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drfate
2008-01-06, 07:33 PM
Well my usual group is starting a new game and that means i have to make a new character. Now im not bad at making characters its just im bad at deciding what to play. Usually im the last one to make there character after seeign what everyone else is playing. The few times i pick without seeing what everyone else is playing the group ends up missing a major component or we have two of the class. the group im playing with is going to have a warlock, cleric that is martial combat oriented and a cleric that is focused on ranged combat with a crossbow.

So any suggestions for race, class, feats etc would be helpful

Rolaran
2008-01-06, 07:39 PM
Well, the obvious gap in that party is your traditional skill monkey. Maybe consider a rogue, ranger or other class with several useful skills. Personally, looking at this party, if both clerics are going to focus on making themselves fighting machines, I would also consider playing something like a bard, a marshal or (if you have Player's Handbook II) a dragon shaman; with that many allies fighting, a flat bonus to combat rolls could prove more helpful than you'd think.

Dihan
2008-01-06, 07:41 PM
If Dungeonscape is available go for Factotum. Perfect for players who can't decide what to be.

bugsysservant
2008-01-06, 07:44 PM
A Monk! The world can never have too many monks! *ducks and runs*

Seriously, I second factotum. Very useful, and while I'm not as big a fan as many on this boards, I have enjoyed playing them in the past, and know many people who also love them. Bard is also a good choice, having good skills and good party back up, consider mixing with other classes, such as a couple of levels of marshall.

nerulean
2008-01-06, 09:12 PM
All those 3/4 BABs would certainly appreciate a bard. Buff Inspire Courage to make yourself very popular indeed. Bard does, of course, lack one or two key skills (open lock, f'rinstance) which might make a rogue a better choice, and the factotum is definitely appealing.

I would add to the suggestion list the beguiler from the PHBII, which has a rogue's skill list and trades sneak attack for nine levels of arcane casting goodness. These guys are seriously nice, and have some good buffs in their arsenal as well as a huge amount of out-of-combat usefulness.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-06, 09:30 PM
Bard or Beguiler. Those are both Arcane casters/skillmonkies, which you need.

TheBlackDog
2008-01-06, 09:36 PM
I definitely second Beguiler. The combination of arcane casting and skill monkey seems to be exactly what your party is missing. Plus, the class is simply tons of fun to play.

SilentNight
2008-01-06, 09:41 PM
Bard or Beguiler. Those are both Arcane casters/skillmonkies, which you need.

A beguiler would be nice but they should learn some summoning spells to back up the combat cleric.

Sornjss Lichdom
2008-01-06, 09:56 PM
I third.. wait, forth. the beguiler. Covers the lack of a skill monkey, and back up the weaker arcane side of the group.

drfate
2008-01-07, 12:16 PM
I was thinking of a skill monkey and the bard seemed pretty like a decent change from what i normally change plus theres lots of great PrC out there for it. I've played a marshal and it was fun until level 7-8 where there is really a gap in there class abilities and it takes about 4 more levels of nothing but new powers before your bonuses to your major aura increases. Rogue always fun.

now the beguiler i've looked at and i like it except the feinting ability it gets says you have to remain in melee and the beguiler doesnt seem very durable. If a beguiler doesnt feint often does that pretty much nerf its ability to increase the DCs of its spells when it catches its opponents flatfooted or is there a way around this problem that im not seeing like using a reach weapon or something like that

Keld Denar
2008-01-07, 01:17 PM
now the beguiler i've looked at and i like it except the feinting ability it gets says you have to remain in melee and the beguiler doesnt seem very durable. If a beguiler doesnt feint often does that pretty much nerf its ability to increase the DCs of its spells when it catches its opponents flatfooted or is there a way around this problem that im not seeing like using a reach weapon or something like that

Attack from hiding or invisibility, and jack up your init mod to make sure you go first. Get a Choaker of Umbral Metamorphesis to gain the Dark template for HiPS. Those are the best ways to flat-foot your opponent. At med-high levels, your first action should be greater invis anyway, since it is a great defensive action and then allows you to cast all your spells vs flatfooted people. Feinting looks like it was thrown on as an afterthought, without reading the ability. Just don't use it. Its one minor ability amongst a whole pile of freakin sweet abilities.

crimson77
2008-01-07, 07:07 PM
Usually I'm the last one to make there character after seeing what everyone else is playing. The few times i pick without seeing what everyone else is playing the group ends up missing a major component or we have two of the class.

Often it does not actually hinder the party to be missing a core class, it just means that the party must come up with some creative ways to solve problems. I think that it is important that one's character does not just exist to fill the void, but is something fun to play.


the group I'm playing with is going to have a warlock, cleric that is martial combat oriented and a cleric that is focused on ranged combat with a crossbow.

If you wanted to play something that the party is missing, I would suggest a wizard who does not specialize in combat spells like fireball. This is mainly due to the warlock being specialized in this area. However, wizards have a large assortment of other spells that can be very beneficial.

Another option would be to play a skill monkey (as said before)


So any suggestions for race, class, feats etc would be helpful

For the most enjoyment I would actually suggest diverting from what the "party needs," to something that you would enjoy playing. I call them memorable characters. Here are a few from my past:

A halfling thief who dressed as a child, he had high ranks in disguise (so he could pass as a child), high ranks in bluff and diplomacy (along with slight of hand). This character actually lasted several gaming sessions without the party realizing that he was a halfing not a child. One player actually pulled the DM outside to question him about allowing me to play a human child.

A gnome illusionist who struggled with casting spells (due to low stats) but learned the art of explosions and would try to pass them off as actual spells.

A human thief/illusionist who attempted to start his own religion and actually gathered a number of followers who became very helpful in quests, gaining information, locating individuals, and supplying money and goods.

These characters illustrate a change in focus; instead of specializing in a skill/role the party needs, they focus on roleplaying. They handle situations differently and become characters in the story not just generic classes.

Charity
2008-01-07, 08:01 PM
A beguiler would be nice but they should learn some summoning spells to back up the combat cleric.

Advanced learning only allows spells from the enchantment and Illusion schools.
tut tut Silvanos I'm picking up your slack here:smallwink:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-07, 08:59 PM
Advanced learning only allows spells from the enchantment and Illusion schools.
tut tut Silvanos I'm picking up your slack here:smallwink:

Shadow conjuration!

drfate
2008-01-07, 09:10 PM
thanks for the suggestions. Now here's another question would the Nightmare Spinner Class from Complete Mage mesh well with the Beguiler or would it be a waste to go into that prestige class

Charlie Kemek
2008-01-07, 10:12 PM
I also say beguiler

Wordmiser
2008-01-07, 11:55 PM
thanks for the suggestions. Now here's another question would the Nightmare Spinner Class from Complete Mage mesh well with the Beguiler or would it be a waste to go into that prestige class You lose HP, skill points, three caster levels (putting you two full spell levels behind your Cleric buddy) for no gain which actual spells wouldn't outweigh.

I recommend Beguiler 20, Factotum 1/Cloistered Cleric X and Beguiler/Wizard Ultimate Magus.

The_Snark
2008-01-08, 12:01 AM
Er, Nightmare Spinner loses 1 caster level, not three. You do take a bit of a ding to hit points, and a bit of a ding to skills, though, and the abilities have Charisma-based save DCs- not your casting stat, unfortunately.

It certainly wouldn't cripple you—if you like the flavor of the class, whether it be the included flavor or your own, go for it. If you're simply looking for a good prestige class, it's probably not worth the bother. Beguiler works perfectly well on its own.

Charity
2008-01-08, 08:35 AM
Shadow conjuration!

Yes, yes but that is not what he said.
Also shadow conjuration of creatures is weak, you cant use them against objects, or mindless creatures, or stuff with a decent will save...
Don't get me wrong it is a versatile spell (especially given the school restrictions) but it is not very good for summoning creatures.

Telonius
2008-01-08, 09:45 AM
Hmm. Tough choice there. You've got your buffs and healing very well covered, but lack trapfinding and skillmonkey-ing.

I'm going to use a non-standard suggestion here and say Artificer. It's another full casting class. You can cooperate with the Cleric to make aligned weapons and nice armor. Your Warlock will appreciate the scrolls and wands you create for him; depending on your DM he may be able to Aid you when you make your UMD check to create the item.

Fizban
2008-01-09, 12:13 AM
Advanced learning only allows spells from the enchantment and Illusion schools.
tut tut Silvanos I'm picking up your slack here:smallwink:
But Eclectic Learning doesn't have that restriction.

Also, my suggestion: Factotum going into Chameleon! Do half of everything, then change your mind and do the other half instead. The only downside is that you don't get the Factotum's big capstone class ability emulation feature dealy. But you make up for it with more 6th level spells, from pretty much any list, and you can emulate some class features anyway.

...Though you will be more MAD than a Monk.

RandomFellow
2008-01-09, 12:43 AM
Well my usual group is starting a new game and that means i have to make a new character. Now im not bad at making characters its just im bad at deciding what to play. Usually im the last one to make there character after seeign what everyone else is playing. The few times i pick without seeing what everyone else is playing the group ends up missing a major component or we have two of the class. the group im playing with is going to have a warlock, cleric that is martial combat oriented and a cleric that is focused on ranged combat with a crossbow.

So any suggestions for race, class, feats etc would be helpful

What you need is a skill monkey capable of shoring up the weak area in arcane. Warlocks are good endurance blasters with a few other nice tricks, but ultimately even with UMD, are not on par with a full Wizard or Sorcerer unless you need that endurance for some odd reason.

Beguiler works to pull that off.
Personally, I'd go with:
Human (with Able Learner&Nymph's Kiss) Rogue 1 / Diviner (Ban: Evoc) 5 / Unseen Seer 10 / <Cap as you like>

(if your allowed to use Practiced Spellcaster to tweak the Ultimate Magus progression)
Human (with Able Learner&Nymph's Kiss) Beguiler 1 / Conjurer (Ban: Illu, Ench) 1 / Human Paragon 3 (advancing Conjurer) / Ultimate Magus 10 / <Cap as you like>

Both will give you the arcane flexibility the group will find helpful while providing a skill monkey with trap finding. =)