PDA

View Full Version : PC villians?



EvilElitest
2008-01-05, 12:01 AM
Now I allow evil players in my games and often even do evil campaign. Hell, the main villains of my games are often PCs themselves (against other PCs). Now have any of them proven to be really cool/scary in game? Not in the typical "evil means i just run around killing random people" sort of thing" but really scary?

Do people use PC villians?
My first scary CE PC right here,


Me-Alright, you walk down the road and see a begger asking you for a coin
Him (tiefling thief, chaotic evil)- I past him a coin
Rest of the party (hasn't gotten their)
Begger- Oh thank you my lord
Thief- I back stab him
Me-??? Ok he dies in agony. Why the hell did you do that
Thief- Because i could? To see how he bleed. For the sheer joy of watching a broken and hopeless man without any family or friends left in this world die alone and unloved with his final fate unknown to the world. For the the chance to laugh at his final expression of disbelief and betrayal and see the shock in his eyes as i simple laugh at his pain, almost as if he knew i didn't care about his suffering. Just out of the mild amusement of seeing how fragile life is and to feel empowered taking it. Because i didn't think he deserved to live. The irony in that i used his knife. The inhuman joy of feeling the blade sliding through his skin and into his back. The knowledge that out their somewhere somebody will wonder what ever happened to him, and that the next traveler on the road will have no knowledge about his existence. Because i wanted to see if the rest of the party would believe me if i told them he attacked me first. Take you pick?
Rest of the party- what happened
Him- I recognize him, he was cut throat from the thief guild we are fighting, he must be an assassin, he has a knife on him. I was giving him a coin when he drew a knife, i was lucky enough that i was able to stab him (he had hight bluff).
He was a really scary player but a good one

An entire PC party served as minions during a genocide and many of my main villains were very cunning evil PCs
from
EE

SurlySeraph
2008-01-05, 12:33 AM
OK. I realize that you hate being lectured about spelling, but it's "campaign," not "champain" or "champaign" Easy to correct.


Not in the typical "evil means i just run around killing random people" sort of thing" but really scary?

The story you gave WAS running around killing random people. If I understand correctly, he stabbed a beggar, gave a speech about how much he enjoyed killing him, and then lied to the party by claiming that the beggar was actually an assassin who would have killed him. Giving someone help and then killing that person is a very clichéd way of showing that a villain is crazy, giving a long speech about how much you love hurting people and life is meaningless is no less clichéd, and killing a beggar is almost as clichéd as burning down an orphanage or killing a puppy.

With that said, the best evil story I can remember off the top of my head was when I made a paladin who was the head of the city guard fall in an evil game. I started off reasonably, asking him to help us uncover and destroy a cult of demon-worshippers (we were a party of devil-worshippers, the Blood War was involved).
He refused to work with us, so the wizard paralyzed him and I had devils kill his wife and all of his friends in front of him one by one; after each one, I warned him that the demon cult would do the same thing to countless others if he refused to help us, and simply asked "Will you help us stop this?"
When the entire top echelon of the guard was dead, I desecrated the altar in the paladin's room when he ran to it to pray for help. Then the wizard cast a suggestion to convince him that his god was named "Asmodeus." So, paladin swears an oath to Asmodeus, becomes a Blackguard when he realizes that there's no turning back from what he's done, and obeys us out of grief, terror, and desperation.
When we actually raided the demon cult's compound, we just sent in waves of low-level guardsmen. They mostly got massacred. When there were just a few left, we (the actual party) charged in with them to make sure we actually destroyed the cult and the demons they'd summoned. The great part? We forced the fallen paladin to dig the graves and drag out the bodies of every single one of the hundreds of guards he commanded.

Nebo_
2008-01-05, 12:42 AM
OK. I realize that you hate being lectured about spelling, but it's "campaign," not "champain" or "champaign" Easy to correct.

I think he might have been trying to spell 'Champion' but it's hard to tell.

EvilElitest
2008-01-05, 12:44 AM
OK. I realize that you hate being lectured about spelling, but it's "campaign," not "champain" or "champaign" Easy to correct.

Thanks you


The story you gave WAS running around killing random people. If I understand correctly, he stabbed a beggar, gave a speech about how much he enjoyed killing him, and then lied to the party by claiming that the beggar was actually an assassin who would have killed him. Giving someone help and then killing that person is a very clichéd way of showing that a villain is crazy, giving a long speech about how much you love hurting people and life is meaningless is no less clichéd, and killing a beggar is almost as clichéd as burning down an orphanage or killing a puppy.

No that is the thing, we get so use to the big mindless brute who just runs around on a killing spree that the devil among us (or the party) is so much scarier, he is acting like a boring CE evil player. But instead of most players like that, who are just stupid and immature who i promptly kill i know he is smart and a good role player (he played a paladin last game ironically, die to save some random mooks from an explosion). So he is a smart, good role player who is acting like a sterotypical CE character not out of immaturity but instead out of the joy of doing it. He is a player who just wants to commit evil without being stupid about it, and is still a useful party member.


With that said, the best evil story I can remember off the top of my head was when I made a paladin who was the head of the city guard fall in an evil game. I started off reasonably, asking him to help us uncover and destroy a cult of demon-worshippers (we were a party of devil-worshippers, the Blood War was involved).
He refused to work with us, so the wizard paralyzed him and I had devils kill his wife and all of his friends in front of him one by one; after each one, I warned him that the demon cult would do the same thing to countless others if he refused to help us, and simply asked "Will you help us stop this?"
When the entire top echelon of the guard was dead, I desecrated the altar in the paladin's room when he ran to it to pray for help. Then the wizard cast a suggestion to convince him that his god was named "Asmodeus." So, paladin swears an oath to Asmodeus, becomes a Blackguard when he realizes that there's no turning back from what he's done, and obeys us out of grief, terror, and desperation.
When we actually raided the demon cult's compound, we just sent in waves of low-level guardsmen. They mostly got massacred. When there were just a few left, we (the actual party) charged in with them to make sure we actually destroyed the cult and the demons they'd summoned. The great part? We forced the fallen paladin to dig the graves and drag out the bodies of every single one of the hundreds of guards he commanded.

While that is rather sick, can a paladin even fall that way?
from
EE

EvilElitest
2008-01-05, 03:38 PM
Bump, do people not like PC villians?
from
EE

Konig
2008-01-05, 04:15 PM
I personally enjoy evil PCs. It's good because D&D is escapism, and being evil is just an extension of the same. It's frustrating because even if you do balance things well, other players tend to screw things up.

I lean more towards lawful evil. Especially in the sense of having a plan and working towards an end goal. Lawful evil is also more sensible: I stand by my companions because it means a higher chance of my own success, and this makes for a healthier campaign. (Unless I get some idiotic allies).
Maria Blackstone, a low-ish level Despot (LE variant paladin) of Hextor. Her goal was to unseat the ruling class so that she could either take command or put a puppet figure into power while she influenced events. I roleplayed my heart out in the times between my group's regular adventures, with blackmail, threats, bribes and secondary quests. I led the Grand Paladin of the local Heironeous church into mistakenly murdering an innocent, then weakened the position of Heironeous until it barely played a role within the local government. My capstone triumph was inciting a serious orc attack and then 'protecting' the city from it. The DM was fantastic and the party rogue was invaluable; the campaign would've been fantastic if it weren't for the other 3 party members, who ranged from "I have no goals" to "I'm going to murder this guy, just because I can." It ended all too abruptly when the DM got ill. Still don't know what happened to him.
I personally lean towards the 'vile' evil, and it's hard to find a group that's comfortable with it. With Maria Blackstone, I basically stuck to having her as an advocate of slavery (something I see as rather fitting for Hextor) and leaving it at that. All in all, though, you've got to respect the villain who uses a ring of regeneration/sustenance as a weapon (very prolonged torture session), or who keeps a dismembered rival as a living wall ornament.

EvilElitest
2008-01-05, 04:33 PM
Another good PC villian was a druid

The PCs see a man running from the another with a knife, hte druid uses entangle and forces the men to compermise. It turns out they had a disagreement over who's cattle was who's. Now the druid could have figured this out with speak with animals but instread he had them fight to the death bare handed. When asked why he said "who ever is strongest must be the more worthy of the cattle. If your strong you live if your weak you die"
scary


Then i watched Ruroni Kenshin:smallmad:
from
EE

Wraithy
2008-01-05, 05:20 PM
I'm more concerned with politically correct villains... I have to make one of those now:smallbiggrin:

thorgrim29
2008-01-05, 07:09 PM
Playing an evil game currently.... unfortunately a couple of the guys are rather immature about it, and our monk suffers from the evil woman=whore syndrom. I'm still having fun, but we're raher harmless as far as evil bandits who just emtered the employ of a devil go.

dyslexicfaser
2008-01-05, 07:29 PM
I'm more concerned with politically correct villains... I have to make one of those now:smallbiggrin:

So... what... no dark elves?

My favorite evil character would probably be my NE goblin cleric. He was a petty, spiteful, vindictive little bastard who could hold a grudge until the world fell down and did his best not to ever fight a fair fight. Since one of my party mates is now a cleric of Pelor, I anticipate a great deal of friction to come. She's already forced me not to bring our dead Frenzied Berserker back as an Awakened mummy, which is a sad day for Sonny the goblin.

As I believe a movie once said, 'There is no evil like petty evil.'

dyslexicfaser
2008-01-05, 07:51 PM
Aw, double-post.

Conners
2008-01-05, 10:37 PM
I had a not-so-evil drow fighter/cleric in one campaign. We were defending a fortress from the forces of evil, with the help of an army.

He was basically a realistic version of Drizzt Do'Urdan, he would've been good if raised in a better society. He wore a ring which made him look like a normal elf. At one point of the campaign, he chose to side with the general's evil sister, secretly--even though the general had hidden his secret about being a drow. His plan was to hire one of the best archers to shoot the general with his drowish knock-out poison, letting the monsters they were fighting in the courtyard kill her for him, and letting the evil sister take command.
However, it turned out she was insane, for she openly attacked the general in front of the party. My drow stayed out of the fight, knowing he would be painted as a traitor if he did.

When the sister was defeated, she pretended that she was under an enchantment and was now back to normal. My drow kept the secret to himself, but later she was discovered and captured. We found out she was actually serving the enemy we were defending against. The most evil thing my drow did, I'd say, was volunteer to be the interrogator so as to gain favour with the general. Even then, the torture wasn't very nasty (he was actually disgusted with torture), he would've done very horrible things to his former mistress, if he found it beneficial....

Sorry, I haven't played very many evil characters before.

Willfor
2008-01-06, 12:05 AM
I played a Kobold rogue in a dungeon crawl game who was LE. His motivation for going into the dungeon was to help the other characters clear out the dungeon so that he could turn the place into a trap-filled paradise. His Charisma was 4 because at the time I was stupid enough to say I wanted to take all of my rolls I got without rerolling (I ended up with half of his stats being under 10, and the rest being mediocre). So his backstory (for what it mattered) was that the other Kobolds didn't want him around, so his revenge would be to build the best death trap in the world and show the rest of them up.

The only thing he was good at was trapfinding, and trapbuilding. That's it. His Strength was 8, his Dexterity was only 14, and he was severely gimped in most other combat stats. He basically did 1d4-1 damage for the entire time he was alive, because every enemy was either a construct or a zombie. The reason he lasted through so many sessions was that he didn't care about his teammates at all. He avoided all combat that he could escape from like the plague. He payed the party's Warblade to stand infront of him at all times unless he was checking for traps. He avoided all the magical treasure incase it was a trap, and thought the rest of the party was pretty stupid for picking it up in the first place. He enjoyed it when the party's Drow was turned into a fine paste right infront of him (and splattered on him), protecting him from a golden construct's blade.

The big thing he had going for him was 17 Intelligence. He spoke very dryly, and intelligently when he ever spoke at all. It managed to freak the party out whenever he actually talked, because they had assumed he couldn't speak. He had communicated the entire game in hand-signals and nods. He knew the value in not talking when a gesture could bring across the same result--and not give away that he was an evil genius at the same time!

Unfortunately, he never got a chance to build his dream traps. The DM understood that I wanted to play the rolls as they fell (It was a dungeon crawl, the reason I could get away with an evil character was that it wasn't a long-term game!), and so he fell to a gold-plated contruct's critical hit. It splattered him across the entire party before I could really have a chance to be evil with him.

I haven't really had an opportunity to play any other evil characters, but I would like to play another intelligent evil character sometime. My Kobold was tame compared to some of the concepts I have.

UserClone
2008-01-06, 12:21 AM
I've always wanted to play a villain with the Armor of the Dread Emperor from BoVD. That thing about children is just pricelessly twisted!

EvilElitest
2008-01-06, 12:25 AM
I played a Kobold rogue in a dungeon crawl game who was LE. His motivation for going into the dungeon was to help the other characters clear out the dungeon so that he could turn the place into a trap-filled paradise. His Charisma was 4 because at the time I was stupid enough to say I wanted to take all of my rolls I got without rerolling (I ended up with half of his stats being under 10, and the rest being mediocre). So his backstory (for what it mattered) was that the other Kobolds didn't want him around, so his revenge would be to build the best death trap in the world and show the rest of them up.

The only thing he was good at was trapfinding, and trapbuilding. That's it. His Strength was 8, his Dexterity was only 14, and he was severely gimped in most other combat stats. He basically did 1d4-1 damage for the entire time he was alive, because every enemy was either a construct or a zombie. The reason he lasted through so many sessions was that he didn't care about his teammates at all. He avoided all combat that he could escape from like the plague. He payed the party's Warblade to stand infront of him at all times unless he was checking for traps. He avoided all the magical treasure incase it was a trap, and thought the rest of the party was pretty stupid for picking it up in the first place. He enjoyed it when the party's Drow was turned into a fine paste right infront of him (and splattered on him), protecting him from a golden construct's blade.

The big thing he had going for him was 17 Intelligence. He spoke very dryly, and intelligently when he ever spoke at all. It managed to freak the party out whenever he actually talked, because they had assumed he couldn't speak. He had communicated the entire game in hand-signals and nods. He knew the value in not talking when a gesture could bring across the same result--and not give away that he was an evil genius at the same time!

Unfortunately, he never got a chance to build his dream traps. The DM understood that I wanted to play the rolls as they fell (It was a dungeon crawl, the reason I could get away with an evil character was that it wasn't a long-term game!), and so he fell to a gold-plated contruct's critical hit. It splattered him across the entire party before I could really have a chance to be evil with him.

I haven't really had an opportunity to play any other evil characters, but I would like to play another intelligent evil character sometime. My Kobold was tame compared to some of the concepts I have.

Well talk about those concepts, that Kobold is amazing
from
EE

Copacetic
2008-01-06, 12:32 AM
Actually, EE could be talking about [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champaign%2C_Illinois"]Champaign[/URL

On Another Note, don't particularly like evil campaigns because too many people think it's an excuse to go " LULZ! STABBING TIME!" And randomly murder everyone.

EvilElitest
2008-01-06, 12:34 AM
Actually, EE could be talking about Champaignhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champaign%2C_Illinois


Ok, you killed the joke, its dead, just dead. It is like Borris the Blade in Snatch, just dead


On Another Note, don't particularly like evil campaigns because too many people think it's an excuse to go " LULZ! STABBING TIME!" And randomly murder everyone.
That is only for immature players, i just kill them all off.
from
EE

JMobius
2008-01-06, 12:37 AM
Chaotic "lol killing ppl is fun" Evil is dull no matter how you dress it up. Villains that have more complicated motivations, that champion causes with devotion, fervor, and intellect, are far more scary than a generic psychopath.

One of my favorite PC villain campaigns was Star Wars d20. In this case, the ultimate villain wasn't particularly interesting -- a fallen jedi who had, for a few reasons, become your standard near-demonic 'all-devourer', unstoppable ravaging the galaxy. The party had been imbued, through the dying efforts of the Jedi, with special abilities to enable us to defeat the monster. As a side effect of the need for power to stop the threat, everyone save myself had fallen irredeemably to the dark side. The game, from that point, took on an interesting balance. As a group, we held an uneasy alliance, because we knew without the others we would all be doomed. At the same time, there was a strong tension between some members of the group, and subtle sabotage and deceit became commonplace as we each weighed our need for the others against their interference with our own philosophies.

That was a fun game. :)

EvilElitest
2008-01-06, 12:46 AM
Chaotic "lol killing ppl is fun" Evil is dull no matter how you dress it up. Villains that have more complicated motivations, that champion causes with devotion, fervor, and intellect, are far more scary than a generic psychopath.

the idea was he was a generally normal adventure most of the time, he just was a bit of nihilists and he was a PC who was quite intellegent.




One of my favorite PC villain campaigns was Star Wars d20. In this case, the ultimate villain wasn't particularly interesting -- a fallen jedi who had, for a few reasons, become your standard near-demonic 'all-devourer', unstoppable ravaging the galaxy. The party had been imbued, through the dying efforts of the Jedi, with special abilities to enable us to defeat the monster. As a side effect of the need for power to stop the threat, everyone save myself had fallen irredeemably to the dark side. The game, from that point, took on an interesting balance. As a group, we held an uneasy alliance, because we knew without the others we would all be doomed. At the same time, there was a strong tension between some members of the group, and subtle sabotage and deceit became commonplace as we each weighed our need for the others against their interference with our own philosophies.

That was a fun game. :)

Sounds like one
from
EE

Willfor
2008-01-06, 12:47 AM
They really depend on if I can convince a DM to let me Homebrew. The most fleshed out one I have is a Neutral Evil Druid of a species as of yet undetermined, but most likely Elf. Said Druid is an avid crossbreeder of species using magic in just enough quantities so that his creations don't get branded as aberrations.

From there, he would have a goal of breeding himself an army of loyal freaks of nature's divine will to protect himself from what he would call "zealous druids." Of course, he would have to go on an adventure with the hope that he would find the exact magics he would need to make these creations. After all, magic doesn't grow on trees. Or, well, it does if you're a druid, but not really the kind he needs.:smalltongue:

Queue danger, intrigue, quips against other evil druids who are stupid enough to believe that cities are a threat to nature. In his opinion anyway. What makes him evil is that he sees most flesh-and-blood creatures as nothing but sword carriers and breeding machines. He wouldn't consider any crossbreed of any kind as inherently evil, and would infact love to make something completely strange just for the heck of it. Despite what problems breeding it would cause the creatures involved.

I would probably have to promise not use the other party members as experiments (not really a problem for me, as I try not to be evil to the party regardless of alignment), and not to break the game with whatever creations I would make. That last one is generally not as easy, considering unintentional breaks of the game will happen when homebrewing. Though I am not generally one to exploit them (See my severely gimped Kobold).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-06, 06:18 PM
They really depend on if I can convince a DM to let me Homebrew. The most fleshed out one I have is a Neutral Evil Druid of a species as of yet undetermined, but most likely Elf. Said Druid is an avid crossbreeder of species using magic in just enough quantities so that his creations don't get branded as aberrations.

From there, he would have a goal of breeding himself an army of loyal freaks of nature's divine will to protect himself from what he would call "zealous druids." Of course, he would have to go on an adventure with the hope that he would find the exact magics he would need to make these creations. After all, magic doesn't grow on trees. Or, well, it does if you're a druid, but not really the kind he needs.:smalltongue:

Queue danger, intrigue, quips against other evil druids who are stupid enough to believe that cities are a threat to nature. In his opinion anyway. What makes him evil is that he sees most flesh-and-blood creatures as nothing but sword carriers and breeding machines. He wouldn't consider any crossbreed of any kind as inherently evil, and would infact love to make something completely strange just for the heck of it. Despite what problems breeding it would cause the creatures involved.

I would probably have to promise not use the other party members as experiments (not really a problem for me, as I try not to be evil to the party regardless of alignment), and not to break the game with whatever creations I would make. That last one is generally not as easy, considering unintentional breaks of the game will happen when homebrewing. Though I am not generally one to exploit them (See my severely gimped Kobold).
You idiot, that's the sort of thing that gets us Owlbears.

Talya
2008-01-06, 06:34 PM
The rogue in the OP sounds like the FR god Cyric during his mortality.

Renrik
2008-01-06, 06:42 PM
I hate it when people play evil characters without real motives. My players do that all the time. They beg me to let them play evil characters, so I say "OK", and then they just go around killing things, have fun for about a session, and start complaining that there's nothing to do. Well, maybe if you'd have made your characters with interesting personalities, backstories, and motives, we'd HAVE something to do.

The most evil PC I ever played
a human cleric/rogue with the madness and fire domains. He was named Elizar Phoenix. I can't print his whole backstory here (it includes a lot of depraved stuff), but basically, he grew up in a slum in Baldur's Gate in Faerun. His mom died in childbirth, his father was killed by a loanshark, his brother took over the family but ran off to be a mercenary, his sisters became prostitutes, and basically every misfortune imaginable befell his family. He went to be a servant to an upper-class noble when he was around 12, and his hatred of the wealthy went beyond anything. After an accident on the site of his second job one night that left his face permanently disfigured by severe burns, he was thrown out of the lord's household, and lived in the slums, his entire family basically destroyed or seperated one way or another. So he started going a little bit crazy. A lot crazy. Driven by resentment and rage, he developed a philosophy that the civilization he lived was inherantly corrupt. Donning a mask over his disfigured face, he began his solution: To burn it all down, and in its place create a new, perfect world.

He began to experiment with alchemy, and learned to create alchemists' fire. With that and torches, he began a campain of terror in the city of Baldur's gate, first targetting symbols of the class-based order of society, then burning economic targets. He quickly became the most wanted criminal in the city, burning down warehouses, whorehouses, barracks, temples, and shops around the city. Eventually, he set off an elaborate plan that ended in a fire that burned most ofupper Baldur's gate and destroyed a huge portion of the wealthiest part of the city. Throughout theprocess, he layed evidence suggesting the arsons were thework of the nation of Ahm, to the south.

Also, somewhere along th path he kidnapped, recruited and teemed up with the daughter of the lord he once served, and they becamelovers. Turned out she was also psonic- and interested in pyrokineticism.

After the big fire, with the city in ruins, he fled south along the Sword Coast until he reached Ahm. That's where he is now- in Ahm, waiting to exacerbate tensions a little bit more. He's going to start a war; he'll let society destroy itself.

Man, I love that character.

But my favorite villains are the ones I get to put into campains and have the PCs face. I make some really freaky villains.

Zarrexaij
2008-01-06, 07:58 PM
Generally I do not like the idea of any sort of evil characters in the party I DM over. My homebrew campaign has an Insanity/Sanity mechanism, and evil + insanity doesn't work out well for PC's. For the very same reason I sorta cringe if someone wants a LG character.

The party in my campaign... well, they have enough arguments without throwing a villian in or a goody-two-shoes paladin who likes to preach.

I mean the characters. The people behind them.... well, they argue a lot too. :P

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-06, 08:06 PM
Being that I haven't played much D&D, I haven't played many evil characters either.

Hauc Feng was a psychopath certainly, and did kill people just for the fun of it. But there was a bit more to the character than that. He was also about the power of will, being able to things that he realizes makes absolutely no sense. Freedom from everything. Even reality. And gender thanks to the DM constantly changing it.

He was kind of a response to a previous Shadowrun character. I wanted to have someone totally free from Angst. G' was way over the top. Not a villain, but not far off. He liked to kill people, but he knew full well it was wrong. Because of mistreatment, his magic became warped, which was warping him. He shouldn't have had any control over his actions, but he still managed to somehow hold himself together. Which meant that he *could* have let people live. And while he knew it was wrong, it was hard to come up with any reason to spare those around him then this vague sense of it not being right. He also knew that he was going down the road of where he completely snaps, kills a small number of people before the police came and he dies a small death in much the same way his life has been. Alone and with no one giving a damn. And so he fought to escape that fate.

Politics got in the way, and I wasn't able to give Galgeron an ending worthy of him. Which would have been either dying saving a world that doesn't deserve it, going out in one terrible explosion taking one big piece of society with him cursing it as he goes, or finding balance and true love. Though that last part may be a bit too cliche.

It wouldn't have taken much to turn him into a villain though.


I think that it's more that I like grim and brutal characters more than villains though. I want to play a martyr style Paladin at some point. ("Don't eat that guy! Eat me instead Mr. Red Dragon!")

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-06, 09:26 PM
Martyrs are a bit over-dramatic when if you just kill the stupid dragon, you'll definitely get enough for a Raise Dead spell.

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-06, 10:19 PM
Well, I think my example may have been more comedic than was necessary. Though it might be amusing if he pretended to be a sacrifice.

Chances are any group I'd be playing with wouldn't be so strict with Paladin codes.

Accersitus
2008-01-06, 10:51 PM
I remember one campaign, where one of the PC played a LE or NE Cleric
(Necromancer), who was working for the BBEG
(several thousand year old female elven vampire mage).
(My char was LN Monk from an order not unlike the church of
Kellemvor sp? in Forgotten Realms, and specialized in killing undead).
The fun part was that he was supposed to resurrect/free his mistress
who was dead/bound a long time ago using the same artifacts
the rest of the party needed to save the world.
(he actually joined the party by killing the person who was supposed
to help us, and posing as him ^^)
He managed to keep the rest from finding the nature of the final ritual needed
(he even killed two PCs, one by using greed and one of the DMs finest traps,
a magic helm with a constant lighting effect in a snake pit. This was when
the PC knew something that could lead to his discovery with more knowledge),
hide his evil nature, and hide his use of undead from my char. All while
leading the party on the road to save the world (lvl 3 - 17), and eventually down
the path at the end marked Evil Ending Here with the rest of the party
getting quite an in game surprise when the ritual they thought would
save the world ended with sacrificing the inhabitants of a village they
saved during the first levels(They were kept hidden until sacrificed).
The most impressive thing was that the party
was powerless to stop what happened in character, because of the
smooth execution of the evil scheme.
Unfortunately detect necromancer/evil was not used by any of the surviving
party members.
In the end the vampire was revived, the cleric turned into a vampire, and
the rest of the party turned into wights/wraiths (don't remember)
and were at the front of a growing undead army sweeping south through the
human lands.

That campaign worked great, and even the PCs who were killed had a
good time, but our group has yet to experience that kind of evil again.
The closest was a campaign where we had to play monster races,
and I played a Dekanter Goblin (only one who spoke common, and
always hiding behind the larger PCs when talking to civilized NPCs).
We were evil, but if we went on random killing sprees or were discovered,
heroes would arrive ^^, and our master would not be to happy.
We had quite a good laugh when we had to buy a sheep from a village
(don't ask why ^^), because the herds were well guarded because of
orc raiders in the area.
because we were low lvl, and there were

Mr.Bookworm
2008-01-06, 10:55 PM
The most twisted villain I ever made was actually Lawful Good. A Paladin, naturally.

He directly started several holy wars that make the Crusades look like a picnic. Tens of millions of innocents were killed, and thousands of heinous crimes were committed in the name of his god.

These in turn, led to world war of sorts, eventually causing the near destruction of the material plane.

He actually was trying to undo his mistakes when the story started, and he tried to kill the PCs because he believed that they would stop him from making the world better.

Fun character.

Accersitus
2008-01-06, 11:08 PM
The most twisted villain I ever made was actually Lawful Good. A Paladin, naturally.

He directly started several holy wars that make the Crusades look like a picnic. Tens of millions of innocents were killed, and thousands of heinous crimes were committed in the name of his god.

These in turn, led to world war of sorts, eventually causing the near destruction of the material plane.

He actually was trying to undo his mistakes when the story started, and he tried to kill the PCs because he believed that they would stop him from making the world better.

Fun character.


That sounds like a paladin who would fall quite fast if he caused
all that knowing what the consequences would be, and causing all that
unintentionally seems quite unlikely.
That sounds more like a Grey Guard than Paladin (its a prestige class
he should look in to)

drunkmonk
2008-01-06, 11:21 PM
I don’t get to play as much as the rest of my group, I work nights sometimes. Anyway, my DM lets me play reoccurring NPCs that the group knows. I usually create them and run them as PCs when I am there.

I had a LE Fighter 2/Cleric 4 (Bane)/Warpriest 2 that everybody thought was a LG character for some reason. I played him for a couple of games when our CN trap monkey/trouble maker rogue pissed off the local thieves guild (and DM). They set him up to take the fall for a series of burglaries. He is going to be imprisoned for X amount of years and all of our guys are going to let him rot?

I convinced the DM to let me and another guy in our regular group who was playing a barbarian frostrager to try and get him out in a separate side quest game. We were not sneaky so we started killing, intimidating, kidnapping politician’s families, ect…

We got him out and were on the run. When we told the other group (particularly the guy who was playing the rogue) what we had done, everyone was surprised and said that the whole thing was out of character for my guy. I showed them my player sheet and my alignment and they told me I played him wrong.

I felt that playing an evil fighter priest was remarkable similar to playing a paladin. Being evil in a group and contributing and staying loyal to the other party members is in character for me. That is what my guy would have done. When one of his friends got nabbed, he did what he needed to remain loyal to his companions.

Being evil is not the same thing as being a jerk.

DM

EvilElitest
2008-01-07, 04:58 PM
Generally I do not like the idea of any sort of evil characters in the party I DM over. My homebrew campaign has an Insanity/Sanity mechanism, and evil + insanity doesn't work out well for PC's. For the very same reason I sorta cringe if someone wants a LG character.

The party in my campaign... well, they have enough arguments without throwing a villian in or a goody-two-shoes paladin who likes to preach.

I mean the characters. The people behind them.... well, they argue a lot too. :P

Doesn't that really limit roleplaying options? I mean a lot? Well, it varies from group to group i suppose
from
EE

Rutee
2008-01-07, 05:11 PM
If not-being-evil is a vast limit to you, you need more inspiration in the first place. Regardless, as a rule, if one PC is a villain and the rest are not, generally, the villain loses. Not because they're evil, but because they'll eventually take an antagonistic role. And very rarely do the antagonists 'win', in fiction :P

AKA_Bait
2008-01-07, 05:22 PM
Chaotic "lol killing ppl is fun" Evil is dull no matter how you dress it up. Villains that have more complicated motivations, that champion causes with devotion, fervor, and intellect, are far more scary than a generic psychopath.


Than a generic psychopath? Yes. Than a well crafted psychopath? No.

Consider a character that simply enjoys or feels compelled to dominate and/or kill and pursues that with intellect and the devotion and fervor of a real serial killer? I played one once, a sorcerer from minor nobility whose parents had locked him up and beat him when his powers began to manifest. Anything he couldn't control, literally through magic, or figuratively through deception, he tried to destroy in a subtle and calculating way. His name was Peter Lionheart. He still scares me.

The thoughtless murdering brute can be done well also. In an evil game I ran one of my friends played an Ogre named "Fourteen". That wasn't his actual name but what his employer called him. Low Wis, Low Int. Would follow orders well enough if watched but if left alone, and hungry, was likley to start picking up children and biting into their heads as if they were apples. He RP'd the character as having a total lack of comprehension as to why doing that was wrong. He was an ogre and humans were food. End of story. Not a boring character at all and quite fun to have in the group (that it was an evil group goes without saying).


Doesn't that really limit roleplaying options? I mean a lot? Well, it varies from group to group i suppose
from
EE

Yes, actually it does. But that's sort of the point. Depending upon your group, and the maturity level of your players, sometimes you need to limit their RP options so that the game can function at all.

EvilElitest
2008-01-07, 05:41 PM
If not-being-evil is a vast limit to you, you need more inspiration in the first place. Regardless, as a rule, if one PC is a villain and the rest are not, generally, the villain loses. Not because they're evil, but because they'll eventually take an antagonistic role. And very rarely do the antagonists 'win', in fiction :P

Well their are nine aligments right? Now most games dont' allow evil, so you have only six, and if you take out the two often more ciritizied then you have no LG or CN. So an aligment's possible worst shouldn't be a reason to get ride of it (i know you can have bad evil characters, and by bad i mean badly played, same goes with Miko LG and "I"m not evil" baby eating CN) but one shouldn't let the extremes destroy your game. Though player maturity must be brought into consideration.

Also on PC villians they come in three types

1. PC is evil, but works with the party. Can work out great or with a an annoying badly played evil character
2.Players vs. Player. If you choose a senior player as your Villian then you can have a good player. the head villian in my game is a massive miltary game fan, a history fan, and has an interest in politics, so it is a very interesting game
3. Evil PC party. Can work great, but only if your players like back biting
from
EE

Konig
2008-01-07, 10:37 PM
Well their are nine aligments right? Now most games dont' allow evil, so you have only six, and if you take out the two often more ciritizied then you have no LG or CN. So an aligment's possible worst shouldn't be a reason to get ride of it (i know you can have bad evil characters, and by bad i mean badly played, same goes with Miko LG and "I"m not evil" baby eating CN) but one shouldn't let the extremes destroy your game. Though player maturity must be brought into consideration.

Also on PC villians they come in three types

1. PC is evil, but works with the party. Can work out great or with a an annoying badly played evil character
2.Players vs. Player. If you choose a senior player as your Villian then you can have a good player. the head villian in my game is a massive miltary game fan, a history fan, and has an interest in politics, so it is a very interesting game
3. Evil PC party. Can work great, but only if your players like back biting
from
EE

There can be an evil party without backstabbing. See Nale's group in OotS.

Too often, people assume evil party = 3-5 people with drastically different motives.

What if the motives are the same? Four people joining together with a cause behind them? Examples:
A game set under an evil dictatorship. The PC's are individuals both good and evil, who have banded together to conquer the evil regime. The good guys might include the CG 'robin hood' type character, while the bad guys could include ex-agents of the BBEG (Who have information to valuable to pass up) or just rebels who have been twisted by the atrocities the evil regime has committed against them or their loved ones.

.
The PCs are penitents of Hextor (or, say, The Children of Winter). They share a religion, which is what unites them as a group.
For inspiration on groups of villains & storylines, look at any group of villains...
Magneto's 'brotherhood' from X-men is a group of powerful, maligned individuals who are united by an charismatic and powerful figure. Their actions are 'evil', but they don't tend to define it as such.

Change things around so that they're Half Fiends (or perhaps half orcs). Picture a PC group where half the PC's have dark-themed powers, with a hexblade and warlock among them, led by a self styled 'fallen angel' who deludes even himself into thinking he's actually a tragic hero. Their primary goal is to reshape (and redefine) the world so that the 'darkness' rules.

.
Metal Gear Solid has a team of elite mercenaries (many trained by the original 'Big Boss', taking command of an installation with an incredibly powerful device.

Change things so that the elite mercenaries are a (perhaps not-so) typical party, many trained by a once-hero who has turned traitor on his country. The powerful device isn't a mecha, but a dangerously powerful artifact (or slumbering creature). The goal of the PCs is to take command of the artifact (for convenience & something different, I'd make it something big - so the PCs can't flee with it) and use it to hold the surrounding territories at 'gunpoint'. Their goal? To obtain the remains of their one-time-master. (Perhaps to raise him).

Yami
2008-01-08, 12:20 AM
Also on PC villians they come in three types

1. PC is evil, but works with the party. Can work out great or with a an annoying badly played evil character
2.Players vs. Player. If you choose a senior player as your Villian then you can have a good player. the head villian in my game is a massive miltary game fan, a history fan, and has an interest in politics, so it is a very interesting game
3. Evil PC party. Can work great, but only if your players like back biting
from
EE

Half those aren't villains! But defenition a villain is an antagonist. Now, with #1 you can have the party team up with a villain to stop some greater evil, such as demon summoning gone wrong, but for the most part, evil PCs are still protagonists.
#2 works though. Good times, though often bad for the party.
#3 parties are still usually protagonists. Now that isn't to say that you can have them acting as villains, all Dungoen keeper style and what have you, but most games I've seen still run the party as protagonists.

Here, allow me to give you an example of Pc's who aren't villans;

a.) The paladin.

When ever I think of a paladin I end up recalling a certain sword and board character a friend of mine once played. The campaign was a fairly long one, with the party on the side of a summoning based kingdom, fighting off an encroching necromancer trying to make way for his zombie utopia. (note, the villian.)

Having the highest charisma, the Paladin was chosen to lead the castle defense when the undead hordes were sieging the capitol. Did fairly well for the first assualt too.

During a repreive, said paladin used his people skills to figure out which of the kingdom's spellcasters would willingly ditch the castle, and left in secret with the party and half the kindom's magic forces, blasting the ensuing chaos and retreating.

The party split here, half choosing to part ways with the paladin, feeling his goals and world view just didn't fit with his. The other half desired to live. The first didn't set a watch. The second half continued thier quest.

The paladin and his small yet shrinking entourage proceeded to harass the undead and remove some of the other more prominent power figures of the continent. By the time the Paladin had beaten the red dragon of the land, biggest of the big bads (with subdual damage, he then made a deal to leave the dragon and his horde alone if he'd take out the necromancer.) he was the last PC left standing, with but a small force of saved npc's secluded in a cave gathering resource and taking care of a boat for the enevitable ditching of this cursed land. He also had some slaves working a salt mine, but then everyone has thier quirks.

The undead hordes and thier chosen few living had the run of the land and our poor lonely paladin was the only hope for the forces of goodness and rightoeusness in the land. So, resolute he slunk purposefully through the undead infested land battling a dracolich and eventaully besting the Nercomancer and his cabal in combat. Leaving him and his follows the last surviving remanants of a once fibrant land.

And hey, since most of it was sorched by an angry red dragon and continent wide war, why not put those slaves and that salt to work? We ended the campaign has he sailed off, presumably to do more of the same elsewhere.

Still not a villian. Let's try again.

b.) The Necromancer

You know, necromancers these days have no sense of style. What ever happened to the necromancers of old, riding into town enthroned upon the back of a zombie bear, his minions prostrating themselves before him and then rushing forward in a feeding frenzy? Nowadays they just prancy through like nancy elves.

I ran a campaign once with a few... morally grey characters. Well, more than once really, as I used to run campaigns like that all the time, but this is a specific time I am speaking of, so let us return to it. The party started really weak, yet still full of themselves. So the characters were to start, an assasin and a fledgling necromancer, and they didn't have much going for them at first.

Like many, they figured it would be easier to gain exp by attacking commoners rather than monsters. I mean, if monsters prey on commoners, it's only reasonable that we should start their too before moving up to monster hunting, right?

Anyways the necromancer was not what you would call evil. He beleive the there was enough evil in the land, and that good needed a helping hand. He felt that the land needed more heroes and that it fell upon him to make them. And everyone knows that heroes all have tragic backstories.

So, enter the Dread Necromancer, He Who Causes Heros, the Mentor, Father of a Thousand Backstories. The premise is simple really, if a tragic backstory makes a hero, then the more tragic, the more powerful the hero, yes?

So our good friend the dread necromancer would burst unannounce into the homes of families, ordering his minions to slay the parents and contain the children. He would then raise the corpses of the adults and order them to slay their still living children, who would of course be released and given a fighting chance. Survivors it was assumed would grow up to be brooking dark heros.

Sadly he died coming to the parties rescue when one of thier black market contacts sold them out to the local kingdom, which is a shame as he was one of my favorite PC's, but aleast the party survived. The player then brought in a warrior with a tragic backstory of how his iddylic family was ruined in one dark night as he was forced to flee from the shambling undead forms of those he once loved.

Now, while I can see this second character as being a villian, the problem is that he wasn't. He was still an underdog protagonist who fell to the more powerful antagonist.

Oddly enough, I only ever see backstabbing in good parties. I guess Evil just knows that if you die your loot is up for grabs.

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-08, 12:51 AM
It depends on what definition of villain you use. Villain can be used to describe someone awful. Usually they are antagonists, but not necessarily.

Rutee
2008-01-08, 01:17 AM
How annoying! I'm not sure what I need to contribute after someone else explained about the difference between a villain and an antagonist, but.. hey, they did :P

My only issue with PC Antagonists.. is that somehow the idea just doesn't jive. It's not that it can't be done, and that I haven't supported it when it was done, but.. still, something about the concept bugs me somewhere. Can't place it..

EvilElitest
2008-01-09, 10:31 PM
How annoying! I'm not sure what I need to contribute after someone else explained about the difference between a villain and an antagonist, but.. hey, they did :P

Have fun then


My only issue with PC Antagonists.. is that somehow the idea just doesn't jive. It's not that it can't be done, and that I haven't supported it when it was done, but.. still, something about the concept bugs me somewhere. Can't place it..

Then, might i ask, if you can't tell us what bother you, then what is the problem with it


Also for the record, i actually meant PC villians, AKA one PC vs. a group, but i often use evil PCs in my game
And konig, thanks for that
from
EE

goken04
2008-01-09, 10:52 PM
So... what... no dark elves?

I believe they prefer the term "Elf of Sub-Terran Descent." Just FYI.

VanBuren
2008-01-09, 11:08 PM
Than a generic psychopath? Yes. Than a well crafted psychopath? No.

Consider a character that simply enjoys or feels compelled to dominate and/or kill and pursues that with intellect and the devotion and fervor of a real serial killer? I played one once, a sorcerer from minor nobility whose parents had locked him up and beat him when his powers began to manifest. Anything he couldn't control, literally through magic, or figuratively through deception, he tried to destroy in a subtle and calculating way. His name was Peter Lionheart. He still scares me.

The thoughtless murdering brute can be done well also. In an evil game I ran one of my friends played an Ogre named "Fourteen". That wasn't his actual name but what his employer called him. Low Wis, Low Int. Would follow orders well enough if watched but if left alone, and hungry, was likley to start picking up children and biting into their heads as if they were apples. He RP'd the character as having a total lack of comprehension as to why doing that was wrong. He was an ogre and humans were food. End of story. Not a boring character at all and quite fun to have in the group (that it was an evil group goes without saying).

As cliche as this may seem, I'm thinking of making one that suffers from an extreme form of Narcissistic personality disorder.

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special people
4. requires excessive admiration
5. strong sense of entitlement
6. takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy
8. is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her
9. arrogant behavior

And willing to kill if anything threatens gets in the way.

BloodyAngel
2008-01-09, 11:54 PM
I regularly play in, and DM games of all alignments. I am a firm believer that not every evil character is a sociopath, or serial killer who just goes Ax-crazy and slaughters everything. Those characters tend to die very quickly... But as someone who (rather often, I will admit) plays evil characters, I've rarely had trouble doing so with a group. In fact, some of my favorite characters have been evil.

One example was Kyrian Darkmist. A neutral evil elven sorcerer, who had LITERALLY submitted to experimentation by the BBEG of the game, who was trying to infuse demonic power into mortals. (Our DM's excuse for him being a Fey'ri from the Faerun book, in a non-forgotten realms setting). Kyrian was sado/masochistic, evil as sin, used many spells from the BoVD, and was generally of the "I shall amass god-like power!" type. He was also, however... smart. He saw the group as his best allies gainst the game's BBEG, who he had grudge against. ("50 years in hell was NOT part of the contract!") Thus, rather than cause grief, he was one of the most reliable and useful members of the group. Moreso than the CN bard, who screwed the party over with a disturbing frequency.

By the end of the game... the "evil" character had been so much more skilled, helpful and the like than most of the good ones, that several of the party members let me convince them to start using evil spells and powers as well... leading to one of them becoming a blackguard, and the party priest becoming Kyrian's "acolyte".

I think the trick to playing an evil character in a non-evil group is this. Don't betray the party. Come up with a reasonable reason for your evil caracter to keep with them... even something as simple as friendship with one or more of the members. Evil characters can love, and have friendships just as deep as good or neutral ones. If you play evil characters all as "I'll kill anyone who I feel like" types... you're leaning into stereotypes. Most "evil" people don't even think of themselves as such. Evil characters should be the same.

Rutee
2008-01-10, 05:51 AM
Then, might i ask, if you can't tell us what bother you, then what is the problem with it


Also for the record, i actually meant PC villians, AKA one PC vs. a group, but i often use evil PCs in my game
And konig, thanks for that
from
EE

Wise-ass; After directly saying that I can't quite specify the problem, you're asking for it? If I had to put my finger on it, it'd be that people as a whole seem to have a problem with handling the concept maturely. Playing an antagonist means acknowledging that you will probably lose, or be converted, or in general, /you are an obstacle for the story/. You will be overcome. Eventually. You should /certainly/ go down spectacularly (Antagonist or not, you're still a PC), but you will, eventually, go down. And a lot of people who want to be antagonists (The token evil guy in a party, f'rex) /doesn't get that/. Which really just leads to a lot of enmity, OOC. I dislike things that create OOC discord, when we as players /should/ be friendly about this all.

Or maybe that's not what the problem I couldn't place is, but it's a valid one just the same. In a 'perfect' world, this probably wouldn't be an issue, but!

EvilElitest
2008-01-10, 10:11 AM
Wise-ass; After directly saying that I can't quite specify the problem, you're asking for it? If I had to put my finger on it, it'd be that people as a whole seem to have a problem with handling the concept maturely.

Accully, i was being honest, i really do hope you put you figure out what is bothering you


Playing an antagonist means acknowledging that you will probably lose, or be converted, or in general, /you are an obstacle for the story/.
Antagonists don't always lose, see Song of Fire and Ice. Yes your right, they do want to go down spectacularly, but remember the advantage with PC antagonists is that if they do win (which is perfectly fine in my world) because it makes them an even scarier threat.


You will be overcome. Eventually. You should /certainly/ go down spectacularly (Antagonist or not, you're still a PC), but you will, eventually, go down. And a lot of people who want to be antagonists (The token evil guy in a party, f'rex) /doesn't get that/. Which really just leads to a lot of enmity, OOC. I dislike things that create OOC discord, when we as players /should/ be friendly about this all.

Varies on the group, i've had evil spies on PC and that has worked out quite well. one of them won, betrayed the party and generally wiped them out. Why? because they were stupid and he wasn't. The rest of the party rerolled and made a new group, while he made that spy an NPC and joined the good guys.


Or maybe that's not what the problem I couldn't place is, but it's a valid one just the same. In a 'perfect' world, this probably wouldn't be an issue, but!

Varies from group to group i suppose


Oh, i like the Narcissistic idea and bloody angels idea
from
EE

Willfor
2008-01-10, 05:02 PM
To be fair, in A Song of Ice and Fire, it is less about the antagonists winning as much as it is a case of everyone in the world losing at some point or another. Victories are won on all sides. And considering every side has its share of tagonists, both pro- and an-, it is enevitable that antagonists win along side protagonists.

Rutee
2008-01-10, 05:38 PM
See, the difference between a villain and an antagonist has been explained already. You're talking about a group of PCs who are villains. What I was talking about, /and what you asked me about/, are antagonistic PCs. They are NOT the same thing. Having a party of evil people makes the protagonists evil. Perfectly fine by me, and they can win as appropriate. In a party of evil people, the token Good PC is the antagonist. Who bears which title is reversed, but the eventual fates of each title aren't really changed, to me.

EvilElitest
2008-01-10, 07:41 PM
See, the difference between a villain and an antagonist has been explained already. You're talking about a group of PCs who are villains. What I was talking about, /and what you asked me about/, are antagonistic PCs. They are NOT the same thing. Having a party of evil people makes the protagonists evil. Perfectly fine by me, and they can win as appropriate. In a party of evil people, the token Good PC is the antagonist. Who bears which title is reversed, but the eventual fates of each title aren't really changed, to me.

Accully i was talking about a small party of evil PCs vs. a larger number of Good PCs, but it really does vary

from
EE

Saph
2008-01-10, 08:08 PM
I've never done it, personally. I've known a handful of players who like playing evil characters, and several of them have been . . . disturbing. Not all of them, but enough that nowadays, whenever someone tells me that they really like playing evil characters, I get wary.

I've played a lot of neutral characters, but one of the odd things I've found over the last few years has been that strongly good-aligned characters, even though they're more work in the short term, tend to be more fun to play in the long term. Sometimes doing things the hard way is more satisfying. The character in my sig, that I played for a full year, took being Good-aligned so seriously that she wouldn't even lie . . . and as a result, conversations between her and NPCs often ended up being absolutely hilarious to play out. The really weird thing was how effective it was.

I did get given a NE character for a one-off once. Was fun for variety, but the problem was that I didn't really want to backstab the other PCs. I dealt with it by taking it out on the NPCs and monsters, instead. That said, it was kind of amusing doing it subtly enough that the paladin didn't notice - wasn't actually as hard as it sounded, since a lot of what PCs typically get up to is so dubious anyway.

- Saph

Moral Wiz
2008-01-11, 12:06 PM
Personally, I find evil PCs far more interesting when done well. I mean, evil can have morals, things it won't do, and it's own ideals. Good is uniform in D&D, and unconvincing. Evil tends to allow more character development. Seriously; I can think of far more ways to make evil characters interesting than good ones.

I've got a habit of either running neutral characters, or evil ones. I have never run a simply good character (except one guy in shadowrun, which has no alignment system), and if I did, they'd probably fall at some point (though they might end up back in the light).

AKA_Bait
2008-01-11, 12:26 PM
I've known a handful of players who like playing evil characters, and several of them have been . . . disturbing. Not all of them, but enough that nowadays, whenever someone tells me that they really like playing evil characters, I get wary.


This is true. But then, I don't play with (or spend any more time than strictly socially required with) anyone I get a disturbing vibe from as a rule so the folks I'm willing to play an evil game with are pretty much hand picked.


I did get given a NE character for a one-off once. Was fun for variety, but the problem was that I didn't really want to backstab the other PCs.


Why should that be a problem? A NE character can still be loyal and have friends and presumably these would be the other people they risk their life with on a regular basis. One of the misconceptions about evil characters is that they must be backstabbing party wreckers. Although some are, it's not betraying alignment for them not to be.


Good is uniform in D&D, and unconvincing. Evil tends to allow more character development. Seriously; I can think of far more ways to make evil characters interesting than good ones.


Nonsesne. Any alignment in D&D, if done well, is not uniform. Just as evil charaters can have morals, friends, or things they are unwilling to do so too can good characters have flaws. A Paladin can have a drinking problem and like whores. He just can't lie about it, harm others when he's drunk or mistreat his ladies of the night. A chaotic good character can have a temper that he barely retrains and be 'pushed over the edge' once in a while without an alignment shift (I'm playing one of those now, a cleric of Sharess). A good character can have friends they won't abandon or betray, even if those friends want them to do shady things or require shady things to be helped/saved.

Moral Wiz
2008-01-11, 12:37 PM
AKA_Bait

You have an interesting point, and one I.. can't actually argue with. A first on these forums. Congrats. :D