Final Fantasy twelve, is it good?

[EvilElitest]

Right, i just got my sister Final Fantasy 12 for christmas and i just started my own final an i want to know, is is a good game. I'm in the palace so i'm not that fair but currently i love the politcal situation and hate the main character (boring, clieche, uninteresting) and the female character (nothing of interest) but i do rather like the city and the whole conquest scope of things, but the combat situation really annoys me however. What do other people think of it, i've heard some really mixed things? Good game, bad game, total crap what?

Note, favorite final fantasy games, tatics, tatics advanced and FF6. FFII was pretty good as well
from
EE

[Sneak]

It's pretty good/okay. Don't expect anything like FF6, though. It's one of the best FFs in my opinion, but it's still a solid game that you'll probably have fun playing. Definitely not great in my opinion, but definitely not bad either.

And yeah, Vaan gets on my nerves. According to Wikipedia the main character was originally intended to be Basch, but they apparently felt that they had to make the main character a whiny effeminate prettyboy with nothing useful to say to reach their target demographic. So they did.

[Keris]

I enjoyed FFXII when I played it, but that doesn't help you much.
About characters: what did you expect "Main character" and "Love intrest" to be like? Luckily you can chop and change your party, even ignoring the main character. Just wait till you get a pirate, a knight and a bunnygirl together.
As for combat, what part don't you like? The gambit system makes things easier, to the point where by the end of the game all you need to do is walk the party to an enemy, then they kill it by themselves.

[EvilElitest]

I enjoyed FFXII when I played it, but that doesn't help you much.
About characters: what did you expect "Main character" and "Love intrest" to be like? Luckily you can chop and change your party, even ignoring the main

Umm, how about a main character who isn't an effeminte whiny pretty boy and has some depth? Or a girl who has a freaking personality. Just because it is easy to make pathetic characters doesn't mean you should.
How interesting would the game be if the main character was a well educated smpathizer and the female was, well anything with a personality. But ignoring the main character (i'm not yelling at you by the way).



. Just wait till you get a pirate, a knight and a bunnygirl together.
As for combat, what part don't you like? The gambit system makes things easier, to the point where by the end of the game all you need to do is walk the party to an enemy, then they kill it by themselves.
1. I'm swooning with joy
2. Meh, i am not a fan of turn based but a turn based free form, just really isn't me. I ether want normal turn based, as annoying as it is, or free form letting me fight tatically
from
EE

[Rutee]

Why are people treating Vaan like the Main Character? He's the Face Character that you walk around as, sure, but Ashe was the lead. Trust me, once she and Balthier are in Vaan is more like the comic relief then anything.

[Veridian]

The game's not bad (though the only character I really liked was Balthier, in a sort of james bond sort of way), but you may find you need to do a lot of wandering around randomly chaining monsters to get strong enough to progress the plot (which can be a bit on the dull side).

The other downer, is the gambit system. It's good, and it's bad. It's good because trying to play without it, would be really hard. It's bad because it mostly devolves to just holding the control stick in the direction of the baddies, then watching the fight as if it were a cinematic. With occasional button presses when necessary.

Other than that, it was pretty good.

[EvilElitest]

Why are people treating Vaan like the Main Character? He's the Face Character that you walk around as, sure, but Ashe was the lead. Trust me, once she and Balthier are in Vaan is more like the comic relief then anything.

Eh? I hope so, Vaan is annoying. Just met the James Bond dude, i hope he is interesting. Only question, why didn't he kill Vaan, because that would be amazing
from
EE

[Sneak]

Because he's not evil? :P

Anyway, yes, Balthier is the best character. And Rutee: that's technically true, but the character that you play as is just generally considered the main character/protagonist of the game.

[Veridian]

Because then you'd be missing the 'generic japanese man-meat' party member?

It's ok though, Vaan has little influence regarding the actual plot anyway. Just kick him out of your party when you get the chance and he'll only show up occasionally to be stupid in a few cutscenes :smallamused:

[EvilElitest]

Because he's not evil? :P


Even then, he was holding hte Super stone and trying to run away, i would have just taken the stone and left him
But yeah, i'm just going to ditch him
from
EE

[Keris]

EE, if your looking to be persuaded that a game you don't like is any good, the I'm out. My arguments would be as weak as the character developement, partly because it's 3:00AM for me. The game isn't brilliant, and if you try it and don't like it, then don't bother playing anymore.
A couple more things about the game that didn't work, everyone's a red mage. They can all learn every spell, at the same rate as each other. You've also probably ruined your chance at getting the games best weapon.

[EvilElitest]

EE, if your looking to be persuaded that a game you don't like is any good, the I'm out. My arguments would be as weak as the character developement, partly because it's 3:00AM for me. The game isn't brilliant, and if you try it and don't like it, then don't bother playing anymore.
A couple more things about the game that didn't work, everyone's a red mage. They can all learn every spell, at the same rate as each other. You've also probably ruined your chance at getting the games best weapon.

No i'll still play it, but what do you mean by the best weapon?


Oh i love your quote, "Screw the rules i have Green hair"
"Hmmm, that was just weird"

from
EE

[Obrysii]

I enjoy it - and Balthier is probably among the most entertaining characters I've seen in a final fantasy game (although, granted, I've only played the FF3 remake, FF10, parts of FF8, and of course FF12 ...).

[Eita]

The best weapon is the Zodiac Spear. There are two ways to get it. One way is impossible unless you don't open four chests in different areas, one of which is the palace. I forgot the other way.

[EvilElitest]

The best weapon is the Zodiac Spear. There are two ways to get it. One way is impossible unless you don't open four chests in different areas, one of which is the palace. I forgot the other way.

What areas?
from
EE

[Eldritch_Ent]

The other way boils down to literally a .01 percent chance or something. Not fun. Poor design choice on their part.

However, I for one think the Gambit system is great. It's not 'Automatic Gaming" like some people say- it's merely "Assisted Gaming". You set the Gambits to what you'd do yourself, and instead of having to pause every 2 seconds to input the command, the game handles it for you. If you want to play it straight up turn-based, that's fine- Gambit system is just a really helpful tool. :)

Plus, you can't always run around with just one configuration and hope to win, unless you're at the end of the game and have six Zodiac Spears or something. You'll find yourself tweaking your gambits throughout the game as you get new levels, gear, spells, gambits, licenses and enemies to face.

My main suggestion is to have your party split up into different parts of the License grid and beeline towards Mist Knacks. The double/triple MP is extremely useful, and the mist things are super powerful in and of themselves. Plus if you do that you'll start off with a nicely diversified party. :) (Although everyone should take Accesories for the Double LP and double XP accesories.)

[Veridian]

They designed it in such a way, that the only way you'd know for sure how to get the zodiac spear without wasting time trying to grind for one stupid chest with a miniscule chance to drop it, is buy purchasing the official guide.

Now, if you're a completionist and you MUST have this on your first playthrough, I suggest you check gamefaqs or another similar site, you should be able to find the info you need there.

If not? Well, you don't actually need the spear anyway. It's good, but not so overwhelmingly good that you can't get anywhere without it. And I still prefer the high-end katanas anyway.

I agree though, initially you want to pick a path for each character. Don't bother with a black mage though, the spells really aren't all that good in my opinion. Yes, you can exploit some weaknesses on some opponents, but you'll only end up frustrated with the delay (ie, when you're casting Curaja on your party, no other spells, friend or foe, go off until the animation's done.). I suggest initially you have one melee fighter, one archer or gunner, and one white mage. Have the white mage shoot for the mist abilities closest to him/her as you'll want the extra mp. The fighter should focus mostly into the stat increasing part of the board, only getting licenses for the weapons and armor you have available.

The ranged character? Well, they can be the utility character. Guns ignore defence anyway, so you don't have to worry too much about their hit power vs tough foes.

[EvilElitest]

They designed it in such a way, that the only way you'd know for sure how to get the zodiac spear without wasting time trying to grind for one stupid chest with a miniscule chance to drop it, is buy purchasing the official guide.

Now, if you're a completionist and you MUST have this on your first playthrough, I suggest you check gamefaqs or another similar site, you should be able to find the info you need there.

If not? Well, you don't actually need the spear anyway. It's good, but not so overwhelmingly good that you can't get anywhere without it. And I still prefer the high-end katanas anyway.

alright, most likely isn't worth the trouble
from
EE

[Sneak]

I thought it was some random crate that if you opened, you couldn't get the weapon, not that you had to get four special crates.

I may be wrong though.

Yep, probably wrong. :P

[Setra]

Alright I'll put it this way.

The gameplay overall had potential, but it's unrefined. The gambits, while helpful, can also be confusing. You run out of magic way too fast, unless you get all three of your Limits (Myst Knacks or whatever).

The story is alright, and if you can put up with the gameplay it can even be fun overall. My recommendation is to restart the game and use the power leveling strategies found throughout the internet to get everyone to level 40 in a few hours, then you can breeze through the game until you get to the second power leveling point.

Then you should get to level 80 or so (takes some time, try going to sleep and leaving it on), then you can finish the game with ease (I beat the final boss with no weapons or armor just to see if I could)

[Jayngfet]

meh, I liked the old combat system, and after you get things straigtned out with the whole reks thing vaan and penelo seem like comic relief, fran kinda talked like a robot.

on the other hand most of the other characters are better, fran had depth so she was tolerable, ashe had misconceptions about her marriage, hell even the NPC's were better than Vaan and penelo, check the wikipedia article, you'd think that as the first 2(barring balthier) PC's out there they wouldn't degenerate into comic relief.

However the voice acting WAS better than 10, Vaan did have an emotional range broader than Squall and it did have bunnygirls in clawed high heels.

on gameplay I could see liking this game system if I play it more, but I could usually get away with substituting white magic with potions, freeing up a few gambits

[EvilElitest]

Alright I'll put it this way.

The gameplay overall had potential, but it's unrefined. The gambits, while helpful, can also be confusing. You run out of magic way too fast, unless you get all three of your Limits (Myst Knacks or whatever).

The story is alright, and if you can put up with the gameplay it can even be fun overall. My recommendation is to restart the game and use the power leveling strategies found throughout the internet to get everyone to level 40 in a few hours, then you can breeze through the game until you get to the second power leveling point.

Then you should get to level 80 or so (takes some time, try going to sleep and leaving it on), then you can finish the game with ease (I beat the final boss with no weapons or armor just to see if I could)

wait, what this about level grinding?
from
EE

[Veridian]

Basically, for the lazy people who can't be bothered to grind later, you can do it at the start of the game...

Again, you'd have to look up the trick, and it kinda takes the point out of the first half of the game when you just blow it away, imho <_<

Basically it revolves around getting many phoenix downs, and having Vaan by himself chain this specific rare enemy while abusing a glitch to have said rare enemy keep spawning when it shouldn't. If you do that you can have Vaan at lvl 40 in an hour or two, with a potentially large profit margin. Everyone has their lvl based off Vaan's when they join, I believe..

[EvilElitest]

Basically, for the lazy people who can't be bothered to grind later, you can do it at the start of the game...

Again, you'd have to look up the trick, and it kinda takes the point out of the first half of the game when you just blow it away, imho <_<

Basically it revolves around getting many phoenix downs, and having Vaan by himself chain this specific rare enemy while abusing a glitch to have said rare enemy keep spawning when it shouldn't. If you do that you can have Vaan at lvl 40 in an hour or two, with a potentially large profit margin. Everyone has their lvl based off Vaan's when they join, I believe..

Wow that is cheap.......i might do it myself though
from
EE

[Rutee]

Oh, don't worry about Vaan being annoying. His lines dwindle rapidly as the game progresses, with Balthier and Ashe taking center stage. At least, IIRC.

[Veridian]

I thought it was more revolving around Basch and Ashe myself...

[BizzaroStormy]

Considering I paid $50 for my copy, I say it was a waste. First off is that they completely took away the random battle mechanic. Then theres the way the gear works. Having to get liscenses to be able to use gear is just stupid. Same goes for spells and abilities. The huge amount of random useless items was also kind of a downer.

[EvilElitest]

Oh, don't worry about Vaan being annoying. His lines dwindle rapidly as the game progresses, with Balthier and Ashe taking center stage. At least, IIRC.

Alright, that is great sigh of belief


Why can't a FF game have an Edward Elric sort of character? You know, an extremly intellegent, quick witted, cynical, pessimistic, cold, and rather insulting hero? Though intellegent characters in FF might say something like this

"Why the F**k am i using a sword when we have freaking guns?"

Also, this license system, how is it?
from
EE

[Rutee]

Considering I paid $50 for my copy, I say it was a waste. First off is that they completely took away the random battle mechanic. Then theres the way the gear works. Having to get liscenses to be able to use gear is just stupid. Same goes for spells and abilities. The huge amount of random useless items was also kind of a downer.

I can't argue whether something isn't fun for you, but the random useless items were vendor trash. Instead of having monsters give you money directly (Because what's a plant doing carrying 3000 gil?), they just dropped items worth money. I can't really see how that would be a bad (Or good) thing.


"Why the F**k am i using a sword when we have freaking guns?"

Also, this license system, how is it?
from
"Because the sword hits harder."

The license system is pretty interestesting. On the one hand, it can be limitting, since you can only use what you bought the licenses for. On the other, it lets you customize each character's growth, so you pick who's the mage, warrior, etc, in your party. Also, the MP Recoverry Licenses are core, and you should probably have everyone pick them up. It's helpful if you're the type to have everyone handle their own buffs.

[EvilElitest]

I can't argue whether something isn't fun for you, but the random useless items were vendor trash. Instead of having monsters give you money directly (Because what's a plant doing carrying 3000 gil?), they just dropped items worth money. I can't really see how that would be a bad (Or good) thing.

Rutte, don't you know anything? All "wolves" who resember a sick mix of evil demon cat and a machine (WFT)always carry tiny handbag that they fill with gil in case a group of adventurers show up trying to kill them. Duh, sounds like you've been living in a realistic sort of world. Gods, how silly:smalltongue:


"Because the sword hits harder."
But, it doesn't, it just, it doesn't, it fails to....



The license system is pretty interestesting. On the one hand, it can be limitting, since you can only use what you bought the licenses for. On the other, it lets you customize each character's growth, so you pick who's the mage, warrior, etc, in your party. Also, the MP Recoverry Licenses are core, and you should probably have everyone pick them up. It's helpful if you're the type to have everyone handle their own buffs.


thanks
from
EE

[Setra]

Oh, don't worry about Vaan being annoying. His lines dwindle rapidly as the game progresses, with Balthier and Ashe taking center stage. At least, IIRC.

I thought it was more revolving around Basch and Ashe myself...In order of Story importance it goes

Ashe
Balthier~Basch
Larsa
Fran
Penelo
Vayne
Pretty much everyone else
Vaan

Why can't a FF game have an Edward Elric sort of character? You know, an extremly intellegent, quick witted, cynical, pessimistic, cold, and rather insulting hero? Though intellegent characters in FF might say something like this

Also, this license system, how is it?
from
EE
You mean Squall?

The License system is interesting, but in the end every character is a nigh carbon copy of the others (with minor statistical differences)

And unlike previous Final Fantasy games, even the limits do the exact same thing, all level 1 limits have the same power as all other level 1 limits, and so on. So the ONLY difference is statistical.

[Veridian]

Wait, Penelo had involvement in the plot?

I must have missed something...

[EvilElitest]

You mean Squall?

I said intellegent
from
EE

[BizzaroStormy]

Big Wall of Text
Thats understandable but having to kill 6-10 enemies fo a single potion just seems like a bad idea.

Also I just didn't like the whole new combat system. Mainly I dislike relying on an AI. The old timed system was just fine, especially the one in FFX which let you know who's turn would be when. Also I noticed that in the amount I played there were no summons, is this true for the rest of the game?

[Setra]

I said intellegent
from
EE
Squall was pretty intelligent. Most like even smarter than Ed, as most of what Ed knows has to do with Alchemy and pretty much just Alchemy.

Wait, Penelo had involvement in the plot?

I must have missed something...
Well that list was more like (Story importance + Character development) Penelo played a small role in the plot (Mostly just because she knew Larsa) but it was still bigger than Vaan's (Who pretty much loses all importance in the plot once you go to that one village south of the Giza Plains).

Either way she had a decent bit of character development in my opinion as well.

...Or I just like Penelo, I dunno.

Edit:

Thats understandable but having to kill 6-10 enemies fo a single potion just seems like a bad idea.

Also I just didn't like the whole new combat system. Mainly I dislike relying on an AI. The old timed system was just fine, especially the one in FFX which let you know who's turn would be when. Also I noticed that in the amount I played there were no summons, is this true for the rest of the game?There are summons.

But they suck for the most part. The earlier ones are alright but the summons never really get any stronger, plus they take whole charge bars to summon, AND they dismiss two of your allies. It's usually not worth it.

The later ones are much stronger.. but by the time you get the good ones... you're already strong to the point they're still useless.

[Rutee]

Thats understandable but having to kill 6-10 enemies fo a single potion just seems like a bad idea.

Also I just didn't like the whole new combat system. Mainly I dislike relying on an AI. The old timed system was just fine, especially the one in FFX which let you know who's turn would be when. Also I noticed that in the amount I played there were no summons, is this true for the rest of the game?

Very untrue. Summons are /definitely/ in there. I tend to use them on Elementals :P

[EvilElitest]

Squall was pretty intelligent. Most like even smarter than Ed, as most of what Ed knows has to do with Alchemy and pretty much just Alchemy.


Squall is the dude with the gunblade right? Yeah, he didn't strike me as very smart, way to angsty in a copying Cloud sort of way (though granted he was smarter than cloud) . Ed is genre savvy and posses a lot of common sense, as well as being able to figure things out.
from
EE

[SilentNight]

Penelo was ment to be Vaan's straight man for lack of a better term. She also allowed Larsa to be a protagonist. You'll notice three duo's in the Party of six. 1.Balthier & Fran, duh. 2. Basch & Ashe, less duh than the first but it's pretty obvious. 3. Vaan & Penelo. Since she has little other bearing I gues they just added he to round out the story.

[EvilElitest]

Penelo was ment to be Vaan's straight man for lack of a better term. She also allowed Larsa to be a protagonist. You'll notice three duo's in the Party of six. 1.Balthier & Fran, duh. 2. Basch & Ashe, less duh than the first but it's pretty obvious. 3. Vaan & Penelo. Since she has little other bearing I gues they just added he to round out the story.

Well duh, they need to have a generic female character
from
EE

[Setra]

Squall is the dude with the gunblade right? Yeah, he didn't strike me as very smart, way to angsty in a copying Cloud sort of way (though granted he was smarter than cloud) . Ed is genre savvy and posses a lot of common sense, as well as being able to figure things out.
from
EE
He was smarter than people gave him credit for, but I will admit he didn't seem to be very 'wise', but that' why Intelligence and Wisdom tend to be seperate stats.

[EvilElitest]

He was smarter than people gave him credit for, but I will admit he didn't seem to be very 'wise', but that' why Intelligence and Wisdom tend to be seperate stats.

He was also humorless, no sense of being genre savy. Or very book smart
What ever
from
EE

[Setra]

He was also humorless, no sense of being genre savy. Or very book smart
What ever
from
EE
It's implied in the game he is very booksmart, however.

Humorless has nothing to do with intelligence, and I've never seen evidence Ed is genre savvy either.

[EvilElitest]

It's implied in the game he is very booksmart, however.

Humorless has nothing to do with intelligence, and I've never seen evidence Ed is genre savvy either.

1. Does he accually do stuff that is book smart
2. Humor is always nice to have when mixed with intellegence when one is already kinda angsty.
3. In the the two different stories EE (hey, he stole my nickname) is able to be away of Scar, the Homunclia, Evil Priest, and the terrorist corny nature. He also often makes cracks about how overdone other people. He is pretty cynical actually, double so in the manga
from
EE

[Setra]

1. Does he accually do stuff that is book smart
2. Humor is always nice to have when mixed with intellegence when one is already kinda angsty.
3. In the the two different stories EE (hey, he stole my nickname) is able to be away of Scar, the Homunclia, Evil Priest, and the terrorist corny nature. He also often makes cracks about how overdone other people. He is pretty cynical actually, double so in the manga
from
EE
1. Yes, he is able to make decent plans if nothing else, and was able to order his troops fairly effectively during the Garden Battle
2. He isn't even as Angsty as Cloud, heck I wouldn't really call him angsty at all, just humorless, and stiff. Well for the first half anyways, then Rinoa makes him angsty, but he gets over it fairly quickly.
3. That doesn't make him genre savvy.. really you can't be genre savvy in FMA as FMA doesn't really have a genre to be savvy of. In any case genre savvyness doesn't really denote intelligence.

[Veridian]

There are summons in FF12, and while they are extremely awesome-looking, they're actually horrificly useless.

Although, as a tip. If you want to rock with a summon, give the very first one you aquire to someone in your party (NOT fran, if you're using her), and summon him against the first boss you face after getting it.

That's about the only time I ever got a summon to kick booty. And a good job too, I'd managed to burn all my potions out on the battle before it, the first time I went through...

[Rutee]

No, I'm pretty sure Ed's not that genre savvy. And yes, Squall is intelligent. This doesn't make him less of a brooding, whiny bitch half the time, and socially inept the other half, but he's pretty quick on the uptake. I recall him intuiting a lot of things with relative ease. Relatively. But it's been a while, so.

And Summons rock the Cazbah on Elementals. Not as much as a Quickening spam, but they're more fun for me

[Alex Kidd]

I like FF12, Vaan doesn't get much screentime past the beginning, I found the combat fun, the freedom right from the start via warp crystals was a nice change from FF(and a great relief from FFX's straight path, no detours, no sidequests til the very end) and I liked the story.

It had several things other than the system that were refreshing changes from the other FFs, the male leads were badasses (Basch the tough kind, Balthier the magnificent bastard) and Ashe was nicely atypical for a FF heroine in that she was cold and regal rather than an emotional schoolgirl. Also for once guns are a viable and good weapon until the very end of the secret bosses, and them being weaker than swords is justified by them not being magic and them being very primitive guns. Personally I never got into the summons myself though.

[Ne0]

I really liked the new battle system. It gave some flexibility, without changing too much about the 'FF style'.
The story was nice, especially the opening scenes with the battle. I couldn't help thinking 'Star Wars' sometimes, though. It couldn't really beat some of the older games, such as FF6, but as always, you buy it because you know it'll be a quality game. I didn't like Vaan though. He seemed a bit boring sometimes. I don't think he was too well thought out.
The only thing that I was really disappointed in was the 'mini game'. It didn't really particularlily spark my interest - hurray, extra boss fights?

All in all, a better game than most out there recently, but average in the FF series.

Favorite characters: Bash, Balthier, Ashe.

Also: Fran? What the hell? A bad Playboy pun or something?

[Traker]

ya i to like bash he is cool

[banjo1985]

Meh, FF12 is decent, but compared to 8,9, and 10 it's quite dissapoiting.

The combat system is an interesting idea that doesn't really work due to dodgy AI, though I'm sure it would work better on a new console. The story starts off quite well but trails off fairly quickly into the following:

Go to new area.
Kill stuff.
Get to next area.
Kill more stuff.

I'm sorry, but fighting isn't enough to keep me interested. FFX had the best FF combat system, and I really hope they go back to that.

[Hunter Noventa]

I'm sorry, but fighting isn't enough to keep me interested. FFX had the best FF combat system, and I really hope they go back to that.

From what I've seen of FF13...not much chance of that.

But aside from what's been mentioned, the gmae is pretty fun. Namely the way that there are only a few artificial barriers keeping you out of areas and that you can wander freely if you're strong enough.

I really do love the airship designs too.

[JadedDM]

Squall wasn't so smart. He had a really hot teacher hitting on him in the first part of the game, and he was oblivious.

But anyway...true story: Basch was supposed to be the main character of FF12. But SE was afraid a masculine main hero would not appeal to their fans. They attribute the poor sales of Vagrant Story to this (that the main character was, essentially, not girly enough). So they tossed Vaan in for that reason alone. If you play through the whole game, it becomes more and more apparent as things progress that Vaan (and Penelo) are just 'along for the ride' and you begin to ask why they are even there to begin with. That's why.

Personally, I think that's retarded. I have never heard anyone state they like Vaan over Basch. Everyone likes Basch. I can't believe SE would be that stupid to think he would be unpopular as a lead because he's actually masculine...

[Pagz]

Yeah, I can't believe he didn't go for Quistis, IMO the best female in the FF series.

I got FF12, but in the end got bored and never finished it, it just didn't hold my attention like the others did, just had something missing that made a FF game great. The combat system felt too much like an MMO, which is part of the reason why I lost interest.

I'll probably get shot down for this, but I thought FFX-2 had the best combat system. A hybrid of that system couped with materia and equiptment from FF7 would make an excellent battle.

[Pandapop]

The sequel to FF XII is FF XII: Revenant Wings for the DS. Its very fun, Vaan seems to stop being so stupid, and Penelo has character! Although it is very kiddy and nobody ever dies, you still meet Ashe, Basch, Balthier, and Fran. Also Kytes is a main character.

[Jerthanis]

I liked FFXII less than any other FF game I've played (excepting FF1, which was worse), and I'm not even a fan of the FF series. I admit to not playing FF3, or FF4 though, they might be terrible and I might not notice.

I felt cheated by the gambit system... FFX had finally made the FF turn based battles fun and tactical, almost like the Grandia battle system (which is still the greatest RPG battle system yet made)... and then they decided "RPG battles are boring, so let's work to eliminate the player from the equation as best we can... while forcing the player to grind monsters more than any RPG ever made before this, including the grind-tastic Dragon Quest series." and thought that was a good idea. Adding to this is the license system, which at first makes your characters different and unique, spreading out like special flowers. Eventually though, you run out of things to spend license points on and everyone has the same maxed out license grid, and the only thing diversifying them is their equipment choices. The fact that this happens less than halfway through the game is immensely frustrating.

The characters are largely worthless, even Ashe, Basche and Balthier were largely pointless characters, walking around and bumping into the plot almost by accident. Ashe's goals are annoyingly simple, and her singular motivation is annoyingly straightforward. Basche seems amazingly cool when you first meet him... sort of a Man in the Iron Mask meets Sir Galahad, but as the game progresses he has less involvement in what is going on, and serves as little more than muscle for the princess' ambitions. Balthier seemed cool, and may have developed into a more interesting character after I got stuck and stopped playing, but I was about 60 hours in and he was still being pointlessly enigmatic, and vaguely sarcastic as his only character attributes.

The plot, which is a much vaunted aspect of the game, quickly grows confused with itself, whether it wants to be a game of political strife and manipulation, or whether it's another "Gather the seven keys to prevent the end of the world" plot. Moreso, the political manipulation basically serves to mean that everything you do from the first hour of the game until the 40th are actions that serve the purposes of the empire which are presented as the bad guys. After the 40th hour, the facade is dropped and you just start working for the empire outright. It's an amazingly unsatisfying situation. Basically, it's not a game about politics and manipulation, but is a game about being manipulated by politicians.

Personally, I think FFXII is a step back in every regard considering the series, and since it's not even a top tier RPG series in my estimation, it doesn't have the room to be stepping back. I cannot fathom how people can dislike FFX, which is my favorite of the series, and not absolutely loathe FFXII.

[Veridian]

I disliked 10 due to it's dull battle system and shallow characters (same reason I wasn't much of a fan of 12. It was ok, 10 was ok, but neither are shining games in my book). Yeah turn based was nifty, but it was...generic (it's not like turn-based battles are brand new). And incredibly easy to abuse thanks to skills like quick hit and delay attack. Not to mention that to beat all the optional bosses you had to sit there and spend 40+ hours grinding away in the monster arena to get enough spheres to max out :smallannoyed:

12 failed by trying to remove player input. It worked to some degree but it did make battles (which was about 95% of the game) a bit pointless at times. And I could fall asleep while waiting for certain enemies to die (Yiazmat, I'm looking at you), wake up, aknowledge the battle isn't over yet and my party is fine, and go back to sleep...