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Falsehope
2008-01-05, 12:51 AM
It says in the 3.0 (not sure about 3.5) that a lvl 20 fighter could completely own a lvl 20 barbarian. In my opinion, its all based on luck, but i think dmg reduction and 1d12 hit dice would really help out the barb. What are your guy's thoughts on this?

JaxGaret
2008-01-05, 12:56 AM
What is the source you are referring to?

sikyon
2008-01-05, 01:11 AM
barb is generally seen as better.

tyckspoon
2008-01-05, 01:11 AM
There's a part of the DMG that purports to offer advice on homebrewing. It says something to the effect of 'The Fighter is supposed to be the best at straight-up standing still and swinging at each other fighting. If your class is better than the Fighter at this, you might have overpowered it.' It'd be the same section that says that Strength is just sooo good that having a bonus to Strength justifies the half-orcs net stat penalties and almost complete lack of any other racial features. With experience, those pages have been shown to be almost completely wrong.

Crow
2008-01-05, 01:16 AM
'The Fighter is supposed to be the best at straight-up standing still and swinging at each other fighting. If your class is better than the Fighter at this, you might have overpowered it.'

Whoa, the developers said this?

Priceless.

Nebo_
2008-01-05, 01:22 AM
It depends entirely on how each character is built.

an kobold
2008-01-05, 01:28 AM
I WAAAGHH!!!! AND FULL ATTACK beats I stand still and full attack every time.

JaxGaret
2008-01-05, 01:32 AM
There's a part of the DMG that purports to offer advice on homebrewing. It says something to the effect of 'The Fighter is supposed to be the best at straight-up standing still and swinging at each other fighting. If your class is better than the Fighter at this, you might have overpowered it.' It'd be the same section that says that Strength is just sooo good that having a bonus to Strength justifies the half-orcs net stat penalties and almost complete lack of any other racial features. With experience, those pages have been shown to be almost completely wrong.

Hopefully, idiocy such as this will be a thing of the past when 4e comes out. I am really really hopeful now that I have read the Races and Classes preview. So much hopefulness... but I am reserving all judgment until it comes out and I get my grubby little paws on it.

Utilizing all splatbooks, Barbarian20 vs. Fighter20 was a close fight until the Complete Champion Lion Totem variant came out. Core-only, Barb20 by a large margin.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-05, 01:42 AM
Utilizing all splatbooks, Barbarian20 vs. Fighter20 was a close fight until the Complete Champion Lion Totem variant came out. Core-only, Barb20 by a large margin.

I disagree. Rage is +4 AB/Damage at level 20. Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and the Greater versions are +2 AB/+4 damage, so the fighter's only a couple of points of damage behind. The real problem is the temporary HP from Rage, but the fighter can get an advantage by disarming the barbarian (he can have Improved Disarm, the Barbarian likely can't--and if you wait until the Barbrian uses Power Attack...) or tripping, combined with a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes. It's pretty close, really.

paigeoliver
2008-01-05, 01:44 AM
Just using the PHB and DMG then Fighter 20 should pretty much take Barbarian 20 and drive him around the block and back. Both of them are relatively weak compared to even the most basic fighting multiclass builds.

In Core-only (meaning the 3 Core books) then fighters actual build isn't all that important, but the barbarians is. This is largely because a 20th level fighter has enough feats where he will have basically all the IMPORTANT melee combat feats regardless of his selections, while the barbarian doesn't.

Of course little changes in build can change everything. Like if that barbarian happens to be an archery focused barbarian mounted on a bronze griffin (figurine of wondrous power) then he is going to beat up on most fighter 20 builds. Although even that has counters (flying lance build or flying grapple build would both counter flying archer).

Easiest way to truly test this out is to build them as identical to each other as possible other than the class. Same stats, near identical equipment (the barb and fighter will wear different armor, but that should be the only equip difference), the fighter should have every feat that the barbarian has, and then some.

averagejoe
2008-01-05, 01:51 AM
I disagree. Rage is +4 AB/Damage at level 20. Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and the Greater versions are +2 AB/+4 damage, so the fighter's only a couple of points of damage behind. The real problem is the temporary HP from Rage, but the fighter can get an advantage by disarming the barbarian (he can have Improved Disarm, the Barbarian likely can't--and if you wait until the Barbrian uses Power Attack...) or tripping, combined with a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes. It's pretty close, really.

+6 damage for the barbarian, because if he's using a decend build then he has a two-hander. Just sayin.

paigeoliver
2008-01-05, 02:05 AM
The fighter likely has about 6-10 more armor class points than the barbarian as well, which really changes how much he can power attack for.

Actually, it wouldn't be that strange for the fighter to have an armor class of 40+ with the barbarian having one in the teens. Some barbarian players fully realize that their AC will never be good and thus don't even bother attempting to get one.

tyckspoon
2008-01-05, 02:07 AM
The fighter likely has about 6-10 more armor class points than the barbarian as well, which really changes how much he can power attack for.

Actually, it wouldn't be that strange for the fighter to have an armor class of 40+ with the barbarian having one in the teens. Some barbarian players fully realize that their AC will never be good and thus don't even bother attempting to get one.

Mithral Full Plate, Nat. Armor, Deflection, Animated Shield? The Barbarian can use the exact same AC setup the Fighter does. The likely difference is more in the range of 2, because of the penalty from raging.

Mr._Blinky
2008-01-05, 02:08 AM
Really, it depends. In core, there aren't enough good combat feats to make fighter 20 even somewhat worthwhile. A straight up level 20 fighter in core is horrible, because you've run out of good feats so long ago that you're giving him random Skill Feats just so that he's got something. A level 20 barbarian will likely have all of the combat feats he needs, plus his other stuff, and just beat the crap out of the fighter.

With splat books though it gets a little more balanced. This is because if you have enough splat books, there are actually enough good feats to make all of those 20 fighter levels make some kind of sense. It's still better to multi-class, but at least a level 20 fighter isn't gimped just by having run out of good abilities to choose. While a barbarian gets its fun too, the fighter can take tremendous advantage from versatility, which is what supplements are all about.

And then the flying wizard fireballs them both to death.

paigeoliver
2008-01-05, 02:24 AM
This really depends on if the barbarian was built up from scratch or if he sprang into existence at high level. I know from general experience that barbarians that spring into existence at high level tend to have a much better armor class than those who are built up from 1st (the barbarian lags so far behind the fighter for so long that many stop spending money on AC).


Mithral Full Plate, Nat. Armor, Deflection, Animated Shield? The Barbarian can use the exact same AC setup the Fighter does. The likely difference is more in the range of 2, because of the penalty from raging.

Solo
2008-01-05, 02:35 AM
And then the flying wizard fireballs them both to death.

Bah, a real wizard would Dominate them both and make them his minions.

paigeoliver
2008-01-05, 02:41 AM
Good high level warriors can fly in some manner, even if it is simply a potion. Minimal flight capability is a requirement for the high level game that isn't entirely underground.

Also, just a guess, but the average high level wizard whose response to a high level warrior is FIREBALL is probably going to get eaten for breakfast. The high level warrior can almost certainly live through 8 or more fireballs, but likely can't make half that many will saves.

JaxGaret
2008-01-05, 03:14 AM
+6 damage for the barbarian, because if he's using a decend build then he has a two-hander. Just sayin.

QFT. Also, don't forget that Barb20 has DR 5/-.

And that Rage +8 Str bonus pretty much effectively cancels out the bonus the Fighter gets from his Improved Disarm feat if the Fighter is going to attempt to Disarm the Barbarian, meaning that the Barbarian can just as easily do it to the Fighter. And the Fighter is more reliant on using a specific weapon than the Barbarian in core-only.

Armads
2008-01-05, 05:35 AM
Core only, barbarian wins. +4 Attack/+6 damage is better than the Weapon focus tree, which gives +2 Attack/+4 damage. And the barbarian has 100 more hit points on average, as well as a better will save and DR. 2 less AC just doesn't give the fighter the edge.

Non-core, fighters wins. They can get Melee Weapon Mastery, which gives them +4 Attack/+6 damage total from the weapon focus tree, which is the same as Greater Rage. They are also more flexible and can go Lockdown-style, which will take down barbarians with ease. Although Barbarians retain the ability to use Belts of Battle while raging, they lose the ability to operate far too many items when MIC came out (since it made a distinction between the activation types, and lots of items are Command Word, which the barbarian cannot activate.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-05, 05:50 AM
I don't know--the Fighter can focus on getting reach (guisarme; enlarge potions or items) and try to trip/disarm the barbarian as he comes charging in. The barbarian isn't likely to go the same route. The fighter can also move away after every charge, meaning he gets two attacks--one AoO and one normal--to the Barbarian's one. And if the Barbarian uses Power Attack, which he's likely to (hitting each other should be pretty easy), disarming him becomes much easier.

Jack Zander
2008-01-05, 06:09 AM
I'd have to agree with fighters being better than barbarians even in core. That extra HP isn't enough to win a fight as the fighter will use his feats to gain battlefield control advantages. Don't tell me a barbarian can have the same AC as a fighter either. That's complete BS. Any magic items the barbarian expends the fighter can too, and then it comes down to the fighter having adamantine full plate for DR 3 and a higher AC than mithril breastplate. Not to mention the barbarian will most likely spend their moneys on a completely offensive route while the fighter will give himself a little bit of everything usually. Combat expertise + full defense until he gets a good opportunity (or simply runs the barbarian out of rages) can be a good tactic too.

And the fighter can have more HP than the barbarian by spending 7 out of 19 feats on toughness. Not optimized, but just showing how little that 20 hp difference will really be.

Don't forget that the fighter could choose to spend some feats on archery and get a few first strikes in, or go a mobile route and spring attack the barbarian, a feat the barb likely cannot get.

The thing with a 20th level fighter is that they have so many tricks, at least one of them will be an effective counter to a raging full attacking one trick pony barbarian.

Chronicled
2008-01-05, 06:15 AM
I don't know--the Fighter can focus on getting reach (guisarme; enlarge potions or items) and try to trip/disarm the barbarian as he comes charging in. The barbarian isn't likely to go the same route. The fighter can also move away after every charge, meaning he gets two attacks--one AoO and one normal--to the Barbarian's one. And if the Barbarian uses Power Attack, which he's likely to (hitting each other should be pretty easy), disarming him becomes much easier.

The barbarian can easily make a charge build with a glaive, and can just as easily get the size increase. I would anyways as a barbarian, whether or not the fighter was planning a trip/disarm build.

Also, locked gauntlets. (This, of course, assumes that the barbarian knows that he will be dueling a fighter.)

paigeoliver
2008-01-05, 06:34 AM
Hmmm, come to think about it.

The two strongest routes people can normally take a core fighter or barbarian is either the spirited charge route or the battlefield control route. Since the spirited charge beats battlefield control in a one on one I would forsee both characters being spirited charge, so whichever mount lasts longer would be the character who won.

Jack Zander
2008-01-05, 06:50 AM
Shock Trooper FTW.

Zenos
2008-01-05, 06:56 AM
Shock Trooper FTW.

How can you forget Leap Attack?

Hallavast
2008-01-05, 08:42 AM
Hmmm, come to think about it.

The two strongest routes people can normally take a core fighter or barbarian is either the spirited charge route or the battlefield control route. Since the spirited charge beats battlefield control in a one on one I would forsee both characters being spirited charge, so whichever mount lasts longer would be the character who won.

Except by this logic the fighter would likely have enough feats to be capable in another tactic in addition to mounted combat. So, wouldn't that give him an edge?

Falsehope
2008-01-05, 02:12 PM
What is the source you are referring to?

its on page 25 of the 3.0 Dungeon Master's guide. i agree tho, in just core, when in a rage, the barbarian would reduce the fighter to dust. Im not so sure when the fighter has more selection over his feats when he has options to use the other books. I also think it's also up to what magic items they have. Finally, barbs can have nice AC, its just sterotyping that every barb wears studded leather and wields a great axe.At lvl 1 maybe, but at lvl 20, it would be a lot different.

Talya
2008-01-05, 02:24 PM
then it comes down to the fighter having adamantine full plate for DR 3 and a higher AC than mithril breastplate.

Just to point out, the Barbarian will end up with mithral full plate, not a mithral breastplate, because they are restricted to medium armor, not light, and a mithral fullplate suit is medium armor.

Mithral Full plate (medium armor) = AC 8, dex max +3.
Adamantite Full Plate (heavy armor) = AC8, DR 3/-, dex max +1.

Assuming the barbarian has a bit of dex, he'll have higher armor class, although he loses some of that advantage when he rages. The DR on the adamantite goes a long way toward evening up the DR difference (the barbarian naturally has DR 5/-), but the barbarian still ends up better defensively.

Roderick_BR
2008-01-05, 02:45 PM
Shock Trooper FTW.
Unless the fighter uses Elusive Target, then the barbarian is screwed.

I'd say that a fighter 20 can take on a barbarian 20, if he's prepared, i.e., he picks a good selection of equipment and magic itens, knows the battlefield well, and can plan a good tactic.
The thing is, fighter, and barbarian, as base meelers, are balanced against each other. The fighter only loses against anything with spellcasting or spell-like abilities.

okay, the fighter will start by picking up a reach weapon, preferably with that he can either counter a charge (very dangerous for the barbarian if he's shock trooping), or trip. Once he stops the charge, he can keep using the reach weapon, or change to something that allows him to disarm the opponent, or sunder the weapon. If neither is possible (locked gauntlet, or adamantine weapons), he can pick his favorite weapon and try to explore the barbarian's smaller AC with his power attack, but he won't want to stay close to trade full attacks, as the barbarian will have the upper hand. The fighter's better chance is to hit and run, increasing his AC to avoid being killed in one or 2 hits. By 20th level, the barbarian's rage will last forever and a half, and he won't be tired after(if) it runs out, so the fighter can't stall until the barbarian is tired. If the fighter has access to tactical feats (that he can get a lot) it can tip the chances in his favor.
After that, it'll be a matter of who's gonna hit the other hard, how long each one lasts (barbarian with a upper hand), and how long the magic itens will last.

Chronicled
2008-01-05, 03:26 PM
As I've mentioned, getting reach doesn't necessarily negate a charging barbarian. It's just as easy to be a Shock Trooper with a glaive or other reach weapon, and a Barbarian is just as capable of drinking a potion of Enlarge Person.