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Crow
2008-01-05, 11:41 PM
I often see the Druid bandied side by side with the Cleric as one of the most powerful classes there is, but when I look at each of them, it looks like the Cleric leaves the Druid way in the dust.

In Core, with the Druid's wildshape and full spellcasting it definately looks to be up there, probably even with the cleric, but still behind the wizard (is there something in Core that I'm missing?). When I look at splatbooks though, the Cleric skyrockets into epicness, and the Druid is still kinda the same. Hell, it seems the arcane spellcasters and the Cleric leave the "poor" Druid back in it's own tier of better than middle tier, but not quite on the top.

SilentNight
2008-01-05, 11:44 PM
[QUOTE=Crow;3753663]I often see the Druid bandied side by side with the Cleric as one of the most powerful classes there is, but when I look at each of them, it looks like the Cleric leaves the Druid way in the dust.

Two words:Pun-Pun. Look it up on the WoTC boards. Essentialy a kobold druid/master o' many forms can rule the universe. The sad part is he's only a CR 4.

Xefas
2008-01-05, 11:54 PM
[QUOTE=Crow;3753663]I often see the Druid bandied side by side with the Cleric as one of the most powerful classes there is, but when I look at each of them, it looks like the Cleric leaves the Druid way in the dust.

Two words:Pun-Pun. Look it up on the WoTC boards. Essentialy a kobold druid/master o' many forms can rule the universe. The sad part is he's only a CR 4.

Actually, Pun-Pun is a level 1 Wizard now, I believe.

Anyway, Druids are powerful because they can take Natural Spell (a core feat), and thus remain in a Wildshape form that is probably more capable than the core melee classes in and of itself, but also have full spellcasting while in the form.

I hear stuff like Apes are popular because they can easily wear humanoid magic items.

Crow
2008-01-05, 11:55 PM
So this is all about one build? I've checked out Pun-Pun, but never really bothered to look into him that much (something about it tells me if I knew the details it would ruin D&D for me...just kidding). I've heard that he pretty much has to be a Kobold all the time though, so maybe that has more to do with the Kobold rules loophole rather than the Druid class itself.

edit: I see what you're saying Xefas. As far as D&D brokeness, that isn't too far up the scale though. Bear in mind, I'm comparing it to Wizards and Clerics.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-05, 11:57 PM
I often see the Druid bandied side by side with the Cleric as one of the most powerful classes there is, but when I look at each of them, it looks like the Cleric leaves the Druid way in the dust.

In Core, with the Druid's wildshape and full spellcasting it definately looks to be up there, probably even with the cleric, but still behind the wizard (is there something in Core that I'm missing?). When I look at splatbooks though, the Cleric skyrockets into epicness, and the Druid is still kinda the same. Hell, it seems the arcane spellcasters and the Cleric leave the "poor" Druid back in it's own tier of better than middle tier, but not quite on the top.

The Spell Compendium makes the Druid's spellcasting two or three times as good at high levels. The no-save Greater Whirlwind denies multiple rounds of, pretty much, any actions whatsoever, quite possibly to multiple enemies. Bite of the Werebear gives "what-were-they-thinking" sized bonuses (+16 enhancement to strength?) as early as level 11. Enveloping Cocoon + Baleful Polymorph lets you target the Reflex save instead of the FOrt save with the BP... and Ref saves are generally weaker, often much weaker than Fort saves.

Monster Manuals add Wild Shape forms and animal companions. At low-mid levels, the Fleshraker is an absolute beast (so to speak).

SilentNight
2008-01-05, 11:58 PM
[QUOTE=Xefas;3753737]
Actually, Pun-Pun is a level 1 Wizard now, I believe.

Are you serious?! I can't even imagine how liberal a rules reading was required to make that work.

Nowhere Girl
2008-01-06, 12:00 AM
No, it's because the druid has an animal companion that can probably kill the fighter one-on-one (maybe not if the fighter is optimized). The druid can also Wild Shape into a form that can probably kill the fighter one-on-one. The druid also has a full spellcasting progression.

All three at the same time.

Honestly, I think you could break the druid into three separate classes, each with just one of those three features, and end up with three moderately competitive characters.

Suzuro
2008-01-06, 12:02 AM
something about it tells me if I knew the details it would ruin D&D for me...just kidding



I wouldn't joke so lightly about that....it really might....




-Suzuro

SadisticFishing
2008-01-06, 12:04 AM
Girallon's Blessing
Nature's Favor
Charge of the Triceratops
Enlarge Animal
Energy Immunity x5 (all)
Bite of the Werebear
Owl's Insight
Aura of Vitality
Brilliant Aura
Death Ward
Nature's Avatar
Superior Resistance
Evard's Menacing Tentacles

Dire Tiger sized and shaped Monk Belt, Amulet of Might Fists +5. Grab Power and Leap Attack.

That makes 10 natural (touch) attacks, each at +38 damage on top of an absolutely ridiculous strength score (something like 60). Note: Your animal companion does something like 90% of that damage to.

GG.

P.S. (edit): With a little bit of RAW instead of RAI (Wild Armor stacking with Monk Belt, as you're unarmored in wild shape), your AC is 71 if you started with 18 wisdom.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-06, 12:05 AM
Honestly, I think you could break the druid into three separate classes, each with just one of those three features, and end up with three moderately competitive characters.

Not really. Wild Shape is no Polymorph; on its own, it's kind of medicore. It's overpowered because it boosts the Druid's spellcasting and HP (by letting him only need WIS and CON), and combined with the Druid's buffs and spellcasting.

You could remove the animal companion or the Wild Shape and have perfectly good class (or remove the animal companion and change Wild Shape to give set bonuses, i.e. the PHB II Shapeshift variant), but removing spellcasting would make the Druid very weak.

Xefas
2008-01-06, 12:06 AM
So this is all about one build? I've checked out Pun-Pun, but never really bothered to look into him that much (something about it tells me if I knew the details it would ruin D&D for me...just kidding). I've heard that he pretty much has to be a Kobold all the time though, so maybe that has more to do with the Kobold rules loophole rather than the Druid class itself.

edit: I see what you're saying Xefas. As far as D&D brokeness, that isn't too far up the scale though. Bear in mind, I'm comparing it to Wizards and Clerics.

I think Pun-Pun just sells his first level Wizard spellbook and uses the money to buy an item that lets him get a Wish, and start an infinite loop. The original reason he was a kobold was because the guy who mad Pun-Pun wanted to prove to everyone that kobolds could be badass. You can use any race, really; it just requires an extra step to make you a reptile of some kind so you can get Sarrukh-power used on you.

Anyway, I totally agree: Wizards are way more powerful than Druids are. With Clerics, it's a bit more difficult to determine. Clerics can buff themselves to high heaven, but Druids can wildshape into a badass form, and then buff themselves to high heaven- so it comes down to who has the better buffs. Since more books come out with cleric spells, clerics may indeed be victorious.

But, I'm no expert...I'm sure one will be along shortly, though.

EDIT: :smalleek: huh...well, 6 people posted between the time I started typing this and when I posted it...I'm sure most of what I've said has become invalid.

Skjaldbakka
2008-01-06, 12:06 AM
Assets of the Druid:

-Animal Companion (almost as good as the fighter)
-Wildshape (enables stat-dumping of physicals, and makes the druid as good as the fighter at fighting)
-Full spellcasting- not as good as the cleric in core, but like all full spellcasters, has non-linear power gain, and exponential power increase from sourcebooks.


My knee-jerk assessment of Druid:
3/4 BAB? AND full spellcasting? Broken!

. . .

What do you mean it gets other stuff too?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-06, 12:08 AM
Frankly, I think the cleric trails behind the druid to a surprising degree, right up until he gets Miracle (emulate Giant Size, ugh) and unless you use DMM(persistent) (but then, it is possible for a Druid to wind up with Turn Undead).

Inyssius Tor
2008-01-06, 12:08 AM
Well, it's not so much that their spellcasting makes them great - although, compared to anyone who isn't a full caster, it does - it's that they get full casting, and the ability to wildshape into creatures that are more powerful than almost any melee character, and an animal companion that's better than any melee character at low-level and still pretty darn good later on.

To sum up:
Just no. I can't have this fight again. Kraaze, we need to start seeing other people. We just don't understand each other. It's not you, it's the cleric and druid's ability to fill two archetypical roles simultaneously as well as those they replace. It is tearing us apart.

I made you this mix tape of songs that describe exactly how I feel. Included are such tracks as "OMG I'm a Full Caster and Tank (and You Aren't)", "People Who Aren't Like Me (Die In One Spell)", and "I'm a Giant Bear Who Casts Spells."

You yourself said "they tend to fight almost as well as the fighters plus add healing and some nice offensive spells into the mix." Even if it's "almost" as well as fighters--they don't just have some nice offensive spells, they're full spellcasters. I hope you won't argue that Spellcasting Wins D&D. So these guys are full spellcasters, *and* fight at least almost as well as Fighters (and, in everyone else's opinion, better--maybe you're just playing them wrong?), *and* ... the Druid has an animal companion that's a significant melee presence on its own.

So, yeah--they can fight better than Fighters, and they're full casters (maybe not really good ones, but that just means they're Divine Rank 3 rather than 4), and they have a pretty powerful animal companion. And you can optimize all three features at once. In fact, you could remove two of those class features and they'd still be a powerful class.

EDIT: Wow, eight people posted between the time I started typing and the time I hit "Post".

Felius
2008-01-06, 12:09 AM
Remember that druid have also animal companions, besides casting and wildshaping.

Nowhere Girl
2008-01-06, 12:13 AM
Not really. Wild Shape is no Polymorph; on its own, it's kind of medicore. It's overpowered because it boosts the Druid's spellcasting and HP (by letting him only need WIS and CON), and combined with the Druid's buffs and spellcasting.

You could remove the animal companion or the Wild Shape and have perfectly good class (or remove the animal companion and change Wild Shape to give set bonuses, i.e. the PHB II Shapeshift variant), but removing spellcasting would make the Druid very weak.

Compared to a wizard or cleric, yes.

Would a druid with, say, just an animal companion, 3/4 BAB progression, the usual weapon and armor proficiencies, and the skills and other abilities (aside from Wild Shape and spellcasting) that druids all get really be weaker than, say, a fighter? Bearing in mind that even that druid is still, effectively, two characters?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-06, 12:13 AM
Just no. I can't have this fight again. Kraaze, we need to start seeing other people. We just don't understand each other. It's not you, it's the cleric and druid's ability to fill two archetypical roles simultaneously as well as those they replace. It is tearing us apart.

I made you this mix tape of songs that describe exactly how I feel. Included are such tracks as "OMG I'm a Full Caster and Tank (and You Aren't)", "People Who Aren't Like Me (Die In One Spell)", and "I'm a Giant Bear Who Casts Spells."

*dissolves into laughter* Wow, that's brilliant.



Compared to a wizard or cleric, yes.

Would a druid with, say, just an animal companion, 3/4 BAB progression, the usual weapon and armor proficiencies, and the skills and other abilities (aside from Wild Shape and spellcasting) that druids all get really be weaker than, say, a fighter? Bearing in mind that even that druid is still, effectively, two characters?
Yes. Yes, he would. C'mon, the animal companion is good when combined with Share Spell and buffs and some items, but it's not THAT good. It just puts the druid over-the-top. The druid with 3/4 BAB and no melee-related class features or buffs isn't going to be good at melee, so it's basically just the druid for skills and the companion for melee. That's... better than the TWFing Samurai, but c'mon.

Idea Man
2008-01-06, 12:14 AM
Pun-Pun is not possible with the Master of Many Forms build for one simple reason; it doesn't grant supernatural abilities. The original post is quite long, and I don't have all month to read it for corrections.

Pun-Pun at first level wizard is technically possible, if your DM is indulgent enough to actually let you call forth a demon lord, then beg a wish out of him, no questions asked. According to RAW, it could be done. Hopefully, no DM will actually allow a first level character a no-strings-attached wish ever.

The druid's main advantage is that they can turn into any animal within their power. This changes the physical stats, and leaves the mentals safe. Simply put your good rolls or point buy in your mentals, and let wild shape handle your physical stat needs.

SilentNight
2008-01-06, 12:17 AM
Pun-Pun is not possible with the Master of Many Forms build for one simple reason; it doesn't grant supernatural abilities. The original post is quite long, and I don't have all month to read it for corrections.
.
Is master o' many forms the original build? I couldn't remember so I guessed.

Draz74
2008-01-06, 12:20 AM
I believe the most modern Pun-Pun is actually a Level 1 Fallen Paladin. (Because his class features actually don't matter at all.) And no, Pun-Pun has never been even the tiniest part of the reason "Druids are Zilla."

Anyway, Druid spells in splatbooks don't really strike me as less-good than Cleric spells in splatbooks. I'm with the people that say the average Druid build is probably more powerful than the average Cleric build (at most levels, and using splatbooks). Although the most twinked-out Clerics may indeed beat the most twinked-out Druids.

Inyssius Tor
2008-01-06, 12:22 AM
Pun-Pun at first level wizard is technically possible, if your DM is indulgent enough to actually let you call forth a demon lord, then beg a wish out of him, no questions asked. According to RAW, it could be done. Hopefully, no DM will actually allow a first level character a no-strings-attached wish ever.
I heard of him as a first-level paladin--Pazuzu will always give a wish to a falling paladin.
Is master o' many forms the original build?No.
*dissolves into laughter* Wow, that's brilliant.Yeah, that was basically everyone's reaction back in '06. It was in a number of sigs for a long time; still makes me smile. :smallbiggrin:

Patashu
2008-01-06, 12:24 AM
Is master o' many forms the original build? I couldn't remember so I guessed.

The original one was 12 Psion IIRC

shadowdemon_lord
2008-01-06, 12:37 AM
No one has even gotten into the various wildshape enhancing feats/prestige classes that started in the epic level handbook and made their way down. Such as collossal, tiny (albeit not as useful), DRAGON, MAGICAL BEAST(can anyone say Cryohydra, Roper, or Tarrasque?), there are even ways to pull off being an outsider (let the cheese flow), hell there might be undead wildshapes somewhere that I've never heard of. Elemental wildshape is lamesauce compared to any of these beasts. (of course once casters hit level 17, wildshape becomes a joke as they all get access to shape change (unless you ban polymorph spells like most sane DM's)).

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-06, 12:40 AM
Although the most twinked-out Clerics may indeed beat the most twinked-out Druids.

Probably true. DMM(Persistent Spell) + Miracle = a cleric with +32 size and +16 enhancement to strength (persisted Miracles that emulate Giant Size and Bite of the Werebear, +16 size and +6 enhancement bonus to CON, +16 size and +5 enhancement to Natural Armor, Blind Fight and Power Attack for free, two claw attacks, Colossal size and the reach that comes with it, etc. up all day.

Edit: better yet, he's an Illumian with the two sigils that let them use STR for bonus spells, and he extends those spells, too. Now he's getting bonus spells based on his 60 to 70 STR.

Nowhere Girl
2008-01-06, 12:41 AM
Yes. Yes, he would. C'mon, the animal companion is good when combined with Share Spell and buffs and some items, but it's not THAT good. It just puts the druid over-the-top. The druid with 3/4 BAB and no melee-related class features or buffs isn't going to be good at melee, so it's basically just the druid for skills and the companion for melee. That's... better than the TWFing Samurai, but c'mon.

I'm not convinced. With 3/4 progression and a d8 hit die and all feats geared toward melee optimization? With just animal companion? I think you could potentially challenge a fighter.

All the fighter has over you is an average of 1 more hit point per level (20 more at level 20), an attack bonus that's higher by, at level 20, +5, better weapon proficiencies, better armor (but not by much, thanks to dragonscale), and, at level 20, 11 more feats, which are too weak individually even to be considered on the level of ordinary class features. You have a creature that, at many levels in your career, can have as many hit dice as you have levels.

More feats can be nice, but you don't necessarily need that many of them to do certain melee optimization tricks. Being a Leap Attacking Shock Trooper, for example, only takes four feats.

I don't know. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I'd have to see it in practice to believe it. :smalltongue:

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-06, 12:44 AM
I'm not convinced. With 3/4 progression and a d8 hit die and all feats geared toward melee optimization? With just animal companion? I think you could potentially challenge a fighter.

All the fighter has over you is an average of 1 more hit point per level (20 more at level 20), an attack bonus that's higher by, at level 20, +5, better weapon proficiencies, better armor (but not by much, thanks to dragonscale), and, at level 20, 11 more feats, which are too weak individually even to be considered on the level of ordinary class features. You have a creature that, at any given level, can have as many hit dice as you have levels.
Core only, you MIGHT have a point, but probably still don't. Full BAB, Imp. Trip/Disarm with a reach weapon, greater focus/spec, Outside of core, you are really underestimating combat feats.


More feats can be nice, but you don't necessarily need that many of them to do certain melee optimization tricks. Being a Leap Attacking Shock Trooper, for example, only takes four feats.
And the Fighter can be doing it at level 6 rather than level 12. He can also have Elusive Target to protect himself from Power Attack counter-hits at the same time, then pick up Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit and Combat Reflexes to hit back at his attackers for massive damage (as they say), drink a lot of enlarge potions and add Knockback to the bargain, add Combat Brute for Sundering Cleave and more power attack multipliers, and still fit in Steadfast Determination and have room for more.

Chronicled
2008-01-06, 12:48 AM
Yes. Yes, he would. C'mon, the animal companion is good when combined with Share Spell and buffs and some items, but it's not THAT good. It just puts the druid over-the-top. The druid with 3/4 BAB and no melee-related class features or buffs isn't going to be good at melee, so it's basically just the druid for skills and the companion for melee. That's... better than the TWFing Samurai, but c'mon.

It depends on the level. At the first couple levels, the druid could have a riding dog wearing armor that is just as strong as the fighter. At the same time, the druid could sit back with a ranged weapon (for the purpose of this example, it'll be an elf for the bow proficiency) and plunk away at the fighter while the dog attacks and trips him. Since a duel isn't the best way to resolve these things, the same applies for any monster the druid is facing.


Core only, you MIGHT have a point, but probably still don't. Outside of core, you are really underestimating combat feats.

And the Fighter can be doing it at level 6 rather than level 12. He can also have Elusive Target to protect himself from Power Attack counter-hits at the same time, then pick up Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit and Combat Reflexes to hit back at his attackers for massive damage (as they say), drink a lot of enlarge potions and add Knockback to the bargain, add Combat Brute for Sundering Cleave and more power attack multipliers, and still fit in Steadfast Determination and have room for more.

Outside of core, there's the Fleshraker dinosaur and its ilk. Keep in mind, the druid can get a new meatshield just by spending 24 hours in prayer. The companion's expendable nature is a great advantage.

Fawsto
2008-01-06, 01:00 AM
There is the "Anti-druid" who takes undead wildshape...

Damn, Druids are cheese, they just need 1 stat: Wisdom. After some levels theyr other stats are just irrelevant.

If there is MAD, probably Druids are the SAD. Single Ability Dependent. If I could just take theyr wildshaping away, it'd be sooooo nice...

You know, my group is playing right now with this Party: Leoric <me> (Fighter 2/ Paladin 1), Forrest Storm (Druid 3), Madaleine (Cleric 3), Sir Muresco (Knight 2) and a few other players, but these ones are the guys who played last time (today).

What happens? The druid is mostly overkilling everything by summonig Hipogryffs (with +4 to Str and Con due to feat) and several Wolves (not exceding maximum never). While I, as the primary meleer have a kill count of 25, the Druid is coming close to 20... And increasing very fast... I am afraid that by the time I take Kensai (Fighter 2, Paladin 10, Kensai 8) the straight Druid 20 will be overwhlming things around the battlefield and I and the Knight will stay put while XP rogging...

horseboy
2008-01-06, 01:01 AM
Compared to a wizard or cleric, yes.

Would a druid with, say, just an animal companion, 3/4 BAB progression, the usual weapon and armor proficiencies, and the skills and other abilities (aside from Wild Shape and spellcasting) that druids all get really be weaker than, say, a fighter? Bearing in mind that even that druid is still, effectively, two characters?
I believe what you're aiming for is the ranger.

Fawsto
2008-01-06, 01:04 AM
There is the "Anti-druid" who takes undead wildshape...

Damn, Druids are cheese, they just need 1 stat: Wisdom. After some levels theyr other stats are just irrelevant.

If there is MAD, probably Druids are the SAD. Single Ability Dependent. If I could just take theyr wildshaping away, it'd be sooooo nice...

You know, my group is playing right now with this Party: Leoric <me> (Fighter 2/ Paladin 1), Forrest Storm (Druid 3), Madaleine (Cleric 3), Sir Muresco (Knight 2) and a few other players, but these ones are the guys who played last time (today).

What happens? The druid is mostly overkilling everything by summonig Hipogryffs (with +4 to Str and Con due to feat) and several Wolves (not exceding maximum never). While I, as the primary meleer have a kill count of 25, the Druid is coming close to 20... And increasing very fast... I am afraid that by the time I take Kensai (Fighter 2, Paladin 10, Kensai 8) the straight Druid 20 will be overwhlming things around the battlefield and I and the Knight will stay put while XP rogging...

Skjaldbakka
2008-01-06, 02:24 AM
Actually, CON is important too. IIRC, con change from polymorph doesn't effect your HP in 3.5

Draz74
2008-01-06, 02:47 AM
If there is MAD, probably Druids are the SAD. Single Ability Dependent. If I could just take theyr wildshaping away, it'd be sooooo nice...

PHB II. Shapeshift variant. Makes them pretty weak (for full casters :smalltongue:), while still very flavorful.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-01-06, 03:20 AM
Oh right, Summon Natures Ally. God Druids don't even have to embrace wildshaping natural spell cheese and sickeningly powerful animal companions to rock your socks. Hell I've heard of druids swarming enough hippogrpyhs to take down young adult green dragons. At higher levels you can insta grapple any character in range of your summon spells by putting a giant constrictor snake right next to them (meanwhile the enemy meleers have been encased in a wall of thorns). Druids are friggen wrong.

Aquillion
2008-01-06, 03:37 AM
Don't forget: In addition to how useful it is, a druid's animal companion is relatively expendable (compared to, say, a familiar or a Paladin's mount, which carry heavy penalties if they die). A druid can replace an animal companion with just 24 hours downtime... not always perfectly, since any tricks you trained it have to be relearned, but often you'll be replacing it with something better anyway.

(Oh. One thing: Most DMs let druids control their animal companions like a second character in combat. This makes druids rather more powerful and is, technically, non-RAW; animal companions are supposed to behave like friendly animals, not people.)

mostlyharmful
2008-01-06, 11:32 AM
Couple more points,
- Summon NA spells > Summon Mon on average
- Share spells + expendable meatshield = Wooooo!!
- fullcaster with plenty of normal spells and some kooky ones that Druid's the only way to get to so you can supply the standerd buff+debuff suite and add on fun stuff to synergize with a fellow caster.
- spontanious summons means flexibility in spell lists and responses, less than a sorc but lots more than a wiz or cleric (cures being mostly from wands beyound 3rd level)
- a range of other fun class abilities which all synergize well with wilderness survival and sneaking about, all available at a lower level than the monk dispite it being about all the monk gets
- a pretty good spell list, decent access to aromour (once you go Dragonscale or Ironwood) and a good skill list

Saph
2008-01-06, 11:57 AM
Here's a level by level analysis of why the druid's so good:

Level 1+: Animal companion that's comparable to a fighter. Share Spells feature.

Level 1+: Full spellcasting, automatic access to all his spells.

Level 3+: Summon spells start getting good at this point. With Augment Summoning, Summon Nature's Ally spells are killers.

Level 5+: Wild Shape. Now the druid can get his choice of an 18 Strength, flight, swimming, pouncing, and various other abilities, whenever he wants.

Level 6+: Natural Spell. Now you get to do the spellcasting and the wildshaping at once.

Level 8+: Large Wild Shape. This means Dire Lion, Dire Bat, Brown Bear, and several other forms with huge Strength scores.

Level 9+: Animal Growth. Summon several creatures, then cast this on them and your animal companion all together. This will kill pretty much any CR-appropriate melee enemy.

Each one of these things is good on its own, but what makes Druids so unbelievably powerful and versatile is that they can do them all at once. So at level 10, you have a squad of summoned animals, each of which is augmented and Animal Growthed to nigh-ridiculous levels, your companion, which is also buffed and growthed, your own Wild Shape form, which is quite lethal all on its own . . . and on top of that you have your other spells. You're literally a one-man army.

Oh, and you get a decent HD and good saving throws. And some animal- and nature-related abilities. And you get immunity to poison. And you get 4 skill points per level and a good skill list. You know, just in case you needed a little extra.

And that's without going outside Core. Once you start adding in Fleshrakers, Bite-of-the-X spells, and Venomfire, the druid just gets plain stupid.

Honestly, I think the druid is arguably the most powerful class in the entire game. Wizards may be stronger at high level, but the druid is awesome at every level, from 1 all the way up to 20.

- Saph

Signmaker
2008-01-06, 12:17 PM
Honestly, I think the druid is arguably the most powerful class in the entire game. Wizards may be stronger at high level, but the druid is awesome at every level, from 1 all the way up to 20.

- Saph

I'm going to agree with you, mainly on terms of math.

This will be a pretty dumbed down argument, but I think it makes a nice deal of sense.

Here is druid. Druid is increasingly powerful at each level, gaining new abilities, spells, and general kickassiness at a relatively straight rate.

He will be defined by, hmm, I guess y=5x. (Just a random coefficient, but it'll have a point later.)

Here is wizard. He needs quite the bit of shielding at the first few levels, but don't worry, his weak backside is going to harbor some massively potent power. He grows at an exponential rate rather than a straight rate.

He will be defined by, hmm, I guess y=x^2 (Again, coefficient doesn't matter)

Now. In terms of one class being 'better' than another, one cannot simply look at the end results. Obviously, due to the exponential progression of the wizard, he will soon outclass the majority of classes. The druid, however, will only improve by his coefficient per level, which provides a solidly survivable class.

Understanding that the wizard must depend on his allies at lower levels just to survive (please, correct me if I'm wrong), his overall potency is called in to question when compared to the druid. Sure, he can bend the universe to his desires at 20th level, BUT, will he even survive long enough to begin to reach that state?

On the other side, the druid, basically being two bodies and one mind, with the melee and mystic potential to aid the party, has always been a bit of a soloist. It is comparatively comfortable to have the druid take his own squadron of enemies down without worrying about his keister getting kicked.

There's the goal, and then there's the journey.

So, in terms of 'goal', wizard wins. In terms of 'journey', the druid wins.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-06, 12:46 PM
I'm going to agree with you, mainly on terms of math.

This will be a pretty dumbed down argument, but I think it makes a nice deal of sense.

Here is druid. Druid is increasingly powerful at each level, gaining new abilities, spells, and general kickassiness at a relatively straight rate.

He will be defined by, hmm, I guess y=5x. (Just a random coefficient, but it'll have a point later.)

Here is wizard. He needs quite the bit of shielding at the first few levels, but don't worry, his weak backside is going to harbor some massively potent power. He grows at an exponential rate rather than a straight rate.

He will be defined by, hmm, I guess y=x^2 (Again, coefficient doesn't matter)

Now. In terms of one class being 'better' than another, one cannot simply look at the end results. Obviously, due to the exponential progression of the wizard, he will soon outclass the majority of classes. The druid, however, will only improve by his coefficient per level, which provides a solidly survivable class.

Understanding that the wizard must depend on his allies at lower levels just to survive (please, correct me if I'm wrong), his overall potency is called in to question when compared to the druid. Sure, he can bend the universe to his desires at 20th level, BUT, will he even survive long enough to begin to reach that state?

On the other side, the druid, basically being two bodies and one mind, with the melee and mystic potential to aid the party, has always been a bit of a soloist. It is comparatively comfortable to have the druid take his own squadron of enemies down without worrying about his keister getting kicked.

There's the goal, and then there's the journey.

So, in terms of 'goal', wizard wins. In terms of 'journey', the druid wins.

The dangerous time for wizards is actually (surprisingly enough) when everyone else is balanced - before then, they can just colour spray everything into the ground, and after, they're batman.

Gardakan
2008-01-06, 01:16 PM
Some of you show combo that are very obvious... but the time to cast all the spells is too long. In that's time the warriror can charge and do 8 attacks... in the second round he do 13 attacks... so the druid is powerful... but not with spells... at natural(game words...)

Jerthanis
2008-01-06, 01:32 PM
I'm of two opinions on Druids... I can see their overpoweredness on paper. I understand their ability to adapt to situations monstrously well, and I understand that spellcasting is amazingly useful in D&D... but I've run and played several Druids and I would have never even noticed them being even moderately strong without reading these forums as extensively as I do. Meanwhile, Clerics were immediately recognized among our group as a power class, as early as when we cracked the 3.0 PHB for the first time. Of course, when not being the Heal-bot in 2nd edition they were almost as good.

Part of this I'm sure comes from the fact that I run and play games solidly in only 2nd-9th levels, and this means 4th level spells are the most powerful you're likely to see for more than one or two sessions. This isn't much of a problem with Wizards or Clerics, whose spell lists are made of distilled win, but Druid spell lists are problematic to me. They don't buff the party as well as other spellcasters, their mobility and personal defense spells are very limited, and they're missing some of the most useful utility spells. The only area their spells really shine is in damage spells, and one, maybe two good save-or-loses and even then they come up short of wizards. They're called full casters, but really, they take a LONG time to get going on the casting angle.

Then there's the Wildshaping... which is only ever going to be a problem if the player goes to a huge amount of trouble to find the best animals in the various Monster Manuals. A casual D&D player might stumble on the fact that crocodiles make pretty good grapplers, but they might also find bears are actually not very good at melee at all. A more dedicated student of Min/Maxing-fu can certainly find animals that are stupidly powerful, but it's easy enough for a DM to say, "Listen McDruidicus, the designers clearly weren't thinking of PCs when they statted up the Fleshraker dino, pick something else." and arbitrate on a case-by-case basis. You could turn into a bird and fly to avoid melee threats, but since the Druid is secondary melee capable, (with d8 HP, no MAD so high Con, and decent armor) it's not as vital for them to avoid melee threats as it would be for Sorc/Wiz, so then there's the fact that they can turn into a stealth-capable animal and replace the rogue... but I'm not sure there exists an animal capable of duplicating the skill levels of a Halfling Rogue (waits to be proven wrong), so that can't be a huge balance issue in itself.

Then there's the Animal companion, which I must admit, is as good as everyone makes it out to be. In D&D the economy of actions is the quickest cap to a person's power, and as low as level 1, a Druid has two effective action taking platforms. It's one of the reasons I've disallowed Leadership (the other reason: I once approved an Artificer Cohort... I swear I thought it was a good idea at the time.) in my games. The Animal companion is going to be 5/8ths the warrior your frontliner will be while unbuffed, and then while buffed will at least equal him. The only real disadvantage to this is that often it's less fun to watch the DM move minis around the map and roll dice than doing so yourself.

So basically, I see the potential for Druids to be obscene, and where Clerics are obscene in a way where it's tremendously easy for them to be obscene in a teamwork fashion, Druids are very selfish in their cheese, summoning animals to help their animal companion and buffing their animals... bogging down combat with a menagerie of extras. Still, Druid cheese is buried beneath the bookkeeping of discovering the worthwhile animals to Wildshape/summon/Animal companion, the extra headache of all those extra factors being crunched through mechanically in the middle of combat, and the factor that DMs moving the animals and so on is not so fun... What I'm saying is that Druids aren't as broken as Clerics in our group because they aren't nearly as fun.

Jerthanis
2008-01-06, 01:58 PM
Drat, accidental double post.

Arbitrarity
2008-01-06, 06:14 PM
Pun-Pun is not possible with the Master of Many Forms build for one simple reason; it doesn't grant supernatural abilities. The original post is quite long, and I don't have all month to read it for corrections.


*coughassumesupernaturalability(manipulateform)cou gh*

Of course, like any character, druid can be underpowered. We have a druid in our group, whose tactic involves turning into a swallow (I think it's European) and smacking things with call lightning. Animal companion? Forgotten. Spellcasting? DD. Wildshape? Birdie!

the_tick_rules
2008-01-06, 06:20 PM
as some people have said above it's basically they can summon other monsters to distract/attack the enemies, shapeshift and to a bunch of stuff himself and have a spell arsenal.

Saph
2008-01-06, 07:38 PM
So basically, I see the potential for Druids to be obscene, and where Clerics are obscene in a way where it's tremendously easy for them to be obscene in a teamwork fashion, Druids are very selfish in their cheese, summoning animals to help their animal companion and buffing their animals... bogging down combat with a menagerie of extras. Still, Druid cheese is buried beneath the bookkeeping of discovering the worthwhile animals to Wildshape/summon/Animal companion, the extra headache of all those extra factors being crunched through mechanically in the middle of combat, and the factor that DMs moving the animals and so on is not so fun... What I'm saying is that Druids aren't as broken as Clerics in our group because they aren't nearly as fun.

Eh, it's a preference thing, I guess.

Personally, I find my core-only druid a touch more powerful than a core-only cleric, because of the diversity of animals I can use. I've got a sheet of A4 with the key stats for all the important animals I can summon, which means it doesn't slow down the game at all. On average, I finish my turn faster than most other players, because I don't have to look things up and they do.

The animals add a huge amount of power to our party - at several levels I literally was as strong as the rest of the party combined. But we're playing in the World's Largest Dungeon, and the fights we're going up against are often just plain unfair in the first place (one of the fights was against fiftyish 1st- and 2nd-level goblin warriors using barricades and fire, several goblin sergeants, two goblin spellcasters, three mutated hammer-fisted aberration-tank things, and a gray render . . . and we were 5th-6th level). Without the extra fighting power of my summons, we wouldn't have lasted very long.

As for being selfish . . . the animals soak up attacks and draw attention away from the party front-liners. On a dozen or so occasions they've made the difference between a PC dying and surviving. Let's just say I haven't had any complaints.

(At the moment we're fighting through a drider-infested sub-dungeon and we're on our 6th or 7th encounter of the day. A normal spellcaster would be out of spells and hiding by this point, but since I'm a Druid I'm in Dire Lion form and fighting quite happily in the front rank with the melee characters, saving my remaining summons for emergencies. I'm having great fun.)

- Saph

Artanis
2008-01-06, 07:58 PM
What I'm saying is that Druids aren't as broken as Clerics in our group because they aren't nearly as fun.
I think "two wrongs don't make a right" should apply in this case. Not being any fun to play is a crappy way to try to balance something that is brokenly powerful for the masochists who enjoy playing it (regardless of what that something is, whether it be Druids, Clerics, Wizards, or whatever else might be the topic of just such a discussion).

Signmaker
2008-01-06, 09:04 PM
Of course, like any character, druid can be underpowered. We have a druid in our group, whose tactic involves turning into a swallow (I think it's European) and smacking things with call lightning. Animal companion? Forgotten. Spellcasting? DD. Wildshape? Birdie!

What's its minimum air velocity when unladen?

nerulean
2008-01-06, 09:08 PM
Personally, I find druids much more fun to play than clerics. Our group generally has to scrounge to find a cleric, whereas if you ask for a druid you'll get several volunteers.

The thing about the druid that I find is that he just always has something more.

At first level, he has something more than the rest of the party in that he's controlling a second character who is likely as good as or better than your front-liner.

At fifth level, he has something more in that he can turn into a front-liner if he's out of spells.

At sixth, he can be a front-liner and still be casting spells.

These "something more"s don't replace one another, though, they add to one another. You can play a druid badly, but your average person who picks up a PHB will come up with something competitive without trying too hard at all.

Worira
2008-01-06, 11:17 PM
Well, put simply:

http://www.superdickery.com/images/other/Image8.jpg

Goddamn druids.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-01-06, 11:22 PM
Ah, low level wizards win cause they can colorspray the crap outta things? Well Druids can entangle things. Entangle lasts for a minute per level, has a better area of effect then colorspray, targets a save that less classes are good at, is incredibly difficult to escape, forces a resave even if you make the DC 20 full round escape artists/strength check. As a third level spell they can drop spike growth, which punish you for moving, are completely invisible untill detected, and can cut peoples movement in half. Again the duration is ridicoulous at an hour per level. Oh and it's area of effect is downright huge. Once we hit fifth level spells, we've got the almight wall of thorns. Druids have amazing battlefield control on top of everything else.

Varnithis
2008-01-06, 11:25 PM
Well, put simply:

(Batman Picture)

Goddamn druids.

Post of the Year.

*chokes to death laughing*

littlechicory
2008-01-06, 11:45 PM
My knee-jerk assessment of Druid:
3/4 BAB? AND full spellcasting? Broken!

. . .

What do you mean it gets other stuff too?

I AGREE WITH THIS COMMENT

ETA:

Well, put simply:

*image from Superdickery*

Goddamn druids.

OH GOD. I CAN'T UNSEE IT. *scrubs eyes with brain bleach*