Tyranids vs. Zerg

[Eerie]

Clone Wars 2.

Who will win?

[Mr._Blinky]

I KNEW IT.

THIS PROVES THAT ALL VS. THREADS ARE CYCLICAL.

THIS HAS ALL HAPPENED BEFORE, AND IT WILL ALL HAPPEN AGAIN.







Tyranids.

[Eerie]

I KNEW IT.

THIS PROVES THAT ALL VS. THREADS ARE CYCLICAL.

THIS HAS ALL HAPPENED BEFORE, AND IT WILL ALL HAPPEN AGAIN.

Right, next one will be IoM against Batman. :smallsmile:


Tyranids.

But everything Blizzard produce is superior. Zerg cannot possibly lose.

[puppyavenger]

tyrandis, for shear numbers, troops that can hit people with bio-guns and claws, Phykics and age.

[Mr. Scaly]

Even better...Batman vs the Tyranids!

And I vote for Zerg. I know nothing of tyranids but I never bet against the Zerg.

[puppyavenger]

Even better...Batman vs the Tyranids!

And I vote for Zerg. I know nothing of tyranids but I never bet against the Zerg.

Tyranids are intergalactic zerg with more versitility, phykic powers and their hive mind can defend itself adequetly. Not to mention that it has no Overmind equivilent.

[Eita]

That we know of.

[puppyavenger]

That we know of.

If it does exist, I'm geusing it will be some kind of super hive ship.

[Mr. Scaly]

Ah, cool. I googled them up to see what they are. Pretty cool looking, though the psychic powers may be matched up by the zerg's queen and devourer abilities.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Tyranids, because they're like zergs with tech and psychic powahs

[Eita]

Ah, cool. I googled them up to see what they are. Pretty cool looking, though the psychic powers may be matched up by the zerg's queen and devourer abilities.

Hahahahaha! Hahaha! Hahahaha! Hahaha!

Oh that's a good one.

In short, no. And I have played Starcraft. It is an awesome game, but the Zerg's physic abilities are nothing compared to the Hive.

[Storm Bringer]

'Nids.

Zerg are nasty, but they just don't (to my knowledge) have an answer to the big nid bio-morphs. I mean really, what have the zerg got that can stop a Hierophant bio-titan? or a trygon, or a harridan, or....well, any of the bigger 'nids? These things are nasty incarnate.

The trouble is the scale difference between the zerg and the 'nids. The Zerg hordes are balenced agianst the terran and Protus armies, at the under-100 unit battles of starcraft. The Nids are balaenced to fight bigger battles agianst, what, any of a dozen possible armies? The nids got better air power, arty, more dirverse troop choices and the ability specialise those troops on the fly. The 'nids also equal the great zerg strenghts of numbers, morale, and CnC. they are able to evlove new nid forrms in the space of weeks, specialise existing forms to meet current needs, and have access to equipment that is simply beyound the ability of the zergs to match or counter.

[puppyavenger]

Ah, cool. I googled them up to see what they are. Pretty cool looking, though the psychic powers may be matched up by the zerg's queen and devourer abilities.

Qeens and efilers have no direct combat ability. The nids primary Phyker is the Zonathrope who comes standard issue iwth a force field and can have warp blast(includiing a risk free version), superspeed, terror causing and many more. not to mention a upgraded Carnifex could shred a Ultralisk in Meele and/or kill them at range. Combine everything above for the Hive Tyrant.

[thubby]

i have to question whether psionics would work on the more or less mindless zerglings.

the zerg ability to infest planets (the only known answer to which is to nuke the planet) might give them the edge.

[Mr. Scaly]

Good points, though sarcastic laughter wins you no points at all Eita. :-P

[Illiterate Scribe]

i have to question whether psionics would work on the more or less mindless zerglings.

They still work on inanimate objects, so, yes, they would.


the zerg ability to infest planets (the only known answer to which is to nuke the planet) might give them the edge.

So do Tyranids - correction, they strip all non-usable atoms from a planet, and then carry on.

[Chibiqueso]

i have to question whether psionics would work on the more or less mindless zerglings.

the zerg ability to infest planets (the only known answer to which is to nuke the planet) might give them the edge.

Infesting planets makes tyranids laugh. They consume the biomass of entire planets.

[puppyavenger]

i

the zerg ability to infest planets (the only known answer to which is to nuke the planet) might give them the edge.

A infested Planet is full of life and bio-mass right? that is even the ground is alive.
In that case, that benifits the Tyrandis. The more biomass on a planet the morresources they get out of it. Also single planets are importent battlegrounds for the Zerg right? Tyranids eat them for snacks(literalty) Also worst comes to worst the Hive ships just drink the atmosphere and move on.

[Winterwind]

Tyranids, all the way.

StarCraft races are, as I see it, scaled down versions of WH40k races - the Terrans are the Imperium, scaled from galaxy-spanning, planet-exploding trillions counting to a few systems. The Protoss are the Eldar, with weakened psionic abilities (though probably the ones differing the least from the original). Finally, the Zerg are the Tyranids scaled down so that the other two races have a chance to survive.

While your typical Zerg swarm comes in the number of billions of beings, this will not impress the Tyranids. The Tyranids' ability to infest worlds easily tops that of the Zerg - at least the Zerg do not come with toxic spore swarms which poison the atmosphere and let the entire flora and fauna mutate, the Tyranids do precisely that. Both can modify their DNA to fit whatever they are fighting against. While Ultralisks are massive, I'm pretty sure Bio-Titans are larger than them.
I can't really think of anything the Zerg can do which the Tyranids don't do better (except, maybe, if the Zerg are lead by Kerrigan, at which point they have the benefit of diplomacy and are capable of making temporary alliances - so basically, the only chance for the Zerg to prevail would be to ally themselves with something capable of defeating the Tyranids.

Ultimately, the Zerg are the Tyranids if one scaled the Tyranids down from a threat eating up galaxies to a threat eating up a small number of systems. It's kinda like asking whether a platoon of US soldiers with proper equipment would win, or the entire US Army with their entire equipment.

[Illiterate Scribe]

A small tyranid bio-titan -

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Tyranids/Hierophant/hpp2.jpg

I think we have an answer.

[warty goblin]

Tyranids, all the way.
I can't really think of anything the Zerg can do which the Tyranids don't do better (except, maybe, if the Zerg are lead by Kerrigan, at which point they have the benefit of diplomacy and are capable of making temporary alliances - so basically, the only chance for the Zerg to prevail would be to ally themselves with something capable of defeating the Tyranids.
.


And as far as I know, the only thing that can really stop the Tyranids are the Orks...

[puppyavenger]

And as far as I know, the only thing that can really stop the Tyranids are the Orks...

Corection, They fight to a stalemate intill the Tyrands find a way to make something that acts like ork fungus.

[Alrik_Ranulfsson]

i have to question whether psionics would work on the more or less mindless zerglings.

We know for a fact psionic storm works on them. Warp blast will do the same. Psi-disruptors also are used often on them aren't they? I think psychic stuff will affect them just fine.



the zerg ability to infest planets (the only known answer to which is to nuke the planet) might give them the edge.


Tyranids eat planets. They don't need them. They can also do a similar thing to infesting them when the situation demands it, except Exterminatus, in which a fleet of ships bombards a planet with chemical weapons, viral weapons, burns the atmosphere and then pummels the surface with warheads capable of cracking the planets crust.

And the tyranids can still survive.

They are the scary.

[Warshrike]

Money on Tie.

Zerg consume races and absorb their DNA for further forms of evolution.
Tyranids consume Biomatter for the same purpose.
The two have an eat-off.

The Zerg wins IF-
Any of the Protoss they devoured gives them enough matter to evolve the Protozerg, as the Xel'Naga intended. Perfect Mind, Perfect Form, basicly.
They are lead by Kerry.

Otherwise, I just see it as one huge tie. Just remember that most of the air in Starcraft is considered to be in high orbit, and is actually quite huge. Also, that an Ultralish is actually large than your average Carnifex.
Hmmn... Let's see, what else is there... Well, The Tyranids throw away units by the bucketload. The Zerg have two units whose whole purpose is killing themselves and others. Scourge and Infested Terrans.

Yeah, my money is on Zerg. Tyranid Hiveship starts moving in- Zerg flood it with millions of Scourge, Devourers and Mutas, plus whatever new flyers they get in SC2.

gg nid fleet.

[Eita]

One of the Tyranids exploratory fleets threatened Ultramar. Ultramar. Only two other areas are anywhere near as badass as the realm of Lord Macragge.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Money on Tie.

Zerg consume races and absorb their DNA for further forms of evolution.
Tyranids consume Biomatter for the same purpose.
The two have an eat-off.

The Zerg wins IF-
Any of the Protoss they devoured gives them enough matter to evolve the Protozerg, as the Xel'Naga intended. Perfect Mind, Perfect Form, basicly.
They are lead by Kerry.

Otherwise, I just see it as one huge tie. Just remember that most of the air in Starcraft is considered to be in high orbit, and is actually quite huge. Also, that an Ultralish is actually large than your average Carnifex.
Hmmn... Let's see, what else is there... Well, The Tyranids throw away units by the bucketload. The Zerg have two units whose whole purpose is killing themselves and others. Scourge and Infested Terrans.

Yeah, my money is on Zerg. Tyranid Hiveship starts moving in- Zerg flood it with millions of Scourge, Devourers and Mutas, plus whatever new flyers they get in SC2.

gg nid fleet.

Nah, if both of them have the capability to evolve into TEH UBAR BUG, which I doubt is really possibly (unless 'perfect body, perfect mind' means we're getting back into that Exalted hogwash), then the 'nids win, as there's just so damn many of them, and they actually pose a more galactic threat.

Also, Eita, can you remember who's diverting the Hivefleet from its normal course? I know that someone is, but for the life of me I can't remember if it's Kryptmann, or Chaos, or the Necrons, or the Tau, or whoever.

[puppyavenger]

Also, Eita, can you remember who's diverting the Hivefleet from its normal course? I know that someone is, but for the life of me I can't remember if it's Kryptmann, or Chaos, or the Necrons, or the Tau, or whoever.

inquisitor Kryptman. He put a genstealer in one of the Ork infested systems and the cult grew so large that an entire wing of Len=viathen turned towards them.

[Illiterate Scribe]

inquisitor Kryptman. He put a genstealer in one of the Ork infested systems and the cult grew so large that an entire wing of Len=viathen turned towards them.

Good ol' Kryptmann. Such a badass.

[Storm Bringer]

Money on Tie.

Zerg consume races and absorb their DNA for further forms of evolution.
Tyranids consume Biomatter for the same purpose.
The two have an eat-off.

The Zerg wins IF-
Any of the Protoss they devoured gives them enough matter to evolve the Protozerg, as the Xel'Naga intended. Perfect Mind, Perfect Form, basicly.
They are lead by Kerry.

Otherwise, I just see it as one huge tie. Just remember that most of the air in Starcraft is considered to be in high orbit, and is actually quite huge. Also, that an Ultralish is actually large than your average Carnifex.
Hmmn... Let's see, what else is there... Well, The Tyranids throw away units by the bucketload. The Zerg have two units whose whole purpose is killing themselves and others. Scourge and Infested Terrans.

Yeah, my money is on Zerg. Tyranid Hiveship starts moving in- Zerg flood it with millions of Scourge, Devourers and Mutas, plus whatever new flyers they get in SC2.

gg nid fleet.

the nids do the whole DNA altering thing as well, so that's a draw.

Also, a 40K starship is big. the smaller interstellar ships in the universe are around 800m long, and the biggest are in the relm of 15km. The average hive ship also carry millions of nids onboard, with the bio-mass and production facilites to make more as needed. Plus, they travel in swams of hundreds.

As has been said, the first probes of the Hive Fleets nearly overran the 3rd most heavily defended system in the 40K universe. The scale of the tyranid fleet is beyound human reckoning. They have at least the biomass of every living thing in a galaxy to play with, and that's assuming we're the second galaxy they turn on.

The nids use spore mines by the thousand as a area satuatrion attack, and these are capable of wiping out squads if used well. plus, they have the numbers to soak up the infected stuff, assuming they don't just shoot them.

[Freshmeat]

What if the Zerg rush though? (*ba-dum-bum-pish!*)

[Callos_DeTerran]

Corection, They fight to a stalemate intill the Tyrands find a way to make something that acts like ork fungus.

Yeah, the Orks aren't winning the fight against the Tyranid, their surviving just like every other WH40K race who battles them. I will grant their surviving better then the Imperium of Man has been, but its hard to grow stronger from conflict when a Carnifex rips you open like a wet paper bag.

[Poison_Fish]

(unless 'perfect body, perfect mind' means we're getting back into that Exalted hogwash)

awww, someone's bitter. :smalltongue:

I'm going to go with nids here though. Just the massive size of their fleets, in the number war, I just feel there is more of em.

[Inhuman Bot]

....did someone earlier say "they have a hive mind" then " they have no overmind equivelent"? also who would win are you ready for this aweinspiring Idea? the Winner is: whoops, out of space. [spoiler/] Zerg. reason? imagine: zerg infested tyranids (repetitive? yes). and my 'nids keep getting gunned down by all to accurate human/tau/eldar/necron/ork (yes, ork.) gunners.[spoiler]

[WarriorTribble]

I honestly can't see a winner, unless we disable the asimilation ablities of both sides. The way I see it, they'll both try to absorb each other until they just unify into one race. Now if assimilation is no more... I'd tentativly put my money on Tyranids simply cause the 40K universe is WAY more.... harsh.

[Winterwind]

I honestly can't see a winner, unless we disable the asimilation ablities of both sides. The way I see it, they'll both try to absorb each other until they just unify into one race. Now if assimilation is no more... I'd tentativly put my money on Tyranids simply cause the 40K universe is WAY more.... harsh.I think this is a pretty much perfect assessment of the situation.

[Illiterate Scribe]

awww, someone's bitter. :smalltongue:

Harrumph! :smallwink:

[Rutee]

Harrumph! :smallwink:

You just wish your games could create faster then light travel within one session :smallbiggrin:

[puppyavenger]

....did someone earlier say "they have a hive mind" then " they have no overmind equivelent"?

It's a conglomerate mind. Each Synapse contributes to the mind of the ship, each ship contributees to the mind of Fleet and each Fleet contributes to the Hive Mind as a whole.

[Oslecamo]

Yeah, the zerg are awfully outnumbered. But I think a match between a similar number of Tyrannids and zerg would be fair. After all, in the tabletop game, you never actually see armies of tyrannids by the thousands in the game do you?

1-Unlike the tyrannid, a very small isolated group of zerg can start an entire colony out of nothing but rock. Ok, crystals and vespine gas. It's not like it isn't as common as rock in the Starcraft universe. Isolated Tyrannids however, will revert to normal animals that just try to survive, like found up by the Empiral guard, who has found alien species extremelly similar to the Tyrannids living in normal planets, sugesting small groups of Tyrannids who got lost and couldn't do anything about it.

2-You can never actually kill all the zerg. They breed so damn fast the only way of erradicating them off a planet is killing the nearest cerebrate/overmind andhave the zerg eat each other. Tyrannids, as far as I remmeber, don't breed so fast.

3-Cerebrates just don't die unless attacked by dark protoss templar attacks. Even the regular protoss couldn't kill it with their high tech weapons. And there are no records of a Tyrannid as tough as that.

4-Zerg can corrupt other races strongest member. What was the last time you saw a infested eldar farseer/librarian in the Tyrannid ranks?

5-Hive Tyrant, meet the overmind's bodyguard himself: the Torrasque. You may remember him from Brood war campaign when trying to capture the overmind. This little fella eats siege tanks shots for lunch, and has more armor and the best melee base damage in the game. Plus if you kill him he regenerates a little time later as long as the overmind stands.

Now i'm not saying the Tyrannids are weaker. They have weapons and much more variety. But thezerg are also heavy beaters. They can block ranged weapons with the cloud thingy and kill anything organic in 1 hit thanks to queens. They have fast suicide area of damage units.

I sugest we post armies of same size. 1500 point buy against an a 200 population zerg army, including the necessary overlords. The torrasque takes 10 population if you want it. Infested Kerrigan takes 5. For some fairness let's assume killing the overlords causes the loss of any excess zerg units.

[puppyavenger]

1-Unlike the tyrannid, a very small isolated group of zerg can start an entire colony out of nothing but rock. Ok, crystals and vespine gas. It's not like it isn't as common as rock in the Starcraft universe. Isolated Tyrannids however, will revert to normal animals that just try to survive, like found up by the Empiral guard, who has found alien species extremelly similar to the Tyrannids living in normal planets, sugesting small groups of Tyrannids who got lost and couldn't do anything about it.

.

True, but if a Synapse creature survies then you have a very dangeros gurrelia war on your hands.





2-You can never actually kill all the zerg. They breed so damn fast the only way of erradicating them off a planet is killing the nearest cerebrate/overmind andhave the zerg eat each other. Tyrannids, as far as I remmeber, don't breed so fast.
.

Yes they do, They have Thousands of Queen like creature in orbit and dominitrixes are the ground equivilent.



3-Cerebrates just don't die unless attacked by dark protoss templar attacks. Even the regular protoss couldn't kill it with their high tech weapons. And there are no records of a Tyrannid as tough as that.
.
True but the Tyranid Hive mind is decentirilised. You have to kill every Synapse in the Fleet, from Zonathropes to Hive ships to destroy its intelligence.





4-Zerg can corrupt other races strongest member. What was the last time you saw a infested eldar farseer/librarian in the Tyrannid ranks?
.

Tyranids don't infest people (while the genestealers do) They Break down their genes and use the useful ones in their next generation. Thhe Tyranid Phsykers are All Synapse have the Hive mind hard-wired into their brains to the point that they can brodcast it to other Tyranids. The exeption being Zonathropes who are literaly giant floating brains. The Fleet would probbably just shoot a bunch of energy into them till they explode if they are being infected.



5-Hive Tyrant, meet the overmind's bodyguard himself: the Torrasque. You may remember him from Brood war campaign when trying to capture the overmind. This little fella eats siege tanks shots for lunch, and has more armor and the best melee base damage in the game. Plus if you kill him he regenerates a little time later as long as the overmind stands.
.

Torrasque mee the Heirophant who eats Baneblades for snacks and is more than three times the size of trees.


\
. They can block ranged weapons with the cloud thingy and kill anything organic in 1 hit thanks to queens. They have fast suicide area of damage units.
.

The Tyranid ships can drink atmossphers, Zonathropes come stock with a forcefield and Hive Tyrants can cause anything to run away by giving them a glimpse of the Hive Mind. Acording to Fluff, Queens are importent and fairly rare creatures.

[Winterwind]

Do we have any data with regards to the size of an ultralisk?
They keep being attributed with such terms as "gigantic", but I do not remember any text or picture allowing a direct conclusion as to how large it actually is.
I imagine them somewhat about the size of large trees, but this is completely arbitrary and could just as well be completely off in either direction.

[warty goblin]

Torrasque mee the Heirophant who eats Baneblades for snacks and is more than three times the size of trees.



And the Baneblade makes a Terran Siege Tank look like small fry, since it can actually, you know, fire at things right next to it, and execute that fascinatingly complex tactic known as "move while shooting".

[Winterwind]

And the Baneblade makes a Terran Siege Tank look like small fry, since it can actually, you know, fire at things right next to it, and execute that fascinatingly complex tactic known as "move while shooting".In all fairness, the Terran Siege Tank can do both of these as well. It just has an artillery mode additionally, but noone forces you to use it (in actual play, you use it most of the time, but for a single tank on an empty plain against an Ultralisk, it would be a foolish thing to use).

[MeklorIlavator]

the only actual info on size came from this website (http://homepage.mac.com/cheethorne/Starcraft/ultralisk.htm)

8’ (2.4 m) high, 12’ (3.7 m) wide, and 20’ (6.1 m) in length.

I question their accuracy, as this makes them shorter than Space Marines. A better example may be seen on the Starcraft Ghost trailer, where it seems to be 2-3 terran marines high.

[Winterwind]

the only actual info on size came from this website (http://homepage.mac.com/cheethorne/Starcraft/ultralisk.htm)

8’ (2.4 m) high, 12’ (3.7 m) wide, and 20’ (6.1 m) in length.

I question their accuracy, as this makes them shorter than Space Marines. A better example may be seen on the Starcraft Ghost trailer, where it seems to be 2-3 terran marines high.I have come across this site before and I am quite sure they are just making stuff up, as not only does a lot of their data not seem to reflect both the game and its fluff very well, it sometimes directly contradicts official Blizzard fluff, including that from StarCraft's very manual.

The Ghost trailer, on the other hand, would be a trustworthy source.
*looks for it*
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_Ow2wTuSHE). The Ultralisk is at 4:20. The rest also describes the terror of a Zerg attack rather well, I think.

[Oslecamo]

Tyranids don't infest people (while the genestealers do) They Break down their genes and use the useful ones in their next generation. Thhe Tyranid Phsykers are All Synapse have the Hive mind hard-wired into their brains to the point that they can brodcast it to other Tyranids. The exeption being Zonathropes who are literaly giant floating brains. The Fleet would probbably just shoot a bunch of energy into them till they explode if they are being infected.



Torrasque mee the Heirophant who eats Baneblades for snacks and is more than three times the size of trees.

The Tyranid ships can drink atmossphers, Zonathropes come stock with a forcefield and Hive Tyrants can cause anything to run away by giving them a glimpse of the Hive Mind. Acording to Fluff, Queens are importent and fairly rare creatures.

Well the Torrasque owned ALL ground troops in the Starcraft game. I had 6 tanks in siege mode plus 10 marines on foot, filled bunker and 3 medics backup and he still tore trough it losing only half his life, whitout a single zer unit helping it. The only fast way to kill it is gank him with battle cruisers and shoot yamato cannons untill it is dead. By the way, I could argue that the ultralisk/torrasque is as big as a battle cruiser.

There's a big advantage in infesting an enemy instead of just geting his genes:his tactical genius and experience is now yours to comand. Imagine the zerg managing to infest a ship full of marines and have them fight alongside the swarm with their uber weapons. Granted, they may turn in you later, but it still will be for the swarm.

Zerg don't even need atmoshperes so the Tyrannids can drink all of them and the zerg won't care. They fight in space as well as they fight in habited planets. They can sustain themselves out of just rock and vespine gas. Wich means zergs can get out reinforcments of a lot more planets than the Tyrannids, since most planets in the universe are just gigantic pieces of rock whitout life(or even decent atmosphere).

And yes, I admit that the zerg have no chances if the Tyrannid fleets massive numbers are brought into the fray. That's why I said to focus more on each game mechanics. In the tabletop game you really don't have the chance to drink the enemy atmosphere or get thousands of reinforcments because fluff claims your queens are breeding like mad.

[Destro_Yersul]

By the way, I could argue that the ultralisk/torrasque is as big as a battle cruiser.

Except that, in game, scourge are shown to be around 1/6 the size of a battlecruiser, and are much much smaller than that in the cinematics. The truth of it is that battlecruisers would have to be huge in order to scale accurately. Unfortunately, that would make them an unfeasible in-game unit.

According to the Starcraft Wiki, the Ultralisk is Five Meters tall and Twenty Meters long. The Heirophant Bio-Titan is of similar size to the Imperial Reaver Titan (30 Meters tall)

Nids Win.

[Khanderas]

i have to question whether psionics would work on the more or less mindless zerglings.
The Overmind psionically controls the Cerbrates that control their broods (possibly via the overlords). I say they are psionically attuned.

[Krursk]

There is one point that no one has pointed out - a war with the 'Nids is inevitable. In the 'Nids codex it mentions that if you manage to kill a Tyranid Queen (their breeding factory) the carcass just spawns out more Queens. So unless the Zerg are infinite in number, any fight they have is inevitably [sp?] going to end with the Zerg being eaten.

[Storm Bringer]

There is one point that no one has pointed out - a war with the 'Nids is inevitable. In the 'Nids codex it mentions that if you manage to kill a Tyranid Queen (their breeding factory) the carcass just spawns out more Queens. So unless the Zerg are infinite in number, any fight they have is inevitably [sp?] going to end with the Zerg being eaten.

More to the point, the nids STARTING numbers are near-infinite, for all intents and purposes. they have traveled form another galaxy to get here, and borught with them all the useable material form that galaxy. At LEAST. The fluff hints were are not the first galaxy they went to after clearing thier own, so maybe more than that.

[Mr. Scaly]

More to the point, the nids STARTING numbers are near-infinite, for all intents and purposes. they have traveled form another galaxy to get here, and borught with them all the useable material form that galaxy. At LEAST. The fluff hints were are not the first galaxy they went to after clearing thier own, so maybe more than that.

In the Zerg's defence, they've been doing more or less the same thing. They're from this galaxy, but its not like they've been rushing to get to the Terran system. I think in a numbers game the two are pretty evenly matched. In game time it only takes a few seconds to spawn new zerg from hives and hatcheries, which are always producing new larvae to mutate.

So then it goes back to quality, of which I still know nothing about. ^^

[Selrahc]

More to the point, the nids STARTING numbers are near-infinite, for all intents and purposes. they have traveled form another galaxy to get here, and borught with them all the useable material form that galaxy. At LEAST. The fluff hints were are not the first galaxy they went to after clearing thier own, so maybe more than that.

But they lost large numbers. And then had to expend energy crossing the void.

[Oslecamo]

Except that, in game, scourge are shown to be around 1/6 the size of a battlecruiser, and are much much smaller than that in the cinematics. The truth of it is that battlecruisers would have to be huge in order to scale accurately. Unfortunately, that would make them an unfeasible in-game unit.

According to the Starcraft Wiki, the Ultralisk is Five Meters tall and Twenty Meters long. The Heirophant Bio-Titan is of similar size to the Imperial Reaver Titan (30 Meters tall)

Nids Win.

Bio titan eats torrasque, torrasque regenerates inside his body and proceeds to claw all his vital organs, emerging from his stomach "a la alien". Bigger is not always better.

Hmm, now that I notice it, that's exactly what zerg queens do:they plant eggs inside their victims, wich instantly spwan broodlings that tear apart the victim from the inside out. This way they can kill very big stuff very quickly, as long it's organic. That's one thing the Tyrannids don't do, at least that I'm aware off.

[Zenos]

Bio titan eats torrasque, torrasque regenerates inside his body and proceeds to claw all his vital organs, emerging from his stomach "a la alien". Bigger is not always better.

Hmm, now that I notice it, that's exactly what zerg queens do:they plant eggs inside their victims, wich instantly spwan broodlings that tear apart the victim from the inside out. This way they can kill very big stuff very quickly, as long it's organic. That's one thing the Tyrannids don't do, at least that I'm aware off.

It will chew forst.

Remember this kids! Chew your food or it will eat you from the inside.

[WNxHasoroth]

Heirophant chews, acid dissolves the Torrasque, Torrasque tries to regen, gets digested by bio-plasma again.

Heirophant walks over to the digestion pulls, the 'nids just learned how to make their own Torrasque (which they already do. Old One Eye anyone?)

[Oslecamo]

Heirophant chews, acid dissolves the Torrasque, Torrasque tries to regen, gets digested by bio-plasma again.

Heirophant walks over to the digestion pulls, the 'nids just learned how to make their own Torrasque (which they already do. Old One Eye anyone?)

Still doesn't save him from the queen broodlings.

Also, when a guy takes 6 yamato cannon shots to take down, and still comes back to life, I guess it will be somewhat resistant to plasma. Mind you, since the Torrasque can take down buildings in a matter of seconds, game based, it probably would be able to take the bio titan 1 to 1, despite the size diference.

Seriously, based in the fluff and the game, those regenerating elite units of the zerg can only be taken down definetely by a dark templar blade.

[WNxHasoroth]

Your using game scaling mate.

This is the same game scaling that makes it that a battle cruiser is the size of a few Marines which in the fluff, holds hundreds. Queens are most likely tiny and I doubt the spawn broodlings ability can hurt something that big.

Think about it. Shooting someone with a fifty caliber bullet (spawn broodlings) will kill them. Shooting a godless, soulless thirty meter monster with a fifty caliber bullet would be tickling it.

Plus, fleshborers > spawn broodlings when suitably souped up to bio-titan scale.

Not to mention your "knowledge" on the fluff in the IG vs USMC thread doesn't exactly lend you credit.

[Zenos]

Still doesn't save him from the queen broodlings.

Also, when a guy takes 6 yamato cannon shots to take down, and still comes back to life, I guess it will be somewhat resistant to plasma. Mind you, since the Torrasque can take down buildings in a matter of seconds, game based, it probably would be able to take the bio titan 1 to 1, despite the size diference.

Seriously, based in the fluff and the game, those regenerating elite units of the zerg can only be taken down definetely by a dark templar blade.

All computer RTS games are surrealistic when it comes to units taking down buildings. And of course Ridiculously fast construction (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RidiculouslyFastConstruction).

[Mr. Scaly]

The broodlings look more or less the size of zergling. I think even a 30 meter monstrosity will notce with a pair of those things start gnawing on its liver, kidneys, and other organs.

[WNxHasoroth]

The same zerglings killed by a speeding jeep?

[puppyavenger]

But they lost large numbers. And then had to expend energy crossing the void.

Wrong, All Tyranids killed so far are merly the first Vaunguards. And Acording to some theories Tyranids can travel in the warp, and due the nulifieing presence the shadow exerts over it they won't be troubled by deomons. In fact just be glad that demons don't have Dna.

[Mr. Scaly]

Yeah, that's the size there.

[Selrahc]

Wrong, All Tyranids killed so far are merly the first Vaunguards.

And in those first vanguards, they have lost large numbers. Without making a troubling dent in the galaxy.

If they are trying to take over a galaxy, they will have to expend resources taking over that galaxy. If an advanced race resists their take over, then they lose ships and troops to the attrition. If the galaxy they came from had an advanced race resisting them(and all indications would show that it did, since there were members of that centaur like race in the vanguard of the swarm, who later got phased out of the army list) then they would have lost large ammounts of biomass in the takeover of that galaxy.

Its not all addition. Subtraction takes place too, and the great sum of tyranid power isn't equal to the entire sum of all biomass in their previous galaxy(s).



And Acording to some theories Tyranids can travel in the warp, and due the nulifieing presence the shadow exerts over it they won't be troubled by deomons. In fact just be glad that demons don't have Dna.

I don't think you understand how life works. These are giant living organisms, so just to stay alive they have to burn energy. To travel a near limitless expanse of nothing, takes a very very very long time, and so a large part of the enrgy they gather from one galaxy must be expended in reaching the next galaxy.

If the Milky Way puts up enough resistance, the Tyranid threat could end in a very anticlimatic way, as it sputters to a halt in between this galxy and its next intended prey.

Daemons of course, wouldn't exist in the void. They are creatures shaped by human consciousness. The shape of the warp away from external influence, might have intelligent malevolent beings, but they would be almost unimaginable in form and deed, because they would be creatures of raw unfettered chaos...

[puppyavenger]

And in those first vanguards, they have lost large numbers. Without making a troubling dent in the galaxy.

If they are trying to take over a galaxy, they will have to expend resources taking over that galaxy. If an advanced race resists their take over, then they lose ships and troops to the attrition. If the galaxy they came from had an advanced race resisting them(and all indications would show that it did, since there were members of that centaur like race in the vanguard of the swarm, who later got phased out of the army list) then they would have lost large ammounts of biomass in the takeover of that galaxy.

Its not all addition. Subtraction takes place too, and the great sum of tyranid power isn't equal to the entire sum of all biomass in their previous galaxy(s).



I don't think you understand how life works. These are giant living organisms, so just to stay alive they have to burn energy. To travel a near limitless expanse of nothing, takes a very very very long time, and so a large part of the enrgy they gather from one galaxy must be expended in reaching the next galaxy.

If the Milky Way puts up enough resistance, the Tyranid threat could end in a very anticlimatic way, as it sputters to a halt in between this galxy and its next intended prey.

Daemons of course, wouldn't exist in the void. They are creatures shaped by human consciousness. The shape of the warp away from external influence, might have intelligent malevolent beings, but they would be almost unimaginable in form and deed, because they would be creatures of raw unfettered chaos...

The warp allows Faster then light travel and time works very differently. Deomns are as far as logic goes created by any sapient beings minds. and unless the entire fleet is destroyed then the Tyranids simply regan evrything they lost by devouring the battlefeild.

[Selrahc]

It takes energy just to live. It takes time to cross galaxies.

In order to cross the vast interstellar void between galaxies, you will expend a lot of energy.

The tyranids would lose biomass if they have to expend more resources on taking the planet than they get by consuming the planet. To create and then reabsorb an organism loses you a substantial amount of energy. If a giant enemy army is parked on a planet, and it beats back wave after wave of gaunts, carnifexes and bio titans, then even after reabsorbing the corpses, there will be a loss of energy from that being. As well, when the enemy shoots at the tyranid with energy weapons or flamethrowers or plasma or lightning guns or acid or other devices which burn the corpse, that loses them energy. So even in the case you stated(Which was not what I was referring to), the nids could not recoup the entire energy used to create their invading army just by consuming the battlefield, except by harvesting the biomass of the planet.

What I was actually referring to was space battles. The loss of ships is an unrecoverable loss of biomass, and in a battle against an advanced race you will lose many space ships, or even entire fleets as happened at Macragge.

[tyckspoon]

It takes energy just to live. It takes time to cross galaxies.

In order to cross the vast interstellar void between galaxies, you will expend a lot of energy.


Hibernation, dude. It's what animals do when they need to spend a lot of time without expending a lot of energy. There are animals here on Earth that can slow their metabolisms enough to appear dead and still be revivable with no apparent harm; I don't think the 'nids would be much less efficient at it after having already consumed a galaxy's worth of assorted life. The only major energy expenditure involved in traveling to a new galaxy would be coming about and getting up to speed for the transit (have some solar sails grown onto the ships and you don't even have to spend that energy.) After that, everything except whatever organisms need to watch out for errant space-rocks should just go to sleep.


...except by harvesting the biomass of the planet.


It's a good thing that's what the Tyranids *do* when they win, isn't it? And they do win; the planets they are finally stopped at get written in the histories, but the names of the planets they ate on the way there just get forgotten. The first alert of a new Tyranid fleet is typically when the Imperium loses contact with a half-dozen planets on the galactic edge.


And there is a hell of a lot of energy and biomass contained in a live planet.. quick example: Think of every human currently on the planet. All nothing more than mass and energy to the Tyranids. Now add in every head of livestock- imagine how many more humans you could create by breaking down and rebuilding every single goat, cow, pig, yak, and horse. Now take the crops. All the fields of grains, orchards of fruit, mushroom silos, whatever. You already have the material for billions of organisms there, and we haven't even gotten into harvesting the 'natural' life. So let's eat that too. All the plants, animals, and insects. Take the dirt while you're at it; it's got bacteria, which add up, and lots of useful minerals. Now the Tyranids have a truly massive amount of raw stuff to work with, likely more than enough to replace losses suffered while taking the planet, and they haven't even begun to tap the oceans.

[Mr. Scaly]

Are we even still talking about Tyranid vs. Zerg here?

Okay, here's an idea. How about we put each race on the opposite ends of the galaxy with full knowledge of each other's existence, and let them eat their way towards each other? Both will have the chance to build up numbers and absorb new characteristics, and we'll argue about what we think happens then.

Heh. Actually I think it will be pretty academic by that point. With the whole galaxy to feast on we can't even guess what new strains and forms will emerge. Okay, bad idea.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Are we even still talking about Tyranid vs. Zerg here?

Okay, here's an idea. How about we put each race on the opposite ends of the galaxy with full knowledge of each other's existence, and let them eat their way towards each other? Both will have the chance to build up numbers and absorb new characteristics, and we'll argue about what we think happens then.

Heh. Actually I think it will be pretty academic by that point. With the whole galaxy to feast on we can't even guess what new strains and forms will emerge. Okay, bad idea.

Not particularly. Tyranids come up with new forms, but they show far more of a preference for simply enhancing breeds already in use. It's the zerg who haven't found forms good enough for long term use, they just haven't been around long enough to come up with something that won't just be thrown out with the next batch of DNA.

As for energy spent on-route, Tyranids have come up with ways to lessen the impact of that. Not completely eradicate it, but they have adjusted to it. As for Zerg reproducing quickly, thats RTS time, it just wouldn't be fun if you actually had to sit through the time it takes for actual hatchlings and zerglings to be made, not even talking about the more advanced breeds. From the Starcraft manual and what I've guessed at, it DOES take time for them to reproduce, just like the tyranids. The difference being 'nids will come close to doubling their number for each day their 'eating' a planet.


On note of Hierophant vs. Torrasquethingie, the T thingie wouldn't remain in the Hierophant for very long. It'd only be in there long enough to be transported to a digestion pool to be broken down and assimilated.

[Fanatic-Templar]

From what I have read so far, it sounds like the Tyranids would mop the floor with the Zerg in their current state (Though still be unable to exterminate them, given the Overmind and his Cerebrates' immunities). However, the Zerg are fairly young. From the moment they gained the capabilities for interstellar travel, they have been on a straight course for Aiur, with only a brief detour to bring the Terrans' psionic potential into the Swarm. And they already have "innumerable" (whatever that means) broods, the smallest of which contain a few thousand warriors, and the largest holding several millions. Also worthy of note is that the Protoss have been the first real challenge for the Zerg, and fluff from both Brood Wars and StarCraft II suggest a far more rapid rate of evolution since those first battles.

Therefore, I speculate that given time, the Zerg might be capable of overcoming the Tyranids.

[Selrahc]

Hibernation, dude. It's what animals do when they need to spend a lot of time without expending a lot of energy. There are animals here on Earth that can slow their metabolisms enough to appear dead and still be revivable with no apparent harm; I don't think the 'nids would be much less efficient at it after having already consumed a galaxy's worth of assorted life. The only major energy expenditure involved in traveling to a new galaxy would be coming about and getting up to speed for the transit (have some solar sails grown onto the ships and you don't even have to spend that energy.) After that, everything except whatever organisms need to watch out for errant space-rocks should just go to sleep.

You still need to use energy even when hibernating. I was assuming they were hibernating.



As for energy spent on-route, Tyranids have come up with ways to lessen the impact of that. Not completely eradicate it, but they have adjusted to it.

Yup.


It's a good thing that's what the Tyranids *do* when they win, isn't it?

Yes. Which is why the tyranids have a large fleet. But my point is that they don't gain one hundred per cent of all biomass.



And there is a hell of a lot of energy and biomass contained in a live planet.. quick example: Think of every human currently on the planet. All nothing more than mass and energy to the Tyranids.

If someone knows a Tyranid fleet is coming, they can evacuate all non-combat personnel from the planet.



Now add in every head of livestock- imagine how many more humans you could create by breaking down and rebuilding every single goat, cow, pig, yak, and horse. Now take the crops. All the fields of grains, orchards of fruit, mushroom silos, whatever.

Scorched earth. Get out what you can, destroy what you can't.
The imperium takes thios to extremes, virus bombing planets that are on the path of the Tyranid fleet and have been assesed as undefendable. If any alien foes of the tyranids had the ability to do that back in their home galaxy, then that would severely reduce what they gain.



And they do win; the planets they are finally stopped at get written in the histories, but the names of the planets they ate on the way there just get forgotten. The first alert of a new Tyranid fleet is typically when the Imperium loses contact with a half-dozen planets on the galactic edge.

The imperium has large gangs of roving inquisitors dedicated to combating the tyranid menace, backed up by elite squads of Deathwatch marines. They act as mobile scouts against the Tyranid invasion, along with the normal imperial defences. They have a fairly good chance to find the Tyranids before they attack.

And in Kraken and Leviathan, the Tyranids are not so unstoppable as they were at Macragge. They are attacking with far less forces, and can be stopped a lot more easily on each individual front, but are attacking a much wider area.

[Oslecamo]

Zergs don't even need organic matter to multiply themselves. They can do it out of rock and gas. And there is far more rock and gas than organic matter in the universe.

Anyway, where is the fluff suport that zergs can assimilate other creatures DNA? From what I remember, the zerg don't assimilate other creatures DNA, rather they evolve their larvas to become whatever's needed, just like in a ant colony there are ant warriors and ant workers, completely diferent from each other yet of the same species.

Anyway, I could claim that the Overmind and cerebrates are far smarter than the Tyrannid command, since they were able to identify and capture not only powerfull human psichics but also find and capture powerfull artifacts to aid their campaign, while the Tyrannids strategy can be summarized to "find food, eat food".

I still argue that the zergs have an huge advantage in the ability to infest powerfll beings and bring them to their control. It takes a lot of time, yeah, but an infested librarian/chaos sorceror/tau crisis suit/titan would be something to fear.

[Mr. Scaly]

[QUOTE=Oslecamo;3766900]
Anyway, where is the fluff suport that zergs can assimilate other creatures DNA? From what I remember, the zerg don't assimilate other creatures DNA, rather they evolve their larvas to become whatever's needed, just like in a ant colony there are ant warriors and ant workers, completely diferent from each other yet of the same species.
QUOTE]

The general idea is that the zerg are an adaptable species. Whenever they stop by a planet and eradicate all life, they sometimes create new strain of zerg based on the best characteristics of the species they wipe out. My handbook at home actually describes a few of the species that they've incorporated into the hive, and StarCraftwiki talks about all the different strains and the exact dimensions and such.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Category:StarCraft_Zerg_units

[Winterwind]

Anyway, where is the fluff suport that zergs can assimilate other creatures DNA? From what I remember, the zerg don't assimilate other creatures DNA, rather they evolve their larvas to become whatever's needed, just like in a ant colony there are ant warriors and ant workers, completely diferent from each other yet of the same species. What? :smallconfused:
It is stated throughout the manual, from the beginning to the end, that assimilating other creatures DNA is exactly what Zerg do. The original Zerg were fairly powerless worm-like beings (similar to their larvae), who managed to archive the DNA of all creatures on their homeworld. They were stuck there, until a space-faring species of gigantic beings happened to pass through their system - the Zerg assimilated them, and made them into Overlords. From there, they began to spread, cherry-picking only the most useful DNA they encountered to enhance the Swarm. All Zerg creatures were carefully designed, through experiments and manipulation, from original creatures the Zerg encountered on their way through the galaxy. Heck, the manual even states the names and original planets of the species that were to become drones, zerglings, hydralisks, mutalisks, ultralisks and queens (larvea evolved from original Zerg, the origin of scourges and defilers is unknown).

[Voidhawk]

In the long run I back the 'Nids against just about everything, but in the short run I think the Zerg have several significant advantages.

The main one of these is they can form much more complex short term plans than the 'Nids. Though they are not mere beasts, and do show tactical inventiveness, The Tyranid Hive does not think in the same way, or on the same scale that we do. In fact even as it chews at the galaxy it is probably unaware of anything smaller than a planet.

This means the Zerg can come up with schemes it couldn't understand, for instance: Flee. If the Zerg swarm turns from the Hive and runs ahead of it, they can infest planets and move on before the ni'ds get there, building they're own strengths and denying the 'nids resources.

In general however the zerg strike me as young 'Nids, before they over ran their first galaxy, but with the potential to become greater.

[Oslecamo]

Ouch sorry. In my defense, I must say my game version didn't came with a manual. Or box. Or even a real CD. I said enough.

Still I claim the zerg overmind is much smarter than the Tyrannid overmind. One is able to plot the aquisition of high powered artifacts hidden in planets, the other, well, goes to where the food is.

[Woot Spitum]

Wouldn't the Zerg kill all the Tyranid workers before they have a chance to actually build any troops?

[Storm Bringer]

Ouch sorry. In my defense, I must say my game version didn't came with a manual. Or box. Or even a real CD. I said enough.

Still I claim the zerg overmind is much smarter than the Tyrannid overmind. One is able to plot the aquisition of high powered artifacts hidden in planets, the other, well, goes to where the food is.

I feel that people are underestimating the Hive Mind here. It's able to operate both at a galatic level, co-ordinating strikes between systems light years apart, and at the tactical level, directly ordering indviual guants around, all while ensuring new nids are made to replace losses. Indevidual nids may fight like animals, yes, but the race is just as tacially capable as the zerg, able to bring maxium combat power to bear at the point is chooses.

It's just that it's points of choice are different than the zergs. the zergs are looking to perfect their form and are after a artifact to do so. the nids feel thier form is fine, and that they just need to make more of themselves. Hence, thier are after the one rescource that matters to them: biomass.



Wouldn't the Zerg kill all the Tyranid workers before they have a chance to actually build any troops?

what is this 'worker' you refer too? no one has ever seen anything nid animal that was not a warrior. The closest seen are the rippers, who eat the biomass then chuck themselves into open stomachs to reclaim the biomass. some of the plant things (the aforementions stomachs, the capliary towers, etc) are non combat and used purely for resoruce gathering, but they are terrian.

you're thinking in RTS terms about an oppent who doesn't have to obey the rules of RTS.

[WNxHasoroth]

To conclude:

Zerg, are the Tyranids kid brother, the one who tags along at parties and giggles at the girls big bros talking to.

God forbid little brother tries to take on big brother because he'll get smacked down.

But when little brother becomes big brother, then we watch out.

To be honest, if the two ever went into a head to head combat, they'd assimilate each other into a super breed and then they'd really be a problem.

[Zenos]

Zergs don't even need organic matter to multiply themselves. They can do it out of rock and gas. And there is far more rock and gas than organic matter in the universe.

Anyway, where is the fluff suport that zergs can assimilate other creatures DNA? From what I remember, the zerg don't assimilate other creatures DNA, rather they evolve their larvas to become whatever's needed, just like in a ant colony there are ant warriors and ant workers, completely diferent from each other yet of the same species.

Anyway, I could claim that the Overmind and cerebrates are far smarter than the Tyrannid command, since they were able to identify and capture not only powerfull human psichics but also find and capture powerfull artifacts to aid their campaign, while the Tyrannids strategy can be summarized to "find food, eat food".

I still argue that the zergs have an huge advantage in the ability to infest powerfll beings and bring them to their control. It takes a lot of time, yeah, but an infested librarian/chaos sorceror/tau crisis suit/titan would be something to fear.

About the first paragraph, I think I remember reading about the 'nids devouring mineral deposits and the oceans on the worlds they attack.

[Mr. Scaly]

Not particularly. Tyranids come up with new forms, but they show far more of a preference for simply enhancing breeds already in use. It's the zerg who haven't found forms good enough for long term use, they just haven't been around long enough to come up with something that won't just be thrown out with the next batch of DNA.

As for energy spent on-route, Tyranids have come up with ways to lessen the impact of that. Not completely eradicate it, but they have adjusted to it. As for Zerg reproducing quickly, thats RTS time, it just wouldn't be fun if you actually had to sit through the time it takes for actual hatchlings and zerglings to be made, not even talking about the more advanced breeds. From the Starcraft manual and what I've guessed at, it DOES take time for them to reproduce, just like the tyranids. The difference being 'nids will come close to doubling their number for each day their 'eating' a planet.


On note of Hierophant vs. Torrasquethingie, the T thingie wouldn't remain in the Hierophant for very long. It'd only be in there long enough to be transported to a digestion pool to be broken down and assimilated.

Nuts, how'd I miss this?

The part about zerg not finding forms good enough for long term use isn't exactly true. Cerebrates were developed by the Overmind early on for delegation purposes. Overlords (which were also derived from the first spacegoing species the zerg encountered) and Queens were also created pretty early to oversee resource management. Zerglings were added more recently, mostly because they were derived from a species on a planet near the Koprulu sector. It's a pick and choose kind of thing...the Overmind decides a particular strain of DNA will be useful and has it created into new zerg breeds.

And the zerg do improve themselves too. Lurkers evolved from hydralisks, Guardians and Devourers from Mutalisks, Banelings (Starcraft 2) from zerglings etc.

Though that hierophant does look pretty darn big...

[Fanatic-Templar]

On the other hand, the Tyranids are used to operating on a turn-bases basis. They would be completely overwhelmed by the Zerg's real-time attacks.

Also, the entire Tyranid species could presumeable be eradicated by a Korean Cerebrate with six zerglings, three hydralisks and an Overlord.

[Zenos]

On the other hand, the Tyranids are used to operating on a turn-bases basis. They would be completely overwhelmed by the Zerg's real-time attacks.

Also, the entire Tyranid species could presumeable be eradicated by a Korean Cerebrate with six zerglings, three hydralisks and an Overlord.

Well, there's a mod for Dawn of War which allows you to use tyranids. And those Tyranids are terrible when they have gathered up a big mob...

And as far as I remember, a Norwegian guy won in a Starcraft championship against Koreans. Just give him a little time training and he will be doing winwin.

[Oslecamo]

Well, there's a mod for Dawn of War which allows you to use tyranids. And those Tyranids are terrible when they have gathered up a big mob...

And as far as I remember, a Norwegian guy won in a Starcraft championship against Koreans. Just give him a little time training and he will be doing winwin.

What mode is this you're talking off? I love the computer game and certainly would love to put the tyrannids against the other races.

[Lord Herman]

Behold: The Tyranid Mod (http://tyranids.dowfiles.com/portal.php)

[Warshrike]

Err... Ok, Short starcraft history listen??

And lo', on a pre-linked site!!
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Zerg
Two points from this I just wish to highlight, though I'd hope you read it anyway.


The Overmind sent its minions into space, attacking the unsuspecting Xel'Naga. Despite the ancient race's best efforts, it was overwhelmed as the Zerg crashed into the hulls of its ships. Within a few hours the Zerg laid waste to the Xel'Naga fleet.
Oh I'm sorry, are these the same genetic engineers who steered them on their path to galactic devourment, and created th Protoss, too?? Gee. Hmmn. Hours, you say?? I can imagine the Xel'Naga having some pretty damned cool tech, considering they were meant to be MORE advanced that the 'toss. I mean, you seem to be going for Fluff with the nids, so...


The Overmind dissected the memories of the Xel'Naga experiments with the Protoss. The Zerg then devoted their energies to seeking out the powerful Protoss in the hope of absorbing them into the Swarm, uniting purity of form and of essence, to create a totally "perfect" being.
Hey, you know, I'm pretty sure that even if the Zerg haven't gathered enough Protoss DNA from eating their HOMEWORLD then Duran DID kind of go and combine the two anyway, meaning that there IS a Hybrid Zerg/Toss out there, somewhere...

I still have money on the zerg, whether we're going Game stats OR Fluff.

[Eita]

(1) The Xel'Naga are shown as rather naive and were taken by surprise (2) We mean Zerg dammit! Not the Zerg/Toss hybrid.

Anyways, all of Starcraft is essentially a watered down version of Warhammer: 40K.

Oh, and Templar, please tell me that was a joke...

[WNxHasoroth]

The same Zerg tossed back time and time again by the Terrans with a lower tech level than the constantly beaten humans in Wahammer 40k (beaten by the 'nids no less)

Tyranids are meaner, bigger, tougher, and have tons more. Zergs are a distant cousin. 'Nuff said.

[Eita]

Actually, Nids have won and lost same as Zerg. The Nids just have a whole lot more foreboding on their side and are pretty much guaranteed to win.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Err... Ok, Short starcraft history listen??

And lo', on a pre-linked site!!
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Zerg
Two points from this I just wish to highlight, though I'd hope you read it anyway.


Oh I'm sorry, are these the same genetic engineers who steered them on their path to galactic devourment, and created th Protoss, too?? Gee. Hmmn. Hours, you say?? I can imagine the Xel'Naga having some pretty damned cool tech, considering they were meant to be MORE advanced that the 'toss. I mean, you seem to be going for Fluff with the nids, so...

It's also worth mentioning that the Xel'Naga were portrayed as a very peaceful and scientific people. They may have had cool tech but how much of it was REALLY devoted to weaponry and defense?



Hey, you know, I'm pretty sure that even if the Zerg haven't gathered enough Protoss DNA from eating their HOMEWORLD then Duran DID kind of go and combine the two anyway, meaning that there IS a Hybrid Zerg/Toss out there, somewhere...

I still have money on the zerg, whether we're going Game stats OR Fluff.

By fluff and game stats? The 'nids probably still win. As has been stated, the zerg are a watered down version of Tyranids. Blizzard admits to it. More importantly the Tyranids are simply much more of a threat. The destruction of a single planet wouldn't phase the Tyranid (I mean one they were currently devouring by someone else) but such a thing shocked and surprised the Overmind of the Zerg.

Even in a more limited combat situation, the Tyranid simply have more options. It's all well and good the Zerg try and lure powerful people and artifacts to use, but the Tyranids don't need them. The fact the Zerg are that desperate for them speaks more about weakness then strength, since their not relying on their own power. Tyranids will not only ignore artifacts or people (beyond wanting to do to them what they want to do to anyone), but it doesn't matter that they do. Zerg ignore something like that and it's a hit to them or it'll significantly boost their power by doing so.

To Mr. Scaly,
Oh, I know they aren't set and keep evolving but those evolutions are set because...well the Starcraft game at the time could only support so many different variations. Tyranids have a much larger pool to work with.

It's also worth noting Zerg try to hold unto planets to use it as a perpetual spawning ground. Also not so with the 'nids.

[Artemician]

Damn it, why is this thing even going on?

The Zerg are Tyranids-lite. They are a watered-down version of the Tyranids, scaled to fit a smaller universe. Blizzard admits it, even.

Give it a rest, fellows!

[mikeejimbo]

One thing is certain, no matter who wins, everyone else in the universe loses.

[Artemician]

One thing is certain, no matter who wins, everyone else in the universe loses.

Agreed, except for the "no matter who wins" portion. The Tyranids will win.

Fresh from their assimilation of the zerg, who bring flying superiority and increasingly more efficient seeding techniques to the Swarm, the new Hive Fleet will be the stuff of nightmares.

Not to mention, the Zerg have a lot of nice one-offs that will do wonders when mass-produced, which the Tyranids have the biomass-dustrial capacity to do. A battatlion of Tarrasques anyone? Armies of Infested Psykers?

[WNxHasoroth]

Actually, Nids have won and lost same as Zerg. The Nids just have a whole lot more foreboding on their side and are pretty much guaranteed to win.

Zerg aren't making the Terran ponder ideas of recruiting everyone to fight back.

The 'Nids on the other hand... Check the new Codex for details. And a slightly butchered quote: "It is my belief, that only by increasing the Imperium's current rate of recruitment by 500% will we stand a chance of standing against the Tyranids. This would entail the recruitment of every man, woman, and child."

[Kyeudo]

First, a preface to this post: I love the Zerg and the Tyranids. I play Zerg because I love Tyranids and vice versa. I also believe that if you were to bring the full force of the Tyranid to bear agains the full force of the Zerg that the Tyranids would win due to massive number differences, barring miraculous tactics or sheer dumb luck.

However, that doesn't display the true strengths and weaknesses of the two races. In an even fight, who would win? By even, I mean, if both the Tyranids and the Zerg were given the same resources and pitted in a grudge match, who would win?

To make a comparison, I will assume the following: 1 unit of minerals or 1 unit of vespene gas in the Starcraft Universe is equivalent to 1 point in Warhammer 40k.

The two races non-advantages:

First, Zerg do not need to breathe. They operate just fine in vacuum. Thus the Tyranid's ability to poison or drink an atmosphere is void. Only complete extermination can keep them from a planet. Tyranids, while they need to breathe, seem to be capable of holding their breath long enough to perform drops from orbit (a common tactic empoyed by Gargoyles), so vacuum will not be an issue in space battles.
Second, both races are largely immune to fear, so neither side is going to scare the other, even with psionic powers.
Third, the Shadow in the Warp does not affect the Zerg in anyway, just as two different swarms of Tyranids do not interfere with each other.
Fourth, because both the Zerg and the Tyranids can extract DNA and adapt via directed evolution, neither race can claim the advantage.


Warp Travel

Both races apparently have warp travel. Since no way to directly compare their speed of travel is possibly, both are assumed to travel at similar speeds. However, only Tyranid hive ships can perform warp travel, where as any flight capable Zerg is warp capable.
Advantage: Zerg


The Tyranid Hivemind vs the Zerg Overmind

Both the Tyranids and the Zerg have similar hierarchies of command.
Overmind -> Cerebrate -> Overlord -> Other Zerg
Hivemind -> Fleet Norn Queen -> Synapse Creature -> Other Tyranid
However, while the structure of the two are similar, there are major differences. Each step in the Tyranid chain of command is merely a signal beacon for the Tyranid Hivemind, and so only the uppermost level is capable of creativity and strategic thinking, whereas Zerg Cerebrates are capable of their own strategic planning, seperate from the Overmind.

Because Cerebrates are incapable of disobeying orders from the Overmind, and are unable to willingly harm the Swarm, their individual creativity adds to the finnesse with which the Zerg can perform tacticly. Stupid Cerebrates do not last long in the Swarm.

Also, individual losses to the Zerg chain of command happen rarely, due to the reincarnation abilities of the Zerg, making the chain of command difficult to disrupt. The Tyranid command structure is more fragile, as the loss of a Tyranid Norn Queen can be a disaster for the entire fleet as it works to resort the psychic links between their members, and this is recorded as having happened at least once in the Tyranid Codex. A single Synapse creature lost disrupts the local control of the Tyranids, while the loss of an Overlord merely increase the strain of control on the other Overlords and/or the Cerebrate.

Advantage: Zerg.


Out of Control behavior

Both races have difficulty when their composite members are cut off from psychic control, losing the co-ordination of their forces. Both races individual members tend to continue to perform their normal functions (attack, defense, or resource gathering) but are hampered when doing so. However, the Tyranid have strains that continue to operate even when isolated from the Hivemind, while the Zerg have none.
Advantage: Tyranid


Range of Control

Tyranid Synapse creatures can only maintain control over short distances, no more than half the distance that a bolter can fire (I assume this is roughly a mile for scaling purposes). Zerg Overlords, on the other hand, can maintain control so long as they are in the same region as the Zerg they control.
Advantage: Zerg


Zerglings vs Hormagaunts

The two creatures are roughly the same size and travel at similar speeds. The Hormagaunt is slightly tougher and better armored than the Zerging, but the Zergling is cheaper to produce and has the ability to burrow and thus avoid detection. One Hormagaunt is better than one Zergling, but two Zerglings spell death to a single Hormagaunt. On the same resources, a Tyranid can deploy 2 Hormagaunts to every 3-4 Zerglings, meaning there are more than enough Zerglings to prevail, dispite losses.
Advantage: Zerg


Gaunts vs Hydralisks

The two creatures have armaments that are similar in offensive power, similar armor, and similar speed. Hydralisks are tougher, more accurate, have the ability to burrow, and have a longer range. They are also more expensive than Gaunts. The average Gaunt costs a sixth of what a Hydralisk costs. Should a swarm of hydras kill three times their number as the Gaunts aproach, the Gaunts will overwhelm the Hydras once they get within firing range.
Advantage: Tyranid


So far, Zerg has the overall advantage, but I'll continue to evaluate more unit equivalencies later.

[Oslecamo]

Hmm, the zergs can actually operate indepently. When the first overmind was slain, that didn't stop the remaining zerg troops to overrun the Eldar. Kerrigan didn't seem to mind a lot anyway. She actually started building her own army almost imediatily.

Also, you forgot one big zerg advantage: tyrannids need organic matter to produce more troops. Zergs make more troops out of gas and rocks. And there is far more gas and rocks than organic matter in the universe.

Like the Tyrannid, the total size of the zerg swarm is unknown, so you can't automatically assume the Tyrannids have more guys.

[Mr. Scaly]

To be fair, only flying zerg are ever shown travelling through space at high speed, but I think we can assume that overlords are carrying ground troops. It shouldn't matter too much though.

[MeklorIlavator]

Hmm, the zergs can actually operate indepently. When the first overmind was slain, that didn't stop the remaining zerg troops to overrun the Eldar. Kerrigan didn't seem to mind a lot anyway. She actually started building her own army almost imediatily.

Also, you forgot one big zerg advantage: tyrannids need organic matter to produce more troops. Zergs make more troops out of gas and rocks. And there is far more gas and rocks than organic matter in the universe.

Like the Tyrannid, the total size of the zerg swarm is unknown, so you can't automatically assume the Tyrannids have more guys.
Uhh, the celebrates can act independently, but as seen when the dark protoss kill a celebrate, the swarm goes crazy. And Kerrigan is supposed to be similar to the celebrates in that she can act independently.

Oh, and the zerg can only use supposedly rare minerals and gases to reproduce, so they don't truly have access to all inorganic matter, only a small fraction. Also, one planet that the tyranids left had its radius reduce to 7/8 its original size, so I believe its safe to assume that tyranids use inorganic matter too.

[Oslecamo]

Also, one planet that the tyranids left had its radius reduce to 7/8 its original size, so I believe its safe to assume that tyranids use inorganic matter too.

That means that the Tyrannids can feed on magma and the hardest rocks and metals. This doesn't make any sense at all. If the tyrannids can feed on magma they would laugh at flame throwers and energy weapons. An orbital bombardment would be nothing more than a shower. However, flamers are very effecient weapons against the tyrannids. So something is very wrong here.

My guess it's that that statement is just imperial propaganda. That or the Imperium of men never actually won any battle agains the tyrannids, since when your enemies feed on magma, there isn't really much you can do to hurt them.

[puppyavenger]

The two races non-advantages:

First, Zerg do not need to breathe. They operate just fine in vacuum. Thus the Tyranid's ability to poison or drink an atmosphere is void. Only complete extermination can keep them from a planet. Tyranids, while they need to breathe, seem to be capable of holding their breath long enough to perform drops from orbit (a common tactic empoyed by Gargoyles), so vacuum will not be an issue in space battles.
Exept the ship, the ships can do just fine, how does something breath in vacume anyway?
Second, both races are largely immune to fear, so neither side is going to scare the other, even with psionic powers.
can the Overmind or the Celabrets feeel Fear?
Third, the Shadow in the Warp does not affect the Zerg in anyway, just as two different swarms of Tyranids do not interfere with each other.
The Tyranids are controlled by a single mind, the Zerg are a completly separete entity
Fourth, because both the Zerg and the Tyranids can extract DNA and adapt via directed evolution, neither race can claim the advantage.
agreed


Warp Travel

Both races apparently have warp travel. Since no way to directly compare their speed of travel is possibly, both are assumed to travel at similar speeds. However, only Tyranid hive ships can perform warp travel, where as any flight capable Zerg is warp capable.
Advantage: Zerg
source please?


The Tyranid Hivemind vs the Zerg Overmind

Both the Tyranids and the Zerg have similar hierarchies of command.
Overmind -> Cerebrate -> Overlord -> Other Zerg
Hivemind -> Fleet Norn Queen -> Synapse Creature -> Other Tyranid
However, while the structure of the two are similar, there are major differences. Each step in the Tyranid chain of command is merely a signal beacon for the Tyranid Hivemind, and so only the uppermost level is capable of creativity and strategic thinking, whereas Zerg Cerebrates are capable of their own strategic planning, seperate from the Overmind.
Wrong, any synapse creature is smarter than a human. also the Tyranid line goes like the
HiveMind>Fleetmind>Ship>norm Queen>Domintrix and Tyrant>other synapse>other

Because Cerebrates are incapable of disobeying orders from the Overmind, and are unable to willingly harm the Swarm, their individual creativity adds to the finnesse with which the Zerg can perform tacticly. Stupid Cerebrates do not last long in the Swarm.

Also, individual losses to the Zerg chain of command happen rarely, due to the reincarnation abilities of the Zerg, making the chain of command difficult to disrupt. The Tyranid command structure is more fragile, as the loss of a Tyranid Norn Queen can be a disaster for the entire fleet as it works to resort the psychic links between their members, and this is recorded as having happened at least once in the Tyranid Codex. A single Synapse creature lost disrupts the local control of the Tyranids, while the loss of an Overlord merely increase the strain of control on the other Overlords and/or the Cerebrate.
wrong, a Norm Queen dieing just makes the other ships make more Norm Queens, It is stated in the new Tyranid codex. Also The Tyranids do not have a "Overmind" to kill, so you can't pull a Tassaldar on them.

Advantage: Zerg.Tyranid


Out of Control behavior

Both races have difficulty when their composite members are cut off from psychic control, losing the co-ordination of their forces. Both races individual members tend to continue to perform their normal functions (attack, defense, or resource gathering) but are hampered when doing so. However, the Tyranid have strains that continue to operate even when isolated from the Hivemind, while the Zerg have none.
Advantage: Tyranid


Range of Control

Tyranid Synapse creatures can only maintain control over short distances, no more than half the distance that a bolter can fire (I assume this is roughly a mile for scaling purposes). Zerg Overlords, on the other hand, can maintain control so long as they are in the same region as the Zerg they control.
But there is no limit to the number of 'nids a synapse can control
Advantage: Zerg(Draw)


Zerglings vs Hormagaunts

The two creatures are roughly the same size and travel at similar speeds. The Hormagaunt is slightly tougher and better armored than the Zerging, but the Zergling is cheaper to produce and has the ability to burrow and thus avoid detection. One Hormagaunt is better than one Zergling, but two Zerglings spell death to a single Hormagaunt. On the same resources, a Tyranid can deploy 2 Hormagaunts to every 3-4 Zerglings, meaning there are more than enough Zerglings to prevail, dispite losses.
A hormagaunt can a stormtrooper(marine equivilent) in one solid hit, how many does it take Zerglins?
Advantage: Zerg


Gaunts vs Hydralisks

The two creatures have armaments that are similar in offensive power, similar armor, and similar speed. Hydralisks are tougher, more accurate, have the ability to burrow, and have a longer range. They are also more expensive than Gaunts. The average Gaunt costs a sixth of what a Hydralisk costs. Should a swarm of hydras kill three times their number as the Gaunts aproach, the Gaunts will overwhelm the Hydras once they get within firing range.
Advantage: Tyranid


So far, Zerg has the overall advantage, but I'll continue to evaluate more unit equivalencies later.

comments are in bold.

[Mr. Scaly]

comments are in bold.

Blasted spoilers...anyway, I'm responding to your bolded comments in order.

Non-advantages:

1) Tyranid ships maynot need to breathe but zerg air units have shown that they can fly in space just fine too.

2) The zerg are a completely separate entity, each controlled by a specific cerebrate. To quote StarCraftwiki, "They manifest the collective consciousness of the respective broods under their command and are therefore inseparable from the Overmind itself." They all follow one mind without question.

3) Yeah, no throwing weird evolutions in...just the existing units.

Warp travel:

1) Actually, I think the zerg need a cerebrate or the Overmind to travel at warp speed. The one cut scene I could find, it showed a portal opening and a zerg swarm moving through it. Other than that I guess they could just fly really fast.

Hive mind vs Overmind:

1) Since zerg cerebrates don't go anywhere without their hives that's mostly a moot point. They'll always be on hand to control them.

2) I know little about tyranid command structure, but only Tassadar could have pulled that off so the Overmind is mostly safe. Cerebrates are likewise difficult to damage, but though they can control zerg hives they can only give commands to overlords and larvae.

Range of Control:

1) Overlords don't have to get so close to enemy guns.

Zerglings vs hormagaunts:

1) What kind of equipment and armour do stormtroopers have?

[lipe44]

Zerg wins. Why? Because i never heard of Tyranids and if i never heard of them in all my years in internet then they are not worth it.

[Lady Tialait]

eek, my Hot pink 'nid army would crush my Computer Reajusted to see Zerg as Pink Zergs..


'Nids all the way...they r in ur base, eatin' ur units.

[Oslecamo]

Zerg wins. Why? Because i never heard of Tyranids and if i never heard of them in all my years in internet then they are not worth it.

Yeah, the poor bastards didn't even got a place in Dawn of War.

If they would candidate for something, zergs would win.

[puppyavenger]

Blasted spoilers...anyway, I'm responding to your bolded comments in order.

Non-advantages:

1) Tyranid ships maynot need to breathe but zerg air units have shown that they can fly in space just fine too.
kay then
2) The zerg are a completely separate entity, each controlled by a specific cerebrate. To quote StarCraftwiki, "They manifest the collective consciousness of the respective broods under their command and are therefore inseparable from the Overmind itself." They all follow one mind without question.
I was talking about the shadows influence on them, They are alien to the 'nids so they are not immune to it.
3) Yeah, no throwing weird evolutions in...just the existing units.

Warp travel:

1) Actually, I think the zerg need a cerebrate or the Overmind to travel at warp speed. The one cut scene I could find, it showed a portal opening and a zerg swarm moving through it. Other than that I guess they could just fly really fast.
okay
Hive mind vs Overmind:

1) Since zerg cerebrates don't go anywhere without their hives that's mostly a moot point. They'll always be on hand to control them.
the same can be said for the Fleet and the 'nids seeing as the Tyranids are part of the Fleetmind
2) I know little about tyranid command structure, but only Tassadar could have pulled that off so the Overmind is mostly safe. Cerebrates are likewise difficult to damage, but though they can control zerg hives they can only give commands to overlords and larvae.
Is this taking place in a vacume or is it a plot-hole confrontation? if the latter than the Hive Mind just needs one Dark Templar
Range of Control:

1) Overlords don't have to get so close to enemy guns.
Synapse are built to withstand enemy guns
Zerglings vs hormagaunts:

1) What kind of equipment and armour do stormtroopers have? Carapace armour(it is not as tough as power armour or necron skin but it can withstand quite a bit of punishment, and if I remember correctly a powerful rapid-fir weopon, as well as squad weopond, anyway it's mentioned that they are basicly better-equiped and more harshly trained Navy Seals/SAS/ect. in Space.
once again comments in bold.

[GoC]

5-Hive Tyrant, meet the overmind's bodyguard himself: the Torrasque. You may remember him from Brood war campaign when trying to capture the overmind. This little fella eats siege tanks shots for lunch, and has more armor and the best melee base damage in the game. Plus if you kill him he regenerates a little time later as long as the overmind stands.

100 Space Marines each fire a single salvo. Down goes the Torrasque.
Like many have said the problem is the difference in scale.

[Mr. Scaly]

once again comments in bold.



The Shadow in the Warp? I've heard about it but don't know what it does or what effect it would have... What does that do?

Alright then, cool. So both have a pretty strong command structure. Incidentally, do the tyranids have a single entity governing the swarm like the Overmind?

If we're keeping out possible evolutions, then we have to keep out absorption of dark templars too.

True, but when you're only losing a few hitpoints at a time the longer you stand in the line of fire the worse itgets.

I'm going to assume that stormtrooper power armour is similar to marine power armour then. Setting aside the ingame statistics, cut scenes show zerglings killing marines fairly easily when they close in for battle.

[Eita]

Zerg aren't making the Terran ponder ideas of recruiting everyone to fight back.

The 'Nids on the other hand... Check the new Codex for details. And a slightly butchered quote: "It is my belief, that only by increasing the Imperium's current rate of recruitment by 500% will we stand a chance of standing against the Tyranids. This would entail the recruitment of every man, woman, and child."

I did say that the Tyranids had far more foreboding and were pretty much guaranteed to win.

The Zerg are Diet-'Nid.

[Eita]

The Shadow in the Warp? I've heard about it but don't know what it does or what effect it would have... What does that do?

Alright then, cool. So both have a pretty strong command structure. Incidentally, do the tyranids have a single entity governing the swarm like the Overmind?

If we're keeping out possible evolutions, then we have to keep out absorption of dark templars too.

True, but when you're only losing a few hitpoints at a time the longer you stand in the line of fire the worse itgets.

I'm going to assume that stormtrooper power armour is similar to marine power armour then. Setting aside the ingame statistics, cut scenes show zerglings killing marines fairly easily when they close in for battle.

In order:

(1) Just get out if you haven't heard of the Shadow in the Warp... (2) The entire swarm is the Overmind according to our current information. Odds are though, if there is one central figure, it'll be something that can actually fight. (3) Fine then. Psychic attacks kill the Cerebrates instead. (4) Same problem with the Overlords. Seriously. They move slow as hell. (5) *uncontrollable laughter* Carapace armor is not even near Power Armor. Carapace armor is what Scout Marines wear.

[puppyavenger]

The Shadow in the Warp? I've heard about it but don't know what it does or what effect it would have... What does that do?
1. drives all Phykers insane
2. makes Warp travel impossible
3. makes the FTL communication of WH40k impossibnle
Alright then, cool. So both have a pretty strong command structure. Incidentally, do the tyranids have a single entity governing the swarm like the Overmind?
No, they have a completly decentrelised(and thus pretty much imortal) hive mind, though the Hive mind does have a mind if thts what you mean.
If we're keeping out possible evolutions, then we have to keep out absorption of dark templars too.
kay
True, but when you're only losing a few hitpoints at a time the longer you stand in the line of fire the worse itgets.
yes but the are powerful parts of the War machine themselves, also of the Synapse they are either ships, Titans, protected by Guaredian creatures or have a force field around them
I'm going to assume that stormtrooper power armour is similar to marine power armour then. Setting aside the ingame statistics, cut scenes show zerglings killing marines fairly easily when they close in for battle.

Cutscenes also have the zergl, protoss, TErran and pretty much anyone else the plot demands dieing pretty quickly.

[LordVader]

Gaunts beat Zerglings. You failed to mention Termagaunts, which are equipped with weaponry that can kill a Zergling easily. I would rate Hormagaunts as being slightly better than Zerglings as well, since they are human-sized where Zerglings are slightly smaller.

Also, the reason that less people have heard of Tyranids is because they are a tabletop wargaming race that has not been adapted to any major online things. Remember kids, just because you don't see it on the Internet, doesn't mean it's not important.:smallwink:

I will also headshot the next person who calls Space Marines "stormtroopers"! :smallmad: Space Marine armor is far superior to crappy Terran Marine armor. Terran Marine armor is just metal welded together. Space Marine armor is made of a much stronger substance, able to resist pretty much anything that's not a dedicated anti-tank weapon.

[Eita]

Indeed. Stormtroopers are specially trained Imperial Guard units who are just more experienced Scout Marines.

[LordVader]

I think Scout Marines might even be better than Stormtroopers, because they're stronger and tougher and have bolters...but Stormtroopers have better training. Tough call.

[Eita]

Stormtrooper Indoctrinator: You are the best, of the best, of the best!

Stormtrooper: Then why do the Scout Marines get bolters?

Stormtrooper Indoctrinator: Commisar, kill that man.

[LordVader]

:smallbiggrin:

It's so true!

"But sir, we're horribly overpriced compared to Sisters of Battle! In fact, I can't even see why a Witch Hunters player would ever use us!"

"Dare you question the game designers! Die!" *blam blam blam*

[Eita]

???

They're the Inquisitor's meatshields.

[Mr. Scaly]

So much to reply to. ^^

Eita:

1) No.
2) Okay, cool. So 'Hive Mind' is meant literally.
3) Except that if they did then the Protoss would have had a much easier time against the zerg. They fought cerebrates and found them regenerating. They're smart...they would have tried psychic attacks.
4) True, though the speed can be improved, but Overlords don't need to be near the frontline to control troops.
5) ...So your argument is that Space marines (not stormtroopers) have better armour. How about giving some evidence what Space marine armour is like, because the CMC-300 is impressive in its own right.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/CMC_Powered_Combat_Suit

Puppy Avenger:

1) Okay, thanks. Does it disrupt communication from psychically linked creatures too?

The cut scene part: touche.

Lordvader:

Anything human sized can die easily to anything smaller. Sci fi has taught us this time and time again. :smallsmile:

And could you provide some detail on power armour? It would help in this.

[puppyavenger]

1) Okay, thanks. Does it disrupt communication from psychically linked creatures too?

The cut scene part: touche.

.

if it uses the warp(read Phykic powers) it either
a. drives you erivov=cible insane and this happens to all Phykers any way when the shadow aprouches
or b. doen't work
a is the most likely.

[LordVader]

I don't know a ton of detail, but I'll surmise as best I can. I believe it's made out of some sort of ceramite, or some such.

The reason I cite it as better than Terran Marine armor is as follows. Terran Marines are carved open by Zerglings with laughable ease, both in the novels and the in-game cutscenes. A Hormagaunt, which is essentially a Zergling, will not be able to penetrate Space Marine armor effectively at all with its claws, thus leading me to the conclusion that Space Marine armor is indeed tougher.

I'll also give Bolters as an example. I have heard them as being cited as ~.75 cal and firing rounds that are essentially min-rockets. Power Armor can shrug multiple bolter rounds off before it is compromised, or even Heavy Bolter fire (think of it as the machine gun to the rifle) but I have found no evidence of Terran armor having this kind of durability.Finally, even if the armor is breached, a Space Marine is a vastly superior fighter than a Terran Marine, with amazing natural regeneration capabilities (think Wolverine, but not quite as tough) but that's irrelevant here.

Also, in a battle between two melee-oriented beasts, I believe size does matter somewhat, as they'll be crashing into each other, and thus the Hormagaunt has a slight edge. It's still basically down to chance, but it's there.

[Eita]

1: Still though, come prepared man...
2: Or a being of complete and utter doom who has eaten galaxies. Both are fun to contemplate.
3: Protoss psychic attacks seem to focus more on physical damage. It is stated that Cerebrates are revived because the Overmind remembers them. Could he remember them if their very soul was wiped from existence?
4: Touché
5: So is Space Marine Power Armor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Imperium_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29 #Power_Armour)

[LordVader]

The Shadow in the Warp drives all but the strongest psykers utterly bat**** crazy. Basically, if you're not a Space Marine Librarian or incredibly strong, you're boned.

Tyranid commanders don't really need to be near the frontline either, IIRC. I've read a novel where they are battling 'Nids, and they ultimately destroy the fleet by taking out the Norn Queen in orbit. As long as the Norn Queen is alive, they'll just keep on pumping out Tyranids, with more synapse. Norn Queens are the ultimate battlefield commanders of the Tyranids, with the non-physical Hive Mind (wait-this sounds familiar! Gasp! :smallbiggrin:) calling the overall shots.


Also, I think you'll find Hive Tyrants a bit tougher than the average Overlord. :smallwink:

[Mr. Scaly]

I don't know a ton of detail, but I'll surmise as best I can. I believe it's made out of some sort of ceramite, or some such.

The reason I cite it as better than Terran Marine armor is as follows. Terran Marines are carved open by Zerglings with laughable ease, both in the novels and the in-game cutscenes. A Hormagaunt, which is essentially a Zergling, will not be able to penetrate Space Marine armor effectively at all with its claws, thus leading me to the conclusion that Space Marine armor is indeed tougher.

I'll also give Bolters as an example. I have heard them as being cited as ~.75 cal and firing rounds that are essentially min-rockets. Power Armor can shrug multiple bolter rounds off before it is compromised, or even Heavy Bolter fire (think of it as the machine gun to the rifle) but I have found no evidence of Terran armor having this kind of durability.Finally, even if the armor is breached, a Space Marine is a vastly superior fighter than a Terran Marine, with amazing natural regeneration capabilities (think Wolverine, but not quite as tough) but that's irrelevant here.

Also, in a battle between two melee-oriented beasts, I believe size does matter somewhat, as they'll be crashing into each other, and thus the Hormagaunt has a slight edge. It's still basically down to chance, but it's there.

Okay, cool. That does sound better. The reason I asked is that someone described hormagaunts as killing Space marines in one hit and I was looking for a standard to compare them with zerglings. If they're not comparable though then... (shrugs)

True that...short guys have problems. But zerglings are half as expensive as hormagaunts, and can double team them with sheer numbers. But yeah...luck screws everything up.

Heh. Overlords are flying targets. So yeah, they'll last a long while. But combined fire will kill anything eventually.

Eita:

1) I do look these things up...I actually couldn't find anything on what it is. Just stuff about the hive fleet invasions.
2) It's an ambitious critter. Not satisfied wit perfection then?
3) If it was anyone but the Overmind, I'd say no. But the Overmind created these guys from himself...they're more or less a part of his will. If anyone could then he could. That might be what Dark templar energy does though.
4) But those hive Tyrant things are much better armed than Overlords.
5) Yeah, that does look much better than Marine armour. Are gaunts and hormagaunts effective against it?

Puppy Avenger:

Hmm...that's...not good.

[LordVader]

Gaunts and hormagaunts are pathetically ineffective against Space Marine armor.

Seriously, they pretty much bounce off.

I'd say that the Overmind could muscle his way past the Shadow in the Warp, though. So the Zerg will still have Cerebrate control.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Gaunts and hormagaunts are pathetically ineffective against Space Marine armor.

Seriously, they pretty much bounce off.

I'd say that the Overmind could muscle his way past the Shadow in the Warp, though. So the Zerg will still have Cerebrate control.

I don't think you understand the Shadow...there has been absolutely nothing that has muscled it's way past it. Nothing. Not even the Astronomicon thing that the God-Emperor of Man powers all the time. I'm not saying it's imprentrable, but at the very least whatever is trying has GOT to have more psychic power then the Hive Mind.

This is a moot point though since I'm not entirely sure it would even interrupt Cerebrate control. Probably not.

And yes hormagaunts and termagaunts are pretty ineffectual against Space Marine armor...with their claws anyway. Tyranid bio-weapons can punch through. 'sides...genestealers would be more the kind of thing you throw at Space Marines.


I'm getting side-tracked though. It doesn't matter if every space-faring Zerg has warp ability, it won't work. That sort of thing is exactly what the Shadow does prevent. And Overlords are giant floating targets for Gargoyles which are always present in mass quantities in any invasion. Gargoyles that might escape Scourge notice (don't know how big the Scourge are) and the Tyranids WILL notice that if they take out the giant floating meatsacks that their enemies become much more disorganized.

[LordVader]

I believe that the Zerg Overmind itself is comparable in power to the Hive Mind, though.

Besides, if Tigirius can get past the Shadow in the Warp, I'm pretty sure the Overmind can.

I was using gaunts as an example for the pathetic ineffectuality of Zerglings against Marines-you're quite right. You'd need to bring Warriors (or Hydralisks, the equivalent of Warriors) to start having a chance against Marines.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I believe that the Zerg Overmind itself is comparable in power to the Hive Mind, though.

The thing is though that the Overmind just plain isn't. The Hive Mind is essentially the accumulated psychic energy and mind of EVERY Tyranid, not just the ones present at a given battle, but every single one of them and the Tyranid vastly outnumber the Zerg even if only a smaller force is allowed to actually do battle.


Besides, if Tigirius can get past the Shadow in the Warp, I'm pretty sure the Overmind can.

I was using gaunts as an example for the pathetic ineffectuality of Zerglings against Marines-you're quite right. You'd need to bring Warriors (or Hydralisks, the equivalent of Warriors) to start having a chance against Marines.

Who's Tigirius? Pretty sure I don't recognize the name. But Hydralisks are most certainly not the equivalent to Warriors. Not in the least. Hydralisks would be the equivalent of...Raveners. Not Warriors. The Zerg really don't have anything thats like the synapse Tyranid. And as I said, gaunts are still very much a threat to Marines. They don't take any Tyranid lightly for a reason because in numbers gaunts will drag a Marine down and dismember him before moving unto the next one. Or just blast him with deathspitters and such.

[Eita]

Tigurius is the Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines and the only known being to survive contact with the Hive Mind. I'm pretty sure he didn't pierce the Shadow though...

As for the Emperor's Golden Beacon not getting through, that's mostly because the 'Nid invasions occurred near Ultramar, where the Astromican grows dim. Now then, did it still work when the 'Nids were going below the galactic plane?

[Kyeudo]

comments are in bold.

1. Tyranid ships carry their breathable air inside. That's the only explaination to Hive Ships sustainability.

2. I suppose I used the wrong reasoning, but the Zerg hive mind is immune to the Shadow in the Warp, since their psionic link does not involve the Warp.

3. Several cut scenes show the Zerg Swarm opening a warp rift without any particular equipment and is shown being used by all types of Zerg air units. It may be the projected psionic power of a Zerg Cerebrate, but no limitations have been shown. (Note: The warp travel used by the Zerg is not 40k Warp travel, relying on different principles.)

4. Taking out a Hive Tyrant causes no more disruption to Tyranids than any other Synapse Creature, and so are lumped into the same category. I do not know what a Domminatrix is (at least, not in the context of Tyranids).

5. I was pointing out that the individual links in the Tyranid chain of command are more vulnerable than the equivalent Zerg links and that the finnese of the Zerg Cerebrates outmatches the general finesse of the Hivemind. The Zerg still have an advantage, but only a slight advantage.

6. A hormagaunt can kill a stormtrooper in one round of assault combat, which represents a protracted melee, not in a single hit. The amount of time that a zergling can kill a marine in is similar.


once again comments in bold.

1. Synapse creatures may be built to withstand fire, but they have to get into range of enemy fire, or other Tyranids become in effective until new Synapse creatures can be brought to the front. They are making the best of a bad lot.



Back to comparisons, I just dug out my Tyranid Codex and double checked the point cost. My figures were off. Minerals/Vespene to Points conversion needs to be more of a 5 to 1 conversion factor.

Here is the biggest single advantage that the Zerg have over the Tyranid: the Scourge.

The Scourge are an answer to capital ships, which is something that Tyranid completely lack. Quickly produced, high power, and cheap. 6 Scourge can take out a protoss carrier at full power, so it should have a similar impact on Hive Ships. Even if you had to launch four times that many to take down a single hive ship, the carnage Scourge would cause amoung the Tyranid is insane.

[Warshrike]

Yeah, The Zerg don't use Warp Travel, and Cerebrates ARE pretty much immune to ALL psychic attacks other than that of the Dark Templar, anything else will INSTANTLY be healed. ((There's a quote on Fenix's StarCraft Wiki about that, how a completely destroyed Cerebrate on Aiur regenerated before his eyes)). Just thought I'd help with that part of the argument.

And you compare the Tyranid-Space Marine fight to the Zerg-Terran one. My arguement is that the Space Marines would be more comparable to the Protoss. A race whose Homeworld was overrun even AFTER the death of the Overmind. A race who, even with Terran Assistence, Almost lost the battle to kill said Overmind, winnin only because of Tassadar channeling Dark Templar energy and crashing the Gantrithor, a Super Carrier, into it. Not to mention that even THEN the Overmind regenerated.
Sure, Zerg may Pwn Terrans, but Terrans are weaker than SM's, though still comparable. And Terrans, even with out the Armour, use many things which SM's don't, for instance Hoverbikes, Cloaking, Mines, etc. And I think 3 Marines and a Firebat in a Bunker would be slightly stronger than a squad of Space Marines, and they still die pretty quick. A Firebat, incase you don't know, shoots two jets of flame, trumping the 1 used from a Flamer.
Protoss Zealot> than Space Marine.
6 Zerg Zerglings> Protoss Zealot.
Same with Dragoon. And Templar, depending on how he Psychic Storms. And a Dark Templar, if there's Detectors.

Oh, and what if the Zerg used Swarm, filled it with Hydras, making them immune to Range but still able to shoot, and also Ultralisks?? Then the Nids need to charge into a cloud spitting Needle Spines at them, then get through the Ultras.
Also, The Zerg have Base Defences. Sunken and Spore Colonies would give them a decent advantage. Sunkens shoot a massive Tentacle through the ground to emerge and impale the target, and by the size of the Tentacle, it could easily 1 hit kill a Hive Tyrant. The Spore Colony shoots a ball of acidish substance((I think, CIW)), which seeks a target, so moving doesn't help no matter how quick you are. This can hit a scourge, so I have no doubt it would kill Spore Mines, Gargoyles and larger Winged Tyranids pretty easily.
Also, I reckon a few Sunkens could take on a Dominatrix pretty easily, if they did it right... Impale it then wrap around that mutha'!!


Oh, and other things I just thought of; the Protoss/Zerg ARE a reality, because Duran has actually "seeded the Hybrids on hundreds of worlds".
So, while the Zerg may not yet have them personally, they do EXIST.
The Zerg have Cloaking Units. Not many, in fact, at the moment it stands at Kerrigan that we know of and have seen in action, but still, they exist.

Which reminds me, are we talking Kerrigan Controlled Zerg, or Overmind Controlled Zerg?? Because Kerry makes zerg about 50x more powerful, with a Human Sized leader who can move, cloak, make psionic storms, Negociate Alliances with pretty much anything for at least a while... And is generally smarter than the overmind.

Also, what about things like Hunter-Killers, Devouring Ones etc- All the Zerg "Heroes" which are technically still the same as other Zerg units, just heroes ingame??


And for those people who argue Terrans are Weaker than Space Marines, could I ask you post what you would say Terrans are roughly equal to in 40K??

Can anyone do a Recap of each side?? Someone fair, I'm biased to Zerg. Keeping in mind that I play Tyranids and yet play Protoss in Starcraft, I still think they're better.

[Destro_Yersul]

Terrans? I'd put them as the rough equivalent of Cadian Imperial Guard, but with better guns. Maybe Kasrkin? Kasrkin sounds right.

Scourge: I'd like to see them attack a hive ship. Really, I would. You think the nids wouldn't shoot them down? Scourge are physically weak. All they've got is their chain reaction acid explosion thing.

'Nids: "Oh look, there's something out there that isn't a Tyranid. Let's kill it and absorb its genetic material."

Bam, done.

And even the Ultralisk pales when compared to a Heirophant bio-titan. Heirophants eat Ultralisks for breakfast.

If the Zerg hide in a swarm so they can shoot out and the 'nids can't shoot in, they'll be overrun with Hormagaunts. And Warriors and 'Stealers. And probably a carnifex or two.

The Zerg win by having massive numerical advantage. The 'nids can out-Zerg the Zerg. Zerg lose.

Edit: Oh yes, and one other thing. Cerebrates regenerated because the Overmind reincarnated them. If we go with Kerrigan controlled zerg, there's no Overmind. No Overmind means no regenerating Cerebrates. And Kerrigan, while pretty awesome, just doesn't have the same psionic potential as a hive fleet. Once you count Zoanthropes and Tyrants, the 'nids have her outmatched.

[WNxHasoroth]

Imperial Admiral: I say, what is that thing? Looks like something the culinary officer makes. Full power! Gunnery Section, a firing solution if you please.

Gunnery Officer: Admiral, firing solution calculated. Lances are at full power!

Imperial Admiral: Fire!


Beams of thick, incandescent light, capable of leveling mountains into kilometer deep holes smash into the Tyranid Hive Ship. In shocked silence the Imperial Naval Crew watch the monster ship continue on, regenerating the gaping wounds swiftly.

Imperial Admiral: Bollocks.

Yeah sorry Warshrike, but capitalized words won't win the argument for you :smalltongue:. Also, please don't use game strats as a description as how someone would win, or else I'll have my Marines capture 66% of all SPs and force a take and hold victory, you dig?

The problem I see is that you can have say, a 2000 point force of Zerg versus Nids. 400 points an Ultralisk is five. Ultralisks armed with close combat weaponry, and nothing else. They seem to have trouble killing marines too if gameplay and the Ghost Video is any sign (I realize the Ghost video does show an Ultralisk eviscerating a Marine in one go but thats just one).

For the same price, I could get about three or four Nid Bio-Titans, armed with dedicated anti tank weapons, claws, and the ability to kill entire squads with their feet :smallamused:

Nids are bigger, meaner, tougher, scarier, gribblier and most importantly of all older. They just have so much more experience.

[puppyavenger]

1. Tyranid ships carry their breathable air inside. That's the only explaination to Hive Ships sustainability.

2. I suppose I used the wrong reasoning, but the Zerg hive mind is immune to the Shadow in the Warp, since their psionic link does not involve the Warp.
okay
3. Several cut scenes show the Zerg Swarm opening a warp rift without any particular equipment and is shown being used by all types of Zerg air units. It may be the projected psionic power of a Zerg Cerebrate, but no limitations have been shown. (Note: The warp travel used by the Zerg is not 40k Warp travel, relying on different principles.)

4. Taking out a Hive Tyrant causes no more disruption to Tyranids than any other Synapse Creature, and so are lumped into the same category. I do not know what a Domminatrix is (at least, not in the context of Tyranids).
Domintraxis if nI remember are the ground Queens of the Tyranids
5. I was pointing out that the individual links in the Tyranid chain of command are more vulnerable than the equivalent Zerg links and that the finnese of the Zerg Cerebrates outmatches the general finesse of the Hivemind. The Zerg still have an advantage, but only a slight advantage.
only up to celebret, a Tyrant is much less vunreble than a Overlord
6. A hormagaunt can kill a stormtrooper in one round of assault combat, which represents a protracted melee, not in a single hit. The amount of time that a zergling can kill a marine in is similar.



1. Synapse creatures may be built to withstand fire, but they have to get into range of enemy fire, or other Tyranids become in effective until new Synapse creatures can be brought to the front. They are making the best of a bad lot.
exept of course genstealers ect. however, like I said kill a overlord and the zerg production captincy is reduced, kill a Synapse and the 'nids just run towards the nearest one.

Back to comparisons, I just dug out my Tyranid Codex and double checked the point cost. My figures were off. Minerals/Vespene to Points conversion needs to be more of a 5 to 1 conversion factor.

Here is the biggest single advantage that the Zerg have over the Tyranid: the Scourge.

The Scourge are an answer to capital ships, which is something that Tyranid completely lack. Quickly produced, high power, and cheap. 6 Scourge can take out a protoss carrier at full power, so it should have a similar impact on Hive Ships. Even if you had to launch four times that many to take down a single hive ship, the carnage Scourge would cause amoung the Tyranid is insane.
umm yah, do you no what Tyanids use for shields? massive fields of giant spores to obsorb the hit.

comments, bold, you get the idea.

[Artemician]

Yeah, The Zerg don't use Warp Travel, and Cerebrates ARE pretty much immune to ALL psychic attacks other than that of the Dark Templar, anything else will INSTANTLY be healed. ((There's a quote on Fenix's StarCraft Wiki about that, how a completely destroyed Cerebrate on Aiur regenerated before his eyes)). Just thought I'd help with that part of the argument.

And you compare the Tyranid-Space Marine fight to the Zerg-Terran one. My arguement is that the Space Marines would be more comparable to the Protoss. A race whose Homeworld was overrun even AFTER the death of the Overmind. A race who, even with Terran Assistence, Almost lost the battle to kill said Overmind, winnin only because of Tassadar channeling Dark Templar energy and crashing the Gantrithor, a Super Carrier, into it. Not to mention that even THEN the Overmind regenerated.

[quote]Sure, Zerg may Pwn Terrans, but Terrans are weaker than SM's, though still comparable. And Terrans, even with out the Armour, use many things which SM's don't, for instance Hoverbikes, Cloaking, Mines, etc. And I think 3 Marines and a Firebat in a Bunker would be slightly stronger than a squad of Space Marines, and they still die pretty quick. A Firebat, incase you don't know, shoots two jets of flame, trumping the 1 used from a Flamer.
Protoss Zealot> than Space Marine.
6 Zerg Zerglings> Protoss Zealot.
Same with Dragoon. And Templar, depending on how he Psychic Storms. And a Dark Templar, if there's Detectors.

I'd like to clear up some misconceptions you appear to have here.

1) Astartes use Bikes. Lots of em. See: Jetbikes and Land Speeders
2) Astartes don't use cloaking because they are *shock troops*. Camouflage is useless for them, just as camouflage is largely useless for a Reaper.
3) Marines in a bunker versus Astartes? The bunker is swiftly demolished by a Devastator squad with a missile launcher. Next?
4) Firebats vs FLamers? Flamers are primarily for morale damage and purification of what is perceived as unclean. For the real damage, Astartes use Heavy Flamers.
5) Zealot > Astartes? Where are you getting this from? Sauce plz?
6) 6 Zerglings > a Zealot? That's what the gameplay mechanics say, but I wold say that the fluff goes completely otherwise.
7) Dragoons/Templars/etc: At this point, you're talking about specialists. And this is when the Astartes start bringing in Librarians, Techmarines, and Dreadnaughts. But that's another argument for another time.


Oh, and what if the Zerg used Swarm, filled it with Hydras, making them immune to Range but still able to shoot, and also Ultralisks?? Then the Nids need to charge into a cloud spitting Needle Spines at them, then get through the Ultras.

The Tyranids have Termagaunts, Genestealers, and all sorts of other monstrousities, all of which are capable of matching Ultralisks in melee combat. And because they have higher numbers, they win. Yes, they will lose many units, yes, it may be an overall loss in economy. But they win. The Imperial Guard is not the only faction to favour the "throw enough troops at it until it dies from sheer weight of numbers" strategy.


<Examples of powerful Zerg Units and Powers

Without going into specific details about how the Tyranids can counter each of these strategies, I will simply recant the words of an anonymous German General:

~Our Panzers can take 4 of the US Shermans, but there's always a 5th Sherman hiding somewhere over the next hill.~

In other words, it doesn't matter how powerful your individual units are. The combined might of your military and civilian production centers is ultimately the thing that wins the war, barring extreme circumstances. The Tyranids more than outswarm the Zerg. Therefore they win.


And for those people who argue Terrans are Weaker than Space Marines, could I ask you post what you would say Terrans are roughly equal to in 40K??

As others have said, probably Kasrkin. However, a Kasrkin probably has better training, better weapons, as well as genetic enhancements, so maybe not. Possibly highly trained Cadian Shock Troops.

[Lady Tialait]

Well, Nids are neato, and nearly Endless, but that is in their fluff, as is in the Zerg Fluff.

If you take it down to what the retrospective games show, the 'Nids are very nasty combatants, I should know...I use them. They often go with Swam tatics, but somtimes go with the 'Enerizer Bunny' Effect, the 'Nid that keeps going and going and going.

Zerg in their Game had one stragity that was Viable, swarm. Build, Swarm. do it cheap. Zerg are specialist in this feild, all their other stuff just helps them push the zerglings.


'Nids Vs. Zerg.

'Nids Win. the Zerg arn't going to be able to outswarm if they choose that path, and their swarms will not mean anything to the powerhouse funness...

then again..i havn't played in almost 4 years, so the rules may have changed, and such.

[Mr. Scaly]

I'm curious about something...since nobody knows or could possibly know the full extent of either the tyranid or zerg swarms how could anyone say that the tyranids outnumber the zerg? It's possible, sure, but there's no way to know.

Having read a little bit on Gargoyles (it sounds like they're the tyranid's primary air force on-planet?) I think they'd get defeated by zerg air force. Scourge are about zergling size and not very tough but they're very fast, maneuvrable and numerous, and pack a big punch. Gargoyles only have short range so the damage they could do from a distance is limited before the scourge make their kamikaze attacks. Mutalisks and Devourers would help certainly...the first damages multiple creatures with a single armour eating attack, and the second damages, slows and weakens air units all at once.

Biotitans and other huge creatures definitely look like a problem though...maybe Scourge, infested terrans (if they're allowed) and Queens could bring them down?

[Mr. Scaly]

Well, Nids are neato, and nearly Endless, but that is in their fluff, as is in the Zerg Fluff.

If you take it down to what the retrospective games show, the 'Nids are very nasty combatants, I should know...I use them. They often go with Swam tatics, but somtimes go with the 'Enerizer Bunny' Effect, the 'Nid that keeps going and going and going.

Zerg in their Game had one stragity that was Viable, swarm. Build, Swarm. do it cheap. Zerg are specialist in this feild, all their other stuff just helps them push the zerglings.


'Nids Vs. Zerg.

'Nids Win. the Zerg arn't going to be able to outswarm if they choose that path, and their swarms will not mean anything to the powerhouse funness...

then again..i havn't played in almost 4 years, so the rules may have changed, and such.

Actually, there are plenty of tactics available to zerg than swarm. That's just the flavour of their race since they're cheaper than all the others.

[WNxHasoroth]

Tyranids outnumber Zerg because their numbers are causing a human empire with over a million planets under its yoke to think about total militarization. May I add that this is just a vanguard as the Nids have polished off another galaxy already?

How big is the SC universe? A few sectors?

[Mr. Scaly]

Tyranids outnumber Zerg because their numbers are causing a human empire with over a million planets under its yoke to think about total militarization. May I add that this is just a vanguard as the Nids have polished off another galaxy already?

How big is the SC universe? A few sectors?

Under the Overmind the zerg didn't care about conquest or eating anything that moved. All they really cared about was absorbing protoss psionic talents and perfecting themselves. They didn't need to move in a force that large to do that. If they planned on invading something like the Imperium, of course they'd bring up reinforcements.

As for the numbers of Kerrigan's hordes, who knows what kind of numbers she's got? Enough to easily overwhelm every other power in the sector apparently.

[GoC]

Protoss Zealot> than Space Marine.

Try Space Marine>10xProtoss Zealot

[WNxHasoroth]

One would think you would field your full numbers when engaged in a protracted war against a race of psionic warriors, created by the same god-scientists as yourself. One would also think that leaving planets and outposts of said warrior race (with psionics) behind you while you rampage towards the prize is also a bad idea.

As for Kerrigan's hordes. All I'm saying is that say, there are 100 planets in the Star Craft universe. If you added all the planets together, and divided their mass by the mass of a zergling, and took that number, it'd still be smaller than the 'Nids. Because you know, they have the bio mass of how many thousands of stars from another galaxy to help them?

Starcraft fluff describes a Zerg attack as numbering in the thousands. 40k fluff describes it in the millions. Big, big difference.

*cough*

[Lady Tialait]

Tyranids outnumber Zerg because their numbers are causing a human empire with over a million planets under its yoke to think about total militarization. May I add that this is just a vanguard as the Nids have polished off another galaxy already?

How big is the SC universe? A few sectors?

The Impire already wanted to go full on Militarization, I mean, with Chaos waves, Orks, Necros, Elves-in-Space, Add Nids...yeah, they want to go full out and stop this bull...


As for Zerg, they are infact alot more peaceful then nids.
The 'nids want to take over the universe, by eating it.
The Zerg just wanna be perfect, when the time comes they need alot of their kind, they mulitply faster then nids can.

[WNxHasoroth]

The Impire already wanted to go full on Militarization, I mean, with Chaos waves, Orks, Necros, Elves-in-Space, Add Nids...yeah, they want to go full out and stop this bull...


As for Zerg, they are infact alot more peaceful then nids.
The 'nids want to take over the universe, by eating it.
The Zerg just wanna be perfect, when the time comes they need alot of their kind, they mulitply faster then nids can.

Perhaps a better explanation.

Full militarization.

That would mean every ab-human slave, pleasure girl, High Lord of Terra, Arbites, gangers, mentally challenged people, prisoners, the folks on the farm, would be given a lasgun, a helmet, and a finger pointing out the enemy.

Full, 100% militarization. The Imperiums always faced its enemies with its armies, while the aristocrats, bureaucrats etc lounge on chairs eating truffles as Joe Guardsman dies. The Nids are saying every, single, person has to fight. Has to physically go out and die in a trench.

Kinda depressing.

[LordVader]

Back to comparisons, I just dug out my Tyranid Codex and double checked the point cost. My figures were off. Minerals/Vespene to Points conversion needs to be more of a 5 to 1 conversion factor.



The Scourge are an answer to capital ships, which is something that Tyranid completely lack. Quickly produced, high power, and cheap. 6 Scourge can take out a protoss carrier at full power, so it should have a similar impact on Hive Ships. Even if you had to launch four times that many to take down a single hive ship, the carnage Scourge would cause amoung the Tyranid is insane.


Nononono. You do NOT, I repeat NOT, use in-game statistics as a factor for comparison. Under any circumstances. Ever. If you do, you're saying that, given time, a Terran Marine can take out a Battlecruiser. Can it?

The Scourge will not be nearly as effective against a full-blown fleet. Tyranids have their own fighters and ordnance which will intercept and destroy Scourge. Scourge also do not possess the ability to annihilate a miles-long capital ship in 6 hits. That's taking game statistsics, and that does not work.

Also, Mr. Scaly, "every other power" isn't that impressive. The Terrans are small and backwards, and the Protoss were blinded by their leaders' arrogance and unable to wield their full might against the Zerg.

On the subject of relative powers: The Tyranids have far more impressive units than the Zerg. Hierodules and Hierophants dwarf the majority of Zerg combat organisms, Trygons put Lurkers to shame, Tyranid Hiveships would make Guardians and Devourers crap their pants, etc, etc.

[Mr. Scaly]

Also, Mr. Scaly, "every other power" isn't that impressive. The Terrans are small and backwards, and the Protoss were blinded by their leaders' arrogance and unable to wield their full might against the Zerg.

On the subject of relative powers: The Tyranids have far more impressive units than the Zerg. Hierodules and Hierophants dwarf the majority of Zerg combat organisms, Trygons put Lurkers to shame, Tyranid Hiveships would make Guardians and Devourers crap their pants, etc, etc.

Plus every other species they defeated on the way to K sector and not to mention the Xel'Naga themselves, but yeah that's a good point. Whoever said first that the zerg are like young tyranids was right, I've come to think. I think that they've got a chance though. If it's each swarm in its entirety yeah, the tyranids are going to win through sheer numbers alone.

The titans are a serious problem for the zerg, yes... They've got the tools though. Scourge, Guardians, Defilers, infested terrans (again, assuming they're present) all specialise in doing lots of damage to heavily armoured units. I'm guessing that it takes a lot of biomatter to produce Hierophants et all so there can't be too many of them.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The titans are a serious problem for the zerg, yes... They've got the tools though. Scourge, Guardians, Defilers, infested terrans (again, assuming they're present) all specialise in doing lots of damage to heavily armoured units. I'm guessing that it takes a lot of biomatter to produce Hierophants et all so there can't be too many of them.

Thats were your wrong though. No matter how many planets are being invaded at them, there is almost always bio-titans present at them. Saying there aren't many when compared to the rest of the 'nids isn't really saying much.

As for heavily armored, a carnifex is heavily armored. It can take successive bolter and melee damage and still manage to keep on fighting. A heirophant will ignore anything smaller then a leg as not even a danger. Or if it makes itself a danger engulf the surrounding area thats producing it harm with bio-plasma until that area no longer hurts it. This is ignoring that Scourge and infested terrans are mostly one-shot wonders and will die off after their one explosion.

But I agree with the general consensus. Protoss zealots are not better then space marines. At all. And I don't like saying that because I like the 'toss, but a zealot would be decimated by a marine.

As for 'Full militarization' even as it was described above it would be off. The Imperium would need to increase it's forces by 500% and even then they don't think they'll make it. They might not even have enough people to GET 500% increase considering average Joe-Smoe off the street will probably flee in terror in the first charge by 'gaunts or never even get their first shot off.

The zerg are essentially a...younger form of 'nids. Eventually they could pose the same kind of threat the 'nids do but right now their not even close.

[Talkkno]

Try Space Marine>10xProtoss Zealot

I'd argue that a Zealot could beat a Space Marine in close combat situation though.

[Mr. Scaly]

Thats were your wrong though. No matter how many planets are being invaded at them, there is almost always bio-titans present at them. Saying there aren't many when compared to the rest of the 'nids isn't really saying much.

As for heavily armored, a carnifex is heavily armored. It can take successive bolter and melee damage and still manage to keep on fighting. A heirophant will ignore anything smaller then a leg as not even a danger. Or if it makes itself a danger engulf the surrounding area thats producing it harm with bio-plasma until that area no longer hurts it. This is ignoring that Scourge and infested terrans are mostly one-shot wonders and will die off after their one explosion.

The zerg are essentially a...younger form of 'nids. Eventually they could pose the same kind of threat the 'nids do but right now their not even close.

By now, I'm agreeing with that. My point above was that the zerg can kill bio titans, but that more will show up than they can deal with. Too bad. Apparently there can be only one in the world of galactic monstrosities.

Give it a few years...decades...centuries.

[GoC]

I'd argue that a Zealot could beat a Space Marine in close combat situation though.

That's more probable but Space Marines are superhumanly strong and stuff so wouldn't they be able to rip a protoss in half if they get a good grip?
Space Marines aren't normal soldiers they're heros.

[Talkkno]

That's more probable but Space Marines are superhumanly strong and stuff so wouldn't they be able to rip a protoss in half if they get a good grip?
Space Marines aren't normal soldiers they're heros.

So is a zealot, as its armor isn't just a for show, its power armor too, and a zealot also a precognition and far more agile then a Space Marine in its bulky armor. And i would not bet space marine's armor too much if they get killed by people with swords and arrows, while it noted that a inferior Terran shielding technology for ghosts could survive up to nuke for a limited amount of time.

[Eita]

I'd argue that a Zealot could beat a Space Marine in close combat situation though.

Hello Mr. Zealot! Meet my power sword! Oh, and how about my men's Chain-fists? (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/sm-terminator-squad.gif)

And yes, I know those are Terminators. I found that image first.

Oh, and Zealot armor is very unconventional. Why? It doesn't cover most of their bodies.

Also, Tyranid Bio-Titan:

http://homepage.mac.com/james.clay/iblog/B233824576/C1679725847/E20060120095358/Media/IMG_1854.jpg

Those trees you see, those are regular sized trees. I think that's a hover-tank down there for comparison.

[LordVader]

I'd argue that a Zealot could beat a Space Marine in close combat situation though.

Won't help him when he's vaporised 100 meters from the Space Marine by bolter or heavy weapons fire. :smallbiggrin: As soon as that shield goes down, the Marine blows off a leg and he's done for. Close combat only troops are very inefficient.


Mr. Scaly, everything you're citing as a way for Zerg to take down Bio-titans has a counter. Guardians are large, frail targets and the Tyranids will quickly make themselves immune to Zerg bio-acids.
Once the Zerg use their Guardian's bio-acid attack, and the Tyranids assimilate it, the Norn Queen will start producing organisms that are immune to that acid. Problem solved.

Scourges, again, not effective against ground troops for reasons I've cited. Infested Terrans won't even get close, Bio-Titans will be surrounded by a living carpet of Gaunts. Defilers can't do jack either, Plague MAY work once but will fail as soon as the Tyranids assimilate it, which takes little time.

Oh, and the Bio-Titan has a psychic shield. :smallwink:

[Oslecamo]

So is a zealot, as its armor isn't just a for show, its power armor too, and a zealot also a precognition and far more agile then a Space Marine in its bulky armor. And i would not bet space marine's armor too much if they get killed by people with swords and arrows, while it noted that a inferior Terran shielding technology for ghosts could survive up to nuke for a limited amount of time.

BUlky? Power armor bulky???????

It's the result of 40000 years of human armor evolution! It has micromotors installed all around it that actually make the user stronger and faster! It automatically deliver medicinal drugs to the user when it is hurt!

It would be more of a fair fight. Except that protoss zealot ranged capacity is zero, something I never understood. If you have all that amazing technology, why the hell your most numerous troops are still using melee weapons?

Unlike the eldar, the protoss zealots are tough stuff. They can destroy tanks with their blades, but then, so does a space marine. Like the space marines, the zealots are, in game, expensive and fight in small groups.

Anyway, the Tyrannids have one serious disadvantage over the zerg:they're stupid as hell. The Emperium of men managed to change the direction of an entire Tyrannid fleet just by evacuating the planets in it's way and "helping" the tyrannids find the orks.

The zerg, on the other hand, managed to find the well hidden home city of the protoss, get hold of the mighty relics there to power them up and almost become the most powerfull beings in the whole starcraft universe.

If the zergs fight the Tyrannids, the zergs would just hide from all those massive fleets, find the hivemind, find it's weakness, find some kind of anti tyrannid relic out there and kill the hivemind, taking control of the Tyrannid army.

Hmm, maybe that's what actually hapened.

[LordVader]

If Space Marines are wearing a helmet, they DO NOT die to people with swords and arrows. Either the scene was described wrong, or the writer was high at the time of its creation.

But yeah, power armor is not bulky. It is a natural extension of the user's body, he feels no different with it on then with it off. Unlike a Zealot. :smallwink:

And you cannot "find" the Hive Mind. It does not have physical form. Plus, if it did, it'd be sitting in the middle of a galaxy full of Tyranids- do you really want to go in there and get it? :smallbiggrin:

There is no such thing as an anti-Tyranid relic in 40k, it just doesn't work like that. You can kill Norn Queens, but there is no "win button" to press that wipes out the Tyranid race.

[GoC]

And i would not bet space marine's armor too much if they get killed by people with swords and arrows,

That's an example of writer inconsistancy. It also survives anti-tank guns.

[Zenos]

That's an example of writer inconsistancy. It also survives anti-tank guns.

Of course, msot arrows the marines will face will be power arrows or something that slices through tanks with ease...

[Oslecamo]

Of course, msot arrows the marines will face will be power arrows or something that slices through tanks with ease...

It's the warhammer 40k universe. For some reason swords and axes are a weapon choice as valid as laser cannons and machine guns.

[puppyavenger]

There is no such thing as an anti-Tyranid relic in 40k, it just doesn't work like that. You can kill Norn Queens, but there is no "win button" to press that wipes out the Tyranid race.

Once again Killing Norm Queens does not disorganise the fleet! The ships control the Norm Queens and if a Norm Queen dies even more Norm Queens are born.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Anyway, the Tyrannids have one serious disadvantage over the zerg:they're stupid as hell. The Emperium of men managed to change the direction of an entire Tyrannid fleet just by evacuating the planets in it's way and "helping" the tyrannids find the orks.

The zerg, on the other hand, managed to find the well hidden home city of the protoss, get hold of the mighty relics there to power them up and almost become the most powerfull beings in the whole starcraft universe.

If the zergs fight the Tyrannids, the zergs would just hide from all those massive fleets, find the hivemind, find it's weakness, find some kind of anti tyrannid relic out there and kill the hivemind, taking control of the Tyrannid army.

Hmm, maybe that's what actually hapened.

...You are drastically off the point about Tyranid intelligence. Aside from the fact they possess no way to look through the void to find inhabited planets (Much like the zerg), though the Hive Mind may be able to detect the feeling of psykers and thats how it knows what direction to send out it's feelers, the Tyranid use gene-stealers to act as homing beacons for the main fleet. They emit pheromones that draws the main fleet to a sizable mass of...well...bio-mass.

The Imperium spent a good deal of effort to capture some gene-stealers and send them off into Ork space. Look at it from the Tyranid point of view. If the planets your coming across are holding less bio-mass then previous targets and you know that gene-stealers have found more bio-mass rich planets, are you going to keep going along the same poor pickings or are you going to go for the nice tasty planets filled with creatures AND regular planetary bio-mass?

Remember...it's not like the Tyranid hold a grudge or something against the Imperium, they'll attack anything that has bio-mass on it or close to it. They aren't committed to JUST the destruction of the Imperium. Being diverted into Ork space was also blessing since the Tyranids found a whole new genetic soup to gobble up. They still sound stupid to you?



Also, as mentioned above, there IS no 'anti-tyranid relic'. Theres absolutely no reason to be. Nobody thought biological monsters would invade from another galaxy. The Hive Mind also has no locations, and even if it did have some sort of physical body, you'd be damn sure it'd be harder to kill then some Cerebrate or Overmind. Hell it'd be harder to even GET to. Besides...the Zerg can only run or hide for so long before a genestealer or lictor finds one of their planets and then...well then horrible things happen. Something else to remember...theres only three major races in the Starcraft universe. That is nowhere NEAR enough numbers to get any accurate judge of strength when compared to other races. Especially since Tyranids are considered a major threat by...well practically every WH40K race they've contacted. All of them.

[puppyavenger]

...You are drastically off the point about Tyranid intelligence. Aside from the fact they possess no way to look through the void to find inhabited planets (Much like the zerg), though the Hive Mind may be able to detect the feeling of psykers and thats how it knows what direction to send out it's feelers, the Tyranid use gene-stealers to act as homing beacons for the main fleet. They emit pheromones that draws the main fleet to a sizable mass of...well...bio-mass.

The Imperium spent a good deal of effort to capture some gene-stealers and send them off into Ork space. Look at it from the Tyranid point of view. If the planets your coming across are holding less bio-mass then previous targets and you know that gene-stealers have found more bio-mass rich planets, are you going to keep going along the same poor pickings or are you going to go for the nice tasty planets filled with creatures AND regular planetary bio-mass?

Remember...it's not like the Tyranid hold a grudge or something against the Imperium, they'll attack anything that has bio-mass on it or close to it. They aren't committed to JUST the destruction of the Imperium. Being diverted into Ork space was also blessing since the Tyranids found a whole new genetic soup to gobble up. They still sound stupid to you?



Also, as mentioned above, there IS no 'anti-tyranid relic'. Theres absolutely no reason to be. Nobody thought biological monsters would invade from another galaxy. The Hive Mind also has no locations, and even if it did have some sort of physical body, you'd be damn sure it'd be harder to kill then some Cerebrate or Overmind. Hell it'd be harder to even GET to. Besides...the Zerg can only run or hide for so long before a genestealer or lictor finds one of their planets and then...well then horrible things happen. Something else to remember...theres only three major races in the Starcraft universe. That is nowhere NEAR enough numbers to get any accurate judge of strength when compared to other races. Especially since Tyranids are considered a major threat by...well practically every WH40K race they've contacted. All of them.

and so far only the vaunguard is in the Galaxy.

[Storm Bringer]

Mr. Scaly, everything you're citing as a way for Zerg to take down Bio-titans has a counter. Guardians are large, frail targets and the Tyranids will quickly make themselves immune to Zerg bio-acids.
Once the Zerg use their Guardian's bio-acid attack, and the Tyranids assimilate it, the Norn Queen will start producing organisms that are immune to that acid. Problem solved.

Alas, no, the nids are not capable of acid immunity. That's why Hellfire rounds work so well on them. They are immune to pretty much any form of virus or infection, up to and possibly including Nurgles Rot (the favorite pathogen of the Chaos God of disease)

As to SMurf vs Protoss, I'd say the SMurf any day. That sheild does fail if hit hard or often enough, and the Marines bolter (which is, lest we forget, a .75 cal rocket launcher with an automatic fire mode) can dish out that sort of punishment. Oh, and the Smurf is punch though concrete walls strong, can move blindingly fast, and is able to surive any non-instant kill wound without major loss of combat effectiveness. So, protoss shoves sword into power armoured gut, marine reaches over and crushes protoss head with his hand.

anyway, back to the actual topic:

Thier is no brain in a jar labeld "hive mind". That's why it's called a hive mind. It is litteraly the combined intelligence of every synapse creature in in the hive fleet, or, depending on your fluff, the universe. The only way to kill it is to kil the synapse creatures. every. single. one.

Nor is thier any artifact that can wipe out whole races or allow takeovers in the 40K universe. The closest 40k can offer are the necrons, and good luck trying to control them.

The only way to kill the nids is with guns, swords and exlposives.

As to why they outnumber the zerg, it's because the Nids have already conquored another galaxy and all the biomass in it, At Least. we know that they came form another galaxy, and, after eating everything in that, set off to the next galaxy. What we don't know is if we are that next galaxy, or the 152nd galaxy they've taken on. Hence all the comments about the zerg being like young nids.


I have no doubt that the Zerg, with careful tactics and the right troops, could take down a bio-titan. what i doubt is that they could do so cost effectively. Also, consider that bio-titans (and the other large tyranid creatures, which get less press but are no less deadly) are not deployed alone, but as the vanguard shock troops of a Nid attack, and so are backed up by everything form gaunts to carnifexes.

Hell, it's not beyound the hive mind to deploy a bio-titan purely to draw fire away form the other assault elements. Dispite the continual flack the Hive mind is reciveing here, it is perfectly capable of complex tactical manuvers, feints and flanks, indeed it's superior command and control makes it better suited to these tricks. It can and does execute stratgies that fool even space marine captains with hundreds of years of warfare.

[LordVader]

'Nids aren't immune to acid? Damn, I was sure they'd be...seems odd.

I also recall the Ultramarines novel where they take out a splinter fleet by destroying the Norn Queen, or some uber-googly creature, my apologies if that was wrong.

[Callos_DeTerran]

'Nids aren't immune to acid? Damn, I was sure they'd be...seems odd.

I also recall the Ultramarines novel where they take out a splinter fleet by destroying the Norn Queen, or some uber-googly creature, my apologies if that was wrong.

Nah. Their immune to their OWN acid but I don't think theres any evidence of them being immune to other's acid.

And, bear in mind I haven't read Ultramarine, it would depend on the splinter fleet in question's composition to see if destroying the Norn Queen (Which is most likely what it was) really took it out. It IS known that when a Norn Queen dies the Hydra effect begins and all other Leviathan Hive Ships in a certain range begin spawning new ones to pick up the slack. If there wasn't another Leviathan close by then the lose of the Norn Queen would throw the non-synapse into dissarray, but the synapse would be...well...they have their own connection, they don't really need the Norn Queen.

[Mr. Scaly]

Wait, so if any run of the mill Tyranid gets blasted by an explosive ball of biological attack the rest suddenly become immune to it? I don't know...from what I've read that shouldn't happen unless they get a chance to process and absorb that kind of DNA in Spore Chimneys and Digestion pools...

[Mr. Scaly]

Wait, so if any run of the mill Tyranid gets blasted by an explosive ball of biological attack the rest suddenly become immune to it? I don't know...from what I've read that shouldn't happen unless they get a chance to process and absorb that kind of DNA in Spore Chimneys and Digestion pools...

[Storm Bringer]

'Nids aren't immune to acid? Damn, I was sure they'd be...seems odd.

I also recall the Ultramarines novel where they take out a splinter fleet by destroying the Norn Queen, or some uber-googly creature, my apologies if that was wrong.

nah, it's the virus bombs thier immune to. acid is acid, thier ain't much you can do about it.

the other part really depends on the time the novel was written. By the current fluff (current nids 'dex et al), the Nid synapse creatures are directly connected to the Hive mind, so killing a 'higher' one will not disconnect them. However, in some fluff, thier is a chain of command form higher to lower synapses, with the lowest rankers being booster relays for the higher rankers, so killing the higher ranked synapses would 'cut' the hive mind link to the lower ranks and revert them to instinctive behaviour.

It's common enough on a small sacle, where they may only be one synapse creature in the fight (for example, a squad of marines vs a swarm of guants led by a warrior), but on a mass battlefeild, I don't think it'd work.

Having wiki'd the norn queen, I found this is all they have to say on them:


Norn Queens, as described in the novel Warriors of Ultramar, fill the role of the "queen" of the hive, similar to that of a queen ant. They have no models or rules in the game, and as far as it is known, they are bound to the hive ship and cannot leave it. They control the making of new Tyranids and psychically communicate with the other Tyranids. A Norn queen is always the most protected part of the ship, so humans have little data on them.

Codex Tyranids states that when a Norn Queen is killed, the psychic signal of its death causes hive ships to calve, creating more Norn Queens. This is known as the Hydra effect

now, form that discription, it's not clear how much 'control' the Queen has over the swarm. It may well be the highest control node in the fleet, but it may well not be as well.

[Talkkno]

As to SMurf vs Protoss, I'd say the SMurf any day. That sheild does fail if hit hard or often enough, and the Marines bolter (which is, lest we forget, a .75 cal rocket launcher with an automatic fire mode) can dish out that sort of punishment. Oh, and the Smurf is punch though concrete walls strong, can move blindingly fast, and is able to surive any non-instant kill wound without major loss of combat effectiveness. So, protoss shoves sword into power armoured gut, marine reaches over and crushes protoss head with his hand.


Precongition gives a zealot a major edge, and keep in mind, we see zealots wielding ranged weapons in Starcraft:Ghost trailers. At a high end, Obi-wan manged to deflect Grevious 40 attacks per second despite the shroud that the Emperor was generating that made his abilities much weaker.

[Warshrike]

*Snip*

And you cannot "find" the Hive Mind. It does not have physical form. Plus, if it did, it'd be sitting in the middle of a galaxy full of Tyranids- do you really want to go in there and get it? :smallbiggrin:

*snip*

So, When do we leave??

[Destro_Yersul]

Precongition gives a zealot a major edge, and keep in mind, we see zealots wielding ranged weapons in Starcraft:Ghost trailers. At a high end, Obi-wan manged to deflect Grevious 40 attacks per second despite the shroud that the Emperor was generating that made his abilities much weaker.

Ah yes, the zealot precognition argument. Said Precognition is limited. A marine would still tear a zealot to tiny bits, because precognition or no, you cannot dodge a nine foot tall guy with really good reflexes and super enhanced strength when he tears your head off with his bare hands.

The reflexes are the key here. Zealot attacks, marine whips around, grabs his head, and snaps his neck.

[GoC]

nah, it's the virus bombs thier immune to. acid is acid, thier ain't much you can do about it.

The zerg made themselves immune to it so why can't the tyranids?

[Talkkno]

The reflexes are the key here. Zealot attacks, marine whips around, grabs his head, and snaps his neck.

Do you have any evidence that Zealot's reflexes are slow compared to a Space Marine's?
"Using a limited form of precognition, zealots can even predict enemy movements, striking with deadly accuracy and dodging attacks by inches."
-Starcraft 2 website
Precognition also allows Jedi to deflect bullets, so I'm going to say, even if they are slower, which i doubt precognition more then makes up for it.

[Talkkno]

That's an example of writer inconsistancy. It also survives anti-tank guns.

Well, we have to find a rationalization somehow, or else Space Marine's armor strength is going to up in the air.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Precongition gives a zealot a major edge, and keep in mind, we see zealots wielding ranged weapons in Starcraft:Ghost trailers. At a high end, Obi-wan manged to deflect Grevious 40 attacks per second despite the shroud that the Emperor was generating that made his abilities much weaker.

It should be noted that the shroud the Emperor was generating didn't affect things like that. Obi-wan wasn't weakened at all when fighting Grievious. As for precognition for Zealots against Marines...it's still not a good idea for them. Really...knowing what your enemy is going to do is all well and good.....IF you can stop it.

[Destro_Yersul]

Do you have any evidence that Zealot's reflexes are slow compared to a Space Marine's?
"Using a limited form of precognition, zealots can even predict enemy movements, striking with deadly accuracy and dodging attacks by inches."
-Starcraft 2 website
Precognition also allows Jedi to deflect bullets, so I'm going to say, even if they are slower, which i doubt precognition more then makes up for it.

I'd like to see reflexes manage to halt a zealot's forward momentum in time for him to avoid a Marines fist.

[Talkkno]

I'd like to see reflexes manage to halt a zealot's forward momentum in time for him to avoid a Marines fist.

But ain't he going to see it happening before the said Marine launches the fist in the first place?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Yea but the point is knowing its going to happen isn't going to help you when you can't stop fast enough to avoid having your head punched off your shoulders by genetically engineered giant supersoldier :smalltongue:

[Mr. Scaly]

Yea but the point is knowing its going to happen isn't going to help you when you can't stop fast enough to avoid having your head punched off your shoulders by genetically engineered giant supersoldier :smalltongue:

That's where personal shielding helps. ^^ How strong are these Space marines anyway? Strong enough to lift an ox?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

An ox, a truck, A TANK, you know, some stuff.

[Destro_Yersul]

And that's the ones without powerfists. Powerfists are, arguably, slower, but they're also much harder to stop.

[LordVader]

Well, we have to find a rationalization somehow, or else Space Marine's armor strength is going to up in the air.

The general baseline throughout all novels seems to be that it is capable of resisting bolter rounds, which are ~.75 caliber high-explosive shells, essentially mini-rockets.
So it's pretty tough any way you look at it.

Also, for precognition: the answer is simple.
Use your bolter to burn down the shields, and then toast him with a flamer or grenades when he gets in close. Done. :smallbiggrin:

I'd say Space Marines could lift an ox, easy. Maybe an ox in each hand...hmm. And this is without their power armor, mind you. :smallwink:

[Warshrike]

Oh my, I seem to have changed the subject((hehe, go me!!))

Merry GTFOmas!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3819197#post3819197)

[Mr. Scaly]

Wow...how on Earth is the Imperium losing to the Tyranids if each soldier could rip off one's head with his bare hands? Sheer numbers?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

That and the fact that average Tyranid troops (like hormogaunts) have massive sycthing talons that can cut humans in half, and their shock troops (Gene-stealers) have diamond sharp claws strong enough to rip open terminator armor like a can of soup (and terminator armor makes someone like 5-10x stronger than regular SM armor, and is alot tougher too, hell a titan stepped on one and it stood up and walked away from it) not to mention their bigger and scarier stuff.

[Talkkno]

Also, for precognition: the answer is simple.
Use your bolter to burn down the shields, and then toast him with a flamer or grenades when he gets in close. Done. :smallbiggrin:


Couldn't a zealot use that nifty turn into energy rush thing they get in SC2 to get past said bolter rounds however and close in with almost fully intact shielding?

[Destro_Yersul]

^: At which point he runs face first into the marine's fist. Which is bad for him.

That and the fact that Space Marines are the best of the best. There are, roughly, 1000 chapters of 1000 marines each. Which sounds like a lot, until you consider the Imperium numbers in the billions and they have to defend an entire galaxy. Normally they just send in the Imperial Guard.

[Talkkno]

hell a titan stepped on one and it stood up and walked away from it) not to mention their bigger and scarier stuff.

Wait, if you guys can dismiss my Space Marine armor can be breached by regular
humans with swords and arrows, I'm not sure we can admit that as plausible evidence. I think sticking with it capable of resisting bolter rounds is a good estimate.

[Talkkno]

^: At which point he runs face first into the marine's fist. Which is bad for him.



How is the Marine going to react to something moving at speed of light if we take the "energy" thing literally, as real energy moves that fast, and if we go with that, i guess that zealots just can only go into that mode for a briefest of moments.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

How is the Marine going to react to something moving at speed of light if we take the "energy" thing literally, as real energy moves that fast, and if we go with that, i guess that zealots just can only go into that mode for a briefest of moments.

well I'm guessing he would get hit after he stopped being energy, which would probably break his face... and his neck... and his head off of his body :smalltongue:


Wait, if you guys can dismiss my Space Marine armor can be breached by regular
humans with swords and arrows, I'm not sure we can admit that as plausible evidence. I think sticking with it capable of resisting bolter rounds is a good estimate.

Why not? its actual canon, plus this is terminator armor, which is a couple magnitudes tougher than even space marine armor. plus regular swords (and I don't know about arrows) CAN pierce space marine armor, you just have to be incredibly strong and powerful enough to break the armor (Orks can cut into if not through SM armor with their Choppa's which are basically just really big axes, though some are monomilecular blades)

[Talkkno]

well I'm guessing he would get hit after he stopped being energy, which would probably break his face... and his neck... and his head off of his body :smalltongue:
But he still has his shielding remember?




Why not? its actual canon, plus this is terminator armor, which is a couple magnitudes tougher than even space marine armor. plus regular swords (and I don't know about arrows) CAN pierce space marine armor, you just have to be incredibly strong and powerful enough to break the armor (Orks can cut into if not through SM armor with their Choppa's which are basically just really big axes, though some are monomilecular blades)

But in the book, Grey Knights, it specifically mentioned that they were just bog standard humans, no chaos enhancements or anything, granted there was were so many of them that the Grey Knights had use a group psyker ablity to wipe them all out, which left them all exhausted. Still, if some Dark Age knights managed to break it open and kill the man inside....

[Lord_Asmodeus]

For the shielding it won't save him from atleast getting really banged up, unless it can stop a force which could easily take off another mans head, if not an orks (orks are notoriously tough, they can fly through walls and barely notice)

As for the armor thing, that seems highly unlikely, especially in the case of Gray Knights, I mean Gray Knights are supposed to be tougher than regular space marines with better armor, they are a group that is made to fight Daemons, usually high ranking ones. If they can stand up to a Bloodthirster, there's no way in hell a normal human can crack its armor with just a sword unless he was larger than normal and had ALOT of adrenaline pumping through his veins.

[Talkkno]

For the shielding it won't save him from atleast getting really banged up, unless it can stop a force which could easily take off another mans head, if not an orks (orks are notoriously tough, they can fly through walls and barely notice)

As for the armor thing, that seems highly unlikely, especially in the case of Gray Knights, I mean Gray Knights are supposed to be tougher than regular space marines with better armor, they are a group that is made to fight Daemons, usually high ranking ones. If they can stand up to a Bloodthirster, there's no way in hell a normal human can crack its armor with just a sword unless he was larger than normal and had ALOT of adrenaline pumping through his veins.[/QUOTE]

Can a single space Marine expected to take out a ship full at the very least in thousands of Imperial Guardsmen? As Kerrigan here expects a ghost can do, which is weaker then a zealot in both psionic and physical strength and speed.
CHAPTER 5 of Starcraft:Uprising
"Your side arm, General. Give it to me now. I just
watched you pull us away from the brink of destruction;
well, now it's my turn to save the day. None of your soldiers
have dealt with a Ghost before. He'll kill everyone
on this ship if you don't do as I say."
The general considered this for a moment, then nodded.
There was, as always, something in his thoughts
that she just could not read. He handed his weapon to
her. "I want you to activate the fire suppression systems
in all corridors on the upper deck." Sarah pointed to several
hallways just outside. "Shut down all lifts to the
lower levels. We need to keep him isolated. There isn't
much time. I assume you have a filtration mask somewhere
on the bridge?"
Chapter 7 of the same book
"He barely heard Sarah's feet hit the floor when his gun
flew from his grasp. She had recharged enough to cloak
once again, even if only temporarily. The major tried to
put his back to the wall but he was on the floor of the lift
before he could move. He felt an immense pain in his
head then, a swelling. It felt as if his brain was expanding,
pressing against the insides of his skull. He felt fire
racing through a vein in his forehead and along his
brow. The major began to scream.
Sarah did not stop her mental assault, even after
Major Rumm's eyes exploded from their sockets."

Once again, a ghost is not as strong a zealot in terms of psionic strength.
And the inferior expmental shielding of a ghost was noted by the narrator was able to surive up to any up to a nuke and at a very low end, it manged to keep the ghost from getting crushed under a collapsed multistory building for several hours. But I'll dig the qoutes for it.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Well for one thing training comes into account, Ghosts are supposedly highly trained and yes a Space Marine could kill a whole ship full of guardsmen alone, provided he can use stealth and isn't fighting them all at once.

[Talkkno]

Well for one thing training comes into account, Ghosts are supposedly highly trained and yes a Space Marine could kill a whole ship full of guardsmen alone, provided he can use stealth and isn't fighting them all at once.

Yes, Ghosts are highly trained, but it noted for your average green zealot on the Starcraft 2 website, has already has decades worth of training.

[Destro_Yersul]

Marines have a few decades worth of training each. If not killed in battle, they live to something like 400 years old.

[Eita]

Can a single space Marine expected to take out a ship full at the very least in thousands of Imperial Guardsmen? As Kerrigan here expects a ghost can do, which is weaker then a zealot in both psionic and physical strength and speed.
CHAPTER 5 of Starcraft:Uprising
"Your side arm, General. Give it to me now. I just
watched you pull us away from the brink of destruction;
well, now it's my turn to save the day. None of your soldiers
have dealt with a Ghost before. He'll kill everyone
on this ship if you don't do as I say."
The general considered this for a moment, then nodded.
There was, as always, something in his thoughts
that she just could not read. He handed his weapon to
her. "I want you to activate the fire suppression systems
in all corridors on the upper deck." Sarah pointed to several
hallways just outside. "Shut down all lifts to the
lower levels. We need to keep him isolated. There isn't
much time. I assume you have a filtration mask somewhere
on the bridge?"
Chapter 7 of the same book
"He barely heard Sarah's feet hit the floor when his gun
flew from his grasp. She had recharged enough to cloak
once again, even if only temporarily. The major tried to
put his back to the wall but he was on the floor of the lift
before he could move. He felt an immense pain in his
head then, a swelling. It felt as if his brain was expanding,
pressing against the insides of his skull. He felt fire
racing through a vein in his forehead and along his
brow. The major began to scream.
Sarah did not stop her mental assault, even after
Major Rumm's eyes exploded from their sockets."

Once again, a ghost is not as strong a zealot in terms of psionic strength.
And the inferior expmental shielding of a ghost was noted by the narrator was able to surive up to any up to a nuke and at a very low end, it manged to keep the ghost from getting crushed under a collapsed multistory building for several hours. But I'll dig the qoutes for it.

How canon is that? Besides, Ghosts are meant for stealth missions, Marines are shock troops. One is James Bond on steroids, the other is Rambo on steroids.

Oh, and are you sure that said sword wasn't a Power Sword?

Also, Destral, 400 is the average.

[Talkkno]

How canon is that? Besides, Ghosts are meant for stealth missions, Marines are shock troops. One is James Bond on steroids, the other is Rambo on steroids.
Dunno, I'm pretty sure Blizzard doesn't have a canon polcy like Star Wars has or anything, and it is a published book so take for what you will.


Oh, and are you sure that said sword wasn't a Power Sword?

Also, Destral, 400 is the average.

Yes, I'm sure it was a regular sword, supported by the fact the only Imperial presence there is a missionary, and it hasn't been visited by the Imperium for at least several hundred years and when the Grey Knights researched it, they noted the world had not even yet developed gunpowder and that the Missionary that was present didn't even know men such as Space Marines existed.

[Eita]

Did it glow or something? Was it considered sacred by the people? Was it wielded by an old, mysterious man?

[Talkkno]

Did it glow or something? Was it considered sacred by the people? Was it wielded by an old, mysterious man?

Well, I'm not sure if it was a sword or not, as they don't describe the Grey Knight's death. But here's bascilly the situation, after their Thunderhawk breaks down, they find themselves having to tredge threw a valley to get to the city where they have to resue someone. Along the way, they get ambushed by a ton of what abouts the European knights and men at arms, the marines slaugtering them easily, but they just keep coming. So in the confusion of battle they do somethign psyker power called the Holocoast, which wipes out all the enimies. In the aftermath they find one of the brouthers died during the battle, though they mange to recover his gene seed.

[Destro_Yersul]

Still, even if it's just the average 400 years leaves em with a fair bit of time for training. Which they do every day, right before purging the Emperors enemies and right after breakfast. Also after purging the Emperors enemies, before dinner, after dinner and during the aforementioned purging.

Suffice it to say, Space Marines train a LOT.

[Eita]

Well, I'm not sure if it was a sword or not, as they don't describe the Grey Knight's death. But here's bascilly the situation, after their Thunderhawk breaks down, they find themselves having to tredge threw a valley to get to the city where they have to resue someone. Along the way, they get ambushed by a ton of what abouts the European knights and men at arms, the marines slaugtering them easily, but they just keep coming. So in the confusion of battle they do somethign psyker power called the Holocoast, which wipes out all the enimies. In the aftermath they find one of the brouthers died during the battle, though they mange to recover his gene seed.

Describe the knights.

Destral, I know that. I'm just saying, Space Marines can be older or younger then that.

[Destro_Yersul]

Arright. Oh, and it's spelled Destro.

cheers!

[Zenos]

Describe the knights.

Destral, I know that. I'm just saying, Space Marines can be older or younger then that.

I guess the sword found a little place to be stuck in with some luck managed to take out the space marine. Also, sure it wasn't a spear or lance? Seems more likely to that a lance could have found a weak spot in the armour and with some momentum behind it managed to penetrate.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[WNxHasoroth]

I remember the Grey Knight Book.

Yeah basically, a feudal world thats been corrupted by Chaos tries to engage the Space Marines with what amounts to thousands of Medieval Knights, augmented and mutated by chaos along with attendant footmen rushing the Grey Knights. One dies.

[Eita]

Ah. So they were augmented by Chaos.

I call shenanigans on Talkkno.

[Storm Bringer]

Wow...how on Earth is the Imperium losing to the Tyranids if each soldier could rip off one's head with his bare hands? Sheer numbers?

sort of. the SMurfs are the elite force of the imperium, and their is only about a million of them out thier. most the imperiums armies are bog-standard humans in flak armour and holding the guard-issue flashlight commonly known as a lasgun.

as other people have pointed out, knowning what the other guy is going to do is only a help if you can react to it. we don't know how far ahead a protoss can see into the future. It may well be that all he sees is his impending death (since we KNOW they can be killed in CC) and be unable to react fast enough to stop it.

but, really, why are we talking about a SMurf vs protoss when the debate is about nid vs zerg?

[Oslecamo]

You know, I think the whole uber power armor is nothing more than imperial propaganda. It's good armor, but it's not the pwrnz that the government claims it to be.

After all, the SM are almost a legend in the WH40K universe. Most people have never seen one. The imperial guard does most of the fighting.

So the government makes some little lies to boost the moral, that the SM are all but invincible and can take on anyone and everyone.

And when the SM show up, they end up dying to low level weapons like everyone else. Power armor has weak points. It was made by humans, and it's thus prone to defects.

Oh, and ghosts are sissies compared to SM. They may have all those psychic powers, but once you start shooting at them they die just like any other terran marine.

[Mr. Scaly]

sort of. the SMurfs are the elite force of the imperium, and their is only about a million of them out thier. most the imperiums armies are bog-standard humans in flak armour and holding the guard-issue flashlight commonly known as a lasgun.

as other people have pointed out, knowning what the other guy is going to do is only a help if you can react to it. we don't know how far ahead a protoss can see into the future. It may well be that all he sees is his impending death (since we KNOW they can be killed in CC) and be unable to react fast enough to stop it.

but, really, why are we talking about a SMurf vs protoss when the debate is about nid vs zerg?

I think it's been pretty much decided that Tyranids would win, though since they're a younger version of the nids the zerg can equal them some day.

Only about a million Space marines with the rest all grunts, eh? Interesting...

As for that protoss vs SM, the zealot's psionic power is focussed particularly on enhancing their shielding and projecting the energy blades from their wrists, if that's any help. But they're perfectly capable of tearing into heavily armoured equipment and structures.

[Zenos]

You know, I think the whole uber power armor is nothing more than imperial propaganda. It's good armor, but it's not the pwrnz that the government claims it to be.

After all, the SM are almost a legend in the WH40K universe. Most people have never seen one. The imperial guard does most of the fighting.

So the government makes some little lies to boost the moral, that the SM are all but invincible and can take on anyone and everyone.

And when the SM show up, they end up dying to low level weapons like everyone else. Power armor has weak points. It was made by humans, and it's thus prone to defects.

Oh, and ghosts are sissies compared to SM. They may have all those psychic powers, but once you start shooting at them they die just like any other terran marine.

Chaos/Eldar/Tyranid/Tau prpaganda! Die traitor/heretic/alien! *Heavy Bolter sounds*

[Callos_DeTerran]

Chaos/Eldar/Tyranid/Tau prpaganda! Die traitor/heretic/alien! *Heavy Bolter sounds*

WE DO NOT USE PROPAGANDA. YOUR PLANET HAS BEEN DISCOVERED BY GENESTEALERS. GOOD DAY. *Shrieks and clattering of diamond-hard claws*

I don't know why, but I picture the Hive Mind as being very polite if it could talk to other people and not kill them in the process..


...But yeah, Mr. Scaly, the Marines are pretty uber but their still mortal. In the one GW story for a Tyranid invasion two SM ripped a Carnifex apart but before it died it still managed to behead both of them..at the same time...as it was dying.

SM are what the Imperium brings IN to fight the Tyranid while the IG is regulated to evacuating civilians and abandoning the world in question.

[Zenos]

WE DO NOT USE PROPAGANDA. YOUR PLANET HAS BEEN DISCOVERED BY GENESTEALERS. GOOD DAY. *Shrieks and clattering of diamond-hard claws*

I don't know why, but I picture the Hive Mind as being very polite if it could talk to other people and not kill them in the process..


...But yeah, Mr. Scaly, the Marines are pretty uber but their still mortal. In the one GW story for a Tyranid invasion two SM ripped a Carnifex apart but before it died it still managed to behead both of them..at the same time...as it was dying.

SM are what the Imperium brings IN to fight the Tyranid while the IG is regulated to evacuating civilians and abandoning the world in question.

And destroy orks. It's so miraculous what one single Commissar can do to an army of human mooks...

[warty goblin]

Still, even if it's just the average 400 years leaves em with a fair bit of time for training. Which they do every day, right before purging the Emperors enemies and right after breakfast. Also after purging the Emperors enemies, before dinner, after dinner and during the aforementioned purging.

Suffice it to say, Space Marines train a LOT.

Also SM only need like an hour or two of sleep a week or something along those lines, I can't remember the exact number, so unless they are fighting (aka, accelerated training) they can pretty much train 23/7. A Space Marine who's been fully Marine-ized for a decade or so is going to have a truly disgusting amount of combat preparedness, even if he's never fought, which is unlikely.

[Oslecamo]

SM are what the Imperium brings IN to fight the Tyranid while the IG is regulated to evacuating civilians and abandoning the world in question.

So the IG doesn't fight Tyrannids do they?

http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/imperialguard/artwork/images/art-10.jpg

I'm sorry, but the Emperium of men has more planets than it has space marines. The IG it's the one that does 95% of the fighting actually.

It's the IG, and not the SM who stand guard to the eye of terror, the main portal from wich the chaos forces strike. Cadia holds around 600 million IG troops that fight and die to hold the chaos forces whenever they come out pouring.

It was comissar Yarrick that single handedly leaded the guardsmen to stand against the biggest ork invasion mankind has ever seen. Twice actually. He lost an arm and an eye doing so, but he standed fast, whitout need of power armour or uber genetic enanchments.

Whenever the emperium launches an attack it's the IG who is sent first. The SM are only called if there's some really tough nut to crack and they're in a hurry.

It's the Imperial guard that does ALL the dirty work. It stands guard to all the planets. The space marines only guard a handull. If it wasn't for the IG, the emperium would simply have been overrun many millenia ago, because the SM are too few to be able to defend the emperium borders. Whitout all those planets to supply the SM whit weapons and technology they would be nothing. Long live the Imperial guard, the true defenders of mankind. The SM are strong, but they are simply too few, and can't be everywhere at the same time.

But the idea of Tyrannid making propaganda made me laugh. Do they hold up recruitment posts on their homeworlds?


(image of a big carnifex pointing at the reader)
"The hivemind needs you!"

[Callos_DeTerran]

But the idea of Tyrannid making propaganda made me laugh. Do they hold up recruitment posts on their homeworlds?


(image of a big carnifex pointing at the reader)
"The hivemind needs you!"

*Video of Eldar, orks, and SM killing 'helpless' gaunts, then a Hive Tyrant standing atop a pile of bodies made up of forces above* The few, the proud, the Hive Tyrants. Sign up today by calling 1-800-Tyr-anid

[Oslecamo]

"Video of SM terminators boarding a space hulk and killing the genestealers inside. Focus on the crippled weeping genestealers shot down whitout mercy"


Thousands of inocent genestealers are brutally murdered by humans on their homes every year. Suport the fight against the human menace by donating genes to your nearest genepool. Every bit helps.

[Storm Bringer]

the great thing about it is, you'd literally just borrow the Imperials own flag-waver vids and change the music from heroic to mornful. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

hell, thier is an transcript of a tau propaganda vid kicking about somewhere (it was in a white dwarf fluff piece, and I think it's on the GW site somewhere.)

[Eldan]

Hmm. This is some nice imperial propaganda (but only one picture of tyrranids)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSOJOiSWQWA&feature=related

[Oslecamo]

the great thing about it is, you'd literally just borrow the Imperials own flag-waver vids and change the music from heroic to mornful. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

hell, thier is an transcript of a tau propaganda vid kicking about somewhere (it was in a white dwarf fluff piece, and I think it's on the GW site somewhere.)

Here it is:

CLEANSE THE XENOS

+++ vidslug activated+++
+++Commentary/txt only. Encrypted+++
+++Input Authorisation+++
+++Authorisation Accepted+++
+++ The following record was made from illegal las-line transmissions in the Slide underhive sector of Monrovia hive, Jakart IV.+++
+++Tracking 0001-0008. No image, voiceover only.+++

“Hello friend, I know you’re probably taking a risk watching this if the Imperium’s anything like I remember it,”

+++Voiceover ident: Private 893478JH728. Slovaz, Jerakim. 18th Brimlock Dragoons regt. Listed MIA in the Damocles crusade.+++

“So I’ll be brief”

+++ Tracking 0008-0016. Panning shot moves across a landscape of rolling green hills and a cloudless blue sky, ending on an obviously alien-built compound comprising four geodesic buildings, a generator plant and a drilling derrick. Image evaluation indicates three concealed observation posts on the surrounding hilltops, no personnel are visible.+++

“I’ve been asked to tell you something about the Tau.”

+++ Notes: The outpost shown is somewhere with a g-type star, spectrographic analysis gives a 72.4% possibility that it is AZ 34.2 on the edge of the Damocles gulf. We know this is what the Tau call a second phase colony world, basically a mechanised mining and ore extraction facility with a Fire Warrior garrison and a handful of non-combatant engineers. We’ve seen this piece used in propaganda before, vibrant azure sky and lush green hills makes good copy apparently.+++

“This is probably about the most you’ve seen of the Tau.”

Tau Fire Warrior+++ Tracking 0017-0022. Rapid cut to skirmish line of twenty-four alien warriors with energy weapons firing downhill into a charging mob of Orks. Seventeen Orks are felled from 0017-0020. From 0021-0022 the surviving Orks turn and flee.+++

+++ Tracking 0023-0027. Rapid cut to night shot of three large armoured figures dropping from an aerial vehicle using jet packs. The darkness behind them is cut by fire-trails indicating massed missile salvoes. Underlighting is apparent from ground detonations. The vehicle is mostly out of shot but the hatch design identifies it as a Manta class missile destroyer.+++

+++ Tracking 0028-0038. Fade to night shot from ground-based position. Eight large armoured figures sweep overhead, pouring energy weapon fire and missiles into three ruined buildings mostly hidden by flames and explosions. Scattered las-fire is the only reply, sparking harmlessly off the armoured figures. As the figures land their fire intensifies markedly before stopping as six weaponless Imperial Guardsmen emerge from the ruins with their hands in the air.+++

+++ Note: Sure enough these are familiar shots; Fire Warriors pushing back a rushing horde of Orks with disciplined volleys of shots, followed by flame-lit images of Battlesuits swooping down by night and efficiently levelling a hapless platoon of Imperial Guard. I think their Water caste like this one because the Fire Warriors stop firing so smoothly when the last few men throw down their weapons.+++

“Lots of things that prove they’re dangerous, devious aliens that’ll torture, eat or enslave every human they meet.”

+++ Tracking 0038-0047. Cut to free captain trade vessel [registration unknown], docked to a Tau orbital structure, planet is not in shot.+++

“But Mankind’s been getting that line about aliens for a long time now, and any free captain will tell you it’s not always true.”

+++ Tracking 0047-0056 This is the gem, the shot fades to Private Slovaz, now in his late sixties but looking hale and well-fed, bronzed by the sun and with a nice friendly smile. He’s standing on one of those lush green hills which is now marked out into fields and with several crawlers harvesting grain in the background.+++

“I was a soldier for the Emperor and I went to war with the Tau almost forty years ago. I was lucky and lived, but when the crusade pulled back they couldn’t take everyone with them.”

+++ Note: This keys with records of the Damocles crusade. Several garrisons could not be withdrawn due to lack of ships or Tau fleet activity. Most likely some were simply forgotten about in the rush to get to Macragge and stop Hive Fleet Behemoth. Private Slovaz doesn’t appear bitter or angry when he talks about being left behind, he’s probably been well-briefed.+++

“We fought the Tau as we’d been taught, but we couldn’t beat them. While their attacks were terrible, they were always honourable with us afterwards; they let us tend our wounded and bury our dead.”

+++ Tracking 0056-0064. Slovaz gestures and the shot pans to show sixty four stone eagle headstones on the hilltop in neat rows.+++

“When the time came that we couldn’t fight any more they offered us a truce and, because we knew we couldn’t serve the Emperor by dying, we took it.”

+++ Tracking 0064-0073. Slovaz starts walking down the hill, and a cluster of clean, white buildings comes into view down in the valley. The materials and construction are undoubtedly Tau, but the styling is more reminiscent of a human frontier settlement. Men, women and children can just be identified moving around the buildings.+++

“And what they said to us was that if we wanted this world enough to fight for it we could have it; other humans that needed a place to live could join us and we could make it our own. All that we needed to do was join the Tau empire and they would give us all the help of their technology and their protection.”

+++ Tracking 0073-0084. Shot refocuses on Slovaz as he stops and turns, the settlement neatly framed in the background. The smile fades from his face as he suddenly becomes serious. +++

“We told them that we could never renounce the Emperor, the guiding light of Humanity, that to treat with the aliens was to imperil our immortal souls.”

+++ Note: He looks deadly serious, voice stress analysis tests say its unlikely he’s lying (3.2%) but such things can be faked. Presumably the unit’s commissar was no longer able to provide guidance for the men by this point. +++

“They told us we could worship who we pleased, that all we need do was play our part in the Greater Good and our culture would be welcomed into the empire. In the Guard our chances of being able to found a world were about a million to one. The Tau wanted to give this one to us just because we’d fought for it. We would have been insane not to accept.”

+++ Tracking 0085-0090. Shot moves into close-up of Slovaz’s face, smiling warmly again.+++

“It was the best decision of our lives. Sure, the work has been worth it. We gained an opportunity to breathe life into a new world by meeting the Tau, a more honourable and generous people than any other I’ve met. So when you hear stories about them, remember what I’ve said. A lot of people will call me a traitor and a heretic but now you’ve heard my story you can decide about that for yourself. All I ask is that you think about whether the Tau really are a threat to Humanity, and what’s to be gained by fighting with them if they aren’t.”

+++ Image fades out. Transmission ends.+++
+++ Conclusions: In comparison to other alien attempts this is an extremely sophisticated piece of propaganda. By using a traitor to supply commentary it manages not only to convey the impression of the Tau military might but an advanced, open-minded culture capable of generosity and honour. Assuming that the settlement shown is not an elaborate deception it gives us confirmation of the existence of at least one traitor enclave and implies that there could be several others within Tau space. Change Imperium for Empire. Change Administratum for Aliens. The trade was as simple as that, from men who have trained to chants of ‘suffer not the alien to live’. This heresy must, will, be stamped out before it becomes a Contagion of Unbelief.+++

[Oslecamo]

the great thing about it is, you'd literally just borrow the Imperials own flag-waver vids and change the music from heroic to mornful. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

hell, thier is an transcript of a tau propaganda vid kicking about somewhere (it was in a white dwarf fluff piece, and I think it's on the GW site somewhere.)

Here it is:

CLEANSE THE XENOS

+++ vidslug activated+++
+++Commentary/txt only. Encrypted+++
+++Input Authorisation+++
+++Authorisation Accepted+++
+++ The following record was made from illegal las-line transmissions in the Slide underhive sector of Monrovia hive, Jakart IV.+++
+++Tracking 0001-0008. No image, voiceover only.+++

“Hello friend, I know you’re probably taking a risk watching this if the Imperium’s anything like I remember it,”

+++Voiceover ident: Private 893478JH728. Slovaz, Jerakim. 18th Brimlock Dragoons regt. Listed MIA in the Damocles crusade.+++

“So I’ll be brief”

+++ Tracking 0008-0016. Panning shot moves across a landscape of rolling green hills and a cloudless blue sky, ending on an obviously alien-built compound comprising four geodesic buildings, a generator plant and a drilling derrick. Image evaluation indicates three concealed observation posts on the surrounding hilltops, no personnel are visible.+++

“I’ve been asked to tell you something about the Tau.”

+++ Notes: The outpost shown is somewhere with a g-type star, spectrographic analysis gives a 72.4% possibility that it is AZ 34.2 on the edge of the Damocles gulf. We know this is what the Tau call a second phase colony world, basically a mechanised mining and ore extraction facility with a Fire Warrior garrison and a handful of non-combatant engineers. We’ve seen this piece used in propaganda before, vibrant azure sky and lush green hills makes good copy apparently.+++

“This is probably about the most you’ve seen of the Tau.”

Tau Fire Warrior+++ Tracking 0017-0022. Rapid cut to skirmish line of twenty-four alien warriors with energy weapons firing downhill into a charging mob of Orks. Seventeen Orks are felled from 0017-0020. From 0021-0022 the surviving Orks turn and flee.+++

+++ Tracking 0023-0027. Rapid cut to night shot of three large armoured figures dropping from an aerial vehicle using jet packs. The darkness behind them is cut by fire-trails indicating massed missile salvoes. Underlighting is apparent from ground detonations. The vehicle is mostly out of shot but the hatch design identifies it as a Manta class missile destroyer.+++

+++ Tracking 0028-0038. Fade to night shot from ground-based position. Eight large armoured figures sweep overhead, pouring energy weapon fire and missiles into three ruined buildings mostly hidden by flames and explosions. Scattered las-fire is the only reply, sparking harmlessly off the armoured figures. As the figures land their fire intensifies markedly before stopping as six weaponless Imperial Guardsmen emerge from the ruins with their hands in the air.+++

+++ Note: Sure enough these are familiar shots; Fire Warriors pushing back a rushing horde of Orks with disciplined volleys of shots, followed by flame-lit images of Battlesuits swooping down by night and efficiently levelling a hapless platoon of Imperial Guard. I think their Water caste like this one because the Fire Warriors stop firing so smoothly when the last few men throw down their weapons.+++

“Lots of things that prove they’re dangerous, devious aliens that’ll torture, eat or enslave every human they meet.”

+++ Tracking 0038-0047. Cut to free captain trade vessel [registration unknown], docked to a Tau orbital structure, planet is not in shot.+++

“But Mankind’s been getting that line about aliens for a long time now, and any free captain will tell you it’s not always true.”

+++ Tracking 0047-0056 This is the gem, the shot fades to Private Slovaz, now in his late sixties but looking hale and well-fed, bronzed by the sun and with a nice friendly smile. He’s standing on one of those lush green hills which is now marked out into fields and with several crawlers harvesting grain in the background.+++

“I was a soldier for the Emperor and I went to war with the Tau almost forty years ago. I was lucky and lived, but when the crusade pulled back they couldn’t take everyone with them.”

+++ Note: This keys with records of the Damocles crusade. Several garrisons could not be withdrawn due to lack of ships or Tau fleet activity. Most likely some were simply forgotten about in the rush to get to Macragge and stop Hive Fleet Behemoth. Private Slovaz doesn’t appear bitter or angry when he talks about being left behind, he’s probably been well-briefed.+++

“We fought the Tau as we’d been taught, but we couldn’t beat them. While their attacks were terrible, they were always honourable with us afterwards; they let us tend our wounded and bury our dead.”

+++ Tracking 0056-0064. Slovaz gestures and the shot pans to show sixty four stone eagle headstones on the hilltop in neat rows.+++

“When the time came that we couldn’t fight any more they offered us a truce and, because we knew we couldn’t serve the Emperor by dying, we took it.”

+++ Tracking 0064-0073. Slovaz starts walking down the hill, and a cluster of clean, white buildings comes into view down in the valley. The materials and construction are undoubtedly Tau, but the styling is more reminiscent of a human frontier settlement. Men, women and children can just be identified moving around the buildings.+++

“And what they said to us was that if we wanted this world enough to fight for it we could have it; other humans that needed a place to live could join us and we could make it our own. All that we needed to do was join the Tau empire and they would give us all the help of their technology and their protection.”

+++ Tracking 0073-0084. Shot refocuses on Slovaz as he stops and turns, the settlement neatly framed in the background. The smile fades from his face as he suddenly becomes serious. +++

“We told them that we could never renounce the Emperor, the guiding light of Humanity, that to treat with the aliens was to imperil our immortal souls.”

+++ Note: He looks deadly serious, voice stress analysis tests say its unlikely he’s lying (3.2%) but such things can be faked. Presumably the unit’s commissar was no longer able to provide guidance for the men by this point. +++

“They told us we could worship who we pleased, that all we need do was play our part in the Greater Good and our culture would be welcomed into the empire. In the Guard our chances of being able to found a world were about a million to one. The Tau wanted to give this one to us just because we’d fought for it. We would have been insane not to accept.”

+++ Tracking 0085-0090. Shot moves into close-up of Slovaz’s face, smiling warmly again.+++

“It was the best decision of our lives. Sure, the work has been worth it. We gained an opportunity to breathe life into a new world by meeting the Tau, a more honourable and generous people than any other I’ve met. So when you hear stories about them, remember what I’ve said. A lot of people will call me a traitor and a heretic but now you’ve heard my story you can decide about that for yourself. All I ask is that you think about whether the Tau really are a threat to Humanity, and what’s to be gained by fighting with them if they aren’t.”

+++ Image fades out. Transmission ends.+++
+++ Conclusions: In comparison to other alien attempts this is an extremely sophisticated piece of propaganda. By using a traitor to supply commentary it manages not only to convey the impression of the Tau military might but an advanced, open-minded culture capable of generosity and honour. Assuming that the settlement shown is not an elaborate deception it gives us confirmation of the existence of at least one traitor enclave and implies that there could be several others within Tau space. Change Imperium for Empire. Change Administratum for Aliens. The trade was as simple as that, from men who have trained to chants of ‘suffer not the alien to live’. This heresy must, will, be stamped out before it becomes a Contagion of Unbelief.+++

[LordVader]

And then, right at the end of that video, a Vindicaire Assassin puts a bullet in his brain. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, I can't stand the Tau. What angers me most of all is Tau players who refuse to acknowledge that their race is as bad as everyone else. Oh, that and the fact that apparently every Tau commander is a ****ing genius while every Imperial higher-up on the Eastern Fringe is a drooling vegetable who sits on his ass as the Tau carve up the eastern Imperium. Gaaaah. :smallyuk:
At least Farsight finally got trounced in the new Ork Codex. The Tau actually lost a battle? That's new!



The sword that killed the Grey Knight was probably Chaos-corrupted. It's been established in the Ragnar Blackmane series that Chaos-infected blades can cut clean through power armor.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Bah you're just to hopped up on Imperial Propaganda to see the truth of the Greater Good (and Chaos!:smallwink:)

[Mr. Scaly]

And then, right at the end of that video, a Vindicaire Assassin puts a bullet in his brain. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, I can't stand the Tau. What angers me most of all is Tau players who refuse to acknowledge that their race is as bad as everyone else. Oh, that and the fact that apparently every Tau commander is a ****ing genius while every Imperial higher-up on the Eastern Fringe is a drooling vegetable who sits on his ass as the Tau carve up the eastern Imperium. Gaaaah. :smallyuk:
At least Farsight finally got trounced in the new Ork Codex. The Tau actually lost a battle? That's new!



The sword that killed the Grey Knight was probably Chaos-corrupted. It's been established in the Ragnar Blackmane series that Chaos-infected blades can cut clean through power armor.

Methinks someone is a bit bitter about the Tau. ^^

If I ever get into Warhammer I may just go for the Orks or the Necrons. The orks are the least evil race...simply because they don't bother covering themselves with mass amounts of hypocrisy like most of the others do...can they even pronounce hypocrisy? And the Necrons are the only race the Tyranids might think about being afraid of.

Though I've always found myself drawn to the human races. Unless that's just Imperium propaganda.

[LordVader]

What I hate about the Tau is that apparently all their commanders are entitled to be incredibly gifted, and that all the Imperial commanders opposing them must be complete retards.

Seriously, I don't think they've ever actually outright LOST a battle/war, aside from that new stuff with Farsight who is turning out to be quite interesting, as he's apparently four times as old as the oldest Tau now.

Trust me, go Orks. They're great fun, just got a new book, and Necrons can be pretty boring atm: their Codex is pretty limited.

[Oslecamo]

What I hate about the Tau is that apparently all their commanders are entitled to be incredibly gifted, and that all the Imperial commanders opposing them must be complete retards.

Seriously, I don't think they've ever actually outright LOST a battle/war, aside from that new stuff with Farsight who is turning out to be quite interesting, as he's apparently four times as old as the oldest Tau now.

Trust me, go Orks. They're great fun, just got a new book, and Necrons can be pretty boring atm: their Codex is pretty limited.


Oh, the Tau have lost battles. Here, just for you, the Tau geting their ass quicked.

None can escape the Emperor's wrath. On the distant world of Nimbosa, a xenos threat has arisen - a Tau outpost on the edge of Imperial space. The Ultramarines are promptly dispatched to pacify the would-be aggressors.
Ultramarines lay down a punishing hail of bolter-fire

The sweet aroma of incense filled the launch bay of Severian and drifted in lazy coils from the incense burners carried by the Chaplaincy Hierophants who followed Chaplain Clausel. The scent reminded Captain Agemman of the northern highlands of Macragge, and he experienced a moment's nostalgia for his homeworld before his thoughts returned to the skull-masked Chaplain's prayers. He and a score of his fellow warriors of the Ultramarines' First Company knelt to receive Chaplain Clausel's blessing before climbing into their drop pods to begin the assault on the Tau colony below. Techmarines and expressionless servitors ministered to the drop pods, used silver aspergilla to anoint their charges with blessed oils, and removed the sacred warding pins that chained them to the deck of Severian.

Ultramarines Company Standard Bearer"Into the fires of battle we go," intoned Clausel.

"Unto the anvil of war we strike," replied the Space Marines.

"We are the Ultramarines, warriors of the Emperor, and our bravery is beyond question! It is the stuff of the soul-forge, stronger than adamantium and enduring as the Immortal Emperor Himself. The fires of battle are our places of worship, the roar of bolters our prayers, and the slaughter of our foes an offering to the gods of battle!"

"Our bolters are charged with death," promised the assembled Space Marines. "They are the divine wrath of the Emperor!"

Clausel nodded, stopped before the opening of the nearest drop pod, and turned as his acolytes approached with his crozius arcanum and rosarius borne within vermilion-lined reliquary boxes. The crozius glittered as Clausel lifted it from the box, torch light winking from the blood-red eyes of the winged skull atop the weapon. Clausel leaned forward and allowed a hierophant with a gold face mask to place the rosarius around his neck, the heavy chain of the protective amulet contrasting starkly with the black of his armour.

Agemman rose to his feet, and the warriors of his company followed suit, the launch bay echoing to the crash of booted feet slamming to attention. He marched to stand beside Clausel and turned to his assembled warriors.

"Look to your weapons, brothers," he said. "We go to war!"

The sky above the Tau outpost on Nimbosa was a dirty, smudged mess of contrails and flak, batteries of pulse cannon painting the sky with traceries of fire. Streamers of fire streaked the sky as the Space Marine drop pods slashed downward toward their targets. Smoke from burning buildings twisted in the wind, and flames crackled hungrily as they devoured the fledgling xeno outpost. Tau tanks glided through the ruins as the first of the drop pods impacted the surface of the planet in great wash of flaring rocket engines. The armoured sides of the drop pod clanged open, and Captain Agemman swiftly debarked from the pod onto the surface of Nimbosa, his Terminators following him out and forming a perimeter.

"All squads, converge on my position. Wedge formation. Target dead ahead!"

Scrambling teams of alien soldiers opened fire on the newly arrived Terminators, but the blessings placed upon them held firm. Not a single warrior fell. The answering fire of the Terminators ripped through the Tau warriors and shredded them in a hail of mass-reactive bolts. More and more drop pods were landing. The blue-armoured Space Marines spread out in a prearranged pattern to secure the landing zone and push onto the Tau battery position. Thunderhawk gunships were en route with yet more warriors, and the Tau anti-aircraft guns had proven uncannily adept at shooting down Imperial aircraft. That could not be allowed to continue. Agemman watched Chaplain Clausel cut down Tau warriors like wheat before the scythe, his crozius arcanum a blinding, golden arc as it cut through alien armour and flesh. His bellowed Litanies of Hate spurred those around him to greater effort, and the slaughter was magnificent to behold.
Space Marine Drop Pods
Space Marine Drop Pods.

Explosions and gunfire filled the air, the whine of pulse rounds and the chatter of bolter fire mingling in an all-consuming crescendo. Agemman and his Terminators smashed through the barricades protecting the makeshift entrance to the battery. An actinic pulse of blue light lit up the landscape as the guns fired, and Agemman knew they did not have much time. A trio of mechanised battlesuits, the elite warriors of the Tau, came into view, powerful weapons spitting bright bolts of death at his warriors. Brother Helion, the veteran of the Gabalas Crusade fell, his arm a bloody ruin, the flesh and armour fused into a molten mass. The doughty warrior picked himself up, as pain balms were dispensed from his armour. They would allow the veteran to carry on fighting despite the horrific wound.

Space Marine Veteran Concept Art"Jantine!" shouted Agemman.

"Assault cannon!"

Brother Jantine swung the multiple barrels of his weapon around, the whine of the motor cutting through the barks of gunfire and crump of explosions. Shells spat from the barrel of the assault cannon and kicked up great plumes of powdered rockcrete and alien blood, as hundreds of shells tore through the battlesuits in a matter of seconds. Shells continued to rip the alien warriors apart long after they were dead.

"Enough!" called Agemman. "To expend ammunition needlessly is wasteful. Assign yourself three days fasting for lax targeting rituals."

"Yes, Brother Captain," said Jantine, bowing his head. "It will not happen again."

Agemman accepted Jantine's contrition and said, "I know that, but let us push on. This battery is not going to destroy itself."

Agemman watched as the last of the charges detonated and the great barrels of the gun battery come crashing down. Flames leapt skyward and the noise of Imperial transports inbound for the liberated airfields was deafening. He and his warriors gathered in a circle to give thanks for their victory and to offer their prayers to the war spirits of their battle gear. The number of alien dead was unknown yet, though Agemman knew it would be high. They had left no survivors, and the site had been well-defended but not so well-defended that it could stand before the might of the Space Marines.

Space Marine Veteran Concept ArtHe finished the Litany of the Warrior and rose to his feet as Chaplain Clausel approached, the wings and skull of his crozius arcanum stained red with the blood of his foes. The two Space Marines shook hands in the warrior's grip, wrist-to-wrist.

"Your men fought with courage and honour," said Clausel.

"Aye, that they did. Your courage was an example to us all."

Clausel nodded, "In these difficult times, warriors need an example to follow."

Agemman nodded. As well as exhorting the Space Marines to greater and greater feats of courage, it was a Chaplain's sacred task to minister to the spiritual well-being of his company. The recent loss of the 4th Company's Captain and its senior Sergeant had inflicted a serious blow to its warriors' morale, and Clausel had spent many long days in prayer and fasting with them.

"Will you take prayer with my men?" asked Agemman, changing the subject.

"That I will, Captain Agemman," said Clausel. "I would offer them the Benediction of Battle."

"We would be honoured for you to speak it," nodded Agemman.

[Talkkno]

I remember the Grey Knight Book.

Yeah basically, a feudal world thats been corrupted by Chaos tries to engage the Space Marines with what amounts to thousands of Medieval Knights, augmented and mutated by chaos along with attendant footmen rushing the Grey Knights. One dies.

Eh, mind posting out a passage? I swear that point in the book made me go WTF!?!?!?. Because I'm pretty the only ones that were actully touched by Chaos so to speak was the Priest and the guys inside the castle that the Marines break into.

[Talkkno]

Stuff...

Don't Tau pulse rifles out range bolters by a decent margin? And more powerful?

[Mr. Scaly]

What I hate about the Tau is that apparently all their commanders are entitled to be incredibly gifted, and that all the Imperial commanders opposing them must be complete retards.

Seriously, I don't think they've ever actually outright LOST a battle/war, aside from that new stuff with Farsight who is turning out to be quite interesting, as he's apparently four times as old as the oldest Tau now.

Trust me, go Orks. They're great fun, just got a new book, and Necrons can be pretty boring atm: their Codex is pretty limited.

Maybe it's a Rock Paper Scissors kind of thing?

Tau beats Imperium, Imperium beats Eldar, Eldar beats orks, orks beat tyranids, tyranids beat Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar beats Necrons, Necrons beat Tau.

Now I just have to scrape together the money for books and little figurines. Heh.

[Oslecamo]

Now I just have to scrape together the money for books and little figurines. Heh.

I would play the game, if I got people near me to play with. Hmm, maybe I can make 2 armies and persuade my friends to play with me. I would take the IG. Just love the IG.

Talkkno, that story was from the gamesworkshop site itself. Thus can't really answer your question. Maybe the tau were stupid and got too close. Maybe it's some kind of blessed bolter. Who knows.

[LordVader]

Don't Tau pulse rifles out range bolters by a decent margin? And more powerful?

Yes, but when you take into account Fire Warriors vs Space Marines, they only win because they're cheaper, as Bolters will wound a Tau as easily as a Pulse Rifle wounds a Marine, they hit more often, and Tau have a lower Armor Save.

So Marines are still better. ^^

And Oslecamo, you see, right after that battle a single Fire Warrior came in and pwned the entire Ultramarines Chapter. :smallyuk:

Or that's the impression you get from reading the Tau Codex and assorted fluff, anyways.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Really? The Impression I get from all their fluff is that they're a society with alot of advanced technology due to the fact they aren't ignorant like the Imperium, and are not the pushovers people try to make them, but that doesn't make them the best thing to happen to the galaxy since the Emperor was born. But maybe you see it differently because you're a shortsighted propaganda fed xeno-hater like the rest of your beloved Imperium :smalltongue:

[LordVader]

Actually, Imperial technology is just as advanced as Tau, if not more so.


Yeah. I said it. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, reading the Tau Codex sickens me. Yeah, I have problems, but their fluff makes me nauseous. "OMG we are t3h roxx0rz and GW loves us so we can never suffer a major setback l0l" basically sums up their entire book. :smallyuk:

The main difference between the Imperium and the Tau Empire is that the Imperium doesn't pretend to not have its best interests in mind. The Greater Good is really "the Greater Good for the Tau, and no one else."

I'm going to sit down and count to ten and remember this is all just fiction now...

[Talkkno]

Seriously, though, reading the Tau Codex sickens me. Yeah, I have problems, but their fluff makes me nauseous. "OMG we are t3h roxx0rz and GW loves us so we can never suffer a major setback l0l" basically sums up their entire book. :smallyuk:
Well they are the underdogs, they only a few hundred planets at best, compared the millions of planets the Imperium commands, the Tau at best are a minor nuisance comparable random Ork WAAGH! if not less so compared to threats such as Chaos.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Imperium tech WOULD be comparable to Tau tech at least (I still think the Tau have more advanced tech in some areas but whatever) if they weren't such stupid n' ignorant gitz that they never use it :smalltongue:

but yea, you overestimate how much plot armor the Tau have, really they are very powerful for an Empire their size, and their technology is more than a match for the Imperiums average tech level, but they're just alot smaller than the Imperium, its been stated that the only reason the Imperium isn't doing more against them is because of the Tyranid Hive Fleets and other such more pressing matters, and settle for trying to stunt the Tau growth in the eastern fringes without sparking a war, a war that the Imperium can ill afford to fight and would probably lose (they can't bring all their power to bear and even if they brought more than they should the Tau have a significant enough presence and power base to withstand the forces the Imperium can throw at them. Simply put, the Tau are a thorn in the Imperiums side, but it would be stupid of them to turn away from the bear trying to maul its face to remove it.

[Mr. Scaly]

Actually, Imperial technology is just as advanced as Tau, if not more so.


Yeah. I said it. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, reading the Tau Codex sickens me. Yeah, I have problems, but their fluff makes me nauseous. "OMG we are t3h roxx0rz and GW loves us so we can never suffer a major setback l0l" basically sums up their entire book. :smallyuk:

The main difference between the Imperium and the Tau Empire is that the Imperium doesn't pretend to not have its best interests in mind. The Greater Good is really "the Greater Good for the Tau, and no one else."

I'm going to sit down and count to ten and remember this is all just fiction now...

From what I've read the Tau got their tails kicked by the Imperium during the Damocles Gulf Crusade. If Hive Fleet Behemoth hadn't shown up the Imperium might have won at Dal'yth. And right now they're having troubles with what's left of Hive Fleet Kraken. Not to mention the Orks.

[LordVader]

Nope, apparently the Damocles Gulf Crusade was "bogged down" and "stalemated". :smallyuk:

We can tell the Imperium's tech level is better easily: Battlesuits offer the same protection as Power Armor but are far larger and more inefficient. Hell, the lasgun could be considered more advanced, or at least more efficient, then the pulse rufle. The most powerful Tau weapons are inherently projectile-based while the Imperium relies on energy weapons for its most destructive.

And the Imperium has Cyclonic Torpedoes. Win. :smallbiggrin:

[Mr. Scaly]

True, but reinforcements were cut off by the Hive's attack. With more support the crusade, which had been rolling through Tau space until then, could have won.

[LordVader]

No doubt they all would've died of driving the fleet into a black hole or something if that had happened.

The main problem with the Tau is that their "empire's" so small, if they lost a war they'd be totally wiped out!:smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Actually I thought the Tau won the damocles gulf crusade, which to be fair was rather small, it only had a few cruisers and like one battleship, and they flew right into the heart of the Tau Empire.

And a Tau Battlesuit can also turn an Imperium tank into slag, and their average infantry rifles deal damage on par with Space Marine bolters, which is a hell of a lot of damage, considering how frakking big SM bolters are, and this is their AVERAGE INFANTRY GUN, the lasgun? its a glorified flashlight. and the kind of weapon shouldn't matter, only the damage it does. A bolter does significantly more damage than a lasgun, therefore it is superior. And considering rail guns can destroy ships fairly well and gut tanks and APC's with some relative ease I'd say they're about matched.

[Talkkno]

And considering rail guns can destroy ships fairly well and gut tanks and APC's with some relative ease I'd say they're about matched.

But they thing is, the Tau doesn't even a cruiser that can stand up the basic Imperium cruiser, Lunar-Class.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Well I've checked the stats and while Tau ships aren't quite as good they cost alot less points wise, I.E. they don't stand up as well in a one on one fight your right (mostly due to the fact that until recently they haven't really HAD to have ships that are that powerful) but they have a lot of them.

[LordVader]

A Space Marine with a lascannon also turns tanks to slag and is harder to target and kill then a battlesuit. :smallwink:

Bolters are vastly underrepresented in the actual game mechanics, I suspect that they're stronger than a pulse rifle in the fluff. They're firing min-rockets after all. And the lasgun may not pack quite the killing power of a pulse rifle, but a) it may be used fairly effectively in hand-to-hand fighting as a club, whereas the pulse rifle is very unwieldly b) is cheap, easy to produce and maintain even in the field c) is not very ammo-dependent, and you can even refuel it by throwing the pack in a fire.

Railguns are as powerful, or more so, then lascannons, but the point is that lascannons are more technologically advanced.


Also, one more tip: Never claim Tau anything is better because of the numbers it is available in. :smallwink:

The reason I get angry about the D.G.C. is that it was a major offensive, and just petered out and then ran away, making it like it never happened.

[Mr. Scaly]

The reason I get angry about the D.G.C. is that it was a major offensive, and just petered out and then ran away, making it like it never happened.

Well, as the Orks of the Blood Axez clan say:

"It don't count as losing, cuz we can also come back for anuvver go, see?"

[Talkkno]

Railguns are as powerful, or more so, then lascannons, but the point is that lascannons are more technologically advanced.

This stinks of a fallacy
"A lot of sci-fi fans think that weapon firepower is irrelevant in the face of weapon technology level. The argument typically goes as follows: "Weapon A is more advanced than weapon B because of <technobabble>. Therefore, it is more powerful."

This is a specious argument of the highest order. A higher-tech weapon is not necessarily more destructive than a lower-tech weapon- destruction is based entirely on the amount of energy delivered to the target. Many advancements in weapons technology have been designed to enhance the energy yield of the weapon, so the concepts of "technology level" and "energy yield" have been confused by many observers. Chemical-explosive shells are more destructive than less-advanced solid metal cannonballs, but that is because they release more energy. Nuclear weapons are more destructive than less-advanced chemical explosives, but that is because they release more energy.

However, if an advanced weapon carries much less energy than a primitive weapon, then it will be less destructive regardless of its technology level. As an example, the 120mm smoothbore cannon of an M1A2 Abrams tank is one of the most technologically sophisticated projectile weapons in the world. And yet, it is far less destructive, and has much shorter range than the monstrous howitzers and battleship cannons built five decades ago, because it delivers less energy to the target.

The most important performance specification of a physically destructive weapon (as opposed to anti-personnel chemical and/or biological weapons) is its energy yield. Physical destruction is caused by energy. A certain amount of thermal energy is necessary to melt a given quantity of material. A certain amount of deformation energy is required to strain a piece of material to its physical breaking point. A certain amount of energy is required to remove an object from a planet's gravity well, or to gravitationally unbind the planet itself. There are no shortcuts- highly focused weapons still must perform the same work per unit mass, but by focusing their energies they reduce the amount of material that they must melt, vaporize, or break."

[Lord_Asmodeus]

A Space Marine with a lascannon also turns tanks to slag and is harder to target and kill then a battlesuit. :smallwink:

well thats debatable, Battlesuits are described in fluff as being highly mobile and able to move quite fast, which leaves Imperials stunned as they don't expect that kind of speed out of what essentially seems to them to be a Dreadnought


Bolters are vastly underrepresented in the actual game mechanics, I suspect that they're stronger than a pulse rifle in the fluff. They're firing min-rockets after all. And the lasgun may not pack quite the killing power of a pulse rifle, but a) it may be used fairly effectively in hand-to-hand fighting as a club, whereas the pulse rifle is very unwieldly b) is cheap, easy to produce and maintain even in the field c) is not very ammo-dependent, and you can even refuel it by throwing the pack in a fire.

Well the bolter minirockets thing is debatable but yes they're powerful, but so are pulse rifles, and really the only thing that the Pulse Rifle doesn't seem to surpass the Lasgun in is its use as a close combat weapon, and if it comes to that for the Tau obviously something went wrong and they're screwed anyway, and I don't think the Tau even have to RELOAD their guns.


Railguns are as powerful, or more so, then lascannons, but the point is that lascannons are more technologically advanced.

Wheres the proof? so its a laser, big honking deal, just being a laser doesn't make it more advanced.


Also, one more tip: Never claim Tau anything is better because of the numbers it is available in. :smallwink:

Dude, they're SHIPS, ships work differently than troops, and Tau have the numbers advantage in considering their empires size they have hell of a lot of the things and the Imperiums bulk of its fleets are busy, so the Tau would be able to bog down the Imperiums fleets in numbers.


The reason I get angry about the D.G.C. is that it was a major offensive, and just petered out and then ran away, making it like it never happened.

Well they kinda... lost, it was their first real experience with the Tau in anything other than the surface of their empire, and they thought they were just a really small maybe one sector empire, whereas in reality they have at least several sectors (which may not be alot compared to the Imperium, but its a hell of a lot more than they expected) which is to say, they underestimated the Tau and they payed for it, simple as that.

[Talkkno]

Wheres the proof? so its a laser, big honking deal, just being a laser doesn't make it more advanced.





Wait, Lord_Asmodeus, can you care to read the post before? I think Lord Vader somehow rationalizes is believes that a more advanced weapon=better, disregarding to yield.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Here's wikipedia on a Tau Railgun
Railgun

Linear accelerator cannons. These weapons fire a single, solid projectile at hypervelocity through the force generated in an electric circuit, although the vehicle-mounted version can also fire a sophisticated bundle of submunitions.

Railguns have been used for some time by battlesuits and vehicles, and the technology has been scaled up to the point where massive railcannon batteries are mounted on Air Caste starships. However, it was only recently that the Tau began to experiment with man-portable weapons based on railgun technology. Although weaker than its larger counterparts, the rail rifle is still powerful enough to be an effective anti-tank weapon. To use a rail rifle, the bearer must also be equipped with a hard-wired targeting device. During trials, one of the main flaws of the rail rifle was that the massive energy requirements needed to power the electromagnetic linear accelerator would overload the targeting device, causing feedback in the hard-wire interface, which in turn would kill the rifle's bearer (the current required to accelerate the projectile to a practical speed takes up an enormous amount of power). This flaw has been fixed through constant field-testing, and was authorised for use by frontline Pathfinder teams just prior to the declaration of the 'Third Sphere Expansion'. The rail rifle is now also mounted on drones, which form part of 'sniper teams', along with their tau controller.

Its kind of hard to judge which is more advanced but think about it like this, we have lasers now and they can be destructive, its just we don't know how to make guns of them, I don't know about rail guns (I remember something about experimenting with this but I can't remember) but I'm not going to say one is more advanced than the other, since their only similarity is being weapons of some kind, which when you think about it, isnt that much of a similarity.

[turkishproverb]

Stormtrooper Indoctrinator: You are the best, of the best, of the best!

Stormtrooper: Then why do the Scout Marines get bolters?

Stormtrooper Indoctrinator: Commisar, kill that man.

Love it.


And then, right at the end of that video, a Vindicaire Assassin puts a bullet in his brain. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, I can't stand the Tau. What angers me most of all is Tau players who refuse to acknowledge that their race is as bad as everyone else. Oh, that and the fact that apparently every Tau commander is a ****ing genius while every Imperial higher-up on the Eastern Fringe is a drooling vegetable who sits on his ass as the Tau carve up the eastern Imperium. Gaaaah. :smallyuk:


Dude, the tau are the Chiss. Deal with it.

As to the as bad. Well, not really. they are, but not in the way people think. Their great individualist is either chaos or necron tainted, and their culture is held together (in therms of the actual tau race) by pheromone spouting opportunists, with a built in "with us or against us" doctrine that allows for taking in former enemies but crushing those who won't come.


Really, the imperium, chaos, necrons, and the dark eldar are the only abjectly (more or less) evil ones in the situation.

1. The Eldar are like tolkiens elves, attempting to survive on their own and atone, but screwing others over in the process.
2. The tyranids and orks, while a huge threat, are basically forces of nature
3. the kroot are basically nomads. minor threat, relativelly tolerable.

[Eita]

Stuff

Ah, but it is you sir who made a fallacy. You compared apples to oranges by comparing an M1 Abrams Tank's main cannon to that of a battleship and artillery piece. Compare the destructive powers of a WW2 tank and an M1 Abrams please.

Oh, and, guess what, it's way easier to gravitationally accelerate something then to make a freaking laser.

EDIT: Also, there are more Space Marines then just the 1,000,000. Only the Tactical, Assault, and Devastator Marines of a Chapter are accredited to the 1,000 limit. Also, the Space Wolfs and the Black Templar completely destroy that limit.

EDIT 2: Actually, the IoM is one of the best guys around. They're just trying to survive. They're essentially the Eldar sans seeking atonement.

[Talkkno]

Oh, and, guess what, it's way easier to gravitationally accelerate something then to make a freaking laser.



Does it really matter what form the weapon is in? Sparing technobabble, yield is what determines how powerful a weapon really is.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

And you have proof that its easier to make a rail gun than a laser gun? (note I didn't say gravitationally accelerate something, I said actually make a gun out of it in the same fashion the Tau did) and incase this helps heres the Imperium Lasguns and Lacannons

Lasgun

The lasgun is the standard-issue weapon for all Imperial Guardsmen. It fires a focused laser beam, powerful enough to remove an unarmoured human limb in a single blast, but not as effective against durable alien bodies or heavy armour. People who play the table-top game refer to the lasgun as "flashlight" due its low strength and lack of armour penetration, especially when compared to the basic weapons of the other armies. Because of this relative lack of power, the lasgun is most effective when delivering focused fire from multiple units, and less effective when used singly. [3]

Lasguns are powered by small rechargeable power packs. Power output can be adjusted to extend the life of the charge. The power packs are extremely reliable and can be recharged by exposing them to direct sunlight, by heating (putting them directly into flames works, but this reduces the lifetime of a power pack and increases the chance of misfires).[10] These features of the lasgun are not visible in Dawn of War.[19], where ammunition is not a factor, but are implemented in the Necromunda tabletop skirmish game. In Necromunda, weapons with limited ammunition must pass ammunition rolls which check whether a particular weapon has run out of ammo; the lasgun receives a bonus on this check.[4]

Certain types of lasgun have specific uses, such as the long las which has a longer barrel and greatly improved power and range. These are generally used in a sniper role, and use overpowered liquid metal batteries known as hotshots, which have only one power setting. The power and heat from the improved beam quickly wears out the barrels, which are replaceable and good for about twenty shots each. The lascarbine is a carbine form of the lasgun, designed for special operations and units, usually employed by drop troopers or scout units of the Imperial Guard. It is light and compact, allowing it to be easily stowed so it does not interfere with the carrier's mobility. It was used by the Tanith First & Only,[citation needed] Elysian Drop Troops,[citation needed] Catachans[1] and Inquisitor Gregor Eisenhorn.[citation needed] A rarely seen form of the lasgun is the Assault Laser, wielded almost entirely by private concerns due to its high maintenance requirements - the focusing rings must be replaced every thousand shots or so and this can only be done by a Techpriest. Assault Lasers are known for their immense rate of fire and higher armour-piercing ability compared to the standard lasrifle.
and here's the lascannon

Lascannon

The lascannon is one of the anti-tank weapons available to Imperial forces. Its high strength and armour-piercing ability make it a formidable weapon. Lascannons are basically a scaled-up implementation of the "las" technology also used in lasrifles. Space Marines make extensive use of lascannons, and are also fielded in Imperial Guard heavy weapon squads as a crew-served weapon. Lascannons are also mounted on Land Raiders, Predator Annihilators, Dreadnoughts, and many other Imperial vehicles.[5][10]

[Eita]

Does it really matter what form the weapon is in? Sparing technobabble, yield is what determines how powerful a weapon really is.

I was not arguing yield. I was arguing technological development. Now then, off to Asmodeus's post.

[Eita]

Now then, Lord Asmodeus, yes, it is. Why? Because, we have made railguns. We have not made lascannons. Railguns are foreseeable weapons. Las weaponry is naught but a dream in any way besides stunning.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

And, just to repeat myself, the Rail Gun is just one piece of their tech, and they use it because it works, they also have The standard infantry weapon of Tau Fire Warriors, pulse weapons use electromagnetic induction fields to convert particles to a plasma state and propel them out the barrel of the weapon. There are several different types of pulse weapon:

* The pulse rifle carried by Fire Warrior teams is superior to the boltguns used by the Space Marines. The effective range and hitting power of a pulse rifle is one of the greatest of any standard-issue weapon used by any force in the galaxy, and often outranges the heavy weapons of other races.
* Pulse carbines are used by Pathfinder teams and are fitted to gun drones. They are also used occasionally by Fire Warrior teams, although most players prefer not to make use of this option due to the short range. Although as powerful as pulse rifles, carbines are smaller, trading range and rate of fire for portability and an underslung photon grenade launcher, which can dazzle and disorient targets. (In the Fire Warrior game, the launcher can also be used to gain increased range on a high-explosive grenade.) Pathfinders often use a pulse carbine with an integrated markerlight above the barrel. Gun drones are armed with twin-linked pulse carbines.
* Pulse pistols are small hold-out weapons issued to battlesuit pilots and the controllers of sniper drones. They have an extremely short range, but are slightly more powerful than an Imperial bolt pistol. They are a rare weapon not available on any model sprue, and thus only and those are standard infantry guns, plus I don't know where you fit this onto your "rack of techno-standing" but ION CANNONS! Ion Cannon

An alternate turret-mounted weapon for the Hammerhead Gunship, and also appearing on Tau fightercraft and starships, the Ion Cannon generates a stream of high-energy particles, which are fired by the manipulation of an electromagnetic field. The particles react explosively with the target, as a result of direct energy transmission at the atomic level.

Although the firepower of the Ion Cannon is slightly less than the tank-mounted railgun, it has a high rate of fire and is very effective against armored infantry (e.g. Space Marines). For example, in theory a Hammerhead Gunship equipped with an Ion Cannon and twin Burst Cannons carries the potential to destroy 90% of a full space marine squad in one attack, although this is extremely unlikely in practice. Ion Cannon are also seemingly more easily produced and consume less energy than the devastating Railguns.

I still think their tech is on a similar level, but the Tau technology is far more widespread, the Imperium would probably be more advanced around the time of the Great Crusade, but their technology has stagnated and decreased over the millenia.