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Saph
2008-01-05, 05:27 PM
A lot of you guys helped me out while I was building my character in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68344) for our new campaign, so I thought I'd tell you how it went. :)

We began in a village in the wilderness, in a 4e-style 'points of light' setting. There was no starting quest or anything, and the session mostly revolved around the party wizard exploring the nearby ruins, with the rest of us accompanying him and running into trouble along the way. The party was a 1st-level druid, a 1st-level scout, a 1st-level wizard, and me, a 1st-level warblade. We played fast and it turned out to be a really combat-intensive game, with eight fights, four of which were CR 3-4ish.

Thanks to those who advised me to drop Hunter's Sense/Wolf Fang Strike and use Punishing Stance and Steely Strike instead - they really helped. Things I noticed:

Crusader's Strike is huge at first level. When there's so little healing, being able to hurt an enemy and put an ally back on their feet in the same round is awesome.
Warblades at first level are just all-around great. Steel Wind with Punishing Stance can practically one-shot an encounter, and Steely Strike is a good backup against hard-to-hit things. The d12 hit die makes a difference, too - in the final battle, the extra two HP let us win the fight instead of lose it. And since you can recover your maneuvers with an attack, you can keep fighting non-stop round after round.
Druids are just as good as warblades, even at low levels. The druid's wolf companion was basically an extra party member. If the player ever figures out to get a war-trained riding dog and put barding on it, his dog is going to outclass most of the other PCs.
First-level Scouts, and Dex-fighters in general, are kind of meh. Skirmish is easy to get, but it means you have to rely a lot on ranged attacks, and your melee attacks aren't impressive. Skills are unreliable too.
First-level wizards are terrible. The wizard was like a glass cannon, except a cannon which only had three shots per day, each of which only had a 2/3 chance of working. He managed to contribute in a couple of fights with grease and colour spray, but most of the time he ended up using a bow or sword. In the third and fourth fights he prepared sleep in the morning only to discover that the enemies were immune to it, and in the final fight of the session he came in loaded with colour spray to find that the bad guys were undead.

Having given the maneuvers a test-drive, I think a crusader would be even more powerful than a warblade at 1st-level, probably the strongest fighting class in the game. Having access to the Martial Spirit stance would be absolutely awesome, and he'd be a tank that would be close to unkillable by any equal-CR encounter. Still, I'm quite happy with my warblade, so I've got no desire to try one out. :)

The final battle of the session was against a pair of zombies, each of which had 30ish HP, moved at normal speed, and exploded into fire when killed. Over the course of the battle my Crusader's Strikes healed a total of about 15 points of damage, and quite literally made the difference between surviving and dying. I'm pretty sure a normal melee character would have been killed, along with the rest of the party, so thanks to all who helped!

The DM has now decided that the Tome of Battle is horribly overpowered. It's going to be funny to see the reaction when our group's resident powergamer comes back from holiday next week with his newly-built Swordsage. :)

- Saph

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-05, 05:38 PM
I still don't think you can use Martial Study to pick up maneuvers based on your full IL, but if you get to, great. Yes, Crusader's Strike is great, and yes, Crusaders do take level one's lunch money. A Crusader/Druid/Beguiler/something group (Warlock? at level 1, Warlocks are great, with Shatter at will and a 1d6 ranged touch) would be amazing.

That said, tell the wizard to make some Silent Image scrolls. And Enlarge Person.

Saph
2008-01-05, 05:45 PM
I still don't think you can use Martial Study to pick up maneuvers based on your full IL, but if you get to, great.

I've reread all the sections of my copy of ToB, and I'm pretty sure you can. If you find a ruling otherwise, though, send me the link.


That said, tell the wizard to make some Silent Image scrolls. And Enlarge Person.

Our current party funds don't break three figures. :P But I'll suggest it to him when we get the chance. I sent him the PDF version of TLN's wizard guide, so I think he'll be okay once we hit level 3 or so.

- Saph

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-05, 05:55 PM
I've reread all the sections of my copy of ToB, and I'm pretty sure you can. If you find a ruling otherwise, though, send me the link.
Well, it says select a maneuver "for which you meet the prerequisite". The prerequisite includes X levels in an appropriate Martial Adept class. All other levels count as X/2 levels in a Martial Adept class. Crusader IL and Warblade IL aren't the same thing--that's easy enough to tell by looking at a multiclassed Martial Adept. So you have to have a Crusader IL of 1 to take Crusader's Strike, and you have a Crusader IL of 1 as a Warblade 2.

I've played a couple of level 1-2 Crusaders, incidentally (I switch to a reach weapon and Iron Guard's Glare at level 2, usually), and they really do work wonders at preventing low-level deaths.


Our current party funds don't break three figures. :P But I'll suggest it to him when we get the chance. I sent him the PDF version of TLN's wizard guide, so I think he'll be okay once we hit level 3 or so.

- Saph
...there's a PDF version? That thing has gotten around the Webbernets, I guess.

'n any case, first-level scrolls cost 6 gp to make. Even at first level, that's affordable, and that 6gp is gonna contribute more than any other way you can spend it, I think.

Saph
2008-01-05, 06:06 PM
Well, it says select a maneuver "for which you meet the prerequisite".

Crusader's Strike doesn't have any prerequisites listed in its entry, though. And the "Prerequisites" section on ToB page 44 doesn't mention Initiator Level.


...there's a PDF version? That thing has gotten around the Webbernets, I guess.

Home-grown, actually. A poster here on GitP was bored a few months back and made a tidied-up version with WotC pictures copied in (illustrations from Complete Mage, Spell Compendium, things like that). I thought it looked nice, so I saved a copy.

- Saph

Chronicled
2008-01-05, 06:08 PM
I'm curious to know, what was your final build decision?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-05, 06:09 PM
Crusader's Strike doesn't have any prerequisites listed in its entry, though. And the "Prerequisites" section on ToB page 44 doesn't mention Initiator Level.
Crusader's strike is "Crusader 1". That's the level of the maneuver, which means you need the appropriate Crusader IL to take it. Otherwise, a first-level Warblade could just take Mountain Tombstone Strike (the 9th-level SD) one, since it has no prerequisites.


Home-grown, actually. A poster here on GitP was bored a few months back and made a tidied-up version with WotC pictures copied in (illustrations from Complete Mage, Spell Compendium, things like that). I thought it looked nice, so I saved a copy.

- Saph
Aha.

Draz74
2008-01-05, 06:11 PM
'n any case, first-level scrolls cost 6 gp to make. Even at first level, that's affordable, and that 6gp is gonna contribute more than any other way you can spend it, I think.

1st-level Scrolls cost 12.5 gp to make. You're thinking of Cantrip scrolls. Sorry.

As far as the "ToB is overpowered" issue ... it's probably in your best interest, Saph, to try to prevent that opinion from solidifying in your DM. So you can keep using ToB in future games, you know. To that end, I'd point out the following to him:

- ToB is better at 1st level than at any other time of the game. (Like all melee, but he doesn't have to necessarily accept that part.)
- Yours is a fairly optimized ToB build. I mean, you said yourself that you would have been a lot weaker if you'd picked up Wolf Fang Strike and Hunter's Sense.
- (optional) Rachel's interpretation of the initiator level rules. Which would make you not quite such a terror at 1st level.
- The Druid is just as bad as your character, even at Level 1! If the DM bans ToB for overpower, he should ban (or at least nerf) the Druid too!
- If you're using ToB, he can too. Invite him to send 2 Hobgoblin Warblades, Level 2, at your group, and see if they "mop up" like he thinks they will. Whether they do or not, at least he might realize that it's more fun to play ToB characters than normal characters.

Saph
2008-01-05, 06:13 PM
I'm curious to know, what was your final build decision?

Human warblade, Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8. Feats were Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) and Adaptive Style, maneuvers were Steel Wind, Steely Strike, and Moment of Perfect Mind, and stance was Punishing Stance.

It worked very well. I used a longsword and shield rather than a double-handed weapon, since I was mostly one-shotting things anyway and the extra AC was useful. The only thing I didn't get much use out of was Adaptive Style, but I think that'll get more handy as I go up levels and have more variety of choice.

Next level (which I think we're at already - we earned a ton of XP) I'll probably take Leading the Attack, so that I can pick up White Raven Tactics at level 5. Not sure which second-level maneuvers to take, but I'll decide that once we hit level 3.

- Saph

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-05, 06:18 PM
It worked very well. I used a longsword and shield rather than a double-handed weapon, since I was mostly one-shotting things anyway and the extra AC was useful. The only thing I didn't get much use out of was Adaptive Style, but I think that'll get more handy as I go up levels and have more variety of choice.
Shields are great at level 1. Two-handed weapons don't start shining until a bit later.


Next level (which I think we're at already - we earned a ton of XP) I'll probably take Leading the Attack, so that I can pick up White Raven Tactics at level 5. Not sure which second-level maneuvers to take, but I'll decide that once we hit level 3.
Mountain Hammer is an obvious choice for both damage and wall-smashing utility. Rabid Wolf Strike also gives +4 AB/-4 AC, but doesn't have the utility, so that's up to you. Emerald Razor is better than either in the long term, because it lets you do a power-attack touch attack with a two-handed weapon. (At level 3, the +6 damage from that isn't much worse than the 2d6, either--but you might not have Power Attack.)

You should also pick up Wall of Blades--using your attack roll as your AC is great when it comes to touch/ranged touch attacks.

Saph
2008-01-05, 06:30 PM
Crusader's strike is "Crusader 1". That's the level of the maneuver, which means you need the appropriate Crusader IL to take it. Otherwise, a first-level Warblade could just take Mountain Tombstone Strike (the 9th-level SD) one, since it has no prerequisites.

True, but the table on page 39 only mentions Initiator Level. It doesn't say anything about which class you have the initiator level in. The references to 1/2 initiator level only mention multiclass characters and characters without martial adept levels. So I think a warblade 1 has initiator level 1 for all his maneuvers, including ones he takes Martial Study for.

I do see where you're coming from, though.


- The Druid is just as bad as your character, even at Level 1! If the DM bans ToB for overpower, he should ban (or at least nerf) the Druid too!
- If you're using ToB, he can too. Invite him to send 2 Hobgoblin Warblades, Level 2, at your group, and see if they "mop up" like he thinks they will. Whether they do or not, at least he might realize that it's more fun to play ToB characters than normal characters.

He already did. :P Or a level 1 Warblade, anyway. We cut it down effortlessly. The thing is, I know how to use the ToB features a fair bit better than him, due largely to what I've picked up on these boards. The only really dangerous encounters tend to be the ones where he cheats, or sends things against us with a much higher CR. But he's a very good DM and runs exciting games, so I don't complain. :)

And yeah, a Druid really is just as powerful as a Warblade or more, at every level from 1 to 20. This Druid isn't, because the player's quite new. If I was playing him and wanted to be fully effective I'd get a war-trained riding dog, fit it with leather barding, share spells with it, and laugh maniacally as the CR 1 enemy monsters fled in terror before the Dog of Doom. But there's no need.

From personal experience with previous campaigns, I think Swordsages are noticably more powerful than Warblades (although maybe not at level 1), so it'll be interesting to see the reactions once the Swordsage character joins . . .

- Saph

Lemur
2008-01-05, 06:40 PM
The Martial Study feat lets you count your levels in a martial adept class as your initiator level with the selected maneuver. The half level to initiator level only applies to multiclassing, not Martial Study. The feat only treats non-martial adept classes as half level for purposes of initiator level.


The DM has now decided that the Tome of Battle is horribly overpowered. It's going to be funny to see the reaction when our group's resident powergamer comes back from holiday next week with his newly-built Swordsage. :)

Tell your DM some random person on the Internet said "lolz" to this. Exploding fast zombies at first level?

Anyway, I'd agree that Mountain Hammer is probably a better low level choice than Emerald Razor. Plus I have the feeling that your DM is the type who will throw you up against creatures with DR, especially now that he's decided you're too powerful.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-05, 09:07 PM
True, but the table on page 39 only mentions Initiator Level. It doesn't say anything about which class you have the initiator level in. The references to 1/2 initiator level only mention multiclass characters and characters without martial adept levels. So I think a warblade 1 has initiator level 1 for all his maneuvers, including ones he takes Martial Study for.

I do see where you're coming from, though.
The table on page 39 doesn't say anything about which class you have it in... but that's what the Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade X tag on the maneuvers is for.
The fact that multiclassed initiators have different initiator levels undermines your point, I think. A Warblade 6/Crusader 2 has a Warblade IL of 7 and a Crusader IL of 5; he has different ILs for different classes.


From personal experience with previous campaigns, I think Swordsages are noticably more powerful than Warblades (although maybe not at level 1), so it'll be interesting to see the reactions once the Swordsage character joins . . .

- Saph

I don't think Swordsages are noticeably more powerful than Warblades. The TWF Shadow-blade-using Swordsage looks very good, especially at "high points" like levels 4 (Insightful Strike[Tiger Claw] with Wolf Fang Strike) and 10, but at 16 the Warblade's got White Raven Hammer and another powerful single-strike maneuver and the Swordsage just gets another pair of attacks from Raging Mongoose--and then there's DR. DR really is a killer, and enhancements like Transmuting need to go on both your weapons and don't help as much as they could (you open up with Pouncing Charge + Searing Blade or Dancing Mongoose).

At levels 1 and 2, the Swordsage doesn't even have Weapon Finesse, so, meh.

Quellian-dyrae
2008-01-05, 09:54 PM
The table on page 39 doesn't say anything about which class you have it in... but that's what the Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade X tag on the maneuvers is for.
The fact that multiclassed initiators have different initiator levels undermines your point, I think. A Warblade 6/Crusader 2 has a Warblade IL of 7 and a Crusader IL of 5; he has different ILs for different classes.


I think that tag is just because that's how spells/powers/maneuvers/whatever are written; it lists its level for the base class or classes that are inherently able to use it, NOT the class level that counts as the caster/manifester/initiator level. Just like a wilder would use its wilder level as its manifester level if it picked up the Kineticist 2 Energy Missile with Expanded Knowledge, so too does a warblade use its warblade level as its initiator level if it picks up the Crusader 1 Crusader's Strike with Martial Study.

icthius
2008-01-05, 10:09 PM
Home-grown, actually. A poster here on GitP was bored a few months back and made a tidied-up version with WotC pictures copied in (illustrations from Complete Mage, Spell Compendium, things like that). I thought it looked nice, so I saved a copy.

- Saph

I will be your best internet-friend if you give a copy!

Snooder
2008-01-05, 11:54 PM
Next level (which I think we're at already - we earned a ton of XP) I'll probably take Leading the Attack, so that I can pick up White Raven Tactics at level 5. Not sure which second-level maneuvers to take, but I'll decide that once we hit level 3.


Mountain Hammer is almost a must for all Warblades. You'll never have to buy a specialty weapon again. And you can put off buying magic weapons just that much longer. It's a great way to save money. And it's a good damage dealer even w/o the DR piercing.



The DM has now decided that the Tome of Battle is horribly overpowered. It's going to be funny to see the reaction when our group's resident powergamer comes back from holiday next week with his newly-built Swordsage.


Can't help you there. Dealing with the same problem among my gaming group. Good news is that unless you cheat (i.e. use the obvious misprints like Divine Surge's 8d8 damage) it's surprisingly hard to powergame ToB to ridiculous levels. Your build is about top of the line optimization-wise (well, you could add an extra 1d6 if you pick up rapid assault).

Xefas
2008-01-06, 12:24 AM
Good news is that unless you cheat (i.e. use the obvious misprints like Divine Surge's 8d8 damage) it's surprisingly hard to powergame ToB to ridiculous levels.

What's the actual damage suppose to be? It says 8d8 both on the maneuver itself and on the table.

Saph
2008-01-06, 05:16 AM
I will be your best internet-friend if you give a copy!

Sure, PM me your email and I'll send a copy to you. :)

I noticed that Divine Surge seems a little powerful for a 4th-level maneuver, too, but I'm not sure what else it's supposed to be.

I think the people advising me to take Mountain Hammer are right - the really tough fights do tend to be the ones against monsters with DR, and it's good for smashing things too. It was a choice between that and Rabid Wolf Strike, but the DR-beating aspect of Mountain Hammer is probably better (I don't have Power Attack, which rules out Emerald Razor). Then I'll swap out Steely Strike for Wall of Blades at level 4.

- Saph

Snooder
2008-01-06, 05:26 AM
What's the actual damage suppose to be? It says 8d8 both on the maneuver itself and on the table.

yeah, but if you look at Greater Divine Surge, which is several levels higher, that only does 6d8. There's no errata out for ToB (probably cause 4e is right around the corner) but I have a feeling 4d8 is probably a more appropriate number.

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-06, 05:31 AM
yeah, but if you look at Greater Divine Surge, which is several levels higher, that only does 6d8. There's no errata out for ToB (probably cause 4e is right around the corner) but I have a feeling 4d8 is probably a more appropriate number.

But Greater Divine Surge also gives you that nice CON burn to deal extra d8s. With a Strongheart Vest and a few levels in an essentia class, you can do wonders with Greater Divine Surge.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-06, 06:09 AM
yeah, but if you look at Greater Divine Surge, which is several levels higher, that only does 6d8. There's no errata out for ToB (probably cause 4e is right around the corner) but I have a feeling 4d8 is probably a more appropriate number.

That's because Greater Divine Surge lets you burn CON to get AB and damage bonuses. It's one of the most powerful maneuvers--burn most of your CON, do huge damage, then follow up with Strike of Righteous Vitality and Heal all the CON damage.

Snooder
2008-01-06, 06:41 AM
That's because Greater Divine Surge lets you burn CON to get AB and damage bonuses. It's one of the most powerful maneuvers--burn most of your CON, do huge damage, then follow up with Strike of Righteous Vitality and Heal all the CON damage.

Oh sure, but there's no way that Divine Surge does 8d8 when the other manuevers of the same level do 4d6.

Even adding the con loss, that means that Greater Divine Surge needs to sack at least 2 points of con for the same effect as regular Divine Surge even though the greater version is several levels higher? Look at Mountain Hammer and Elder Mountain Hammer for comparison, the Elder has much higher base damage.