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View Full Version : Profession skills make no sense.



Aquillion
2008-01-03, 03:46 AM
Is it just me, or does the Profession skill make no sense at all? According to the way it's set up, all professions earn the exact same amount: Half your skill check in gold pieces.

This means that Profession (privy-cleaner) earns you the same amount as Profession (banker), which earns the same amount as Profession (street-sweeper), Profession (advocate), Profession (sailor) or Profession (Emperor).

Additionally, apparently all professions, of all types, are wis-based. Sailors are wisdom-based. Advocates and lawyers are wisdom-based. Technically, profession (circus strongman) is wisdom based. Your other attributes have no bearing on your earning abilities at all -- you could have profession (surgeon) with a dex of 3 and would still earn money just fine. Fine, you could say that wisdom helps you accumulate experience at your trade... but this could just as easily be said for any other skill, and doesn't explain how some professions (e.g. surgeon) with an obvious real-world dependence on a certain other stat completely ignore that stat in D&D. (The pedantic will argue that a surgeon should be houseruled to earn money with the Heal skill, which also ignores dex. But you get the idea.)

There's also the fact that the profession skill almost always earns you more than the Perform skill, except occasionally with a result of 30 (but beyond that, Profession wins again, since the DC 30 result is the max for performance. Apparently, epic performances don't earn any more money than merely exceptional ones... Take that, Shakespeare!) So... a skilled sailor anywhere in the world earns more, or roughly equal to, a skilled playwright in a major city?

Bag_of_Holding
2008-01-03, 04:31 AM
A performer who can do some serious perform checks regularly would be hired for an insane amount of money rather than singing in the streets, possibly getting more money than RAW.

Also, in case of Profession, D&D 3.5 is not a game where you role-play who well you do in your job. It's just a tool to shape your character!:smallsmile:

its_all_ogre
2008-01-03, 04:31 AM
makes perfect sense.
i evade that fireball in a 5 foot space after all.
if you want a 'real-life simulation' dnd is not it.
and what a revelation that is.....:smalltongue:

Sebastian
2008-01-03, 05:15 AM
Profession is not about how good you are at your job, it is about how good you are at make money with your job, a subtle, but important, distinction. So you could be a surgeon that is not very good, but make a lot of money all the same.

Beside it must be the GM that decide if a profession(x) skill make sense or not.

Matthew
2008-01-03, 05:45 AM
The Profession (X) Skill has many problems, not least of which is that it tends to contradict the cost of Hirelings table. If you do a search for Profession here, you should turn up a few threads on the subject. It's problems are also linked to the D&D economic system (or what little there is of one) which is similarily troubled. Basically, this is one of the areas of the game in which I would advise you to excercise some intelligence and not pay a whole lot of attention to some poorly thought out rules.

kpenguin
2008-01-03, 05:47 AM
Is it just me, or does the Profession skill make no sense at all?

No, its not just you. The Profession skill doesn't make sense.

Emperor Demonking
2008-01-03, 06:02 AM
The Profession (X) Skill has many problems, not least of which is that it tends to contradict the cost of Hirelings table.


They're NPCs, its a well known fact that the reason people hire PCs, is for the boasting possibilities. Actually if we look at it like that with wis being the stat to be aware of this rule, it makes perfect sense.

nargbop
2008-01-03, 08:28 AM
It's a dungeoncrawling system, designed for fighting monsters in a grid with squares 5 feet across, with a bunch of extra stuff tacked on. It wasn't realistic in its fighting sense, merely fun. It isn't realistic in the slightest in the rest of it, but still... fun.

As a DM, I ignore most of the non-combat rules and go by DM fiat on everything else.

Epic_Wizard
2008-01-03, 09:00 AM
makes perfect sense.
i evade that fireball in a 5 foot space after all.
if you want a 'real-life simulation' dnd is not it.
and what a revelation that is.....:smalltongue:

Actually the way I have always interpreted it is that first of all everything in a round actually happens at once or very close to it so your Reflex save doesn't necessarily take place in one five foot square. Plus a fireball is like any other explosive except without the shrapnel so it makes perfect sense that there would be areas within the area of the spell that at any given instant are not full of explosive gases or have fewer of them. The Rogue Improved Evasion ability is basically similar to jumping around among lasers and the Rogue simply misses all of them instead of most or half.

As for the 'everything happens at once' idea, lets not get into that now.

D&D is as realistic as you make it and with very few exceptions it is all about how you project the rules off of the board and into you imagination.

As for Profession skills it is a simple matter to house rule which Professions needs what ability most.

Tormsskull
2008-01-03, 09:26 AM
Actually the way I have always interpreted it is that first of all everything in a round actually happens at once or very close to it so your Reflex save doesn't necessarily take place in one five foot square. Plus a fireball is like any other explosive except without the shrapnel so it makes perfect sense that there would be areas within the area of the spell that at any given instant are not full of explosive gases or have fewer of them. The Rogue Improved Evasion ability is basically similar to jumping around among lasers and the Rogue simply misses all of them instead of most or half.


However, the mechanics of the ability do not require that the character have room to jump around and such. In fact, if I am not mistaken, a character trapped in a 5x5 room where a fireball effect was somehow introduced (delayed blast fireball maybe? I dunno, example only), a character with improved evasion could still completely dodge out of the way of the effect.

I always imagined a fireball as a sphere filled completely of fire up to its radius. I suppose if you imagine it as a rolling fire with patches of non-fiery parts, evasion could still make sense in that effect.

Personally, I would say evasion and improved evasion do not work when it isn't possible for them to work.



As for Profession skills it is a simple matter to house rule which Professions needs what ability most.

Yeah, you can do that, I'd also recommend giving synnergy bonuses to other skills that make sense. If you have Profession (Sailor), for example, giving a +1 to Use Rope checks wouldn't be out of the question.

DeathQuaker
2008-01-03, 09:44 AM
I always considered it a "Catch-all" skill--if a player insists he has a job and might make some money at it, it provides you an easy way of determining what he's gotten. If you as GM have a better way of coming up with such a thing (including using rules for running businesses offered in Cityscape, etc.) then go for it.

But the fact is, if you're adventuring, there isn't going to be much opportunity to do a "normal" job anyway. With that, in my games, I just have Profession cover less a money-making thing and more just filling in random skills not covered by other skills on the list--and like Tormskull suggests, let it provide appropriate synergies (so that Profession: Lawyer boosts Diplomacy checks when arguing a legal matter, and Profession: Miner boosts Survival checks underground, and so on).

Talya
2008-01-03, 09:48 AM
Stormwrack makes profession (sailor) actually useful for in game mechanics, but it has little to do with how much money you make at sailing a ship.

The Extinguisher
2008-01-03, 10:12 AM
It hasn't come up a whole lot, but I know in my gaming sessions, we rarely use what little profession skills we have to actually make money.

I remember one time, after 'dragon slaying' near a town, one of our party memebers made a profession (mercenary) or something like that to proclaim that we are the greatest and to raise our public image.

No money or anything, just a useful skill that we wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

KoDT69
2008-01-03, 10:26 AM
In my games, I handle trade skills like Craft and Profession differently than RAW. Killing monsters and solving riddles will never allow these skills to get any better. I have it set up normal at character creation for 1st level, then they can gain Academic bonuses for time spent in apprenticeship after 1st level and/or Experience bonuses +1 per year of active skill use. I feel this much better explains why a master blacksmith can forge dragonscale armor and have 8hp. 20th level commoners are retarded. a 0 level guy working diligently at his craft for 30 years makes more sense to me that he would be better for the job. 30 years experience trumps 4 points of INT any day. Just because you can figure out A WAY, doesn't mean you automatically know THE BEST WAY to get the job done. In the case of money earned, I stick to the book for gp earned unless there is a special situation to which the PC can name his price.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-03, 03:16 PM
The "Profession" rule is one of those best ignored, as it really doesn't make sense. Besides, players aren't going to do that (since they're adventurers) and for NPCs, who cares about small town economy anyway?

Cuddly
2008-01-03, 05:31 PM
There's a section in the DMG that lists the wages of 20 or 30 professions. They happen to be different.

SurlySeraph
2008-01-03, 08:44 PM
THere's an easy way to make them make sense. Would you agree that becoming a lawyer takes more skill than becoming a fast food worker? More skill. More skill ranks.

If you have, say 3 ranks in Profession (surgeon), you don't have the skills of a real surgeon yet. You're a gurney-pusher, an IV-filler, a scalpel-sharpener, not a real surgeon yet. When you get enough points in Profession (surgeon) to be making as much as a surgeon logically should, then you're an actual surgeon.

You can extend this argument to other professions (3 ranks in Lawyer means you're a summer intern, a coffee-fetcher, or something similar, 3 ranks in Politician could make you the mayor's stationary purchasing manager, etc.) No, it's not supported by RAW, but it's logical and not incompatible with RAW.

TheOOB
2008-01-03, 10:07 PM
If the income from a profession skill, any profession skill, makes up a significant amount of your wealth, then D&D isn't the game for you. Professions purpose is to make it so there is a skill for all the strange possible things you might want a character to do that don't deserve their own skill. You use profession<seige engineer> to shoot a catapult, profession<commander> to send orders effectivly down the line, and profession<gardener> to grow those rare magic herb seeds you found.

Epic_Wizard
2008-01-04, 10:25 AM
If the income from a profession skill, any profession skill, makes up a significant amount of your wealth, then D&D isn't the game for you. Professions purpose is to make it so there is a skill for all the strange possible things you might want a character to do that don't deserve their own skill. You use profession<seige engineer> to shoot a catapult, profession<commander> to send orders effectivly down the line, and profession<gardener> to grow those rare magic herb seeds you found.

Yeah the option to make money with your skills is really just there if you are short 10gp for a Portable Hole or something. This way the DM says 'Okay you go work for the 10gp' instead of having to make and run an encounter on the spot.

If you look at the Savage Tide adventure path the Profession skills get a surprising amount of use but the checks are also possible with other skills.

Oh and KoDT69 yes the shirt on your sig IS to cliche :smallamused:

KoDT69
2008-01-04, 11:42 AM
Oh and KoDT69 yes the shirt on your sig IS to cliche :smallamused:

Heh, anything to pay tribute to Rich! I still suck at Illustrator pretty bad. Can you tell?

OK back on topic. As opposed to using a Profession skill, I prefer to send the Rogue into upscale gatherings and "earn" some coins to pay for those occasional living expenses. Sleight of Hand > Profession (Whatever) if you find the right place to use it :smallbiggrin:

Sleet
2008-01-04, 01:39 PM
Stormwrack makes profession (sailor) actually useful for in game mechanics, but it has little to do with how much money you make at sailing a ship.

I tend to house-rule all Profession skills that way; they measure how good you are at any activity vaguely related to the skill, or how much you know about stuff related to the skill, that isn't covered by other skills. I use Profession (gambler) as a base gambling skill, for instance; similarly, Profession (soldier) gives you the rough equivalent of bardic knowledge of military subjects. Profession (herbalist) gives you a chance to brew up minor healing potions, poisons, drugs (slip 'em a mickey!), etc. without any spellcasting ability.

Falsehope
2008-01-05, 12:43 AM
The only time i used the Profession skill is when i was DMing and my group were all shopkeepers in addition to their other classes. It may sound weird, but it was a lot of fun! Other then that, i would rather place the skill points into something more useful, even if it was crossclass,

NullAshton
2008-01-05, 02:12 AM
The mechanical reason would be to make it balanced. If some profession skills made more money than others, then some people would never take the lower paying professions.

And as has been said before, the fluff is that professional skills tell you how much knowledge in a certain job you have. High-paying jobs require more education than low-paying jobs.

The reason why everything is wisdom is that it, again, abstracts the knowledge and skill needed. Though for some of the more complex jobs, other skills would be more appropriate, such as Knowledge(Local) and Bluff for a lawyer.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-05, 03:55 AM
The mechanical reason would be to make it balanced. If some profession skills made more money than others, then some people would never take the lower paying professions.

That's a good point, but it also follows that if all professions make the same amount of money, people will only take the ones that are less work.

Aquillion
2008-01-05, 06:03 AM
The mechanical reason would be to make it balanced. If some profession skills made more money than others, then some people would never take the lower paying professions.Given the high amount of money that an adventurer makes, I think the only reason a player is likely to take any profession is if it's a prerequisite to something. Given that, the pay doesn't really matter (as long as you don't actually allow "profession (Emperor)" or whatever. Hmm, or "profession (Adventurer)", which... well, how would that work?)


And as has been said before, the fluff is that professional skills tell you how much knowledge in a certain job you have. High-paying jobs require more education than low-paying jobs.This still doesn't make sense, though. To get lots of points in a skill, you need a lot of levels. If we go by the "low-skill bankers are only clerks, high-skilled ones are the managers and owners", that means that it is impossible to be the manager of a bank or the head lawyer on a law firm without also being physically tough and good at fighting (even as a commoner, a 7th or 8th level bank manager would be able to beat up most city guards without breaking a sweat.)

...of course, this is a broader problem with the skill system, really. Craft and perform have the same problems; you can't be a good musician or craft anything worthwhile in decent time without also being fairly good at fighting.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-05, 05:27 PM
Given the high amount of money that an adventurer makes, I think the only reason a player is likely to take any profession is if it's a prerequisite to something. I agree, and think this is by design. Having mastered the creation of underpowered feats to boost the entry costs for prestige classes for feat-poor classes, WotC decided to make some largely useless skills to also penalize those with few skill points to spend.

It would be interesting to try to figure out which PrCs require the most skills for entry. Off the top of my head, I think Mystic Wanderer (a 3.0 PrC from Magic of Faerun) might qualify:

Alignment: Any nonlawful
Skills:
Alchemy 3 ranks [3.5 version: Craft (Alchemy)]
Diplomacy 8 ranks
Knowledge (Nature) 3 ranks
Perform 3 ranks
Profession (Herbalist) 3 ranks
Feats: Iron Will
Spellcasting: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells