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Citizen Jenkins
2008-01-06, 09:13 AM
or "Why Bruce Wayne is a billionaire"

I'll be joining a level 7 campaign as a Master Specialist necromancer (focusing on debuffing and utility magic) in a few weeks. During character creation I talked with my DM about rounding out my spellbook and we agreed that I would simply buy additional spells as scrolls and add them to my spellbook. I figured between using collegiate wizard and Boccob's Blessed Book, I'd have enough spells to Batman properly without breaking the bank.

What struck me is that even without expanding my fourth level spells, I'm expecting to drop 6,000 gold, or about a third of my total wealth, on spells. A good example is second level spells. After adding together a few debuffs (like Blindness/Deafness, Escalating Enfeeblement) with a few buffs (Bull's Strength and it's ilk, False Life, Alter Self) plus divination (Locate Object, Detect Thoughts, See Invisibility) and the necessary utility spells (Rope Trick, Spider Climb, Invisibility) and a few spells for fun I was looking at over twenty spells. At 150 GP a pop, that added up to 3,000 and only 8 more 3rd level spells doubled that. Collegiate wizard helped but I also wasn't picking up any blasting or enchantment spells (banned) or summoning spells (not really appropriate for the character). Add in the cost of a spellbook (either 100+ pages at 100 GP a page or 6,250 to craft your own Boccob' book) and even a penny-pinching wizard will be strapped to afford any other gear. Crafting your own gear helps but then XP becomes a real concern. I honestly wonder how a generalist wizard with a regular spellbook could hope to have a broad selection of spells, even sticking to core.

I'm presuming most of you don't use this kind of system for purchasing spells in your games but I'm wondering what kind of value you put on spells for purposes of WBL. For example, how much gold is a 2nd level spell, or the chance to inscribe it, worth? Do you bother to calculate it or just consider it part of the character? And finally, since I haven't seen any other RAW mechanic for acquiring spells besides leveling, how does the famed Batman wizard pay for all his spells (so he always knows the perfect spell for the situation) and still have any decent equipment while following RAW? Does Batman just show up in ratty pajamas with a full spellbook?

Saph
2008-01-06, 09:24 AM
I'm presuming most of you don't use this kind of system for purchasing spells in your games.

Yes, yes we do. :P

Wizard spells are powerful. Powerful things are expensive. Look at it this way: you're paying a few hundred gold to get that second-level spell in your spellbook, but once it's there you can cast it forever, day after day. If you bought a potion of that same second-level spell, it would cost 300 gold, be made at minimum CL, and you could only use it once.


For example, how much gold is a 2nd level spell, or the chance to inscribe it, worth?

It's in the Magic chapter under 'Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook' (you can read it in the online SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook)) . It costs 50 GP x level of spell. So 100 for a second-level spell, plus 200 to scribe it into your spellbook - a Blessed Book takes care of that last part, but that costs 12,500 GP, which means a BBB actually loses you money in the short term (it's a long term investment). It may not seem that way, but this is a good thing. It means that Wizards have to think, "Do I want to buy the BBB now for the long term savings, or just go with a few extra spells and be more powerful in the short term?"


Do you bother to calculate it or just consider it part of the character? And finally, since I haven't seen any other RAW mechanic for acquiring spells besides leveling, how does the famed Batman wizard pay for all his spells (so he always knows the perfect spell for the situation) and still have any decent equipment while following RAW? Does Batman just show up in ratty pajamas with a full spellbook?

At low levels, yeah, usually.

At medium levels, you can get the spells you want, but you're going to have not-as-good gear in other departments.

At high levels, the cost per spell is trivial, so you can have every spell under the sun and still have vast sums left over. By a funny coincidence, at high levels, wizards are extremely overpowered. Notice the cause and effect relationship here? :P

Basically, your spells known should be limited. It's one of the caps on a wizard's power that stops them being completely unstoppable. The point at which you're so wealthy that it stops being an issue is also the point at which wizards become game-breakingly powerful.

- Saph

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-06, 09:28 AM
Remember - every character at level 7 has fought their way up from level 1, and has almost certainly found a few scrolls to scribe from during that time.

This was actually the way that BWL (RIP) and Tippy's batman wizards acquire most of their spells, actually - they use divinations to find places rich in scrolls and then launch overwhelming magical attacks against them.

Saph
2008-01-06, 09:33 AM
Remember - every character at level 7 has fought their way up from level 1, and has almost certainly found a few scrolls to scribe from during that time.

That's what your WBL represents.

WBL is there for a reason. You are not allowed to just say that your character has found all the scrolls he needs, any more than the elf cleric is allowed to say that he starts with 1,000,000 extra GP from having sold healing spells at the temple for 200 years.

If you do decide that wizards should have unlimited spells known, it's your choice, but don't come complaining when your party's 6th-level wizard one-shots the BBEG.

- Saph

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-06, 09:54 AM
That's what your WBL represents.

WBL is there for a reason. You are not allowed to just say that your character has found all the scrolls he needs, any more than the elf cleric is allowed to say that he starts with 1,000,000 extra GP from having sold healing spells at the temple for 200 years.

If you do decide that wizards should have unlimited spells known, it's your choice, but don't come complaining when your party's 6th-level wizard one-shots the BBEG.

- Saph

Whoops, forgot about WBL, but


You are not allowed to just say that your character has found all the scrolls he needs.

Is a misrepresentation of what I was saying. When I GM, wizards normally get ~1-2 spells per level worth of randomly determined spells. You don't choose what loot you find.

Saph
2008-01-06, 09:59 AM
Is a misrepresentation of what I was saying. When I GM, wizards normally get ~1-2 spells per level worth of randomly determined spells. You don't choose what loot you find.

Ah, I see what you mean. Makes sense.

The 'finding scrolls' thing doesn't work as well in 3.5 D&D as it used to in the older editions, though, at least not at higher levels. A 5th-level scroll costs 1,125 gold. The copying fee for getting a 5th-level spell from another wizard is 250 gold. So if you find high-level scrolls, it's really tempting to just sell them (or keep them) and go shopping for the spells you want instead.

- Saph

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-06, 10:02 AM
Ah, I see what you mean. Makes sense.

The 'finding scrolls' thing doesn't work as well in 3.5 D&D as it used to in the older editions, though, at least not at higher levels. A 5th-level scroll costs 1,125 gold. The copying fee for getting a 5th-level spell from another wizard is 250 gold. So if you find high-level scrolls, it's really tempting to just sell them (or keep them) and go shopping for the spells you want instead.

- Saph

Which is why the whole DnD economy makes no sense at all. It would make an interesting campaign though - wizards vs. freedom of information pirating sorcerers ... hmm.

Ne0
2008-01-06, 10:12 AM
Which is why the whole DnD economy makes no sense at all.

Quite literally this time: A wizard did it. :smallbiggrin:

Felius
2008-01-06, 08:53 PM
Actually, if you see it like a modified software industry it make some sense.

Buying a scroll is like buying a working program plus the source. Buying a potion would be a program without the source.

When buying the scroll, you could copy it and make new similar programs from it. You can also buy only the source and make similar programs, for a cheaper price, but you couldn't use it from the shell, you would need to study it, prepare the similar program you want, then run it.

(Also I never said it was a good analogy. :P)

Riffington
2008-01-06, 09:26 PM
Scrolls are fairly priced. They are useful to almost anyone. They take a lot of time to create. They cost the scriber XP. You should generally see them sold for about listed price.

The opportunity to scribe a spell from a wizard's notebook... would be campaign dependent. It costs the seller nothing, except that it gives a potential rival tremendous power. So if there are very few wizards, the price should be high. If there are a lot, the price should be very low... if I know that young Tim over there is going to buy fireball no matter what - either from me or from Merlin across the street -, then I would be eager to sell it at a day's pay for me.

Game balance requires that spells be expensive. Economics says it is highly dependent on the size of the market. Felius' source code reference is actually a decent analogy.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-06, 10:01 PM
Actually, if you see it like a modified software industry it make some sense.

Buying a scroll is like buying a working program plus the source. Buying a potion would be a program without the source.

When buying the scroll, you could copy it and make new similar programs from it. You can also buy only the source and make similar programs, for a cheaper price, but you couldn't use it from the shell, you would need to study it, prepare the similar program you want, then run it.

(Also I never said it was a good analogy. :P)
Try this one on for size - a little something I wrote up a while back:
For the most part, Wizard's can't touch magic directly. Sure, they can do a few things every here and there, and they can apply mystic energy.... but mostly, they're stuck powering the awkward "magical circutry" which is their spellbook. Apply energy here, here, and here for fifteen minutes, putting a variance in the energy then to control certain options, and the painted "circuts" manipulate the energies into an energy packet which can then be picked up and maintained with almost no effort. In a scroll, the energy packet is tied to the parchment; the spellcraft roll to copy represents figuring out how that particular packet of energy was shaped; the spellcraft roll to familiarize yourself with it for later casting represents tracking down which tabs for triggering are appropriet; the caster level check for activating a scroll with a caster level higher than yours represents seeing if you can manage the force needed to activate the stored spell. When using a borrowed spellbook, the Spellcraft check represents tracking down where to apply energy properly (they don't come with instructions) and how to pick up the resultant packet. The Wizard doesn't so much cast a spell as build and invoke one. It's something he picks up and uses, not something that's a part of him. This explaination also covers why it takes a 20th level specialist Wizard with in excess of fifty spell slots and 227.5 spell levels (counting 0th level spells as half a level) a full fifteen minutes to prepare a cantrip in an empty slot; fifteen minutes is the minimum needed to run and retreive a "spell program"; it's just that the Wizard is capable of running more than one such at a time, so he can run (prepare) his fifty spells in an hour. As a bonus, this explains why scribing a spell into a spellbook is expensive - the wizard is painting magical circutry onto the pages... possibly using things like gold and platinum directly.

A Sorcerer's magic is virtually a part of him. He touches it directly and shapes it through raw mystic force. Like most cases of the biological vs. the mechanical, it's a lot more effecient; the spell a Wizard takes fifteen minutes to put together via his spellbook, a Sorcerer sets up in one standard action. The downside, though, is that it's a lot less flexible. He can only put his impromptu packets together in so many ways, as he has to remember them all personally (they are partially instinctive, but do require practice and expirimentation). He can do it more often, though, as he only has to gather a pool of energy, there's less maintenence involved in holding an energy pool together than there is in trickle-charging a bunch of spell packets.

The bard constructs his spells on the fly, similar to how a Sorcerer does. But in the Bard's case, he's using verbal memory tricks to remind himself of exactly how the spell goes, in a musically "learned" fasion, rather than drawing on instinct. He's got a lot of other things to focus on, though, and doesn't have quite the energy to apply to packet-making as the Wizard or Sorcerer.

A Divine spellcaster gets these packets handed down pre-made; the Cleric need only invoke them (Causes, if permitted, are [quasi-]dieties under this Theory of Magic; perhaps Causes are what the dieties were originally born of, or there's an awful lot of dieties out there and you don't actually need a diety's name to pray to one [and thus a Cause cleric is actually getting spells granted by a diety who's name he doesn't know] - it is techncially possible for a Cleric to have no ranks in Knoweledge(Religion), after all - or whatever).

The verbal and somatic components of spells are not all the same - that's why you need a Spellcraft check to identify a spell as it's being cast. Each Wizard sets up a slightly different trigger mechanism - and, indeed, sets up slightly different trigger mechanisims even for copies of the same spell, so he doesn't fumble two spells trying to supply the right bit of extra push to the same triggers and coming up short (the Quicken Spell metamagic feat partially revolves around aranging for less "push" and redundant triggers). Much of the Spellcraft check to identify a spell on the fly is involved in tracking the energies as they come into play in order to predict the final result; the energy packet has something of an effect on the outside world while it's still being given that final push.

Spellcasters need the material and focus components because some energy packets require a pattern to draw off of; there's a little more information needed to finish the effect than can be easily contained in the energy packet (in the case of "complex" material or focus components, such as a live spider or a cocoon; Eschew Materials aleviates the need for some of it by putting a bit more info into the spell); others require something physical for a slight boost in energy or focus (for "simple" components like the copper coin for Detect Thoughts or the copper wire for Sending; Eschew Materials aleviates the need for some of it by putting a bit more force or focus into the spell). Sorcerers still need them because sometimes, there's just too much to remember, or some of it really does need to be channeled outside the body, for whatever reason. Other components are either a source of energy to power certain portions of the spell that are only quasi-magical in and of themselves, a bribe of sorts to certain forces,
or even a form of insulation against backlash. A divine caster avoids the need for most such trappings with help from above... but there are limits to what they can be bothered to do for their followers.

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-06, 10:18 PM
There's a feat rolling around that allows a wizard gaining new spells to gain his intelligence modifier instead of the usual 2. It's from a 3rd-party book though, and we all know what happens if you start letting those in.

At any rate, it's called Arcane Understanding and it's in the 'Ultimate Feats' book. A wizard with the appropriate skill ranks can take it at level 2. If you're allowed to, it's going to save you quite a bit of dough.

Chronicled
2008-01-06, 10:49 PM
Try this one on for size - a little something I wrote up a while back:
For the most part, Wizard's can't touch magic directly. Sure, they can do a few things every here and there, and they can apply mystic energy.... but mostly, they're stuck powering the awkward "magical circutry" which is their spellbook. Apply energy here, here, and here for fifteen minutes, putting a variance in the energy then to control certain options, and the painted "circuts" manipulate the energies into an energy packet which can then be picked up and maintained with almost no effort. In a scroll, the energy packet is tied to the parchment; the spellcraft roll to copy represents figuring out how that particular packet of energy was shaped; the spellcraft roll to familiarize yourself with it for later casting represents tracking down which tabs for triggering are appropriet; the caster level check for activating a scroll with a caster level higher than yours represents seeing if you can manage the force needed to activate the stored spell. When using a borrowed spellbook, the Spellcraft check represents tracking down where to apply energy properly (they don't come with instructions) and how to pick up the resultant packet. The Wizard doesn't so much cast a spell as build and invoke one. It's something he picks up and uses, not something that's a part of him. This explaination also covers why it takes a 20th level specialist Wizard with in excess of fifty spell slots and 227.5 spell levels (counting 0th level spells as half a level) a full fifteen minutes to prepare a cantrip in an empty slot; fifteen minutes is the minimum needed to run and retreive a "spell program"; it's just that the Wizard is capable of running more than one such at a time, so he can run (prepare) his fifty spells in an hour. As a bonus, this explains why scribing a spell into a spellbook is expensive - the wizard is painting magical circutry onto the pages... possibly using things like gold and platinum directly.

A Sorcerer's magic is virtually a part of him. He touches it directly and shapes it through raw mystic force. Like most cases of the biological vs. the mechanical, it's a lot more effecient; the spell a Wizard takes fifteen minutes to put together via his spellbook, a Sorcerer sets up in one standard action. The downside, though, is that it's a lot less flexible. He can only put his impromptu packets together in so many ways, as he has to remember them all personally (they are partially instinctive, but do require practice and expirimentation). He can do it more often, though, as he only has to gather a pool of energy, there's less maintenence involved in holding an energy pool together than there is in trickle-charging a bunch of spell packets.

The bard constructs his spells on the fly, similar to how a Sorcerer does. But in the Bard's case, he's using verbal memory tricks to remind himself of exactly how the spell goes, in a musically "learned" fasion, rather than drawing on instinct. He's got a lot of other things to focus on, though, and doesn't have quite the energy to apply to packet-making as the Wizard or Sorcerer.

A Divine spellcaster gets these packets handed down pre-made; the Cleric need only invoke them (Causes, if permitted, are [quasi-]dieties under this Theory of Magic; perhaps Causes are what the dieties were originally born of, or there's an awful lot of dieties out there and you don't actually need a diety's name to pray to one [and thus a Cause cleric is actually getting spells granted by a diety who's name he doesn't know] - it is techncially possible for a Cleric to have no ranks in Knoweledge(Religion), after all - or whatever).

The verbal and somatic components of spells are not all the same - that's why you need a Spellcraft check to identify a spell as it's being cast. Each Wizard sets up a slightly different trigger mechanism - and, indeed, sets up slightly different trigger mechanisims even for copies of the same spell, so he doesn't fumble two spells trying to supply the right bit of extra push to the same triggers and coming up short (the Quicken Spell metamagic feat partially revolves around aranging for less "push" and redundant triggers). Much of the Spellcraft check to identify a spell on the fly is involved in tracking the energies as they come into play in order to predict the final result; the energy packet has something of an effect on the outside world while it's still being given that final push.

Spellcasters need the material and focus components because some energy packets require a pattern to draw off of; there's a little more information needed to finish the effect than can be easily contained in the energy packet (in the case of "complex" material or focus components, such as a live spider or a cocoon; Eschew Materials aleviates the need for some of it by putting a bit more info into the spell); others require something physical for a slight boost in energy or focus (for "simple" components like the copper coin for Detect Thoughts or the copper wire for Sending; Eschew Materials aleviates the need for some of it by putting a bit more force or focus into the spell). Sorcerers still need them because sometimes, there's just too much to remember, or some of it really does need to be channeled outside the body, for whatever reason. Other components are either a source of energy to power certain portions of the spell that are only quasi-magical in and of themselves, a bribe of sorts to certain forces,
or even a form of insulation against backlash. A divine caster avoids the need for most such trappings with help from above... but there are limits to what they can be bothered to do for their followers.

*Applause* Nicely done.

This has given me the idea for a bard who uses a sort of music to cast, somewhat like a Heterodyne (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070606). (Obviously, this idea needs tweaking).