[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II [Archive] - Page 4

Mephibosheth

2008-06-06, 10:30 AM

Wow, a lot’s happened since I last checked this thread. I apologize for my prolonged absence. I got married on May 24, and have either been out of town or ridiculously busy since then. However, I think I’m back now, and I’ll do my best to get caught up with this post. I’ll do my best to touch on everything, but I apologize in advance if I miss anything.

And now…to the various issues! *flies away*

Contacting Nickelodeon: I’ve thought about doing this multiple times and have stepped up my efforts slightly since Jagadaishio mentioned it, but I can’t seem to find any sort of email address or mailing address that actually works. I’ve found contact information for Nick Online and Viacom, but nothing for Avatar staff directly. If anyone can find contact information, I’ll be more than happy to contact them on behalf of the project. If I do, what should we say?

Water Whip: I’ve added a clause allowing Water Whip to threaten squares and be used for AoO’s. Additionally, creating a Water Whip is a move action that does not provoke an AoO, and I’ve added a clause stating that using a Water Whip in a threatened square does not provoke. I think that should take care of all issues except using Wisdom for attack rolls.

I’m still opposed to using Wisdom for attack rolls for Water Whips for many of the same reasons as when we last had this discussion. I don’t want to remove any more MAD from the system and the martial nature of the bending disciplines makes it completely reasonable that physical ability scores would be important, even for things like the Single Water Whip (which, were I DM, I’d call a combination of Water Blast or Water Whip and Pressure). Plus, any argument you could make for allowing Wisdom to govern attack rolls for Water Whip could be just as easily made for other seeds. I’d rather just draw the line and avoid the slippery slope.

Note that you can’t make a whip with the Ice Shards seed. To quote:

By molding a relatively small quantity of water into her hands, a waterbender may craft any ordinarily wooden or metal melee weapon or ammunition she is familiar with (not necessarily proficient with) out of ice as a full-round action.
Given that whips are not made of wood or metal, you can’t make one with Ice Shards.

TWF Blasts: With the exception of firebenders, all of the bending blasts we’ve seen in the show have used both hands (or feet, in the case of many Earth Blasts). In most cases, benders seem to need both hands to perform a bending form. This is the main reason I’m reluctant to allow TWF for bending forms. I could see a firebender exception (perhaps a new class ability in the low to mid levels or a firebender-only feat), but I don’t support TWF for other benders. It’s not a “zomgTWFblastsarebroken” thing, it’s a “adhering to the canon of the show accurately” thing. And I’m not even going to touch the TWF/FoB/unarmed strikes debate.

Ice Shards: What if we revamped the Weapon application completely? We could remove the part about making any wooden or metal weapon and simply state the statistics of the weapon created outright. I agree with Eighth_Seraph that we’ve never seen the seed used to make an actual weapon. They usually look more like pointy shards of ice. I’d say the Weapon application would deal 1d6 plus Strength piercing damage with maybe a little bit of cold, have a critical of 20/x2, and have the ability to be thrown with a 10 foot range increment. Increasing the DC could bump up the damage, alter the crucial range/multiplier, or possibly increase the range increment. This seems like a pretty contentious issue, so I’d like to know what people think about this idea. I remember re-writing this seed before, but I can’t for the life of me find the discussion in the thread.

Sustained Training: Sounds fine with me. I’ll wait a bit to see if it has the broad acceptance I expect, and then I’ll add it to the classes.

Bending for non-benders: I’m still opposed, mainly because the philosophy behind the bending arts is one of discipline and training, and doesn’t seem to lend itself to dabbling. Plus, it’s just as easy to dip into a bending class as it is to take a feat or spend cross-class skill ranks, especially for NPC’s. I just think this is unnecessary and contrary to the philosophy of bending. Maybe in a non-canon game, but not in a canon one.

Airbender Revisions: Taking them in order (as proposed by Jagadaishio) –

1. Knowledge (Arcana) – If you look under the “Skills” section of the website, you’ll see that we’ve revamped some of the knowledge skills slightly to make them more applicable to the setting. Knowledge (Arcana) is among them, and now deals more with mystical traditions, folk magic, and fortunetelling than with arcane spell casting.
2. I’m with you on Engulfing Winds. I think it could be pared down significantly and become a lot less complex and a lot more useful. I’ll think about how to do so over the next day or so and hopefully post something soon. I’d also be interested to see other attempts to re-write the seed.
3. I would rule that warfans can be held while airbending, but that they don’t grant a bonus. We’ve only seen airbenders using warfans a few times, so I doubt that they were used frequently by the Air Nomads. I don’t think we ever agreed upon stats for warfans, but we definitely should do so. Maybe I’ll bop over to the Items & Machinery thread and see what can be done. There are already-existing stats for warfans (I believe in Sandstorm), but I’d rather not rely on splat books that not everyone owns. Plus, Avatar warfans seem to be more versatile than the ones in Sandstorm.

Finally, let me again apologize for getting so behind. It turns out that getting married comes with a lot of other stuff for you to do, and I’ve been quite busy. I’ll try to keep better track of the thread now that I’m home and things have calmed down a bit.

And welcome back, Eighth_Seraph (at least for now)!

Mephibosheth

jagadaishio

2008-06-06, 01:36 PM

For Ice Shards, I don't think that a throwing distance needs to be included for weapon application. If a person is going to try to use that weapon as a ranged attack, they're probably just going to cannibalize it for water blast materials. Or use it for the ranged application of ice shards. As for it being statted out in the description, I rather like the idea. It creates the scaling aspect which we know and love from other seeds. That said, if I were DMing, I would probably allow players to make a combined manipulate/freeze and craft check to make items out of ice. I would absolutely require a craft check for any sort of a weapon that doesn't hold a -4 improvised penalty, the specific weapon function of ice shards aside.

I still think that Knowledge (Arcana) is less of an Airbender skill and more of an Avatar skill. From what we've seen of the other Airbenders in flashbacks, and what we know of Avatar Aang's knowledge of the spirit world prior to some talks with Avatar Roku, it seems like no Airbenders aside from ancient, wise ones and Avatars know any more about the spirit world than any other benders. Knowledge (Arcana) should either cease to be an Airbender skill, or become a skill for all four of the bending classes. That's the feeling I get, anyway.

Pirate_King

2008-06-06, 04:52 PM

I'm with Jag, Knowledge arcana should be for all benders. Iroh has a certain knowledge of the spirit world, and our application of it in this world fits with the deeper philosophies of all the bending disciplines and their interconnectedness.

Shades of Gray

2008-06-06, 05:00 PM

jagadaishio

2008-06-06, 10:25 PM

Maybe we can give each bender a type of knowledge
i.e. Air (Arcana), Fire (Military)

and taking bending study makes that skill not cross-class for you.

(Warning! Undeveloped idea I came up with in ten seconds)

My whole point, though, was that Airbenders don't seem to really know more about the spirit world than any other benders. Not that each class needs their own specialized knowledge skill.

Mephibosheth

2008-06-10, 09:42 AM

So, do we want to give all benders access to Knowledge (Arcana), or do we want to give none of them access to it? I can see either way, so I’ll leave it up to the community. I don’t think that we need separate Knowledge skills for each bending art. That’s what Knowledge (Bending) is for.

Next, a clarification and re-write of the Engulfing Winds airbending seed was requested, and I definitely agree with the sentiment. Engulfing Winds is relatively confusing, and I think would actually be best broken down into separate, simpler, and combinable seeds.

With this in mind, it’s important to realize that Engulfing Winds was created to represent this move (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/110/774.jpg), wherein Aang creates a twisting line of sustained air gusts that checks Jet’s forward movement and pushes him back. I think that this move could be represented as a combination of seeds, specifically one template seed that can be applied to make Air Blast continuous instead of instantaneous and another seed that allows direction changes in an Air Blast. My proposed seeds can be found below.

Sustained Gusts (Template)
Base DC: +10
This template can be applied to an airbender’s Air Blast, transforming the normally-instantaneous burst of air into a sustained gust. This sustained gust takes the form of a line with a length equal to the airbender’s bending range. It no longer requires a ranged touch attack to hit the target, but the target is allowed a Reflex save to negate the effect of the Air Blast. Targets that fail their Reflex save are affected as normal by the airbender’s Air Blast, take a -4 penalty to opposed ability checks to resist bull rush, trip, and overrun attempts, and are considered checked. Targets that fail their Reflex save but successfully resist the effects of the Air Blast can make a DC 15 Strength check to move out of the area of the gust.

Using an Air Blast in conjunction with this template requires a full-round action to initiate and maintain. An airbender can maintain a Sustained Gust for a number of rounds equal to his class level. An airbender can increase the maximum duration of a Sustained Gust by increasing the DC of the seed by +5 for every extra round.

Multidirectional Blast (Template) (or some catchier name)
Base DC: +20
This template can be applied to any targeted airbending seed or any area of effect seed that takes the shape of a line.
• Point of Origin: Using this application, an airbender can cause the selected airbending form to originate at any point within his bending range and proceed in any straight line he chooses, including vertical lines.
• Twists and Turns: Using this application, an airbender can cause the path of an airbending form to turn and twist. The path of the form may include a number of turns equal to half the airbender’s class level, with each turn having a maximum of 45 degrees. An airbender can increase the number of possible turns by increasing the DC of the form by +5 for every additional turn.
To summarize, I’m suggesting removing Engulfing Winds entirely and replacing it with these two seeds. Sustained Gust is relatively benign, though it can be useful for tying down a particularly dangerous opponent for a long period of time. Multidirectional Blast is potentially much more useful, allowing for maneuvers like this (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/102/539.jpg) as well as flinging opponents straight skyward or hurling flying opponents straight down.

Next, here’s my proposed clarification of the Tornado seed. It’s mostly just a re-write for clarity, but I added a section to explain how the tornado affects objects, to allow for maneuvers like this (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/105/617.jpg) from The King of Omashu and allow the airbender to choose the direction creatures and objects are flung.

Tornado
Base DC: 30
• Disperse: By manipulating air currents into a tight spiral, the Airbender can severely impede the movement of his/her foes. This form creates a tornado anywhere within 30 feet of the Airbender, which can be moved 40 feet per round as a move action, has a 5 foot radius, and may be up to 40 feet tall. Upon contact with a creature, the tornado stops moving, even if it has movement remaining that turn.

Creatures inside the tornado need to make a Reflex Save or be stunned for one round and flung 5 ft per level in a horizontal direction of the airbender’s choosing. Even if the creature passes the Reflex Save, he/she still moves at half speed until out of the tornado. Creatures that are larger than the tornado gain a +4 circumstance bonus to their reflex save. Objects inside the tornado are flung 5 ft per class level of the airbender in a direction of the airbender’s choosing.

The tornado lasts as long as the Airbender concentrates to maintain it (a standard action), up to a maximum number of turns equal to the Airbender’s class level. For every 10 the Airbending check exceeds the DC the height and width (at both top and bottom) of the tornado increases by 5ft.

• Capture: By manipulating air currents into a tight spiral, the Airbender can create a massive vortex of wind that forms as a tornado. This seed takes a full-round action to create a tornado around the airbender with a base 5ft wide and 15ft wide at the top and 30ft high. An airbender must remain within the radius of this tornado, and can move with the tornado at a rate equal to the airbender’s base land speed.

Whenever a creature of up to huge size or smaller occupies the same space as the tornado, that creature must succeed in a Reflex save. If the creature fails the Reflex save they are carried into the air along with the tornado, otherwise they take 2d6 damage. The creature is carried 5ft up on the first round and another 5ft every other round until it reaches the top. Each round the creature may make a Reflex save to exit the tornado at any square adjacent to the creature’s current location in the tornado. If the creature remains in tornado that creature takes 2d6 damage per round. Creatures in the tornado are considered prone and have total concealment. Additionally, the tornado protects all the occupants from projectile attacks as a Wind Wall spell.

The airbender may locate himself any where inside the 5ft wide section of the tornado and may change position as a swift action. The tornado takes a certain amount of concentration that takes a full-round action on the part of the airbender. If the airbender is hit by an attack, she must make an Airbending check to keep the tornado, otherwise the tornado disappears and the airbender is falls prone on the ground. For every 10 the Airbending check exceeds the DC the height and width (at both top and bottom) of the tornado increases by 5ft.
What do you think?

Mephibosheth

Pirate_King

2008-06-10, 05:26 PM

I really like the new templates, definitely increases the ability of the airbender to function like aang.

I vote make knowledge arcana a class skill for benders or make the spirit world stuff that it covers part of knowledge bending.

dman11235

2008-06-10, 09:40 PM

Well, I'm back now. I think I've let things simmer down long enough.

Water Whip: I’ve added a clause allowing Water Whip to threaten squares and be used for AoO’s. Additionally, creating a Water Whip is a move action that does not provoke an AoO, and I’ve added a clause stating that using a Water Whip in a threatened square does not provoke. I think that should take care of all issues except using Wisdom for attack rolls.

I’m still opposed to using Wisdom for attack rolls for Water Whips for many of the same reasons as when we last had this discussion. I don’t want to remove any more MAD from the system and the martial nature of the bending disciplines makes it completely reasonable that physical ability scores would be important, even for things like the Single Water Whip (which, were I DM, I’d call a combination of Water Blast or Water Whip and Pressure). Plus, any argument you could make for allowing Wisdom to govern attack rolls for Water Whip could be just as easily made for other seeds. I’d rather just draw the line and avoid the slippery slope.

You'll note that I changed my mind after reviewing my statements and the abilities. Dex makes sense. The threaten thing, well, that makes the seed useful now. Now that you point out that passage in the Ice Shards, well, I feel stupid, but it's still terrible without that added boost (the whip is a terrible weapon, what can I say?).

TWF Blasts: With the exception of firebenders, all of the bending blasts we’ve seen in the show have used both hands (or feet, in the case of many Earth Blasts). In most cases, benders seem to need both hands to perform a bending form. This is the main reason I’m reluctant to allow TWF for bending forms. I could see a firebender exception (perhaps a new class ability in the low to mid levels or a firebender-only feat), but I don’t support TWF for other benders. It’s not a “zomgTWFblastsarebroken” thing, it’s a “adhering to the canon of the show accurately” thing. And I’m not even going to touch the TWF/FoB/unarmed strikes debate.

Makes a little bit of sense, but note that TWF does NOT require the use of two hands. However, I see benders as needing their entire BODY, so there is no way that they'd be able to TWF (same thing goes for unarmed strikes btw). Rapid shot, sure. Faster bending, sure. Class features I support.

Ice Shards: What if we revamped the Weapon application completely? We could remove the part about making any wooden or metal weapon and simply state the statistics of the weapon created outright. I agree with Eighth_Seraph that we’ve never seen the seed used to make an actual weapon. They usually look more like pointy shards of ice. I’d say the Weapon application would deal 1d6 plus Strength piercing damage with maybe a little bit of cold, have a critical of 20/x2, and have the ability to be thrown with a 10 foot range increment. Increasing the DC could bump up the damage, alter the crucial range/multiplier, or possibly increase the range increment. This seems like a pretty contentious issue, so I’d like to know what people think about this idea. I remember re-writing this seed before, but I can’t for the life of me find the discussion in the thread.

Yes. This was one thing that I really liked about 4E, the weapons not being individual weapons, but they fit into categories. However this is 3.5, so that's not really applicable, but we can use the idea and create something a little better. And I say if they want to make a weapon, an actual weapon, Manipulate will let them.

Bending for non-benders: I’m still opposed, mainly because the philosophy behind the bending arts is one of discipline and training, and doesn’t seem to lend itself to dabbling. Plus, it’s just as easy to dip into a bending class as it is to take a feat or spend cross-class skill ranks, especially for NPC’s. I just think this is unnecessary and contrary to the philosophy of bending. Maybe in a non-canon game, but not in a canon one.

I agree, since it's a matter of training from the classes. It makes sense both canon and non-canon. However, others can study bending and derive some martial arts from it. This wouldn't allow bending, but it will allow forms inspired by the bending. Like the bending study feats. Only for non-benders. A good comparison to this is in OA with the different style feats, for reference. I think there are more in Dragon somewhere. Check Realms Help, they are the X Mastery I or II feats, the find function will help (assuming you have Firefox, not sure if IE has it).

As for skills, well, I think know (bending) would be a very viable new skill. I mean, skills are added all the time when necessary, and let's look at the knowledge skills:
arcana: things of arcane nature, magic, etc.
religion: deities, planar stuff (alignment based), etc. Orders fit under this the best (see the monk) btw
nature: wilderness, nature, animal, plants
geography: lands, regions, landforms
architecture and engineering: structures, etc
psionics: powers of the mind, things that utilize psionics
dungeoneering: underground, aberrations
planes: the planes themselves (the spirit world is the ethereal plane, btw)
nobility and royalty: nobles and royals, what'd you expect? (the most worthless one, btw)

Oh, and I forgot local. It doesn't exist in my mind. It's way too specific. And general at the same time. Knowledge skills in general are lame.

Back on topic now, I don't see many there that could fit bending. Religion is your best bet. So you could very easily stick it in there, like they did with monks and spiritualness in core. Now, if you create a new skill, knowledge (bending), you could maybe have it a little more general than that, and have it apply to all forms of martial art, the biggest of which would be bending (much like the biggest of all that arcana covers is arcane casters, butr it still covers magical beasts and supernatural abilities). This one skill could provide the bending you need, i.e., the checks are keyed off of this. In canon, you'd be restricted to only one class, and the avatar template (though I'm not so sure it should be a template, I feel that Aang is no more powerful than anyone else, he's just got the ability to multi-class, and should probably be a PrC instead. Though unique monsters are hard to determine what they are, especially when they're the same race as everything else). or you could leave it as-is and have the bending skill be specific to each class (waterbending, etc.). This option seems...different. On the one hand, I like it because multi-classing the bending classes is now better (you need that one class to advance the skill to its fullest) and on the other it adds more things to the game, and thus complicates things. Now I know that canon doesn't have multi-class benders aside from the avatar, but that's something to consider too here (the avatar). And as an added bonus it makes non-canon adaptation easier. The main advantages of the single knowledge skill are that it makes multi-classing easier, and doesn't introduce as many skills. The downsides are that knowledge skills are int based and that multi-classing is now a no-brainer, as you lose nothing bending power wise by doing it. Advantages of a new system that makes it a level check instead are no skill bonus manipulation (hello +30 ring!), easier calculations, and more balanced characters, especially multi-classed (you can even build it like the ToB system, where your bending level is your class level +1/2 your other levels, to represent continued training). Downsides are no skill manipulation (goodbye, +30 ring:smallfrown:), a need for a new class feature (yeah, tough, I know), and...that's all I got. The best part: you can introduce feats and items to replicate what you miss from it being a skill, and build it to suit your needs. This is, I believe the best option by far.

Ceiling009

2008-06-10, 11:02 PM

So has anyone thought about 4e conversions? I'd like to start that.

GrandDukeJerot

2008-06-10, 11:09 PM

4e conversion seems like it would be a lot of work. Would you come up with 4 different classes for Bending, or just make one huge one?

Also, I was wondering if you would consider making feats like the Bending Study for non-benders? I was thinking since bending is heavily based on martial arts, martial styles might use a lot of influence from bending in the Avatar universe.

Uthug

2008-06-10, 11:19 PM

Sorry for raising something unrelated to the current discussion but for many of the waterbender seeds, for example tentacle and shield, it doesn't seem required for the waterbender to spend actions to maintain control of the water used for the seed. An example I could think of would be the use of tentacles to attack; as I understand it, once formed, the tentacles are completely independant of the waterbender in terms of actions and stuff, am I right?

Ceiling009

2008-06-11, 01:15 AM

Actually, about the 4 different classes... no, you wouldn't. You'd only make one class; it's at wills, encounters, and dailies will have secondary effects tied to elements and philosophy style.

dman11235

2008-06-11, 10:35 AM

Agreed. Though it would require an entirely new project, so I say we wait on it for a while still. Until more stuff comes out, or possibly an errata to the current bit (it needs it badly, surprisingly enough. I guess that's what you get for rushing a release and not listening to your play testers), there is little to work with, and it will be harder to make balanced classes.

@Uthug: tentacle does state that you must use a full round action to maintain it.

Mephibosheth

2008-06-11, 11:03 AM

I agree, since it's a matter of training from the classes. It makes sense both canon and non-canon. However, others can study bending and derive some martial arts from it. This wouldn't allow bending, but it will allow forms inspired by the bending. Like the bending study feats. Only for non-benders. A good comparison to this is in OA with the different style feats, for reference. I think there are more in Dragon somewhere. Check Realms Help, they are the X Mastery I or II feats, the find function will help (assuming you have Firefox, not sure if IE has it).

The idea of expanding the "X bending study" feats to non-benders has been proposed, but nothing solid ever came of it. What sort of abilities would you suggest.

As for skills, well, I think know (bending) would be a very viable new skill. I mean, skills are added all the time when necessary, and let's look at the knowledge skills:
arcana: things of arcane nature, magic, etc.
religion: deities, planar stuff (alignment based), etc. Orders fit under this the best (see the monk) btw
nature: wilderness, nature, animal, plants
geography: lands, regions, landforms
architecture and engineering: structures, etc
psionics: powers of the mind, things that utilize psionics
dungeoneering: underground, aberrations
planes: the planes themselves (the spirit world is the ethereal plane, btw)
nobility and royalty: nobles and royals, what'd you expect? (the most worthless one, btw)

Oh, and I forgot local. It doesn't exist in my mind. It's way too specific. And general at the same time. Knowledge skills in general are lame.

Back on topic now, I don't see many there that could fit bending. Religion is your best bet. So you could very easily stick it in there, like they did with monks and spiritualness in core. Now, if you create a new skill, knowledge (bending), you could maybe have it a little more general than that, and have it apply to all forms of martial art, the biggest of which would be bending (much like the biggest of all that arcana covers is arcane casters, butr it still covers magical beasts and supernatural abilities). This one skill could provide the bending you need, i.e., the checks are keyed off of this. In canon, you'd be restricted to only one class, and the avatar template (though I'm not so sure it should be a template, I feel that Aang is no more powerful than anyone else, he's just got the ability to multi-class, and should probably be a PrC instead. Though unique monsters are hard to determine what they are, especially when they're the same race as everything else). or you could leave it as-is and have the bending skill be specific to each class (waterbending, etc.). This option seems...different. On the one hand, I like it because multi-classing the bending classes is now better (you need that one class to advance the skill to its fullest) and on the other it adds more things to the game, and thus complicates things. Now I know that canon doesn't have multi-class benders aside from the avatar, but that's something to consider too here (the avatar). And as an added bonus it makes non-canon adaptation easier. The main advantages of the single knowledge skill are that it makes multi-classing easier, and doesn't introduce as many skills. The downsides are that knowledge skills are int based and that multi-classing is now a no-brainer, as you lose nothing bending power wise by doing it. Advantages of a new system that makes it a level check instead are no skill bonus manipulation (hello +30 ring!), easier calculations, and more balanced characters, especially multi-classed (you can even build it like the ToB system, where your bending level is your class level +1/2 your other levels, to represent continued training). Downsides are no skill manipulation (goodbye, +30 ring:smallfrown:), a need for a new class feature (yeah, tough, I know), and...that's all I got. The best part: you can introduce feats and items to replicate what you miss from it being a skill, and build it to suit your needs. This is, I believe the best option by far.

Note that the website has a page that includes a re-write of the Knowledge skills and includes Knowledge (Bending). It's a class skill for all bending classes.

I don't think I'm in favor of basing bending abilities off Knowledge (Bending). the Knowledge skill represents an understanding of the philosophies behind bending, whereas the Bending skill represents proficiency with the actual application of those philosophies and with the physical maneuvers necessary to bend. Even in a non-canon game, you have to work within the general framework of the world, which includes substantial philosophical differences between the four bending arts. To me, this means separate bending skills.

I hope that addresses your issues, I will admit I got kinda lost in that last huge paragraph.

So has anyone thought about 4e conversions? I'd like to start that.

It's been mentioned a couple of times, but it was decided to wait until more people are more familiar with the 4e rules. I don't even have access to the books yet, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Sorry for raising something unrelated to the current discussion but for many of the waterbender seeds, for example tentacle and shield, it doesn't seem required for the waterbender to spend actions to maintain control of the water used for the seed. An example I could think of would be the use of tentacles to attack; as I understand it, once formed, the tentacles are completely independant of the waterbender in terms of actions and stuff, am I right?

Like Dman said, tentacle requires a full-round action on the part of the Waterbender to control and maintain.

Any other comments on my new and revised seeds? I'd like to hear positive reviews or criticisms from a few more people before I add them.

Mephibosheth

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-11, 02:04 PM

I have fallen in love with Multidirectional Blast. The name stinks, though. We need to change that. The new Tornado write up is great, too, though I think it would be best if we removed the clause stating that it stops upon coming in contact with a creature, for two reasons. First, I can't think of any justification for that other than balance reasons. Second, how cool would it be too send a Huge-sized Tornado into a bunch of mooks in a tight phalanx? But then the balance issue comes up. I would also suggest rules for increasing the radius of the tornado. It should be exceedingly difficult, but oh so satisfying to overbend. Something simple, like:

Enhancement: Using either of its functions, an airbender may increase the radius of the tornado's base by 5 feet by adding +10 to the Airbending check.

On the topic of 4e; where's the SRD for it? I did the grand majority of the work for the 3e version using nothing but d20SRD.

Mephibosheth

2008-06-11, 02:55 PM

I have fallen in love with Multidirectional Blast. The name stinks, though. We need to change that.
I agree whole-heartedly, but I couldn't think of anything better. Any suggestions? Maybe "Sideswiping Blast" or "Flexible Blast?" None of these are really any better, though...

The new Tornado write up is great, too, though I think it would be best if we removed the clause stating that it stops upon coming in contact with a creature, for two reasons. First, I can't think of any justification for that other than balance reasons. Second, how cool would it be too send a Huge-sized Tornado into a bunch of mooks in a tight phalanx? But then the balance issue comes up. I would also suggest rules for increasing the radius of the tornado. It should be exceedingly difficult, but oh so satisfying to overbend. Something simple, like:

Enhancement: Using either of its functions, an airbender may increase the radius of the tornado's base by 5 feet by adding +10 to the Airbending check.

I edited the description (for both applications) to include similar language. It was already there for the "capture" application, but I changed the DC and added it for the "disperse" application as well.

On the topic of 4e; where's the SRD for it? I did the grand majority of the work for the 3e version using nothing but d20SRD.

From what I've been able to tell, there won't be an SRD like there was for 3.5 The 4e SRD will supposedly be more like an index of content to aid other publishers in creating 4e-compatible sourcebooks. I don't have any idea how comprehensive it will be. IMHO it's a bad business decision on the part of WotC to jettison with the 3.5-style SRD, but that's a different issue entirely.

Mephibosheth

Guyr Adamantine

2008-06-11, 03:18 PM

One thing about the new and improved Tornado that quite don't fly: it says it creates a tornado within 30 ft. from the airbender. It should be inside your bending range!

Lord Omberous

2008-06-11, 03:48 PM

Throw a Rock? Really? Can we get a better name for this?

Thistle

2008-06-11, 04:06 PM

If your talking about the Move a Rock ability, that's actually a reference from "Bitter Work".

Mephibosheth

2008-06-11, 04:48 PM

One thing about the new and improved Tornado that quite don't fly: it says it creates a tornado within 30 ft. from the airbender. It should be inside your bending range!

I'm actually of the opposite opinion. The only time I can remember actually seeing an airbender make a tornado, to was either around or adjacent to him. Here I reference The King of Omashu when Aang made a giant tornado to redirect a boulder tossed by King Bumi. If I were to change it to accurately reflect the show, I'd say the tornado has to start adjacent to the airbender or sharing his square. What says the community?

Throw a Rock? Really? Can we get a better name for this?

I agree. It is something of a lame name if taken in isolation. However, to reinforce Thistle's completely correct explanation, I quote the episode transcript (http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/transcripts.php?ep=209) for Bitter Work (Season 2, Episode 9)

Aang: So what move are you going to teach me first "Rockalanche" (He shoves his fist down to illustrate the move.) "the trembler" (He pretends like he’s has someone in a hold and trembles slightly.) Oh! Maybe I can learn to make a whirlpool out of land!

(He holds his arms up and spins around. Toph slaps a hand on his chest to stop him.)

Toph: Let’s start with “move a rock”.

(She walks offscreen.)

Aang: Sounds good! Sounds good!

Finally, here's my proposal for a re-written Ice Shards Weapon application.

A waterbender can create a rough melee weapon by molding a relatively small quantity of water into a large, sharp shard as a full-round action. This weapon deals 1d6 points of piercing damage plus 1d4 points of cold damage and has a critical rating of 20/x2. It counts as a light weapon, can be used in conjunction with any weapon-based feat for which it qualifies, and can be thrown with a range increment of 10 ft. By increasing the base DC by +5, the waterbender can increase the base damage dice of the weapon by one step (max 1d10), increase the critical range by 1 (max 15-20), or increase the critical multiplier by 1 (max x3). If the weapon ever leaves the waterbender’s possession, it begins to melt as normal ice would.
What says the community?

Mephibosheth

dman11235

2008-06-11, 09:18 PM

*grmbles at the lack of a multi-quote application*

Finally, here's my proposal for a re-written Ice Shards Weapon application.

A waterbender can create a rough melee weapon by molding a relatively small quantity of water into a large, sharp shard as a full-round action. This weapon deals 1d6 points of piercing damage plus 1d4 points of cold damage and has a critical rating of 20/x2. It counts as a light weapon, can be used in conjunction with any weapon-based feat for which it qualifies, and can be thrown with a range increment of 10 ft. By increasing the base DC by +5, the waterbender can increase the base damage dice of the weapon by one step (max 1d10), increase the critical range by 1 (max 15-20), or increase the critical multiplier by 1 (max x3). If the weapon ever leaves the waterbender’s possession, it begins to melt as normal ice would.
What says the community?

Hmm, I think you shouldn't cap the damage. Also note that 1d10 is never actually reached by increasing dice size like that. It goes from 1d6-2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6-8d6-12d6 and so on. Looking at it, assuming no competence ring (either by canon (no magic items) or by a different skill method) you can get up to about 12d6, forgoing any other benefit. Hmm, that actually is quite high for this. Maybe if you increased the amount necessary to up the damage? A +10 to up it bring the max level 20 damage to 4d6, which is too low (not really worth it, I'll use those extra bonuses to do something more impressive, like attaching a wave to it or something equally impressive). Eh, I'm just thinking out loud. Take it how you like.

Note that the website has a page that includes a re-write of the Knowledge skills and includes Knowledge (Bending). It's a class skill for all bending classes.

I don't think I'm in favor of basing bending abilities off Knowledge (Bending). the Knowledge skill represents an understanding of the philosophies behind bending, whereas the Bending skill represents proficiency with the actual application of those philosophies and with the physical maneuvers necessary to bend. Even in a non-canon game, you have to work within the general framework of the world, which includes substantial philosophical differences between the four bending arts. To me, this means separate bending skills.

I hope that addresses your issues, I will admit I got kinda lost in that last huge paragraph.

I was throwing out possible options for the skill piece. Since it is not good form to make a class rely on a specific skill, thus forcing it to spend skill points on it, and increasing the need for intelligence and eliminating possible options, the bending level fix is very good looking. This, however, does suffer some problems of its own, which I outlined. That was mainly as a tossing out of three ideas of directions that system can go in. Yes two of them are changes, but neither are very big changes, the biggest of which eliminates the requirement of a feat (thus reducing feat starvation, though giving it as a bonus feat could solve that dilemma) and just requires a small change to the class description and bending overview. The knowledge thing, well, I reasoned my way to determining that the best way to do that was the way you have it, though a little more general (encompass ALL martial arts and not just bending, because bending is a form of martial arts).

For the record, I too am against know (bend) as the driving force. It's too shaky IMO. Also it greatly helps multi-class benders (like the Avatar in canon, and outside canon multi-class benders). Now, the separate bending skill thing is also bad IMO, since it forces the expenditure of your precious skill points, which are greatly needed elsewhere, and you run into one of the main problems with the monk. The BL option I outlined (Bending Level is your bender class level +1/2 other levels) fixes both of these problems. That's one of its biggest advantages.

I'm actually of the opposite opinion. The only time I can remember actually seeing an airbender make a tornado, to was either around or adjacent to him. Here I reference The King of Omashu when Aang made a giant tornado to redirect a boulder tossed by King Bumi. If I were to change it to accurately reflect the show, I'd say the tornado has to start adjacent to the airbender or sharing his square. What says the community?

I say let them move the tornado, but it must start in the bender's square. I think that because Aang wasn't always in the center, it is indicative of it not being restricted to that circumstance. And no, it's not overpowered, it just requires one hefty skill check to do.

Guyr Adamantine

2008-06-11, 09:35 PM

A new name for Multidirectionnal Blast: Snake Blast.

It twists and twirl around the obstacles, so it fits, right?

GrandDukeJerot

2008-06-11, 10:13 PM

A new name for Multidirectionnal Blast: Snake Blast.

It twists and twirl around the obstacles, so it fits, right?

Cool Idea, how about Snaking Blast or Serpentine Blast (Building off the snake idea.) Those seem a little less 'Snake' and more like winding and twirling.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-11, 10:38 PM

Hmm, I think you shouldn't cap the damage. Also note that 1d10 is never actually reached by increasing dice size like that. It goes from 1d6-2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6-8d6-12d6 and so on. Looking at it, assuming no competence ring (either by canon (no magic items) or by a different skill method) you can get up to about 12d6, forgoing any other benefit. Hmm, that actually is quite high for this. [...] Eh, I'm just thinking out loud. Take it how you like. Actually, damage dice go 1-1d2-1d3-1d4-1d6-1d8-1d10-1d12. The idea isn't to make the shards a replacement for a good Masterwork weapon, but rather to make them not suck quite as much if you're forced into a corner and need a melee weapon. I like the new write-up, it's what it should have been months ago.

Also, Meph, remember the Sustained Training thing. There's probably a better name for it, but it would eliminate the benders' dependency on skill points for the most basic of their abilities.

On the topic of untrained bending, I, as you all know by now, don't think it works for the canon game, but I think we should make rules for it anyway. Useful quasi-canon rules can be added to the website as our own little Unearthed Arcana, in case people are interested in doing things differently. For example, I greatly support the Avatar as a template, like we have it now (suits the Canon of the show better than anything I could've thought up); but there have been many people that suggest it as a PrC. What do you all think?

It twists and twirl around the obstacles, so it fits, right?
Cool Idea, how about Snaking Blast or Serpentine Blast (Building off the snake idea.) Those seem a little less 'Snake' and more like winding and twirling. How about simply "Serpentine"? It is a template after all. Templates are to forms as adjectives are to sentences.

dman11235

2008-06-11, 11:00 PM

Check out the DMG, page...not sure (it's in there, the expanded version). Or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize). From medium 1d6 it goes to..oh, 1d8 then 2d6, my bad, but after that I was right. The expanded version in the DMG is where you can extrapolate the continued progression, mostly only useful for monks, as they can get their base medium damage up to 16d8 if you get the right combo of PrCs in there.

Untrained bending: well, I support non-bending, but bending inspired martial arts. It's martial arts inspired by bending inspired by martial arts! Though this can be a simple as a group of already existing feats. And is, really, see OA for details. It has fighting styles, and feats that go with them. Just input desired flavor and you're set! Maybe a tactical feat or four to give an added bonus for taking a bunch of feats letting you replicate bending without bending, or just the fighting style, much in the same way OA did it.

Pirate_King

2008-06-11, 11:55 PM

I think it would make the most sense if it increased in damage as better weapons, rather than a bigger person: 1d6 - 2d4 - 1d8 - 1d10 - 1d12 - 2d6, but that could be annoying to set down in a table just for one seed. perhaps we should just leave it at a d6, and only increase damage by 1 point steps, and this extra damage is cold? maybe even start with a d4, depending on how much water you've actually got. like seraph said, this would mainly be a utility, if a waterbender got in a tight spot and needed a weapon and had little water.

and the multi-directional blast, how about Four Winds?

dman11235

2008-06-12, 07:45 AM

Increasing it as better weapons is increasing the dice size, which follows the weapon size guidelines. Unless you create a new determining factor then that's what you should use. Now, 1d6+1d6/5 would be balanced. That gets you a maximum of 7d6 at level 20. Or you could say that it deals blast damage, and have this just add cold damage at a rate of 1d4/5. I like that one. I don't like your increase chart. First off, it gets weaker from 2d4-1d8 (same max, higher min). Secondly, there is so little difference between 1d6 and 2d6 that at that level, it is totally not worth it.

Mephibosheth

2008-06-12, 09:07 AM

OK, here's a re-write of Ice Shards (weapon) with the actual weapon size increase values taken into consideration:

A waterbender can create a rough melee weapon by molding a relatively small quantity of water into a large, sharp shard as a full-round action. This weapon deals 1d6 points of piercing damage plus 1d4 points of cold damage and has a critical rating of 20/x2. It counts as a light weapon, can be used in conjunction with any weapon-based feat for which it qualifies, and can be thrown with a range increment of 10 ft. By increasing the base DC by +10, the waterbender can increase the base damage dice of the weapon by one step (max 2d6). If the weapon ever leaves the waterbender’s possession, it begins to melt as normal ice would.
I don't know how popular or unpopular this will be, but I removed the ability to alter the critical range and multiplier. That implies a degree of control over the shard that I don't think (on a second consideration) is appropriate. Should I put it back?

I think, of all the options, I like Four Winds the best for the new name. I think that the "Point of Origin" application is more useful, and Four Winds points to that application. However, if everyone else likes Serpentine or derivation thereof, I'll use that.

Also, Meph, remember the Sustained Training thing. There's probably a better name for it, but it would eliminate the benders' dependency on skill points for the most basic of their abilities.
So, the basic idea is that at each level, you give the bender 1 free skill point that can only be allocated to a Bending skill? What do people think of this as a solution?

Guyr Adamantine

2008-06-12, 09:25 AM

Guyr Adamantine approves of all your suggestions, Meph.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-12, 02:50 PM

Guyr Adamantine approves of all your suggestions, Meph. As does Seraph. Four Winds is a great name. +10 seems a bit high for a single weapon damage step. How about +5, assuming it goes d6, 2d4, d8, etc.

So, the basic idea is that at each level, you give the bender 1 free skill point that can only be allocated to a Bending skill? Pretty much, except that the bender receives four ranks at first level. In other words, if a bender never multiclasses, her bending skill will always be maxed out, for free.

dman11235

2008-06-12, 04:19 PM

I don't like that skill thing. It's tacky in my mind. If you do that, you might as well just do the class level+wis thing like the Binder that I suggested earlier, and eliminate the possible problems with skill related increases. You could even add in a new feat or two to replace Skill Focus if you wanted to.

Also, I really don't like that damage progression of Ice Shards. It's not worth it. With that small of an increase, you'd have to make it +1 DC. Oh, and it wouldn't go 1d6-2d4-1d8, did you just look at the weapon chart and go down the medium column (cause 2d4 is slightly better than 1d8)? If you increase weapon dice size, it will follow 1d6-1d8-2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6, etc. If you use blast damage, it will be set already. If you create a new system, I suggest +5 DC for +1d6 damage, uncapped for all of them. I know I won't pay +5 DC for an average of +1.5 damage, then MINUS .5 damage for the next +5 DC. Note that +1d6 is still a little weak, as damage dice aren't usually a good source of damage, but the way this goes up you can get a decent amount.

Pirate_King

2008-06-12, 05:24 PM

Oh, and it wouldn't go 1d6-2d4-1d8, did you just look at the weapon chart and go down the medium column (cause 2d4 is slightly better than 1d8)?

that's exactly what I did, because it makes the most sense. it would represent the bender making a slightly better weapon (even though my previous arguments state that you can only do so much with a sword made out of ice. I still think it's silly). What in game is actually making it do more damage? is it just bigger? colder? there are clear limits there. Putting it on the blast die doesn't make any sense at all. I say if we keep this clause at all, it should be what meph just put down, with the cap.

I'd be for changing skill to level+wis, but it would involve recalculating a bunch of DC's, and the sustained training is an easy fix for the dead level problem.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-12, 09:09 PM

I ditto everything P. King said.

Guyr Adamantine

2008-06-12, 09:46 PM

I ditto everything P. King said.

Again, I approve, but I dislike removing the skill. Dman calls for the brokennes of skill-boosting items in a non-Canon setting, but I disagree. The only purpose of these items will be to bring the benders on par with the others, just like every class has great items to pick in the list.

dman11235

2008-06-12, 09:52 PM

Changing it to level+wis wouldn't involve changing very many DCs at ALL, especially if you add in a couple feats that give you a boost to your bending bonus. Or a class feature that gives you a small boost every so often, fills in the dead levels too.

You realize that 2d4 is better damage than 1d8, right? And that the difference in average damage between your max and the original is 3.5, right? Are you honestly going to increase the DC by 25 just for a +3.5 average damage boost? Also, I gave more than just the blast damage suggestion (though I think that one is particularly nice: it gets stronger, it already has a progression we can key it off of, and it doesn't needlessly increase the DC), including one for +1d6/+5 DC. Which gives you +17.5 average damage for +25 DC. Not a meaningless amount. Small, but not meaningless. The other suggestion was the increase in dice size, as Fist of the Forest, Empty Hand Mastery, and Initiate of Draconic Mysteries does for monk unarmed damage. This one is considerably more powerful, as damage dice size increases exponentially. The final suggestion I gave was the dealing blast damage and having the increased DC increase the amount of cold damage it dealt as well.

What is making it do more damage is the better skill you have, thus able to make a better "sword". The dealing blast damage plays off this really nicely. Another thing that makes it deal more damage is it getting colder. Another thing that plays off the blast damage nicely.

EDIT: I'm not calling out the brokenness of competence rings in non-canon, I'm pointing out the various problems with skill based mechanics, most of which apply in canon as well as non-canon, and one of the biggest offenders is only available non-canon. Skill Focus still exists in canon. See my arguments above for details. Also, Truenamers sort of give skill based systems a very bad name.

Guyr Adamantine

2008-06-12, 10:14 PM

Truenamers depends on the HD of their targets, which grows exponentially as the levels go up. That's what break them.

dman11235

2008-06-13, 08:49 AM

HD is not the only method of true naming. That is definitely a part of the early level brokeness though. It's one reason that this system isn't blatantly broken. It just doesn't work as well as it could.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-13, 11:09 AM

Changing it to level+wis wouldn't involve changing very many DCs at ALL, especially if you add in a couple feats that give you a boost to your bending bonus. Or a class feature that gives you a small boost every so often, fills in the dead levels too. I'm not completely opposed to this, since it does sound like a possible fix, but I would prefer to keep the Bending ability as a skill for a number of reasons. 1) It's my baby, alright? I have an emotional investment in the Bending skills. *sniff* 2) A skill fits the flavor pretty well, I think. It's something that you can learn the basics of and then improve on your own. Granted, that's what alot of classes are, too; but by keeping the Bending ability as a skill, a multiclassed character can continue to put ranks in the skill without getting new seeds. That seems to fit the flavor of benders rather well. 3) Skills can get things like Circumstance modifiers that seem appropriate for this system, as in things like the full moon for waterbenders or other specific situations. It's less confusing to just take an existing mechanism and apply it rather than make a mirror image of it and have it not be a skill.

Again, I wouldn't mind terribly to change the system to rely on the character's level, but I would much prefer the system as it is now.

You realize that 2d4 is better damage than 1d8, right? And that the difference in average damage between your max and the original is 3.5, right? Are you honestly going to increase the DC by 25 just for a +3.5 average damage boost? Also, I gave more than just the blast damage suggestion (though I think that one is particularly nice: it gets stronger, it already has a progression we can key it off of, and it doesn't needlessly increase the DC), including one for +1d6/+5 DC. Which gives you +17.5 average damage for +25 DC. Not a meaningless amount. Small, but not meaningless. The other suggestion was the increase in dice size, as Fist of the Forest, Empty Hand Mastery, and Initiate of Draconic Mysteries does for monk unarmed damage. This one is considerably more powerful, as damage dice size increases exponentially. The final suggestion I gave was the dealing blast damage and having the increased DC increase the amount of cold damage it dealt as well.

What is making it do more damage is the better skill you have, thus able to make a better "sword". The dealing blast damage plays off this really nicely. Another thing that makes it deal more damage is it getting colder. Another thing that plays off the blast damage nicely. But you're missing the entire point, Dman. They're daggers. Made of ice. Maybe even a sword made of ice if your DM approves it. But it's still simple ice being swung and jabbed like melee weapon. At most the ice can do as much damage as a melee weapon would. All of these ways that you're suggesting of making the damage done by the daggers worthwhile is all quite sound mechanically, but doesn't make any sense in terms of the series. The seed makes shards of ice that are held in the hand and used as simple melee weapons, not a magical blade through which the bender channels her power. Thus, they will deal damage as a shard of ice would.

dman11235

2008-06-13, 03:28 PM

...Bending ability as a skill, a multiclassed character can continue to put ranks in the skill without getting new seeds.

That's why I suggested the bending level equaling your bending class level+1/2 your other levels. It also solves a problem with the Avatar and multi-classed benders in that the Avatar is no longer skill staved, and multi-class benders are now feasible (non-canon only, of course)

3) Skills can get things like Circumstance modifiers that seem appropriate for this system, as in things like the full moon for waterbenders or other specific situations.

You can give circumstance bonuses to things other than skills. I'm not sure of any existing ones right now, maybe one for attacks (higher ground maybe?) but they are definitely possible. Keep that in mind.

But you're missing the entire point, Dman. They're daggers. Made of ice. Maybe even a sword made of ice if your DM approves it. But it's still simple ice being swung and jabbed like melee weapon. At most the ice can do as much damage as a melee weapon would. All of these ways that you're suggesting of making the damage done by the daggers worthwhile is all quite sound mechanically, but doesn't make any sense in terms of the series. The seed makes shards of ice that are held in the hand and used as simple melee weapons, not a magical blade through which the bender channels her power. Thus, they will deal damage as a shard of ice would.

I was assuming that as you gained power, then you'd be able to make better weapons. Though I kind of agree, you shouldn't be able to make better weapons. I mean, you make it, and what, you make it...stronger? That's hardness/HP. Bigger? That's size of weapon. Thicker? That's HP. Colder? That one works. I'm actually more in support of leaving it at 1d6 and having the only damage boost be cold damage than anything else. Though my best suggestions if you want physical damage boosts are the dealing blast damage or the +1d6/+5 DC ones. My preference on that is the deal blast damage. Mainly because you don't channel your power. You make it. You can make it well, so you might be able to gain an attack bonus (in the form of an enhancement bonus, a la Masterwork weapons) but it wouldn't gain in base damage.

jagadaishio

2008-06-13, 04:41 PM

I'm opposed to the bending being changed away from a skill. In the playtests and the Avatar d20 campaigns that have been active, a few of which I have been a participant of, there has not been even the slightest hiccup of a problem in the skill system. As the colloquialism goes, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.'

Which brings us to a topic which actually does need some adjustment. I am with dman11235 (I just realized that the 11235 were digits of the Fibonacci sequence and had to include them) when it comes to the damage of the ice shard weapons. 1d6 makes sense as a basic damage which wouldn't really change with level. It's a chunk of ice, and if they don't have the control to change the critical range or multiplier, they probably wouldn't have the capacity to alter it enough to change the damage without making it far too large to wield properly. Remember, it's not as if they have time to make it a large weapon with the proper balance to actually use it, they have to just make a medium-sized shard.

I think that it should be 1d6 20x2 with a 10 ft thrown range. I also think that the cold damage should scale with +1d4 per +10 to the DC. The point isn't to make something that can deal the damage of a blast, nor is it to have something that can do attacks of opportunity (which the whip can do now too). It's to have something that can do a moderate amount of damage and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity to use. And at level 20, according to the chart on page one, the average bender starting with 14 wisdom can hit a DC 42 with a 10, meaning that the average damage would be 1d6+4d4 cold, which is more than reasonable, but doesn't even close to replace the blast.

As for tornado, I've always thought that tornado should be merged into the Cyclone portion of the Stormwinds seed. Moving the tornado around would just be making a form of Stormwinds(Cyclone)+Wind Shaping.

On that note, I think that Wind Shaping should have a clause which it doesn't right now. It should allow for the direction of current winds to be changed and for lasting wind effects to be moved (something which isn't included right now). I also don't think that there is an addendum in there which would allow for cloudshaping, as in the Fortuneteller episode.

What does the playground think?

dman11235

2008-06-13, 05:44 PM

If it ain't broke (wait, Firefox recognizes 'ain't'?), don't fix it, but if it will be broke, then pay attention. All my past experiences point towards skill based "casting" mechanisms not working like their supposed to, so that's why I'm leery of this being skill based. And since binders and martial adepts work great, why not take something that DOES work? Though I am willing to trust your experience with this system if it does work.

Yay! You are the second person to announce that they figured it out! That was the entire reason I chose dman11235 as opposed to something else. Just call me dman for short.

I think I like your start on Ice Shards, but I don't see a problem with it being /5 DC on the cold damage. This is trading range for damage IMO. You would add str to damage though, since you are actually wielding it. Your str of...+1. Or +0. Anyways, it's like the Eldritch Blast vs Eldritch Glaive. EG gives up the protection of staying away from battle for an increase in damage output (via more attacks). EB stays viable since it can be used at distance, while EG cannot. One question, do you agree with the crit stuff? I think increasing the crit modifier and threat range would be perfectly acceptable things, since they are a result of the quality of the weapon, unlike base damage.

I'm not sure what I think on the Tornado dilemma. I'll have to go over it again, but as for cloud shaping? Manipulate. Thus it works for both air and water bending, and if you're REALLY good, fire (create heat to cause up drafts and down drafts in the right spots). Maybe Earth if you use earth to for currents to move. Though that's not cloud shaping as a direct result of fire.

Pirate_King

2008-06-13, 05:47 PM

That's why I suggested the bending level equaling your bending class level+1/2 your other levels. It also solves a problem with the Avatar and multi-classed benders in that the Avatar is no longer skill staved, and multi-class benders are now feasible (non-canon only, of course)

now that seraph brings up that you can still add ranks to it when you multiclass, I'm rethinking my stance on it. adding half your other levels is an unnecessary complication. you're just saying this because "sustained training" sounds cheesy? c'mon. it's not a big enough deal to add more math.

I like the sword fix to make it 1d6 + more cold damage for higher DC's. It's enough. blast damage doesn't make sense because higher level water benders aren't better at using a sword made of water, they're better at waterbending, which means they're better at making the sword, but you can only make a sword so good. especially, as I've said before, if it's made of ice. I promise, this is the last I will comment on this seed.

On that note, I think that Wind Shaping should have a clause which it doesn't right now. It should allow for the direction of current winds to be changed and for lasting wind effects to be moved (something which isn't included right now). I also don't think that there is an addendum in there which would allow for cloudshaping, as in the Fortuneteller episode.

That could part of the full round action, through the sustained gust template?

jagadaishio

2008-06-13, 06:13 PM

The Airbender is unique in that it doesn't really have a clearly defined "manipulate" style seed. Check it out, it's unusual.

dman11235

2008-06-13, 09:52 PM

IMO Wind Shaping should be general enough. I mean, if not you guys need to add a new seed that all air benders get to cover all of the times Aang just makes small breezes. And the clouds.

Just to be clear, the Sustained Training thing is the bending classes granting a free skill point to put into the correct bending discipline, right?

jagadaishio

2008-06-13, 09:59 PM

Right now all that Wind Shaping can do is push things away from the Airbender and move small things around as Mage Hand. I just think it needs a clause saying it can change wind directions and can move persisting air effects around at a rate consistent with Manipulate, Play with Fire, and Move a Rock.

dman11235

2008-06-13, 10:14 PM

Push things...as in air?

But I agree, a clause like that would be a very good, yet minor, addition to make it reflect canon more accurately.

In other news, I hate my keyboard.

Guyr Adamantine

2008-06-13, 11:04 PM

Push things...as in air?

But I agree, a clause like that would be a very good, yet minor, addition to make it reflect canon more accurately.

More precise mechanics can only help.

In other news, I hate my keyboard.

Amen, brother. Welcome to my world.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-14, 09:17 AM

I think that it should be 1d6 20x2 with a 10 ft thrown range. I also think that the cold damage should scale with +1d4 per +10 to the DC. The point isn't to make something that can deal the damage of a blast, nor is it to have something that can do attacks of opportunity (which the whip can do now too). It's to have something that can do a moderate amount of damage and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity to use. And at level 20, according to the chart on page one, the average bender starting with 14 wisdom can hit a DC 42 with a 10, meaning that the average damage would be 1d6+4d4 cold, which is more than reasonable, but doesn't even close to replace the blast. Hrm...I guess I'm okay with that. That's borderline, though. The thing is that if we set this precedent, now we've reverted back to the times when we had supernaturally cold ice (The original Heat/Cool could make ice that was super-cold and did extra cold damage). Not necessarily a bad thing, but it feels like a wild card in an already precarious position.

For example, what if a bender makes two daggers on two separate turns that each deal 3d4 cold damage, then makes a third, and decides to launch them using Ice Shards (Ranged)? It passes my common sense test, but would deal 9d4 cold damage, on top of the normal damage. I don't like it. We have no evidence that benders can make supernaturally cold ice, and I'd rather not be the one to set the precedent.

As for tornado, I've always thought that tornado should be merged into the Cyclone portion of the Stormwinds seed. Moving the tornado around would just be making a form of Stormwinds(Cyclone)+Wind Shaping. I'm not so sure about this one. The Cyclone function might be a bit of a misnomer, since I'm seeing it as an equivalent to a personalized Wind Wall spell made out of violent wind. It fits the Stormwinds (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/211/717.jpg) seed well enough, methinks; though it does kind of step on Tornado's toes. I'd rather keep the function where it is, but make it a 5-foot sphere (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/211/728.jpg) instead of a 40-foot funnel.

dman11235

2008-06-14, 09:27 AM

Wouldn't Ice Shards (ranged) overlap the daggers damage? And if the ice leaves the bender's hands, it acts normally, so after throwing it, common sense would dictate that it starts melting. Also, throwing it would require an attack action.

Though I agree, extra damage is not something necessary to this seed, nor is it a reasonable fighting style addition. The problem is balance though, and if it doesn't increase in damage somehow, it loses its advantage over other seeds (way I see it, this is the seed that makes the WB do damage, as opposed to the constructs the WB makes).

I don't know. I'll have to think about it some more.

jagadaishio

2008-06-14, 12:26 PM

It is good to remember, though, that we aren't making a new "weapon" seed, we're just elaborating on the uses of an already fantastically useful seed. Ice shards. Also, what action would it take to maintain one of these weapons? Ice is brittle naturally, and unless it's actually being maintained, it would stand to reason that it would revert to its basic nation.

dman11235

2008-06-14, 02:41 PM

Well, it wouldn't be TOO hard, so I say swift action each round. Same DC for 5 rounds, then +2 DC for each additional round. Or maybe you can give the seed yet another useful augment, and have it be a move action each round, +5 DC to the seed for swift action, then +5 more for free action on your turn. Lasts for 3 rounds, then +2 or 3 DC for each additional round, spend an extra 5 on the DC at the start to increase the no-increase duration by a round (after the maintaining bit).

Just a couple ideas.

Willbe

2008-06-14, 08:33 PM

I'm not sure if this is where I should post this, so I'm hoping someone will redirect me if it isn't.

I was wondering about the stat basis for the bending, too. But especially in light of The Firebending Masters, wouldn't it make sense to base firebending on charisma?

After all, it is passion that gives fire its power in the Avatar world, whether that is rage (And a desire to destroy) or love (and a desire to protect).

Firebenders actually create flame, so I wouldn't consider it as much about wisdom (And an understanding of what is) as the other bending disciplines.
It is about the inner self and what can be created.

For Airbending I would argue for Intelligence, as it is all about finding clever ways to redirect the energy of the attacker- to disperse it.

Earth and water both seem more about wisdom to me. While Fire is offensive, and Air is Defensive, Water and Earth may choose easily what mode to be in and which is best for the occasion.

Thank you for your time. Happy gaming.

dman11235

2008-06-14, 08:46 PM

Well, yeah, but martial arts are always based on perception, or wisdom.

Same thing goes for the others. Though by reasoning and flavor, Earth is con based.

Oh, and fire is offense, water is control, air is mobility (or freedom if you prefer), and earth is defense. It's kind of odd like that (fire and earth are opposites and water and air are opposites). You can add passive to water and aggression to fire, and stability to earth if you wanted, which helps the opposites.

EDIT: Point is, even though it makes sense, it's not always the logical choice.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-14, 08:49 PM

*sigh* This is, what, the third time somebody's asked this? The firebending Charisma thing has been considered, but we've decided that keeping the stat basis for the benders as Wisdom makes things easier and fits the show better. It's not a bad idea, Willbe (otherwise it wouldn't have been suggested three times), but we've been through this. Nice to have you with us, by the way! Don't worry about getting shot down if you another idea that you think would work out well.

As for maintaining Ice Shards, I wouldn't bother making any sort of action to maintain the things, rather just stating that as long as the bender holds them, she's maintaining them; just to keep things simple. That being said, a swift action to maintain the shards each round makes sense to me, but it's just more recordkeeping that I'd rather not get mixed up with.

Mephibosheth

2008-06-17, 09:13 AM

How about this for a re-write of the Ice Shards seed, hopefully incorporating the above comments as much as possible:

A waterbender can create a rough melee weapon by molding a relatively small quantity of water into a large, sharp shard as a full-round action. This weapon deals 1d6 points of piercing damage and has a critical rating of 20/x2. It counts as a light weapon, can be used in conjunction with any weapon-based feat for which it qualifies, and can be thrown with a range increment of 10 ft. Addtionally , the waterbender add 1d4 points of cold damage for every 10 by which her skill check exceeds the base DC. A weapon created using this seed lasts as long as the waterbender holds it, but begins to melt as normal ice would if the weapon ever leaves the waterbender’s possession.

Next, how does this sound for a cloud shaping clause for Wind Shaping:

• Cloud Shaping: Another basic technique, this ability allows an airbender to manipulate clouds, water vapor, and other similar substances. An airbender can cause the clouds to take any shape he desires, though the shape must be relatively simple and intricate detail is usually impossible. An airbender can also move clouds and vapors anywhere within his bending range. Clouds moved or shaped by an airbender remain as they are until dispersed. An airbender can affect one 5-foot cube for every 5 airbender levels with this ability.

On the dead levels issue:

I looked back at the classes, and there is a significant problem with dead levels. Airbenders have 8 by my count (5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19), earthbenders have 3 (11, 13, 17), firebenders have 6 (7,9,11,13,17,19), and waterbenders have 4 (7,9,11,17). Some of these can be eliminated by rearranging the order of some abilities. For example, airbenders could reasonably get evasion at 5th level and improved evasion at 11th. Waterbenders, meanwhile, could get Circular Attack at 9th level instead of 10th. We could bump the firebender's Firestorm ability back to 7th level and grant a reduction in the attack penalties at 13th level.

This, however doesn't completely eliminate the problem. What if we grant a few bonus feats at higher levels? We could craft a specific list that isn't too powerful, but allows the various benders to customize a little and pick up bonuses to important skills or general useful feats. I agree with Dman that just giving them a free skill point seems a bit cheesy somehow, and I don't want to eliminate the skill system, if only for the "if it ain't broke" reason put forward by jagadaishio.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not completely unhappy with a few dead levels. I think the classes offer enough awesomeness to make them worth sitting through a few dead levels. However, with the possible exception of the earthbender, I agree there are a few too many.

Mephibosheth

jagadaishio

2008-06-17, 09:15 PM

The argument could be made that there are no true dead levels in bending classes because of the additional skill point that you get to devote to bending each level. I am not going to make that argument, however. I agree with the changing of levels of gained abilities that Mephibosheth suggests, but I don't agree with the bonus feats. It just doesn't strike me as a good idea.

I like the weapon clause as Mephibosheth has most recently suggested, but I'm still not sure whether or not it should require a swift action to maintain. This would work in the same way as the Firebender's Burning Rush, except it wouldn't degrade, so long as it's maintained.

For the cloud shaping, I think that we should just copy-pasta from the other classes various Manipulate-style seeds for the purpose of shaping and movement. It just seems easier that way. It would allow for cloud-shaping, and it would let the Airbender move around their tornados and other long-lasting effects.

Anyway, that's the way I see it all.

Pirate_King

2008-06-17, 09:44 PM

I've no problem with a few dead levels(the rogue has 2), but 6 and 8 are a lot, and I think the solution is pretty much either a limited set of bonus feats or new special abilities to think up, which would basically be the same thing. Oh, and firestorm at 7th level, that's the first level where firebenders get a second blast from BAB, and going from one blast per round to three seems odd to me. To get rid of a couple firebender dead levels, we could progressively decrease the penalty for deflect bending, and find some other use for airbending study.

I have a logical issue with the manipulate abilities and the earth and air seeds particles and dust. Both seem to be rather simple applications of the manipulate abilities that they don't seem to warrant their own seeds. I think letting them have those seeds without taking up seeds known would be an alright bonus to balance with the water and fires child of the sun/moon bonuses

dman11235

2008-06-17, 10:46 PM

Good class design dictates no dead levels. Currently the waterbender has 4, at levels 7, 9, 11, and 17. Coincidentally, the levels you want to be dead least are levels 7, 13, and 17, as all they give you are skill points and HP, and whatever class features you'd get. So that's two levels you never want to be dead. Also, the levels that are best as dead levels (if absolutely necessary, but try as hard as possible to eliminate all dead levels) are 6, 12, and 18, as they all get +1 to all saves and +1 BAB. You want to be able to gain something new every level, or else taking that next level isn't going to be very appealing. Eh, this is all in On the Philosophy of Class Design, linked in my Handy Haversack, read it more in depth there.

Air is the same, but with the added problems of levels 5 and 19. Earth is 9, 11, 13, and 17, and fire is 7, 9, 11, 13, 17, 19.

Now, a lot of this can be fixed with some moving around of stuff. Like, moving a class feature to a level earlier. You currently have most class features at the same levels as gaining a new seed, so you have enough things to eliminate all the dead levels, even in the case of the airbender.

Mephibosheth

2008-06-19, 09:33 AM

What would people think of altering the seeds known progression, increasing the total number of bending seeds a bender knows by one. Something like this:

{table=head]Level|Seeds Known
1|1
2|2
3|3
4|3
5|4
6|4
7|5
8|5
9|6
10|6
11|7
12|7
13|8
14|8
15|9
16|9
17|10
18|10
19|11
20|12[/table]

If I'm looking at things correctly, that could possibly address a lot of the dead level issues, since it would put new seeds known on odd levels (where most of our dead levels occur.

For the cloud shaping, I think that we should just copy-pasta from the other classes various Manipulate-style seeds for the purpose of shaping and movement. It just seems easier that way. It would allow for cloud-shaping, and it would let the Airbender move around their tornados and other long-lasting effects.
I looked into that before writing up the new text, but I couldn't think of a way to make it work smoothly. The other three elements' manipulation abilities are about manipulating the element directly, whereas the majority of Wind Shaping is about moving objects indirectly by manipulating air currents. I really wouldn't make sense to replace Wind Shaping with something heavily based on Manipulate or Move a Rock. That said, I did reference these other abilities when writing the new text.

I have a logical issue with the manipulate abilities and the earth and air seeds particles and dust. Both seem to be rather simple applications of the manipulate abilities that they don't seem to warrant their own seeds. I think letting them have those seeds without taking up seeds known would be an alright bonus to balance with the water and fires child of the sun/moon bonuses
In my mind, the reason these abilities are seeds instead of class features is because they're not foundational to the bending discipline. Every earthbender gets Earth Blast as a class feature, because every earthbender learns some version of that ability during training and uses it in combat. Not every earthbender needs to learn or uses the Dust seed in order to be an earthbender. For that reason, I think that it should remain a seed.

Mephibosheth

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-20, 09:32 AM

I'm with Meph on pretty much everything just mentioned.

Now, I'm glad that we're really buckling down on balance and intricate mechanics issues, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds this stage of production to be rather tedious. For those of us that are waiting for an opportunity to get creative past all this nit-picking of wording in forms, I may have an idea.

Simply put, we need forms. And lots of them. The Form Creation thread was a good place for us to put some useful and unorthodox combinations (many of which are no longer legal due to the changes we've made to the seeds in the past few months). What I want is a database of simple on-seed, two-seed and three-seed forms that could comprise a bender's bread and butter, with the minimum level that a bender could use it at. I am, essentially, asking for help in making a list of forms that would end up looking a lot like the 4e class powers list. Using our format, of course, not the format for powers. We'll reserve that for the eventual 4e conversion thread(s). Is it alright if I start a new thread for this, Meph? I think it would be simpler than to have all those forms that use outdated rules and need to weed them out.

Mephibosheth

2008-06-20, 09:54 AM

Sounds great to me. Feel free to start a thread and I'll link it to the project hub. This sounds like a good way to get started on the possible 4e adaptation of the classes.

While were on the topic (this isn't really the best place to post this specific item, but what can you do :smallwink:), another possible creative outlet that I've been putting off would be the fluffy development of the setting. We still have a few iconic character builds that should be completed (most notably Iroh and Azula, but I'm sure we can think of others), and there was talk of putting together a couple of sample villages or cities for each nation. There are also a few items and pieces of machinery that need to be developed, the weapons and armor pages need to be fleshed out, and it might be nice to have some generic class builds to give DM's help with their preparations.

Looking forward to the new thread! Any other comments on my proposed changes?

Mephibosheth

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-20, 11:16 AM

Yes. Sorta. If we're going to be doing much more on the bending mechanisms (which I'm getting a feeling we're not) we're gonna need a new thread. I dunno it it's the length of this thread, but it takes me almost a minute to move between two pages within it. Even if it's my imagination or my computer being quirky, I new thread is just about in order, assuming there's any more refining to be done with the bending system.

Though I do have some bones to pick with the prestige classes...

Guyr Adamantine

2008-06-20, 12:32 PM

No need to start a new thread, lets just convert mine. I'm willing to do the job and add a compendium.

Please let me do it.

EDIT: Rot. In. Hell. :smallannoyed:

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-20, 12:55 PM

Guyr Adamantine

2008-06-20, 01:19 PM

Erk. Sorry, Guyr, I didn't mean to steal your thunder like that... I already set up all of the preliminary work on the thread. To be perfectly honest, I would be happy to give you the thread. If you want me to rename the thread to "Ignore this" and let you start your own, I'm perfectly willing to do that. But I do like the set-up I have, and I think it's quite a bit more organized than the original. What do you want me to do?

I'd be glad, but I realise you have some prcise goals and expectations toward that side-project, and I believe none is better served than by himself. (Or whatever how this expression is translated in english) I'll do do my best to help, though.

Lets do some fine job.

P.S: My "Rot in Hell" comment was a big sarcasm, you know. Nothing like emotionnal manipulation. :smallbiggrin:

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-20, 01:59 PM

Alright, everyone. That's been taken care of; Guyr will be the one to handle the forms compendium. Now, on to the bones I mentioned earlier.

It seems to me that the Dai Li need some class-specific seeds to expand the use of their stone gloves. The Flying Fists ability is a nice start, but the class needs more, methinks, to match the versatility that would be offered by going straight earthbender. The shooting of individual finger-plate darts would be a good start, but I can't think of much else to add. All's I know is that the class needs its own seeds to really be worth something to a player (though it's quite sufficient as-is for NPCs).

Guyr Adamantine

2008-06-20, 02:27 PM

Interesting... I think, as the Dai Li don't seem to have much special techniques beyond their stone fists, that we should first remove Flying Fist (The rules changes made it unneeded) and add some other sub-seeds, to complement them.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-21, 04:50 PM

Looking back over the seeds that leading up to the prestige classes, I have to request that a bit of my earlier work be deleted from the project. Specifically, the Major Wounds clause of Healing Waters. I mean, what was I thinking? Jeez. Plus, it's a Disciple seed now, and I still think it doesn't fit the supposed limits that we've placed in this setting. Of course, that would mean that we'd need a new Disciple of Healing Waters seed to replace it.

Alright, everyone, guess what time it is! It's time to get creative! Yeehaw!

I'd like to propose some additions to the Dai Li. First, A revision to Grasp of the Dai Li and Defensive Roll. Second, a new special ability. Third, the creation of Dai Li class-specific seeds (though I'm perfectly alright with allowing them to choose from earthbender seeds if they'd prefer). I'll begin. Proposed edits in red and commentary in blue.

Grasp of the Dai Li - This technique of earthbending is a secret one dating back to the formation of the Dai Li by Avatar Kyoshi. By coating their fists, forearms, and feet with a thin layer of stone to use their earthbending, they minimize property damage and always have stone at hand, literally. A Dai Li agent takes a move action to create these stone gloves and shoes, which requires a DC 10 Earthbending check, or may create them as a swift action with a DC 30 Earthbending check. These are counted as a pair of gauntlets in terms of statistics, and either a pair of gauntlets or an unarmed strike in terms of weapon-based feats, at the agent's choice. Note that the Dai Li may only launch two hand and two foot techniques (through the Flying Fist ability or specific seeds) using this ability before new gloves and shoes must be created.

Flying Fist - By hardening the earth on his hands, the Dai Li may project his Grasp of the Dai Li via his Earth Blast ability at a target in the shape of his fist to cause grievous amounts of harm using the minimum amount of material. The precision of this attack is almost surgical, allowing the Dai Li to add precision-based damage to this ability, as well as dealing non-lethal damage by taking a -4 to attack rolls, if the agent so chooses. Using Flying Fist increases the Earthbending check on the use of Earth Blast by +10.

The reason for the foot reference is this screenshot (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/217/515.jpg). Notice that they're two separate abilities now, and that Handcuff is a seed now. I was thinking of turning Flying Fist into a seed, but it seems like the hallmark of the Dai Li, so I decided not to. At this point, it's basically a free template seed; like the blasts. Handcuff has been cannibalized and remade into the Arrest seed because Meph made a pair of pressure-launched handcuffs in the Item Creation Thread, which makes a handcuff ability a utility that's nice to have, but not absolutely necessary.

Defensive Roll - At 6th level, the Dai Li Agent can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per encounter, the Dai Li Agent can attempt to roll with the damage from a weapon strike or other blow. To use this ability, the Dai Li Agent must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the Dai Li Agent’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll. The Dai Li Agent gains another use of this ability at 9th level.

Notice that the thing about the attack reducing you to 0 or less damage is removed. It makes the ability less pointless now.

Stealth Climber (or something better-sounding) - At third level, a Dai Li learns to climb without ever leaving a trace, fusing his stone gloves with the stone, rather than carving a way up. Whenever a Dai Li agent uses his earthbender Climb ability, he no longer leaves hand and foot holds, so long as he is using his Grasp of the Dai Li ability.

I chose level 3 because it coincides with Obscure Passage, making third level the "My Dai Li superior taught me to be sneaky" level for the agent.

SEEDS

Arrest
Base DC: 20
By firing a flurry of stony hands, the Dai Li may severely hamper the movement of fleeing quarry or a dangerous adversary.
Handcuffs: A Dai Li agent launches his Grasp of the Dai Li in a precisely-aimed pattern, controlling its path with his earthbending. By making an attack action, a Dai Li may try to bind a target to the ground or other earthen surface. The Dai Li makes an attack roll at a -4 penalty in order to attach one of the target's extremities (arms or legs in most situations) to the floor. If the attack is successful, the target may not move from its current square and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC, though it may make a DC 10 Strength check to break loose as a move action. Additional handcuff attacks increase the strength check DC by +2 each. Each successful handcuff also imposes a -5 to all bending checks by the target. This technique only works with the hand portion of Grasp of the Dai Li.
Capture: A target that has been hit by four handcuffs is considered immobilized (as per the terms of the Immobilize seed) but is still able to be moved by the Dai Li (with their own might or through earthbending).

Tell me what you think of everything. Still need some more seeds (at least three altogether).

Pirate_King

2008-06-21, 10:47 PM

jagadaishio

2008-06-24, 12:33 PM

I'd suggest lowering the minimum level for entering the Dai Li PrC, 7 seems a bit steep, since it puts all the Dai Li agents in the show at least level 8, and, well. I dunno. I guess I don't really have a basis for my argument here other than it feels a bit off.

One thing I do have, though, is that team work infiltration should be something at first level, since I'm pretty sure we've never seen an agent alone (aside from the one who came to warn the gaang)

I think that it's actually pretty reasonable to place them at that level. Remember, the main characters in the show are epic benders, so a Dai Lee with what would normally be a rather high level would still be pretty weak compared to them. That's how I see it, anyway.

motionmatrix

2008-06-27, 12:48 AM

Pirate_King

2008-06-27, 12:09 PM

this should go in the non-canon thread, but I would consider bending a super-natural ability, but I can't think of a reason for it to be subject to spell resistance.

Bending isn't magic, so spell reflection or counter-spells wouldn't work, though we really haven't given this any thought because we've been working from a non-magic setting. you might find some answers here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69732)

Mephibosheth

2008-06-27, 12:30 PM

I been looking through the thread, very impressed by the way ^.^ , I just can't find some answers. I Been trying to mix avatar to work in a standard d20 game, everything translates fine, and I am keeping everything as true to the show as possible, but interaction with magic will happen, and I'm not sure how to handle these situations:

Bending and Spell resistance?
First, thanks for the vote of confidence! I'm glad you're enjoying the system. I'd agree with Pirate_King. Bending is about manipulating already-existing material or energy. In the same way that Conjuration spells like Orb of [Energy] aren't affected by spell resistance, neither would bending attacks.

Is bending a spell-like ability, supernatural, etc?
I'd say supernatural. We should probably specify that, now that I think of it.

how do you decide what is the equal of a form/seed to spell levels? important for example: spell reflection.
I would say that bending isn't affected by spell reflection, given that it isn't spell-based. In general, bending wouldn't be affected by anti-magic stuff like spell reflection or dispel magic. I could see a case for no bending in an anti-magic field, but even that is iffy in my mind.

motionmatrix

2008-06-27, 03:27 PM

Thank you for the fast response!, I appreciate this so much. Making it supernatural answers almost everything (including antimagic field, which was my next question).

The other thing that is in my mind that does seem to belong in this thread:

I can't find a definite answer as to what seeds mixes with what seeds, what isn't allowed to mix with what

how far can you stretch a seed before it goes into a new or another seed altogether? I know this is a broad question, but I guess it may be answered with the above question.

and what is the bending time for seeds not specified; i.e. standard action, move action?

Ty 4 the help guys

^.^

Mephibosheth

2008-06-27, 08:06 PM

I can't find a definite answer as to what seeds mixes with what seeds, what isn't allowed to mix with what

how far can you stretch a seed before it goes into a new or another seed altogether? I know this is a broad question, but I guess it may be answered with the above question.
The answer to this question is intentionally left vague. The general idea behind the system is that players and DM's will work together to come up with appropriate combinations of seeds. What is allowed and appropriate will inevitably vary from DM to DM. For example, I would most likely run a very strict canon game, keeping close to the abilities demonstrated in the show. This means that I would be likely to prohibit some of the more outrageous combinations of seeds. On the other hand, many DM's will want to run looser games, and will allow for crazier combinations.

and what is the bending time for seeds not specified; i.e. standard action, move action?
Unless specified in the seed, using a bending seed is a standard action. This is explained in the bending overview on the webpage, iirc.

Hope that helps!

Mephibosheth

Eighth_Seraph

2008-06-30, 12:24 PM

What, no comments on my suggested Dai Li revision? I'll break it down and make it easier to swallow, then.

Original text in black.
My edits to existing abilities in red.
New abilities in green.
My own commentary and explanations in blue.

Grasp of the Dai Li (revised)
This technique of earthbending is a secret one dating back to the formation of the Dai Li by Avatar Kyoshi. By coating their fists, forearms, and feet with a thin layer of stone to use their earthbending, they minimize property damage and always have stone at hand, literally. A Dai Li agent may create these stone gloves and shoes with a standard action by making a DC 10 Earthbending check, a move action with a DC 20 check or a swift action with a DC 30 Earthbending check. The Grasp of the Dai Li are counted as either a pair of gauntlets or unarmed strikes in terms of weapon-based feats, at the agent's choice, and deal damage as such. Note that the Dai Li may only launch two hand and two foot techniques (through the Flying Fist ability or specific seeds) using this ability before new gloves and shoes must be created.

Flying Fist (revised)
By hardening the earth on his hands, the Dai Li may project his Grasp of the Dai Li via his Earth Blast ability at a target in the shape of his fist to cause grievous amounts of harm using the minimum amount of material. The precision of this attack is almost surgical, allowing the Dai Li to add precision-based damage to this ability, as well as dealing non-lethal damage by taking a -4 to attack rolls, if the agent so chooses. Using Flying Fist increases the Earthbending check on the use of Earth Blast by +10.
Explanation
The reason for the foot reference is this screenshot (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/217/515.jpg). Notice that they're two separate abilities now, and that Handcuff is a seed now. I was thinking of turning Flying Fist into a seed, but it seems like the hallmark of the Dai Li, so I decided not to. At this point, it's basically a free template seed; like the blasts. Handcuff has been cannibalized and remade into the Arrest seed because Meph made a pair of pressure-launched handcuffs in the Item Creation Thread, which makes a handcuff ability a utility that's nice to have, but not absolutely necessary.

Defensive Roll (revised)
At 6th level, the Dai Li Agent can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per encounter, the Dai Li Agent can attempt to roll with the damage from a weapon strike or other blow. To use this ability, the Dai Li Agent must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the Dai Li Agent’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll. The Dai Li Agent gains another use of this ability at 9th level.
Explanation
Notice that the thing about the attack reducing you to 0 or less damage is removed. It makes the ability less pointless now.

Stealth Climber (or some better name)
At third level, a Dai Li learns to climb without ever leaving a trace, fusing his stone gloves with the stone he climbs, rather than carving a way up. So long as he is using his Grasp of the Dai Li ability, a Dai Li agent no longer leaves hand and foot holds when he uses his earthbender Climb ability. In addition, a Dai Li may now climb while using her Hide and Move Silently abilities normally.
Explanation
I chose level 3 because it coincides with Obscure Passage, making third level the "My Dai Li superior taught me to be sneaky" level for the agent. I would, however, also imagine that the ability is basic enough to be pushed back to first level.

SEEDS

Arrest
Base DC: 20
By firing a flurry of stony hands, the Dai Li may severely hamper the movement of fleeing quarry or a dangerous adversary.
Handcuffs: A Dai Li agent launches his Grasp of the Dai Li in a precisely-aimed pattern, controlling its path with his earthbending. By making an attack action, a Dai Li may try to bind a target to the ground or other earthen surface. The Dai Li makes an attack roll at a -4 penalty in order to attach one of the target's extremities (arms or legs in most situations) to the floor. If the attack is successful, the target may not move from its current square and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC, though it may make a DC 10 Strength check to break loose as a move action. Additional handcuff attacks increase the strength check DC by +2 each. Each successful handcuff also imposes a -5 to all bending checks by the target. This technique only works with the hand portion of Grasp of the Dai Li.
Capture: A target that has been hit by four handcuffs is considered immobilized (as per the terms of the Immobilize seed) but is still able to be moved by the Dai Li (with their own might or through earthbending).

motionmatrix

2008-06-30, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Eight_Seraph
Stealth Climber (or some better name)

At third level, a Dai Li learns to climb without ever leaving a trace, fusing his stone gloves with the stone he climbs, rather than carving a way up. So long as he is using his Grasp of the Dai Li ability, a Dai Li agent no longer leaves hand and foot holds when he uses his earthbender Climb ability.

In the show, it seems like the Dai Li also use hide and move silently with this ability without any penalty.

It could also allow them to move faster than their actual earthbending climb speed when using the Grasp of the Dai Li, further making the PrC different than the Earthbending base class.

ErrantX

2008-06-30, 03:33 PM

I like your revisions to my Dai Li Agent PrC Eighth_Seraph, good work, good stuff :)

-X

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-01, 12:08 PM

I like your suggestions, Matrix, I'll add them in.

Alright, I also have some bones to pick with the Disciple of Healing Waters; but I'll start with the foundation for the class, which is the Healing Waters seed. First of all, we need to remove the Major Wounds clause in the seed, for two reasons. One, it's terribly out of line with the show. Two, it's a already a Disciple seed. Yes, I wrote it. I must have been high on the Holy Ghost that day.

Now, let's move on to the PrC itself. First, we need to remove the references to vitality and wound points in Sense the Lifestream. Like so. By touching a willing or helpless living creature and sensing how the body devotes chi and nutrients to certain areas of the body, a disciple of healing waters can assess the physical and spiritual health of the creature. The disciple must focus on feeling the creature’s lifestream for a full round to feel its pathways before learning what ails it. After this first round of focus, the disciple learns of any wounds the creature possesses (current total and possible hit points). On subsequent rounds, the disciple of healing waters can decide to search the body’s systems for any one of the following ailments, each requiring a full-round action of concentration to assess.
• Pathogens (disease, viruses, infection, etc.)
• Toxic substances (poisons, if still active)
• Damage to specific body parts (caltrop wounds, broken bones, burned skin, damaged organs)
• Physical debilitation (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution damage)
• Mental enfeeblement (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage)
• Permanent damage (Ability drain)
• Spiritual infirmity (Strong negative emotion, absence of the creature’s spirit, possession)
• Altered state of mind (hypnosis, barbarian rage, deep confusion, etc.)

I'm also unsure about keeping the Major Wounds seed at all, but I can't think of anything to replace it. Maybe an ability that allows the Disciple to re-attach a limb that has been cut off, rather than growing a new one?

Mephibosheth

2008-07-01, 03:56 PM

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to the modifications of the Dai Li and Disciple of the Healing Waters PrC's. I've been procrastinating. I have no excuse. *hangs head in shame*

Dai Li PrC:

I think I'm (by and large) supportive of all your suggested changes, Eighth_Seraph. It definitely addresses the uselessness issues of Flying Fists while not letting the ability become overpowering and creating interesting synergy within the class. I agree we need some new Dai Li seeds, but can't think of any at the moment.

My only suggestion is that I don't think an attack roll penalty is necessary to deal non-lethal damage with Flying Fists. I'd say just let them deal leathal or non-leathal damage as they choose. I can't think of any new names for Stealth Climbing at the moment, but I'm sure we'll come up with something.

Disciple of the Healing Waters:

Again, I support these changes. I've already removed the Major Wounds application from the Healing Waters seed on the website, and I'll do the same on the forum. I also support the clarifications of Sense the Lifestream. Finally, I think that if we must have a "fixing broken/removed limbs" seed, the version about re-attaching arms is better than regrowing them. Having the severed limb should be a prerequisite to that level of healing, if it's possible at all.

Finally, note that I've updated the versions of the classes that appear in this thread. I was woefully negligent in my duty to keep them updated, and I apologize. They should be good now, by and large.

Mephibosheth

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-02, 10:50 AM

Alright then...how about this?

Restore Pathway
Base DC 30
There are times when a healer must not only repair damage to a patient's body, but replace something which has been lost completely. It is in this case that a Disciple must establish a new flow of chi to allow the body to recognize and heal the destroyed limb.
• If a Disciple of Healing Waters makes a successful Heal check to provide long-term care to any creature with a severed, crushed or otherwise useless limb or body part, she may make a Waterbending check (using one of her daily uses of Greater Healing Waters) in order to re-establish the body's flow of nutrients and energy to the afflicted area. The damaged body part must be reasonably whole and present. In the case of severed limbs, the Disciple re-attaches the limb and allows the body to recognize it as part of itself.

Restoring a chi pathway requires one use of this seed each day for one week, during which the limb is completely useless and must be kept relatively stationary (A sling or cast is sufficient for this). After the seventh application of this seed, the patient's body can begin its own healing process, mending the damage to the limb itself.This generally takes between four and six weeks, during which the limb must remain relatively stationary. Daily application of the Healing Waters seed can cut this time in half.

Mephibosheth

2008-07-02, 11:01 AM

I like it. It has a pretty high DC and a really long duration, which it what I would expect for this time of healing in the Avatarverse. It looks pretty good.

Pirate_King

2008-07-02, 05:58 PM

I like both fixes, though I'd suggest a higher strength check for getting out of the arrest seed, as an "average" person (with a str of 10) can break out %50 of the time.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-02, 08:26 PM

Yes, but that's only true if the Dai Li only uses one handcuff. The whole point of this seed is to be used as a sneak attack. Two Dai Li each launching both their hands automatically immobilize the target, and if one hit misses the DC is still a 16. I think it's a fair trade-off. If anyone else thinks the DC is too low, then I'll up it a bit.

OR I can make the target have to break each handcuff individually, which would be interesting, though likely overpowered.

Mephibosheth

2008-07-02, 08:28 PM

I had the same objection initially, but I looked at it again and I like the way Eighth_Seraph put it together. I think the way it stands currently is easy to adjudicate and represents the ability pretty well.

Pirate_King

2008-07-03, 10:30 PM

Yes, but that's only true if the Dai Li only uses one handcuff.

I assume one hand counts as one cuff, yes? I guess I see your point, we hardly ever see just one Dai Li agent.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-03, 10:53 PM

Alright, so we still need a few more Dai Li seeds. And a decent capstone. I am an enormous fan of ultra-rewarding super capstone abilities.

In terms of seeds, this PrC screams for templates, especially something having to do with shooting the finger-plates off Grasp of the Dai Li. I'm not sure how to handle that other than calling it creative application of the Airbending Study feat. Not sure what else the show has provided for us to give.

Caewil

2008-07-03, 11:05 PM

Well, they were trained by Avatar Kyoshi, so she could have easily passed on airbending Techniques to them.

jagadaishio

2008-07-04, 03:06 PM

My two cents on the Dai Lee abilities is that they should have to break out of each cuff individually, because they're two separate bindings, and that the finger shots are just a template which lets you do a blast with a remarkable small amount of earth. Now, the reason that there's only one strength check for escaping from ropes or handcuffs is because you only need one break to be free. You're not trying to take the cuffs off, just break the bond between them.

On the other hand, to escape from two of the Dai Lee's cuffs you need to make two breaks, one to escape from each cuff. i.e. two strength check. But that's just my idea.

I like the proposed changes to the healing abilities of the waterbenders a lot. I think it works quite well.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-19, 09:44 PM

Hrm. It seems that we're going to need a new thread, as this one has gotten longer than even the first bending thread. And I think with Sozin's Comet, we've finally gotten enough material for... EPIC BENDING.

Seriously. It's about time. It would have to be significantly less solidly built on canon than we've previously placed an emphasis upon, but I think we have at least one epic seed for each element, and two for firebending, as well as a new ability which I think we'll be forced to call Spiritbending and may or may not be restricted to the Avatar. Also some shiny new forms to add to the compendium, as well as an awesome new creature for the setting.

Yeah. We're gonna need a new thread. Meph?

Guyr Adamantine

2008-07-19, 10:32 PM

DON'T SPOIL ANYTHING!

I'm among the poor losers who couldn't watch it, so keep the spoiler blocks high, o.k.?

Please?:smallfrown:

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-19, 10:42 PM

...okay. Only 'cause you asked so nicely. One thing that has finally been decided, though. Sandbending can be done by normal earthbenders. Like Toph, for example. It's apparently just a specialization after all.

Also, the Intensity seed should have an option for actually increasing Fire Blast damage, at a high DC price. Like, +10 per d6. Extremely useful for a firebender, but not broken, methinks.

Further, judging from every time we've seen Zuko and Azula fight, as well as Katara and Pakku, Aang and Toph, and other situations with benders fighting other benders of the same element, Deflect Attack needs a major bonus when deflecting blasts of an element that the bender can control. Like, a +5 to the deflection roll. This would also have the additional effect of water and earthbenders taking control of the chunk of element used in the attack upon a successful deflection.

Caewil

2008-07-20, 01:53 AM

Liliedhe

2008-07-20, 10:45 AM

And Firebenders can fly. At least as long as the comet is around O.O

But I would like to voice doubts whether Toph can be called a normal Earthbender *grins*. Still, sandbending seems to be just a specialisation, I agree.

Mindflayer

2008-07-20, 10:47 AM

Sandbending has already been made as a prestige class on the non-canon content thread.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-20, 11:23 AM

And Firebenders can fly. At least as long as the comet is around O.O
I think that's the we r teh roxxorz version of Burning Rush. You'll notice that only Azula and Ozai do it, and Azula, at least, has proven herself to use Burning Rush in the past. It's either an epic seed, or the normal seed with a DC pumped up to epic levels.

And yes, the comet provides at least a +20 to firebending checks.

Sandbending has already been made as a prestige class on the non-canon content thread. Yeah, I know; but I was never a fan of the way it was done, and it was never really finished. I agree now that it should be a prestige class. Or rather, a prestige base class. Here's how I would make the Sandbender.

Sandbender
Though the earthbenders of the world may have gained some small insight into the secrets of tiny particles which make up the deserts and beaches of world, the inhabitants of these places know that sand is far more than a mass of tiny pebbles to be shoved brusquely around like chunks of boulders. Sand is a fine art, a palette that must be controlled elegantly, and its proper use escapes even master earthbenders that do not specialize in its application.

Hit Dice
d6

Requirements
To qualify to become a Sandbender, you must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Earthbending 4 ranks
Class Abilities Move a Rock and the Dust earthbending seed

Class Skills
Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Earthbending (Wis), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Bending) (Int), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Knowledge, (Local), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis)

Skill Points per Level - 4 + Int modifier
Then I would have a 20 level class. Yes, a twenty-level prestige class. Following the same basic structure as the other bending classes.

There's also another format that I had been considering, and that involves making the Sandbender into something strongly akin to a 4e Paragon Path, using substitution levels. In other words, we could make 20 different levels of sandbender. Then, when an earthbender gains a level, he can choose to gain a level in Sandbender instead of earthbender. What makes this different from straight multiclassing is that when a level 3 earthbender gains a level, he can choose to either take level 4 of earthbender, or level 4 of Sandbender, without ever taking level 1 of sandbender. This method would be a bit trickier, but it could be done, and it would be awesome, methinks.

Mindflayer

2008-07-20, 11:27 AM

It was completed (I did it) I'll repost it here for simplicity's sake:

Sandbender
Prequisites
Must be able to earthbend
must know the Dust seed
Water bending study
must have 4 rank in earthbending

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Seeds known Defense bonus Special
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 1 +2 Manipulate , Sand Blast +1d6
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 2 +2 Deflect attack
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 2 +3 improved unarmed strike
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 3 +3 Sand Stride 20 ft., Sand Blast +2d6
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 3 +4
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 4 +4 Sand Stride 30 ft.
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 4 +5 Sand Blast +3d6
8th +6 +6 +2 +6 5 +5 Sand Stride 40 ft.
9th +6 +6 +3 +6 5 +6
10th +7 +7 +3 +7 6 +6 Sand Stride 50 ft., Sand Blast +4d6
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d8

Class Skills: Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Sandbending (Wis) Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Bending) (Int), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
Manipulate Sand
Base DC: 5
The most basic of the sandbending seeds, manipulation involves simple movement or shaping of sand.
Movement: The base DC is for moving a 5-foot cube of sand up to 5 ft/round in any direction. Adding another 5-foot cube of sand to a seed increases the sandbending DC by +4 per cube, and moving the sand an additional 5 feet adds +2 to the DC. This use of the seed is a move action. A sandbender can manipulate sand she can't see but knows is there by adding +10 to the sandbending DC.
Shaping: This seed can also be used to manipulate the basic shape of sand, though it does not allow intricate detail. For example, creating an sculpture of a humanoid is possible, but making one of a specific person is not, and the sculpture comes out rough and bumpy; creating a sculpture of a specific race is also difficult, but telltale features (like an elf’s ears) could give it away. The base DC is for manipulating the shape of a Diminutive mass of sand; the save DC increases by +5 for every size category larger than Diminutive the sculpture is, and this changes to +10 for every size category larger than Large it is. This use of the seed takes one full-round action, plus two more for every size category larger than Diminutive the sculpture is.
Sand Blast
Base DC: 5
The first offensive ability an sandbender learns is to levitate the sand beneath her and punch or kick at great speeds towards her opponents. A blast deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage at 1st level (half damage to objects) and increases in power as the sandbender gains levels, as shown above. A blast is a ranged attack, and an sandbender can use a number of blasts in one round equal to the number of iterative attacks she can make (as determined by her BAB). A sandbender cannot apply precision-based damage from any source to the damage dealt by her blasts. A sandbender can only use blasts when there is a source of open earth within her bending range. A sandbender does not requires a line of sight to the target of the blast, and as such can maneuver the blast around a corner or other cover by adding +10 to the sandbending DC, but still suffers penalties for concealment, as appropriate. A sandbender may apply his Strength modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier to an Sand Blast's attack roll, if she wishes; and she also adds her Strength modifier to damage.
Deflect Attack
Base DC: 5
Early in their training, benders learn to block or deflect attacks directed at them and their companions. Once per round, a bender can attempt to negate a ranged attack (either conventional or bending) targeted within 10 feet +5 ft/3 class levels. Negating this attack requires the bender succeed in an opposed attack roll. If the bender’s attack roll is less than her opponent’s, the attack is unaffected by the deflection attempt and is resolved as normal. Using this initial Deflect Bending attempt counts as an immediate action.

Additionally, a bender has the option of reserving iterative attacks in order to gain more Deflect Attack attempts. Whenever she makes a full-round attack, a bender may choose to forgo a number of iterative attacks, gaining a number of additional Deflect Attack attempts equal to the number of attacks the bender reserved. Regardless of how many attacks a bender forgoes, she cannot use more Deflect Attack attempts than she has iterative attacks due to high Base Attack Bonus. These subsequent Deflect Bending attempts do not count as actions, and can be used any time during the round, even when it is not the bender's turn.

If a bender is caught flat-footed, she can make a Reflex Save (DC 10 + ½ the attacker’s BAB + the attacker’s Dexterity modifier) to still make a Deflect Attack attempt. A flat-footed bender can never make more than a single Deflect Attack attempt.

For example, a 15th level sandbender’s Base Attack Bonus allows her to make 3 iterative attacks. If she decides to make a full-round attack, she can reserve as many as 2 of these attacks in order to gain 2 additional Deflect Attack attempts (bringing her total to 3 for that round).
Sand Stride – Through development of her abilities, a Sandbender can move over the surface of sand as naturally as if on ground, or even more so. A sandbender can move on the surface of sand at the speed indicated on the class table. The sandbender can use the run action while moving, provided that she moves in a straight line.

Seeds

Steady Stance
Base DC: 10
By encasing her feet in sand, a bender can better resist attempts to move her, or freeze opponents in place.
• Defensive: Stabilizing herself with feet solidly connected to the ground, a sandbender gains a +2 to saves or checks to stay in place, +1 for every point by which the sandbending check exceeds the DC. The sandbender may also encase the feet of allies within her bending range in this way by adding +2 to the DC per ally. Those affected by this seed can move from their square if they want, but doing so ends the seed.
• Offensive: By surrounding an enemy’s feet in sand and freezing it suddenly to the ground, a sandbender may prevent an enemy from advancing. The target of this seed makes a Reflex save to avoid it altogether, or remain frozen in place. Those who failed the Reflex save can make a Strength check to break free, or may spend a full-round action removing the sand. The sandbender may use this seed against multiple opponents, but this adds +4 to the sandbending DC per additional opponent
Sand Collums
Base DC: Varies
• Sand Spout (Base DC 10): As a move action you lift sand in a swirling, spiraling pattern with yourself at the top. This allows you to move straight up or down at a rate of up to 20 ft. A sand Spout lasts as long as you concentrate (a swift action, up to a maximum number of rounds equal to your class level), and you can move up or down as you desire. Your maximum speed increase by 5 ft for every 5 by which your sandbending check exceeds the base DC.
• Column (Base DC 20): As a standard action you create a column of sand underneath a single medium creature or object, causing it to rise quickly into the air. The column has a maximum height of 20 ft, plus 5 ft for every 5 by which the sandbender’s skill check exceeds the base DC. A sandbender can lift larger creatures by increasing the DC by 10 for every size category of the increase. A sandbender can also lift multiple smaller creatures if they would fit within the space of the largest creature the sandbender can lift. A creature can make a Reflex save to avoid being lifted, and must make a DC 10 Balance check to remain standing. Creatures and objects take 4d6 damage if they are caught between the column and a hard ceiling, and must make a DC 20 Strength or Escape Artist check in order to move.
Sand Storm
Base DC: 20
Sand storm: Stormwinds forms a cone of air which extends to the end of the sandbender's bending range which he may maintain by making an sandbending check each round at half of the initial DC to maintain. Using this technique is a full round action, and the wind blows until the sandbender’s next turn. This wind begins at a DC of 20 to begin at a wind category of Severe. The seed can be maintained up to a number of rounds equal to the bender's sandbender level. By adding +10 to the sandbending DC, the sandbender may increase the force of this wind one stage per increase of the DC. Each round the opponent is trapped within the sandstorm they take 1d4 points of piercing damage from the sand particles piercing their skin.
Sand Coffin
Base DC: Varies
Through use of this seed the sandbender may entrap an opponent and crush him. First the sandbender makes a sand bending check (DC= the opponents AC – armour bonus+4 times the opponents dex modifier) if he succeeds the opponent is trapped in the sand. Each round that the opponent is ensnared he is allowed a reflex save to get out (DC= 10 + Half total levels of Earthbender and Sandbender + Wis Mod+3 for every 5 points you beat the sandbending DC by). Each round the opponent is within the opponent is trapped within the cocoon he takes 1d6 points of lethal damage. The sandbender must mantain concentration each round to mantain this seed.
Golem
Base DC: 15
By molding a large mass of Sand into a vaguely human-shaped structure, a sandbender can create a powerful proxy to fight in her place.
• Creation and control: As a full round action, a Sandbender can create a golem that she can direct in combat. The golem is a Medium animated object composed of sand. The sandbender must direct its actions in combat by making a sandbending check equal to the original sandbending DC as a full-round action, with the golem essentially mimicking the actions taken by the sandbender. If the sandbender does not concentrate on maintaining and directing the golem or fails the sandbending check to control it, the golem collapses. The golem's attack rolls use the sandbender’s base attack bonus and are modified by the sandbender's Wisdom modifier instead of the golem's Strength modifier. Also, a golem made of primarily of sand has no hardness, but has double the usual hit points for an animated object of the same size. A sandbender can control a golem she can't see, but the golem is considered blind. Additionally, the sandbender cannot see through the golem, and thus is limited to the vision range of her current location.
• Attacks: Because the golem is essentially a reflection of its bender’s actions, it can use its slam attack at the same rate as the bender’s unarmed strikes, along with whatever extra modifiers gained therein (Weapon Focus, etc.).
• Size: The sandbender can increase the size of the golem by adding 5 to the DC for every size increase desired, creating an animated object of the appropriate size. For example, increasing the DC to 35 allows the sandbender to create a Gargantuan golem.
• Enhancement: A sandbender can increase the golem’s physical ability scores by adding 2 to the DC for every +1 to a single score. The sandbender cannot increase the golem’s ability scores by an amount greater than her Wisdom modifier. A sandbender with a Wisdom modifier of +5 could increase the golem’s Strength or Dexterity (or both with a high enough Waterbending check) scores by a maximum of 5, increasing the sandbending DC by 10 in the process.
Sand Shield
Base DC: 10
• Plane: By bending a five-foot square of sand to hover vertically before her, the Sandbender gains a +5 deflection bonus to AC from ranged attacks from one direction (use a line of effect to determine this), as well as concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance) against opponents more than 5 feet away in that direction. This seed does not affect melee attacks in any way. For every 4 points by which the Sandbending check exceeds the DC, the AC bonus increases by 1; and increasing the width of the square by 5 ft. adds +5 to the DC. The Sandbender may rotate the shield around her as a swift action.
• Hemisphere: Conversely, the sandbender can make a complete 360 degrees of Sand anywhere within her bending range, granting whoever is inside concealment from outside the Hemisphere, and vice-versa. Ranged attacks going in or out suffer the deflection bonus noted above, but any creature my simply walk into or out of the dome. The base DC is for a sphere with a 5-foot radius, though this can be increased by adding +5 for every additional 5-foot increase in radius.
Sand Shards
Base DC: 10

• Ranged: By making sand into a number of small, smooth, thin shards, a sandbender can strike at long range. This seed deals 1d6 damage to a single creature as a ranged attack with with a maximum range equal to the sandbender's bending range. Half of this damage is piercing and half is fire. Increasing the damage dealt by this seed adds +4 to the sandbending DC for each additional +1d6, to a maximum of 1d6/level.
• Entraping Shards (DC 30): By maneuvering shards of sand with pinpoint accuracy, powerful sandbenders can pin an opponent to a hard surface. If she succeeds in a ranged attack using the sand Shards seed, a sandbender can initiate a grapple attempt instead of dealing damage. The target must be within 5 feet of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck and must be wearing some sort of clothing, armor, or other accoutrement. To break free, the victim must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape Artist check as a standard action. By increasing the DC of the form by 10, a sandbender can cause the sand shards to originate high in the air, allowing her to pin opponents to the ground instead of to a vertical surface.
Dust
Base DC: 10
By using limited control over small particles of earth, an sandbender obscures vision and blinds her foes.
• Dust cloud: An sandbender may make a hemisphere of sand anywhere within her bending range with a radius of 10 ft. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target). A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round. This seed even functions underwater. Increasing the radius of the cloud adds +5 to the Sandbending DC per 5-foot increase.
• Blind: By aiming a spray of sand or dust at an opponent’s eyes, an sandbender can try to temporarily blind the creature. The sandbender makes a ranged touch attack against a target’s AC, taking -5 on the attack roll because of the small area targeted. If the attack is successful, the target creature is rendered blind until the end of its next round.
Dessert Avalanche
Base DC: 40
Using this technique the user creates a huge tidal wave of sand. The user rises up a huge wave any creatures (friend or foe) must make a reflex save (DC=10 + Half total levels of Earthbender and Sandbender + Wis Mod+1 for every poin t you beat the sandbending DC) or be caught in the wave. The wave then moves forward a number of feet equal to your sand bending check. Any creatures within the first ten feet take 1d6 points of damage/ 10 you make the check by and loses 1d6 every 10 feet. Example, Garra uses this technique. He makes a check and gets 50, his wave deals 5d6 points of damage in the first 10 feet, 4d6 in the next 10 feet, 3d6 in the next 10 feet, 2d6 in the next 10 feet, and finally 1d6 in the last 10 feet.
Floating Dessert
Base DC: 20
Using this seed the sand bender creates a small “island” of sand underneath their feet and makes it float. The sand bender is treated as having a fly speed of 30 feet (by increasing the DC of the Sandbending check by 3 you can increase the speed by 5 feet for each 3 you increase the DC, with a good manuverability if you increase the sandbending DC by 5 you may increase the manuverability. You may hover through use of this seed. If you increase the DC by 10 you may take another medium sized creature for each 10 you incease the DC.You must mantain concentration in order to keep this seed going. You can be knocked off the island through a beull rush but for land based creatures it will be hard to make it to you. This lasts a number of rounds equal to your sandbender level. If you are in the air well the effect ends you fall taking approipiate damage.
Sand Shower
DC: 25
Using this seed creates a shower of sand shards. This seed creates a cloud of sand with a radius of 20 feet (you may increase the radius by 5 feet for every 4 points you increase the DC). Every opponent trapped within the cloud takes 1d4 points of damage each round they are trapped in the cloud. This lasts a number of rounds equal to you sandbender level (you may increase the Dc by 3 for each extra round you may have).
Armor
Base DC: 15
The element of sand is known for substance and its powers of protection, and can be used as a solid barrier against harm.
• Earthen Armor: By covering her entire body in a thick layer of sand, a sandbender gains DR 5/piercing, and +2 to AC (including touch AC) as a move action. For every 3 points by which the sandbender exceeds the base DC, the damage reduction increases by 1. Maintaining the sand armor for more than two rounds gives a -4 penalty to all sandbending checks until the sandbender ends the seed, increasing by -1 every two turns. If this penalty actually makes the difference that causes an sandbender to fail a sandbending check, she may choose to end the seed and remove the penalty at that time. An sandbender can concentrate on maintaining this seed as a Swift action.
Steady Stance
Base DC: 15
By encasing her feet in sand, an sandbender can better resist attempts to move her, or trap opponents in place.
• Defensive: Stabilizing herself with feet solidly connected to the ground, a earthbender gains a +2 to saves or checks to stay in place, +1 for every point by which the Earthbending check exceeds the DC. The earthbender may also encase the feet of allies within her bending range in this way by adding +4 to the DC per ally. Those affected by this seed can move from their square if they want, but doing so ends the seed.
• Offensive: By surrounding an enemy’s feet in sand and solidifying it suddenly, an sandbender may prevent an enemy from advancing. The target of this seed makes a Reflex save to avoid it altogether, or remain trapped in place. Those who failed the Reflex save can make a Strength check equal to three fourths (.75) of the sandbending check to break free, or may spend a full-round action digging out of the sand with a light weapon. The sandbender may use this seed against multiple opponents, but doing so adds +4 to the Sandbending DC per additional opponent.
Compact
Base DC: 15
Sand poses a serious problem for people, since it hinders their ability to use the earth around them.
• A place to stand: An sandbender may use this form to fuse any loose sand into a much sturdier surface. An sandbender may create one 5-foot square, plus another for every 2 points by which the sandbending check beats the DC. These squares must all be touching at least one other square and at least one must touch the sandbender. This negates the penalties for standing on sand and the movement penalties for rough ground, as well as those for using the Tremorsense.
• Soften Landing: Similar to Soften Earth, this use of the seed allows a falling sandbender to soften the ground below her before she lands as an immediate action once per round, taking damage as if she had fallen half the actual distance.
Catapult
Base DC: 20
Sandbenders are often the least mobile of the elements; preferring a solid stance to a quick dodge. This, however, is not always the case.
• Transport: By using this seed, an sandbender thrusts a small column of sand powerfully up from below her at any angle she wishes as a move action, launching herself or another creature or object 20 ft in any direction (including straight up). This distance can be increased by 5 ft for every 2 points by which the sandbending check exceeds the DC, and affecting an additional target adds +4 to the DC per target. The height of the creature’s trajectory at its peak is half the horizontal distance (unless, of course, there is no horizontal distance covered), and the height can be doubled by halving the distance.
• Knockback: An sandbender can also use this seed as a way to launch opponents away or into other obstacles. The form works just as above, except that it is a standard action, the target receives a reflex save to avoid it, and if this seed throws an opponent into a solid obstacle (a cliff wall, a tree, etc.) the target takes 1d6 damage for every 5 points of the sandbending check.
Excavate
Base DC: 20
Oftentimes, the ability to Move sand simply isn’t enough to make a proper tunnel or trench. Using this seed pushes sand aside, as opposed to taking it and dumping it elsewhere.
• Hole: This seed can make a hole approximately the shape of a 5-foot cube as a standard action, plus another such cube for every 4 points by which the sandbending check beats the DC. The sand used in this seed is piled around the edges of the excavation, adding a loose wall of sand three feet high around the sides.
• Tunnel By digging directly into the earth, in which case she begins by making a hole (as above) and then making it deeper, or making it horizontal beneath the ground. The sand moved aside by this seed is compacted around the sides of the excavation, making a noticeable bulge in the ground if the tunnel is within 5 ft of the surface.
Rift
Base DC: 35
By opening a fissure directly beneath an opponent’s feet and snapping it suddenly shut around his chest, an sandbender can disable powerful opponents before they become a threat.
• Engulf: An sandbender opens a large crack directly beneath her opponent’s feet, causing him to fall in, then snaps the crevice shut around him. The target receives a Reflex save to avoid falling into the fissure up to his neck. A target of this form is considered helpless while engulfed, though he may take any actions not requiring somatic components and can escape with a DC 25 Strength or a DC 40 Escape Artist check, or he may be dug out of his predicament. If this seed is done on a sand, the target also takes 4d6 crushing damage on a failed save.

Although its not quite what like you were describing but its a start if anything and yes, I understand that the table is mess I just don't know how to fix that on these boards.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-20, 11:43 AM

To be perfectly honest, Mindflayer, the reason I don't like the class as you've written it is that it's too much like the other bending classes. Rift, Excavate, Catapult, Armor, Column, Dust, and Golem are all taken straight from the earthbender, and Sand Shards, Sand Shield, Desert Avalanche and Sand Columns is taken straight from the waterbender, while Sand Storm is an adaptation of the airbender's Stormwinds.

That, and it's a ten-level prestige class, so a character can't be a full-time sandbender in a high-level campaign.

Now, I probably would have done something similar in terms of using waterbending seeds and adapting them, but the class really does need something new and different. You've got a solid foundation of a class here, but it would need some revamping and polishing. We can either give the existing sandbender class a tune-up, or we can start from the bottom up. What does the playground say?

Mindflayer

2008-07-20, 11:49 AM

Now, I probably would have done something similar in terms of using waterbending seeds and adapting them, but the class really does need something new and different. You've got a solid foundation of a class here, but it would need some revamping and polishing. We can either give the existing sandbender class a tune-up, or we can start from the bottom up. What does the playground say?

Thats what I was talking about at the bottom when I re-posted the class :smallsmile:

Zak Crimsonleaf

2008-07-20, 12:49 PM

I think I like the idea of making it a twenty-level prestige class, and of being able to take levels in it in the way you describe. By this, I put my vote in for starting from the ground up. Some of the existing sandbending seeds could still be used, though.

Mindflayer

2008-07-20, 04:15 PM

The bonus to firebending from the Comet should be way bigger. Even the firebender minions start using much bigger blasts.

Which would be fair since you can bet the full-moon will come up quite often in games - maybe once every few adventures. The Comet on the other hand will either arrive once in an entire campaign or not at all.

I aggree thinking about the scene where
toph broke into the airship, the blasts the guard were using were gigantic. at one point they even filled the entire room

dman11235

2008-07-20, 04:56 PM

Hey, look who's back! The forums (and me)!

You know what I think about sandbending? And variant bendings in general (blood, metal, lava, etc.)? I think that they are just new seeds that the benders learn. Toph is now able to sandbend, without giving any indication of PrCs. Blood is of course just a seed. Metal, well, that's just really strong earthbending, as had been covered by both Toph and Bumi being able to do it (Bumi's not as powerful as Toph though, so can't do it as much), and they don't seem to have varied from the path of Earthbender. It's just enough wisdom to be able to use different forms of the element (after all, sand is very fine particles of earth, and metal is also earth to a degree, even more so if you focus on the impurities, lava is earth, only liquid, etc.).

I'll be getting back into things here slowly. I've got some other projects that will be taking most of my time, so I'll just be popping in here with suggestions every now and then.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-20, 08:22 PM

I think sandbending is an exception to the pattern of blood, metal, lightning, and plants in that one does not need to be exceptionally powerful in order to do it, and even normal earthbenders seem to have the ability to fling sand vaguely about. The trick is in refining the ability to do so, as the bandits in the desert have. That implies specialization, and thus neglect of other aspects of earthbending. In other words, a prestige class.

Also, Toph never demonstrated any practical application of sandbending other than sand-sculpting, so it doesn't seem as if it has become useful to her at this point. I cast my vote in favor of making a sandbending PrC from the ground up.

felinoel

2008-07-20, 08:37 PM

GryffonDurime

2008-07-20, 08:39 PM

felinoel

2008-07-20, 08:56 PM

This may be inviting a bit too much granularity, but perhaps the Sandbender and Earthbender could, with sufficient source of training, trade levels in one class for another akin to the Paladin and the Blackguard?

If Sandbending is its own class (and I must have overlooked that but by the way that was worded it seems so), then Swampbending should be its own class too, those swampbenders bend extremely differently then regular waterbenders, these ones are more rigid while regular ones are much more loose and fluid

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-20, 09:02 PM

dman11235

2008-07-20, 09:43 PM

That's the thing. I don't think the sandbenders were all that different from Toph. The way Toph did it was certainly the same way she usually earthbends.

Now, something that lets you specialize with it, that's different, but just being able to do it: everyone should be able to.

felinoel

2008-07-20, 09:43 PM

Meh. The swampbenders' abilities didn't seem different enough from Katara's, even if their motions were. They used the same moves and worked together to make waves and propel Sokka's submarines. Toph's motions are patently different from standard earthbending, but I'm pretty sure she's a normal earthbender and not some other class.

Plantbending, on the other hand, might require its own class for specialists, but I'm not going to be the one to write up that mechanical monstrosity.

Isn't vinebending already on the site?

That's the thing. I don't think the sandbenders were all that different from Toph. The way Toph did it was certainly the same way she usually earthbends.

Now, something that lets you specialize with it, that's different, but just being able to do it: everyone should be able to.
All earthbenders should be able to bend sand... Its just that sandbenders seem to have different moves when doing that, like swampbenders and waterbenders

Katasi

2008-07-21, 02:06 AM

felinoel

2008-07-21, 02:09 AM

I have a suggestion, this is based off the Jedi classes of Star Wars Revised- maybe you should specify a level at which a character becomes a "master" bender (I suggest either 5,7 or 10, leaning toward 7) and give a bonus feat for becoming a master, selected off a given list.

Well, Katara's level was near epic when she became a master waterbender right? So shouldn't it be nearer to epic level?

Katasi

2008-07-21, 02:36 AM

Well, Katara's level was near epic when she became a master waterbender right? So shouldn't it be nearer to epic level?

I'm not so sure Katara's level was near epic at the point she was named a master, I'd say it was more in the 7-10 range. She seems to grow in power at an astonding rate, all of the characters do, I'd guess she gained a level of waterbending every 4-5 episodes, and yes, I realized that would never happen in a actual game.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 02:44 AM

I'm not so sure Katara's level was near epic at the point she was named a master, I'd say it was more in the 7-10 range. She seems to grow in power at an astonding rate, all of the characters do, I'd guess she gained a level of waterbending every 4-5 episodes, and yes, I realized that would never happen in a actual game.

Not trying to be mean or rude in any way (to Mephibosheth), but Mephibosheth thinks they can get 3 levels in one real time day, not even using the whole 24 hours, maybe just 12

Katasi

2008-07-21, 03:40 AM

Not trying to be mean or rude in any way (to Mephibosheth), but Mephibosheth thinks they can get 3 levels in one real time day, not even using the whole 24 hours, maybe just 12

depending on how many battles there are, yeah, levels can accumulate quick. I'm used to games that include more RP and very sparse fighting so yeah, I suppose I'm just used to leveling slower than the norm. And benders do have the potential to level fast. I'd still say "mastery" is prolly around level 7 though.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 04:46 AM

depending on how many battles there are, yeah, levels can accumulate quick. I'm used to games that include more RP and very sparse fighting so yeah, I suppose I'm just used to leveling slower than the norm. And benders do have the potential to level fast. I'd still say "mastery" is prolly around level 7 though.

No battles, it was Sokka being trained by the Kyoshi Warriors

EDIT:
Again, no insult intended at the Mephster

Katasi

2008-07-21, 06:31 AM

No battles, it was Sokka being trained by the Kyoshi Warriors

EDIT:
Again, no insult intended at the Mephster

I'm not entirely sure if that counts as 3 full levels, in fact it may only count for 1 level, or possibly just the fluff training for realization of a new level. Sokka's training with his sword master though definatly increased his level though.... although technically game wise he should have only gain fairly little xp for that, so he was prolly about halfway or more to a new level anyway.

I also came up with a new idea, it may have been come up with before and I missed it though:

Cooperative Bending:
Two or more benders from different nations may combine seeds together.

Using this two benders would combine the power of their elements together, for example a firebender could combine Fire Burst with and earthbender's Stone Armor to give flaming earth armor, or bend fire into Blades of Flame over a waterbender's Water Whip. The bending DCs for each seed added are increased by +2 for non-opposing elements, ie- fire or water with earth or air, or +5 for opposing elements. Bending with someone else makes it a good bit more difficult to bend your own element as well. Each bender must make the DC for their own seeds (including penalties for cooperative bending), plus increasing the DC for their bending by half the DCs of the seeds used by the other bender (including penalties for cooperative bending, rounded up).

In the given examples:

To combine Fire Burst and Stone Armor:
The DC for the earthbender is equal to Stone Armor (DC 15) +2 for bending with a non-opposing element, for a DC of 17, plus one half of Fire Burst (DC 25+2, for DC27, divided by 2 rounded up= DC 14), for a total earthbending DC of 31.

The DC for the firebender is equal to Fire Burst (DC 25) +2 for bending with a non-opposing element, for a DC of 27, plus one half of Stone Armor (DC 15+2, for DC 17, divided by 2, rounded up= DC 9) for a total firebending DC of 36.

To combine Blades of Fire and Water Whip:
The DC for the waterbender is equal to Water Whip (DC 10) +5 for bending with an opposing element, for a DC of 15, plus one half of Blades of Fire (DC 10+5, for DC 15, divided by 2, rounded up= DC 8), for a total waterbending DC of 23.

The DC for the firebender is equal to Blades of Fire (DC 10) +5 for bending with an opposing element, for a DC of 15, plus one half of Water Whip (DC 10+5, for DC 15, divided by 2, rounded up= DC 8), for a total firebending DC of 23.

Using this it's easy to see why in the show the only one you see really using combinations of elements is the Avatar, generally even when you have groups of different benders they still prefer to attack on their own- the DCs for cooperative bending can really add up, as well as all the benders contributing to it sacrifice actions for one single attack. But I can see times when this could be used. (In fact I think this may be what happened in the Drill, with Katara contributing manipulate and toph contributing move a rock, thus providing each greater control over the slurry as a whole. I would assume that the Avatar could combine seeds from different elements for no DC increase for non-opposing elements, and only a +2 increase for opposing elements, and those DCs would be used when the Avatar cooperatively bends with other benders.

Last but defiantly not least this is only for two or more benders of different disciplines. If two waterbenders are both bending the same water it falls under aid another, not cooperative bending. However if you have 2 or more benders at hand for any or all of the elements used in cooperative bending, they could use aid another to help out the main benders.

I kind of like this concept, as it really give the feel of one world where all the elements have a part and can work in harmony with eachother. What does everyone else think?

felinoel

2008-07-21, 06:35 AM

With Piandao, Sokka trained for three days, with Suki, he trained for one, and I think Sokka only should have gotten one level from Suki too

Katasi

2008-07-21, 06:37 AM

With Piandao, Sokka trained for three days, with Suki, he trained for one, and I think Sokka only should have gotten one level from Suki too

Again, with training with Suki I'm guessing that he was prolly halfway or more to a new level, and the training gave him the xp to push him over.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 06:39 AM

Again, with training with Suki I'm guessing that he was prolly halfway or more to a new level, and the training gave him the xp to push him over.

Have you seen his character sheet?

Katasi

2008-07-21, 06:43 AM

Have you seen his character sheet?

No, but I'm basing my arguements off of a couple years of playing and DMing DnD games, which while different in actual play, are probably a good basis to go by for things like XP gain basis.... although i do admit that the main character DO tend to seem like they are gaining XP faster than they should, although we don't know the exact propotionate level of their opponents and trainers either, and I've been in a few battles in DnD that where difficult enough to warrant a full level worth of XP for a single battle, and there's been a few "epic" battles in the Avatar series.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 06:45 AM

No, but I'm basing my arguements off of a couple years of playing and DMing DnD games, which while different in actual play, are probably a good basis to go by for things like XP gain basis.... although i do admit that the main character DO tend to seem like they are gaining XP faster than they should, although we don't know the exact propotionate level of their opponents and trainers either, and I've been in a few battles in DnD that where difficult enough to warrant a full level worth of XP for a single battle, and there's been a few "epic" battles in the Avatar series.

Why not look?
http://avatar.d20.googlepages.com/sokka

Katasi

2008-07-21, 06:47 AM

Why not look?
http://avatar.d20.googlepages.com/sokka

I assume this is the build for Sokka for the final battle, not at the beginning or somewhere in the middle?

felinoel

2008-07-21, 06:50 AM

I assume this is the build for Sokka for the final battle, not at the beginning or somewhere in the middle?
It was in the middle near the end-ish when those were made

Katasi

2008-07-21, 06:53 AM

It was in the middle near the end-ish when those were made

ah. Well they make sense, though I'm not sure they are the builds I would use for him. The hard part is that these don't give his power level at the points we are actually discussing, as well as they are just estimates, although I'm betting reasonably close estimates. Of course then again PCs do level fast when given no downtime, and Team Avatar was given very little during the series, so it make sense that they leveled fast..... but as a DM I'd prolly find ways to insert downtime for more role-play driven things.

Btw, what do you think of cooperative bending?

felinoel

2008-07-21, 06:56 AM

ah. Well they make sense, though I'm not sure they are the builds I would use for him. The hard part is that these don't give his power level at the points we are actually discussing, as well as they are just estimates, although I'm betting reasonably close estimates. Of course then again PCs do level fast when given no downtime, and Team Avatar was given very little during the series, so it make sense that they leveled fast..... but as a DM I'd prolly find ways to insert downtime for more role-play driven things.

Btw, what do you think of cooperative bending?I was considering giving my build a few more levels in ranger after I saw Sokka identifying tracks, that might bring him up to speed with him at the finale...

Yea its good they do it in the show why not here?

Katasi

2008-07-21, 07:01 AM

I was considering giving my build a few more levels in ranger after I saw Sokka identifying tracks, that might bring him up to speed with him at the finale...

Yea its good they do it in the show why not here?

Hmm, I think Sokka could possibly have a level or two in ranger, but I think his ability to ID tracks could just be attributed to a high survival skill, and possible the track feat, rather than actual ranger levels. In fact I think mixing fighter levels with martial wilderness rogue could produce something close to sokka (notice I say martial rogue, none of Sokka's attacks strike me as sneak attacks). I say that because somehow, wild empathy doesn't seem to fit.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 07:05 AM

Hmm, I think Sokka could possibly have a level or two in ranger, but I think his ability to ID tracks could just be attributed to a high survival skill, and possible the track feat, rather than actual ranger levels. In fact I think mixing fighter levels with martial wilderness rogue could produce something close to sokka (notice I say martial rogue, none of Sokka's attacks strike me as sneak attacks). I say that because somehow, wild empathy doesn't seem to fit.

Yea I forgot about martial rogue, but I gave him ranger because of the favored enviroment, if I had remembered it I would have used it, and one time when he tries a sneak attack he fails completely because he actually yells, "Sneak attack!" while doing it

Katasi

2008-07-21, 07:19 AM

Yea I forgot about martial rogue, but I gave him ranger because of the favored enviroment, if I had remembered it I would have used it, and one time when he tries a sneak attack he fails completely because he actually yells, "Sneak attack!" while doing it

Hmm.... yeah, favored environment fits. Although Sokka never seems to be more or less effective depending on his environment, but I could be wrong. He does however have an amazing amount of knowledge about the fire nation, so favored enemy COULD be in play there, or just a very high knowledge skill. Perhaps switch out wild empathy for something? Which is, I assume what you did with animal companion? Switched it out for another ability, in that cast Favored Enemy (Fire Nation Military)?

felinoel

2008-07-21, 07:21 AM

Hmm.... yeah, favored environment fits. Although Sokka never seems to be more or less effective depending on his environment, but I could be wrong. He does however have an amazing amount of knowledge about the fire nation, so favored enemy COULD be in play there, or just a very high knowledge skill. Perhaps switch out wild empathy for something? Which is, I assume what you did with animal companion? Switched it out for another ability, in that cast Favored Enemy (Fire Nation Military)?
Oops, sorry must have been my lack of sleep but I meant to say it was because of favored enemy, he loves attacking fire nationers

Katasi

2008-07-21, 07:27 AM

Oops, sorry must have been my lack of sleep but I meant to say it was because of favored enemy, he loves attacking fire nationers

Lol, you have him with both favored environment and favored enemy, which does work out because you don't have animal companion, which Sokka doesn't have one of.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 07:33 AM

Lol, you have him with both favored environment and favored enemy, which does work out because you don't have animal companion, which Sokka doesn't have one of.

What about Hawky?

EDIT:
He loses Hawky to the Bei Fong family anyways

Katasi

2008-07-21, 07:40 AM

What about Hawky?

EDIT:
He loses Hawky to the Bei Fong family anyways

Hawky was a pet, not a animal companion. Same as a horse for most characters that don't get animal companion/special mount in a normal DnD campaign.

I think sandbending is an exception to the pattern of blood, metal, lightning, and plants in that one does not need to be exceptionally powerful in order to do it, and even normal earthbenders seem to have the ability to fling sand vaguely about. The trick is in refining the ability to do so, as the bandits in the desert have. That implies specialization, and thus neglect of other aspects of earthbending. In other words, a prestige class.

Also, Toph never demonstrated any practical application of sandbending other than sand-sculpting, so it doesn't seem as if it has become useful to her at this point. I cast my vote in favor of making a sandbending PrC from the ground up.

What about having a sandbender 20 level PrC AND a sandbending template seed for those that are practiced in sandbending but not specialized in it? Have it so that the sandbender PrC makes more sense for those who plan to be bending sand regularly or solely, but the template seed gives a little extra punch over a normal earthbender when using sand.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 07:45 AM

Hawky was a pet, not a animal companion. Same as a horse for most characters that don't get animal companion/special mount in a normal DnD campaign.

What about having a sandbender 20 level PrC AND a sandbending template seed for those that are practiced in sandbending but not specialized in it? Have it so that the sandbender PrC makes more sense for those who plan to be bending sand regularly or solely, but the template seed gives a little extra punch over a normal earthbender when using sand.

Hmmm, yea thats a good idea, but I still say swampbending might be different, the Avatar wiki says swampbending seems better at propulsion and accuracy

Katasi

2008-07-21, 07:55 AM

Hmmm, yea thats a good idea, but I still say swampbending might be different, the Avatar wiki says swampbending seems better at propulsion and accuracy

I think that difference could actually be accounted for just in the seeds they normally take. While a normal waterbender would prolly take water whip and ice shard, the swamp benders would take bend plants and propel, out of personal preferance. But I could see arguments for both sides.... perhaps a compromise of some sort in the form of something akin to the ranger's weapon styles, giving a -2 or so reduction to the DCs of certain seeds that would be pretty much unique to a given style.... and probably a +2 or so increase to the DCs of seeds unique to the opposing style. Might have to try to come up with some more seeds that scream "swamp style" though.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 07:59 AM

I think that difference could actually be accounted for just in the seeds they normally take. While a normal waterbender would prolly take water whip and ice shard, the swamp benders would take bend plants and propel, out of personal preferance. But I could see arguments for both sides.... perhaps a compromise of some sort in the form of something akin to the ranger's weapon styles, giving a -2 or so reduction to the DCs of certain seeds that would be pretty much unique to a given style.... and probably a +2 or so increase to the DCs of seeds unique to the opposing style. Might have to try to come up with some more seeds that scream "swamp style" though.

What seeds would? :smallconfused:

Katasi

2008-07-21, 08:06 AM

What seeds would?

Bend plants for one is an obvious swamp style, while ice shards is an obvious polar. Propel seems like a standard one for the swamp style, while more of a specialist one for polar. While Blizzard is another one that's obviously polar. I'm thinking about having it where a bender could take a feat to learn the other style as well. But I'm really not sure. I'm just throwing out ideas.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 08:09 AM

Bend plants for one is an obvious swamp style, while ice shards is an obvious polar. Propel seems like a standard one for the swamp style, while more of a specialist one for polar. While Blizzard is another one that's obviously polar. I'm thinking about having it where a bender could take a feat to learn the other style as well. But I'm really not sure. I'm just throwing out ideas.

Why wouldn't a swampbender freeze their water? If a regular bender can superheat their water to produce a fog covering I don't see why this?

Katasi

2008-07-21, 08:17 AM

Why wouldn't a swampbender freeze their water? If a regular bender can superheat their water to produce a fog covering I don't see why this?

I never said they couldn't or didn't, just that doing so seems like it would be a little bit less common for someone there to work with frozen stuff than it would be for someone from a polar environment who grew up with plenty of pre-frozen material to learn with.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-21, 08:56 AM

AstralFire

2008-07-21, 09:20 AM

I know you said Burning Rush would work to demonstrate firebenders who fly, but a certain Old Master in the finale was able to levitate and fight from that position, and while I see the appeal in anyone insisting on flying having to brace the risk of falling when they attack, there's no way for them to actually get a mid-air boost from the seed currently. Perhaps a very high level seed could grant a fly speed with clumsy or poor maneuverability and a hover?

Katasi

2008-07-21, 09:29 AM

See, we call this in the business a thread derailing. Let's bring this baby back on its way to Ba Sing Se, eh? The Sokka leveling is not particularly relevant to the bending system, so let's let it lie where it is. As for the different "styles" of waterbending, it is a possibility, but I'd make it an optional one, like regional traits and the like. I had considered putting regional traits in the original write-up, but, again, it was something that would have been tedious and tenuously based on canon at best. If anyone wants to write up a series of regional traits representing different types of bending (Sun Warrior vs. Fire Nation, for example) and their pros and cons, then go for it. But I'm not going to be the one writing up that kind of flame-bait. I'm more of a seeds 'n' forms kinda guy.

Relevant discussions that have not been concluded are these:
Deciding whether to adapt the existing Sandbending PrC or to scrap it and start from the ground up.
Developing and deciding whether this system should allow cross-element cooperative bending.
Deciding whether the term "Master Bender" should have a mechanical context, as per "Master Jedi" in SWRPG.
Even Toph, already an extremely powerful earthbender in Book 2, could only vaguely fling sand about in The Library and The Desert. That would imply that while all earthbenders can learn to bend sand, it does require special training to do effectively. I would also like to point everyone towards the Dust earthbending seed, which does allow basic control over small particles of earth; i.e. sand.

Now let's start on deciding these three things, huh? My cote on Sandbending has already been cast, making it 2 - 0 in favor of starting from scratch.

I'm not particularly keen on making a system for cross-element cooperative bending. We've never seen it in the show except when two benders were essentially doing the same thing. For the Avatar, normal rules for creating forms would apply. Now, Katasi, your idea is intriguing, but it's a bit clumsy to read. Could you try and explain it so that I can understand it through the illiterate haze that overcomes me during summer vacation?

I'm only opposed to bonus feats for benders because of balance issues. I also don't like the idea of "Master Waterbender" being an actual mechanic in the classes, and it definitely shouldn't be before level 15 if the mechanic were to exist. This makes the vote 0 - 1 against using "Master Bender" as a mechanic.

Basically for Cooperative Bending, each bender's DC for their bending skill is increased by either +2 or +5, depending on if the element of the other bender is opposed to their element or not. Their DC is based on the full DC of all of their seeds, plus half the DC of any seeds of other elements. The increased DC applies to all seeds, not just seeds of the bender's own element, but it goes onto the other elemental seeds before halving the DC.

Basically the bending DC becomes equal to the combined DCs of all the seeds that belong to the bender, plus half the combined DCs of the seeds that belong to other benders, with the increased DCs for cooperative bending figured in.

As for "Master Bender" I just want something in there somewhere that says to everyone "This is where a bender is considered a master." And if a feat is to much of a breaker for a mechanic, what about a simple +1 bonus to the respective bending skill?

And on the sandbending thing, I still support my argument. Maybe make bending sand a major increase in DC for a normal earthbender, make a sandbending template seed that is still an increase over normal earthbending, but only about half or so that of it without having the seed, and then have an earthbender PrC that can bend sand with no penalty, and gets sandbender only seeds?

I know you said Burning Rush would work to demonstrate firebenders who fly, but a certain Old Master in the finale was able to levitate and fight from that position, and while I see the appeal in anyone insisting on flying having to brace the risk of falling when they attack, there's no way for them to actually get a mid-air boost from the seed currently. Perhaps a very high level seed could grant a fly speed with clumsy or poor maneuverability and a hover?

I'd say if there was one like this it would probably be a higher DC than bloodbending, probably around 60-65, since good flight/hover using fire from the feet was only displayed by two of the most powerful firebenders in the world and then they could only do it during the comet.

AstralFire

2008-07-21, 10:40 AM

I'd say if there was one like this it would probably be a higher DC than bloodbending, probably around 60-65, since good flight/hover using fire from the feet was only displayed by two of the most powerful firebenders in the world and then they could only do it during the comet.

I'm looking at Burning Rush again, and if I understand the system right, it's +30 to convert it to a move action. I think that's about right for crude mid-air propulsion. Let me propose an equally crude solution.

Firebender's Leap: A sudden jet of flames erupts from the bender's legs, allowing him to reach incredible heights. By taking a full-round action to make a jump, a firebender gains a bonus on his Jump equal to his Firebending check, and the jump is not limited by the firebender's height. An additional move action can be taken as part of this seed, but only in order to gain a running start for the jump.

Due to the nature of explosive force, the speed at which this technique is performed can affect its ability to propel the user.

When quickened to a standard action, the bender may use it to slow his fall for the next round, and every additional round he uses a standard action to maintain the flames. The firebender is treated as having fallen no more than 30 feet for the duration of this effect.

When quickened to a move action, it generates explosive force quickly enough that the bender may use it to leap even when there is nothing solid beneath his feet. However, when leaping in mid-air he must move the full distance of his Jump check, even if it carries him further than he wishes. (This restriction is not in place for a normal jump.)

By adding an additional +20 to the DC, the firebender may choose to move less than the distance he is able when leaping in mid-air, including a distance of 0 feet to hover.

Reword or discard as you see fit.

Katasi

2008-07-21, 11:04 AM

I'm looking at Burning Rush again, and if I understand the system right, it's +30 to convert it to a move action. I think that's about right for crude mid-air propulsion. Let me propose an equally crude solution.

Firebender's Leap: A sudden jet of flames erupts from the bender's legs, allowing him to reach incredible heights. By taking a full-round action to make a jump, a firebender gains a bonus on his Jump equal to his Firebending check, and the jump is not limited by the firebender's height. An additional move action can be taken as part of this seed, but only in order to gain a running start for the jump.

Due to the nature of explosive force, the speed at which this technique is performed can affect its ability to propel the user.

When quickened to a standard action, the bender may use it to slow his fall for the next round, and every additional round he uses a standard action to maintain the flames. The firebender is treated as having fallen no more than 30 feet for the duration of this effect.

When quickened to a move action, it generates explosive force quickly enough that the bender may use it to leap even when there is nothing solid beneath his feet. However, when leaping in mid-air he must move the full distance of his Jump check, even if it carries him further than he wishes. (This restriction is not in place for a normal jump.)

By adding an additional +20 to the DC, the firebender may choose to move less than the distance he is able when leaping in mid-air, including a distance of 0 feet to hover.

Reword or discard as you see fit.

hmm, while this kind of seems to work, one thing bothers me- Ozai's maneuverability was not clumsy or poor, it's was rather good.

AstralFire

2008-07-21, 11:07 AM

hmm, while this kind of seems to work, one thing bothers me- Ozai's maneuverability was not clumsy or poor, it's was rather good.

I think that should be covered by the maximum DC (60) allowing you to tailor your jump distance, working like hovering, or precise fast flight. The check still would need to be made every round, though.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 11:18 AM

See, we call this in the business a thread derailing. Let's bring this baby back on its way to Ba Sing Se, eh?Hmmm, we did go a bit off topic for a short while but that was a few posts ago, didn't we make it back on our own?

Anyways in the thread for making forms I posted something or other along the lines of me noticing the canon higher version of airbending, gravitybending, and the people over there didn't seem to mind it too much but everywhere else I go they won't listen to me even though its canon. Any thoughts on this?

Katasi

2008-07-21, 11:19 AM

I think that should be covered by the maximum DC (60) allowing you to tailor your jump distance, working like hovering, or precise fast flight. The check still would need to be made every round, though.

Ok, gotcha. Which would explain why even the most powerful of them can only do it during the comet.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 11:26 AM

Ok, gotcha. Which would explain why even the most powerful of them can only do it during the comet.

Did anyone ever figure out how much power that comet gives? Also how much power a full moon gives?

Katasi

2008-07-21, 11:29 AM

Did anyone ever figure out how much power that comet gives? Also how much power a full moon gives?

I'd guess the full moon would give a +5.... while the comet with as rare as it is, and the obvious effect it had in the show.... probably around a +30.

Enlong

2008-07-21, 11:32 AM

Even Toph, already an extremely powerful earthbender in Book 2, could only vaguely fling sand about in The Library and The Desert. That would imply that while all earthbenders can learn to bend sand, it does require special training to do effectively. I would also like to point everyone towards the Dust earthbending seed, which does allow basic control over small particles of earth; i.e. sand.

Now let's start on deciding these three things, huh? My cote on Sandbending has already been cast, making it 2 - 0 in favor of starting from scratch.

I agree with having a Dust seed. It jives with the fact that Toph was able to work out Sandbending on her own to the point where she was able to make a sand-sculpture of Ba Sing Se.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 11:32 AM

I'd guess the full moon would give a +5.... while the comet with as rare as it is, and the obvious effect it had in the show.... probably around a +30.

Oh wow, that would make even the most novice of firebenders powerful :smalleek:

Mephibosheth

2008-07-21, 11:54 AM

AAAAAAAARGH! So many new posts!

First, let me take a moment to recognize the awesomeness that was Sozin’s Comet.

*stunned and overwhelmed silence*

Now that that’s over with, there’s a lot of stuff to address. I’ll start with Eighth_Seraph’s three item list and move on from there.

1. Sandbending

In the past, I’ve refrained from taking a definite opinion on this issue other than “we don’t have enough information.” By and large, this is still true. We’ve only seen a few sandbending forms (most notably in The Library and The Desert, as well as Toph’s sand sculpture). However, I’m more open to extrapolation now that the series has actually concluded.

I like Eighth_Seraph’s idea of a 20 level prestige class. It seems as though sandbending can be a pretty committed discipline, and the sandbenders of the Si Wong Desert certainly spend their whole lives as sandbenders. However, a 20 level prestige class just seems…weird to me, especially since I would imagine it would look a lot like the Earthbender class with a few alternate abilities.

I propose the following: We alter the Earthbender class description to allow the use of sand and similar particulate matter, but at a -5 penalty. Then we create a separate list of sandbender forms that serve as “substitution forms.” Most of them would be re-worked waterbender or earthbender forms with a few unique sandbending forms worked in. In order to access this list of “substitution forms,” a character would have to take the Sandbender feat, which would probably look something like this:

Sandbender [General]
Benefit: You no longer take a -5 penalty to Earthbending checks when attempting to bend sand, dust, or loose soil. Additionally, if you take levels in the Earthbender class, you may select your bending forms from the list of Sandbender forms.
Normal: Earthbenders take a -5 penalty to Earthbending checks when attempting to bend sand, dust, or loose soil.

Then, as we deem necessary, we create Earthbender substitution levels that are similarly available to any character with the Sandbender feat. Off the top of my head, levels 4, 6, 7, 8, 12, and 19 seem like likely candidates for these substitution levels. Mostly these levels would replace the Earthbender’s Head-On Defense and climb speed with more appropriate abilities, but everything else would be pretty much the same.

2. Cooperative Bending for different disciplines

An interesting idea, and Katasi’s system seems like it could be workable. However, I agree with Eighth_Seraph that this sort of bending isn’t shown in the show at all, even for the Avatar (at least, as far as I can remember). Version 2.0 of the bending classes has rules for cooperative bending in the overview (sorta towards the bottom of the page) that make an allowance for things like cooperative mudbending with waterbenders and earthbenders (like in The Drill). I think that’s as far as we need to take this idea.

3. Master Bender?

In general, I say that if mechanics aren’t absolutely necessary, we should leave things up to flavor and description. I don’t see any reason why being a master bender requires a mechanical representation. The definition of master seems pretty fluid in the show.

4. Level Gaining Mechanic

This issue is somewhat minor, and I’m really only addressing it because I’ve been mentioned by name. I think it’s important to remember that Avatar is a TV show and the creators don’t take the needs or limits of a game system into account when writing the episodes. Sure, it seems ridiculous that Sokka gains 3 levels of Martial Artist in one afternoon, but that’s because, in the show, he’s not actually gaining levels. He’s just learning new techniques, which we then represent in the game system by gaining levels. The iconic character builds we’ve done for the website are just to illustrate how the system works and can be used to represent the characters from the show.

Also note that the iconic character builds were arbitrarily built to level 20 to ensure parity with each other. The general assumption has been that the main characters are close to level 20, but we could be wrong.

Finally, to be perfectly clear, I don’t think anyone can gain 3 levels in one day. I’m not offended or anything, I just want to be clear.

5. Burning Rush and Firebender Flight

The re-tooling of Burning Rush is interesting, but I think it will ultimately be too confusing. I’d just add a new high DC seed or Burning Rush application might be in order. Something along the lines of:

Firebender’s Flight
Base DC: 45
The firebender causes intense flames to burst from his feet, propelling him through the air. Using this seed, a firebender gains a fly speed of 50 ft with clumsy maneuverability. This seed is initiated as a move action and maintained as a swift action, for a maximum number of rounds equal to the firebender’s Wisdom modifier. A firebender can increase his maneuverability or speed by increasing the base DC by +10 for every 10 ft speed increment or every maneuverability increment increase.

6. The affect of the commet

Given the dramatic effects from the series finale, I would support increasing the bonus to +20, but not likely higher than that. +20 is a substantial boost and would allow even 1st level benders to do some pretty crazy stuff.

I hope that’s everything. Thoughts?

Mephibosheth

yosho

2008-07-21, 11:55 AM

Hello all.

Ive been following the avatar d20 project since its first tread. I dislike posting but I guess now is as good a time as ever, so I hope you don't mind if I add my opinion.

1. Sand bending- I strongly disagree that this should be its own special path for the earth bender. It just doesn't seem too be significant enough. My solution is that you make it a feat.

Sand Bending
The earth bender has spent much time studying the workings of sand and other loosely packed earth.
Prerequisites: Earthbending 2 ranks
Benefits: The earth bender can use her seeds and forms in sand and loosely packed earth without penalty. She also gains an ability similar to waterbenders Melt/Freeze in that the user may convert earth to sand and vice versa.
In addition the following seeds are added to the earthbenders list of selectable seeds, though they may only be used with sand.
Ice Shards
Wave
Water whip
Tornado
Normal: An earthbender takes a -10 penalty to his bending check and a -10 ft range while manipulating sand or loosely packed earth.

Also you may want to make the waterbending study and/or airbending study lower the penalty by 5.

2. Fire bending flight- I kind of like katasi's version of it. I vote for something like that, if not simply making a new seed.

3. May I post new seeds, feats, and abilities to be reviewed?
4. I play in a non cannon setting so may I ask for opinions on additional rules that I impose for a non cannon setting?

Well thanks for your time, and this is a great system you guys have made here.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 12:00 PM

2. Cooperative Bending for different disciplines

An interesting idea, and Katasi’s system seems like it could be workable. However, I agree with Eighth_Seraph that this sort of bending isn’t shown in the show at all, even for the Avatar (at least, as far as I can remember). Version 2.0 of the bending classes has rules for cooperative bending in the overview (sorta towards the bottom of the page) that make an allowance for things like cooperative mudbending with waterbenders and earthbenders (like in The Drill). I think that’s as far as we need to take this idea.But it is shown in the show... I remember it, I think it was with Iroh and Zuko fireballing at Aang? I know it was two firebenders...

I hope that’s everything. Thoughts?

MephiboshethAwww you skipped my gravitybending

AstralFire

2008-07-21, 12:14 PM

Meph's version is probably better than mine, as I think it out. It's a little less 'real', but it slows down play a lot less. I believe you can start hovering at good, right? That's doable under a comet/a non-canon setting with magic items.

However, it should be part of the same seed, just a new application. The basic mechanics are the same, after all.

Katasi

2008-07-21, 12:26 PM

But it is shown in the show... I remember it, I think it was with Iroh and Zuko fireballing at Aang? I know it was two firebenders...

Awww you skipped my gravitybending

Actually, two firebenders wouldn't fall under my system, cause that would simply be an aid another roll by the secondary bender. My system was to allow for example water and earth nation soldiers to combine together to produce effects combining both elements.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 12:29 PM

Actually, two firebenders wouldn't fall under my system, cause that would simply be an aid another roll by the secondary bender. My system was to allow for example water and earth nation soldiers to combine together to produce effects combining both elements.

Ah I see, nevermind then =b

Mephibosheth

2008-07-21, 12:47 PM

1. Sand bending- I strongly disagree that this should be its own special path for the earth bender. It just doesn't seem too be significant enough. My solution is that you make it a feat.

Sand Bending
The earth bender has spent much time studying the workings of sand and other loosely packed earth.
Prerequisites: Earthbending 2 ranks
Benefits: The earth bender can use her seeds and forms in sand and loosely packed earth without penalty. She also gains an ability similar to waterbenders Melt/Freeze in that the user may convert earth to sand and vice versa.
In addition the following seeds are added to the earthbenders list of selectable seeds, though they may only be used with sand.
Ice Shards
Wave
Water whip
Tornado
Normal: An earthbender takes a -10 penalty to his bending check and a -10 ft range while manipulating sand or loosely packed earth.

Also you may want to make the waterbending study and/or airbending study lower the penalty by 5.

Welcome to the project! I'm glad you've enjoyed the content so far. This is an interesting take on sandbending. Very similar to my suggestion, but a little simpler and more bare bones. We can definitely consider it.

3. May I post new seeds, feats, and abilities to be reviewed?

Go ahead. Remember though, we're trying to stick as close to the canon of the show as possible.

4. I play in a non cannon setting so may I ask for opinions on additional rules that I impose for a non cannon setting?

I'd suggest posting them in the non-canon content thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69732).

But it is shown in the show... I remember it, I think it was with Iroh and Zuko fireballing at Aang? I know it was two firebenders...

We already have mechanics for this. They're in the version 2.0 classes overview on the website, towards the bottom of the page. They allow benders of the same class to cooperate as well as benders of different classes, as long as there's some substance that both can bend (like waterbenders and earthbenders combining to bend mud).

Awww you skipped my gravitybending

Sorry. I haven't gotten around to reading all the posts in all the threads yet. If you haven't noticed, there are kind of a lot of them :smallwink:.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 12:49 PM

Sorry. I haven't gotten around to reading all the posts in all the threads yet. If you haven't noticed, there are kind of a lot of them :smallwink:.

Probably because of how long the forums were down

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-21, 02:29 PM

Well, Felinoel, one of the functions of your "Gravity bending" is covered under the airbender's Wind Shaping ability, in Hand of Air. And I quote.

• Hand of Air: A technique of convenience, the airbender learns to move objects by manipulating the air pressure and wind currents around an object. So long as an object that weighs less than 5lbs is within his bending range, an airbender may move it anywhere within his bending range. For every 5 by which his Airbending check exceeds the DC, the maximum weight an airbender can manipulate with this ability increases by 5 lbs. Objects shaped so as to catch air (such as an airtight bag) may grant bonuses to this check, and objects specifically designed to be transported in this way halve the DC of Airbending checks used to move them. This object does not travel fast enough to cause damage. This may also be used to simply blow small amounts of air over and around objects, such as to perform minor acts of mischief or to cool hot food.
Granted, that's on a pretty small scale, but still. Do we have any precedent for "heavy gravity" effect from the show?

Zak Crimsonleaf

2008-07-21, 02:52 PM

Not to put things off topic, but upon consideration, I think I prefer Mephibosheth's suggestion for the Sandbender. And no, I can't recall offhand any heavy gravity precedents.

Darkkwalker

2008-07-21, 08:39 PM

I think that it's worth mentioning that in the Blind Bandit, when Toph is fighting off all the Earth Benders at once, after beating them, she makes all the dust settle instantly. fairly simple but still sand-ish bending.

On another note, mechanics for
spirit bending? How'd that work? Opposed charisma checks? It seems like a force of personality and character. So seems like it'd have a heavy roleplay element to it.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 09:59 PM

Mindflayer

2008-07-21, 10:31 PM

Are we thinking of 4e yet because I have already started a waterbender and would like to post it for comments. I don't have any powers yet but have the class done.

felinoel

2008-07-21, 11:03 PM

Are we thinking of 4e yet because I have already started a waterbender and would like to post it for comments. I don't have any powers yet but have the class done.

Oh, are we upgrading to 4e? I thought we weren't

jagadaishio

2008-07-22, 12:56 AM

AAAAAAAARGH! So many new posts!

First, let me take a moment to recognize the awesomeness that was Sozin’s Comet.

*stunned and overwhelmed silence*

Now that that’s over with, there’s a lot of stuff to address. I’ll start with Eighth_Seraph’s three item list and move on from there.

1. Sandbending

In the past, I’ve refrained from taking a definite opinion on this issue other than “we don’t have enough information.” By and large, this is still true. We’ve only seen a few sandbending forms (most notably in The Library and The Desert, as well as Toph’s sand sculpture). However, I’m more open to extrapolation now that the series has actually concluded.

I like Eighth_Seraph’s idea of a 20 level prestige class. It seems as though sandbending can be a pretty committed discipline, and the sandbenders of the Si Wong Desert certainly spend their whole lives as sandbenders. However, a 20 level prestige class just seems…weird to me, especially since I would imagine it would look a lot like the Earthbender class with a few alternate abilities.

I propose the following: We alter the Earthbender class description to allow the use of sand and similar particulate matter, but at a -5 penalty. Then we create a separate list of sandbender forms that serve as “substitution forms.” Most of them would be re-worked waterbender or earthbender forms with a few unique sandbending forms worked in. In order to access this list of “substitution forms,” a character would have to take the Sandbender feat, which would probably look something like this:

Then, as we deem necessary, we create Earthbender substitution levels that are similarly available to any character with the Sandbender feat. Off the top of my head, levels 4, 6, 7, 8, 12, and 19 seem like likely candidates for these substitution levels. Mostly these levels would replace the Earthbender’s Head-On Defense and climb speed with more appropriate abilities, but everything else would be pretty much the same.

2. Cooperative Bending for different disciplines

An interesting idea, and Katasi’s system seems like it could be workable. However, I agree with Eighth_Seraph that this sort of bending isn’t shown in the show at all, even for the Avatar (at least, as far as I can remember). Version 2.0 of the bending classes has rules for cooperative bending in the overview (sorta towards the bottom of the page) that make an allowance for things like cooperative mudbending with waterbenders and earthbenders (like in The Drill). I think that’s as far as we need to take this idea.

3. Master Bender?

In general, I say that if mechanics aren’t absolutely necessary, we should leave things up to flavor and description. I don’t see any reason why being a master bender requires a mechanical representation. The definition of master seems pretty fluid in the show.

4. Level Gaining Mechanic

This issue is somewhat minor, and I’m really only addressing it because I’ve been mentioned by name. I think it’s important to remember that Avatar is a TV show and the creators don’t take the needs or limits of a game system into account when writing the episodes. Sure, it seems ridiculous that Sokka gains 3 levels of Martial Artist in one afternoon, but that’s because, in the show, he’s not actually gaining levels. He’s just learning new techniques, which we then represent in the game system by gaining levels. The iconic character builds we’ve done for the website are just to illustrate how the system works and can be used to represent the characters from the show.

Also note that the iconic character builds were arbitrarily built to level 20 to ensure parity with each other. The general assumption has been that the main characters are close to level 20, but we could be wrong.

Finally, to be perfectly clear, I don’t think anyone can gain 3 levels in one day. I’m not offended or anything, I just want to be clear.

5. Burning Rush and Firebender Flight

The re-tooling of Burning Rush is interesting, but I think it will ultimately be too confusing. I’d just add a new high DC seed or Burning Rush application might be in order. Something along the lines of:

6. The affect of the commet

Given the dramatic effects from the series finale, I would support increasing the bonus to +20, but not likely higher than that. +20 is a substantial boost and would allow even 1st level benders to do some pretty crazy stuff.

I hope that’s everything. Thoughts?

Mephibosheth

I like the idea of sandbending being earthbending at -5 with the feat which removes the penalty. I think that this really fits the show as well, as in Sozin's Comet Toph says that she has been practicing her sandbending, to great effect. While this may seem like entering into a prestige class, the fact that she gains mastery over it in such a short period of time and with little enough effort that there was no training montage, it seems that it would most likely be a feat, and at very most a three level prestige class.

I agree with the idea of cooperative bending for things such as mud and clouds. Maybe earth and fire for lava. Anything else has no real in-show precedent.

I like the idea of adding Firebender Flight to Burning Rush as a high-DC option.

As for the effect of the comet, I think that there is an easier option than giving a bonus to the skill rolls. Rather than giving a bonus that would turn a novice into a master, we could simply halve the DC of all firebender forms during the comet's flight. That way novices would be brought up to a higher level of power, and masters would be elevated to near godly levels. I think that is reflected in the show, with master firebenders standing on flying orbs of flame and mooks being able to burn a swath through the earth kingdom's shoreline.

felinoel

2008-07-22, 12:59 AM

I like the idea of sandbending being earthbending at -5 with the feat which removes the penalty. I think that this really fits the show as well, as in Sozin's Comet Toph says that she has been practicing her sandbending, to great effect. While this may seem like entering into a prestige class, the fact that she gains mastery over it in such a short period of time and with little enough effort that there was no training montage, it seems that it would most likely be a feat, and at very most a three level prestige class.

I agree with the idea of cooperative bending for things such as mud and clouds. Maybe earth and fire for lava. Anything else has no real in-show precedent.

I like the idea of adding Firebender Flight to Burning Rush as a high-DC option.

As for the effect of the comet, I think that there is an easier option than giving a bonus to the skill rolls. Rather than giving a bonus that would turn a novice into a master, we could simply halve the DC of all firebender forms during the comet's flight. That way novices would be brought up to a higher level of power, and masters would be elevated to near godly levels. I think that is reflected in the show, with master firebenders standing on flying orbs of flame and mooks being able to burn a swath through the earth kingdom's shoreline.
What about a full moon then?

AstralFire

2008-07-22, 02:02 AM

Issues with firebending:
- There is no listed range for Fire Blast that I saw.
- Lightning allows neither a reflex save nor requires an attack roll. Though I don't recall it being normally deflectable, it should be a Reflex for No Damage. Also, I recommend just increasing the dice rather than automatically empowering.
- Fire Blast is listed as ranged, rather than ranged touch.
- Should probably be more than a simple Unarmed Damage addition for fighting in melee (this is for all benders) as they all do it when they really want to hit someone hard. Pretty much high level benders in this system will never fight closer than 30 feet. Perhaps...

Up-Close and Personal (Bending)
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike or Weapon Focus, Knowledge (Bending) 7 ranks.
Benefit: When channeling a Bending Blast through a melee attack, add your wisdom modifier to your unarmed damage and your bending check.

Something like that, maybe. There's more than enough incentive to stay away, there's not much to get up close.

For the sake of variety in firebending, some suggestions:
Heat Wave (Template):
Base DC: +10
Though a fast defeat is the usual way of firebending, sometimes lingering damage can get the job done more efficiently.

Conflagrate: Targets who catch fire from these attacks have a harder time shaking them off; the Reflex Save DC to extinguish flames is changed to (10+½Bender Level+Wis Modifier) and the residual flames deal additional damage equal to the bender's Wisdom modifier. These flames do not stack on the same target, and the bender may only set them on fire once a round.

Sweltering Blasts: Even the most agile of opponents gets worn down under a firebender's assault if they don't know when to move, as the air itself begins to heat up. A target of your sweltering blast that doesn't move out of their square on their next turn must make a Fortitude Save or become fatigued, regardless if the attack actually hit or not.

(Conflagrate has no basis, but I think it is logical. Sweltering Blasts is vaguely based on Ozai in the finale.)

Focus Fire (Template):
Base DC: +5Economy of motion. Everything must fall as quickly as possible.

Attacks made with this seed are extremely precise and focused, reducing collateral damage to a minimum. The bender adds his Wisdom modifier to the form's attack roll or his deflect attack roll, but the opponent doesn't catch on fire from the attack. This form has no effect on any ability which does not allow an attack roll.
(Zuko uses something like this when he carefully shoots through weapons in a season 1 episode.)

A seed that makes the fires blindingly bright would also be logical and I'll take a (bad) crack at it in a second.

Darkkwalker

2008-07-22, 02:23 AM

I don't think 4e lends itself well to bending. at least as it is currently. bending wouldn't work well with the 4e skill mechanic. the powers/whatever they call them could work but it's still at will, per day, per encounter type stuff. the current system works beautifully imho. however it would be interesting to see the 4e stuff.

FelixZ

2008-07-22, 04:26 AM

Katasi

2008-07-22, 06:01 AM

AstralFire

2008-07-22, 08:25 AM

- Auto-empower does seem a bit much, added in with the damage per level (level 20=20d6=120x1.5=180 damage max)

Not too much, actually. Good feat selection and you can get your effective Bending for certain checks higher than the average bending roll table. By 20th level, Lightning does less damage than a full attack Firestorm that's added Blue Fire and Fire Kick seeds that you've Template Mastered along with Focused Bending on at least one of the involved seeds (4x9d8 damage). Its advantage for the canon setting is that it's undeflectable. I would keep damage about the same in effect, just simple make it 2xLeveld4, not Leveld6 then randomly empower. I can't think of a single other mechanic in the game where a base effect is empowered by default with no off switch. I would make it Reflex for None since you don't see people getting residual damage from Cold Fire, and it's actually stronger that way against people with improved evasion.

(incidentally, I meant that fire blasts are listed as ranged attacks, not RTAs, I can't imagine why they wouldn't be RTAs.)

- Adding elemental blast damage to unarmed attack?

If you mean what they currently have, my issue is why any bender would move into melee range to get AoO'd to add 1d3+½Str per melee attack rather than an RTA. If you're suggesting a solution, that would double damage output which is probably a bit much.

Overall though, seems like a great job. Anyone going to be running a game offsite?

I'm using a bender in a non-canon setting this or next week.

dman11235

2008-07-22, 08:37 AM

AstralFire

2008-07-22, 08:44 AM

After reading through 4E, I have decided to do very little with it. It's not vey well made, and is extremely lacking in versatility, something that this system needs to work right. So I will strongly suggest staying away from it.

Actually, 4E wouldn't be hard to do a bending system with at all. Most of the templates would become stances, and you'd replace bending checks with the more usual level-based effects. I was using the Book of Nine Swords to emulate firebending a while ago, and 4E shares much with that book. However, this specific system wouldn't work, no, and it's probably late in its life to start. In another year, after I have a grasp for 4E balance, I might try to begin a 4E version myself.

brevity

2008-07-22, 09:14 AM

I have just made this account briefly (hence the name), as I happened upon this forum/thread in my internet travels to state my belief on sand bending and lavabending.

Sandbending: Toph could only vaguely throw sand around for two reasons: she couldn't really see where she was throwing and she was focussing much of her attention and energy on the tower. I don't really know how d20 works, but I don't think it is a particularly separate discipline.

Lavabending: Avatar Roku clearly performs this feat whilst destroying his temple. It is not just removing an obstacle in its path. He moves his hand and we see a corresponding image of three thin columns of magma rising from the main body situated below. Clearly this is not natural and controlled by him. That is all.

Mephibosheth

2008-07-22, 10:02 AM

Well, Felinoel, one of the functions of your "Gravity bending" is covered under the airbender's Wind Shaping ability, in Hand of Air. And I quote.

Granted, that's on a pretty small scale, but still. Do we have any precedent for "heavy gravity" effect from the show?

I'm with Eighth_Seraph on this one. It seems like the things you're grouping under "gravity bending" are just applications of seeds like Wind Shaping and Levitate. I don't think we need a special name or ability to represent them.

Are we thinking of 4e yet because I have already started a waterbender and would like to post it for comments. I don't have any powers yet but have the class done.

A couple of people have tried, but nothing ever approached completion. I'm still wrestling with a number of different ideas for how to adapt our classes to the structure of 4e, but haven't really been able to solidify things. My problem with 4e so far is that classes only get 2 at-will abilities over their entire progression, whereas our benders get nothing but at-will abilities. We could use a completely different structure for our classes, but then all we'd be doing is re-balancing what we currently have and putting things in 4e language. So, I guess the final answer is "I don't know." Feel free to post your 4e waterbender, but try to find one of the 4e threads to post it in. They should be pretty easy to find.

As for the effect of the comet, I think that there is an easier option than giving a bonus to the skill rolls. Rather than giving a bonus that would turn a novice into a master, we could simply halve the DC of all firebender forms during the comet's flight. That way novices would be brought up to a higher level of power, and masters would be elevated to near godly levels. I think that is reflected in the show, with master firebenders standing on flying orbs of flame and mooks being able to burn a swath through the earth kingdom's shoreline.

Ultimately, isn't this essentially the same as giving a bonus to bending checks? Either way, bending seeds are easier to pull off and you can reach higher DC's. Ultimately, I think I'd rather use a bonus to bending checks, if only because that's how we've done it in the past and it makes it easier to use low DC seeds. Halving the DC is great for high DC seeds, but not as cool for low DC ones.

Issues with firebending:
- There is no listed range for Fire Blast that I saw.
- Lightning allows neither a reflex save nor requires an attack roll. Though I don't recall it being normally deflectable, it should be a Reflex for No Damage. Also, I recommend just increasing the dice rather than automatically empowering.
- Fire Blast is listed as ranged, rather than ranged touch.
- Should probably be more than a simple Unarmed Damage addition for fighting in melee (this is for all benders) as they all do it when they really want to hit someone hard. Pretty much high level benders in this system will never fight closer than 30 feet. Perhaps...

FelixZ addressed most of these issues pretty well. I just want to touch on a few things. First, I can't remember why we didn't notice that lightening has absolutely no save or attack roll. I think the consensus was to make it a ranged touch attack. Also, I'm definitely open to alternate methods of addressing its power. It is a full-round action though, so whatever we go with should be pretty intense. 2d4/level or even 2d6/level. I haven't had a chance to crunch the numbers though.

Second, Fire Blast is a ranged attack because all bending blasts (with the exception of the Air Blast, which has a different mechanic) are ranged attacks. There were balance concerns about allowing iterative touch attacks and the way firebending is portrayed in the show indicates (at least to me) that a normal ranged attack is necessary to hit, not just a touch attack. So, the reasons were consistancy, balance, and accurate representation of the show.

Third, I don't really have any major problems with your Up Close and Personal feat, though it seems like it would result in a firebender's Wisdom modifier being added to his bending check twice. I'd say it's worth it even if you removed the bonus to bending checks and left it just adding Wisdom to damage. Maybe add Wisdom to attack and damage? Either way, it looks like it would be useful to a specific type of bender, and I would probably support adding it to the list! We always need more feats.

Heat Wave (Template):
Base DC: +10

Though a fast defeat is the usual way of firebending, sometimes lingering damage can get the job done more efficiently.

Conflagrate: Targets who catch fire from these attacks have a harder time shaking them off; the Reflex Save DC to extinguish flames is changed to (10+½Bender Level+Wis Modifier) and the residual flames deal additional damage equal to the bender's Wisdom modifier. These flames do not stack on the same target, and the bender may only set them on fire once a round.

Sweltering Blasts: Even the most agile of opponents gets worn down under a firebender's assault if they don't know when to move, as the air itself begins to heat up. A target of your sweltering blast that doesn't move out of their square on their next turn must make a Fortitude Save or become fatigued, regardless if the attack actually hit or not.

(Conflagrate has no basis, but I think it is logical. Sweltering Blasts is vaguely based on Ozai in the finale.)

I'm torn on this one. On the one hand, I've repeatedly committed to a "canon only" stance. On the other hand, this seed is really cool and close enough to canon that I want to include it. I like it, and it does add some much-needed versitility to firebenders. Ultimately, I'm going to leave this one up to the community.

Focus Fire (Template):
Base DC: +5

Economy of motion. Everything must fall as quickly as possible.

Attacks made with this seed are extremely precise and focused, reducing collateral damage to a minimum. The bender adds his Wisdom modifier to the form's attack roll or his deflect attack roll, but the opponent doesn't catch on fire from the attack. This form has no effect on any ability which does not allow an attack roll.

An interesting tradeoff, but we already have a feat to represent Zuko's ability to damage weapons. Still, there seems to be a place for this seed. What says the community?

I have just made this account briefly (hence the name), as I happened upon this forum/thread in my internet travels to state my belief on sand bending and lavabending.

Sandbending: Toph could only vaguely throw sand around for two reasons: she couldn't really see where she was throwing and she was focussing much of her attention and energy on the tower. I don't really know how d20 works, but I don't think it is a particularly separate discipline.

Welcome to Giantitp! I hope you enjoy your stay :smallwink:.

I think the hangup for everyone has been the discussion of sandbending outside the show itself, on the wikipedia pages and the Nick website. It mentions how sandbending is similar to waterbending in some of its motions and philosophies. Plus, sandbenders just look so cool, people want a separate set of abilities to be able to play a sandbender who's mechanically different from a normal earthbender. Plus, there are a few unique abilities we know of, like the miniature sandstorms they use to propel their sand sailors.

Lavabending: Avatar Roku clearly performs this feat whilst destroying his temple. It is not just removing an obstacle in its path. He moves his hand and we see a corresponding image of three thin columns of magma rising from the main body situated below. Clearly this is not natural and controlled by him. That is all.

That's true. I'd forgotten about that. Looks like solid evidence to me for putting lavabending on the firebender list. What says the community?

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-22, 10:53 AM

That's true. I'd forgotten about that. Looks like solid evidence to me for putting lavabending on the firebender list. What says the community? Er. Roku was the Avatar, dude. He could have been earthbending easily enough. That being said, the Nickelodeon website does explicitly say that lavabending goes under firebending, so I have absolutely no problem adding it to the firebender list.

I really do like the Heat Wave seed, but I have a question. Did we ever define when, if ever, a firebending form catches an opponent on fire, and how to handle it? I mean, are we going to have characters making DC 15 Reflex saves after every Fire Blast? Or is the the Heat Wave template that makes the fire catch? I'll quote the SRD.
Catching On Fire

Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.)

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.
I like the idea a whole lot, but we need to more clearly define the "catching on fire" mechanics under the bending system before we can implement it well.

As for Up-Close and Personal, the main problem we have is that only the firebender can channel his blast through an unarmed strike, so the feat can only be taken by firebenders. And seriously, I think a better feat would be something along the lines of...

[Feat Name] (I like "Up-Close and Personal" as a name)
Prerequisites: Air Blast, Water Blast, Earth Blast OR Fire Blast class ability; Base Attack Bonus +3
Benefit: You gain damage progression on your unarmed strike as a monk of a light fighting style (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3914480#post3914480), modifier by your level in a bending class. Earthbenders instead get damage progression as a monk of a balanced fighting style.
Special: If you take levels in a monk fighting style of the same type granted by this feat, your levels in monk and your bending class stack for the purpose of unarmed damage progression,

AstralFire

2008-07-22, 01:11 PM

Okay, I apologize for any flubs. I'm a major pyromaniac so most of what I'm addressing is Firebenders, and I've only skipped over what the other benders can do in a cursory manner. I glanced at Airbenders and noticed they were ranged touch, so I thought it was an omission from Firebenders. Likewise, I didn't realize only Fire could deal blast damage with a melee strike.

There's a discrepancy in Skill Points per level between the website and the thread that I noticed.

Regarding Lightning: I vote for 2d4 damage per level (almost identical to the current version) but make it so that it either cannot be deflected or is deflected at a large penalty. We see people dodge Lightning more often than we do attempt to stop it.

Regarding Up-Close and Personal: I like Eighth Seraph's version, it's more elegant than mine. That is enough additional damage that I think a desperate bender (or a more melee-oriented one) would fight up-close voluntarily.

Regarding catching fire: I would take the stance that anyone who gets hit by a fire attack roll or doesn't make a reflex save is automatically on fire for that round. You can only catch on fire once per round.

So, making some modifications to earlier suggestions:

Intensity
Base DC: 15
Intensify: Oftentimes, from a firebender’s point of view, a fire is simply not hot enough. By focusing on an already existing source of fire as a standard action, a firebender can increase the damage it deals by 1d6, plus an additional 1d6 for every 4 points by which the Firebending check exceeds the DC, up to the firebender’s Blast damage.

Quench: A little-used form among most firebenders, a firebender can use or ready a standard action to negate a single Fire Blast passing within 10 feet of him. Quenching blasts further away than 10 feet is possible, but the Firebending DC increases by +2 for every 5 feet further away the blast is. The firebender may also attempt to quench standing flames (such as from lingering fire damage) in this manner. Any fire that is still under the direct control of another bender is contested, and is thus an ineligible target of this seed.

The Firebender may also Quench a single source of fire per round as an Immediate Action; this increases the Firebending DC by 20.

^ I didn't really understand how this was a template, so I changed it from one. Quench is pretty fully an independent usage. Pretty much the only thing Intensify could combo with was Playing with Fire from the wording. I added some usage, which prevents a ready firebender from catching on fire and allows them to protect their friends from firebenders as well.

Lingering Flames (Template):
Base DC: +15
Though a fast defeat is the usual way of firebending, sometimes lingering damage can get the job done more efficiently.

Conflagrate: Targets who catch fire from these attacks have a harder time shaking them off; the Reflex Save DC to extinguish flames is changed to (10+½Bender Level+Wis Modifier) and the residual flames deal Fire Blast damage. These qualities replace (do not stack with) the standard effect of Catching on Fire for this attack.

Heat Wave: Even the most agile of opponents gets worn down under a firebender's assault if they don't know when to move, as the air itself begins to heat up. A target of your Heat Wave that doesn't move out of their square on their next turn must make a Fortitude Save or become fatigued for the duration of the encounter, regardless if the attack actually hit or not.
Origin: Sozin's Comet, Ozai. (Speculative)

Pyrotechnics (Template):
Base DC: +10
The burning pride and desire of the firebender can stun and awe even the most hardened opponent.
Rainbow Flame: The bender's flame becomes exceptionally bright and may become unusually colored. (Player's option.) Opponents targeted by Pyrotechnic attacks are Dazzled, and if subject to a critical hit, must make a Reflex Save or become Blinded for 1d4 rounds.
Origin: The Firebending Masters. (Speculative)

Focused Fire (Template):
Base DC: +10
Economy of motion. Everything must fall as quickly as possible. To that end, you strike precisely with your hands.

Precision: Attacks made with this seed are extremely precise and focused, reducing collateral damage to a minimum. The bender adds his Wisdom modifier to the attack roll (as well as his Deflect Attack rolls for the round), but the opponent cannot catch on fire from the attack. The range of these techniques is limited to ¼ normal, or 10 ft+5 per every 4 Bender Levels. The damage dice used in the attack increase size by one step. Note that this template cannot be applied to any form that cannot be performed with the hands (such as by applying another template involving a body part) nor to any form that does not require an attack roll.
Origin: First Season Zuko.

- A note: Why is this only 10? Well, in most cases, Fire Kick adds more raw damage. As I mentioned earlier, it's pretty easy to add 3 dice with Fire Kick at high levels in addition to Blue Fire... and kicking adds more range. Blue Fire Kicks deal 9d8 damage per strike. Blue Focus Fire Blasts would deal 6d10 damage per strike but be more accurate, which is 7.5 damage less per attack (a little bit more than the average of 2d6). They're more accurate, but they also lose out on the chance for lingering fire damage, and again must be performed at closer range. Without this, there's no good reason for a high level firebender not to spend their entire time spinning on their head and kicking like they're auditioning for the part of Chun-Li in You Got Served: Street Fighter Style... from approximately 300 feet away.

That's cool, but we see more variety in attack than that.

Mephibosheth

2008-07-22, 01:17 PM

Er. Roku was the Avatar, dude. He could have been earthbending easily enough. That being said, the Nickelodeon website does explicitly say that lavabending goes under firebending, so I have absolutely no problem adding it to the firebender list.

Yeah...sorry about that. I guess I spaced on that for a moment in my joy at finally having new "evidence" on this issue. Now, all that remains is to determine what you can actually do with lavabending...

I really do like the Heat Wave seed, but I have a question. Did we ever define when, if ever, a firebending form catches an opponent on fire, and how to handle it? I mean, are we going to have characters making DC 15 Reflex saves after every Fire Blast? Or is the the Heat Wave template that makes the fire catch? I'll quote the SRD.
Catching On Fire

Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.)

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.
I like the idea a whole lot, but we need to more clearly define the "catching on fire" mechanics under the bending system before we can implement it well.

The website has all firebending abilities igniting combustible objects, but says nothing about creatures and characters. I would be fine with making this a function of the Heat Wave seed. It's a simple fix and won't necessarily make it so that characters are making Reflex saves every single round (though that's definitely possible).

As for Up-Close and Personal, the main problem we have is that only the firebender can channel his blast through an unarmed strike, so the feat can only be taken by firebenders. And seriously, I think a better feat would be something along the lines of...

[Feat Name] (I like "Up-Close and Personal" as a name)
Prerequisites: Air Blast, Water Blast, Earth Blast OR Fire Blast class ability; Base Attack Bonus +3
Benefit: You gain damage progression on your unarmed strike as a monk of a light fighting style (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3914480#post3914480), modifier by your level in a bending class. Earthbenders instead get damage progression as a monk of a balanced fighting style.
Special: If you take levels in a monk fighting style of the same type granted by this feat, your levels in monk and your bending class stack for the purpose of unarmed damage progression,

I think the point of the original feat was to be useful only to firebenders (correct me if I'm wrong, AstralFire). The idea was to represent the power that you see, for example, in The Southern Raiders when
Zuko and Azula both punch each other and are tossed backwards in the resulting conflagration.

AstralFire

2008-07-22, 01:25 PM

My stuff so far is all thinking about Firebenders, yeah. :D But I didn't mean to limit it just to them for that one.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-22, 01:45 PM

Oh, Meph, I just noticed that the Chi Immobilization and Disrupt Bending feats on the website doesn't have a listed duration. Also, as long as I have your attention. The playtesting arena is back up, and I have a character awaiting a level 10 opponent.

Mephibosheth

2008-07-22, 01:49 PM

Wow, how did we not notice that? What do you think, a number of rounds equal to the character's Wisdom modifier? Rounds/level?

AstralFire

2008-07-22, 01:56 PM

Wow, how did we not notice that? What do you think, a number of rounds equal to the character's Wisdom modifier? Rounds/level?

I'd make it 3 rounds for Chi Immobilization. Rounds/level would be way too crippling and if it's based on Wis modifier... sucks for anyone who only qualifies for the minimum Wis. Chi Disruption could probably last for the encounter.

The wording for Chi Disruption should also note that Strength can never go below 1.

Any thoughts on my wall of text? >.>

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-22, 02:16 PM

Meh, I think rounds equal to modifier is fair. If you only got the minimum required Wis, then you'll reap the results. Eliminating the use of your opponent's arms for even two or three rounds is worth a feat, methinks.

Mephibosheth

2008-07-22, 02:39 PM

How 'bout a compromise. The penalties last for one round, plus a number of additional rounds equal to the character's Wisdom modifier. Then it's always at least 2 rounds, but it's not necessarily a static number.

I'll address the aforementioned "wall of text" later. My initial impressions are favorable, however.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-22, 02:52 PM

AstralFire

2008-07-22, 03:02 PM

I'll get started on the Wall of Text, then. Oh, and I approve of the compromise.

Lingering Flames gets a thumbs-up from me, though I think it requires a clause stating that any firebending form using the template automatically lights the opponent on fire, opposed by a Reflex save.

Pyrotechnics is an interesting idea, but I think it would be better off as a feat. I made an epic seed called Dragonfire on the non-canon thread which gave effects for each color of fire, if you want to check it out. The only problem is that blasts can't score critical hits, so the blinding is out, unless you want to make it "if the attack roll lands on a natural 20..."

Oh, I didn't realize. I can definitely see this being a feat, now that I think about it more.

Pyrotechnics [Bending]
The burning pride and desire of the firebender can stun and awe even the most hardened opponent.
Prerequisites: Fire Blast 2d6
Benefit: The bender's flames become exceptionally bright and may become unusually colored. Any opponent he deals fire damage to becomes dazzled for the next round. If the bender rolls a natural 20 on his Fire Blast attack roll, the target must make a Reflex Save or become Blinded for 1d4 rounds.

The reason that Intensity was a template was due to the primary function (to intensify the flames of a form). I'm okay with the allowing Quench to put out a fire as an immediate action, but it needs to be capped. Once per round is kind of weak, but the function seems too contrived otherwise.

Capped how? You can only make one immediate or swift action a round as it is, right?

Hmm, you may want to clear that up then. I read Intensify as only working with fire that was already present, so it couldn't be combined with Fire Blast and stuff. I can see it improving Wall of Fire, but only the round after.

Focused Fire is a completely different direction than we usually take seeds, and if following the pattern we've established with this project, seems more appropriate as a feat. Having said that, I think it would be a completely worthwhile feat to take, without being broken. It feels like something out of Complete Bender, y'know?

I was trying to make a hand-based seed that could compete with Fire Kicks for usefulness - right now, there's no good reason not to be kicking everything you can since it not only increases your damage with your skill, but increases the range at which you can fight dramatically. I haven't really done much number crunching with the other benders, but I know compared to standard D&D classes the Fire Kick damage isn't even that awesome (though it's not bad) - it's just that nothing competes with it. The Breath template is for escaping or surprising someone. We still see plenty of hand-based firebending in the finale and the episodes leading up to it, and that should get some mechanical representation.

In what way does it break the pattern? -confused, a bit-

Mephibosheth

2008-07-22, 03:56 PM

OK, hopefully I've been following this discussion correctly.

Intensity:

As written now, the seed doesn't affect instantaneous firebending abilities like Fire Blast. It would only affect already-existing fire and fire from abilities like Wall of Fire.

I don't know if I like the ability to use Quench as an immediate action (or as a readied action like in the current version). If you could, it'd be basically the same as Deflect Attack, except you never fail and you can only use it once. It just seems redundant to me. I think the original idea was to allow firebenders to do things like this (http://dvdscreenshots.avatarspiritmedia.net/116/649.jpg), where Zhao walked through Jeong Jeong's wall of fire. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but using it as an immediate action (or even as a readied action) just seems redundant. I would support a re-write of Quench to function like the opposite of Intensify.

Lingering Flames:

If I'm reading everything correctly, we're looking at a final draft of Lingering Flames that looks like this:

Lingering Flames (Template):
Base DC: +15
[spoiler]Though a fast defeat is the usual way of firebending, sometimes lingering damage can get the job done more efficiently.
Conflagrate: If a firebender successfully affects a target with a firebending attack (either by a successful attack roll or a failed save), the target must make a Reflex Save or catch on fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#catchingOnFire). Additionally, the save DC to extinguish the fire increases to 10 plus half the firebender's class level plus the firebender's Wisdom modifier.
Heat Wave: Even the most agile of opponents gets worn down under a firebender's assault if they don't know when to move, as the air itself begins to heat up. A target of your Heat Wave that doesn't move out of their square on their next turn must make a Fortitude save or become fatigued for the duration of the encounter, regardless if the attack actually hit or not.

Note I reduced the damage from catching on fire as a result of Conflagrate, but I still think it's a viable seed, especially when combined with Intensity.

Pyrotechnics:

I'm fine with it as either a seed or a feat. Note that blasts can score critical hits, just like any other ranged attack, so the blinding could be on any critical hit (useful for those benders that invest in Improved Critical).

Focused Fire:

Again, we need to codify exactly how an opponent can catch on fire. The website stipulates that all combustible objects can be set on fire by all firebending moves (like the ships that go down in flames in The Deserter) but is silent on how creatures are affected. I think Eighth_Seraph and I are operating on the assumption that Lingering Fire allows you to catch an opponent on fire, but other firebending seeds do not. I think this ruling avoids a lot of unnecessary rolling and is in keeping with the standard set by the SRD.

Given this assumption, Focused Fire gives you a lot of benefits for a low skill DC and no cost. Additionally, the Sundering Blast feat was created to represent the exact moment you're talking about, AstralFire. Finally, given the trade-off between using Firestorm (not possible with Fire Kick) and gaining the bonus to damage, firebenders have incentives to use both hands and feet.

I hope I've addressed everything and that I'm not completely off base.

Mephibosheth

AstralFire

2008-07-22, 04:23 PM

Well, I appreciate being taken seriously, coming into this project so late.

Regarding Intensify: I think that removing the ability to quench Fire Blasts entirely is a good idea, since it's just another variation on Deflect Attack. I support keeping it around to handle unattended fires. Things like Wall of Fire should really be covered by Contested Bending, no?

Regarding Pyrotechnics: I think it's better as a seed, and I feel it is potentially too strong as a feat, as the feat form makes you lose nothing to hurt their Attack Rolls and potentially their entire ability to fight. Benders aren't feat starved, just a little feat hungry at low level, so it's not a huge loss.

Regarding Firestorm: You... can't use Fire Kick with Firestorm? The way Eighth and I were talking earlier, I'm not too surprised that my reading of how things worked was unintentional, but:

- That should probably be clarified. My understanding was that since Fire Kick doesn't have a time associated with its manifestation, when applied to Fire Blast it functioned exactly as Fire Blast did in all respects, including allowing it to work with Firestorm.
- That's still not a good reason to use Fists. Assuming Rapid Shot:

KICKS - 4x9d8 damage a round if all three attacks hit (for an average of 162)
FISTS - 5x6d8 damage a round if all four attacks hit (for an average of 135, which is pretty inferior)
LIGHTNING: 40d6 damage a round if Lightning and Blue Fire can be combined (for an average of 140). There's still no reason to use your fists unless you -really- need to hit four different distant people with a weak attack in a round. The kick gives you superior range and would let you set up lingering flames.
FOCUS FIRE - Deals 4x6d10 damage (132) with a, say, +6 modifier on the attack roll. That's actually slightly farther behind kick damage, but I would be willing to take an average loss of 30 damage on an easy target for a much easier time striking a foe.

(To get that much damage with kicks:
Template Mastery (Fire Kick)
Template Mastery (Blue Fire)
Wis 22
Bending during the daytime or masterwork item
Focused Bending (Fire Blast)
Base DC is 25

You're making an average DC of 50, and you need to make 55 to deal 9d8; if not, you'll deal 8d8, which at 144 is still higher, with a longer range to safely do it from. You'll roll every bending check since your minimum check is 41 and 40 is all you need to make it 8d8, with a strong chance of 9d8. And here's the (heh) kicker, you're doing all of this too far away for any other bender to even touch you.

I think Firestorm should eventually remove its penalty and shift to a bonus or follow the full Greater Flurry progression. Full Greater Flurry is probably too much, but compared to kicking you have worse accuracy, worse range, and worse damage. That's too much.

yosho

2008-07-22, 04:53 PM

Hum, Astralfire you seem to think like me. I was planning to post those same seeds. Mine were a little different but what ever.

As were on the subject of intensify I would like to recommend one more subability for it.
Intensify
Ray: The firebender focuses her fire blast into a precise ray of fire. The firebender makes a fire blast attack as a ranged touch attack and can apply precision damage too it as well. This attack bypasses fire resistance.

Catching Fire: I believe that the fire blast should not automatically set opponents on fire. The seed should be the only way to do that unless they are dripping in oil or something. I agree with Mephibosheth's version except that damage should be upped to 1d6 + wis + 1d6 per 15 above the dc.

Pyrotechnics: It has enouph worth that it should be a seed and not a feat. It appears like a viable technique.

Pyrotechnics (Template)
By learning to change the color and brightness of her flame the firebender can aw and stop her opponents.
Color (+15): Your flames dance in bright dazzling colors. Anyone damaged by fire with the color template must make a will save or suffer from dazzled for one turn. For every 5 by which you beat the DC you may either increase the effects one step or increase the duration by one turn. Dazzled->fascinated->dazed->confused.
Light(+10): The firebenders fire becomes incredibly bright. Anyone damaged by this template must make a fortitude save or become blinded for the benders wis modifier number of rounds. This template lowers the damage done by fire by -1d6.

Focused Fire:I agree that focused fire should be a feat.

Lightning: I recommend staying with units in the d6s since people tend to have more of those at the table than d4s. The seed should state its not able to be deflected, and requires a ranged touch attack.

Well I think that's everything for now. Hope I didn't miss anything.

Oh, since were throwing some new seed out why don't I add one of my own to the queuing list.

Searing Flame (Template)
Base DC: +20
With precise control of their element firebenders can harm and disable enemies without burning them to a crisp.
Sear: By controlling the heat and pressure of fire, the firebender burns the targets skin as to make them more vulnerable to flame. Those damaged by the fire lose 1 point of fire resistance as the fire softens the skin. Targets without fire resistance instead take 1 extra point of fire damage any time they take fire damage. However this maneuver makes the fire less dangerous, thus base damage is reduced by -1 per die. By every 10 that the the DC is beat add 1 to the loss of resistance or vulnerability.
Burning Feet: By burning a persons feet they can no longer move freely. Reduce the damage of the attack by half. Every target must make a reflex save to avoid the effects. Those that fail the save have trouble walking with burnt feet and must make a reflex at the beginning of their turn or fall prone. To stand from prone requires a reflex save as well.
Burning Hands: Sometimes an enemy simply needs to be disarmed, and for that purpose firebenders have made this form. By attacking the opponents hands with fire they must succeed at a fortitude save or be burned. Those burned must make an additional fortitude save or drop everything they hold in their hands. This save must be made every round at the beginning of their turn. Drawing or picking up an object also requires a save.
Note: To be subject to these effects the target must take at least 1 point of fire damage. These effects end after one minute or until healed.

So what do you think?

AstralFire

2008-07-22, 06:01 PM

Comparing some stuff -

Using my previous DC comparison for Air Benders instead of Fire, when Rapid Shotting, Airbenders deal an average of 138 damage as Ranged Touch (rather than Ranged) with Air Scythe at level 20. When using Air Burst, this drops down to 110 damage (compare to Fire Burst Kick capping out at around 7d6, or 24.5 average damage). (Air Burst Scythe might be limited to only one attack rather than all iterative attacks, in which case it STILL wins, albeit slightly, at 27.5).

Earthbenders using Firebending Study and Rapid Shot can build up 117.5 if all attacks hit (easy for them because they gain both Strength to Attack AND Strength to Damage)

Waterbenders can build up similar numbers to Earth using Firebending Study and Rapid Shot (although they are less likely to hit than Earth unless they take the Zen Archery feat).

Compare to my previous numbers on Firebenders, and they're barely ahead of Earth and Water, and actually -behind- Air as far as Firestorm goes. Using Fire Kicks, they're a little ahead, but Air is better at swatting multiple targets.

This is all kinds of weird.

Fire's only trick is damage and it can't even really properly pull ahead of the other disciplines at that. Blue Fire Lightning will require overbending from anyone in the canon setting pre-epic and deals a measly 140-ish damage in its current or proposed states, and Fire is the weakest defensively by far of the disciplines.

I propose Blue Fire be made a higher feat or even a Prestige Class - the DC is really high and restrictive right now, and really Azula keeps it up more times than not. It's practically a permanent modification. It's important to note that she is the only firebender who uses it, so it's a character specific on-switch, not a late skill to be mastered by all Firebenders.

Currently the only fire AoE I would bother using is Fire Burst or Fire Wall, with the Explosion Template (and as you can guess, that's for its useful battlefield control ability moreso than damage.) Flamethrower is probably the world's best way to destroy forest, but a Fire Kick Fire Sweep (or even just a Fire Sweep) is better for most practical purposes, and Rapid Shot Firestorm Fire Blasts is best unless you really need to nuke more than five targets a round that will die to 8d6 damage but not 9d8.

Some radical thoughts that I suggest:
[SCRUBBING MOST OF THIS SO I CAN THINK COHERENTLY, WILL POST MORE LATER]
- Electricity: Ranged Attack made at a -5 penalty, not deflectable, deals 3d4 Con damage or strikes Wound Points, Fatigues (then Exhausts) the target. Cannot critical.

Sorry; I realize I'm pretty arrogantly disregarding a lot of work that you guys have already done, but when I compare these guys to what a Barbarian or Fighter can do at 20, they feel really limited.

I'd elaborate more and hammer out charts but I'm already proposing something radically different and I don't know how well it'll be received.

String

2008-07-22, 06:53 PM

Whew.:smallbiggrin:

I've been catching up on the various threads for the past several days (I started saturday, after sozins comet came out). First off:

WOW. Just...WOW. Thanks so much for this amazing system. It's notperfect (but then again, neither is DnD) but it is amazing. I love it, I ran a quick fight of two Earthbender 20's (I'm not horribly imaginative when playing PnP), love it even more.

My two cents on a few things:

I like Yosho's versions of Searing Flame and Pyrotechnics, although the Sear application sounds a tad confusing, even if I understand it. Maybe some clearer language?

I support all the desiscions that have been made, as far as I can remember.

And a Question or two: Would this thread be the place to post Affiliations( Order of the White Lotus, Earth Kingdom, Fire Nation, among others)? I really enjoy making affiliations, and they would be good to help with fluff.

I see that there are no Prestige classes for the Firebenders or Airbenders. granted, airbenders dont have enough screen time (besides aang who has his whole avatar thing going on) to justify any canon prestige class...but perhaps a Air Nomad Monk prestige class? Or a Naval Officer class for Firebenders? And of course, prestige classes for non-benders, but that isnt for this thread

AstralFire

2008-07-22, 09:09 PM

I've been sitting here altering my posts for like, 3 hours now and I'm just gonna throw in the towel for the night and wait for other opinions.

Problems:
- I just do not, at this moment in time, see a point to using any AoE attacks under this system as far as damage goes. They mostly seem pretty thoroughly useless compared to just bending at multiple targets in one round.
- Fire's damage is decent (not great), but it can't do anything else and it takes hits like a wet paper bag. That needs to be fixed.
- The really low firebending damage is an easy fix for either the VP/WP (which is recommended for this setting) or the HP systems, but I can't come up with something that works well for both. You may wish to just officially declare this a VP system since these guys hit like wet noodles in an HP system. A Barbarian walking around with 260 HP and some DR armor is not going to get remotely hindered by anything except a firebender, who he'll just charge at and cut in half because it has crap for AC and HP.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-22, 09:10 PM

You, my good sir String, are a godsend. No, this is not the place to post affiliations, but we do have a thread set up for it. If you go to the first page of this thread, there will be a link to the main hub, where we post all things directly in relation to the Avatar setting. You can post any affiliations or ideas for them you have on there for critique and admiration.

I like the concept of Searing Flame, though I'm not sure if I'd put Burning Feet/Hands under the seed. I'll accept it, but it seems to fall more into feat territory. Hrm. I'm saying that a lot today, aren't I?

I also like the new write-up of Pyrotechnics, though I would stop short of allowing the seed to make a target confused. No matter how pretty those colors are, I'm not going to attack my party members on your behalf.

The proposed Ray clause of Intensify is far too powerful, what with it making the blast a touch attack AND allowing precision damage AND bypassing fire resistance. I would allow it to bypass resistance, but that's enough for a secondary function, I think.

The really low firebending damage is an easy fix for either the VP/WP (which is recommended for this setting) or the HP systems, but I can't come up with something that works well for both. You may wish to just officially declare this a VP system since these guys hit like wet noodles in an HP system. A Barbarian walking around with 260 HP and some DR armor is not going to get remotely hindered by anything except a firebender, who he'll just charge at and cut in half because it has crap for AC and HP.
Hrm. I'd want to playtest that. In a one-on-one fight? My money's on the barbarian, hands down. In a party situation? I want to see. Good thing the playtesting thread's back up.

I see your point though, Astral. I want to see for myself where exactly they fall short, though, and playtesting makes problems and possible solutions much easier to pinpoint; for me, at least.

Mephibosheth

2008-07-23, 09:35 AM

I apologize to everyone who posted after AstralFire. I'm not going to address your suggestions and comments just yet. The issues AstralFire brings up seem to me to be far more pressing.

Comparing some stuff -

Using my previous DC comparison for Air Benders instead of Fire, when Rapid Shotting, Airbenders deal an average of 138 damage as Ranged Touch (rather than Ranged) with Air Scythe at level 20. When using Air Burst, this drops down to 110 damage (compare to Fire Burst Kick capping out at around 7d6, or 24.5 average damage). (Air Burst Scythe might be limited to only one attack rather than all iterative attacks, in which case it STILL wins, albeit slightly, at 27.5).

This shouldn't be the case, and I'm grateful that you said something. Airbenders were difficult to address in this area because, while they have the potential to deal substantial damage and their destructive capabilities have been show a number of times in the show, their worldview makes them refrain from using these abilities. However, it's almost impossible to represent this restraint and committment to non-violence mechanically, and we have to rely on players to appropriately play their airbending characters.

That said (and it could probably be stressed more in the class write-ups), I think Air Scythe needs to be dialed back. I would support the following changes:
basing damage on class level rather than bending check, making it 1d6 per 4 Airbender levels
removing the clause about using Air Scythe at the rate of an airbender's quarterstaff attacks. Like Air Blast, it should be at the BAB rate, with the possibility of Rapid Shot or Firebending Study.
in order to make up for the reduced damage, allowing Air Scythe to bypass 10 points of hardness. It's used for destroying objects most frequently anyway.
I think that these changes will make the seed less powerful. Airbenders should not be dealing massive damage, at least not directly.

Earthbenders using Firebending Study and Rapid Shot can build up 117.5 if all attacks hit (easy for them because they gain both Strength to Attack AND Strength to Damage)

I'd be OK with removing Strength to damage. That seems like too much reliance on Strength.

Waterbenders can build up similar numbers to Earth using Firebending Study and Rapid Shot (although they are less likely to hit than Earth unless they take the Zen Archery feat).

We've had a lot of concerns about Ice Shards and waterbending damage, but I think most of them have been addressed. I think I'm OK with waterbenders and earthbenders being able to deal damage of this magnitude, especially at level 20.

Compare to my previous numbers on Firebenders, and they're barely ahead of Earth and Water, and actually -behind- Air as far as Firestorm goes. Using Fire Kicks, they're a little ahead, but Air is better at swatting multiple targets.

This is all kinds of weird.

Fire's only trick is damage and it can't even really properly pull ahead of the other disciplines at that. Blue Fire Lightning will require overbending from anyone in the canon setting pre-epic and deals a measly 140-ish damage in its current or proposed states, and Fire is the weakest defensively by far of the disciplines.

You're right. Firebenders are supposed to be the ones who can pack the biggest offensive punch in terms of direct damage, and it seems like they need some help in that regard.

I propose Blue Fire be made a higher feat or even a Prestige Class - the DC is really high and restrictive right now, and really Azula keeps it up more times than not. It's practically a permanent modification. It's important to note that she is the only firebender who uses it, so it's a character specific on-switch, not a late skill to be mastered by all Firebenders.

I actually kind of like this idea, especially now that we have a few new firebending seeds and they won't loose out so much from losing Blue Fire. We struggled for a while with how to represent Blue Fire for the very reasons you mention (only Azula, a "firebending prodigy" using it), and a feat might be better.

Currently the only fire AoE I would bother using is Fire Burst or Fire Wall, with the Explosion Template (and as you can guess, that's for its useful battlefield control ability moreso than damage.) Flamethrower is probably the world's best way to destroy forest, but a Fire Kick Fire Sweep (or even just a Fire Sweep) is better for most practical purposes, and Rapid Shot Firestorm Fire Blasts is best unless you really need to nuke more than five targets a round that will die to 8d6 damage but not 9d8.

I think this is as it should be. You see firebenders using targeted blasts far more frequently than AoE seeds. Even in normal D&D, AoE spells tend to be good for taking out mooks and little else. The AoE seeds give firebenders some versitility and a few surprises (enemies will learn quickly not to group too close together), but don't necessarily need to be on parity with more powerful targeted moves.

Some radical thoughts that I suggest:
[SCRUBBING MOST OF THIS SO I CAN THINK COHERENTLY, WILL POST MORE LATER]
- Electricity: Ranged Attack made at a -5 penalty, not deflectable, deals 3d4 Con damage or strikes Wound Points, Fatigues (then Exhausts) the target. Cannot critical.

Sorry; I realize I'm pretty arrogantly disregarding a lot of work that you guys have already done, but when I compare these guys to what a Barbarian or Fighter can do at 20, they feel really limited.

An interesting suggestion. My only concern is that we've seen lightening damage objects and buildings in the show (IIRC), meaning direct damage. I like it being a ranged touch attack, carrying a hefty penalty to deflection (I seem to remember Aang blocking lightening with a huge rock in the finale, but I could be mistaken), and fatiguing the target. What if we just made it 2d6 damage per level instead of 2d4? Seems powerful (max 240, average 140 damage) but not overwhelming.

Another suggestion you made which I like is to improve the Firestorm ability like a monk's Flurry of Blows. When I first read your post and wracked my brains for ways to make firebenders more powerful, this was the first thing that popped into my head. It provides a bump in power to hand-based firebending, increases the overall power of the discipline, and fits with the firebender philosophy like a glove. What says the playground?

Mephibosheth

ErrantX

2008-07-23, 09:41 AM

I support the increase in power to Firestorm, by the numbers Astralfire's got some good points.

As far as nerfing down Air Scythe, I'm not really sure about basing the effect's damage on Airbender level, I don't recall any of the other powers having such a limitation. That being said, perhaps reducing it a d4 instead a d6 and then using your other changes?

-X

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-23, 10:34 AM

I'm on board with the new Firestorm, but I have a question. When making the monk variant for the system, I also did a slight revamp on Flurry of Blows. With Greater Flurry at level 11, instead of getting two extra attacks at your highest BAB, you get one extra attack at your highest BAB, and another extra at your next-highest BAB (similar to TWF). If you're thinking of the PHB Flurry, make sure that you explicitly explain it in the ability's description, rather than saying "As the monk ability."

Also, I would much prefer if Air Scythe continued to be based upon the Airbending check. The reason, as usual, is overbending. Air Scythe just screams of potential for overbending, when a suitably angry airbender completely loses it and tears a prison wall/door/warden to shreds.

Of course, we could go with basing Air Scythe on level and simply add in a new function for overbending that increases effective bender level. This leads me to think of other problems with overbending, particularly with sustained effects like Run as the Wind and Manipulate in situations where you're calming the waves of a heavy storm. But I'll wait to have this conversation until the firebender and Air Scythe are resolved.

Katasi

2008-07-23, 11:23 AM

I apologize to everyone who posted after AstralFire. I'm not going to address your suggestions and comments just yet. The issues AstralFire brings up seem to me to be far more pressing.

This shouldn't be the case, and I'm grateful that you said something. Airbenders were difficult to address in this area because, while they have the potential to deal substantial damage and their destructive capabilities have been show a number of times in the show, their worldview makes them refrain from using these abilities. However, it's almost impossible to represent this restraint and committment to non-violence mechanically, and we have to rely on players to appropriately play their airbending characters.

That said (and it could probably be stressed more in the class write-ups), I think Air Scythe needs to be dialed back. I would support the following changes:
basing damage on class level rather than bending check, making it 1d6 per 4 Airbender levels
removing the clause about using Air Scythe at the rate of an airbender's quarterstaff attacks. Like Air Blast, it should be at the BAB rate, with the possibility of Rapid Shot or Firebending Study.
in order to make up for the reduced damage, allowing Air Scythe to bypass 10 points of hardness. It's used for destroying objects most frequently anyway.
I think that these changes will make the seed less powerful. Airbenders should not be dealing massive damage, at least not directly.

I have to agree with Eighth and Errant that doing it be level doesn't seem the best. But I agree with Errant that reducing it to d4s could work well.

Blue Fire[/I]. We struggled for a while with how to represent Blue Fire for the very reasons you mention (only Azula, a "firebending prodigy" using it), and a feat might be better.

I think this is as it should be. You see firebenders using targeted blasts far more frequently than AoE seeds. Even in normal D&D, AoE spells tend to be good for taking out mooks and little else. The AoE seeds give firebenders some versitility and a few surprises (enemies will learn quickly not to group too close together), but don't necessarily need to be on parity with more powerful targeted moves.

An interesting suggestion. My only concern is that we've seen lightening damage objects and buildings in the show (IIRC), meaning direct damage. I like it being a ranged touch attack, carrying a hefty penalty to deflection (I seem to remember Aang blocking lightening with a huge rock in the finale, but I could be mistaken), and fatiguing the target. What if we just made it 2d6 damage per level instead of 2d4? Seems powerful (max 240, average 140 damage) but not overwhelming.

Another suggestion you made which I like is to improve the Firestorm ability like a monk's Flurry of Blows. When I first read your post and wracked my brains for ways to make firebenders more powerful, this was the first thing that popped into my head. It provides a bump in power to hand-based firebending, increases the overall power of the discipline, and fits with the firebender philosophy like a glove. What says the playground?

Mephibosheth

The upping lightning to 2d6 seems great, and giving firestorm flurry of blows seems like a good way to solve that problem. Though for simplicity I'd use the same flurry of blows as the redone monks for this system.

AstralFire

2008-07-23, 12:01 PM

Actually, when I did my Air Scythe calculations, I didn't even remember to include any extra attacks they get from the Quarterstaff. So it would probably need to be toned down further.

I think a more adequate way to solve the issue of Airbenders is to make a set of seeds that can do a lot of damage, somehow, when paired together. It would require a significant investment in seeds and thus the average airbender would not be able to perform it.

Which brings me to another point - I think action points might be a good fit for this system. Not for a bonus to d20 rolls, as we already have overbending, but Emulate Feat: New Seed would be a good fit with the above. But I'm not sure, any variant rule has to be added in... slowly, and I'm not super familiar with airbenders.

Since last night with the help of my girlfriend, I've been working on overhauling the entire firebender class. When we thought about it, we didn't really see firebenders going all Vegeta-machine-gun on people much, the multiple blows really fast thing isn't really a trademark of bending. The current overhaul I'm designing requires a pretty radical alteration of how bending blasts and deflection works (at its core, the idea that you do not gain extra blasts for iterative attacks) and I'm not sure how well received it'll be. At the least, though, I think some ideas from it might be useful to this project. The firebender is the bender most dependent on the multiple blows aspect, and I think if I work out the kinks in that system, a retrofit to the other benders is easy - IF. I'm currently deadstalled on a few aspects.

So far I've spent about eight hours on this monstrosity and I'm not sure when it'll be done, though I'm aiming for today.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-23, 12:26 PM

AstralFire

2008-07-23, 12:41 PM

Hoo boy. You'll want to tell us the basic idea behind this overhaul of yours before you go any further. One way or another, a whole bunch of hours' worth of designing is going to go down the drain, though not necessarily yours.

In keeping with the very real possibility that this doesn't get used, I didn't want to clutter up this thread any more. Here's the unpolished turd I've been producing (it's not done):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4581068#post4581068

endoperez

2008-07-23, 01:02 PM

I'm afraid I'm really out of touch with the whole mechanics part of this discussion, but I'd like to point out that damage isn't the only way to be agressive. Firebenders could use trip (Zuko in duels against Zhao and Azula), disarm (Zuko vs Aang, Kyoshi island), sunder (Zuko vs the archer-specilized rhino-rider in The Desert) or cause various status effects, which AstralFire suggested for lightning (fatigue in addition to damage).

As far as I understand, firebenders can trip, disarm or sunder as normal in melee range, or at range with Fire Whip. I don't know if they can use feats like Ranged Disarm or Ranged Pin with their Fire Blasts, but even if they could I doubt they could spare the feats for that. I don't know what they should get, if anything. Fighter bonus feats? DC ??? Fire blast to trip, deals half the normal damage if trip is successful? Just straight-out able to use the combat options with Fire Blast, and the improved feats available if you want to specialize?

Mephibosheth

2008-07-23, 01:15 PM

That's true, endoperez, but not really the point we're making. The show establishes clear differences of philosophy and capability between the bending disciplines.

Airbenders hold a philosophy of defense and non-violence, and airbending focuses on defense and evasion. In our system, airbenders get bonuses to their AC and a substantial number of powers aimed at increasing their mobility and forcing opponents away.

Waterbenders focus on balance and change philosophically, and waterbending is balanced and flowing, transforming an opponent's aggressive energy into a counter-attack and making their defense into a strong offense. In our system, waterbenders have abilities like Tentacle and Water Whip that can be either defensive or offensive.

Earthbenders are strong and stable, focusing on tradition and a strong foundation philosophically. Earthbending relies on strong stances and is balanced between defense and offense. Earthbenders have access to defensive techniques like Earth Wall as well as offensive techniques like Column and Immobilize.

Firebenders are passionate and aggressive, focusing their philosophy on energy, speed, and power. Firebending is almost entirely lacking in defensive techniques and is all about the power of a quick, devastating, overwhelming offense. Almost every firebending technique is about dealing damage.

It is in this context that we're concerned about a firebender's ability to deal damage. Absent these distinctions, it wouldn't really matter nearly as much, since every class can be used effectively and even firebenders don't need to rely on damage all the time. Look at Explosion or Fire Whip or the examples of firebending you bring up. However, the show establishes that firebenders should be better at dealing damage than any other benders.

At least, that's why I'm concerned about this issue.

Mephibosheth

endoperez

2008-07-23, 01:40 PM

Firebenders are passionate and aggressive, focusing their philosophy on energy, speed, and power. Firebending is almost entirely lacking in defensive techniques and is all about the power of a quick, devastating, overwhelming offense. Almost every firebending technique is about dealing damage.

However, the show establishes that firebenders should be better at dealing damage than any other benders.

Firebending is modeled after Northern Shaolin. I tried to find articles about it's methods (before that first post), but failed. My suggestions were inspired by my very limited understanding of its combat philosophy.

Take a straight punch. Ba Gua expert (airbender) wouldn't be where the hit lands and, optimally, would now be behind the opponent. Taiji expert would move a bit and turn a bit and push the arm away, unbalancing the opponent. Northern Shaolin expert might sweep the legs from under the opponent making a high punch. All are some kind of reserved actions or attacks of opportunity, but they can't really be modeled in D&D. My suggestion was based on that image of Northern Shaolin.

EDIT: It seems I managed to edit my edit away. :smallconfused: I'll try again, paraphrasing from this (http://wongkk.com/combat/flower.html):

"He moves in with a right thrust punch. I do not move away, but as his attack is coming I thrust out my left cup-fist at his jaw, my forward-moving arm brushing away the attack.
His attack was a bait; as soon as my cup-fist approaches him, he deftly changes his stance, thus avoiding my attack, and simultaneously in a smooth sweep, deflects my left hand and strikes my neck with his right palm."

Some kind of weird AoO combined with deflecting attacks, which doesn't really work in D&D. Perhaps bonus damage against someone whose attack you have successfully deflected?

AstralFire

2008-07-23, 02:16 PM

I've got a bunch of ideas floating in my head to correspond to that stuff. If that Combat Flair thingummy I'm working on in my stupid prototype works, for example, I was thinking one of the abilities for a Firebender would be to Attack of Opportunity with a bend against anyone who moves in your immediate area.

Also, random thought for Earthbenders and Waterbenders, modeling their golem after a limited selection of traits for Astral Constructs - yes/no?

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-23, 02:17 PM

Er, this would be great in a martial artist class (like this one) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71969), but we need to make sure that we put in this thread is directly related to the bending classes. I'm somewhat experienced in martial arts (ten years of Tae Kwon Do, with some dabbling in other arts), so I understand what the text is saying; and it's difficult to put into a firebending technique, to say the least. The idea behind the initial strike of the Flower Set (the 'bait' attack) as described in your link is to anticipate your opponent's punch and counter with your own punch on the same side before it connects, so that your extended arm deflects your opponent's punch without needing to use one hand to block and the other to attack.

The concept could be useful, yes, but it sounds more like a tactical feat than a firebender class ability. Try writing it up if you'd like, then we can see if the firebender can use it.

endoperez

2008-07-23, 03:43 PM

The concept could be useful, yes, but it sounds more like a tactical feat than a firebender class ability. Try writing it up if you'd like, then we can see if the firebender can use it.

I haven't played enough D&D to hope to do anything but very simple stuff. I tried to help because I really like this project, but it seems I only managed to derail the discussion a bit. This is a rather simple idea and probably far from balanced, but perhaps it's useful as a concept for something else:

Aggressive counterattack.
A firebender deals extra damage when using his Fire Blast ability against enemies that attacked him during the last round. The damage starts from 1d6 at 4th level, and increases by further 1d6 for every 4 levels, for maximum of +5d6 at level 20.

AstralFire

2008-07-23, 07:03 PM

Okay, the prototype firebender is pretty much done, with some examples.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4581152

String

2008-07-23, 08:17 PM

On the topic of Firebenders, and benders in general: While staring absently at the IrohITP at the top of the firebender writeup, I was struck with a question: Is it possible to split your blasts, or seeds? I guess you might say that the bender in question is simply targetting two people with consecutive Blasts, but I'm wondering if you can split your blast to target two opponents simultaneously? I seem to remember Zuko or Iroh doing something like striking with a hand and a foot on opposite sides and firing off blasts. Just a thought

ErrantX

2008-07-23, 08:43 PM

I've a couple more things I'd like to toss out there, as it seems to be problematic on some level.

I hate the overbending rules in their entirety, and in fact wish they'd go away. I'd much prefer action points ala Unearthed Arcana / d20SRD. Can someone tell me why we have overbending again? It's been a long time since I've lingered and I'm curious to find out.

Next, we could just make all airbending seeds that do direct damage do either a decreased damage die or make it do non-lethal damage. All Study Feats require someone who has the feat or a bender of the appropriate type to teach it (maybe a special clause we add into the actual feat's description).

I don't want to be the guy to beat a dead horse, but I also have to think that we've come an awful long way and really have an incredible product here. I am afraid that we're tinkering with it because we don't have anything else to do with ourselves when it comes to this product. Now I'm trying to hurt anyone's feelings by saying that the new blood here should keep their mouths shut on glaring problems, but at the same time, not everyone who comes through the door should be able to suggest a drastic overhaul just because they think they could do it better.

Not trying to call anyone out, I'm just saying. Take it as it is.

-X

AstralFire

2008-07-23, 09:39 PM

I guess you might say that the bender in question is simply targetting two people with consecutive Blasts, but I'm wondering if you can split your blast to target two opponents simultaneously?

How would that really be any different from consecutive blast targeting? Due to the turn-based nature, it's not like there's an actual speed difference.

I've a couple more things I'd like to toss out there, as it seems to be problematic on some level.

I hate the overbending rules in their entirety, and in fact wish they'd go away. I'd much prefer action points ala Unearthed Arcana / d20SRD. Can someone tell me why we have overbending again? It's been a long time since I've lingered and I'm curious to find out.

Next, we could just make all airbending seeds that do direct damage do either a decreased damage die or make it do non-lethal damage. All Study Feats require someone who has the feat or a bender of the appropriate type to teach it (maybe a special clause we add into the actual feat's description).

I don't want to be the guy to beat a dead horse, but I also have to think that we've come an awful long way and really have an incredible product here. I am afraid that we're tinkering with it because we don't have anything else to do with ourselves when it comes to this product. Now I'm trying to hurt anyone's feelings by saying that the new blood here should keep their mouths shut on glaring problems, but at the same time, not everyone who comes through the door should be able to suggest a drastic overhaul just because they think they could do it better.

Not trying to call anyone out, I'm just saying. Take it as it is.

-X

Well, I'm pretty much the main 'new blood' of the last few pages and I'm the only one suggesting any overhauls, so it's kind of hard to avoid me thinking you're talking to me.

There are very few products that cannot be improved; even mechanically amazing supplements like the XPH, Tome of Battle and Complete Warrior had a few duds in 'em. My suggestions are from the aspect of an optimizer and are meant to be helpful, and even what little I've done draws largely on the huge amounts that were done before.

String

2008-07-23, 09:56 PM

Something I just noticed, a wording confusion: In the Child of the Sun/Moon abilities it states:
During the day, firebenders gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Firebending checks due to the influence of the sun. Additionally, during the passage of a comet near the planet, Firebenders gain an additional +5 circumstance bonus to Firebending checks.
(with mostly identical language for the waterbenders ability)And while it could be obvious that the +2 for Day/Night and the +5 for Comet/FullMoon stack, perhaps in the name of clarity the clause "for a total of +7" should be added to the end of that last sentence?

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-23, 10:20 PM

Well, I'm pretty much the main 'new blood' of the last few pages and I'm the only one suggesting any overhauls, so it's kind of hard to avoid me thinking you're talking to me. I'm sorry about this, Astral, but I'm going to have to agree with X, who is a great deal better with tact than I am. I greatly appreciate you pointing out what should have been a glaring design error in the firebender, but the solution is not a complete overhaul to the system that has worked so well up until this point. The problem is that you've given us a project that looks like it's been through the U.S. Senate; loaded with earmarks. It's generally not a good idea to write up new names for established seeds, create new seeds, undermine a foundational principle of BAB-based iterative attacks, revamp basic abilities, grant bonus feats, and propose a whole new direction to take a year-and-a-half old class concept, all in one post, and then get a thumbs-up on it all. Relax, and take it one ability at a time, so we can work together to edit and critique.

Now, I do take the suggested changes seriously. I, for one, am all for adopting this table for Play with Fire, with DCs slightly increased.
{table=head]Fire Size|Example|Damage|Animated Height or Length|DC
Fine | Tindertwig | 1 | < 5 ft. | 6
Diminutive | Torch | 1d3 | < 5 ft. | 11
Tiny | Small Campfire | 1d6 | 5 ft. | 13
Small | Large Campfire | 2d6 | 10 ft. | 16
Medium | Forge | 3d6 | 15 ft. | 20
Large | Bonfire | 4d6 | 20 ft. | 25
Huge | Burning Shack | 5d6 | 30 ft. | 31
Gargantuan | Burning Tavern | 6d6 | 40 ft. | 38
Colossal | Burning Inn | 7d6 | 55 ft. | 46
Colossal+ | Burning Village | 8d6 | 70 ft. | 55[/table]

I hate the overbending rules in their entirety, and in fact wish they'd go away. I'd much prefer action points ala Unearthed Arcana / d20SRD. Can someone tell me why we have overbending again? It's been a long time since I've lingered and I'm curious to find out.Because overbending is more thematically appropriate than action points and, more importantly, incurs fatigue and other ill effects. Also, Overbending can grant far more spectacular results at high levels, though at high risk.

AstralFire

2008-07-23, 10:43 PM

I'm sorry about this, Astral, but I'm going to have to agree with X, who is a great deal better with tact than I am. I greatly appreciate you pointing out what should have been a glaring design error in the firebender, but the solution is not a complete overhaul to the system that has worked so well up until this point. The problem is that you've given us a project that looks like it's been through the U.S. Senate; loaded with earmarks. It's generally not a good idea to write up new names for established seeds, create new seeds, undermine a foundational principle of BAB-based iterative attacks, revamp basic abilities, grant bonus feats, and propose a whole new direction to take a year-and-a-half old class concept, all in one post, and then get a thumbs-up on it all. Relax, and take it one ability at a time, so we can work together to edit and critique.

Now, I do take the suggested changes seriously. I, for one, am all for adopting this table for Play with Fire, with DCs slightly increased.
{table=head]Fire Size|Example|Damage|Animated Height or Length|DC
Fine | Tindertwig | 1 | < 5 ft. | 6
Diminutive | Torch | 1d3 | < 5 ft. | 11
Tiny | Small Campfire | 1d6 | 5 ft. | 13
Small | Large Campfire | 2d6 | 10 ft. | 16
Medium | Forge | 3d6 | 15 ft. | 20
Large | Bonfire | 4d6 | 20 ft. | 25
Huge | Burning Shack | 5d6 | 30 ft. | 31
Gargantuan | Burning Tavern | 6d6 | 40 ft. | 38
Colossal | Burning Inn | 7d6 | 55 ft. | 46
Colossal+ | Burning Village | 8d6 | 70 ft. | 55[/table]

Because overbending is more thematically appropriate than action points and, more importantly, incurs fatigue and other ill effects. Also, Overbending can grant far more spectacular results at high levels, though at high risk.

I am aware that the system is... radical, and I was very much aware as I began the idea last night that most of the ideas would be rejected. It's extremely arrogant of me to come in to an old, established project and suggest so much. I'm aware of that, I said that last night, and I apologize... however, you have all of my ideas in one plate to look at, rather than me submitting everything piece by piece. Some changes are harder to make than others because you have to consider what everything does. Making DC suggestions is particularly hard to do one at a time given the very nature of the system, which is part of why I felt compelled to show everything at once.

I definitely feel that increasing the firebender flurry, while mechanically effective, is the wrong way to go with improving their issues. A round is six seconds, and firebenders, though fluid, I don't really recall shooting off a blast every second. However, by the same token, increasing dice amount is a bad idea because of the suggested VP/WP rules.

Frankly, I don't care if the foundation of my prototype, the lack of iterative blast, is completely ignored. I'm getting the ideas out there.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-24, 12:03 AM

Alright then, would you please give is a brief overview of each of your proposed changes? I'm still not sure what your alternative to iterative attacks is for the firebender.

endoperez

2008-07-24, 01:28 AM

A round is six seconds, and firebenders, though fluid, I don't really recall shooting off a blast every second. H

There are some examples of "shooting off a blast every second":
- Practice. The "form" practice various characters are seen performing when they practice their firebending basically consists of firing sevearal consecutive blasts in a few seconds' time.
- Also, in some of his fights, Zuko keeps alternating his hands and shooting fireblasts at his opponent. His duel with Zhao, the end fight of season two where he fires four blasts in a very short time, etc.

I'm another "new blood" here, and I also hope I'm not a nuisance.

AstralFire

2008-07-24, 01:33 AM

There are some examples of "shooting off a blast every second":
- Practice. The "form" practice various characters are seen performing when they practice their firebending basically consists of firing sevearal consecutive blasts in a few seconds' time.
- Also, in some of his fights, Zuko keeps alternating his hands and shooting fireblasts at his opponent. His duel with Zhao, the end fight of season two where he fires four blasts in a very short time, etc.

That is true; a seed should be made to illustrate that, but it still isn't something we see happening all the time, which is what the system currently implies.

I'm another "new blood" here, and I also hope I'm not a nuisance.

Doubt it; I'm the one raising cane[sp?] around here.

Alright then, would you please give is a brief overview of each of your proposed changes? I'm still not sure what your alternative to iterative attacks is for the firebender.

Right then.

1) Rise with/Child of the Sun. Environment bonus because Focused Bending is a circumstance bonus and that should really stack. Name change was just because I really liked Zuko's line from the S1 finale.

2) Fire Blast: There are two sources of damage - skill roll, and the two empowering class features, Firepower. By basing the damage primarily on skill roll (with a restriction of die per HD or level), bending blasts do not suffer quite as much from multiclassing. Currently, any class the bender enters that does not advance his bending blast damage will hurt his damage significantly (except in the case of sneak attack, which advances much faster than bending damage.) However, if you're willing to burn skill points under the prototype system, you're able to keep up your fire blast damage for a while.

This is especially true in a VP/WP system, as only the number of dice is relevant to how much damage you deal on a critical hit, not any unrolled damage like from the Firepower multipliers. Long-term class switching will still hurt your damage, though, as Firepower multipliers are necessary to keep up with the power bumps that occur as martial classes add iterative attacks. They're timed to show up around the same time most characters get iterative attack increases.

Making bending blasts a standard attack limits the amount of rolls made a round to a degree (especially when deflecting a lot); in the current system, a fire and an airbender going at each other at level 20 are throwing around about 6 d20 rolls a round each, half of those are getting negated by Deflect Attack.

In the prototype, it is expected that a bender will quicken a second blast to a move action if they want to just stand in one place and shoot for maximum damage. They lose out on a little bit less than half of their damage if they don't, which means that there is incentive to double attack without completely penalizing them for moving. As dependent as the current system is on a full attack, there's almost no point in firing a single bending blast if you had to use your move action on something that round.

I suspect that issue was noticed in the current system, given the feats Circle Walking and Mobile Mastery, but Mobile Mastery has high requirements not every bender can make, and Circle Walking can only be effectively taken by Airbenders, as they're the only ones that gain Tumble as a class skill, and benders don't have many skill points to spare. (Those feats also allow for a phenomenon, at least with firebenders that do qualify, that there are very few situations where a full attack action isn't the only good choice, basically when you need to run as a full-round. You may want to look at that, at higher levels anyone with either feat essentially gets to full-attack as a standard action; there's a reason that kind of motion in D&D tends to be hard to get access to and is typically given to melee only.)

I feel one blast every 3 seconds, with the rare one blast every 2 is a bit closer to the feel of the combat in the show, as well.

3) Manipulate Fire: This got greatly expanded because this seed is, in essence, any manipulation of fire that doesn't require a specific shape or needs to move very fast. You can make fire walls now with this. This name was just for ease when portmanteauing new form names.

4) Base Attack Bonus: Fire benders are the most offensively oriented of the bending classes, and I felt they should be the most precise at attacking as a result. Just as Earth currently gets a bigger HD, I would probably switch Water to have all good saves and Air can keep its higher AC and Evasion.

5) Bonus Feats: A good way to encourage firebender personalization, but it wouldn't be gamebreaking if they didn't have them. I'd propose something similar for all bending classes to reflect the differing styles.

6) Multiple Applications of Seeds: I attempted to split or remove all 'second uses' of seeds. The only time that that wasn't successful was with Incandescence, where the two moves are very logical progressions of one another that nonetheless could not be easily summed up into one ability. Propulsion and Burning Rush are both powerful enough that I figured it was worth making someone take an extra seed to get them both.

7) Seed Compatibility: A lot of seeds in the current system explicitly deal Fire Blast damage, which is part of what limits the ability to create things with Firebending. Though what a firebender can do is still limited, it's now possible to use a lot more templates with Playing with Fire (Explosion, Burning Rush, Farflame, Heat Wave, Pyrotechnics, Flaming Strike (when Quickened)), Incandescence (Fire Sweep, Flamethrower, Firestorm, Farflame, Pyrotechnics, Heat Wave, Flaming Strike (when Quickened)), and Fire Whip (Flaming Strike, Pyrotechnics, Heat Wave). That greatly improves the variety in a firebender's repertoire.

8) Lingering Flames: 1d6 damage every round is big at lower levels, but not so much at higher ones, and at low levels it wears off pretty easy. 5 points = 1d6 damage from Fire Blast, modified by +50% at level 9, and +100% at level 18.

9) Farflame: I lowered bending range across the board to a standard of 60 feet; even in the finale we really just don't see a lot of difficult bending at extreme distances, while the current Fire Kicks works at nearly 300 feet. There's only one long-ranged, power-based fight in Sozin's Comet that I think this seed would fail to mimic accurately, and it wouldn't be by a very large margin. Avatar isn't a dungeon-crawling setting and additional range is really a very large advantage. Allowing this template to also move the origin point of Point Blank attacks I think adds for some interesting variety.

10) Fire Whip: In the original system, it didn't specify a limit on how large you could increase the whip, or whether it was a straight damage die increase or an actual weapon size increase. If it increased as the former, did it cap at 1d12, 1d20, or 1d100? If it increased as the latter, it built up additional damage really fast for very little DC.

11) Explosion: I added an additional usage for the sake of more seeds being combined with seeds, and allowing standing fires to bull rush seemed to create an interesting situation where you had semi-solid flames that would let no one pass through them.

12) Flaming Strike: I felt this was a more simple way to deal with the fact that firebenders often performed the somatic movements for a variety of firebending techniques while punching people in the face. I didn't make a version of the fire swords because there was already a fire whip creation thingy and it felt sort of redundant. That would probably get moved under a variety of fire whip.

The AoO application I think speaks well to the offensive philosophy of firebenders alluded to by endo - when their opponent makes a misstep, capitalize on it.

13) Burning Rush: The full-round action required by the Firebender's Leap seemed unnecessary to me as, if you jump more than your move actions left allow, you don't end your jump until next round. I also definitely recall Zuko more than once starting a fire blast in mid-air, which I think would be mechanically represented as a move action jump with a standard action blast. This is a slight power bump for Burning Rush, though.

14) Fire Sweep: Just altered to become a template for broader applicability.

15) Incandescence: Mostly just allowed the bender to heat other things.

16) Fire in the Stomach: As proper breath control is meant to allow someone to maximize their energy usage, the ability to ignore fatigue without becoming immune to it seemed the best way to represent that. The bonus to your next firebending check is a small feature so that people will be slightly more inclined to take this. (How often do fatigue and breath-holding come up in most games?)

17) Breath of the Dragon: Just some clarifying text added.

18) Firestorm: I switched the name from Fire Burst in honor of the class feature I removed. I changed the name back because I realized Burst was used as generic terminology for PBAoE attacks in the bending system. And generally, I don't really care if my names are used or not. Just altered to become a template for broader applicability, made it harder to increase the radius because of its usefulness in making an escape for a surrounded bender when added with Explosion.

19) Heat Wave: Being able to force anyone careful to move at your whim (essentially) is very powerful, which is why the original Lingering Flames was DC +15 to begin with.

20) Flamethrower: I specified a width and length, we don't really see many wide, long beams. All that comes to mind is the finale, which can be represented well with use of Farflames template. The given size isn't particularly large so the DC got dropped a lot. Its advantage is primarily that it's more precise than Firestorm or Fire Sweep.

21) Pyrotechnics: Being able to blind someone and force two different saves is really nice for a number of reasons, and my level 20 Solar Flare example is well in-line with the 8th level spell Sunburst - more precise to help allies, smaller radius. Also the fascinate is a cool utility effect in a school of bending starved for them, which is why I cribbed it from Yasho. :D

22) Cold Fire: I just chose the application's name preferentially for thematics. A critical fire blast with damage die raised one step hits pretty hard, especially in VP/WP - we don't really see the attack as being terribly accurate, either, with its only two successful scores on targets at a severe disadvantage, but it's doable. We've agreed it should be very hard to deflect, and because it basically is death for anyone hit (especially in VP/WP), I think the attack of opportunity it invokes should be a real problem. You shouldn't get hit with lightning if you're staying in people's faces.

23) Propulsion: I didn't want to make seeds actually have prerequisites, but it's really an extension of Burning Rush. So you need Burning Rush to move quickly with this seed, otherwise it's mostly useful for slowing falls. The name change was unintentional.

yosho

2008-07-24, 02:02 AM

I don't want to be the guy to beat a dead horse, but I also have to think that we've come an awful long way and really have an incredible product here. I am afraid that we're tinkering with it because we don't have anything else to do with ourselves when it comes to this product. Now I'm trying to hurt anyone's feelings by saying that the new blood here should keep their mouths shut on glaring problems, but at the same time, not everyone who comes through the door should be able to suggest a drastic overhaul just because they think they could do it better.

Not trying to call anyone out, I'm just saying. Take it as it is.

-X

Hum, now I'm starting to feel a bit guilty. Seeing as I've been watching this project since its first incarnation I felt that the mechanics have been worked very precisely and that we were just adding and refining content.

But anyway, two small questions.
1. Which of the pages (the website or first page) is the one with the newest updates?
2. Has anyone been keeping track of the proposed changes?

Well must just say once again that this is one of the best d20 conversion projects that I've come across and its my favorite avatar d20 project. So I must commend all you guys who have been working on it since the beginning.

Mephibosheth

2008-07-24, 10:33 AM

First, let me start by saying I appreciate your suggestions, AstralFire. You've been extremely helpful in pointing out some of the system's shortcomings and suggesting constructive and interesting changes. Even if we end up not using your new system, I have valued (and continue to value) your input.

Man, I totally sound preachy and leader-like whenever I post. I don't mean to do that. I think it's because I work in an elected official's office and spend my day writing letters that sound a lot like that. I'm really a normal guy, honest!

Now, to address your summary piece by piece, as is my wont.

1) Rise with/Child of the Sun. Environment bonus because Focused Bending is a circumstance bonus and that should really stack. Name change was just because I really liked Zuko's line from the S1 finale.

Circumstance bonuses from different sources stack, meaning that the bonus from the "Child of X" abilities stacks with the bonus from Focused Bending. I'm fine with either name, though yours is derived from the show, which makes me initially inclined to the change.

2) Fire Blast: There are two sources of damage - skill roll, and the two empowering class features, Firepower. By basing the damage primarily on skill roll (with a restriction of die per HD or level), bending blasts do not suffer quite as much from multiclassing. Currently, any class the bender enters that does not advance his bending blast damage will hurt his damage significantly (except in the case of sneak attack, which advances much faster than bending damage.) However, if you're willing to burn skill points under the prototype system, you're able to keep up your fire blast damage for a while.

This is especially true in a VP/WP system, as only the number of dice is relevant to how much damage you deal on a critical hit, not any unrolled damage like from the Firepower multipliers. Long-term class switching will still hurt your damage, though, as Firepower multipliers are necessary to keep up with the power bumps that occur as martial classes add iterative attacks. They're timed to show up around the same time most characters get iterative attack increases.

Making bending blasts a standard attack limits the amount of rolls made a round to a degree (especially when deflecting a lot); in the current system, a fire and an airbender going at each other at level 20 are throwing around about 6 d20 rolls a round each, half of those are getting negated by Deflect Attack.

In the prototype, it is expected that a bender will quicken a second blast to a move action if they want to just stand in one place and shoot for maximum damage. They lose out on a little bit less than half of their damage if they don't, which means that there is incentive to double attack without completely penalizing them for moving. As dependent as the current system is on a full attack, there's almost no point in firing a single bending blast if you had to use your move action on something that round.

I suspect that issue was noticed in the current system, given the feats Circle Walking and Mobile Mastery, but Mobile Mastery has high requirements not every bender can make, and Circle Walking can only be effectively taken by Airbenders, as they're the only ones that gain Tumble as a class skill, and benders don't have many skill points to spare. (Those feats also allow for a phenomenon, at least with firebenders that do qualify, that there are very few situations where a full attack action isn't the only good choice, basically when you need to run as a full-round. You may want to look at that, at higher levels anyone with either feat essentially gets to full-attack as a standard action; there's a reason that kind of motion in D&D tends to be hard to get access to and is typically given to melee only.)

I feel one blast every 3 seconds, with the rare one blast every 2 is a bit closer to the feel of the combat in the show, as well.

There are a number of issues here, so I'm going to go paragraph by paragraph.

One of our founding assumptions from the very beginning of the project was that benders don't multiclass very frequently. The bending disciplines are portrayed in the show as extremely rigerous, and characters who seem to possess abilities gained by multiclassing (most notably, Zuko) are noticeably less powerful than devoted benders. For this reason, I'm not to worried about firebenders losing blast damage if they multiclass. I could see perhaps a feat to facilitate it somewhat, though.

Another reason I like giving Fire Blast a fixed progression rather than basing it on the skill roll is that it provides something to fill levels. We've noticed a large number of dead levels in the bending classes, and having Fire Blast damage increase with class level helps aleviate this problem.

Your next change was to eliminate using Fire Blasts at the rate of iterative attacks. I contend (and I think the show and the peripheral literature back me in this) that firebending is extremely quick and there are multiple examples of firebenders using a flurry of quick blasts. The best example I can think of is Iroh in The Siege of the North when he takes out Zhao's firebending guards in a quick flurry of blasts. We also see Zuko and other firebenders making similar attacks on a number of occasions.

To broaden the discussion slightly, your system would necessitate an extension of this principle to the other benders, and I think the show's evidence to the contrary becomes even stronger. We see earthbenders launching multiple projectiles in quick succession frequently. The best example I can think of is Shin Fu during the closing combat of The Blind Bandit. I'm convinced that the bending arts as depicted in the show can be extremely quick and iterative.

Next, you touch on using the rules for quickened bending to fire multiple Fire Blasts. I don't think the intention was ever for these rules to apply to bending blasts, and would support a modification to make this explicit.

Finally, I share your concern about the propensity of the system to encourage full attacks at the expense of mobility. I agree that this isn't necessarily accurate to the show, but feel that this is more of a shortcoming of the d20 system than our specific adaptation, especially for d20 3.5. Additionally, we've seen in the show that benders (especially earthbenders and firebenders, who value strong stances more highly than airbenders and waterbenders) do stay in one place if they can. Finally, playtesting combats have shown that it still benefits members of all classes to remain mobile, especially since bending provokes an AoO. You're right in your assumption that Circle Walking was designed with airbenders in mind. Airbending moves are based on Ba Gua, which utilizes circle walking extensively.

3) Playing With Fire: This got greatly expanded because this seed is, in essence, any manipulation of fire that doesn't require a specific shape or needs to move very fast. You can make fire walls now with this.

I like the premise behind this change and would consider modifying Play with Fire. I don't necessarily support making fire walls with this ability, but this isn't a huge issue.

4) Base Attack Bonus: Fire benders are the most offensively oriented of the bending classes, and I felt they should be the most precise at attacking as a result. Just as Earth currently gets a bigger HD, I would probably switch Water to have all good saves and Air can keep its higher AC and Evasion.

I'm not necessarily opposed to differentiating between benders in this fashion, but given my support for bending at the rate of iterative attacks, I can't support this change.

5) Bonus Feats: A good way to encourage firebender personalization, but it wouldn't be gamebreaking if they didn't have them. I'd propose something similar for all bending classes to reflect the differing styles.

Similar suggestions have been made a number of times in the past. In most cases, they haven't met with great support for one reason or another. Unless we decide to switch over to your class structure, I wouldn't support adding bonus feats.

6) Multiple Applications of Seeds: I attempted to split or remove all 'second uses' of seeds. The only time that that wasn't successful was with Incandescence, where the two moves are very logical progressions of one another that nonetheless could not be easily summed up into one ability. Propulsion and Burning Rush are both powerful enough that I figured it was worth making someone take an extra seed to get them both.

The first version of the classes (which you can find on the website, rebalanced based on the development of version 2.0) was similar to this in that bending forms didn't have multiple applications. The multiple applications were added to version 2.0 in order to increase the bender's versitility and make the seeds worthwhile as the bender progressed.

7) Seed Compatibility: A lot of seeds in the current system explicitly deal Fire Blast damage, which is part of what limits the ability to create things with Firebending. Though what a firebender can do is still limited, it's now possible to use a lot more templates with Playing with Fire (Explosion, Burning Rush, Farflame, Heat Wave, Pyrotechnics, Flaming Strike (when Quickened)), Incandescence (Fire Sweep, Flamethrower, Firestorm, Farflame, Pyrotechnics, Heat Wave, Flaming Strike (when Quickened)), and Fire Whip (Flaming Strike, Pyrotechnics, Heat Wave). That greatly improves the variety in a firebender's repertoire.

This is a good suggestion and I think we could adopt it with some changes to the language of the seeds.

8) Lingering Flames: 1d6 damage every round is big at lower levels, but not so much at higher ones, and at low levels it wears off pretty easy. 5 points = 1d6 damage from Fire Blast, modified by +50% at level 9, and +100% at level 18.

I think your first version of this seed had pretty wide acceptance and I'm going to add it to the class when I get a chance to update.

9) Farflame: I lowered bending range across the board to a standard of 60 feet; even in the finale we really just don't see a lot of difficult bending at extreme distances, while the current Fire Kicks works at nearly 300 feet. There's only one long-ranged, power-based fight in Sozin's Comet that I think this seed would fail to mimic accurately, and it wouldn't be by a very large margin. Avatar isn't a dungeon-crawling setting and additional range is really a very large advantage. Allowing this template to also move the origin point of Point Blank attacks I think adds for some interesting variety.

I think I could support reducing the bending range, which would make our Fire Kick a more viable option and might leave room for a separate seed for increasing damage (the added damage from Fire Kick was added because people though that simply increasing the range wasn't valuable enough).

10) Fire Whip: In the original system, it didn't specify a limit on how large you could increase the whip, or whether it was a straight damage die increase or an actual weapon size increase. If it increased as the former, did it cap at 1d12, 1d20, or 1d100? If it increased as the latter, it built up additional damage really fast for very little DC.

Yeah, a cap is probably a good idea. What would you suggest?

11) Explosion: I added an additional usage for the sake of more seeds being combined with seeds, and allowing standing fires to bull rush seemed to create an interesting situation where you had semi-solid flames that would let no one pass through them.

An interesting suggestion, and Explosion could use a re-working to allow it to apply to more abilities, but we've never seen semi-solid fires in the show, so I don't think I would support allowing this template to apply to natural fire.

12) Flaming Strike: I felt this was a more simple way to deal with the fact that firebenders often performed the somatic movements for a variety of firebending techniques while punching people in the face. I didn't make a version of the fire swords because there was already a fire whip creation thingy and it felt sort of redundant. That would probably get moved under a variety of fire whip.

The AoO application I think speaks well to the offensive philosophy of firebenders alluded to by endo - when their opponent makes a misstep, capitalize on it.

We created Blades of Fire because of specific instances where firebenders either bend through swords or create small knives of flame (see the battle between Zuko and Azula in The Avatar State). However, I could see some sort of syncretism.

13) Burning Rush: The full-round action required by the Firebender's Leap seemed unnecessary to me as, if you jump more than your move actions left allow, you don't end your jump until next round. I also definitely recall Zuko more than once starting a fire blast in mid-air, which I think would be mechanically represented as a move action jump with a standard action blast. This is a slight power bump for Burning Rush, though.

I don't think I'd have a problem with reducing the time required to do a Firebender's Leap. Otherwise, the two seeds seem pretty similar and I'm fine with either one.

14) Fire Sweep: Just altered to become a template for broader applicability.

15) Incandescence: Mostly just allowed the bender to heat other things.

Both these changes seem reasonable to me.

16) Fire in the Stomach: As proper breath control is meant to allow someone to maximize their energy usage, the ability to ignore fatigue without becoming immune to it seemed the best way to represent that. The bonus to your next firebending check is a small feature so that people will be slightly more inclined to take this. (How often do fatigue and breath-holding come up in most games?)

I'm fine with these changes.

17) Breath of the Dragon: Just some clarifying text added.

18) Firestorm: I switched the name from Fire Burst in honor of the class feature I removed. Just altered to become a template for broader applicability, made it harder to increase the radius because of its usefulness in making an escape for a surrounded bender when added with Explosion. I'll probably change the name back because I realized Burst was used as generic terminology for PBAoE attacks in the bending system. And generally, I don't really care if my names are used or not.

These changes look alright too. In general, I'm in favor of broadening the applicability of firebending seeds.

19) Heat Wave: Being able to force anyone careful to move at your whim (essentially) is very powerful, which is why the original Lingering Flames was DC +15 to begin with.

I still like this seed, though probably your original version. I'm not really opposed to separating the two applications, however.

21) Pyrotechnics: Being able to blind someone and force two different saves is really nice for a number of reasons, and my level 20 Solar Flare example is well in-line with the 8th level spell Sunburst - more precise to help allies, smaller radius. Also the fascinate is a cool utility effect in a school of bending starved for them, which is why I cribbed it from Yasho. :D

I do like Will saves, and we have so few in this system. I like this seed. My only suggestion would be to include some sort of role-playing requirement pertaining to The Firebending Masters, but that's a minor issue and I'm fine with the seed without it.

22) Cold Fire: I just chose the application's name preferentially for thematics. A critical fire blast with damage die raised one step hits pretty hard, especially in VP/WP - we don't really see the attack as being terribly accurate, either, with its only two successful scores on targets at a severe disadvantage, but it's doable. We've agreed it should be very hard to deflect, and because it basically is death for anyone hit (especially in VP/WP), I think the attack of opportunity it invokes should be a real problem. You shouldn't get hit with lightning if you're staying in people's faces.

I actually kind of like how you've dealt with this seed. I think I would support this change for the current version of firebenders. What says the community?

23) Propulsion: I didn't want to make seeds actually have prerequisites, but it's really an extension of Burning Rush. So you need Burning Rush to move quickly with this seed, otherwise it's mostly useful for slowing falls. The name change was unintentional.

I'm not really sure how I feel about this seed, especially the slow speed. Whenever we see them fly, firebenders are always either hovering or going pretty fast.

Like I said, good changes, and I hope my comments aren't unreasonable. I like a lot of the changes you've made to seeds, but not necessarily the changes to the basic structure of the class.

two small questions.
1. Which of the pages (the website or first page) is the one with the newest updates?
2. Has anyone been keeping track of the proposed changes?

In general, the website is probably more accurate and up-to-date. I tend to update that before I update the thread. I'm also keeping track of proposed changes, at least in the general sense, and will probably be doing some updates soon.

Mephibosheth

Pirate_King

2008-07-24, 10:40 AM

Wow. This is what happens when your bookmarks vanish at the same time the server goes down. Anyone miss me?

I like Astralfire's new seeds, but I haven't looked at all his other changes. 4 new pages is a lot to take in this morning. However his ideas are handled, I think I'm likely to agree with seraph or Meph, so I'll sacrifice whatever firebender loving opinion I might have to not have to review all that and just check the website when the changes are made. I would also like to point out that Jong Jong also flew in the finale. and that the finale was freakin' intense.

Not to derail the subject or anything, but now that I've actually read through the 4e core books, I don't think an update would be entirely out of hand. My main problem with 4e was the lack of customizability of the classes, particularly the limitations of the multi-class feat, not to mention completely doing away with the full round action and multiple attacks. However, I do think the power system really does represent multiple attacks well from the characters that should be good at it. basically changing any feat that granted some kind of combat ability to a power also simplified things. I don't like how magic is changed much, but that wouldn't matter for a bending equivalent. A 4e update might take some of the flexability of the bending system away, but by making different bending forms into powers or putting them under the skill would save a lot of it. Most of the low level seeds could be at will powers. I think it would work kind of like warlocks, everyone would get a blast, then pick another at will power depending on what kind of bender, like fire or water whip, column, or air thrust. Encounter and daily powers really take fatigue into account for the game; it makes sense that a person would have to rest between uses of his awesome powers, something that 3.x didn't, unless a DM house rules fatigue or exhaustion from fighting too much. I'll try not to push the 4e system in general too much more, since this post is becoming rather long, but I think the bending system can be greatly simplified by it without losing too much flexibility.

Katasi

2008-07-24, 10:56 AM

AstralFire

2008-07-24, 11:00 AM

Well, I appreciate the thoughtfulness, a lot - I really do, I know it's not easy to deal with this guy thunderbolting in out of nowhere and going "UR DOIN IT RONG".

In a quick reply about the bending blasts, I would point out that a lot of my changes to AoEs are predicated on fire blast damage improving with the DC. The current iterative attack method would continue to leave us with AoEs that are vastly inferior and unusable against the option just multiple bending blasts, and also would require most of those templates carrying their own rules for damage increase progression. (I know you stated earlier that lack of AoE damage was okay, but I feel that there are enough instances of AoE strikes from the other benders to assume fire can do it and do it well - it just doesn't get to because that would be very lethal looking, like when Aang burned Katara's face.)

That can be fixed with multipliers to those damage sources, but the DCs would all need to be systematically re-examined again.

Earthbenders with their rubble blasts I think wouldn't necessarily be represented with numerous small attacks - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm - demonstrates that large amounts of small debris can also be represented (arguably better and more quickly) with a reflex save than multiple attack rolls. As I mentioned earlier as well, a seed that allows a number of small, rapid blows would be an option as well.

Overall, I do think working off of a non-iterative attack basis is a lot easier to balance if you want variety in attacks and not just balance. As 3.x progressed, Wizards really stopped leaning on the Flurry of Blows paradigm, and all the d20 spin-offs (SW d20, d20 Modern, 4E) removed iterative attacks. It is possible to do it, I'm sure, I just currently can't think of how to.

Pirate_King

2008-07-24, 11:19 AM

Um... actually there ARE rules in 3.5 about how long a person can fight without being fatigued by it.

where? I never saw, but I could be terribly ignorant. anyhow, I still think the streamlined ways of 4e can be advantageous. We can make many of the template seeds or non-combat seeds part of the skill, since there are some seeds that don't make sense for a bender not to know them.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-24, 11:21 AM

I'm not even going to touch the 4e stuff, primarily because I can't afford the books and don't have anyone to play with now that most of my friends are in college.

Anyway, agree with Meph on all of the following:
Accepting the changes to Play with Fire
Not a huge fan of the proposed Fire Blast revamp. Let's keep it BAB and iterative, plz.
I also prefer Rise with the Sun to Child of the Sun
No bonus feats. Benders already have an edge over non-benders in this system, adding anything else would only start us on the long path of power creep.
Keeping multiple seed applications. I designed them that way for a reason, and it seems to have worked rather well in playtesting.
I'll...put up with the transfer of the suggested seeds as templates, for mechanical reasons. I think that they have been presented as individual abilities in the show, but I agree that it's much more mechanically sound for a firebender to do iterative Fire Sweeps.
Far FlameFire in the Stomach, Breath of the Dragon, Burning Rush, Fire Sweep, and Incandescence all look good as proposed changes.
The original version of Heat Wave was better, I must agree; and it should include both applications. Same thing for Lingering Flames
I'm not a fan of the Propulsion seed. I would just take the seed as you made it and make it an application of Burning Rush, while keeping the DC you assigned it and giving speed based upon the bonus granted by the Speed Burst application of Burning Rush.

I disagree on the following points, though.
Fire Burst should not be a template. That would mean iterative bursts, so that a firebender deals fire blast damage in a radius three or four times per turn. Far too powerful.
Cold Fire seems pretty badly nerfed now. I don't know if a single critical strike is worth losing a full attack, unless we officially use the VP/WP system. If we do use the VP/WP system, then it's definitely worth it. The -10 to attack is crippling, though. That makes the attack worthless against any worthwhile opponent that isn't flat-footed.

Further, I'm not sure how I feel about removing the full-round of preparation before executing a lightning attack. Azula and Ozai did execute some quick lightning attacks in the finale, but given how Zuko had enough time to react to Azula's attack to get in its way during their duel, I still say it requires a full-round of preparation, then another action to execute.
I really like the idea behind Flaming Strike; but it's brokenly powerful as written. Replace "Any firebending form you know" with "Fire Blast" and you've got a good form. Simply allow for templates to be added to the blast and you've got a solid seed. I also support combining Fire Whip and Blades of Fire into a single seed.
Now, let me get Pyrotechnics straight. The fascination ability only works outside of combat, in a non-hostile environment, right? Because a mind-affecting ability is not something I would grant firebenders, no matter how Will-saved starved our setting is. I could see some Dai Li-esque firebending organization using this to great effect.

Also, the language you used in your revamps, AstralFire, tends to be kind of...blocky, I guess. It's all mechanics and no explanation of what it actually looks like. Which is fine, for now. If we accept the changes we'll sand some of the corners down a bit and give the seeds some fluffy padding.

I'm sure there's more stuff I was planning to write. I'll write it when I remember.

AstralFire

2008-07-24, 12:00 PM

Wow, that solution was staring me in the face. I completely missed that. If the AoE attacks are generally built into the iterative system, then their lower damage isn't as much of an issue. That would require some custom tailoring, but that's a lot more doable than how I thought it would have to be dealt with. Iesu Christos Domine, sometimes I can be dumb as hell.

Regarding Base Attack Bonus, I would personally support ditching Firestorm entirely and letting Firebenders have a BAB as a Fighter. I should note that that is a very 'off-the-cuff' statement as I just was under a hot sun for an hour and I'm a humanities major so I really don't want to do math right now.

# Fire Burst should not be a template. That would mean iterative bursts, so that a firebender deals fire blast damage in a radius three or four times per turn. Far too powerful.

# Cold Fire seems pretty badly nerfed now. I don't know if a single critical strike is worth losing a full attack, unless we officially use the VP/WP system. If we do use the VP/WP system, then it's definitely worth it. The -10 to attack is crippling, though. That makes the attack worthless against any worthwhile opponent that isn't flat-footed.

My suggestions were made in mind with the new paradigm I'd suggested. Cold Fire working around the original version would probably be changed to look more like the earlier version - leveld8 as the base damage. I really don't think -10 attack for a single blow is that crippling, though, especially at the higher proposed BAB. And it's a save-or-suck.

I really like the idea behind Flaming Strike; but it's brokenly powerful as written. Replace "Any firebending form you know" with "Fire Blast" and you've got a good form. Simply allow for templates to be added to the blast and you've got a solid seed. I also support combining Fire Whip and Blades of Fire into a single seed.

Is it? The current base seeds are Manipulate/Play with Fire (requires a +10 right there to quicken), Fire Whip (you wouldn't be able to use it in that round), Incandescence (Takes a few rounds to work), Cold Fire (Can't be quickened, so is ineligible.)

Also, the language you used in your revamps, AstralFire, tends to be kind of...blocky, I guess. It's all mechanics and no explanation of what it actually looks like. Which is fine, for now. If we accept the changes we'll sand some of the corners down a bit and give the seeds some fluffy padding.

I've always been a strong proponent of the idea that crunch and fluff should be kept as separate layers. I like the idea of suggesting that Fire Sweep is typically a kick, for example, without actually requiring it to be. And yeah, once everything's hammered out, it's Fluffer Time. (...That sounded wrong.)

Keeping multiple seed applications. I designed them that way for a reason, and it seems to have worked rather well in playtesting.

We require more vespene seeds, then. Part of the splitting was to actually give firebending seeds a scarcity, there's only 16 ATM as I recall - bringing back Fire Kicks without folding any back in would be 17, only 6 higher than the total amount of seeds they can take. I would also argue that the reformatted seeds are each inherently more valuable as they can be combined in new ways.

An interesting suggestion, and Explosion could use a re-working to allow it to apply to more abilities, but we've never seen semi-solid fires in the show, so I don't think I would support allowing this template to apply to natural fire.

Hmm. However, a fire wall should still be pretty hard to see through clearly. What about making the concealment effect a basic part of shooting through fire? It affects the firebender himself if he tries to shoot through it, so it can't be used as a blanket protection.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-24, 12:24 PM

Is it? The current base seeds are Manipulate/Play with Fire (requires a +10 right there to quicken), Fire Whip (you wouldn't be able to use it in that round), Incandescence (Takes a few rounds to work), Cold Fire (Can't be quickened, so is ineligible.) The write-up as you have it says "Any firebending form. That is very, very powerful if, for example, the player has access to our Forms Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83598).

We require more vespene seeds, then. Part of the splitting was to actually give firebending seeds a scarcity, there's only 16 ATM as I recall - bringing back Fire Kicks without folding any back in would be 17, only 6 higher than the total amount of seeds they can take. I would also argue that the reformatted seeds are each inherently more valuable as they can be combined in new ways. Hrm. You, my friend, need to work on your tact. I'll have to disagree with you on the "inherently more valuable" bit, and what does "vespene" mean? It's not in the dictionary. I would also like to point out that we would neve "bring back" Fire Kick, because it has not been eliminated. We might take some of the new stuff and accept many of the changes you are proposing, but we do not start over with your class as the starting point. I'm pretty sure that that's what you meant, but again, try working on your tact.

Katasi

2008-07-24, 12:38 PM

where? I never saw, but I could be terribly ignorant. anyhow, I still think the streamlined ways of 4e can be advantageous. We can make many of the template seeds or non-combat seeds part of the skill, since there are some seeds that don't make sense for a bender not to know them.

It's not to terribly limiting, but it's actually under movement rules- actions in combat count as hustling, and a character can only hustle for a total of 1 hour per day. And they can't hustle at all if they are trying to heal or are doing something that requires only light activity.

AstralFire

2008-07-24, 12:40 PM

The write-up as you have it says "Any firebending form. That is very, very powerful if, for example, the player has access to our Forms Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83598).

This template can be applied to any form which requires a Standard Action or less to perform.

That's in the write-up.

Hrm. You, my friend, need to work on your tact. I'll have to disagree with you on the "inherently more valuable" bit

...I'm not saying my versions of the seeds are inherently better designed than yours. I am saying that they're, on the whole, each more powerful. As a designer I bias towards power creep in the name of coolness, and recombining the seeds in the states they are currently may result in a lower-level firebender becoming excessively powerful. The original versions of many seeds were limited in their functionality. The improved interconnectivity means that it's not quite as important that they have multiple uses, I would say.

, and what does "vespene" mean? It's not in the dictionary.

Starcraft reference. "WE REQUIRE MORE VESPENE GAS" is one of the more memorable lines.

I would also like to point out that we would neve "bring back" Fire Kick, because it has not been eliminated. We might take some of the new stuff and accept many of the changes you are proposing, but we do not start over with your class as the starting point. I'm pretty sure that that's what you meant, but again, try working on your tact.

Let me get something straight - this isn't my class. This is the same class (undeniably the same class) that you guys have been working on through this entire thread. I am far too much of a lazy ass to create my own ruleset from scratch, it's a lot of work. I am quite happy to try and symbiotically parasite, though. It was my variant on it to get some ideas flowing, and it seems to have worked. I haven't had time to math it out, but you mentioning the idea of iterative Fire Sweeps because I had altered it in the first place to be a template seems to give an easy solution to the nagging problem I brought up early on in my posts of low AoE damage, without significantly overhauling the class. That's teamwork and discussion at its best. :)

When I say "bring back Fire Kicks", I'm referring specifically to the shakedown concept. At no point have I assumed or presumed control of this project, and I made my own thread titled 'Random Avatar Scrap' purely so my suggestions wouldn't clog up an actually valuable thread more than necessary. I've returned to this thread to comment on it since it seems everyone else prefers sticking to one thread, so I am sorry for making people jump through hyperlink hell.

I've been pretty self-deprecating through this entire phase and I'm not sure how much more tactfully one can introduce a radical concept that exists purely for the sake of idea generation. That said, I sincerely apologize for coming off in a rude manner as I don't mean to do that.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-24, 01:34 PM

*sigh* I know, I know. I'm just irritable about the prospect still being nowhere close to done after at least a full year of working on the version 2.0 benders. Your suggested revamp set me off because it requires turning back the clock in the name of completion and excellence. And I just can't resist the lure of completion and excellence in a project like this. Sorry for taking it out on you.

Let's just continue refining the class until it's all that it can be. I'll suck up my borderline desperation and release it in an explosion of jubilee when we can put an official DONE stamp on this setting.

yosho

2008-07-24, 02:03 PM

Well more stuff, more opinions to give.

1. Full BAB firebenders. I say a big no. This change would undermine all the warrior classes in the setting and also makes it a very nice multiclass option.

2. Fascination only lasts as long as the target does not seem threatened. Thus if you fascinated an enemy and then drew your sword the fascination would break.

3. Cold fire- A -10 penalty to attack is a very large penalty and would make using it near obsolete. Also if possible could all material be constructed with both the vp and hp systems in mind?

4. About cold fire posibly taking one round to charge and then one to use. What we saw in the final was just a readied action. Zuko readied an action to act when Azula used lightning. At least that's how I saw all that. Note: Please remember that readied actions are used a lot in combat even though they may not mechanically be the best choice.

AstralFire

2008-07-24, 02:26 PM

Well more stuff, more opinions to give.

1. Full BAB firebenders. I say a big no. This change would undermine all the warrior classes in the setting and also makes it a very nice multiclass option.

BAB does not a melee specialist make. The Knight and Samurai classes are generally regarded as two of the most mechanically embarrassing things to come out of 3.5, and the Psychic Warrior is frequently used in King of Smack builds. Making it a nice multiclass option is a bit intentional on my part. Zuko is one of the most effective benders throughout Avatar and he is definitely a multiclass character.

3. Cold fire- A -10 penalty to attack is a very large penalty and would make using it near obsolete. Also if possible could all material be constructed with both the vp and hp systems in mind?

The -10 penalty I suggest always comes paired with a BAB increase, making it a -5 penalty compared to what we currently have. That's not so bad, and a very good Airbender at level 20 has an AC of 31. A good firebender can have a to-hit of +26 if they take Zen Archery. -10. That's hitting even an airbender from 15 to 20, and no one else (that does remind me, however, that none of the other benders get really adequate protection - the rest of them have ACs in the low 20s). Also bear in mind that both of the successful lightning strikes in the series -are- against flat-footed targets. And I've been trying to make material with VP and HP both in mind.

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-24, 03:25 PM

The Full BAB thing was a mid-length debate a while back, and we eventually decided to keep all benders at 3/4 BAB. If you look at any of the firebenders in the show, they don't seem significantly more accurate than the water or earthbenders. There were more arguments, but I'm not going to dig back through the threads and find them.

Mephibosheth

2008-07-24, 03:40 PM

Just so I'm clear, AstralFire, your main argument seems to be that AoE options for firebenders are weak in comparison to simply shooting single Fire Blasts at multiple foes. Your solution to this problem is to reduce a firebender to a single blast per round (possibly two, with quickened bending) and base blast damage off of a skill check rather than a fixed, level-based progression.

What if we compromise. None of the AoE seeds is a template in the original version. What if we simply gave them their own skill-based damage progression and adapted some of the template seeds to allow more variation? This way, we boost the power of AoE seeds a bit while still maintaining the iterative and level-based Fire Blasts. What do people say about this compromise?

Mephibosheth

Eighth_Seraph

2008-07-24, 03:44 PM

Hrm. Seems fine by me. So the majority of seeds would 1d6 damage per 5 points of the Firebending check? Or something?

Still, I kind of like the idea of Fire Sweep as a template.

Mephibosheth

2008-07-24, 03:49 PM

I could see that. I'm fairly sure we've seen Azula use a Fire Sweep-like ability in rapid succession. In that case, we'd probably want to leave it the same and disallow Firestorm while using it, similar to Fire Kick.

AstralFire

2008-07-24, 04:02 PM

That sounds about right, basically since Firebenders don't have many out-of-combat options, I want them to have lots of in-combat options. I just drew up another rendition prototype based on the iterative attack model, something intermediate between the original and the last version. It's based on Seraph's ideas, I'll give yours a think-over when I get back.

Notes:

1) Drops Flaming Strike, as I've reintegrated the Firebender's ability to fire blast on any attack of his choosing (and allowed him to AoO with them). It would be a good seed for the benders that do not enjoy that luxury, however.
2) Brings back iterative blasts, drops BAB back down.
3) Fire Kicks is still in limbo as far as my suggestions go. I think suggesting Firestorms use kicks might be the best idea, as I can't find much else special about them (since Firebenders in this version don't need to worry about having their hands holding a weapon. I kinda feel like you might want to generally drop that hands full point and just focus on ACP, I think Aang uses his kicks a lot to do stuff.)
4) I am currently brain-cramping. @_@ Haven't done any detailed number crunching on this set, but as it's very similar to the original, I feel semi-comfortable eyeballing it. I'll do math after I get some OJ.
5) Removed resistances in favor of an Endurance feat. That's actually a power decrease, but actual resistance to fire doesn't seem very accurate. I feel that since Firebenders do not get a movement mode by default, however, there is an argument to be made that they deserve a few bonus feats, maybe 3.
6) I think Fire Sweep should be usable with Firestorm, otherwise the firebender is still badly behind on AoE damage. I did adjust the damage done by Fire Sweep, however, check it out.
7) Fire Whip is now Burning Edge, encompasses sword and whip
8) Template DCs generally got raised across the board based on eyeballing
9) Blue Fire is in this version (under another name), Flight's back under Burning Rush
10) If we can't come up with more seeds for fire that work, maybe we should consider giving fire a slower seed progression
11) What do you guys think about giving all benders a higher AC? Air Benders would still get a Wis bonus to put them higher. In the space of time that someone's attack bonus increases to around +20 on an initial attack, a Firebender is easily running around with only 21 AC. A meleer that chooses not to power attack is getting a +30 to hit pretty easy. That means an automatic hit on our aforementioned firebender with their first three attacks (excepting a natural 1) and the last is much more likely to hit than not. (Which gives a lot of room for power attack.) Attack does outstrip AC in the base rules as well... but not by that much for classes that are intended to frontline.

Benders aren't glass cannons right now, they're more of a a cracked wine glass. Deadly, but beyond frail. Deflection or not, we know the characters are more evasive than that. The class defense bonus does not improve as much as Armor does, and that's because it has neither a max dex and it is useful against touch... but there's very little that's touch in this setting, so that isn't actually that helpful. No classes are running around with +½ BAB progression and no Str or Dex.

The lack of magical equipment means that the need to ramp up AC isn't as bad - a monk's AC could actually tank in this setting - but there's still equipment that improves to-hit that the benders' enemies can wear (none that a bender could - they need to get a bonus to attack somehow), and attack bonus progresses much faster than the defense bonus, while a bender gains absolutely no benefit to his armor class from anything except a shield.
12) Deflect not done with a bending seed, there's just not enough (at least for firebenders) that really affects deflection. Not sure if that holds true for other benders.
13) Heat Wave gets a boost in power to compensate for all the 5-foot actions this system gives PCs.
14) Incandescence now scales with Fire Blast damage, but its basic use no longer deals damage to objects that aren't low melting point or easily flammable.

Class Abilities

Weapon and Armor Proficiency - A firebender is proficient with all simple weapons, short swords, longswords, glaives and padded, leather, and studded leather armor.

Rise with the Sun - Firebenders draw much of their power from the sun, the ultimate source of fire. During the day, firebenders gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Firebending checks due to the influence of the sun. Additionally, during the passage of a comet near the planet, Firebenders gain an additional +20 circumstance bonus to Firebending checks. However, the close link between the sun and firebending has its drawbacks. During a solar eclipse, firebenders are unable to use any firebending abilities.

Firestorm - Of all the bending disciplines, firebending is the most offensive, truly embodying the belief that the best defense is a good offense. Beginning at 1st level, whenever a firebender spends a full round attacking, he may make an extra attack at his highest base attack bonus. The extra attack may not be used in a Deflect Attack attempt, and the firebender must make at least two Fire Blasts in a turn in order to use this ability. When performing a Firestorm, the firebender takes a -2 penalty to all attacks made that round.

This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the firebender might make before his next action. When a firebender reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. When a firebender reaches 11th level, his Firestorm ability improves to a Greater Firestorm. He now gets an extra attack at his best and second-best base attack bonus. Bonus attacks from Firestorm are typically kicks, as a skilled firebender can make the most of using his upper and lower body at the same time.

Fire Blast
Base DC: 5
The first ability a firebender learns is Fire Blast. The firebender generates fire using the heat inside his body and propels it at great speeds toward his foe using a quick jab with his fist. A basic blast deals 1d6 fire damage (half to non-flammable objects), and is a ranged attack with a reach of 60 feet. A firebender can use a number of blasts in one round equal to the number of iterative attacks he can make (as determined by his BAB). In Wound Point systems, on a critical hit it deals 1 damage per dice plus Wisdom modifier. Unlike most benders, a firebender may substitute a Fire Blast for any melee attack he makes, and bending a Fire Blast does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

As the firebender increases in level, so too does the damage he can deal via Fire Blast.

Other Class Adaptation
The other benders would not gain their wisdom as a bonus to damage on wound points (though they may get some other modifier for VP damage). I recommend melee damage gets a similar system of 1 damage per 2 dice (round up), plus Strength modifier as appropriate for handedness.

Manipulate Fire
Base DC: Varies, see table.
A firebender learns to finely manipulate fire. As a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity, he can create or control a fire according to the table below. He gains the ability to draw fire from any source (including the Firebender’s own body heat) within 60 feet, alter its basic shape, move it around at a rate of 10 feet/move action, and hold it in his hands. Firebenders can warm their tea, create balls of fire to act as torches, or start campfires using this ability. Fire moved using this form deals damage per round depending on its size:

{table=head]Fire Size|Example|Damage|Animated Height or Length|DC
Fine | Tindertwig | 1 | < 5 ft. | 0
Diminutive | Torch | 1d3 | < 5 ft. | 5
Tiny | Small Campfire | 1d6 | 5 ft. | 10
Small | Large Campfire | 2d6 | 10 ft. | 15
Medium | Forge | 3d6 | 15 ft. | 25
Large | Bonfire | 4d6 | 20 ft. | 35
Huge | Burning Shack | 5d6 | 30 ft. | 45
Gargantuan | Burning Tavern | 6d6 | 40 ft. | 55
Colossal | Burning Inn | 7d6 | 55 ft. | 65
Colossal+ | Burning Village | 8d6 | 70 ft. | 80[/table]

Fire of Small size or larger grants concealment on ranged attacks made through it, must be created in its own space, and any creature occupying that space gets a Reflex save to avoid the damage and move into an adjacent space. The bender cannot create a fire where one already exists.

As a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the firebender may increase or decrease the size of the fire by one step, up to that of the largest his bending check allows. However, one round after the firebender ceases to focus on the flames, they begin returning to their natural state as the environment dictates. If the fire is paired with the Explosion template, it gains its size modifier as a bonus to the bull rush (+4 for every size category larger than Medium).

Attempting to quench or control a flame on a highly flammable or volatile substance such as firework powder adds up to a +30 to the effective difficulty class, while trying to expand or maintain a flame under heavy precipitation also adds up to +30 on the Difficulty Class. Expanding a flame on highly flammable substances or quenching one that is being doused gives you up to a +15 circumstance bonus to your bending check.

If you focus on a creature caught on fire, the normal DC 15 Reflex Saving Throw is replaced by a standard bending saving throw (10+½Class Level+Wis) and you may increase the damage as you wish.

For every 5 points the firebender increases the Base DC, the speed of the animated fire improves by 5 feet.

Improved Unarmed Strike - A firebender gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at second level.

Deflect Attack - Early in their training, firebenders learn to block or deflect attacks directed at them and their companions. As an immediate action, the firebender may make an opposed attack roll to deflect a single ranged attack that would otherwise strike him or an ally within 30 feet. The firebender may choose to deflect an attack after they have found out the result of the attack roll. Because of fire's insubstantial nature and offensive outlook, firebenders take a -4 penalty on this opposed attack roll.

Additionally, a firebender has the option of reserving iterative attacks in order to gain more Deflect Attack attempts. Whenever he makes a full-round attack, a firebender may choose to forego any number of his iterative attacks, gaining a number of additional Deflect Attack attempts equal to the number of attacks the firebender reserved. The firebender's number of Deflect attempts is limited solely by his extra attacks granted by Base Attack Bonus. Additional attacks, such as those rewarded by Firestorm, Flurry of Blows, or Haste cannot be used to deflect attacks. Deflect Attack attempts past the first do not require further immediate actions, and can be used any time during the round, even when it is not the firebender's turn. All Deflect Attack rolls are subject to the same bonuses and penalties as a standard ranged attack roll, including the usual penalty to iterative attacks.

This ability cannot be used when the firebender is caught flat-footed.

Firebending Seeds

Burning Edge
Base DC: 10
• Applications: A firebender may, as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, form a long, narrow tongue of fire. This weapon has all the statistics of a shortsword with the exception that it deals 1d6 fire damage. Additionally, a firebender may treat it as a normal shortsword for purposes of weapon-based feats, although they may not trip or disarm (or be disarmed) with this weapon as it is made of fire and thus insubstantial. Firebenders are considered proficient with these weapons, even if they are not proficient with normal shortswords. The weapon only lasts for one round, although the firebender can choose to maintain it every round afterwards at the original DC as a swift action. If the weapon ever leaves the firebender's hand, it immediately dissipates.

For every 10 points the firebender increases the Base DC, the sword increases damage as though it is one size category larger. This can be done indefinitely.

By increasing the Base DC by 5, he may opt to either increase the weapon's reach by 5 ft or, instead, to create and maintain a second, identical weapon in his other hand. The firebender may not simultaneously gain the benefit of both characteristics.

Burning Rush
Base DC: Varies
The speed and tenacity of the element of a true firebender are seldom seen, simply because such power is the last thing most opponents see.
• Speed (Base DC 10): By expelling flames from the soles of his feet, a firebender thrusts himself forward recklessly. The bender increases his base land speed by 5 feet and Jump skill check by +5 (these are circumstance bonuses). This does not give the bender any form of movement that he does not already possess. Initiating this form is a swift action that provokes no attacks of opportunity and a free action to maintain; however, the bender can only maintain it for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier, minimum one.

For every 5 points that the firebender exceeds the Base DC (after all template and quickening modifiers), he gains an additional +5 circumstance bonus to his speed and Jump check.

• Flight (Base DC 45): The firebender causes intense flames to burst from his feet, propelling him through the air. Using this seed, a firebender gains a fly speed of 50 ft with clumsy maneuverability. This form is initiated as a move action and maintained as a swift action, for a maximum number of rounds equal to the firebender’s Wisdom modifier.

For every 5 points that the firebender increases the Base DC (after all template and quickening modifiers), he gains an additional +5 circumstance bonus to his speed.

For every 5 points that the firebender increases the Base DC (after all template and quickening modifiers), the firebender can increase his maneuverability by one step. (Clumsy -> Poor -> Average -> Good -> Perfect)

Fire Sweep (Template)
Base DC: +10
The firebender uses aggressive spinning motions to create a cone of energy.
• Applications: The bender turns the attack into a 15-ft cone, affecting all creatures and objects therein. Due to the wide, unfocused nature of these attacks, a Fire Sweep deals 1 less damage per die. Creatures and attended objects within this area take half damage on a successful Reflex save. This template can be applied to any form which targets an object or creature besides the bender, but not to any form which already targets an area.

Incandescence
Base DC: Varies
What's your boiling point?
• Heat Substance (Base DC 10): As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the firebender can heat an object within sixty feet. On the first round this form is used, the object becomes warm and uncomfortable to touch but deals no damage. During the second round, intense heat causes damage equal to half the firebender's Fire Blast damage. In subsequent rounds, the metal is searing hot, dealing damage equal to the firebender's Fire Blast. This damage does not affect the object itself unless it is particularly flammable or easy to melt. Flammable substances do not light until they have lost all HP.

Attended objects get a Reflex save to avoid damage; if they make their Reflex Save they take no damage and the firebender's next use of the ability has to start over from scratch.

• Melt Substance (Base DC 35): Often used by canny Fire Nation soldiers in the mountains to discourage enemy forces, a firebender can heat up stone and other materials to the point of melting into liquid lava. A firebender can affect one 5-foot cube of non-flammable material as the Heat Substance use of this form, above. Once the cube has taken 20 damage from the use of this form, it begins to melt, dealing damage as lava or boiling water as appropriate.

Attended objects cannot be affected by this use of the form.

For every 5 points that the firebender exceeds the Base DC (after all template and quickening modifiers), a firebender can affect one additional 5-foot cube.

Lingering Flames (Template)
Base DC: +15
Though a fast defeat is the usual way of firebending, sometimes lingering damage can get the job done more efficiently.
• Applications: If a firebender successfully affects a target with a firebending attack (either by a successful attack roll or a failed save), the target catches on fire.

Farflame (Template)
Base DC: +15
By using quick and powerful motions to propel his firebending, a firebender can greatly increase the range and power of his abilities.
• Applications: Applying this template to a firebending form increases the firebender's effective range for the purpose of that form by 30 feet. If the form ordinarily does not have a range but is centered on the bender instead, he may choose a square up to 30 feet away as the origin point of the form.

For every 10 points the firebender increases the Base DC, he increases the range by another increment.

Explosion (Template)
Base DC: +15
Rather than simply burning her opponents to a crisp, firebenders often seek to earn a strategic advantage in positioning.
• Applications: Through this template, a firebender may initiate a bull rush through his flame attacks, adding his Wisdom modifier as a bonus to his Strength roll. The bender is not limited by their movement speed, nor do they fall prone if they fail to beat the opponent's check result. If the blast moves the opponent back more than ten feet, the opponent must make a Reflex save or be knocked prone. These effects only apply to moving flames, such as a Fire Blast, or an animated fire.

Additionally, by turning his fire into a forceful explosion, a firebender can deal full damage to even non-flammable objects when firebending, and deals double damage to flammable objects. This template can be applied to any form which targets an object or creature besides the bender.

For every 5 points that the firebender exceeds the Base DC (after all template and quickening modifiers), he gains an additional +2 bonus to his Bull Rush check.

Fire in the Stomach
Base DC: 15
Firebending is all about breath control; applying this properly allows a firebender incredible resilience to harsh outer environments, and allows him to manage his energy in amazing ways.
• Applications: As a full-round action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, a firebender can take a deep breath and hold it for a number of rounds equal to 5 times his Constitution score. While holding his breath this way, a firebender maintains his body temperature at normal levels and is immune to nonlethal damage by exposure to intemperate environments. The firebender may choose to end this form early; if so, he gains his twice his Constitution modifier as a bonus to his next firebending check made within the same round. If the firebender was fatigued, this form allows him to ignore its penalties; however, if he is made fatigued again before getting an hour of rest, he instead becomes exhausted. After letting out his breath, a firebender cannot use this form for at least five minutes.

For every point by which the Firebending check exceeds the DC, the firebender holds his breath one additional round.

For every 10 points the firebender increases the Base DC, he may use this form again one minute sooner.

Breath of the Dragon (Template)
Base DC: +20
Firebending is all about breath control, and a clever bender knows that every part of his body is a weapon. Put two and two together, and...
• Applications: A firebender can do any form without using somatic components and without provoking attacks of opportunity, as long as the bender’s mouth or nose is free and not gagged or otherwise hindered from opening. The form is performed as a stream of fire from the bender’s mouth, a burst of steam from the bender's nose, or any other appropriate description. This template can be applied to any form which targets an object or creature besides the bender and does not already have a template specifying a different body part.

Fire Burst (Template)
Base DC: +20
With a flash of light and a whirl of fire, a firebender can ignite everything around him in a blazing display.
• Applications: As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, a firebender creates a whirlwind of fire, extending in a 5-foot radius around him. (Fire Burst cannot be used as part of a full attack or attack action, even if the base form could.) All creatures and objects in the area are affected by the base form. Creatures and attended objects within the area take half damage on a successful Reflex save. This template can be applied to any form which targets an object or creature besides the bender, but not to any form which already targets an area.

For every 5 points the firebender increases the Base DC, the radius of the attack increases by 5 feet.

Flamethrower (Template)
Base DC: +25
Truly, the paragon of the stereotypical firebender, this seed channels the internal heat of a bender through the palm of his hands to create a huge outpouring of flames.
• Applications: As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, a firebender affects all creatures or objects in a 5-foot-wide, 60-foot-long line with the base form. (Flamethrower cannot be used as part of a full attack or attack action, even if the base form could.) Due to the intense nature of these attacks, a Flamethrower deals twice as much damage as the base form (+100%). Creatures and attended objects caught within the line take half damage on a successful Reflex save. This template can be applied to any form which targets an object or creature besides the bender, but not to any form which already targets an area.

Heat Wave (Template)
Base DC: +25
Even the most agile of opponents gets worn down under a firebender's assault if they don't know when to move, as the air itself begins to heat up.
• Applications: For the next round, anyone who ends their turn in a square that you targeted with Heat Wave must make a Fortitude save or become fatigued for the duration of the encounter. (It will not make them exhausted, however.) If applied to a standing fire or a fire burning on a creature, Heat Wave afflicts anyone damaged by the fire who fails their Fortitude save that round.

Focus Fire (Template)
Base DC: +35
The Firebender has mastered exceptionally intense flames. (At DM's option, they may be specially colored.)
• Applications: Damage dice for firebending forms using this seed increase by one step (for example, from d6 to d8, or d4 to d6).

Pyrotechnics (Template)
Base DC: +35
By learning to change the color and brightness of his flame, the firebender can awe and blind her opponents.
• Applications: Your flames dance in bright dazzling colors. Anyone targeted by a flame with this form is dazzled for the rest of the encounter, and must make a Fortitude Save or become blinded for 1d4 rounds.

Anyone who can see a flame affected by this form must make a Will save or become fascinated with it. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 30 feet. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, bending offensively, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is a mind-affecting ability.

Cold Fire
Base DC: 50
As all masters of the bending disciplines must understand, all things are made up of the four elements, and the power of the mighty lightning bolt can be harnessed by a firebender with sufficient inner balance.
• Application: Creating cold fire involves separating the positive and negative energies of the element of fire, releasing a huge amount of power as they join suddenly together again. As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you make a ranged attack against the target, at a -5 penalty. This attack deals 1d8 electrical damage per character level, and any bender attempting to deflect Cold Fire takes their usual penalties and another -15 due to the incredible speed and focus of cold fire. If the attack hits, it is automatically considered a critical strike, and the victim must also make a Fortitude Save or become paralyzed for one round. This form cannot be quickened, and the attack is lost if you are struck while bending it, as an exception to the usual rule.

Note
All firebending abilities set fire to combustibles and damage objects they affect, but usually not creatures. Natural fire deals 1d6 points of fire damage per round. A creature who catches on fire can make a DC 15 Reflex save each round to extinguish the fire. Being lit on fire is distracting for difficult tasks like bending; when appropriate, a target caught on fire must make a Concentration check equal to the Reflex DC (usually 15) to extinguish the flame, or she fails to bend or cast defensively. Failure means that you still successfully complete the action, but provoke an attack of opportunity for doing so. Dousing the fire with water or smothering it automatically extinguishes the fire.

How much fire fire firebender fire if firebender fire fire?