, probably have a slightly higher strength than most women. So if you argue that average women have strength 10, and average men strength 12, then the racial average for humans would be 11. There are counterarguments, such as disputing if women really have lower upper-body strength or arguing that "medieval" settings such as D&D lead to people with lower muscle mass (probably true in real life, but seems sketchy in a
setting where magic is easily available.)

This is all mainly academic, though, because tactics like the ones you're talking about should come easily to an experienced adventurer. Nonsentient animals can use tactics to some extent, and even very stupid people should know how to do their job well. Class levels don't represent some mystical stats, they represent actual skill, and a high-level character should really be played better than an amateur.

I like the suggestions below about Profession skills, too.

TheOOB
2008-01-03, 10:10 PM
Int is more a measure of your ability to learn and sheer brain power then your knowledge. A character with 10 int and 10 ranks in profession<scientist> probably is much better at math then someone with 14 int and no ranks in a math based skill, sure that 14 int person could learn those skills easier(by virtue of more skill points), but they have to learn it first.

Errata
2008-01-04, 01:45 AM
isn't there a lose formula for IQ and int stat like add a 0 so a 10 would turn out to be a 100IQ. I believe I have a 106IQ(Could be higher or lower was a online test) and I'm in pre-calculus math and have a decent mark 70 I think (I'm on a holiday). remember that a 18 stat is very broken because a 18 stat is humanly not possible I believe even the greatest minds of us only have a 14INT maybe a 16INT at most.

A couple of issues with this. First, there are people with IQs of 180+, its just not common. Second, this heuristic would allow for PCs with IQs as low as 30 if you roll for stats rather than use point buy, which is not high enough to function as an independent adult.

I think the best way to look at it is with standard deviations from the mean. If you consider rolling stats using the classic 3d6, I think its fair to assume that that gives you an idea of how stats in the D&D world are distributed on average. Note that player characters are probably a little above average compared to the NPCs populating the world. The average stat for 3d6 is actually 10.5, so 10.5 would correspond roughly to 100 IQ, if its properly normalized. That would put 10 slightly below average and 11 slightly above average. Depending on the test methodology, IQ tests have a standard deviation of around 15 points. 3d6 happens to fall along a pretty nice approximation of a bell curve, with a standard deviation of about 2 points. Therefore, every increase of 2 stat points (+1 ability mod) is about 15 points increase in IQ. To make the rule of thumb simpler we could just call 10 average (since PCs are above average after all), and that would make an 18 correspond to an IQ of about 160, which matches pretty nicely.

SomethingElse
2008-01-04, 01:58 AM
I think IQ as a measure of intelligence is highly flawed - most psychologists in academia and certainly in counseling have rejected it. Why should we hold onto it in D&D as anything more than a rough measure?

Cuddly
2008-01-04, 02:06 AM
You don't need mechanical justification for why your assassin is such a cunning and ruthless killer, as long as his int and wis aren't abysmal. Even a character with int 8 or 6 and a decent wis score could reasonably execute fairly brutal and devastating strategies.

Ie, kill 'em in their sleep, or go after the magic user.

Douglas
2008-01-04, 02:20 AM
If you must equate int and IQ, do it right. The standard deviation of 3d6 is very close to 3.0. The standard deviation of IQ is about 15. Therefore, 1 point of int = 5 points of IQ. The average is 10.5 int = 100 IQ, though using 10 = 100 is easier and not too far off.

Someone with 18 intelligence is about as exceptional as someone with 140 IQ. Someone with 3 intelligence would be equivalent to 65 IQ - definitely retarded, but within the range of real world human intelligence.

Back on topic, 10 int + 14 years of experience and training = highly skilled expert, absolutely deadly if he has a plan, but not that great at improvising - he can do it, he's just not very good at it.

Talic
2008-01-04, 02:34 AM
Back on topic, 10 int + 14 years of experience and training = highly skilled expert, absolutely deadly if he has a plan, but not that great at improvising - he can do it, he's just not very good at it.

I disagree. Exactly how much does someone learn doing the same thing for 14 years? How many shortcuts? How many plans were foiled? How many failures have taught this guy what to do when things go wrong? What you see as an improvisation could actually be, "This is a lot like that kill I botched 11 years ago... And afterwards I came up with this to fix it."

High int really determines how well you think "outside the box". How imaginative your methods are. Not how effective.

BRC
2008-01-04, 02:38 AM
Remember, you players arn't going to see the character sheet, and unless their nitpicky boopholes they won't stand up and say
"OMG, THAT GUY SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO THINK THAT UP! I DEMAND WE START OVER WHERE HE WALKS UP IN FRONT OF US, LETS US EAT LUNCH AND THEN TRIES TO KILL US USING ONLY A FORK!"

VanBuren
2008-01-04, 03:28 AM
Remember, you players arn't going to see the character sheet, and unless their nitpicky boopholes they won't stand up and say
"OMG, THAT GUY SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO THINK THAT UP! I DEMAND WE START OVER WHERE HE WALKS UP IN FRONT OF US, LETS US EAT LUNCH AND THEN TRIES TO KILL US USING ONLY A FORK!"

To which the DM replies, "Oh, would you look at that. Your PC just got hit by lightning and eaten by a grue. And oh, what a turn of bad luck. His soul just got eaten by Kezef. Looks like you can't Raise Dead, Resurrect, or True Resurrect. Guess you'd better make a new character."

MagFlare
2008-01-04, 06:01 AM
So would it be fair to the players if they incur Shade's wrath for him to use plans and strategies that would be more acceptable from a 15 int military tactician? (picking off the Wizard, CdGing sleeping party members etc.)

If you're an adventurer in a fantasy world, "kill the wizard first" is roughly equivalent to "don't touch the stove." The first time you get fireballed, you're going to figure out that bearded, elderly guys in dresses are bad news.


My opinion is that IQ = INT * 10.

This would put the smartest living tested human IRL at INT 20.

Who's that? And what IQ test did he or she take?

I ask because my wife, who administers IQ tests from time to time, maintains that no IQ test can reliably return results greater than 150 or so.

Craig1f
2008-01-04, 01:25 PM
I don't think if that works that way. Do all the tactical feats like Feint require 130 IQ? You have to be cunning to use them efficiently, sure, but not close to being a genius!

I think there's no easy conversion between DND's intelligence and IQ. Especially since IQ doesn't increase as you age or get more experienced, and intelligence does.

I have two responses to that

1) Perhaps, my theory could be adjusted to IQ = (INT - 10) * 5 + 100. That would make Feint have a requirement of 115 IQ, which is more reasonable. That would also make the smartest living person, who has an IQ of 200, have an INT score of 30.

2) An intelligence requirement for Feint makes no sense, and is probably there more for balance reasons. Dexterity makes more sense. There are plenty of football players out there, who are much dumber and less wise than me (and probably a few who are smarter and wiser, who knows?), who could feint the hell out of me with little effort. You don't have to be intelligent to feint, you just need to be nimble, and take the time to learn.

I think the INT requirement for Improved Feint was meant to throw a bone to Fighters that don't use INT as their dump stat.

Craig1f
2008-01-04, 01:34 PM
If you're an adventurer in a fantasy world, "kill the wizard first" is roughly equivalent to "don't touch the stove." The first time you get fireballed, you're going to figure out that bearded, elderly guys in dresses are bad news.



Who's that? And what IQ test did he or she take?

I ask because my wife, who administers IQ tests from time to time, maintains that no IQ test can reliably return results greater than 150 or so.

Marilyn vos Savant (which is where the term Savant comes from).

I thought her tested IQ was around 200, but apparently it's around 228. So that would put her INT at either 22-23, or 35-36, depending on which formula you use for int. The first would be IQ = INT * 10 (10 points per INT score), the second would be IQ = ((INT - 10) * 5) + 100 (5 points per INT score).

Of course there's a bunch of controversy around the score, but that's to be expected.

Riffington
2008-01-04, 02:37 PM
It's hard to get tests to measure very high IQs, for two reasons:
1. You don't have enough N to get statistical validity.
2. The people designing the tests tend to have IQs around 120.

This does not mean there aren't people walking around with an IQ 170. It means their measured IQ is going to be 140-200.

Side note: do not use Profession (tactics) for anything other than "I am a freelance tactician who writes up tactics proposals and sells them to military subcontractors. My check determines how much gp I make". If you try to make it more relevant, you will not like the results. First of all, it should really be Craft (battle plan), and second of all, it's just a bad idea.

GoC
2008-01-04, 07:15 PM
My opinion is that IQ = INT * 10.

This would put the smartest living tested human IRL at INT 20.

So I'm the smartest living human then?:smallconfused:

Admitedly I only took the test once but even so...

Craig1f: My INT's higher than any non-megaepic D&D creature then!:smallbiggrin:

Errata
2008-01-04, 07:24 PM
So I'm the smartest living human then?:smallconfused:

Admitedly I only took the test once but even so...

Craig1f: My INT's higher than any non-megaepic D&D creature then!:smallbiggrin:

You can't take a reputable written test and get a score of 200, although there are any number of phony quizzes on the internet, completely lacking in any statistical rigor, that will gladly give you such scores. I can point you to an online test where you can answer "A" on every multiple choice question and it will give you an evaluation saying you have a supergenius IQ of 180+, but thats obviously not a meaningful test.

Very high scores are generally only given after tests administered in person by psychologists, and they generally only administer specialized tests after a previous test indicates a score thats out of range for the test. Thus it would be something that would require you to have taken more than just one test.

Errata
2008-01-04, 07:30 PM
Marilyn vos Savant (which is where the term Savant comes from).

Thats not where the term come from. The word has been around since long before she was born. It comes from the French word savoir, meaning to know.

Ellisthion
2008-01-05, 11:04 AM
Average INT means that you need a sheet of paper to work out mathematical equations, not that you can't learn mathematical concepts. [...]
It doesn't mean you're incapable of understanding or learning just about anything, it's just a measure of how naturally it might come to you and how rapidly you can adapt your mindset to include new information.

Sorry, but life doesn't work like that. No matter what the politically-correct folk these days tell you, the fact is: some people are smarter than others, and it DOES mean something. High level maths are not just rote learning, like, say, Trig is. There are things that average people are incapable of learning or understanding properly.

I wouldn't think an int 10 assassin is likely to have lasted 14 years. If you put everything down to training, I would probably expect a fairly routine plan, which has worked in the past for other targets, but is not actually adapted well for the situation.

MCerberus
2008-01-05, 12:02 PM
The problem you run into with plans = int scores are animals. For example, pack animals like wolves use stealth to surround their prey and deception to lure them into the main attack force. Worgs, Hell Hounds, and Winter Wolves essentially do the same thing.

Add to that the fact that the general strat for adventurers is to "run up to it and hit it with my sword."

There seems to be something off.

Neek
2008-01-05, 12:46 PM
I don't know where you guys are from, but I live in the United States, and the "Average Intelligence" of a person is a frightening stat.

I hate to say it, I agree with you there. But truth be told, even the most average of people in the intelligence department only act dumb, because by no societal standard are they expected to act smart or display their intelligence.

Let's drop IQ from the table; IQ is highly language and social dependent (an native African taking an American IQ test would possibly score lower than a native IQ test), and requires assuming intelligence is a set of certain factors; the factors vary, and there is no true consensus. So let's get back to mechanics: Your mental stats (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) are an attempt to quantify your mental abilities.

The SRD describes intelligence to be "how well your character learns and reasons." This means that at 10, you're average. Wisdom is your "willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition." Furthermore, "While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings."

This means that neither of these abilities truly factor into an assassin of average intelligence. They have an effect, however, but do not truly correlate. A mid Int and high Wis would imply that character reasons his situation averagely, but works more on instinct rather than smarts. However, if both are average, then it can be assumed that after fourteen years and extensive training, the assassin has assimilated the information as best as he can--and the information assimilated is superior to the information that other assassins have received.

But I honestly wouldn't worry about attempting to qualify (or quantify) the assassin's ability or plan. Players constantly use information that's beyond them, or reason outside their character's stats, to accomplish a task or formulate a plan. Just use it; your players won't know either way.