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Kizara
2008-01-04, 09:55 PM
As the title says, I'm interested in having a discussion about psionics, mainly the mechanics in the XPH.

What things do you feel are ackward, clumsy, undesirable or unfun about psionics? (the Rope Trick, Polymorph or Turn Undeads per-se)

What do you feel is overpowered?

What do you feel is greatly underpowered/terrible?

What is abusable, exploitable or problematic?

What do you like/not like flavor or mechanics-wise?

Note: If you simply outright dislike the concept of psionics, that's not what I'm looking for here. I want to know the opinions of people who actually use or otherwise have familiarity with the XPH.

EDIT: Also, feel free to present and dicuss your house rules concerning psionics or aspects of the XPH that you find undesirable or the like.

Solo
2008-01-04, 09:58 PM
I hear things like metaconcert can be used to break teh system, but overall psionics is a nice, balanced package.


I really like the ability to augment powers. That's something that should have been introduced in 3.x edition.

Armads
2008-01-04, 10:17 PM
Problematic? Bestow Power, unless you go Wilder + Torc of Power Preservation/Earth Power, then it becomes overpowered. Otherwise it's worthless.

Overpowered? Metamorphosis, Greater Metamorphosis (they're clones of Polymorph and Shapechange, anyway)

Necromas
2008-01-04, 10:22 PM
I hear things like metaconcert can be used to break teh system, but overall psionics is a nice, balanced package.


I really like the ability to augment powers. That's something that should have been introduced in 3.x edition.

The Spell Point (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) variant rules has the same concept, with casters having to spend additional spell points to up the caster level of a spell beyond the caster level they were at when they gained it.

Ex: A wizard learns third level spells at level 5, so all his third level spells have a caster level of 5, so even at level 10 his fireballs will do 5d6 damage, unless he pays an additional spell point per caster level to up the spells caster level to a maximum of your actual caster level. So a 10d6 fireball would cost 5 spell points for being a level 3 spell and 5 more for the additional caster levels.

This has a big affect on balance though, as a 5d4+5 damage magic missile costs 9 spell points, as much as a fifth level spell.

Nebo_
2008-01-04, 11:16 PM
I love psionics, but there are two things that I feel are too powerful:

1) Silent and Still for free, essentially. Grappled? No problem! It's too hard to make a psion helpless. Hell, they can even keep manifesting when under the effect of hold person.

2) Suppressing power effects. The concentration check to suppress the auditory, olfactory or visual effect of a power is ridiculously low. There is often no way to tell that a psion is manifesting a power meaning that you can't ready against it for counter spelling the like.

Chronicled
2008-01-04, 11:19 PM
I love psionics, but there are two things that I feel are too powerful:

1) Silent and Still for free, essentially. Grappled? No problem! It's too hard to make a psion helpless. Hell, they can even keep manifesting when under the effect of hold person.

Grappling a psion still forces them to make Concentration checks to manifest, IIRC. Until they get Psionic Freedom of Movement, but then they're just equal with any caster.

Besides, that little boost doesn't compensate for the drastically lower power of their powers compared to a Vancian caster's spells, nor the amount of resources needed to properly augment them. (Not that this is a bad thing, mind you.)

Douglas
2008-01-04, 11:57 PM
One thing I really like about psionics is how it wraps so many chains of spells powers into single powers with the higher level versions as augmentation options for the base power. Instead of learning to dominate people, dominate monsters, dominate multiple people, and dominate multiple monsters, a psion learns to dominate. If he needs to dominate non-humanoids and/or multiple targets, he just needs to spend more power points rather than learning a whole new power. Instead of having Summon Monster I, Summon Monster II, Summon Monster III, etc., there's just Astral Construct, if you want it more powerful you just put more power into it - you already know how to make one, you don't need to relearn the process from scratch just to make it a little tougher.

Aside from polymorph clones and such, there is one thing that is clearly broken about psionics: there are a small number of powers with save DCs that scale at +1 DC/PP, twice as fast as spells and the vast majority of powers. Energy Missile and Energy Stun are the culprits I know of in the XPH. I think both of these were fixed in Complete Psionic, but it introduced another one or two such powers to replace them at the same time. House rule these powers to scale at +1 DC/2 PP and it's all fixed, though.

Theli
2008-01-05, 12:16 AM
One thing I like to bandy about is Ego Whip.

Charisma damage, with a will save.

But do you save to nullify? NO! Save for half! Bwahahaha!


Besides that, some of the flavor is nice, even if Psion's are almost like Wizards on a mana System. Or that Wilders are kinda just even more flexibility-limited Sorcerers, with senseless random class abilities. (Hey, use your Charisma bonus to improve your Touch AC! But only up to your real AC! Also, make enemies use extra PP for using telepathy powers against you! Right...)

Although...I still do like those Wilders... Spending 10 pp at level 7 can be somewhat useful. And the whole mental rage kick is fun.

Nebo_
2008-01-05, 12:25 AM
Grappling a psion still forces them to make Concentration checks to manifest, IIRC. Until they get Psionic Freedom of Movement, but then they're just equal with any caster.

The DC is 20. That's it, just 20. That is ridiculously easy to make for any psion worth his salt. Made easier by the fact that you can expend your focus to take 10 on the check.

Kizara
2008-01-05, 12:53 AM
The DC is 20. That's it, just 20. That is ridiculously easy to make for any psion worth his salt. Made easier by the fact that you can expend your focus to take 10 on the check.

What if it was opposed by their grapple check, would that be more fair/reasonable to you? Meaning, the DC= enemy's grapple check.



Aside from polymorph clones and such, there is one thing that is clearly broken about psionics: there are a small number of powers with save DCs that scale at +1 DC/PP, twice as fast as spells and the vast majority of powers. Energy Missile and Energy Stun are the culprits I know of in the XPH. I think both of these were fixed in Complete Psionic, but it introduced another one or two such powers to replace them at the same time. House rule these powers to scale at +1 DC/2 PP and it's all fixed, though.

Thanks for the contribution, this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I'll be sure to do that.


2) Suppressing power effects. The concentration check to suppress the auditory, olfactory or visual effect of a power is ridiculously low. There is often no way to tell that a psion is manifesting a power meaning that you can't ready against it for counter spelling the like.

Nice point, what DCs would you suggest? It may interest you to know that I overhauled the Concentration skill also, increasing DCs and scaling of them.


One thing I like to bandy about is Ego Whip.

Charisma damage, with a will save.

But do you save to nullify? NO! Save for half! Bwahahaha

Do you feel that this power would be more reasonable if it read "Will Negates" instead? Bare in mind that spells such as Ray of Enfeeblement would have this as well.

Theli
2008-01-05, 12:59 AM
Oh, absolutely. That should probably be a houserule for anyone that's using the XPH.

As to Ray of Enfeeblement, at least that requires a ranged touch attack roll. Ego Whip is just straight, adjustable, maximizable, ability damage, unless you have power resistance. And it CAN drop you down to 0 and helpless. And hey, why not be dazed for a round if you failed the save as well? And just to add insult to injury, Ego Whip is usable at Medium range, while Ray of Enfeeblement has to be used at Close.

And one more thing! The ray maxes out at 1d6+5 at level 10. The whip maxes out at 5d4 at level 19 (stopping pre-Epic, though it can just keep going up), gaining a DC bonus of +8. Or you can maximize it for 16 straight ability damage at level 19, 8 with a successful save, though maximized it still has a +6 to the DC. (Yeah, you'd have to expend your psionic focus...oh well.)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-05, 05:54 AM
They're in the Complete Psi. rather than the XPH, but Erudites are pretty nasty. DO NOT allow them near the alternate class features list on the WotC website - they really didn't think that through.

Anyway, in my opinion, the problem with psions is that they burn through their resources too quickly - they can win encounters 1 + 2 by themselves, effectively, but can do absolutely nothing in 3 + 4 (unlike wizards, who have 1st and 2nd level spells to play around with).

Witch
2008-01-05, 05:59 AM
Like anything that offers extra actions, Temporal Acceleration is a problem. It's basically better than Time Stop and accessible earlier. There's also a danger in things like True Mind Switch, if you imagine doing it to, say, a Tarrasque (as an exaggerated example).

Nebo_
2008-01-05, 06:11 AM
What if it was opposed by their grapple check, would that be more fair/reasonable to you? Meaning, the DC= enemy's grapple check.

That's going into Oberoni Fallacy territory there, but yes, that would be a reasonable fix for that particular aspect of the problem.

hippie_dwarf
2008-01-05, 06:16 AM
Overpowered things, well there is the obvious metamorphasis +greater, temporal acceleration and Mind Switch. Luckly with greater metamorphasis there is an XP cost, that makes you think twice before using it.

The Soulknife is awafully underpowered, worse than the monk, but luckly there is a decent fix off Wotc board (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=310984). Also the Prc Metamind is incredibly bad, but with Cpsi it made slightly less so as the feat "Practiced Manifester" allows to to overcome some lost manifester levels.

Until Cpsi came out, you could abuse Astral Construct by having more than one summonded at once, but the Cpsi, like with many other things, ruined it.

I really don't like the idea that half-giants are psionic. It makes no sense, whilst the other races did. I guess they just needed a good race for the PW.

Kizara
2008-01-05, 06:21 AM
That's going into Oberoni Fallacy territory there, but yes, that would be a reasonable fix for that particular aspect of the problem.

I'm glad you agree on the fix, but what is the Oberoni Fallacy??


Like anything that offers extra actions, Temporal Acceleration is a problem. It's basically better than Time Stop and accessible earlier. There's also a danger in things like True Mind Switch, if you imagine doing it to, say, a Tarrasque (as an exaggerated example).

Duly noted.

Aquillion
2008-01-05, 06:23 AM
I hear things like metaconcert can be used to break teh system, but overall psionics is a nice, balanced package.Metaconcert can't be used to break the system; in fact, if you go by RAW, metaconcert can't be used, period. It is functionally broken in the sense that the rules that are written in the book do not give you enough information to determine the power's effect without essentially houseruling key points... not minor things like "what happens in situation XYZ", but:

* What is the manifester level of the mental entity it creates? (which, remember, is vital information before it can manifest anything, so you know how many power points it can spend per round, not to mention typical x/level powers.)

* Can participants continue to take separate actions while contributing? Can they continue to manifest powers separately from the metaconcert?

* Does it have access to anyone's metapsionic feats, and if so, whose? Can it become psionically focused, which is essential to use them?

* Is the mental entity subject to attacks besides ability damage (for which specific rules are provided), and if so, what, and how are they handled? (The line about ability damage and the later one about saving throws actually makes things worse, because it concretely affirms that the mental entity is at least subject to one form of attack separately from any of the participants... what does that mean?) Does it have a physical location, or any physical representation in the real world? The entity gets bonuses to all saving throws in response to powers or psi-like abilities, but how does anyone go about targeting it with those? Where do you need line-of-effect to if you want to do something to it? What are those saving throw bonuses to -- are those all it gets, or are those added to the manifester's or something? (Without that, its saving throws will suck with only a few participants.)

* Where is the entity's line-of-effect drawn from?

* What are the entity's attributes -- specifically, its primary casting attribute? Some powers require attribute rolls by the manifester. What happens when the mental entity needs to make them?

* Can the conductor continue to take normal actions while directing the mental entity? If so, what action do they have to take to direct the mental entity? Is it just a 'move action to redirect' like most spells and powers? Does that mean they can give it, say, a 'repeat this power' order, and leave it on autopilot?

* What happens if the entity manifests True Mind Switch, or if someone mind switches with it? What happens if it manifests something that affects itself? There are countless problematic powers... personal dimension door, say?

There are other problems with it, but I don't remember all of them... the most important, though, is the lack of a manifester level and the lack of a concrete explanation of whether or not participants can continue to act independently (it implies that they can still move, and the power makes no mention of concentration... but can they still use psionics? Can they form a second metaconcert? Can the metaconcert entity itself join in a new metaconcert?)

If they can still use psionics, and even the conductor only needs a move action to redirect, metaconcert is fairly powerful (since it provides free actions), although it's really just a super-Schism. If they can't, it's much, much less useful.

Nebo_
2008-01-05, 06:26 AM
Oberoni Fallacy (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=941301)

lord_khaine
2008-01-05, 07:13 AM
The DC is 20. That's it, just 20. That is ridiculously easy to make for any psion worth his salt. Made easier by the fact that you can expend your focus to take 10 on the check

this is also somewhat countered by how much easyer it is to grapple a psion than a wizard.
the psion will proberly be standing on the ground manifesting, while there is a good chance the wizard will be flying around invisible.


Suppressing power effects. The concentration check to suppress the auditory, olfactory or visual effect of a power is ridiculously low. There is often no way to tell that a psion is manifesting a power meaning that you can't ready against it for counter spelling the like.

this is really only usefull outside combat, when you are in combat you can still see the psion starts to concentrate on something, and attempt to disrupt it.


And one more thing! The ray maxes out at 1d6+5 at level 10. The whip maxes out at 5d4 at level 19 (stopping pre-Epic, though it can just keep going up), gaining a DC bonus of +8. Or you can maximize it for 16 straight ability damage at level 19, 8 with a successful save, though maximized it still has a +6 to the DC. (Yeah, you'd have to expend your psionic focus...oh well.)

the case is unless you fight orc barbarians with a char of 6 you really have to get up around lv 19 before you have a decent chance of dropping people who dont save, if you compare this to some of all the spells that fly around at this point its really not worth to mention.


Anyway, in my opinion, the problem with psions is that they burn through their resources too quickly - they can win encounters 1 + 2 by themselves, effectively, but can do absolutely nothing in 3 + 4 (unlike wizards, who have 1st and 2nd level spells to play around with).

oh yeah, unlike wizards who can win encounter 3+4 as well for themself...
but yes psions can burn their pp at a alarming rate, so if you play one you have to spend your pp wisely, and not drop a fully augumented power in every round.


Until Cpsi came out, you could abuse Astral Construct by having more than one summonded at once, but the Cpsi, like with many other things, ruined it.


i would hardly call this abuse, as all other casters didnt have a problem with summoning several creatures at once, and the reason for the nerf is utter garbage, apperently Bruce Cordell thought that a wilder in his group who combined wild surge with astral contruct took to much attention from the rest of the party, so he desidet it was nececary to change the astral construct power.

Nebo_
2008-01-05, 08:03 AM
this is also somewhat countered by how much easyer it is to grapple a psion than a wizard.
the psion will proberly be standing on the ground manifesting, while there is a good chance the wizard will be flying around invisible.

Firstly: To what end? Who cares if their psion gets grappled? It hardly impedes them at all - just keep on manifestin'.

Secondly, that's a poor generalisation, to assume that all wizards are constantly flying and invisible. Sure, they can do it, but it isn't fair to say that all wizards are constantly flying and invisible. The DC for a wizard to cast in a grapple is also 20, but they have to win a grapple check to be able to reach their material components.



this is really only usefull outside combat, when you are in combat you can still see the psion starts to concentrate on something, and attempt to disrupt it.

It doesn't work that way. The only way you can tell a psion is manifesting is because of the display. It's not as if his face scrunches in effort >_<* as he manifests.

Baron Malkar
2008-01-05, 08:09 AM
I find it quite awesome that the Shaper as a ninth level power gets the equivilent of a souped up epic spell with Genisis. As an epic spell it can only be used on the astral plane and has to be reserched before you can use it and you have to make a spellcraft check to even cast it, however the psionic power you just have to learnit in a normal slot and spend th PP and as an added bonus if cast in the prime material it creates a growing globe of death.:smallcool:

If it comes up in any of my games I plan on house ruling genisis into a 9th level spell.

Attilargh
2008-01-05, 09:37 AM
Genesis is not an Epic spell. It says so right there in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm).

And it has to be cast on the Ethereal plane.

Theli
2008-01-05, 09:52 AM
the case is unless you fight orc barbarians with a char of 6 you really have to get up around lv 19 before you have a decent chance of dropping people who dont save, if you compare this to some of all the spells that fly around at this point its really not worth to mention.

The whole point is that, given enough time, you could pretty much killoff anything with a charisma score. (Anything that doesn't have a -)

It doesn't matter how good their will save is. Or how good any of their fighting capabilities are (to an extent.) If they don't have great power resistance, they're just eventually going down.

I think 4 rounds to drop any BBEG with 16 or less charisma at level 11 is pretty good. And it only takes that long if they save every single time. And if they don't... Hey, you get another free attack because they're dazed. (Well, assuming any minions are dealt with.)

Sure, some random save or die/suck may be better at level 11 than this. But that's just assuming that they don't save. This power doesn't even have to make that assumption.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-05, 10:27 AM
Genesis is not an Epic spell. It says so right there in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm).

And it has to be cast on the Ethereal plane.

Psionic genesis isn't too bad ... arcane/divine genesis, :smallyuk:. Who'll come with me to the demiplane of flowing time that's made out of platinum and diamonds?

lord_khaine
2008-01-05, 10:49 AM
Firstly: To what end? Who cares if their psion gets grappled? It hardly impedes them at all - just keep on manifestin'.

Secondly, that's a poor generalisation, to assume that all wizards are constantly flying and invisible. Sure, they can do it, but it isn't fair to say that all wizards are constantly flying and invisible. The DC for a wizard to cast in a grapple is also 20, but they have to win a grapple check to be able to reach their material components.


first of all a grapple is a very unpleasant place to be for someone with d4 hp and poor bab, because it means unless you do something fast you will eat some full attacks soon.
and i dont think its poor generalisation, wizards do have a lot more defences againt people getting in melee range of them, to compensate psions doesnt suffer as much for being in melee range of opponents.
also the spell component pouch is only a singel feat away, if you dont just find something that doesnt need components, like fx dimension door.


It doesn't work that way. The only way you can tell a psion is manifesting is because of the display. It's not as if his face scrunches in effort >_<* as he manifests.

actualy it does work this way, even without display you can still see the psion is attempting to manifest because of his intense consentration, they covered it in one of the FAQ's as i recall.


The whole point is that, given enough time, you could pretty much killoff anything with a charisma score. (Anything that doesn't have a -)

yeah and if you do hp damage then given time you can pretty much kill of anything with hp, the point being?


It doesn't matter how good their will save is. Or how good any of their fighting capabilities are (to an extent.) If they don't have great power resistance, they're just eventually going down.

again replace will with reflex save, and ego with with something like lightning bolt, then it will be about the same, the only difference being that you will have friends helping take down his hp, while you will mostly be alone taking down his char.


I think 4 rounds to drop any BBEG with 16 or less charisma at level 11 is pretty good. And it only takes that long if they save every single time. And if they don't... Hey, you get another free attack because they're dazed. (Well, assuming any minions are dealt with.)

then on the other side, how many BBEG without SR would be able to endure 4rounds of uninteruptet assult from a full caster?
unless he does something im sure most casters would have him down by round 3.


Sure, some random save or die/suck may be better at level 11 than this. But that's just assuming that they don't save. This power doesn't even have to make that assumption

then think about all the no save/suck spells, the case here is that unless you are actualy fighting something like a sorcerer, then the opponent wont be hampered at all by loss of char, and unless you actualy managet to get him down to 0 char before he either run away, run out of HP or miss a save or die/suck spell, then you have wastet all the time you spend ego whipping.

RandomFellow
2008-01-05, 10:51 AM
Psionic genesis isn't too bad ... arcane/divine genesis, :smallyuk:. Who'll come with me to the demiplane of flowing time that's made out of platinum and diamonds?

Platinum and diamonds? IT IS A RIVER OF MITHRAL FOO! =)

Theli
2008-01-05, 11:19 AM
yeah and if you do hp damage then given time you can pretty much kill of anything with hp, the point being?

again replace will with reflex save, and ego with with something like lightning bolt, then it will be about the same, the only difference being that you will have friends helping take down his hp, while you will mostly be alone taking down his char.

The point is that creatures tend to have significantly less charisma than hp. Some abysmally so. (More than just orcs.)

Though I suppose I see where you're coming from. The power may be a lot more situational than I first thought. (Shut down any random Sorcerers you encounter? Sure, why not.)

Of course, it's still broken at higher levels. But then everything is...

DeathEatsCurry
2008-01-05, 01:54 PM
Apart from all the "balance" stuff, it has a nice flavor to it... It isn't simply a spellcasting clone with power points, instead there is a nice combination of psionic variants of spells, as some new special spells (Which tend to be mind-affecting-ish) which fits nicely between the holy divine magic, and the flashy arcane magic... And it includes the coolest power/spell EVER.... Death Urge....

FlyMolo
2008-01-05, 08:53 PM
I absolutely love the psionic flavor. The ectoplasmic stuff bothers me a little, I don't like that stuff so much. But I would definitely play a kineticist if they got a few weak at will powers. Like mage hand at will. That would be perfectly flavored, and fun to use. As is, I would still play a kineticist.

dyslexicfaser
2008-01-05, 09:03 PM
If I remember correctly, I saw a build with a high level PsyWar that used the first level manifestation Prevenom, augmented over and over (there's no cap), to do something like 40 Con damage if you fail the save.

Xefas
2008-01-05, 09:07 PM
If I remember correctly, I saw a build with a high level PsyWar that used the first level manifestation Prevenom, augmented over and over (there's no cap), to do something like 40 Con damage if you fail the save.

That's impossible. The highest CON damage a Prevenom can do is 8. The cost of an augmented power in power points cannot exceed your manifester level. So, if the PsyWar was level 19 or 20, he could augment the power to a cost of 19 PP and deal 8 points of CON damage.

Ryuuk
2008-01-05, 09:10 PM
And if he did augment it up to 19, it would be the equivalent of using a 9th level spell that gave you the possibility of 8 con damage on 1 attack, after which it would discharge.

Alleine
2008-01-05, 09:10 PM
How did the build manage that? Effects from the same source don't stack.

Edit: wow, totally ninja'd