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Admiral Squish
2008-01-03, 05:21 PM
Mice:

- Mice gain no ability modifiers.
- Small size
- Base land speed is 30 feet
- Mice gain an extra feat at first level.
- Base languages: Common. Bonus languages: Any
- Mice gain four bonus skill points at first level, and another one each level thereafter.
- Mice gain no natural attacks

Hares:

- Hares gain +2 charisma and -2 wisdom
- Medium size
- Base land speed is 40 feet
- Hares can kick powerfully with their hind legs, giving them a slam attack for 1d6 damage with 1 1/2 strength bonus to damage
- +1 natural armor bonus, and +1 dodge bonus, hares have thick fur, and are extremely spry.
- Base languages: Common. Bonus languages: Reptilian, Avian, Amphibian, Burrow.

Otters:

- Otters gain +2 strength, -2 intelligence
- Medium size
- Base land speed is 20 feet, swim speed 40 ft
- Otters gain weapon familiarity with otter double javelins
- Otters gain a +8 racial bonus on swim checks, and can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened.
- Base languages: Common, Otter silent. Bonus languages: Amphibian, Reptilian, Burrow.

Squirrels:

- Squirrels gain +2 dex, -2 con
- Small size
- Base land speed is 30 feet, climb speed 30
- Squirrels gain +2 on heal checks due to their extensive knowledge of nature
- Squirrels gain a +8 on climb checks, and can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened.
- Squirrels gain weapon proficiency with short bows.
- Base languages: Common. Bonus languages: Avian, Reptilian, Burrow

Hedgehogs:

- Hedgehogs gain +2 constitution, -2 dexterity
- Medium size
- Base land speed is 20 feet
- Spines: Any creature attacking a hedgehog with a light melee weapon or an unarmed strike takes 1d4 damage from spikes. A hedgehog may suppress this ability as a move action, and activate it as the same.
- +2 natural armor bonus
- Cannot wear normal armor, all armor for hedgehogs must be custom-made, and of at least masterwork quality.
-Hedgehogs gain Armor Familiarity with Hedgehog Spine Tips
- Base languages: Common. Bonus languages: Avian, Reptilian, Amphibian, Burrow.

Badgers:

- Badgers gain +8 Strength, -4 Dexterity, +6 Constitution, +4 Wisdom, +4 Charisma
- Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
- Space/reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
- A badger's base land speed is 30 feet, burrow speed 10 feet
- Scent, Low-light vision
- Racial Hit Dice: A badger begins with four levels of badger which provide 4d10 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +4, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
- Racial Skills: A badger's badger levels give it skill points equal to 7 x (4 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Craft, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival.
- Racial Feats: A badger's badger levels give it two feats.
- Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A badger is automatically proficient with simple weapons, and all two-handed martial weapons.
- +2 natural armor bonus.
- Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d8+strength).
- Automatic languages: Common, Burrow. Bonus languages: Avian, Reptilian, Amphibian.
- Level adjustment +2

Shrews:

- Shrews gain +2 dexterity, -2 strength
- Small size
- Base land speed is 20 feet
- Shrews gain a racial +4 on swim checks.
- Shrews gain a +2 on all survival checks on rivers or oceans.
- Base languages: Common. Bonus languages: Amphibian, Avian, Reptilian.

Moles:

- Moles gain +2 con, -2 charisma,
- Small size
- Base land speed is 30 feet, burrow 30 feet
- Moles gain a natural claw attack dealing 1d4 piercing or bludgeoning damage.
- Base languages: Burrow. Bonus languages: Amphibian, Reptilian, Common.
- Difficult speech: Moles have to spend twice as many skill points as another race to learn a new language. They can spend the normal amount, but take a -4 to charisma-based checks using that language.
- Darkvision 60 feet
- +4 to spot and search checks to notice unusual stonecutting.
- Spell-like abilities: Moles can cast Augury 1/day as a cleric of twice their character level, without the material component or focus. (Moi diggun’ claws be a-tinglin’)

--------
Hi! I'm back once more, with my newest Frankenstein-esque creation of numbers and stats. This time, I've turned my sights on the redwall bunch. I'm going to be adding to this, this is just the bare-bones stuff to start with. Once I get your opinions on their fairness and balance, I'll move deeper into fluff and support for these lovable critters.

A few questions I really need answered:
Are they balanced?
Level adjustments?
Accurately representing the books?
Are they good enough you'd want to play them?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-03, 06:41 PM
The first thing that strikes me is that mice are amazingly good - small size AND an int bonus AND bonus feats and skills as a human are very nifty.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-03, 08:40 PM
The first thing that strikes me is that mice are amazingly good - small size AND an int bonus AND bonus feats and skills as a human are very nifty.

There, I took away the skills as a human, and just gave them the bonus on knowledge checks. Better?

Nebo_
2008-01-03, 08:47 PM
Hares shouldn't have a Str penalty, they're always portrayed as fairly strong.
Badgers need a level adjustment, then maybe you can let up on the nerf stick on their stats. Moles and shrews have too many stat adjustments, they suffer from Whisper Gnome syndrome. I don't see why Hedgehogs have a Str bonus. Ditto on what Illiterate Scribe said.

Excuse my stream of thought.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-03, 09:20 PM
Hares shouldn't have a Str penalty, they're always portrayed as fairly strong.
Badgers need a level adjustment, then maybe you can let up on the nerf stick on their stats. Moles and shrews have too many stat adjustments, they suffer from Whisper Gnome syndrome. I don't see why Hedgehogs have a Str bonus. Ditto on what Illiterate Scribe said.

Excuse my stream of thought.

Appropriately fiddled.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-03, 10:00 PM
I've always wondered what the difference between stoats, ferrets, and rats were in Redwall. They all seem pretty much the same, with foxes and wildcats and pine martins with slight differences.

DJ Scrub
2008-01-03, 11:16 PM
Nice so far, but I must say that badgers should be much, much stronger and have a fat level adjustment. Even arranging it so that most marauding vermin do not have class levels, it is still clear that badgers have huge strength and constitution as well as some natural attack stats. Large size alone should be some LA anyway.

I suggest something more like this:

Badgers as characters
[Class-related fluff omitted, since you have not mentioned what sorts of classes you'll have. Presumably something like fighter, which would be the favored class here (or possibly barbarian), and of course a PrC for Badger Lord.]
--+8 Strength, -4 Dexterity, +6 Constitution, +4 Wisdom, +4 Charisma
--Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
--Space/reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
--A badger's base land speed is 30 feet. It also has a burrow speed of 10 feet.
--Scent, Low-light vision
--Racial Hit Dice: A badger begins with four levels of [whatever you're calling giant; I think this is appropriate because badgers seem to be different in kind from mice, etc., as well as from hares and such, which might be a version of monstrous humanoid or similar.] which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +4, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
--Racial Skills: A badger's [giant] levels give it skill points equal to [whatever you decide; if you keep it the same it's 7 x (2 + Int modifier)]. Its class skills are Craft, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival.
--Racial Feats: A badger's [giant] levels give it two feats.
--Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A badger is automatically proficient with simple weapons.
--+4 natural armor bonus.
--Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4).
--Automatic languages: Common, Badger. Bonus languages: Hare, Otter, Hedgehog, Shrew, Mole (nonmole).
--Level adjustment +4

13_CBS
2008-01-04, 12:01 AM
Two things:

Are badgers in the book that clumsy? They were big, sure, and they weren't exactly field daisies, but I don't recall them being particularly clumsy either.

Also, I'm wondering if Otters should have a reduction in Intelligence rather than Wisdom.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-04, 12:07 AM
Nice so far, but I must say that badgers should be much, much stronger and have a fat level adjustment. Even arranging it so that most marauding vermin do not have class levels, it is still clear that badgers have huge strength and constitution as well as some natural attack stats. Large size alone should be some LA anyway.

I suggest something more like this:
*snip*

Taken under advisement. Well, taken under a lot of advisement. Okay, so I copy/pasted and diddled with a few scores... Still, very nice of you to do so. Thanks for your help!

Admiral Squish
2008-01-04, 12:10 AM
Two things:

Are badgers in the book that clumsy? They were big, sure, and they weren't exactly field daisies, but I don't recall them being particularly clumsy either.

Also, I'm wondering if Otters should have a reduction in Intelligence rather than Wisdom.

Badgers aren't clumsy, but they're BIG. When you have fingers the size of wrists, you start to find fine manipulation is a tad beyond you.

They're clever, but a bit too playful for their own good. I thought wisdom was a more accurate place to put the penalty.

Balkash
2008-01-04, 12:15 AM
- Hares should have weapon proficiency in something
- I agree, Otters should take a penalty to INT not WIS, they usually are very worldly
- Should squirrels get bow proficiency?
- I might tone down the badger a little bit more. maybe lay off the charisma to +2, because I cant remember them being all that nice, the old ones could actually be grumy, but otherwise fine.

13_CBS
2008-01-04, 12:23 AM
Badgers aren't clumsy, but they're BIG. When you have fingers the size of wrists, you start to find fine manipulation is a tad beyond you.

They're clever, but a bit too playful for their own good. I thought wisdom was a more accurate place to put the penalty.

On badgers: true, but a -4 to Dex when they're just big and have big paws?

On otters: that's also true, but IIRC it never got in the way of fighting. As the poster above said, they're quite worldly.

DJ Scrub
2008-01-04, 12:28 AM
If the badger's ability scores go down any more than they already are, it will not be a +4 mod anymore. It's already on the weak side for an 8-level race. I think the charisma is very appropriate; it's not going to be used on Diplomacy checks for the most part, but on Intimidate checks and Cha-based class features. It's a kind of "mental toughness" thing going on there. I feel quite certain that a racial feat called Bloodwrath will involve a Cha-based check of some kind.

-4 Dex is a balance thing, and it seems reasonably appropriate to me. Badgers are slow for the most part, relying on power, and while Lonna Bowstripe certainly had a high Dex, he was an exception and clearly had quite a few class levels besides. You can try to nitpick every number in the fluff, but if you take a step back, I think the stats as currently written will create an accurate portrayal of the Redwall badger in gameplay.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-04, 12:34 AM
I don't know how one would going adding proficiencies racially like that. Especially for things as poorly-placed as bows. They're martial weapons, but you can't just give them martial weapon proficiency, it just doesn't work like that.

Well, yeah, older and leader otters tend to be worldly, but a penalty to int just doesn't explain how they've come up with all those inventive methods of home defense. Remember, these stats are for otter adults, not otter middle-agers.

Yes, Badger's aren't very polite, much of the time, but they still have a sort of natural leadership I was hoping to express with the charisma.

Draz74
2008-01-04, 12:45 AM
Let's see. Well, one minor problem is that there are traits that all races could have, just because they're animals. +1 Natural Armor, Scent, and Low-Light Vision. So you might want to "nerf everything equally" by leaving those traits off unless the animal is better at one of them than all the other animals. The good thing about balancing this setting is going to be that most of the "monsters" will be NPCs.

I bet you could get away with a Badger being impressive enough without a +4 LA. No RHD needed, either. I think DJ Scrub wasn't thinking enough about the kindly badger mothers, or Sunflash the Mace when he was low-level. Low-level badger characters aren't that amazing in the books. LA +1 or +2 should be plenty. But the Badger should have a (small) LA, or else his racial features just won't be impressive enough. Let's see ... I recommend:

Badger
Large Size
+4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis
Speed 30, burrow 10 (you'll have to make sure burrow rules are limited so this isn't overpowered)
Natural Weapons: Claw/Claw (1d6+Str damage)
Natural Armor +1
+2 Craft, +2 Knowledge (History)
LA +2
Some of the badger characters obviously have a high Charisma, and it should be a requirement for some of their cool racial feats; but I don't see it as an every-Badger bonus.

Totally agree that Otters should have their Wis penalty changed to Int. Otters were portrayed (some of them) as fairly crafty Rangers, excellent at Survival (Track)/Spot/Listen. On the other hand, they were about the most anti-book-lore good race. Hares are a much better example of a Wis penalty.

I don't remember mice being so ... sage-like. Since when are all of them these frail, Knowledgable types? I wonder if, to go with their other human-like traits (and the Bonus Feat is totally appropriate IMHO), they should have no stat adjustments at all. With that caveat, I suppose the +1 Knowledge would be OK (if it's not coupled with a +2 Int).

Did the books ever portray the common animals actually having racial languages? I guess you could count Mole as a separate language. But other than that, it seemed like most of the animals just had their own dialects, which seem more like flavor than mechanics. Two average Hares couldn't hold a secret conversation in front of an average Mouse just by using their racial slang. The mouse would only be confused by 10% of what they said. It seems like (besides moles) only more barbaric creatures like reptiles, amphibians, or primitive squirrel tribes actually had different languages.

Squirrels need a bit more buffing; Climb speed isn't everything. Shortbow proficiency would totally be appropriate. (Remember, though, that the Longbow is an exotic weapon in Redwall, rarely heard of except among hares.) I'd think about making their racial penalty Strength instead of Constitution. Heal bonus due to an extensive knowledge of nature makes no sense. Also, I picture them as Small rather than Medium.

Hedgehogs: As-written, there is no reason for them ever to repress the "Spines" ability. If that ability is meant to represent them curling up in a ball, it should make it so they can't do anything else while using it. Also, if it is always-active, then making it work vs. all melee attacks (not just unarmed & natural weapons) is ridiculous.

Shrews: if they have a Swim speed, then their Swim bonus should be +8. It's just the way Swim (and Climb) speeds work. You could keep the bonus at +4 and just take away the Swim Speed if you want, though. Also, minor nitpick: they should get the Survival bonus on rivers too.

Hmmm ... nothing about how Shrews and Hares have to eat way more than the other races of their sizes? :smallamused:

Moles: Obviously they should be good at digging. But Burrow speeds are very powerful even if they're very small, and a burrow speed faster than normal movement is crazy. Maybe Burrow 20? (Still faster than a badger.)

Edit: Oh yeah. Like I posted on the d20 Forum:
This could be helpful. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-11753.html)

Admiral Squish
2008-01-04, 01:27 AM
Let's see. Well, one minor problem is that there are traits that all races could have, just because they're animals. +1 Natural Armor, Scent, and Low-Light Vision. So you might want to "nerf everything equally" by leaving those traits off unless the animal is better at one of them than all the other animals. The good thing about balancing this setting is going to be that most of the "monsters" will be NPCs.

I bet you could get away with a Badger being impressive enough without a +4 LA. No RHD needed, either. I think DJ Scrub wasn't thinking enough about the kindly badger mothers, or Sunflash the Mace when he was low-level. Low-level badger characters aren't that amazing in the books. LA +1 or +2 should be plenty. But the Badger should have a (small) LA, or else his racial features just won't be impressive enough. Let's see ... I recommend:

Some of the badger characters obviously have a high Charisma, and it should be a requirement for some of their cool racial feats; but I don't see it as an every-Badger bonus.

Totally agree that Otters should have their Wis penalty changed to Int. Otters were portrayed (some of them) as fairly crafty Rangers, excellent at Survival (Track)/Spot/Listen. On the other hand, they were about the most anti-book-lore good race. Hares are a much better example of a Wis penalty.

I don't remember mice being so ... sage-like. Since when are all of them these frail, Knowledgable types? I wonder if, to go with their other human-like traits (and the Bonus Feat is totally appropriate IMHO), they should have no stat adjustments at all. With that caveat, I suppose the +1 Knowledge would be OK (if it's not coupled with a +2 Int).

Did the books ever portray the common animals actually having racial languages? I guess you could count Mole as a separate language. But other than that, it seemed like most of the animals just had their own dialects, which seem more like flavor than mechanics. Two average Hares couldn't hold a secret conversation in front of an average Mouse just by using their racial slang. The mouse would only be confused by 10% of what they said. It seems like (besides moles) only more barbaric creatures like reptiles, amphibians, or primitive squirrel tribes actually had different languages.

Squirrels need a bit more buffing; Climb speed isn't everything. Shortbow proficiency would totally be appropriate. (Remember, though, that the Longbow is an exotic weapon in Redwall, rarely heard of except among hares.) I'd think about making their racial penalty Strength instead of Constitution. Heal bonus due to an extensive knowledge of nature makes no sense. Also, I picture them as Small rather than Medium.

Hedgehogs: As-written, there is no reason for them ever to repress the "Spines" ability. If that ability is meant to represent them curling up in a ball, it should make it so they can't do anything else while using it. Also, if it is always-active, then making it work vs. all melee attacks (not just unarmed & natural weapons) is ridiculous.

Shrews: if they have a Swim speed, then their Swim bonus should be +8. It's just the way Swim (and Climb) speeds work. You could keep the bonus at +4 and just take away the Swim Speed if you want, though. Also, minor nitpick: they should get the Survival bonus on rivers too.

Hmmm ... nothing about how Shrews and Hares have to eat way more than the other races of their sizes? :smallamused:

Moles: Obviously they should be good at digging. But Burrow speeds are very powerful even if they're very small, and a burrow speed faster than normal movement is crazy. Maybe Burrow 20? (Still faster than a badger.)

Edit: Oh yeah. Like I posted on the d20 Forum:
This could be helpful. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-11753.html)

Hmm... You have a point on the badger issue, but I think that's a bit far. Maybe a compromise between the two?

On mice, I think it's accurate, since basically the only major mouse settlement is a giant library/monastery.

No, they didn't seem to have different languages but they all hadd different accents, So One would assume they're learning into common and out of another language.

On squirrels, I'm not sure on the proficiency. the more I think about it, the more I think that it should probably be a class thing. After all, squirrel commoners aren't expert marksmen. Maybe a bonus to ranged attack rolls. Also, look at a squirrel. About as big as, say, your forearm. Now think how big a mouse is. Realistically, mice would be tiny, but that's pushing it.


The spines ability made sense at the time like this: Spines on a hedgehog are about an inch long. That means that, proportionally, they'd be close enough to prod the hand holding a short sword, or an axe, if it was used in any sort of way that would do more than simply graze the creature. Maybe restrict it to light or one-handed weapons, since they tend to be shorter? The repress ability was designed more towards polite company, when one expects to be hugged or in close proximity to others. Hedgehogs in the book could raise or lower their spines like the heckles on a cat. I do need to make a rolling ability.

No, shrews tended to be beasts of the seas. The river ones were only when they ran out of ship and down on their luck.

Definitely gotta fiddle with moles, then...

JackMage666
2008-01-04, 03:59 AM
Wow, noone would ever play a badger... The LA and the racial HD put together are a huge turnoff. Even as is up there, you could probably make it a +2 LA.

Mathias_Tanavar
2008-01-04, 08:09 AM
Hedgehogs and Squirrels should be small sized...

Squirrels definitly, as (If the sword of Martin is a small Longsword) It is the correct size for bothe squirrels and Mice, but otters use it as a knife

Draz74
2008-01-04, 01:06 PM
Hmm... You have a point on the badger issue, but I think that's a bit far. Maybe a compromise between the two?

Sure. Personally, I just hate the mechanics of Racial Hit Dice. However, if you don't feel the same way, I think it would be pretty reasonable to use the stats I wrote for Badgers, but give them 4 RHD. Then lower their LA to +1. So the lowest-ECL Badger character would be ECL 5. (Whereas mine was ECL 3, and the other one was ECL 8.) Maybe if you do this, you could give them their +2 Charisma back too.


On mice, I think it's accurate, since basically the only major mouse settlement is a giant library/monastery.

Monastery, yes. But, while Redwall had a decent library (a rare thing in this world), that never seemed to be its main focus to me. Marauding would-be conquerers didn't go, "Let's go hit that Redwall place, because I need tons of information from historical documents." They had other reasons.


On squirrels, I'm not sure on the proficiency. the more I think about it, the more I think that it should probably be a class thing. After all, squirrel commoners aren't expert marksmen. Maybe a bonus to ranged attack rolls.

Commoner expert marksmen, no. But that's because they have BAB +0 :smalltongue:, not because they're nonproficient IMHO. After all, there is a vast gulf between being proficient with a weapon, and being good with a weapon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) Still, I guess a bonus to ranged attacks would work OK too. Kinda bland since they already get a Dex bonus, though.


Also, look at a squirrel. About as big as, say, your forearm. Now think how big a mouse is. Realistically, mice would be tiny, but that's pushing it.

I don't know what species of squirrel you're looking at, but judging by the ones that infest my hometown in large numbers ... no. If a squirrel is as big as my forearm with its tail included, it's a pretty big squirrel. Without the tail, no chance. (I'm 6'1" - tall, but not some kind of giant.)

"Realistically," foxes and otters are not much smaller than badgers. All of which are much bigger than hares. Which are much bigger than squirrels. Which are much bigger than mice. So Mice = Tiny, Squirrels = Small, Hares = Medium, Otters = Large, Badgers = Large With Powerful Build would be a valid way to go, based on more realistic sizes.

Fortunately for those of us who don't want to deal with such a wide variety of PC sizes, though, the books seem to describe these animals' scale in a not-quite-so-realistic way. Where Otters, Foxes, and Hares all seem to be about the same "Medium" size. In this scale, if you're keeping to it, I'd definitely still say Small Squirrels. Oh, and the point from Mathias_Tanavar about how a squirrel used Martin's sword just fine is excellent support for this opinion. :smallsmile:


The spines ability made sense at the time like this: Spines on a hedgehog are about an inch long. That means that, proportionally, they'd be close enough to prod the hand holding a short sword, or an axe, if it was used in any sort of way that would do more than simply graze the creature. Maybe restrict it to light or one-handed weapons, since they tend to be shorter? The repress ability was designed more towards polite company, when one expects to be hugged or in close proximity to others. Hedgehogs in the book could raise or lower their spines like the heckles on a cat. I do need to make a rolling ability.

Restricted to light weapons works. Rolling up could be a sweet racial feat, I guess.


No, shrews tended to be beasts of the seas. The river ones were only when they ran out of ship and down on their luck.

Hmmm, I must have just read the books about river shrews more than the other books. It's been a while.

Stycotl
2008-01-04, 01:19 PM
never read redwall myself, so i am not too sure about its fluff, but why is the badger considered a giant?

aren't they all just large animals? would it not make more sense to keep them as animal type, or even magical animal type for the extra cool stuff?

i admit i am exposing my ignorance to the redwall theme, but i am curious.

aaron out.

Lemur
2008-01-04, 01:25 PM
One thing that comes out at me is that all the races have some sort of stat adjustment. I'm not sure this is necessary. It's been a while since I've read the books, but I'm not sure why mice would have an int bonus, or otters would have a wis penalty, for example. But that's just an opinion.

The languages thing doesn't really make sense to me though. I don't recall the animals using different languages, whether based on species or anything else (although like I said, it has been a while). Even molespeech was just a heavily accented dialect. However, non-mammal creatures did have tendencies not to speak, or have communication problems, so simplifying the languages to something like Common, Avian, Reptillian, and Amphibian makes more sense to me. Since this results in much less languages than normal D&D, it would be better to just scrap bonus languages from intelligence, and just have extra language acquisition come from skill point expenditure. If you want more languages, then I'd do it by location, rather than species, such as subterranian/undercommon, or various far-off lands.

Learnedguy
2008-01-04, 01:36 PM
Pretty nice:smallamused:

A few things though:
Personal experiences has thought me that mice usually are faster than Hedgehogs. Fact is that mice are speedy buggers, and they jump like the devil!
So I'd at least reduce the hedgehogs movementspeed, possibly raise the mice movement speed, or give them dash (that's the feat that gives you a +5 bonus to movement, right?) as a bonus feet.

Also, I'd probably push around that charisma the badger got (switch wisdom's and charisma's places I think. All the badgers seem to be very wise, regardless of age usually).

Darkkwalker
2008-01-04, 01:41 PM
Um...no settlement besides Redwall?
Luke's Caves.
Noon Vale.
And there were shrews that lived austensibly on the rivers. Who travelled on logs. Why else would their cheiftans be called logalogs?
And what about pygmy shrews?
In the books/tv show, squirrels were the same size as mice and hedgehogs. Hares were larger than all three and the same size as Otters. Cats and Badgers are larger than otters and hares but are of equal size to each other.
Foxes, stoats, ferrets, weasels, rats, all same size. Rats are pushing it though.
Stoats, ferrets, weasels= all pretty much weasel like in form. Not sure how they differ otherwise. Think stoats are huskier.
Lizards range in size. but are mice and hare sized.
Frogs are mostly hare size.
Eagles, freaking huge. Speak in Scottish dialect.

Also, Mice are the humans of the series. nothing really special about them. So I'd take away the int and con adjustments as well as the knowledge thing. The knowledge bonus gone because they still have to go and find the knowledge in the library/from an elder/the abbot/abbess.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-04, 03:54 PM
Okay, I fixed the mole burrow speed, twiddled the badger scores, which also got their own kind of racial level, shrunk the squirrels, fixed the spike ability, upped hare's attack and made mice mini-humans. Anything else?

Abjurer
2008-01-04, 04:00 PM
Haha! Eulalia!
Those books were awesome.

And a ottrish javelin is a masterwork wooden javelin that you can use in melee with no penalty. At least, that's how I see them.

You should do the evil animals too. Cats, rats, ferrets...

JellyPooga
2008-01-04, 04:12 PM
I would personally give Otters (and possibly Hares) a Strength bonus...they were always portrayed as being much stronger than the rest (though whether that was due to individual characters or not, I'm not entirely sure)...

lordbrocktree
2008-01-04, 04:19 PM
I like it so far, looking forward to the end result


Eulaliaaaaaaaaaa!

FireSpark
2008-01-04, 04:22 PM
I don't know what species of squirrel you're looking at, but judging by the ones that infest my hometown in large numbers ... no. If a squirrel is as big as my forearm with its tail included, it's a pretty big squirrel. Without the tail, no chance. (I'm 6'1" - tall, but not some kind of giant.)

Well, you've obviously never been to Texas. My neighborhood is crawling with Fox Squirrels, and those are some big critters. The smaller ones are usualll only as long as your forearm, but the really big ones can be over 2 feet long, before you include the tail. From nose to tail tip, our squirrels average about 2 1/2 feet to 3 feet in length.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f3/Squirrel_on_fence.jpg/200px-Squirrel_on_fence.jpg

So I'm with Admiral Squish on this point of contention.

Darkkwalker
2008-01-04, 04:37 PM
You have to remember though. The author lives in Britain. So animals are based upon species indiginous to that region. Mostly.

FireSpark
2008-01-04, 05:00 PM
You have to remember though. The author lives in Britain. So animals are based upon species indiginous to that region. Mostly.

Actually, I've never heard of the series, books, animated, or otherwise. I was just chiming in that a squirrel as big as your forearm is nothing unusual. But yes, English squirrels are about half the size (at best) of most of their North American counterparts.

They're still much bigger than mice though.

Fiery Diamond
2008-01-04, 05:17 PM
So, haven't actually read all the posts about mechanics yet. (emphasis on yet). I would like to point out to those nitpicking about size of creatures in relation to real life that in the books, either as stated or implied, the sizes do not correspond to the real life sizes in relation to each other. I am an American-I wasn't even aware there was a movie (is it in Britain?). Basically, in the books, all the animals except the stoats, foxes, ferrets, weasels, hares, cats, badgers, otters, and non-mammals are approximately the same size. The stoats, ferrets, weasels, hares, foxes, and otters approximated equivalent size, and were larger than the previous creatures. The cats and badgers were even bigger, and were fairly close in size, with badgers probably slightly larger. Basically, three size groups for the mammals in the ways I just said. It doesn't match real life.

But with respect to real life--I'm a college student; until I came to college, I had never seen a fox squirrel. When I first saw one, I thought "Whoa, that sucker is HUGE!!!" One should never think of squirrel size based on fox squirrels.

Falconer
2008-01-04, 05:22 PM
Oh, I would looove to see some of the villains statted out. Asmodeus Poisonteeth, anyone?


(Note: I would gladly do something like that myself, but I'm not very familiar with D&D :smallredface: )

Draz74
2008-01-04, 06:36 PM
Okay, I fixed the mole burrow speed, twiddled the badger scores, which also got their own kind of racial level, shrunk the squirrels, fixed the spike ability, upped hare's attack and made mice mini-humans. Anything else?

Looking better.

Squirrels still look a little weak. And +2 Survival makes more sense than +2 Heal.

I still probably wouldn't play your Badger (unless the Badger Lord PrC is just that sweet). Racial hit dice really stink. I mean, look at it this way: your Badger levels are basically like Fighter levels, only with 1 less HP per level and no bonus feats. Fine, so let's count the +2 Con bonus as an extra HP each level, and count Scent, Natural Armor, and Claw Attacks as a Bonus Feat each. Leave out +2 Str/-2 Dex because they cancel each other out, and Low-Light Vision because it's such a minor feature. So, leaving all those features out, we have a race that looks like this:

+4 Str, +2 Wis, +2 Cha; Fort Save +1; Large Size; Burrow 10 feet; LA +2.

Well, a +8 gain in abilities, a burrow speed, and Large Size are indeed worth LA +2. So I guess dropping him to LA +1 would be overpowered. But at the same time ... you're saying "You can't play this guy in a low-level campaign, and when you can play him, your first for levels have to be taken in one of the worst classes (Fighter)."

So I'd say either drop the RHD to 2 or 3, or improve them (d10 Hit Die and 4+Int skill points with some more class skills, perhaps). Then I'd play a badger.

Shrews look a little weak. Maybe some ability that represents fiery tempers or good teamwork?

Jothki
2008-01-04, 07:18 PM
With Mice set at Small, you might be able to get away with Badgers being Medium with Powerful Build.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-04, 07:34 PM
With Mice set at Small, you might be able to get away with Badgers being Medium with Powerful Build.

Their scores are already getting threateningly close to Goliaths.

Draz74
2008-01-04, 07:39 PM
With Mice set at Small, you might be able to get away with Badgers being Medium with Powerful Build.

Nah. Battles in the books are described as more than eight vermin surrounding a badger lord and pounding on him. Badgers should have the 10' space on the grid, and that goes with having full Large Size. Yay for Reach!

DJ Scrub
2008-01-04, 08:59 PM
Well, I mean, you're really arguing two points here: characteristics to make them playable and characteristics to capture the books accurately. The fact is, even Constance from the first book was more than a match for several vermin, despite not being a "warrior" in the manner of Badger Lord characters and such. This calls for substantial racial abilities and hit dice.

The argument about a badger sucking is fair. You may have noticed that monster classes, as a rule, suck. The system is designed to discourage players from playing creatures far superior to humans physically. Racial hit dice and the suckiness they entail is just a barrier to make ogres, centaurs, etc. a weaker option than humans and their relatives. A rare few monster classes are good in a few builds, but for the most part mind flayers with class levels are going to be NPCs. Badgers smash face racially, so they aren't going to be attractive as PCs.

Of course, you could always say that Redwall is not D&D and why not fix that. It's simply a matter of making a monster class "overpowered" by D&D standards by ramping the LA way down, making a few levels of badger into something attractive.

I do still feel strongly that badgers should not have the universe's equivalent of the type "humanoid." They are as different from the mouse/mole/shrew/vole/etc. group as, for example, ogres are from humans in D&D. It's just good flavor. And besides, if you name the type "badger," that's a good way to restrict the Badger Lord PrC without limiting the ability to distinguish between subgroups of badgers by making it "Race: any badger."

As for the stats, badgers seem to be the strongest creatures in the Redwall universe and I used +8 for that reason. That puts them on par with, for example, the dexterity of a pixie. Ogres have +10 strength. Boar the Fighter was probably level 20, which if he was 18 base and spent his levels on it (likely), would give him a Str of 31, or the ability to just barely lift a load of around 1.5 tons. This is in line with his difficulty lifting the boulder larger than was. I really think it should go back up.

Make that stats more aggressive (+8 Str, -4 Dex, +6 Con, +4 Wis, +4 Cha), leave the level adjustment at +2, fix the racial skills (you deleted Survival, which I assume was a mistake), and I think you'll have a 6-level dip that players would want to take. I think that this is much more accurate to the books than simply whittling off abilities until you get it down to +1 with only a couple of hit dice, because that's just not how they are portrayed.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-04, 09:40 PM
Languages.

I agree with Lemur's post on languages.

They are all speaking the same language, with heavy accents. And you do not need a different language to get an accent. Compare a texan accent and a british accent.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-04, 10:03 PM
Languages: Common, Amphibian, Reptilian, Avian, Otter silent, and Burrow.

I also RE-RE-RE-fiddled the badgers, added bows to the squirrels, and tried several unsuccessful things with the hares before just leaving them alone.

DJ Scrub
2008-01-04, 10:32 PM
As written, hares are too strong for +0. I think that you should pump them a bit more and give them a +1. One obvious addition would be Scent, as hares often smell food from great distances. I would also suggest a racial bonus on Perform checks. You might even ramp the overall power up a bit extra and add the hilarious drawback of requiring double rations.

Alignment restrictions? It's pretty hard and fast in the books that if you meet a mouse on the road and he asks to borrow $1000, he's good for it and you can give it without fear, while if you pass a rat in the road, draw your sword. There are less than 5 exceptions to this in all the books I know, which is most.

Question: what role are you planning to give magic? D&D classes become very problematic when you remove spellcasting classes, yet magic is very rare in Redwall. I only know of a few supernatural phenomena off the top of my head:

-Bloodwrath (racial feat)
-Martin's Sword (artifact)
-Seers (specialized prestige, or possibly a LA template)
-The "hero power," where good characters appear to grow larger and strike fear into the hearts of enemies (this is probably feat based, or else a class feature shared by a number of classes like sneak attack, mettle, trapfinding, etc. are in D&D)
-Ghost visions, like when Martin and occassionally some other characters appear to living creatures to offer guidance (probably a power of a template assigned to some dead characters, a la D&D's Risen Martyr PrC)

There may be a few other odds and ends around, like some of the mysteries surrounding Salamandastron and such, but that's it as far as major recurring items. Are you planning to make a couple of new classes based on these and hope the absence of spellcasters doesn't hurt? Introduce full D&D magic to Redwall? You could just go with all new base classes, keeping the fighter, barbarian, monk, rogue, maybe scout, but building most of the rest from the ground up.

A quick note about Martin's sword: it is very large for a one-handed sword for a mouse. Otters wield it without awkwardness in several books (e.g. Bragoon in Loamhedge). I think that it is a small bastard sword which has, among its artifact powers, the ability to grant EWP to any wielder it wishes (obviously being an intelligent weapon) as long as it wishes. The Champion of Redwall PrC also obviously gains that feat automatically.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-04, 11:25 PM
Alright, I'll try that.

No alignment restrictions, I think this opens all sorts of interesting possibilities for interesting backgrounds and such.

Well, I could either try to completely and utterly revamp the system, or just let loose phenomenal cosmic powers and see what happens. From a DM's perspective, two would both be simpler and more fun to watch. However, the spirit of the game demands I take options one. However, I still don't really have to listen to it, and I'm vaguely lazy. It's a rather sticky wicket.

I definitely have to get started on racial feats, special weapons, PrCs, maybe spells, and the vermin, of course.

Nada Rakshasa
2008-01-04, 11:58 PM
Shrews look a little weak. Maybe some ability that represents fiery tempers or good teamwork?

Perhaps Swarm Fighting (Complete Warrior/Races of Faerun) as a racial bonus feat?

Balkash
2008-01-05, 12:41 AM
Well for magic, I'd think you would play Redwall as an EXTREMELY low magic campaign. A very few artifacts, one or two supernatural occurances, that should be enough. Honestly, take Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, the magic side of Bard, Druid, the magic side of Ranger out, plus nix the psionics, and you've got all the classes.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-05, 01:10 AM
That leaves me with a fighter, a nerfed bard, a rogue, a monk, and a nerfed ranger. Two good classes of five. That's not enough to run a campaign off. There's be no variation. You'd be a fighter, or a rogue, and that's about it, because they can do everything the ranger and monk can, and better. The bard might be barely playable, at best.

Steelion
2008-01-05, 01:37 AM
That's... about all there were in the books. They either used melee weapons or bows (or slings).

Alleine
2008-01-05, 01:54 AM
It shouldn't be difficult to add in clerics of some sort. Especially diviners/healers. Healers would be extremely useful in a predominately fighter world. There might need to be a few tweaks, making it more nature oriented, using poultices and herbs instead of "oh, I heal you" *zap*

Diviners would be useful NPCs, giving valuable(but limited) information on the BBEG, wasn't there anyone like that in the books? They wouldn't make bad PCs either. Doing more for the party in ways of gathering details, maybe having insight buffs to cast. Unfortunately, I've never played a real full-casting class other than psion which isn't the same thing, so my help is limited. And I think casters should be definitely nerfed, or made to be extremely specialized while still useful.

I suggest you stick to core only, at first. Adding anything else in, while possibly appropriate, could just complicate things needlessly.
Now I need to go re-read the books. After that, maybe I'll be better with ideas.

DJ Scrub
2008-01-05, 02:06 AM
Scout, swashbuckler, there are a few appropriate non-core classes. Also, a number of extant prestiges will port just fine.

You can also attempt to repair lost elements of ranger and bard. Give bard the Bardic Knack feature from the PHB II and let them pick a bonus music feat at first level and at every multiple of 4 (off a list including those from the PHB, Complete Scoundrel, etc.) That's just one approach.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-05, 02:32 AM
It just doesn't feel like D&D at that point, does it? Well, actually, it does, but stilll.

I think I'd like to see Redwall with arcane casters. Maybe magic is suddenly discovered in the realm? That would make some interesting plot points.

DJ Scrub
2008-01-05, 02:36 AM
Fix it in the fluff. Use one of the shaman-esque base casters and change the flavor to be like getting in touch with the spiritual power that drives seers, Salamandastron's magic, etc.

Draz74
2008-01-06, 02:35 AM
Swarmfighting would be pretty appropriate for Shrews, yes. Although including a non-Core feat as part of a Race is unfortunate. Maybe just modify the Swarmfighting feat slightly and make it a Special Racial Ability rather than a Racial Bonus Feat.

As far as the Hares looking too powerful, I think they're OK, but maybe I'm biased because they are my favorites and I would want to play one (without LA) if I ever played a Redwall campaign. :smallsmile: Although if you do go with the "buff them up slightly and make them LA +1" option, they really could use a Jump skill bonus.

I still don't like your Badger. It now looks balanced ... not too weak for its ECL 6. But still ... I don't like the large Dex penalty (the difficulties of Dexterous activities when you're big are already included in the -1 attack, -1 AC penalties IMHO). I don't like that you have to be ECL 6 to be a badger. Badgers just didn't seem that powerful when I read the books. (The high-level badgers did, of course. But not the low-level ones.) I don't like how badgers, to be decent, basically have to be melee types. I would want the option of playing a badger healer, or even branching out from in-book archetypes and being a Badger Ranger or something. I don't remember Constance well, but the badger mother in Mossflower ("Bella," right?), for example, was certainly no Level 1 Commoner. She was like a Level 3 Healer or so. And while tough and strong compared to smaller races, she wasn't exactly a melee monster. Heck, Mara even would have a level or two in Fighter, and she still wasn't "all that" in melee.

Oh well.

As far as other campaign details go ...

I think alignment restrictions on races would be much more faithful to the books, but I'd rather play without them. So I'm ambivalent.

As far as class selection goes, I think to do a proper job, you'll really have to homebrew up a collection of classes from scratch, unfortunately. I agree, though, that some kind of Seer should probably be the only base spellcaster class. (Shaman could be a PrC with minor spellcasting.) Seer, Commoner, Expert, Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian*, Monk*, Healer*, Ranger, Swashbuckler, Marshal ... that's a decent selection of base classes. Bard doesn't seem to fit into Redwall well; instead, it seems like there could be a few Feats that allow extraordinary results based on Perform checks.

* These classes would be very different from what they look like in 3e. Rage is more of a Badger feature (through Racial Feats, and improved by the Badger Lord PrC); Barbarian would look more like the NPC Warrior class (but with better skills or something) and be used mainly for vermin or reptiles. Monk would be more of a Knowledge-based class than a martial artist. Probably more of an NPC class than a PC class, although it should get cool enough features that a PC could dip a couple levels in it without getting too weak. Healer would not be a spellcaster. It would be kinda like a Cleric (i.e. decent at fighting, though not as good as a Full-BAB class) with no spellcasting, but with better Skills and some class abilities that let it do useful things with Heal checks.

Maybe the Truenamer from Tome of Magic could be an appropriate template from which to design Redwall spellcasters.

This next suggestion will be controversial.

Like most other attempts to convert fantasy literature into D&D, I think Redwall would be much better-represented as an E6 D&D campaign. Boar the Fighter was not Level 20. Level 20 characters pull off tasks that are impossible in the real world with their hands tied behind their back and their eyes blindfolded, even if they're not casters. Level 20 characters have oodles and mountains of magic items to buff them up. Yet, Boar the Fighter was about the mightiest hero in the world (at his time). E6 represents this great. Boar was Level 6, with a lot of "Epic Feats." Martin eventually got to Level 6, too, with at least a few Epic Feats. Redwall just doesn't have the full scale of power levels that standard D&D covers.

... my picturing of Redwall as an E6 campaign probably influences my opinion of appropriate Badger power. Not on purpose, but ... yeah.

DJ Scrub
2008-01-06, 05:22 PM
Swarmfighting as a bonus feat seems fine for shrews.

I am not 100% behind making hares a +1 race, as they are somewhat "default" and should probably be kept at +0 as a primary race along with the other good guy animals. Most hares in the books are quite powerful, but it seems that most of the prominent hares are supposed to be quite exceptional. Slagar said that Basil was the greatest tracker in all of Mossflower, for example, and Long Patrol hares have lots of class levels.

I think that badger as listed in the OP is pretty much correct (and I endorse the decision to make "monstrous" races playable) for normal D&D. Of course, the revisions you suggest are not without merit and would certainly call for changes in all listed races. I'm not sufficiently familiar with those systems to offer much advice, though.

@Squish
How are those classes coming? Would you like some ideas posted, or do you have something coming online?

Admiral Squish
2008-01-06, 05:41 PM
For class ideas, I have this:

Base classes:
Ranger
Fighter
Trickster
Seer
Shaman
Barbarian
Knight
Skirmisher
Thief

PrC's:
Badger lord
Long Patrol Hare
Champion
Skipper of the Otters
Logalog
Foremole

Racial feats:
Curl
-Rolling spines
Bloodwrath
Fast swimmer
Teamwork
Deep digger
Climbing acrobat
Redwall's knowledge


How's that looking? I have to make most of this from the ground up, so it's going to be a while before any of it's actually done.

DJ Scrub
2008-01-06, 06:26 PM
Not all of those feats should be racial. Like Deep Digger could just require a burrow speed, Fast Swimmer a swim speed, etc.

I think that Seer should be a level-adjusted template, since it's a talent rather than a skill. The Seer class could be a PrC with prerequisites of having the template and probably some skill ranks or feats, like an "Improved Second Sight" or something.

I think that your base class list looks reasonable, but could you do a couple sentences on what you see each one being? I'm particularly interested in which class will have music abilities, since there is no bard on your list. Is Boorab a trickster?

Some more PrC options will of course be needed (I know your list wasn't meant to be comprehensive, but just throwing out some ideas). I think a Pirate King one for Ruggan Bor, Gabool the Wild, Raga Bol, Vilu Daskar, etc. is in order. Also, a master of disguise thing for characters like The Mask, Bragoon, and Saro (it might only be 5 levels). Abbot is another worth considering, although it should have prerequisites such that NPC classes have a chance to take it.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-06, 06:49 PM
Ranger: See PHB (minus animal companion and spells, but more opportunities for favored enemies and combat style advancement)
Fighter: See PHB
Trickster: Abilities like ventriloquism, a distracting dance, and crazy skill-levels, too.
Seer: Some divination spells, though limited. Nothing that's actually flashy, and it takes a full round to cast any of them.
Shaman: Rituals, leadership, and spells that subtly affect the natural world. Control weather and the like. Things subtle enough to be dismissed as coincidence, but convincing to his followers.
Barbarian: See PHB
Knight: See PHB II
Skirmisher: Kinda like a monk, but faster, with skirmishing damage progressing like a rogue's sneak attack.
Thief: Rogue, but darker. Poison use, subtle mind-affecting powers, minor obfuscation.

I'll add a pirate captain thing, then. I was going to make the trickster a sort of bard-ish thing, but with comedy or performance.

Draz74
2008-01-07, 12:46 AM
Hmmm, Knight would actually be really good for Martin the Warrior.

Don't make "Thief" too dark ... Gonff was one of the most lovable characters in the whole series, after all.

CommodoreFluffy
2008-01-08, 12:25 AM
The Commodore Speaks:

This all looks nice and shiney, but one...Major...Huge, issue here, Move Speed. I think that we should instead have a different game system, expanding the rest of the world, changing the length measurement systems. I have never seen a mouse that could move 30 bloody feet in a mere 6 seconds, sure they're quick, but that is sprinting, and they cant go on for that long, that fast. I leave it up to you to take, or ignore my advice, thats my 2 cp*.

*(Damn, if this keeps on going on I'll be broke soon)

DJ Scrub
2008-01-08, 02:12 AM
Do you have any familiarity with the books at all? It's an entire universe to scale with the idea of mice as people, cats and badgers being giants. "30 feet" has nothing to do with distance as we think of it. Surely you didn't think a badger taking up a 10 foot square of floor space was meant to be 10 feet in the human world?

@Squish
Why skirmisher? What's wrong with the original Scout class?

Belkarseviltwin
2008-01-09, 02:58 PM
2 notes:

On Level: The problem with E6 is the fact that a badger with no levels is a Level 8 character already- and badgers should be able to take some character levels, although I can see them going straight into the Badger Lord PrC at 1st (ECL 9). Also, the 4 Racial Hit dice are needed due to the amount of punishment a badger (any badger) can take. Some cap is needed below 20, but 6 is too low. Maybe 12. Note that I don't think we need badgers to be able to adventure with a party of PCs- there are no instances of this in the books IIRC.
Also, mice have to be able to get past Level 8 for the following reason:
The fight between Brocktree and Ungatt Trunn shows that badgers and wildcats seem to be roughly equal, especially as their backgrounds and the skill described in the fight means they seem to have equal numbers of class levels. A wildcat with no class levels should probably therefore be ECL 8- although I could see an argument for ECL 7 with only 3 RHDs.
A mouse is capable of beating a wildcat one-on-one (Martin vs. Tsarmina). Admittedly, this is an exceptional mouse and the cat may not have very many levels in a combat class (I'd call her a Rogue), but she is at least ECL 10 (assuming 4 RHD and +4 LA).
Therefore, a mouse has to be able to get at least as high as a wildcat with some class levels. However, I can see the point of allowing badgers/wildcats to get to a higher level than mice etc.- Martin would have no chance against Boar or Lord Brocktree, and I can't see a mouse becoming more skilled than he was. Perhaps an HD cap?

On Vermin (Redwall sense) and Alignment
Alignment in the D&D sense fits the Redwall universe. I would put vermin as Usually Evil (precise flavor of evil varying), as I can only recall a few nonevil vermin: Veil (brought up at Redwall) is the only one who may be Good, Dingeye and Thura (the 2 defectors who bring the plague to Redwall) seem to be neutral, and Lord Verdauga (the cat who Tsarmina poisons to take power) is your typical harsh-but-fair LN. Reptiles are also usually evil.
Sparrows are neutral. Other birds I don't know about.
I've never heard of a nongood creature of the species who live at Redwall (mouse, squirrel, mole, hedgehog, hare, otter, badger)- although some of the revenge-crazed former slaves may count.

CommodoreFluffy
2008-01-10, 12:48 AM
Do you have any familiarity with the books at all? It's an entire universe to scale with the idea of mice as people, cats and badgers being giants. "30 feet" has nothing to do with distance as we think of it. Surely you didn't think a badger taking up a 10 foot square of floor space was meant to be 10 feet in the human world?

@Squish
Why skirmisher? What's wrong with the original Scout class?

Hey, Calm down. I've read a couple of those books, I was just saying, if you wanted it to be compatible with a broad number of supplements, it may be a good idea to at least note that it is a "Mouse foot" instead of a human foot, what if you want the dungeon boss to actually be a human?...With a stomp attack of course.

Draz74
2008-01-10, 01:54 AM
On Level: The problem with E6 is the fact that a badger with no levels is a Level 8 character already-

True. Obviously if E6 is used, the badger would need to be toned down (which I'm afraid I was in favor of anyway :smallwink:).

E6 is just remarkably well-balanced from what I've heard, and is nice because it needs so little additional house-ruling. On the other hand, races with LA are one of the few things it's not so good at ...


and badgers should be able to take some character levels, although I can see them going straight into the Badger Lord PrC at 1st (ECL 9).

I'd think they would need at least a level or two of fighter. But I agree, they should be able to take some character levels, and they shouldn't need much before they can enter the Badger Lord PrC.


Also, the 4 Racial Hit dice are needed due to the amount of punishment a badger (any badger) can take.

I disagree based on my memory of the books. I don't remember any badgers without class levels taking much abuse and living. Some abuse, yes; they are certainly tougher than ECL 1 races. But I just don't see them as uber as most people here do.


Some cap is needed below 20, but 6 is too low. Maybe 12.

I'm not sure how well "E12" would work out. E8 and E10 have been playtested significantly. E8 seems to be almost as popular as E6; E10 hasn't caught on so much.

Personally, I'm in favor of us writing up a Badger version that is maybe 3 Racial Hit Dice and +1 LA, and making the game E8. Then we could make the Badger Lord PrC 3 levels long (like Paragon classes in UA), and make it require 2 Fighter or Barbarian-like levels to get into the PrC. Then people could just play with the understanding that Badgers without class levels are relatively rare, and won't be looking for a fight.


Note that I don't think we need badgers to be able to adventure with a party of PCs- there are no instances of this in the books IIRC.

I always thought of Sunflash as a PC-type character. He does travel with the book's PC-type Redwall-adventurers some, although he's already a Badger Lord by that time (probably not a PC anymore). Besides, it would be fun to play as a badger PC, so I think it should be an option.


Also, mice have to be able to get past Level 8 for the following reason:
The fight between Brocktree and Ungatt Trunn shows that badgers and wildcats seem to be roughly equal, especially as their backgrounds and the skill described in the fight means they seem to have equal numbers of class levels. A wildcat with no class levels should probably therefore be ECL 8- although I could see an argument for ECL 7 with only 3 RHDs.
A mouse is capable of beating a wildcat one-on-one (Martin vs. Tsarmina). Admittedly, this is an exceptional mouse and the cat may not have very many levels in a combat class (I'd call her a Rogue), but she is at least ECL 10 (assuming 4 RHD and +4 LA).
Therefore, a mouse has to be able to get at least as high as a wildcat with some class levels. However, I can see the point of allowing badgers/wildcats to get to a higher level than mice etc.- Martin would have no chance against Boar or Lord Brocktree, and I can't see a mouse becoming more skilled than he was. Perhaps an HD cap?

All of them should have the same "cap" on levels as per normal E6 (or E-whatever) rules.

You're forgetting, though, that higher level doesn't necessarily mean more powerful in E6. Martin was pretty epic; he maxed out his level back in the Martin the Warrior book, and by the time he fought Tsarmina, he had a whole lot of extra feats to make him amazing. Epic adventurers like that take on monsters with a few more Hit Dice than themselves all the time. Even solo, it could work.

Boar or Brocktree were still tougher than Martin, yes. They had even more epic feats, and the Badger Lord PrC probably also give sweeter class features than Martin gets. :smallbiggrin:


On Vermin (Redwall sense) and Alignment
Alignment in the D&D sense fits the Redwall universe.

True, to a surprising degree. Fits better in Redwall than in just about any other setting, actually.


I would put vermin as Usually Evil (precise flavor of evil varying), as I can only recall a few nonevil vermin: Veil (brought up at Redwall) is the only one who may be Good, Dingeye and Thura (the 2 defectors who bring the plague to Redwall) seem to be neutral,

Veil's probably only neutral too. Agreed on Dingeye and Thura, and there may be a few others scattered throughout the books that are neutral. Can't think of any Good vermin.


and Lord Verdauga (the cat who Tsarmina poisons to take power) is your typical harsh-but-fair LN.

Agreed ... although cats in general are quite a variety. Tsarmina is pure evil, of course, but her brother may actually be good (he's at least neutral) and his descendants living by the Quarry certainly are.


Reptiles are also usually evil.
Sparrows are neutral. Other birds I don't know about.

2/3 neutral, 1/3 good seems to be typical for birds.


I've never heard of a nongood creature of the species who live at Redwall (mouse, squirrel, mole, hedgehog, hare, otter, badger)- although some of the revenge-crazed former slaves may count.

A lot of non-Redwall mice/squirrels/hedgehogs/voles/rabbits/shrews would be neutral, and maybe even a few evil. I'm not sure there's ever a non-good Hare or Badger or Mole.

DJ Scrub
2008-01-10, 02:28 AM
Hey, Calm down. I've read a couple of those books, I was just saying, if you wanted it to be compatible with a broad number of supplements, it may be a good idea to at least note that it is a "Mouse foot" instead of a human foot, what if you want the dungeon boss to actually be a human?...With a stomp attack of course.

Fair enough. That post was harsher than I intended it. Your point is reasonable.

@Belkarseviltwin
You make some good points. I want very much to keep this thread from devolving into a fanboy argumentation thing where we're all feverishly googling for whether it actually says Ranguvar has Bloodwrath or it's just implied (it actually says, if that would bother you) or whatever, but I did want to comment briefly about your concerns.

First, the badger is currently in the OP with 4 HD and a +2 mod, so it's ECL 6 with no class level, not 8. I also think that it is difficult to gauge the power of wildcats compared to badgers given the very small sample size of wildcats. Statting those will be largely speculative.

Also, Martin is a bad baseline for what mice can really do. Matthias would be a much better "ultimate mouse." Statting Martin for D&D is basically impossible, since it's intrinsic to the plot that he cannot lose. He doesn't defeat Tsarmina because he's stronger than her; actually, he almost dies. It's the "hero power" that defeats her, which Matthias and quite a few other characters in various books can also use, but which Martin has in such massive quantities that his actual combat prowess is difficult for us to even ascertain. If Boar had been evil, Martin could have beaten him, at least late in his life. That's just how the story works.

Also, as for badgers adventuring, this does happen. Rawnblade travels with Mariel's group, Lonna spends time with the Redwallers on the way to Loamhedge, and of course Orlando the Axe makes that same journey with Matthias way back in the original trilogy. So it is rare but possible, as would be expected for a +6 race.

I agree on your points about alignment. To remain in flavor, it will be necessary to restrict mice and such, even if we are conservative about it, to "any nonevil" and vermin to "any nongood." That said, it may be more interesting to relax the harshness of the books' racism and just allow some Drizzt-esque character concepts. It would add variety and interest, I think, since the game would get pretty lame if you could eschew all Sense Motive checks in favor of, "Oh, it's a rat, it must be lying. Let's kill it so it doesn't follow us and slit our throats after dark."

@Draz74
You've made your point about badgers. I would be interested in hearing which badgers you think don't have class levels and when they're shown getting killed in a few hits. With the exception of Lonna's mentor and Boar himself both getting ganked by giant pirate bands (led by captains with plenty of class levels), I don't recall many badgers actually dying of wounds. On the whole they seem like fairly rare animals, anyway, and the few shown (typically no more than two at most in any given book) are almost always very strong.

Lady Tialait
2008-01-10, 03:37 AM
Personally I think Redwall would be a E10 world, E6 feels low personal power, but as you fight on you get more and more versitile. (Peir's Anthony's Xanth), E8 is your more personally powerful the an E6, but then you get more and more versitile (Lord of the Rings), I personally see Redwall charitors with a bit more powerful then boht of them. so E10 looks about right.

Addionally. If you E6 PrC become 1 level things. or at a max a 3 level thing.

at E8 you are looking at 5 to 6 level PrC.

at E10 you get your PrC upto 7. I can see Badger Lord as a 6 to 7 level PrC, that you have to really commit to.

if Redwall was a E6 and Badger even had a +1 or +2 LA, AND had to meet 2 levels of Fighter (or whatever) to get the PrC, they it would max out at 1 to 2 level PrC meaning the abilities would all have to come from the first level. or the second. No scaleing abilies, just over all poor design.

As for the 'hero power' I do see PC's of Redwall useing Action Points. that really does represent a Heroic push. Really fitting for the setting.

CommodoreFluffy
2008-01-10, 07:16 PM
Fair enough. That post was harsher than I intended it. Your point is reasonable.

It's the "hero power" that defeats her,

I agree on your points about alignment. To remain in flavor, it will be necessary to restrict mice and such, even if we are conservative about it, to "any nonevil" and vermin to "any nongood." That said, it may be more interesting to relax the harshness of the books' racism and just allow some Drizzt-esque character concepts. It would add variety and interest, I think, since the game would get pretty lame if you could eschew all Sense Motive checks in favor of, "Oh, it's a rat, it must be lying. Let's kill it so it doesn't follow us and slit our throats after dark."


I have three points, one for every remaining block of text.

Thanks for the apology...*Apology, Accepted" (in Darth Vader voice0
I like to call this: THE POWER OF PLOT!
I like how in the MM, lots of the monsters, such as hobgoblins, are stated as "Usually"(insert alignment here) I had an entire empire of good hobos fighting bad hobos in a campaign once!

Draz74
2008-01-10, 09:12 PM
First, the badger is currently in the OP with 4 HD and a +2 mod, so it's ECL 6 with no class level, not 8. I also think that it is difficult to gauge the power of wildcats compared to badgers given the very small sample size of wildcats. Statting those will be largely speculative.
Agreed that it will be pretty speculative, but I think making the two pretty similar isn't too out of line. Wildcats probably a little weaker.


Also, Martin is a bad baseline for what mice can really do. Matthias would be a much better "ultimate mouse." Statting Martin for D&D is basically impossible, since it's intrinsic to the plot that he cannot lose. He doesn't defeat Tsarmina because he's stronger than her; actually, he almost dies. It's the "hero power" that defeats her, which Matthias and quite a few other characters in various books can also use, but which Martin has in such massive quantities that his actual combat prowess is difficult for us to even ascertain. If Boar had been evil, Martin could have beaten him, at least late in his life. That's just how the story works.
Depends entirely how you think about it. Maybe Martin was an ordinary PC in a hypothetical Redwall campaign, and the campaign just went so well that the DM decided to base many future adventures with other characters off of Martin's legacy. :smallbiggrin:


That said, it may be more interesting to relax the harshness of the books' racism and just allow some Drizzt-esque character concepts. It would add variety and interest, I think, since the game would get pretty lame if you could eschew all Sense Motive checks in favor of, "Oh, it's a rat, it must be lying. Let's kill it so it doesn't follow us and slit our throats after dark."
I agree with this.


@Draz74
You've made your point about badgers. I would be interested in hearing which badgers you think don't have class levels and when they're shown getting killed in a few hits. With the exception of Lonna's mentor and Boar himself both getting ganked by giant pirate bands (led by captains with plenty of class levels), I don't recall many badgers actually dying of wounds. On the whole they seem like fairly rare animals, anyway, and the few shown (typically no more than two at most in any given book) are almost always very strong.

Well, there are about 45 badgers (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Badgers) in the books. Most of them are very strong, yes, but most of them are high-level when they enter the story.

I unfortunately don't remember the books well enough to comment on the toughness of some of these. Does Auma, as a young badger, do anything physically impressive? Barkstripe probably even had a couple of levels of experience, but unless I'm forgetting something, his death while fighting Kotir forces is still not described as being very dramatic or epic. Some, such as Brockrose, we don't know much about at all except that they died (when not especially ancient); this could imply that badgers really are pretty mortal, vulnerable creatures like everyone else when they aren't mighty, well-experienced lords.

I'm fairly certain that Urthound and Urthrun are described as falling to a young Feragho and his band without putting up any kind of impressive fight, even though Urthound no doubt had a couple levels under his belt. Urthrun is probably a good example of a base badger with no class levels.

Muta could be another, though she's probably tougher than most class-level-less badgers due to an aggressive selection of Bloodwrath-related racial feats.

Mara probably only had one class level (not very experienced) at the beginning of Salamandastron. Her early adventures with Pikkel might be a good measure of a badger whose strength is mostly just from its racial traits. As I've mentioned before, Sunflash might be in this same category at the beginning of the book, though he levels up faster than Mara.


if Redwall was a E6 and Badger even had a +1 or +2 LA, AND had to meet 2 levels of Fighter (or whatever) to get the PrC, they it would max out at 1 to 2 level PrC meaning the abilities would all have to come from the first level. or the second. No scaleing abilies, just over all poor design.

Um, LA doesn't work that way in E6. Otherwise it would normally be way too strong of a disadvantage. E6 has special rules for dealing with LA races, by reducing their base stats (lower point buy values). They're not the best rules (which makes Racial Hit Dice a lot better than LA in this case), but they're better than keeping the default LA rules.


As for the 'hero power' I do see PC's of Redwall useing Action Points. that really does represent a Heroic push. Really fitting for the setting.
Definitely.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-10, 09:30 PM
I was actually looking into stripping away the mouse bonus feat and giving them 'rise to the occasion', allowing them to add +2 to an skill check or roll once per day. Fair?

thevorpalbunny
2008-01-10, 09:55 PM
As for the stats, badgers seem to be the strongest creatures in the Redwall universe and I used +8 for that reason. That puts them on par with, for example, the dexterity of a pixie. Ogres have +10 strength. Boar the Fighter was probably level 20, which if he was 18 base and spent his levels on it (likely), would give him a Str of 31, or the ability to just barely lift a load of around 1.5 tons. This is in line with his difficulty lifting the boulder larger than was. I really think it should go back up.
Boar is one of the greatest heroes of his world, which is very similar to ours; he is therefore about 5th or 6th level. See this essay. (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html)

Draz74
2008-01-10, 10:23 PM
I was actually looking into stripping away the mouse bonus feat and giving them 'rise to the occasion', allowing them to add +2 to an skill check or roll once per day. Fair?

I'd much rather have the bonus feat. Even if the campaign only has 1 encounter/day I'd rather have the bonus feat. :smallyuk:

On the other hand, perhaps mice are overpowered as we have them currently: like Humans, but with Small Size (which is mostly an advantage), minus the usual biggest Small Size penalty (20 speed). So maybe the bonus feat should be replaced with something. And a new ability related to Actions Points would fit nicely.

I'm not totally satisfied with any Action Points system I've seen yet, but one simple system is found in conjunction with the E6 rules (http://esix.pbwiki.com/f/RaisingtheStakes.pdf). It has a default of "each player gets 6 'Conviction points' for each 4-hour session of game play." Mice could get 7 Conviction points instead of 6, plus the option of a racial feat that gets them even more.

Fiery Diamond
2008-01-11, 11:48 PM
Now hold on a moment! There was a Good-aligned rat in the Redwall books. I'm blanking on his name....and I don't have the books with me. He traveled with and was loyal to his Evil-aligned captain. Oh yeah, Blaggut! That was his name. Gotta love the internet. Anyway, he was definitely Good-aligned. After all, he took his captain's life after the murder because of his conscience.
Totally one of my favorite characters.
-Fiery Diamond

Katasi
2008-02-23, 11:42 PM
As for the whole fight over languages, here is my two cents- there is one example of something being refered to as a seperate language in the books, it's Sparra. Miathias was the only one in redwall that could understand them, even no other birds talked that way.

As for the fight over magic, I think we should look heavily to Complete Warrior for ideas, specifically the later chapters.

And if I may make a suggestion, maybe it would be a good idea to take a look into some of the races books and give badgers a monster class and totally get rid of the LA and Racial HD, that way they can start at first leel and still not be overpowered.

Also, as for vermin- rats take much the roll of orcs, so orcs might be the place to start looking for their racial traits.

As for action points and hero power....I don't believe either of those describes what really happens in the books. In the books we do not get to see the system, all we get to see is the campaign. What appears to be action points or hero power or whatever are actually something FAR more common- the DM fudged the rolls or did something else to make sure the story came out as he wanted it to.

And idk what all this E6 or E8 or E10 stuff you're talking about is. PLEASE do not change it away from D20, it's the only system I know or can readily get my hands on.

dentrag2
2008-02-25, 07:27 PM
hey squish. looked over this, saw you were missing a couple things.
PrC classes
include taggerung for vermin, and maybe for otters.

Classes: at least include druid! nerf some of the spells, but nature magic wouldent seem out of place. replace the bard damage with some extra abilites, say more kinds of music.

Races: moles hard speech should include a penalty to gather information and/or diplomacy.

monsters: what are you going to do about these? the PC's will get tired of fighting the same 4 creatures over and over again with occasionally a new monster. include some new things as well that aren't in the series.

Genders:I feel a little sexist saying this, but it always seemed to me that the men tended to be fighters/rouges, and the girls always seemed to be healers or other knowlegeable people, with a couple exeptions, like mariel the storm. a adjustment to players might help balance this out, such as males get +1 str, and females get a +1 int or cha, because i see no reason to have int in this campaign. you've removed all the intellect classes!

General notes.
Maybe include a class like, for example, lets call this the Loremaster. give it some of the spells of a wizard and a cleric, maybe half from each, and increase the required material components to show that this class doesnt cast spells so much as create them out of mechanical components, and make it an Int class. there, you now have your one and only intelligence class.
vermin shoulden't always be treated as enemies. include a monster race thing for all of them, and make rats the most playable one.

there, some fixes.

Admiral Squish
2008-02-25, 08:15 PM
Woah. I kinda forgot about this project. I should get back to this, shouldn't I? Sorry about the gap.

Alright, I think we have the main good-guys ironed out. I'm going to get started on the vermin, and maybe some PrCs. Actually, I think I know a guy who could help me on the PrCs. I'll get in contact with him.

Katasi
2008-02-26, 12:36 AM
hey squish. looked over this, saw you were missing a couple things.
PrC classes
include taggerung for vermin, and maybe for otters.

Classes: at least include druid! nerf some of the spells, but nature magic wouldent seem out of place. replace the bard damage with some extra abilites, say more kinds of music.

Races: moles hard speech should include a penalty to gather information and/or diplomacy.

monsters: what are you going to do about these? the PC's will get tired of fighting the same 4 creatures over and over again with occasionally a new monster. include some new things as well that aren't in the series.

Genders:I feel a little sexist saying this, but it always seemed to me that the men tended to be fighters/rouges, and the girls always seemed to be healers or other knowlegeable people, with a couple exeptions, like mariel the storm. a adjustment to players might help balance this out, such as males get +1 str, and females get a +1 int or cha, because i see no reason to have int in this campaign. you've removed all the intellect classes!

General notes.
Maybe include a class like, for example, lets call this the Loremaster. give it some of the spells of a wizard and a cleric, maybe half from each, and increase the required material components to show that this class doesnt cast spells so much as create them out of mechanical components, and make it an Int class. there, you now have your one and only intelligence class.
vermin shoulden't always be treated as enemies. include a monster race thing for all of them, and make rats the most playable one.

there, some fixes.

INT still needs to be included, for skill points.

As for monsters, let's see, besides the vermin NPCs, you also have Adders- easy enough to make, just take the huge viper, maybe up the DC on the poison a little bit and up the INT a tiny bit. Pike should be easy enough to do. Sharks, also fairly easy. Bird of Prey of course, toads, Ravens and such, Ermines....

FatherMalkav
2008-02-26, 09:55 AM
I remember otters being great with javlins and sligs, as well as having alost an inbred hatred of water rats.

Als, Whats about Blod Rage? Think badgers should get a racial Rage x/day?

Its great oe the less though. VERY nice work :)

dentrag2
2008-02-26, 01:01 PM
INT still needs to be included, for skill points.

As for monsters, let's see, besides the vermin NPCs, you also have Adders- easy enough to make, just take the huge viper, maybe up the DC on the poison a little bit and up the INT a tiny bit. Pike should be easy enough to do. Sharks, also fairly easy. Bird of Prey of course, toads, Ravens and such, Ermines....

Yes. you have a point with the monsters. lets come up with some Non canon monsters shall we? the point i was trying to make with int is that if a race gets an int bonus, theres no reason for anyone to play it because there is no class left that requires int to be useful. all of them need all of the stats slightly.