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Reinboom
2008-01-06, 07:49 PM
Stats are not equal the same. Charisma is a weak stat, dexterity is easily the most dynamic stat. Everybody enjoys a decent int and con.
For this, I decided to strike, instead of at the classes and stats themselves, the beginning of it all - focusing on the point buy systems and the roll systems; the point buy system getting the largest overhaul, and the rolling a simple quick fix.

The premise is the same as the point buy of the DMG, and is based upon it. Higher stats cost more, lower stats cost less, and you have a number of points to spend on stats. The difference being that certain stats cost different amounts.

The cost of each stat is listed under the table below.
{table="head"]Stat|A|B|C
6 | 0 | 0 | 0
7 | 1 | 1 | 1
8 | 2 | 2 | 2
9 | 4 | 3 | 3
10 | 6 | 4 | 4
11 | 8 | 6 | 5
12 | 10 | 8 | 6
13 | 12 | 10 | 8
14 | 14 | 12 | 10
15 | 18 | 14 | 12
16 | 22 | 18 | 14
17 | 28 | 22 | 18
18 | 34 | 28 | 22[/table]
Where:
A = Dexterity, Constitution
B = Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom
C = Charisma

The difference, in the greater view, isn't that different between stats, but significant enough to allow certain stats to be focused more.

The points you have available is dependent on the type of game.
{table]Old PB|New PB
15|38
22|52
25|58
28|64
32|72[/table]

These values based on ( Old PB * 2 ) + 8 = New PB

=====
Rolling is more of a quick fix issue.
Before rolling, decide a 'low', 'average', and 'high'.
For this example, I shall use 8, 12, and 16.
For each stat less than the low, add 3 points.
For each stat less than the average, but not less than low, add 2 points.
For each stat equal to average, do nothing.
For each stat greater than the average, remove 2 points.
For each stat greater than the high, remove 3 points.

Use these points as the point buy system above.

Another, faster, quick fix:
Everyone gets +1 to their Intelligence, Wisdom, and Strength, and +2 to their Charisma. This can't increase these beyond 18.
Though, you will probably need to adjust your rolling for this.

I put more thought into the point buy system itself, as a strong supporter of point buy. Sorry. :smalltongue:

Critique?

Xefas
2008-01-06, 08:00 PM
I don't see the need to nerf non-spellcasters any more than they already are by punishing them for relying on strength (melee) and dexterity (ranged, though also integral to the survival of any non-heavily armored non-caster).

Maybe you could give an explanation for why Strength is so much better than Charisma?

AmberVael
2008-01-06, 08:09 PM
The first thing I thought when I saw this was "wow, Charisma based classes are going to have a lot more options now."
It certainly puts a new spin on things.

However, it's pretty confusing to me that Strength is so highly rated. Really, the "best" classes have no need for a really good strength score at all, and if you're not intending to be a mundane combat character, you won't need much of it. I'd far rather have a good constitution or wisdom score most of the time.

Strength may be a strong score for certain classes, but Constitution and Wisdom are a good stat overall for ALL classes.

Reinboom
2008-01-06, 08:38 PM
Then how about exchanging Strength and Con?
Like I just edited the post to.

I disagree about the wisdom, as, it's been a dump stat many a time in the past.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-06, 09:24 PM
I often dump wisdom before charisma. because i roll that way.

Rowanomicon
2008-01-06, 09:44 PM
I think Con and Dex should be tier 1 since they are good for everyone.

Tier 2 should be all casting stats since they are really good for those that they are good for.

Str should be the cheapest since it is almost useless for for some classes (including the "best" classes) and even a Str based character with a high Str doesn't compare in power (at least at higher levels) to a caster with a mid ranged casting stat.

In other words having a melee combatant with a 18 Str is not at big a deal as a caster with an 18 casting stat, or even a 16 casting stat for that matter.

Of course this is without taking into account ToB because I don't have it.

Xyk
2008-01-06, 09:54 PM
This is gonna kill rogues. Swashbucklers are now rendered useless. I dont know. I usually roll stats and them place them. I personally dislike point buy despite the perfect balance of characters.

Reinboom
2008-01-06, 10:06 PM
Strength isn't focused on by no str characters either.
The spellcaster argument doesn't hold too much water, since, stats won't fix that. This doesn't benefit, or hurt, wisdom or intelligence based characters either. Nor does it hurt, or help, strength based.

It slightly restricts dexterity a bit, but not much.

Baron Corm
2008-01-06, 10:11 PM
Just because Constitution is useful to all classes doesn't make it as good as Dexterity. It does one thing, and a defensive thing at that, while Dexterity has many offensive and defensive functions. Offense > defense IMO.

A bigger issue is that this whole thing applies differently to different classes, which I think goes against the purpose of it, and I'm not quite sure what it fixes? It essentially just gives more ability points to sorcerers and takes some from rogues. If I'm a rogue doing point buy, I'm still taking that 18.

Nebo_
2008-01-06, 10:11 PM
There was nothing wrong with the normal point buy system. From the look of it, you believe the DMG when it says that charisma isn't worth much and strength is the best stat. The DMG is wrong, you're just making it harder to build certain characters.

StickMan
2008-01-06, 10:14 PM
So the stats that allows you to dodge things is the best and the one that lets you tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up is the worst.... right:smallconfused:

I'm going to have to agree with every one else your seem to be way overvaluing certain stats for what they do.

Rowanomicon
2008-01-06, 10:26 PM
I'm not sure how the argument that casting stats are better than Str doesn't hold much water.

I personally don't think that different stats should cost different amounts, but casting stats are more powerful for those who rely on them than Str is for those who rely on it.

Gælen_Durrandl
2008-01-06, 10:30 PM
So the stats that allows you to dodge things is the best and the one that lets you tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up is the worst.... right:smallconfused:

I'm going to have to agree with every one else your seem to be way overvaluing certain stats for what they do.

Well, you don't just tell the laws of physics to sit down, shut up: you tell other characters--even PCs via Intimidate--to do the same and even tell the object that you don't really have to dodge it.

Rowanomicon
2008-01-06, 10:41 PM
Yes, Cha can be a very powerful stat even without being a Cha-based caster.

Reinboom
2008-01-06, 10:50 PM
The DMG says that? :smallconfused:
Charisma is a dump stat.

Also, this does not take away much away from Dexterity or Constitution, If you want to find how much this changes stat costs... divide it by 2, and minus 1.
Group A costs 16, and raises as fast as the normal PB.
I just sped up the other stats. Obviously, however, this was brought with too much dislike.

And if I sped up just charisma?

RandomFellow
2008-01-06, 11:13 PM
The DMG says that? :smallconfused:
Charisma is a dump stat.

...

As a caster, I usually dump some or all of the list (in this order, unless I need the stat for my build):
Strength
Wisdom
Charisma

Notice where Charisma is? I only dump Charisma when I'm playing a pure int focused wizard. Even then, only if I'm not taking Leadership. I almost always play non-melee casters, which means strength gets dumped first. Unless I'm playing a Wis caster, wisdom gets dumped too since almost all casters get a good Will save.

See where I'm going with this?
If your going to do a tiered based system, whoever has the 'high cost' as a dump stat (or the 'low cost' as the primary stat) wins. Whoever needs to primary the 'high cost' loses.

With your PB, I'd rather play a class that uses charisma heavily (Sorc, Artificer, etc.) and use Leadership to make me even stronger. I'll rapidly (at level 6) overpower the other PCs that adopted any other strategy.

Gælen_Durrandl
2008-01-06, 11:18 PM
And if I sped up just charisma?

Umm, speeding up charisma is one of the problems with your plan. Anyone who feels that Cha is a dump stat has obviously failed to account for such things as the Charisma-based skills--which, when properly applied, nullify any need to dodge you opponent's attack--and the Cha-based casting classes, especially the beguiler. Then there are PrCs like the Mindbender, which allows one character to eventually enslave of otherwise subjugate 6+ PCs and/or NPCs beyond those they can manipulate with their enchantment spells and Charisma skills.


With your PB, I'd rather play a class that uses charisma heavily (Sorc, Artificer, etc.) and use Leadership to make me even stronger. I'll rapidly (at level 6) overpower the other PCs that adopted any other strategy.

Oh, dear sweet Jesus, no. Artificers scare me outright so that's one hell of a counter argument for speeding up Cha.

Then there's the Beguiler/Mindbender I described, give him the Leadership feat and you've got one hell of a character kill. accelerate the rate at which his starting Cha increases and no one will compare.

Nebo_
2008-01-06, 11:23 PM
Different stats have different priorities for different characters. You can't say that charisma is a dump stat when you're playing a sorcerer, nor can you say that dexterity is the best when you're playing a cleric.

JaronK
2008-01-06, 11:41 PM
Yay, let's make the two best skills easier to raise (Diplomacy and Use Magic Device) and make sure that charisma casters (Hi Artificer! Hi Sorcerer!) get boosted while nerfing strength based classes like the overpowered Fighter and CW Samurai! Yay!

No.

JaronK

RandomFellow
2008-01-06, 11:47 PM
...

Oh, dear sweet Jesus, no. Artificers scare me outright so that's one hell of a counter argument for speeding up Cha.

Then there's the Beguiler/Mindbender I described, give him the Leadership feat and you've got one hell of a character kill. accelerate the rate at which his starting Cha increases and no one will compare.

The problem with Mindbender is the CL loss. Thrall and Eternal Charm is good. Just not that good. I'd rather take the Mother Cyst feat and get the same capability (while slightly later) without giving up CL.

EDIT:
Oops, Tumor is a 7th level spell. My bad. They get it sooner than Thrall. It just gives the subject two saves instead of 1. Since you need to get that Cyst in there. But it can't be stopped by Protection from Evil, etc. so it is a toss up whats better. But 5 CL vs. casting 2 spells instead of 1 (and having no limit with the 2 spell version) is a no brainer.

Nebo_
2008-01-07, 12:23 AM
The problem with Mindbender is the CL loss.

What? Mindbender only has one level and it doesn't lose any caster levels.



Yay, let's make the two best skills easier to raise (Diplomacy and Use Magic Device) and make sure that charisma casters (Hi Artificer! Hi Sorcerer!) get boosted while nerfing strength based classes like the overpowered Fighter and CW Samurai! Yay!

JaronK says it better than I did.

RandomFellow
2008-01-07, 12:28 AM
What? Mindbender only has one level and it doesn't lose any caster levels.

...
That is either
A) Sarcasm
B) You didn't read the post I quoted which brought up taking all 10 levels for Thrall, Eternal Charm.

JackMage666
2008-01-07, 12:34 AM
Charisma is a dump stat.

Tell that to a Sorcerer. Or a Bard. Or Marshal. Or Warlock. Or Dragonfire Adept. Or Warmage. Or Dread Necromancer. Or a Social Rogue.

I could probably go on.

Sure, it's a dump stat for some classes, but certainly not all.

Nebo_
2008-01-07, 12:39 AM
That is either
A) Sarcasm
B) You didn't read the post I quoted which brought up taking all 10 levels for Thrall, Eternal Charm.

Bah! That's the trouble with using text. The correct answer is column A.

Kellus
2008-01-07, 12:48 AM
I quite like the idea of valuing ability scores differently. The problem I've always found with Charisma, aside from being ill-defined, is that it's not tied into any integral aspect of characters.

Strength is important for melee attack and damage and carrying capacity. Constitution controls hp and Fort saves. Dexterity is important for AC, initiative, and Reflex saves. Intelligence is important for skill points. Wisdom is important for Will saves, the most deadly kind of save.

All characters are going to want high stats naturally in these, because these things are useful to every character (with the exception of Str for nonmelee or Weapon Finesse characters, although carrying capacity is still based on it). Charisma doesn't govern any statistic or ability for normal classes. Obviously if you have a sorcerer or bard it's a different story, but ideally all the ability scores should be equally valuable to all the classes. Or at least somehow important.

The only thing Charisma brings to the table are its skills. Of course, every other ability score (except Con) also governs skills in addition to their other benefits. Admittedly, Charisma has more unique skills than the other ability scores.

The only two really powerful skills it governs are Diplomacy and Use Magic Device. Diplomacy is badly designed, and this has been acknowledged by many people (including Rich Burlew), who have made changes to it. Use Magic Device is powerful, but only available as a class skill to the rogue and the bard in core.

But the point is that aside from certain skills, Charisma is not important to the average player. Everybody wants more damage, carrying capacity, hp, AC, skill points, and saves. But only a few people want Charisma.

The obvious solution, of course, is to create a statistic common to all characters for Charisma to govern. But in lieu of that, I think valuing them differently in point buy is an excellent idea.

Baron Corm
2008-01-07, 12:54 AM
I might add that another solution that I've been liking recently is cutting 6 stats down to 3:

Body - Strength and Constitution
Dexterity - Dexterity
Mind - Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma

Eh? Anyone?

Gælen_Durrandl
2008-01-07, 01:11 AM
But the point is that aside from certain skills, Charisma is not important to the average player. Everybody wants more damage, carrying capacity, hp, AC, skill points, and saves. But only a few people want Charisma.

Huh? Only a few? of the 11 base classes, 5 are described as having Charisma-based abilities as their signatures:

Bard: everything he does
Cleric: Turn/Rebuke Undead
Paladin: Smite Evil and Lay on Hands
Rogue: Social Rogues and Sleight of Hand Rogues who don't like going to jail
Sorceror: see Bard

Additionally, Barbarians and Fighters benefit from having good Intimidate checks as there are feats which are based on the skill and Druids and Rangers benefit with regards to Handle Animal and Wild Empathy.

The reason "only a few people want Charisma" is that "only a few people" seem to realize its versatility and value to the RP portion of the game.

Fiery Diamond
2008-01-07, 01:23 AM
I'm going to have to say -

no.

Firstly, Cha is quite possibly the most useful non-combat stat. D&D is not just combat. Secondly, different characters (not just different classes- different archetypes within the same class as well) have different focuses on stats. Different players have different preferences. I usually dump Con. Then again, I don't usually have any negative modifiers- I always roll for stats, and get fairly lucky. Thirdly, just...no.

-Fiery Diamond

Magnor Criol
2008-01-07, 01:36 AM
I might add that another solution that I've been liking recently is cutting 6 stats down to 3:

Body - Strength and Constitution
Dexterity - Dexterity
Mind - Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma

Eh? Anyone?

I don't know how this'd rub off mechanically, but thematically it's sorta weak.

"Body" and "Mind" are both general concept-level terms. One usually refers to all physical aspects of a person, while the other refers to anything non-physical (interchangeable words are 'soul' and sometimes 'heart'). To include 'body', 'mind', and 'dexterity' is a bit....awkward.

It also doesn't really hold up to much comparison with archetypes. What's a trait archetype that's very near and dear to many RPGers? The smart but socially inept nerd. To group Int and Cha together like that, though, means that you can't be both smart and socially inept (unless, of course, you represent the social aspects with a different mechanic - which would be fine if you did, really.)

JaronK
2008-01-07, 01:41 AM
As a better solution, I've tried making all casters spell DCs be based off charisma, which makes a lot of sense (it is, after all, the stat that's supposed to represent your mental ability to affect the world around you). It works reasonably.

JaronK

Kellus
2008-01-07, 01:46 AM
Huh? Only a few? of the 11 base classes, 5 are described as having Charisma-based abilities as their signatures:

Bard: everything he does
Cleric: Turn/Rebuke Undead
Paladin: Smite Evil and Lay on Hands
Rogue: Social Rogues and Sleight of Hand Rogues who don't like going to jail
Sorceror: see Bard

Additionally, Barbarians and Fighters benefit from having good Intimidate checks as there are feats which are based on the skill and Druids and Rangers benefit with regards to Handle Animal and Wild Empathy.

The reason "only a few people want Charisma" is that "only a few people" seem to realize its versatility and value to the RP portion of the game.

The bard and sorcerer both clearly depend on Charisma. Turning and rebuking does depend on it for a cleric, but it's such a cumbersome mechanic as it stands and such a miniscule aspect of a cleric's repertoire of abilities that it hardly bears mentioning. Paladins do depend on Cha, and rogues who choose to specialize in social skills also use it; although this is more to do with the problems inherent in the Diplomacy (and to a lesser degree Bluff) skill than with Charisma as an ability score.

The problem with using Wild Empathy to justify the ability is that such a check is very rarely made and hardly ever justifies points spent in Cha to gain a small bonus on this one ability of the character.

But even taking your tally of 5 out of 11 core classes, that's still less than half the core classes that care about the ability score. Every character not of that class has no mechanical reason to have a good score in it. That's about 6 classes less than, say, Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, or Intelligence, just to name a few. Everybody cares about AC, saves, skill points, and the like.

As for the role-playing portions of the game, Charisma is important for certain skills, which are available to certain characters. Namely the rogue or bard. Which are in the tally of 5 classes that use the ability score. Everybody else is buying social skills at half ranks, and it's never worth it. Investing in Intelligence for skills generally pays off better than investing in Charisma, since Int allows you a wider range of skills. Investing in Charisma for skills if you're not a bard or a rogue seems kind of pointless, since you're never going to be great at them with cross-class ranks.

Ideally an ability score should be important to every character. Charisma is valuable to a few classes, and completely worthless to everybody else. For a fighter, barbarian, druid, ranger, monk, or wizard (and some rogues), there's realistically no mechanical reason to have a high Charisma. Clerics also find the ability of limited use, as turning is... Not that great, and ridiculously cumbersome to boot.

Charisma may have some uses for some characters, but it's horridly underpowered with most characters compared to the other ability scores.

JaronK
2008-01-07, 01:50 AM
Turning and rebuking does depend on it for a cleric, but it's such a cumbersome mechanic as it stands and such a miniscule aspect of a cleric's repertoire of abilities that it hardly bears mentioning.

Four words: Divine Metamagic Persistant Spell. That very much bears mentioning, and goes off charisma.


and rogues who choose to specialize in social skills also use it; although this is more to do with the problems inherent in the Diplomacy (and to a lesser degree Bluff) skill than with Charisma as an ability score.

*cough* UMD *cough*


The problem with using Wild Empathy to justify the ability is that such a check is very rarely made and hardly ever justifies points spent in Cha to gain a small bonus on this one ability of the character.

Now that I'll agree with, but since Druids have no use for Str or Dex at all, they often do have a reasonable charisma.

JaronK

Nebo_
2008-01-07, 02:04 AM
I can agree that Charisma isn't valuable to everyone, but in the same vein of argument, neither is strength. Making it easier for those classes that do need it to have a higher score isn't really fixing anything.

Baron Corm
2008-01-07, 02:51 AM
It also doesn't really hold up to much comparison with archetypes. What's a trait archetype that's very near and dear to many RPGers? The smart but socially inept nerd. To group Int and Cha together like that, though, means that you can't be both smart and socially inept (unless, of course, you represent the social aspects with a different mechanic - which would be fine if you did, really.)

I don't think I've met someone who was both smart and socially inept. I think that people who have a higher IQ than those around them find it difficult to have conversations with them, but put the lower IQ person around more higher IQ people and the same would be true, and probably to a greater degree.

I've been thinking lately that Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma were all the same thing. When you call someone "smart", you really are referring to all three ability scores. I grouped them to be realistically sound as well as mechanically. I'm no psychologist, though.

As for Body, Strength and Constitution are kind of the same thing too. It's a measure of physical fitness. You couldn't improve one without improving the other. I'm no fitness expert either though :smalltongue:

A final interesting note on Dexterity. A couple days ago something fell from a cabinet I was looking through. I don't remember if I caught it or not, but I remember thinking that I used Wisdom to react to it. Reflexes are really more perception than any sort of... manual dexterity. Hitting the right notes on a piano are more about mental acuity than anything physical. The thing I'm trying to say is maybe Dexterity doesn't even exist as we know it, though lumping it into Mind also would make the Mind trait very overpowered, even though that's the way it is in real life :smallwink:

JaronK
2008-01-07, 02:55 AM
I don't think I've met someone who was both smart and socially inept. I think that people who have a higher IQ than those around them find it difficult to have conversations with them, but put the lower IQ person around more higher IQ people and the same would be true, and probably to a greater degree.

Pfft. I've met plenty of smart socially inept types. And I can talk to a wide variety of IQ ranges without problems.


I've been thinking lately that Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma were all the same thing. When you call someone "smart", you really are referring to all three ability scores. I grouped them to be realistically sound as well as mechanically. I'm no psychologist, though.

Smart can mean many things. Math smarts and interpersonal skills are hardly related (though math and music skills being linked is another story).

As for Body, Strength and Constitution are kind of the same thing too. It's a measure of physical fitness. You couldn't improve one without improving the other. [/QUOTE]

Steroids increase body strength, but make you far more likely to break bones and make you more susceptable to diseases. I think that's a pretty straight forward strength increase with a con decrease.

JaronK

Gælen_Durrandl
2008-01-07, 03:14 AM
But even taking your tally of 5 out of 11 core classes, that's still less than half the core classes that care about the ability score. Every character not of that class has no mechanical reason to have a good score in it. That's about 6 classes less than, say, Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, or Intelligence, just to name a few. Everybody cares about AC, saves, skill points, and the like.

OK, one: Con-heavy characters don't need Wisdom for their Will saves unless they're forbidden access to Steadfast Determination, so most Fighters and Barbarians are out, there, but then they don't really matter too much in a discussion of mental ability scores. But then, as soon as we focus on any one ability, we find that Dexterity is the only one that is almost universally important--the only people who don't want it simply because it serves no good purpose are Heavy Armor users.

Two: way, way, way too many people try to be everything to everyone in this game. When you make a character, you need to think UNIX--do one thing and do it well. There for your priorities should be:

1.) What you do, whether it be dealing damage, taking hits, healing, spec-ops/recon, control-of-flow, or support.

2.) Not dying too quickly to be healed.

3.) Making yourself useful outside your primary frame of operation.

So unless your purpose is to know everything, spec-ops/recon, or control-of-flow by way of being a wizard, Int is a tertiary concern for what, all but four core classes.

As far as staying alive, there are four philosophies on that: be agile and not get hit, wear heavy armor and not got hit, have HP and get hit but don't feel it, and don't get in a position where you could be hit.

Really, only Bards even need to aspire to be good at all things, and even that only requires something just above mediocrity in all things not related to their music to give them something to do when music is inappropriate.

Baron Corm
2008-01-07, 03:17 AM
Pfft. I've met plenty of smart socially inept types. And I can talk to a wide variety of IQ ranges without problems.

Agree to disagree, won't belabor it.


Math smarts and interpersonal skills are hardly related (though math and music skills being linked is another story).

Math smarts = ability to memorize formulas? Hardly comes into play in DND, in any event. I believe memorization is covered by some sort of Intelligence check, but isn't really related to the main Intelligence function of... being able to both climb and jump... hey why does Intelligence govern skill points anyway?

Perhaps memory/math smarts could be made a separate skill. I think that would make sense. The ability modifier would probably be Mind though :smalltongue:

Interpersonal skills = making other people like you? Not being shy? Being sharp of tongue/wit? The first and last I believe to be a matter of intelligence (though we're agreeing to disagree on the first), and the second merely personality.

Some definitions of your own would be nice if these are incorrect.


Steroids increase body strength, but make you far more likely to break bones and make you more susceptable to diseases. I think that's a pretty straight forward strength increase with a con decrease.

Don't know anything about the matter so I can't really comment. But I will.

Hit points are kind of a DND exclusive thing; getting run through by a sword will kill a human being. So Constitution is kind of a game concept as is. Taking steroids could simply increase your Body but decrease your Fortitude save and hit points. It would be one of the few things to do so, I think. I don't think Strength + Constitution = Body should be too much of a realism problem.

Reinboom
2008-01-07, 03:22 AM
I've known someone who was incredibly math smart, logical, and calculative, but had almost no other ability, he was good at his thing.
He clearly didn't get multiple skill points per level.

I've met people who could run for a very long time, and hold their breath for amazing periods of time as well.
Yet.. have difficulty getting over sickness, and are a bit brittle.
They also can't concentrate - except when running - worth anything.

People who were extremely charismatic in the right groups, and the complete opposite in every other group.

Why not split these as well?
:smalltongue:

Now, for Charisma...
So, it seems like all the problem issues with it, or heavy emphasis for classes have been "near max it, or drop it". I've very very rarely seen moderate range charisma.

What are the clear benefits of throwing in a couple extra ranks in charisma because it makes sense? Every other stat completely overshadows it.

Helgraf
2008-01-07, 03:27 AM
I might add that another solution that I've been liking recently is cutting 6 stats down to 3:

Body - Strength and Constitution
Dexterity - Dexterity
Mind - Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma

Eh? Anyone?

I've used a slightly different distillation of that idea when I was doing an ultima conversion - but I've changed the principal names used to more mechanically apt ones

Brawn (Ultima Strength) : Strength & Constitution
Grace (Ultima Dexterity) : Dexterity & Charisma
Wit (Ultima Intelligence) : Intelligence & Wisdom

Of course, if you want to 'more realistically model your skills', you could always play Rolemaster - where every skill had between one and three stats associated with it, and you averaged them together as appropriate to determine your stat-related bonus to the skill.

Most melee skills (translating to use D&D's six stats in place of Rolemaster's 10+), for instance, were Strength Strength Dexterity, so you'd add twice your strength bonus to your dexterity bonus and divide by 3 to determine your stat bonus.

I can't recall if Riding was considered Dex/Wis or Dex/Dex/Wis, off the top of my head.

Helgraf
2008-01-07, 03:41 AM
What are the clear benefits of throwing in a couple extra ranks in charisma because it makes sense? Every other stat completely overshadows it.

System as written:
1. Diplomacy. With Diplomacy as written, why on earth would you need a Strength score. At low levels, bring a mule or donkey along. At high levels, use Bags of Holding/Portable Holes, and convert your wealth into easy to carry gems/minor magic items et cetera with no appreciable weight. Thus, Charisma is better than Strength

2. Use Magic Device - _especially if it's cross class_ - every extra +1 you get makes those checks that much more workable. This skill means having a backup cleric when your cleric gets hosed. Or a backup sorceror when yours gets thumped. It's a jack of trades skill that can and will save you considerable grief in the long run if used and supported properly.

3. Leadership bonus for cohorts & followers. Who needs to avoid the attack or endure it when you can throw money/people/resources at it? Charisma beats all physical stats with this one.

4. Arcane Spontaneous Spellcasters (Sorc, Bard, Beguiler - especially the Beguiler who does double duty as a Cha-skill person).

5. Rollplaying Roleplaying. Sometimes a suitable check doesn't directly tie to a specific Charisma-based skill, and that base stat becomes a handy tool for the DM to do a spot-reaction check to determine whom NPC X would approach in the party.

6. Because frankly, if you have Good Will saves, the bonus to Will saves from Wisdom is often immaterial, but the social benefits of the high Charisma still pay off. Also, for many of the Good Will save classes, they're not putting ranks in Spot & Listen because they're not getting enough ranks to begin with, so the 'benefit' of the high Wisdom there is also undermined. There's a reason several people have pointed out that they'd rather use Wis for a dump stat than Charisma if they're not playing a Wis-based caster/manifester, after all. Charisma beats Wisdom.

So really, Intelligence is worth more than Charisma since it gives you more skill points. Dex & Con are about equivalent, and Str & Wis sit in the toilet.

For non-divine casters
Apex : Int
Mid-Rank: Cha, Dex & Con
Bottom: Str & Wis

JaronK
2008-01-07, 03:43 AM
4. Arcane Spontaneous Spellcasters (Sorc, Bard, Beguiler - especially the Beguiler who does double duty as a Cha-skill person).

You know Beguilers are Int based, right?

JaronK

JackMage666
2008-01-07, 03:47 AM
Not to mention Force of Personality is a rather common feat for things like Sorcerers who dump Wis. It's only in the Complete Adventurer, which is a rather common book.

Reinboom
2008-01-07, 03:52 AM
When I said a couple extra ranks, I meant, adjusting your Charisma up to 10 from 8. Or up to 12 from 8.
Everything but Leadership requires focus in that. Leadership... is a very special case of a feat.

Nebo_
2008-01-07, 03:59 AM
What are the clear benefits of throwing in a couple extra ranks in charisma because it makes sense? Every other stat completely overshadows it.

Doesn't matter. When you do need it, it's too easy to pump.

RandomFellow
2008-01-07, 11:05 AM
When I said a couple extra ranks, I meant, adjusting your Charisma up to 10 from 8. Or up to 12 from 8.
Everything but Leadership requires focus in that. Leadership... is a very special case of a feat.

I only drop my Cha to 8 when I've got no other choice.

StickMan
2008-01-07, 11:18 AM
When I said a couple extra ranks, I meant, adjusting your Charisma up to 10 from 8. Or up to 12 from 8.
Everything but Leadership requires focus in that. Leadership... is a very special case of a feat.

I tend to have a Charisma score of about 12-14 unless I'm playing a character that needs more. High charisma is always useful for diplomacy and the like. Also nice if you want to play a character who is a leader.

Necromas
2008-01-07, 11:20 AM
I don't like it, because each character will value the stats differently for themselves. Even the racial stat bonuses can throw this off.

Just about all casters get a boost from this, especially charisma based ones like sorcerers, or ones with MAD like favoured souls and bards.

Combat rogues, archers, and two weapon fighters take a big hit from this, because dexterity and constitution are very important stats for them.

Tanks likewise take a blow from the constitution penalty.

Races that boost dex and/or con become stronger, as do ones that penalize charisma, while the reverse is also true.

Even feats that require high stats, like the two weapon fighting chain are affected, as are stat boosting magic items.

All in all, I'd say changing the cost of the attributes is not the way to go about trying to balance anything, because you're either buffing or nerfing every character almost at random based on what attributes they are built around using. If you want to buff casters, do something about the spellcasting system, if you want to buff charisma based skills, do something about the skill system, etc....

JackMage666
2008-01-07, 11:22 AM
Here's an idea - Test this in game.

I hypothesize that more players will play Sorcerers than Wizards, because they'll get higher casting stats. Less players will play the traditional Sneaky Sneaky Rogue, because it's very costly for them to play. Fighters may be played more often than Rogues, though they'll all be Heavy Armor fighters (since they can't afford the good Dex). Rangers and Barbarians will be nearly unplayable, as they'll be trying to balance Dex, Con, and Str with the system (Rangers can fall back on Ranged, and skip Str for the most part, but Barbarians can't).

Wizards and Clerics will be considerable easier to play than a Rogue or Fighter. Sorcerers the easiest to play. Bards still somewhere in the middle, because, well, they're Bards.

Playtest it, is all I'm sayin'.