PDA

View Full Version : Do you penalize your players for low charisma?



sikyon
2008-01-03, 11:39 PM
I don't mean penalize them like throw charisma draining attacks, but more like penalize them on interactions in a town. For example, the 6 charisma wizard walks into a store to buy reagents. The store owners don't pay attention to him when he walks in, and when he asks for service they dismiss him. They almost refuse to serve him.

He goes to have an audience with the king with the rest of his party, and he can't enter the throne room because he's just flat out disgusting.

Force rolls for diplomacy, even (this is a slippery slope given how broken diplomacy is)

Basically, do you let your players do the talking, or do let their characters do the talking?

This applies for int and wisdom too. If someone comes up with a genius plan to get out a situation with an int 6 fighter... do you tell them "No, you are too dumb to think of that."

Solo
2008-01-03, 11:42 PM
I don't mean penalize them like throw charisma draining attacks, but more like penalize them on interactions in a town. For example, the 6 charisma wizard walks into a store to buy reagents. The store owners don't pay attention to him when he walks in, and when he asks for service they dismiss him. They almost refuse to serve him.


That makes no sense for several reasons.

Sleet
2008-01-03, 11:45 PM
I don't penalize them for low attributes, but I expect them to roleplay their characters. A charisma 6 character would have a hard time getting along in town; my players know that, and act accordingly.

Cuddly
2008-01-03, 11:47 PM
I thought most RPG players had low charisma.


*rimshot*

sikyon
2008-01-03, 11:53 PM
That makes no sense for several reasons.

I take it you've never worked in customer service, have you?

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2008-01-04, 12:01 AM
You remember Haley talking about Elan's charisma bonus under the hood?

You're damn right it's a penalty.

Solo
2008-01-04, 12:01 AM
I take it you've never worked in customer service, have you?

So you work for the DMV, eh?

Nebo_
2008-01-04, 12:01 AM
If a customer doesn't have good social skills, you don't refuse to serve them. If they start making threats and being a general jerk, then you might, but that's an entirely different story. What kind of a stupid shopkeeper would throw someone out of their shop for being timid?

Solo
2008-01-04, 12:04 AM
If a customer doesn't have good social skills, you don't refuse to serve them. If they start making threats and being a general jerk, then you might, but that's an entirely different story. What kind of a stupid shopkeeper would throw someone out of their shop for being timid?

More to the point, what shopkeeper would throw out a timid person who can tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up several times per day?

SomethingElse
2008-01-04, 12:06 AM
I expect players to roleplay low charisma, but I don't outright try to penalize them - rolls for charisma-related things obviously are harder but I don't like to ever "penalize" players.

sikyon
2008-01-04, 12:22 AM
A low charisma person is not neccesairly timid. He may also be brash, abrasive, or outright rude. Timid doesn't really cut Charisma 6 in my opinion, maybe Charimsa 8.

But yeah, if I try to make small talk with someone timid, it's pretty rude not to talk back. If I ask him if he needs help and he jumps back and almost knocks over a shelf of potions I'm gonna be mad. But most importantly, if he is timid, he's not cut out to be a PC. If he's just "timid" low charisma, then he should be running away from combat.


More to the point, what shopkeeper would throw out a timid person who can tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up several times per day?

A shopkeeper would throw out someone who's rude. His shop, his buissness, he reserves the right to serve. It's not like he's a large chain store, and you're an outsider. He can treat you like crap and even if you're famous, people will still trust him over you.

And yes, he can throw out even a high level wizard. If the wizard outright attacks him, that's mutually assured destruction. Sooner or later the wizard is going to be hunted down by good wizards, more powerful than he is (yes, I know it's hard to conceive) because he attacked an innocent man.

If he tries to do something like trash the shopkeeper's reputation, well, it's like a politician singularly going after someone. It just tarnishes your own reputation.

Besides, anyone who actually meets/sees the charisma 6 person is going to understand why exactly this happened, and D&D typically doesn't' have mass second hand communication.

Solo
2008-01-04, 12:29 AM
A shopkeeper would throw out someone who's rude. His shop, his buissness, he reserves the right to serve. It's not like he's a large chain store, and you're an outsider. He can treat you like crap and even if you're famous, people will still trust him over you.

And low charisma people are rude, are they?

By the way, you seem to have misread my post. I said "throw out a timid person", not "throw out a rude person".

de-trick
2008-01-04, 12:35 AM
It's expected to when your roleplaying. A 6 Chr character should not try and be the great leader of the world or a low INT be a master mind inventor, or a low WIS character be a elder in a village

Timespike
2008-01-04, 12:36 AM
What if he's just ugly? A fire mage may have some NASTY burn scars and a raspy, gravelly voice from an accident during his apprenticeship, for instance. That -2 to charisma can be timidity, rudeness, ugliness, social cluelessness (annoying, but friendly and sincere) grumpiness, autistic non-responsiveness, icy detachment, or a number of other things.

Darkantra
2008-01-04, 12:39 AM
I find that the best way of dealing with low charisma is to just ask the players how they'd like it to manifest. They could be meek, come off as annoying, has no presence, be genuinely unpleasant to look at or any number of negative traits. As long as the player can roleplay it well and you can match them, then there shouldn't be any problem.

If the wizard was plain ugly and entered the shop then it's more likely that he wouldn't be served quickly and would receive sub-par service since everyone just wants to look away from him. If he was exceptionally bossy then the owner would approach him like a regular customer and then sour when the stream of demands came out from the wizards mouth.

SomethingElse
2008-01-04, 12:41 AM
It's expected to when your roleplaying. A 6 Chr character should not try and be the great leader of the world or a low INT be a master mind inventor, or a low WIS character be a elder in a village
Which leads me to one of my biggest pet peeves - players who think that just because they know how to describe some given action their character can, would, or should do it. I once ran a Star Wars game where one of my players insisted that his character could build a handmade semiautomatic rocket launcher or something, despite the fact that I told him the way he wanted to do it was completely out of genre, and besides something better already existed in the Arms & Equipment Guide and was within his skill level to build. He insisted that he had to do it the way he described or I'd be ruining his fun...

sikyon
2008-01-04, 12:44 AM
And low charisma people are rude, are they?

By the way, you seem to have misread my post. I said "throw out a timid person", not "throw out a rude person".

No, I said that there are rarely timid PC's, just timid doesn't represent 6 cha anyways, and that you can still dislike someone who won't answer your questions. Furthermore, people who read into very timid body language tend to assume more aggressive body postures, etc.

Solo
2008-01-04, 12:47 AM
Your grammar makes my head hurt.


I'll write more if I manage to make better sense o what you said.

an kobold
2008-01-04, 12:49 AM
It depends on how the player is acting out their character. If they min/maxed so int is the dump stat yet continually come up with clever ideas in character, they're going to be penalized. On the other hand, if the player gets a look of revelation upon their face, gives the DM a sour look, and reluctantly declares "Thog charges and attacks," they shouldn't be penalized. Low cha is admittedly harder to draw the line. Are they playing the suave type with 6 cha, or are they playing the overly conceited type? Ask them ooc if you're not sure, then take appropriate action.

TL;DR-Good role playing penalizes for low (mental) scores already, the DM shouldn't have to do it unless bad role playing is involved.

sikyon
2008-01-04, 12:50 AM
Your grammar makes my head hurt.


I'll write more if I manage to make better sense o what you said.

You must have o'really weak head.

Solo
2008-01-04, 12:54 AM
Technically, it's my spelling that's poor, not my grammar. :smallwink:

Behold_the_Void
2008-01-04, 01:08 AM
I've had a player suggest that another player be penalized for making a highly unoptimized character with HIGH charisma once, saying that they should get attacked more often because they're more noticeable. That was a bizarre episode.

But in general, I require it to be roleplayed, and I have ways of smiting people who don't play their ability scores.

Orzel
2008-01-04, 01:25 AM
I make the PCs do Mob checks every week in a town which is a CHA check to see if a local community forms an angry mob and runs you outta town. It's an easy check but if you talk a lot with a CHA penalty... watch that DC rise.

marjan
2008-01-04, 01:31 AM
I make the PCs do Mob checks every week in a town which is a CHA check to see if a local community forms an angry mob and runs you outta town. It's an easy check but if you talk a lot with a CHA penalty... watch that DC rise.

Can you take ten on that check?:smalltongue:

horseboy
2008-01-04, 01:34 AM
I've had a player suggest that another player be penalized for making a highly unoptimized character with HIGH charisma once, saying that they should get attacked more often because they're more noticeable. That was a bizarre episode.
Sounds like he played too much Everquest. (Clerics draw more aggro because of their higher cha stat)

Orzel
2008-01-04, 01:34 AM
Can you take ten on that check?:smalltongue:

Sure, if you sleep the whole week.
But if you "sleep" the whole week, you might get a penalty or two.

Sonofaspectre
2008-01-04, 01:40 AM
I have one basic rule when it comes to roleplaying the stats for a charcter:
- if you play it lower than its rolled, I'll drop it to what you are playing
- if you play it higher than its rolled, I'll remind you of your stat, but not penalize you.

For Charisma in particular, my group has a bad habit of dumping charisma then expecting to be able to do Charisma based things well. While penalize isn't the right word, I will call for a diplomacy check once a session as needed, to remind them, or just have fun with the scenario, by taking what they say and "translating" into CHAR 5.

Other than my barbarian being pissed that I wouldn't allow him to Intimidate well (as Intimidate is a CHAR skill, and he dumped it and put very few ranks in it, but I'm the bad guy for not letting him sub in STR ... ::shrug::) we haven't had any problems with my handling on it. If they had a problem with it, I would call it penalizing. Since they don't, I'll go with ... reminding.

SomethingElse
2008-01-04, 01:45 AM
I have one basic rule when it comes to roleplaying the stats for a charcter:
- if you play it lower than its rolled, I'll drop it to what you are playing
This seems like it could be very problematic, given that some of the Cha/Int/Wis things a character with 16 or higher in said stat would come up with shouldn't even be conceivable to us mere mortals....

Hallavast
2008-01-04, 01:49 AM
I make the PCs do Mob checks every week in a town which is a CHA check to see if a local community forms an angry mob and runs you outta town. It's an easy check but if you talk a lot with a CHA penalty... watch that DC rise.

Isn't this a bit much? It takes a lot to get an otherwise peaceful town up in arms about anything. Why is the check made every week?? Why make this a mechanic? Why not just use regular cause/effect reasoning? If the characters actually do something to upset the majority of the townspeople, then form a mob. If they don't really do anything to get on people's nerves, then don't run them out of town for no reason. It's like rolling gygaxian random encounter tables. It doesn't make a lick of sense!

Also, aren't you double penalizing the PCs on the check? A low charisma character already has a penalty to his roll. So why would you further penalize him by increasing the DC? His disadvantage is reflected here twice.

Rumpus
2008-01-04, 01:49 AM
Low Charisma can manifest in a number of different ways, from awkwardness, scars, bad breath, humpback, inability to hold eye contact, male pattern baldness, nervous tics, smarmyness, or simply always standing in other people's personal space. A player designing his character should figure out what it is that causes his low Charisma score. Of course, a character could manifest several negative traits and still have a positive score if he had some massive positive ones to balance it out.

I let my players roleplay it, and have NPCs react appropriately. For example, if a character with a really low Charisma doesn't RP it, I assume that the character thinks he's much cooler than he actually is (ie "The Sherminator" from American Pie), and NPCs treat him like a moron.

Cuddly
2008-01-04, 01:50 AM
A socially timid person could have a charisma of anywhere from 1 to 10, and this could have no effect whatsoever on their willingness to engage in combat. There's no rule anywhere that says PCs must be loudmouth sons of bitches, is there? No, there's not.

People with low charisma MAY try to take charge of a party, to play leader, but the reaction from the other PCs and NPCs should be to ignore that person. Just as a person with low wisdom may wish to dispense what he thinks is good ideas, or a stupid PC may come up with what he thinks is a clever idea.

Danzaver
2008-01-04, 02:08 AM
There are lots of different ways for Charisma to be interpreted. I always give extra attention to the stat of charisma: if a character has an exceptionally high or low charisma, or is angsting over that the number they rolled does not fit the idea of they character they have in their head, I always take time to help them define what that number means.

Are they drop-dead gorgeous, but unfairly struck with an autism-spectrum disorder, limiting their possible social interactions?

Does their low charisma come from the fact that they are from a radically different culture in an intolerant world? (in which case they have a HIGHER charisma among their own kind, something I often use)

Are they a suave, smooth-tongued devil, whose facial expressions are unreadable because of so many Shlaga scars (a medieval German game of knife fighting, facing eachother, feet planted, aiming for the face. Fun fun).

Are they just immature and can't be taken seriously until they start to grow up and act like an adult.

Another possible interpretation is for Charisma to represent the strength/age of the soul, the power of invisible magnetic fields around the person, qi. chakras, or whatever you believe in. This is also the only way I can explain charisma being used for some classes' spells.

You might notice that this calls for a very stable, unmoving score to be defined by characteristics which would change over the course of someone's life, as they gain experience, wear and tear, etc. If this bothers you, try to find some way to even it out. As your immature character grows up, he loses his childish charm.

But to answer your original question, no I do not penalise my characters for low charisma per se (in that I don't like to think of a shopkeeper refusing to serve someone as a penalty - but rather a roleplaying opportunity, albeit not the most heroic themed one...). B

But once I define what their low charisma means, I have qualms in exploiting the hell out of their weaknesses, sometimes just for my own amusement. Every game is different, but I find being as ruthless as I can be answers quite well. :smalltongue:


This thread reminds me of a small section from my old Vampire books...

"Well, Harrick, let's see who the Toreador have pulled from the bottom of their collective shoe to discuss this matter with us, shall we?"
Jervis Greeves pulled a big fat Cuban cigar from his desk draw and struck a match, flinching instinctively from the tiny flame. "Bring them in!" Greeves bellowed at his attendant, ashes tumbling from the cigar tip.
The ashes hit the table at the same time Graves' jaw hit the floor. In walked the ugliest woman Jervis had ever seen - and he'd even seen some of the Nosferatu.
"Caine's blood, creature, that face could send me into torpor."
"Yes, sir." replied the Kindred calmly. "And now shouldn't we discuss the matter of-"
"No, not at all," Graves cut her off. "Tell the 'artistes' that if they want to do business with Jervis Graves, they need to send someone who still looks human."

sikyon
2008-01-04, 02:14 AM
A socially timid person could have a charisma of anywhere from 1 to 10, and this could have no effect whatsoever on their willingness to engage in combat. There's no rule anywhere that says PCs must be loudmouth sons of bitches, is there? No, there's not.

People with low charisma MAY try to take charge of a party, to play leader, but the reaction from the other PCs and NPCs should be to ignore that person. Just as a person with low wisdom may wish to dispense what he thinks is good ideas, or a stupid PC may come up with what he thinks is a clever idea.

A socially timid person is not the kind of person who enjoys conflict and actively seeks it. The only people of whom I know of are, say, school shooters: people with generally regarded social retardation and deep seated mental issues. They also fall under the evil descriptor.

People with low scores are generally disregarded and disdained either openly or in secret. While you may or may not be a saint, the bulk of the population is very much consumed in doing stuff like trying to bring about the downfall of uncharismatic leaders. For example, office politics. Stupid people with good ideas generally have those ideas evaluated on the basis of their credentials, the same way your reputation carries weight, even in the most prestigious scientific journals.

The world is not nice, people as a whole are not nice. They are only nice when people are watching.

Cuddly
2008-01-04, 02:42 AM
A socially timid person is not the kind of person who enjoys conflict and actively seeks it. The only people of whom I know of are, say, school shooters: people with generally regarded social retardation and deep seated mental issues. They also fall under the evil descriptor.

I don't like socially interacting with people; I'm somewhat shy. But I do love a fight.


People with low scores are generally disregarded and disdained either openly or in secret. While you may or may not be a saint, the bulk of the population is very much consumed in doing stuff like trying to bring about the downfall of uncharismatic leaders. For example, office politics. Stupid people with good ideas generally have those ideas evaluated on the basis of their credentials, the same way your reputation carries weight, even in the most prestigious scientific journals.

The world is not nice, people as a whole are not nice. They are only nice when people are watching.

What does this have anything to do with anything? Especially whether or not the shopkeep sells an item that only 2% of the population would be interested in, and only 2% of that can afford?

Talic
2008-01-04, 02:54 AM
I make my players tell my WHY their charisma is low. Are they rude? Awkward? So ugly that women cover their child's eyes when you walk by?

And then I treat it accordingly. Generally, people will still be helped in places of business, though they may not get offered the best rates.

Khanderas
2008-01-04, 03:07 AM
Most "normals" cannot toss adventurers out of their shops without risking death.
If you need a handful of madmen to do something dangerous, you wont refuse a particular group because they are unfriendly (as in not likeable).

What you CAN do is give less or more extra information volontary depending on charisma and/or "questrewards".

Mr McFoulmouth (Scarred dwarven Fighter) and Mr Smoothtalk (Friendly human Bard) each lead a band of similar teams for adventure.

In the mayors office of a mid-sized town works Mayor Quest, former adventurer himself on the high seas, pegleg and hook and all. He needs a team to investigate the nearby caves, he suspects that a gang of bandits have taken residence there due to increased crime.

McFoulmouth heard there was a job opportunity and storms into the office, offhandedly insults the clerk without thinking (poor manners) and is despite that hired. The job needs getting done afterall.
He is offered 500 gold for the job, plus 10 per apprehended thief. To ensure that there won't be any foul play (like rounding up strangers) the mayor has a stableboy assigned as a non-combatant cohort. McFoulmouth is then dismissed to handle the job with instructions he is expected to keep the boy safe.

An hour later Mr Smoothtalk comes in for the same job but after negotiations is offered 600 gold plus 15 per thief apprehended. He spends some time chatting with the mayor and is given the information there lives an old ranger near the caves, who is an old friend of the mayor's. Help and information can problebly be expected from him, "to keep it fair and honest" (witness like the stableboy for McFoulmouth).


Same job, very different beginning.

Quincunx
2008-01-04, 06:15 AM
Sounds like he played too much Everquest. (Clerics draw more aggro because of their higher cha stat)

Whaaaaaaaaaaa? What was that statement, a holdover from pre-2000 before people parsed cause and effect? To not derail too much, high stats good, low stats bad, this now proven for all stats, PM for charisma particulars in EQ[1].

Danzaver, I like the fluff of charisma being a stat for personal energy fields or whatever-you-may-call-it; it explains the people who compel despite those obnoxious traits.

nerulean
2008-01-04, 07:44 AM
This is a bit of a sore spot for me. I like playing high CHA characters, but I've played with DMs who entirely ignore the statistics and let you get away with whatever you roleplay. When you've bumped your CHA up as high as you can and see someone with CHA 8 doing better in social situations than you because they shout louder at the gaming table or, in one unamusing situation, because the DM has a huge crush on the player, it gets frustrated.

So yes, I expect low CHA to be played out. Outsiders who have no reason to pick one person in the group to talk to will automatically be drawn to the high CHA character, while those with low CHA will be overlooked unless they directly try to contribute.

JadedDM
2008-01-04, 11:57 AM
Do you penalize your players for low charisma?

Yes, I do. It's called "Reaction Check Adjustment." It's a 2E thing. You roll 2d10 to see how an NPC feels toward a PC and modify it based on their charisma. A score of 3 would give you a -5 penalty, whereas a score of 18 would give you a whopping +7 bonus.

Doomsy
2008-01-04, 04:46 PM
This is kind of a tricky one, mostly because of the problems inherent in playing characters who are WAY better at things then the player is, and the fact that D&D somehow mashed physical attractiveness and social skills into one score.

How do you play someone with Charisma 18 if you're not a master thespian and orator yourself? What if you're playing a hideously ugly or deformed character who just happens to have a great speaking voice and skills?

Also, now that I've brought this up - if Charisma is a combination of both looks and skills, how the heck does charisma damage work? Does the drainer yank part of the face off as well as leaving terrible mental scars that stops you from being so glib at dinner parties?

The physical stuff is relatively easy to judge, but once you get into the relative stuff like intelligence, wisdom, and charisma, things kind of tend to fall into arbitrary standards.

ashmanonar
2008-01-04, 06:08 PM
Low Charisma can manifest in a number of different ways, from awkwardness, scars, bad breath, humpback, inability to hold eye contact, male pattern baldness, nervous tics, smarmyness, or simply always standing in other people's personal space. A player designing his character should figure out what it is that causes his low Charisma score. Of course, a character could manifest several negative traits and still have a positive score if he had some massive positive ones to balance it out.


So, again, Elan's massive charisma bonus "Under the Hood?"