Elder Scrolls: Morrowind vs. Oblivion

[SilentNight]

I was just wondering which of the two games people preferred and for what reasons. For example, my friend hates the Oblivion level based foes system while I consider it a blessing and a curse. Personally i have to go with Morrowind but that may just be because I've played it more.
Please post.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Having played both, I really can't say one is better than the other. The level based foe system never really bothered me because I was a dirty, rotten cheater and had god mode on pretty much throughout the game. I liked how in Oblivion you could just get a house, whereas in Morrowind I mostly used the house of that one guy I killed in an early quest as a place to rest and store loot until I got a bigger house from House Hlaalu. I also like that the skills in Oblivion were a lot more streamlined. Plot-wise, both are pretty decent, with plenty of intrigue, combat and rubbing shoulders with gods and kings alike. All in all, I really couldn't choose between the two if I had to. Both are stellar games.

[Demented]

I liked how in Oblivion you could just get a house, whereas in Morrowind I mostly used the house of that one guy I killed in an early quest as a place to rest and store loot until I got a bigger house from House Hlaalu.

I played a little of Morrowind because it came packaged with a video card. (Which card it was I'm unsure of.) I just left all my junk lying around outside the fighter's guild in Balmora, and slept anywhere in the wilderness that seemed convenient. Nobody seemed to be interested in stealing my relatively expensive dwemer artifacts... (Though objects had a tendency to disappear from my inventory, while I was wearing them no less.)

[Nebo_]

Both games were a great idea, but poorly executed. Morrowind was too easy after a certain level and in Oblivion you could be the most epic hero that ever roamed the land and the guards would still be more powerful than you. The leveling system was just awful (Get better at jumping and the enemies get better at fighting, wtf?) So if I had to choose, I'd say that they both lose.

[SilentNight]

I've been there with the too powerful thing. My first character was a dark elf thief who eventually could kill a room full of Ordinators and still remain undetected. Morrowind did have some high-level mods but I never was able to download them.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

But that's part of the draw, isn't it? I mean, by the end of the game, you're the reincarnation of the guy who singlehandedly united the Dunmer people, and you've defeated not one, not two, but THREE godlike beings in single combat. Why SHOULDN'T you be able to kill a whole room full of Ordinators undetected?!

[SilentNight]

The thing is I didn't do any of the three plots with that guy. My last character though was a completely different matter. heh.

[JackMage666]

Gameplay wise, I go with Oblivion.
Story wise, I go for Morrowind.

Morrowind's story was just so much more complex. I mean, you're this specifically chosen guy who unites all the foreign tribes, kills false gods, and stuff like that. At the same time, you're working with Daedric princes, becoming a master of several guilds, a top assassin, and so on.

Oblivion, you're just kinda there, as a soldier, doing tasks to eventually other people can do the big stuff. The ending of the main quest was really depressing for me, as it was so simple.

Morrowinds gameplay was kinda eh though. Nothing really stood out about it.

I loved that enemies leveled up with you in Oblivion, because then you were nearly always challenged. The fact that ruins and such would restock means you could treasure hunt for days without having to go into the storyline. The quests were more varied, and overall more fun, than those of Morrowind (this is mainly due to advancing technology.)

If you throw in Shivering Isles, though, Oblivion, hands down. Shivering Isles was absolutely AWESOME.

[ImperialGolem]

In Oblivion, the combat is incredibly fun. In a battle against a boss, it can become crazy. The levelled system isn't great, but it can be fun at times.

In Morrowind, the story/lore takes the cake. It has problems as well, however. Stealth is weak, it is impossible to be a pure mage, and combat just isn't nearly as fun as Oblivion.

I prefer Oblivion, but I love both games.

[Alleine]

I like both pretty much equally, though I don't know if I can go back to the horrendous load times of Morrowind after having tasted the sweet smoothness(in comparison) of Oblivion.
The problem I find with Oblivion is the fact that at higher levels when you need not fear death because you are well equipped to deal with it, it simply becomes a chore to kill creatures because they refuse to die through sheer mass of health. Oblivion gains favor with the ability to fast travel though.

I only miss one thing about Morrowind: the massive cheese levels that could be accomplished with spells, alchemy, and enchanting. Hello to leaping across the continent in three hops, raining doom upon towns from the air, and permanent everything thanks to soul trap.


Overall I must say Morrowind wins for cheese levels, but Oblivion was better executed as a whole, and added too many shiny features for me to consider it being worse.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Gameplay wise, I go with Oblivion.
Story wise, I go for Morrowind.

Morrowind's story was just so much more complex. I mean, you're this specifically chosen guy who unites all the foreign tribes, kills false gods, and stuff like that. At the same time, you're working with Daedric princes, becoming a master of several guilds, a top assassin, and so on.

Oblivion, you're just kinda there, as a soldier, doing tasks to eventually other people can do the big stuff. The ending of the main quest was really depressing for me, as it was so simple.

Morrowinds gameplay was kinda eh though. Nothing really stood out about it.

I loved that enemies leveled up with you in Oblivion, because then you were nearly always challenged. The fact that ruins and such would restock means you could treasure hunt for days without having to go into the storyline. The quests were more varied, and overall more fun, than those of Morrowind (this is mainly due to advancing technology.)

If you throw in Shivering Isles, though, Oblivion, hands down. Shivering Isles was absolutely AWESOME.

I couldn't have said it better myself, though I wasn't depressed by the main quest's ending. Guess I was still feeling the adrenaline rush from watching Akatosh bite Mehrunes Dagon in the neck! Speaking of which, I saved the Main Quest for after I had completed all the factions and bonus quests. Anyone else saved the epic ending for last?

[Malec2b]

Well, I think that Morrowind has a more interesting world, but it just had horrible combat. I never got very far in that game because I always got sick of the combat. Oblivion was a lot more fun in that sense, but had a less interesting game world. I would say that Oblivion is the better game. I've probably logged over 70 hours in it.

[SilentNight]

I only miss one thing about Morrowind: the massive cheese levels that could be accomplished with spells, alchemy, and enchanting. Hello to leaping across the continent in three hops, raining doom upon towns from the air, and permanent everything thanks to soul trap.



Amen to that brother. Can you usay 105% sanctuary? I actually hated the fast travel in Oblivion. Sure it was handy but the nyou miss out on extra goodies from traveling. They should have just kept the giant fleas and made the travel network bigger.

[factotum]

I think they both have serious flaws, although Morrowind is the better game--it actually puts sensible limits on what you can do, e.g. you can't be the Lord High Mucky-Muck of the Mage's Guild without being able to cast a spell! That just makes it feel a lot more real. In Oblivion, not only can you be Lord High Everything at level 1, but, as someone earlier pointed out, you can be the most superpowered hero who ever walked the earth and simple town guards will STILL kick your arse! Also, Oblivion was very disappointing in terms of the supposed revolutionary AI, and even simple things like real-time shadows being removed before the game's release felt like a kick in the teeth considering how heavily that feature was shown off in the previews.

As far as being overpowered is concerned, what BethSoft need to do is remove the most obviously broken abilities. Having 100% Chameleon means you can never be attacked by any monster, ever, which makes fights something of a cakewalk, and it's not like having any LESS than 100% offers much benefit at all.

[Arang]

In my opinion Morrowind was a worse game than Oblivion. Maybe it's because I never got an overview, so I never really knew where I was or what I was doing. Really, just finding people's houses was damn near impossible, because they all looked the same, there was no city map, the world map was shoddy at best, and there was no fast travel. There may have been lots of interesting characters and dialogue and all sorts of wonderful things to experience, but I never knew because I was too busy trudging across somewhere brown and/or gray.

[factotum]

and there was no fast travel.

You mean, other than Silt Striders, boats, propylon indexes, Divine/Almsivi Intervention spells and that other teleport spell whose name I forget? Yeah, no fast travel at all... :smallamused:

[Hermit]

I tend to play both Morrowind and Oblivion fairly extensively modded. But I think I tend to opf for Morrowind being the better overall game. In terms of the gameplay Oblivion's combat is far superior, and the RAI is a nice touch which brings the the towns to life more. That said I prefer Morrowind's less generic high fantasy setting, the Dwemer ruins in particular are ace. And with the cities and whatnot all in the gameworld it all feels more persistant. Also MOrrowind tends to have a much better sense of achievement in the levelling process. I remember entering a tomb at about level 2 first time I played the game and then fleeing in terror from the undead inside. Coming back a few levels later to wipe the floor with them was brilliant.
My personal thoughts are that if they could find a nice middle ground between Oblivion and Morrowind for TES V then it'd be awesome. And they need to get some more books and lore written. One of the most disappointing things about Oblivion was that most of the books were just carbon copies from Morrowind (Including a copy of the Real Barenziah which has been censored by the Temple of Morrowind. That's some pretty hefty influence they've got there :p)

[Arang]

You mean, other than Silt Striders, boats, propylon indexes, Divine/Almsivi Intervention spells and that other teleport spell whose name I forget? Yeah, no fast travel at all... :smallamused:

Fine, there is no way to go anywhere but cities where there is anything going on except for maybe running for twenty minutes to get where you're going.

[Morty]

and there was no fast travel.

Funny thing here, I consider it an advantage of Morrowind.
Anyway, Morrowind is definetly better than Oblivion. It's got better story, better guilds(with an exception of Thieves' Guild), better NPCs, better world and is overall more entertaining and interesting. In Morrowind, I could always find myself something to do, and if I decided to just roam Vvanderfell freely, I could always find something interesting. In Oblivion, I'm guaranteed to find yet another cave or ruins with level-scaled monsters and loot and nothing else. Main Quest in Oblivion sucked big time, while in Morrowind it was fairly good.
Of course, Oblivion's got few advantages over Morrowind, namely fighting, magic and Thieves' Guild. Fighting in Oblivion is better than this in Morrowind, because of not so stiff animation and better graphics overall. Magic is better in Oblivion because it's possible to play a mage in it as a newbie, while in Morrowind it was a torture. Though it's still hard to reliably advance in schools other than Destruction. Finally, Thieves' Guild in Oblivion is vastly better, as it actually makes sense, which can't be said about the same guild in Morrowind(shame that other guilds are worse than in Morrowind). But the overall gameplay is better in Morrowind. I played Morrowind few times, and each time I had fun. Oblivion bored me after two weeks.

[Arang]

Funny thing here, I consider it an advantage of Morrowind.

How can the ability to play the game instead of running around be a bad thing? If you wanted to go explore, you did. If you didn't want to fight bandits or take a look at the landscape, you didn't. In Morrowind, there was a quest that took me five minutes, but even by the shortest route, using two teleports and a boat to get as close as I could it was still something like an hour of walking, swimming and fighting rats each way.

[Morty]

How can the ability to play the game instead of running around be a bad thing? If you wanted to go explore, you did. If you didn't want to fight bandits or take a look at the landscape, you didn't. In Morrowind, there was a quest that took me five minutes, but even by the shortest route, using two teleports and a boat to get as close as I could it was still something like an hour of walking, swimming and fighting rats each way.

In Morrowind, I could use teleports, boats, spells and those giant beetles I can't remember english name of. But unlike Oblivion, it makes sense, costs money and is logical, while in Oblivion I can instantly jump from place to place for free. It's just plain stupid and doesn't make any semblance of sense. Also, I don't think it's a bad thing to walk- what's the point of creating open, free-form game if I just click myself from place to place?
It reminds me of something I found strange in Oblivion- what's the point of of having horses in game if you just Fast Travel through larger distances and on shorter ones it's not worth the effort to use horse since you can't fight from it?

[Freelance Henchman]

It reminds me of something I found strange in Oblivion- what's the point of of having horses in game if you just Fast Travel through larger distances and on shorter ones it's not worth the effort to use horse since you can't fight from it?

Oblivion had a massive case of Consolitis. They very obviously dumbed a lot of things down because it had to be playable and enjoyable on the Xbox 360 without a keyboard and mouse. This includes giving at least the option to instantly go somewhere since some players might not be interested in the travelling (admittedly I couldnt be bothered to walk sometimes either and just fasttraveled as well) and simply want to experience the story. Thing is, YOU DONT HAVE TO USE IT, but I'm glad it's there.

[TamerBill]

there was no city map

Say what? You mean you didn't know how to switch between world map and local map? That would get you rather lost.

[Neftren]

Having played both, I really can't say one is better than the other. The level based foe system never really bothered me because I was a dirty, rotten cheater and had god mode on pretty much throughout the game. I liked how in Oblivion you could just get a house, whereas in Morrowind I mostly used the house of that one guy I killed in an early quest as a place to rest and store loot until I got a bigger house from House Hlaalu. I also like that the skills in Oblivion were a lot more streamlined. Plot-wise, both are pretty decent, with plenty of intrigue, combat and rubbing shoulders with gods and kings alike. All in all, I really couldn't choose between the two if I had to. Both are stellar games.

You do know that the great houses build a stronghold for you? I managed to become leader of two houses through a little glitch... :D. I liked Morrowind's Plot line more... Oblivion also was very taxing on my CPU.

[Theodoriph]

In Morrowind, I could use teleports, boats, spells and those giant beetles I can't remember english name of. But unlike Oblivion, it makes sense, costs money and is logical, while in Oblivion I can instantly jump from place to place for free. It's just plain stupid and doesn't make any semblance of sense. Also, I don't think it's a bad thing to walk- what's the point of creating open, free-form game if I just click myself from place to place?
It reminds me of something I found strange in Oblivion- what's the point of of having horses in game if you just Fast Travel through larger distances and on shorter ones it's not worth the effort to use horse since you can't fight from it?


Actually, you don't "jump" from place to place for free. You run there. It just happens instantly and there are no beasties in the way. But if you noticed, the time of day changes and depending on how far you're going, spells you have on you may wear off.

So the computer just computes how long it would take you to run there, and you appear there with the appropriate amount of time having passed. :smalltongue: A small distinction, but I thought it would be important to note that you're not just apparating (that would make no sense =D).


Also, in Morrowind you had to memorize illogical and complicated routes to get from one place to another. It was quite irritating at times =)


I'm surprised noone's mentioned the traps and the stealth system =D

[Morty]

Actually, you don't "jump" from place to place for free. You run there. It just happens instantly and there are no beasties in the way. But if you noticed, the time of day changes and depending on how far you're going, spells you have on you may wear off.

So the computer just computes how long it would take you to run there, and you appear there with the appropriate amount of time having passed. :smalltongue: A small distinction, but I thought it would be important to note that you're not just apparating (that would make no sense =D).

Yes you are. Yeah, some time passes, great, but it doesn't change the fact that it distinctly feels that a character just hops from place to place.
Also, there's no reason not to use Fast Travel, as there's not much in Oblivion to explore.


Also, in Morrowind you had to memorize illogical and complicated routes to get from one place to another. It was quite irritating at times =)

:smallconfused: What's so illogical about it? If you can't get everywhere from one town, that's actually, you know, logical, as opposed to Fast Travel. And complicated? From one town you can get to four other ones. Does everything need to be handed on a platter?


I'm surprised noone's mentioned the traps and the stealth system =D

Or right, stealth is another advantage Oblivion's got over Morrowind. But I don't see how traps come here.

[Arang]

Yes you are. Yeah, some time passes, great, but it doesn't change the fact that it distinctly feels that a character just hops from place to place.
Also, there's no reason not to use Fast Travel, as there's not much in Oblivion to explore.


Egads, I cannot believe I am having this discussion again.

How is the way your character walks from place to place any different from the way the silt striders and boats jumped from place to place? The teleports, sure, but I've never heard anyone complain that the immersion was broken because they didn't get to sit through half an hour of silt striders, striding silt, every time they wanted to go and drop their loot at Creeper's.

The thing about where each strider/boat/teleport went was that it was needlessly complicated. Which sounds best to you: teleporting from Vivec to Balmora, or teleporting all over Vvardenfell because you have no idea which teleports go where and nobody is capable of telling you which teleports go where?

Regarding the local map: yes, I did find it, and no, it was never any help for finding houses. Cue five-minute searches for nondescript brown hut #259.

[Theodoriph]

Yes you are. Yeah, some time passes, great, but it doesn't change the fact that it distinctly feels that a character just hops from place to place.
Also, there's no reason not to use Fast Travel, as there's not much in Oblivion to explore.



:smallconfused: What's so illogical about it? If you can't get everywhere from one town, that's actually, you know, logical, as opposed to Fast Travel. And complicated? From one town you can get to four other ones. Does everything need to be handed on a platter?



Or right, stealth is another advantage Oblivion's got over Morrowind. But I don't see how traps come here.


It's illogical because you can be close to a city, but none of the routes take you there. You'd actually have to travel further away from the city in order to find a way to get there...which makes absolutely no sense. It'd be like having to travel to St John's from Ottawa in order to catch a bus to Toronto. It was inherently stupid, counter-intuitive, and made no sense. I mean really...no one does business with their neighbours???


That and the fact that any reasonable transportation system would allow you to transfer :smalltongue: So in all honesty, you should have had the option to travel to any city...no need to roleplay the transfer.

The traps in Oblivion give the dungeon crawls a much better atmosphere. It's a pity the traps didn't deal more damage as you levelled up, but maybe next time.

Might I also add the diversity of creatures in Oblivion was much better. Cliff Racers got annoying after a while. All hail the hero of Morrowind who cleansed the land of Cliff Racer. Too bad he couldn't do it before I'd actually played Morrrowind.

I would also like to submit the quest arrows in Oblivion. No more randomly wandering around a map location in Morrowind looking for a quest character, only to later find he had wandered into in a different location. It was bad enough when you were told what area they were in and had to search it...but having them wander into an area where they shouldn't have been as per quest instructions....aggravating :smallfurious:



"Yes you are. Yeah, some time passes, great, but it doesn't change the fact that it distinctly feels that a character just hops from place to place.
Also, there's no reason not to use Fast Travel, as there's not much in Oblivion to explore."

Nothing is forcing you to use it. You can run if you want. Like you said, there's not much to explore...so running wouldn't be too taxing for you. It's an optional gameplay mechanic for those who have busier lives and don't want to spend hours getting back and forth as per Morrowind. It's also more realistic.

[Telok]

Morrowind required more thought and cunning. The skills, quests, and magic have all been dumbed down in Oblivion. The dungeons are all much simpler and less interesting. Very linear design that leads to being able to predict what's going to be in particular areas because the last three dungeons were very very similar. That and the paper map that shipped with Morrowind was actually useful. You could find places on the map based on the directions that the NPCs gave you.

There was a sense of wonder with Morrowind that is lacking in Oblivion. The huge volcano and lava flows, the terrible ash storms, the Ghost Fence and that bloody asteroid hanging over the High Fane in Vivec. Then you found out what the Ordinators used that rock for, and it was both logical and impressive. And finally you went up in it... and got lost. You can't get lost in Oblivion, anywhere. Oblivion just isn't big or intricate enough to get lost in. I always loved the Telvanni towers too, if you weren't mage enough to get in to talk to the lord then you could just sit outside in the rain, and that was your problem.

On the other hand there are a number of good bits to Oblivion too. The AI is better if it can get into melee combat with you, but if it can't melee you then it's worse because it just runs in little circles and gets shot. At least in Morrowind if they couldn't get to you and were being hurt they would run away. The life patterns in the towns is nice, as is the physics. I enjoy taking a small AOE damage spell and throwing rocks and logs from traps at enemies. Sadly the whole "leveled enemies" sweeps through the game like a bad day of flatulent coworkers. Unfortunately magic is even more borked in Oblivion if you know what you're doing. I could win the game with 50 Destruction, 50 Illusion, 8 spells, and huge piles of magika potions. Plus the Archmage of Cyrodill is a weenie who can't even master a simple levitation spell.

Happily many of the things with Oblivion are fixed with mods. Obscuros Oblivion Overhaul turned the first set of mage guild quests from cakewalks into something where a bandit leader was a real threat to a second level caster.

Both are enjoyable, but it says something that the first Morrowind mods I loaded or wrote were additional content while the first Oblivion mods I looked for were bug fixes.

[SilentNight]

Egads, I cannot believe I am having this discussion again.

How is the way your character walks from place to place any different from the way the silt striders and boats jumped from place to place? The teleports, sure, but I've never heard anyone complain that the immersion was broken because they didn't get to sit through half an hour of silt striders, striding silt, every time they wanted to go and drop their loot at Creeper's.

The thing about where each strider/boat/teleport went was that it was needlessly complicated. Which sounds best to you: teleporting from Vivec to Balmora, or teleporting all over Vvardenfell because you have no idea which teleports go where and nobody is capable of telling you which teleports go where?

Regarding the local map: yes, I did find it, and no, it was never any help for finding houses. Cue five-minute searches for nondescript brown hut #259.
Which teleports? The Dunmer strongholds went in sequential order and the interventions took you to the nearest corresponding temple. I don't see much confusion.

And as for the fast travel, With the striders you're paying, also if you run all the way across the continent you're bound to encounter some bandit or beastie. But no! The entire trip is worry free with fast travel.

I said this earlier but I'll say it again. Fast travel makes you miss out on all sorts of goodies. For example, in Morrowind I was Running to the fort outside Ald'ruhn and found my first daedric ruin. Thus began the looting spree that got me well over 200 grand.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Morrowind had a great immersive enviroment with great lore and factions. Oblivion had much better game play when it came to combat and reduced some of the cheese like alchemy and sanctuary. It also made blocking and being a primary caster worth doing. However Oblivion ran into the problem of a mage guild leader and not ever casting a spell in your life. Morrowind forced you to level up the skills for that faction.

Of course stealth is still way overpowered where you can attack your foes without fear or retaliation.

[Tormsskull]

I like Morrowind better, I think, but I like both of the games. Morrowind worked well at low levels, but once you discovered some of the little tricks, the game quickly got out of hand (like how you can buy ingredients off of a merchant, turn them into a potion, and sell them back to the merchant for more than the ingredients). And the fact that all merchants had their money supply restocked in 24 hours.

Oblivion didn't hold my interest as long, but that's perhaps because it didn't seem like it had a very convincing story I guess. It felt like the story was hemmed in, rather than being built as an integral part of the game. Maybe I'll end up giving Oblivion another chance here shortly.

[factotum]

(like how you can buy ingredients off of a merchant, turn them into a potion, and sell them back to the merchant for more than the ingredients).

I'm struggling to see why that's a problem. In the real world, if you go out and buy a table, it will cost MORE than the materials used to make it, because actually making it takes someone's time and effort--essentially, you're paying them to make the table for you rather than having to do it yourself. Therefore, making up a potion out of ingredients and getting more money for it than the ingredients costs is just sensible. Contrast the craft system in World of Warcraft, where any crafted item actually fetched less money than the materials used to make it--so why even bother making the blasted thing? You could get better stuff from boss drops in instances anyway, and you could earn more money by simply gathering resources and selling those.

[Theodoriph]

The main plot in Oblivion is a touch inferior in my opinion to the main plot of Morrowind, though I've never beaten either. I get distracted too easily by sidequests and faction plots.

Having said that, I'd have to say that the side quests in Oblivion and the faction quests were superior. The Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood were dandy. The Fighters Guild was fine. The only one I had a problem with was the Mage's Guild plotline. It worked...but well...I felt more like a fighter than a mage. Perhaps because one of the best ways to kill mages in Oblivion is by hacking them to bits.

That being said, I miss writs of assassination.

[warty goblin]

I'm struggling to see why that's a problem. In the real world, if you go out and buy a table, it will cost MORE than the materials used to make it, because actually making it takes someone's time and effort--essentially, you're paying them to make the table for you rather than having to do it yourself. Therefore, making up a potion out of ingredients and getting more money for it than the ingredients costs is just sensible. Contrast the craft system in World of Warcraft, where any crafted item actually fetched less money than the materials used to make it--so why even bother making the blasted thing? You could get better stuff from boss drops in instances anyway, and you could earn more money by simply gathering resources and selling those.

I think the problem with that is that making stuff in the real world takes time and effort, making stuff in a game requires three clicks of the mouse. It might be logical, but its crummy balance.

I've never played Morrowind, I should pick up a copy somewhere, but I will say this about Oblivion. At first I did not like it, I found it to be unsatisfying and bland. Then I was stuck home alone for five days and could seriously invest time into it, at which point I really got into it. I think it was a case of mistaken expectations, I was expecting a much deeper life sim game, as opposed to a hack n slash. Once I got my head around the bit where I didn't need to eat and could go two weeks without sleep, I really started to enjoy the game.

The thing that I think about Oblivion is that it's a great medium for role-playing/narrative experiences. It just doesn't come with them built in.

[Tormsskull]

I'm struggling to see why that's a problem.


Because it results in an infinite money loop. Also, if you want to compare it to the real world, you have to remember supply and demand. If a potion seller typically holds 5 of a particular potion, she isn't going to buy 1000 of them from you, all for the same price, throughout the course of several days.



Contrast the craft system in World of Warcraft, where any crafted item actually fetched less money than the materials used to make it--so why even bother making the blasted thing? You could get better stuff from boss drops in instances anyway, and you could earn more money by simply gathering resources and selling those.


But, if you can earn more money by gathering resources, it implies you're selling those resources to someone. Since you're definitely not getting food prices from a vendor, you must be selling them to someone else. Therefore, someone is making something out of them.

Also, to disprove your second part, there are quite a few items in Alchemy that you can make that will sell for more than the mats. Swiftness potions come to mind, as well as the high-level flasks.

[Pyro]

I played Morrowind for a while, but I could never really get into it. The mainquest never really took off for me. Like someone else said, much of the quests seemed to be an impossible scavenger hunt than actually advancing the plot. Perhaps I didn't put enough time into and I should pick it up again.

[Shifty]

I invested my time heavily in both of these games, and my final impression was that Morrowind was simply the better game. This was strange, as my first impressions were pretty much unchanged through my experiences with both games, and I usually radically alter my views after a few days of binge-gaming.

Oblivion is worth playing for the visuals and the potential. Combat is rock solid, magic feels appropriately powerful, if ubiquitous. Blocking is a decent implementation of an arcade-y concept that doesn't feel too twitchy. They just made a mistake in the setting. Instead of one of the wild, outlandish ecologies of Tamriel, they set it in the most tepid, idyllic province possible. It just felt sleepy, nonthreatening. It was like being in Little Red Riding Hood. You knew the wolf was coming, and you hack it down with your axe. You were the hunter that saved children from monsters. The environment was just so surreally placid that it bored me.

Morrowind, on the other hand, is very different. All mechanics aside, Morrowind, from the first, is a threatening game. Everything around you is swamp and bare rocks. The environment is inherently hostile, with all the ash storms and the Blight. Just getting from one place to another can be a challenge, so it keeps you more involved with the game, assuming you get sucked in and don't mind the extra work. I played Morrowind a lot just to get to places that were hard to get to because I just liked that environment. Even the cliff racers.

Ultimately, Oblivion just didn't work on me. It was very shiny, but something didn't feel right. It was almost like playing a statistical averaging of a successful multi-platform action-RPG. There was nothing to make it stand out, nothing that hadn't been done before, other than the level of shine. While it does sound like I'm bashing Oblivion, do note I played both games roughly equally for the first week or so after getting them, and continued to play both more or less exclusively for nearly a month, which is a long time for me. I just kept coming back to Morrowind, though.

Play both, you won't regret either. You just might get more out of one than the other.

[Daze]

Definitely a worthy debate for fans of the Elder Scroll's series...

What I think is quite simple. Oblivion is a very good game, Morrowind was an Excellent game.

I agree with a lot that has already been said as far as pro and cons go. Combat, stealth and magic were definitely improved in Oblivion.

But thats about it... they fell short in quite a few areas.

1) "Levelled" enemies/dungeons, etc... Terrible idea. It took a lot of the fun out of the game. It's not right that at level 1 you could conceivably complete every quest, guild, cave in Tamriel. It removes challenge... or rather the fun that goes along with trying to make your guy/gal stronger so they can rock a dungeon that previously thwarted them. It made Morrowind exciting, Oblivion completely lacked this important aspect.

1a) "Levelled" enemies also messed up character development. God forbid you raise non-combat stats first and gain a few levels. I did that with the first character I made and he was basically unplayable after level 5. (I'm not one to lower a difficulty slider.. find that cheesy). This makes all characters some fighter/mage/thief blend... the character development in morrowind felt much more personal and unique.

2)Speaking of charcter development.... I see why they combined blade. But why make axes to be considered blades? what about spears? and where was medium armor?

3) I understand why they got rid of levitate. But I still missed it. (always had fun with that)

4) Clothes... OK they eliminated clothing and armor both being worn together (even though it was more realistic in morrowind). I know why they did it, for character modelling and to prevent cheese. But seriously... couldnt they have thrown a little bone? I want a cloak over my armor damn it! I dont see how that would complicate modeling all that much.

5) Training limit too low. Should be 10/level.

6) They added "The Thief" to astrological signs, which was nice. But there's still only a handful of useful ones. Seriously, who uses the serpent or lord or tower?

7) Minor skill levelling is way too difficult for some skills at higher levels. (*cough cough* alteration, armorer)

8) Cyrodil needed more flavor. It was beautiful and all, but I missed crab shell houses and mushroom forests. I got excited about something in morrowind it seemed around every turn.

9) Back to the "Levelled" problems.... Levelled loot was stupid too. If I earned a trinket, than give it to me at full power! Dont give me some watered down sword or spell because I found it early. That's dumb.

10) I'd rather read text than hear the same voice actors over and over and over again.

11) Encumbrance was too realistic. They can still have it, but be a little more friendly about it. A few tweaks would help, so I dont have to waste enchanting charge on a feather spell. This was particulary irksome in some of the deeper dungeons (Mehrune's Razor Quest, I'm looking at you)

12) I liked the revamps to magic overall, but spell requirements were too stringent sometimes. It sucks being level 40, having 100 in destruction and you still can't cast that super duper fire spell.

There's more... but I'm done ranting for now.

Dont get me wrong, I liked Oblivion a lot (still do and still play actually)..
but I LOVED Morrowind.

[Moongoat]

6) They added "The Thief" to astrological signs, which was nice. But there's still only a handful of useful ones. Seriously, who uses the serpent or lord or tower?


the thief was already there i checked.

[Cybren]

I woulda liked a change back to Daggerfalls system rather than the signs, myself.

[Theodoriph]

"1) "Levelled" enemies/dungeons, etc... Terrible idea. It took a lot of the fun out of the game. It's not right that at level 1 you could conceivably complete every quest, guild, cave in Tamriel. It removes challenge... or rather the fun that goes along with trying to make your guy/gal stronger so they can rock a dungeon that previously thwarted them. It made Morrowind exciting, Oblivion completely lacked this important aspect."


Some of the quests in Oblivion have level requirements, mainly the daedric quests...which you need to advance the main plot. Also, repeatedly fighting mudcraps and cliffracers was never exciting and quite tedious. Both systems were bad, but Morrowind's was worse. I was much less annoyed at Oblivion's.



"1a) "Levelled" enemies also messed up character development. God forbid you raise non-combat stats first and gain a few levels. I did that with the first character I made and he was basically unplayable after level 5. (I'm not one to lower a difficulty slider.. find that cheesy). This makes all characters some fighter/mage/thief blend... the character development in morrowind felt much more personal and unique."

Same as 1). They had to pick the lesser of two evil opponent systems.


"2)Speaking of charcter development.... I see why they combined blade. But why make axes to be considered blades? what about spears? and where was medium armor?"


I'm not sure about spears, but medium armor would have been useless given that for a Master of Heavy Armor, it weighs nothing. Heavy armor = useful. Light armor = useful (especially if you use a mod that revamps the stealth system like me and actually gives a negative to sneak for wearing heavy armor). Medium armor = useless. It was pretty useless even in Morrowind.


"4) Clothes... OK they eliminated clothing and armor both being worn together (even though it was more realistic in morrowind). I know why they did it, for character modelling and to prevent cheese. But seriously... couldnt they have thrown a little bone? I want a cloak over my armor damn it! I dont see how that would complicate modeling all that much."


I think they did it more to reduce the cheese of having another enchantable slot. I mean you already get 2 rings, 1 amulet, a helmet, a cuirass, greaves, gauntlets and boots. They probably felt another slot would be indulgent.


"5) Training limit too low. Should be 10/level."

That would have made characters become overpowered even quicker than they do.


"6) They added "The Thief" to astrological signs, which was nice. But there's still only a handful of useful ones. Seriously, who uses the serpent or lord or tower?"


Thief was already there. And most of the signs were useless in both of them...I have no clue if anyone ever uses them or why they're there =D


"7) Minor skill levelling is way too difficult for some skills at higher levels. (*cough cough* alteration, armorer)"

Well...they are minor skills. =P If you want them at a high level, you should have chosen it as a major skill. (With regards to armorer, it's actually quite simple...just repair every piece of equipment you come across. Loot your enemies corpse, repair their armor, and give it back to them.) =D



"9) Back to the "Levelled" problems.... Levelled loot was stupid too. If I earned a trinket, than give it to me at full power! Dont give me some watered down sword or spell because I found it early. That's dumb."


Again...the lesser of three evils. Either the player gets crap, they get something level appropriate or the get something overpowered.

That said, there is a mod that has items you gain through quests increase in power as you level. =)


"10) I'd rather read text than hear the same voice actors over and over and over again."

The voices have always been irritating. There are mods that cut out certain kinds of comments (i.e. bartering, comments about your skills etc., one that reduces the likelihood of an NPC conversation).


"11) Encumbrance was too realistic. They can still have it, but be a little more friendly about it. A few tweaks would help, so I dont have to waste enchanting charge on a feather spell. This was particulary irksome in some of the deeper dungeons (Mehrune's Razor Quest, I'm looking at you)"


I never had a problem with it...well I did...but that's because I liked to carry a lot of junk I didn't need. And I don't think being able to carry 500 pounds is realistic exactly =) If it were realistic and everyone had around 30-100 pound limits...the lord help us all.


"12) I liked the revamps to magic overall, but spell requirements were too stringent sometimes. It sucks being level 40, having 100 in destruction and you still can't cast that super duper fire spell."


I didn't mind the requirements. But the fact that you didn't need to improve magic skills to futher the plot of the mages guild along (ditto for fighters and thieves), was quite irritating.



P.S. I'd also recommend the "living economy" mod if anyone wants a less broken game. It makes it so merchants have an amount of gold dependent on their mercantile skill, they make transactions independent of you, the quantity of the item the merchant has affects the price (no more selling hundreds of restore fatigue potions!), and their gold resets every 2-5 days (depending on the kind of merchant they are). Ergo, no more merchants with unlimited gold. There's a bit more to it than that, but it's pretty nifty...makes getting rid of loot harder, but at least things aren't so broken. =)

[factotum]

Some of the quests in Oblivion have level requirements, mainly the daedric quests...which you need to advance the main plot. Also, repeatedly fighting mudcraps and cliffracers was never exciting and quite tedious. Both systems were bad, but Morrowind's was worse. I was much less annoyed at Oblivion's.


There is precisely ONE of the main quests with a level requirement--and it requires you to be level 2 rather than level 1. You *can* finish the entire game at level 2, people have done it!

Speaking of which, I think the biggest problem in Oblivion's levelling system is that it really points up the flaws of the character system in the game. Namely, you are actually better off choosing all the skills that you're never going to use as your character's favoured skills, because it allows you to get stronger in the skills you ARE using without having to level up and face stronger opposition. I have to say that any system which encourages you to select your primary skills as the ones you rarely use is the complete antithesis of decent role-playing...and Oblivion is still supposed to be an RPG, right?

[Hermit]

Oblivion didn't hold my interest as long, but that's perhaps because it didn't seem like it had a very convincing story I guess. It felt like the story was hemmed in, rather than being built as an integral part of the game. Maybe I'll end up giving Oblivion another chance here shortly.

I've always thought that the problem with Obivions main quest was that it was so straightforward. From the outset you're pretty much told it's you versus the Mythic Dawn to save Tamriel. There's no real twist beyond that. There's some really cool bits in it, I especially like hunting for clues with Baurus in the Imperial City, but other than that it's a lot of obvious fetch quests. Morrowind on the other hand had this overreaching plot. Every character had a different oppinion on Nerevar, the whole idea of reincarnation and whatnot. I just think it's a much more intriguing storyline.

That said I do think the guilds storylines are cool. They needed stricter requirements I think, to stop you beating all of them without relying on their main skills, but they were still good. And I really liked Knights of the Nine as a plotline, and Shivering Isles was ace. My only wish was that there was more reason to go back to SI once the mainquest is done, as there's so few sidequests there.

[Theodoriph]

I had thought the minimum was 5 to get a Daedric Artifact for Martin to use. But I just checked and you're right...you can get the wabbajack at 2, making it possible to beat the game at level 2 if you don't sleep and/or choose useless primary skills.

Regardless, I don't really see the problem with that. =P I had actually wanted to go back and play a low-level game =D

[ObadiahtheSlim]

If you're casting huge fireball spells, you're doing it wrong. Cast weakness to fire, lightning, etc. Then cast a powerful damage over 5sec or so. Stuff will be falling over dead with little effort.

[Semidi]

Oblivion's story was trash. Morrowind was far better; it felt like more of a rags to insanely powerful hero story compared to a rags to a person who didn't really feel like a hero story (because three ogres could kick my ass). That and the political system was far more intriguing.

I liked how Morrowind became easy after a certain time, it made up for how difficult it was at the beginning. Who didn't go wandering around at level 3 and discover an orc daedra worshiper in orcish armor, then proceed to hop skip and jump over god's creation in attempts to escape him (then to come back and one shot him).

I think for me, Morrowind had more grit. I like grit, everything in Oblivion as so shiny and peaceful. I was always wondering why they just didn't dump a few guards in a portal to kick some ass.

That being said, The Dark Brotherhood quests were awesome, the thieves' guild less so, and everyone else was rather dull.

[Morty]

2)Speaking of charcter development.... I see why they combined blade. But why make axes to be considered blades? what about spears? and where was medium armor?

Axes are Blunt weapons actually. Which makes some semblance of sense. Not very much, though.


8) Cyrodil needed more flavor. It was beautiful and all, but I missed crab shell houses and mushroom forests. I got excited about something in morrowind it seemed around every turn.

I'll just add that according to pre-Oblivion lore, Cyrodill was warm, dense forest, not painfully generic temperate forests & meadows.:smallannoyed:

[Freelance Henchman]

I'll just add that according to pre-Oblivion lore, Cyrodill was warm, dense forest, not painfully generic temperate forests & meadows.:smallannoyed:

The Imperial City was supposed to be a "Byzantium at the Amazon", surrounded by lush jungles and exotic fauna. That would have been a fantastic setting, instead they went for the cookie-cutter quasi-medieval-europe style.

[Arang]

Axes are Blunt weapons actually. Which makes some semblance of sense. Not very much, though.


You wield blunt weapons one way and bladed weapons another way. What the weapons themselves are like have nothing to do with it.

[factotum]

You wield blunt weapons one way and bladed weapons another way. What the weapons themselves are like have nothing to do with it.

I would be surprised if you wield an axe in the same way as you wield a sword. I'd also be surprised if you wield one the same way you wield a hammer, for that matter...

[Arang]

I'd also be surprised if you wield one the same way you wield a hammer, for that matter...

Well, all the characters in Oblivion do.

[Demented]

I liked how Morrowind became easy after a certain time, it made up for how difficult it was at the beginning. Who didn't go wandering around at level 3 and discover an orc daedra worshiper in orcish armor, then proceed to hop skip and jump over god's creation in attempts to escape him (then to come back and one shot him).

Actually, it was a routine Brigand that did that. At a higher level than 3, I'm certain.
"Gimme summma yer gold or I toss up yer hedd."
"...I could easily afford your pitiful toll. And judging by that, I assume you're just a humble thief. I think I would much prefer to teach you a measure of justice with the hilt of my sword."
"Fyne then. Bashin' time!"
"Ow! A third of my health, gone in single blow! Oh the terrible pain!"

A little misleading. :smallannoyed:

[warty goblin]

The auto-leveling in Oblivion never has bothered me much. To be honest it is a little annoying, but at least it keeps things somewhat challenging.

The thing that did annoy me about Oblivion is the Mages Guild questline. I completed that SOB once, and am never doing it again. The bit where I had to do all of those annoying as snot recommendation quests was something of a turn off, althouth honesty that's probably simply because I did them all so many times to get access to enchanting. The bit that really annoyed me was that there was no need to be a mage- I beat the entire questline with a character who only ever cast the basic healing spell. Stuff like needing certain spells to progress, or things like that would have made it far more sensible. That and the last boss was a complete pansy, I think I beat him to death before he even managed to cast a spell.

The Fighter's Guild I liked. Sure it didn't require any particular weapons skills, but after all the fighter's guild exists to complete contracts which require the use of force, it doesn't really matter what kind. That and the final battle actually felt pretty awesome, at least to me. Particularly killing that last guy. I won't say who for spoilers, but if you've beaten the quest you know who I mean. Man, I hated him so much I killed him, then reloaded the game and killed him again with my bare hands.

Thieves Guild I havn't beaten, since my character tends to make more noise than a bull in a china shop, but what I did do of it is pretty cool.

I've never touched the Dark Brotherhood, its just never fit with any of my character concepts, although I've been planning a truly merciless sneaky character for a while now...

[Sewer_Bandito]

As far as being overpowered is concerned, what BethSoft need to do is remove the most obviously broken abilities. Having 100% Chameleon means you can never be attacked by any monster, ever, which makes fights something of a cakewalk, and it's not like having any LESS than 100% offers much benefit at all.

Well you could just not munchkinize like that and not use 100% chameleon. The Elder Scrolls games are always going to be incredibly easy if you do things like that. Or you could play the games as they were inteneded and playing hte games becomes much more fulfilling.

[Balkash]

I'd say Morrowind. I realize that Obilivion has better graphic and more technology, but I really think that in an RPG the most important part is the story and the details. Morrowind is so full of interesting things. I played religiously for four years and only finally at the end did I do everything. I bought the guide book, did every quest, found every cool item, saw all the glitches, read all the books, collected all the unique items, read all the notes. With the expansion of Bloodmoon and Tribunal, Morrowind did a better job to cater to high level characters. The Clockwork City gave the game a maze, puzzle spin to it, while the Skaal gave it a very interesting twist. Yes, being a vampire was cool, but WEREWOLF. I mean you really actually did a whole change, and the cut scenes were gorgeous. Thats all just from the xbox. If you have PC Morrowind GOTY, just find a good site, download Complete Morrowind, as well as the skin upgrades, the best rated mods, and I bet you've added at least another whole year I could spend playing, completely blissful. With Oblivion, I must agree with other users, the leveling with you to be better than you really REALLY REALLY made me mad. In Morrowind, I killed Gods. In Oblivion, I got scared if I ever got ganged up on. I mean I could have the nearly same character in Oblivion as in Morrowind and where as in Morrowind I'd kill twenty guards without blinking, twenty guards in Oblivion, I'd be pwnd. The skills in Oblivion were interesting, I really can't say which type I like better. The story in Oblivion really sucked. It was that terrible, I'm the main character, but I'm just gonna go do what everyone else tells me to. No being the MAN, just being the MESSENGER! I'll admit, I did love the Radiant AI in Oblivion. If Morrowind had had that, I doubt this thread would even be needed.

[warty goblin]

As an addennum to the last post, in Oblivion I once went berserk for the hell of it and killed the entire population of one of the cities, guards and all. I think I was level 10 or so.

[Theodoriph]

The guards in Oblivion aren't that difficult, especially if you have a decent alchemy skill and do a bit of prepwork...or you're a mage. Mages kill everything easily at higher levels =D

[Gungnir]

Morrowind.

I loved that I could use a level 1 character to loot every single House's vault (I think Hlaalu's had the best loot). Silly guards just couldn't figure out what was happening. (Oh, and now that I think of it, I actually hijacked one of the vaults to put the loot in because I didn't want to waste time sleeping next to Creeper.)

Then there was the massive awesome that was my Amulet of Getting There Faster. It had the Jump spell for 1 second at near maximum strength, and I used it to get everywhere. I forget why it didn't kill me instantly, but it didn't, and I loved it so.

[Semidi]

Morrowind.

I loved that I could use a level 1 character to loot every single House's vault (I think Hlaalu's had the best loot). Silly guards just couldn't figure out what was happening.

Then there was the massive awesome that was my Amulet of Getting There Faster. It had the Jump spell for 1 second at near maximum strength, and I used it to get everywhere. I forget why it didn't kill me instantly, but it didn't, and I loved it so.

I combined the Night's Eye ring, boots of blinding speed, and a gauntlet for permanent levetation. I called it, "Northwestern Tamriel Airlines."

[factotum]

Well you could just not munchkinize like that and not use 100% chameleon. The Elder Scrolls games are always going to be incredibly easy if you do things like that. Or you could play the games as they were inteneded and playing hte games becomes much more fulfilling.

In point of fact I never did any "munchkinizing" as you put it in Morrowind...it was a lot more satisfying to play the game properly. The same was not true of Oblivion, because as you increased in levels the fights all got longer. Not necessarily HARDER--just longer; it took a good five minutes to get rid of a single ogre at level 20. Taking five or ten minutes to take down a single monster is fine if it's a boss fight or something like that, but when that's par for the course for every single monster you encounter, it just starts to feel like a chore.

I mean, just imagine how awful travelling any distance in Morrowind would have been if it took you five minutes to kill every Cliff Racer that attacked you...

[Freelance Henchman]

What Bethesda did right was the mod support. There's TONS of mods out both for Oblivion as well as Morrowind (btw, I liked both a lot). You can completely remove the auto-leveling, add new weapons and such and tweak just about any aspect of gameplay.

Without the mods, I would not have played either game 10% as much as I did with them.

[Theodoriph]

5 minutes!!! Wow! Though weapons are underpowered...well if you don't use magical ones. I rarely used magical weapons. Mages have such an advantage in their ability to deal damage...and their armor can be just as good too. It's not fair =)


I don't know why people talk so much about the storyline! I didn't know people actually played that =D The side quests and guild quests have always been more fun, and Oblivion handles them so much better (with the exception of the mages guild questline).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What bugs you about the mages guild? Is it the monkeying with what happened in Daggerfall by throwing the King of Worms into the mix? Was it the fact that a non-spellcaster (in this case meaning someone who doesn't cast a spell) could become the Archmage? I'll tell you what bugged me about it. Finger of the Mountain. It's the single most powerful spell the game has to offer, and you can only use it with godmode on. If you don't then you can't use it, since it requires more magicka than you'll ever have.:smallannoyed:

[Theodoriph]

The no magic proficiency needed.


Finger of the mountain is useable without godmode =) I was using it...it cost around 40 mana or so if I remember right...though I had willpower and intelligence maxed and destruction somewhere between 80 and 90 at the time. Requirements for spells go down as your skills improve. =)

[Tussy the Druid]

I tend to play both Morrowind and Oblivion fairly extensively modded. But I think I tend to opf for Morrowind being the better overall game. In terms of the gameplay Oblivion's combat is far superior, and the RAI is a nice touch which brings the the towns to life more. That said I prefer Morrowind's less generic high fantasy setting, the Dwemer ruins in particular are ace. And with the cities and whatnot all in the gameworld it all feels more persistant. Also MOrrowind tends to have a much better sense of achievement in the levelling process. I remember entering a tomb at about level 2 first time I played the game and then fleeing in terror from the undead inside. Coming back a few levels later to wipe the floor with them was brilliant.
My personal thoughts are that if they could find a nice middle ground between Oblivion and Morrowind for TES V then it'd be awesome. And they need to get some more books and lore written. One of the most disappointing things about Oblivion was that most of the books were just carbon copies from Morrowind (Including a copy of the Real Barenziah which has been censored by the Temple of Morrowind. That's some pretty hefty influence they've got there :p)

I have to agree with you. Morrowind seemed much more extensive, and I loved the cheese levels. If they find a balance in the gameplay/AI of Oblivion with the story and overall epicness of Morrowind, my life would cease to exist.

P.S
I loved reading The Real Barenziah

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The no magic proficiency needed.


Finger of the mountain is useable without godmode =) I was using it...it cost around 40 mana or so if I remember right...though I had willpower and intelligence maxed and destruction somewhere between 80 and 90 at the time. Requirements for spells go down as your skills improve. =)

I had maxed destruction, and the mana cost was over 2000.

[warty goblin]

I had maxed destruction, and the mana cost was over 2000.

Did you pick up the spell really late, like at a high level? Because I think that makes a difference, I'm not sure though...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I think I was at least level 40. At that level, the spell can basically kill anything instantly and send them flying.

[Theodoriph]

haha I guess that's why =D I didn't know the power of the spell depended on level though =D I could never wait too long to have access to enchanting =D

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I just felt safer having it around. It's what got me past Mehrunes Dagon at the end of the Main Quest. I tried using Goldbrand and Martin ended up getting killed.

[Cybren]

Since it's a quest reward its stats probably vary based on your level, like a magic items would

[JackMage666]

Well, since Morrowind seems to definitely be winning over Oblivion, let's go on to expansions...

Shivering Isles vs. Bloodmoon and Tribunal.

Personally, I think Tribunal was nearly useless. I had next to no fun doing these quests, and I could predict the end from the instant I stepped into it. It didn't do anything for me - What's more, most of the famous cheese level of Morrowind was eliminated. I couldn't stand it.

Bloodmoon was better, but so much of it just seemed like it was just testing. I mean, the Blue Dev's ring? C'mon... The only quest that was fun was the final quest, though I did have a bit of fun as a werewolf. Overall, I just think it was kinda boring.

Shivering Isles wins out of these 3 for me. The questline was awesome, with the amazing Sheogorath backing it up. Hardly any of the NPCs were copies, and nearly every one seemed unique (except the Zealots and and Heretics). It was full of flavor and really intense. I honestly don't know how I played Oblivion without it.

[Theodoriph]

Since it's a quest reward its stats probably vary based on your level, like a magic items would

I guess =) I hadn't thought it would though since it's a spell. Not all quest rewards do (i.e. scales of pitiless justice).

[Zarrexaij]

My biggest gripe with Oblivion was that it was a lore-killer, plain and simple. It was also targeted more towards the hack-n-slash shooter casual gamers, which irritated me. It felt more like a shooter with swords than a real roleplaying game. Yeah, it's fun, but it quickly got boring. The environment is pretty bland compared to Morrowind. The thing I hated the most was that they reduced the incredibly interesting, mysterious Daedric Princes into archetypical demons/devils from Hell. Oblivion (the place) is NOT supposed to be ANYTHING like Hell, and the Daedra are NOT evil. And, please, the Aedra don't have avatars. They're also incredibly weak compared to their immortal brothers. Akatosh shouldn't have been able to send Mehrunes Dagon back to Oblivion. That was also such an irritating deux ex machina. The leveling system was incredibly broken. At times, it was less stable than Morrowind. The only thing it really has over Morrowind, just vanilla, is that the sneak system is awesome and the characters are a little less generic.

I was damn glad for Shivering Isles though. I just wish Sheogorath was the same redheaded banker from Buggerfall, I mean Daggerfall in there. Physically, I mean.

Now Morrowind... Morrowind was beautiful. I was in awe with the environment. The night sky was especially gorgeous. I really felt like I was in another world. Granted, the combat sucked, and so did the barter system, but I loved this game to death. The main quest could have been a little better, but overall it was interesting and damn preferable to the generic one of Oblivion. You had to actually be a mage for the Mage's Guild and such, which was definitely a plus (Fed Ex missions, not so much). I found the culture of the dark elves extremely interesting and a refresher from typical treatment of dark elves. In Morrowind, you couldn't really be sure who was telling the truth about the Tribunal, the Daedra, and the Nerevarine, which did well for the immersion. Heck, towards the end, I wasn't even sure if Dagoth Ur was the true enemy, if really an enemy at all. He was portrayed as evil by the Tribunal Temple, though in truth he had been betrayed and the Tribunal were far more guilty than him. He wasn't just some thoroughly evil guy. More than anything, he was insane.

[Lorn]

I would be surprised if you wield an axe in the same way as you wield a sword. I'd also be surprised if you wield one the same way you wield a hammer, for that matter...
Actually, axes and hammers are pretty similar - hit someone with it. Axes just require hitting them with the sharp bit. No finesse, unlike a sword.

To be honest, the main problem I have with the (combat) skill system is knives and daggers - who slashes with a dagger and hopes for anything? It's pointless, doesn't work. More of a stabby weapon, and the stance for a dagger is completely different to the stance for a sword. It's more a weapon to use while grappling or whatever than a weapon to run in and slash with.

But still - back to the topic; Morrowind annoyed me to the extent I gave up on it very quickly. You couldn't run without burning fatigue - yeah, OK, realistic. But I'm not going to waste time travelling on foot and walking. The combat was confusing, and you couldn't personalise the character enough.

Oblivion depends on how you want to play it. Want to roleplay? Roleplay. Want to hack/slash/stab/burn/electrocute/drop minotaur heads? Go ahead.

I can't really give an answer as to which is better, though, as I didn't get that far out of the early stages in Morrowind...

[Morty]

Want to roleplay? Roleplay.

How, exactly? Oblivion doesn't give me much opportunity to roleplay, what with lack of proper dialogues and choices other than mage/warrior/thief. You say that character personalization in Morrowind was lacking, and that's true. But Oblivion is even worse in this regard.

[warty goblin]

How, exactly? Oblivion doesn't give me much opportunity to roleplay, what with lack of proper dialogues and choices other than mage/warrior/thief. You say that character personalization in Morrowind was lacking, and that's true. But Oblivion is even worse in this regard.

Oblivion's role playing elements I find have less to do with the script and the characters reactions, than with the importance that you attach to your character's actions. That is, the game does not change much if I close every Oblivion Gate I find, or only do it when I need some quick lootz, but I can choose to make closing (or not) Oblivion gates a significant part of who my character is. There's no reason per say to do things one way or the other most of the time, which is one of the things I really like about the game.

[Cybren]

My biggest gripe with Oblivion was that it was a lore-killer, plain and simple. It was also targeted more towards the hack-n-slash shooter casual gamers, which irritated me. It felt more like a shooter with swords than a real roleplaying game. Yeah, it's fun, but it quickly got boring. The environment is pretty bland compared to Morrowind. The thing I hated the most was that they reduced the incredibly interesting, mysterious Daedric Princes into archetypical demons/devils from Hell. Oblivion (the place) is NOT supposed to be ANYTHING like Hell, and the Daedra are NOT evil. .

If I may, I believe that Dagons realm is the only one that looks like hell, given that he is Lord of Destruction. The Shivering Isles, for example, look nothing like the Oblivion you see in the normal game.

And, the Daedric quests have you assissting many of the Daedra. Certainly not all of them are evil, considering the level of passion and care they have for their followers (aside from Mehrunes Dagon that is)

[factotum]

That is, the game does not change much if I close every Oblivion Gate I find, or only do it when I need some quick lootz, but I can choose to make closing (or not) Oblivion gates a significant part of who my character is.

That's all very well, but the game itself gives you no assistance in developing a character. If you look at something like Fallout, not only could you pick a whole selection of non-combat-related skills and still have a chance of doing well, you could actually completely change the outcome of various quests--have a high enough Speech and Charisma and you could even talk the end boss of the game into doing the decent thing, rather than having to fight him!

Oblivion gave you the real problem that if you selected non-combat skills for your character, and levelled those skills up, you'd be gimping yourself because your opposition would increase in power while your ability to fight them did not. Add to that the ludicrous scaled loot system, and I don't think it even gave you the full fighter/mage/thief options; choose to be a thief and you'd get killed in every combat and those items you COULD steal would be rubbish because you'd be low level. Therefore you pretty much had the options of Fighter or Mage!

[VanBuren]

That's all very well, but the game itself gives you no assistance in developing a character. If you look at something like Fallout, not only could you pick a whole selection of non-combat-related skills and still have a chance of doing well, you could actually completely change the outcome of various quests--have a high enough Speech and Charisma and you could even talk the end boss of the game into doing the decent thing, rather than having to fight him!

Oblivion gave you the real problem that if you selected non-combat skills for your character, and levelled those skills up, you'd be gimping yourself because your opposition would increase in power while your ability to fight them did not. Add to that the ludicrous scaled loot system, and I don't think it even gave you the full fighter/mage/thief options; choose to be a thief and you'd get killed in every combat and those items you COULD steal would be rubbish because you'd be low level. Therefore you pretty much had the options of Fighter or Mage!

If I remember right, that was the reason for the slider. It wasn't to make the game easier or harder for difficulty, but to balance it out depending on which stats you leveled.

[Cybren]

Months ago i reinstalled the game and downloaded a swath of mods, mostly to test my new PC.

So, recently I decided to actually play, partly because of this thread.


HOLY COW


I was like, walking outside Anvil after (for the fifteenth time) finishing the last of the thieves guild quests (ugh bugz + lazy auto save = RESTART HOORAH), when I hear an unnerving screech, and then a crash. I look around and spot fireballs in the distance impacting on a hill and exploding.

So I cautiously approach and I hear the flapping of wings. As I make it over the hill I see an open oblivion gate, with a variety of daedra I had never seen before. Then to my right my worst fears come true. I see a dragon. A flying, fire breathing dragon!. I scramble to my senses and put on my helmet, then cast a buff to boost my strength and blades skill. A daedra runs into my field of view so I smack it down a single swipe of my sword. Then I do a thrusting power attack, knocking the dragon out of the sky, tumbling down a hill. After dispatching two more daedra I quickly leap down the top of the hill, both of us tumbling down, but the great beast having fallen first hits the bottom, it doesn't fly away. I fall, landing on the dragon with another power attack, and then unleash a flurry of strikes that drain me of nearly all my fatigue, and the dragons health. With the foe defeated I hear an angry yell coming from the top of the hill, and a Nord, followed by two other Daedra come sprinting at me. I knock down the Nord, and then dispatch the Daedra, and attempt to yield to the Nord. He declines the offer, instead hitting me in the face with a silver mace. I pull up my shield, and prod him with a few attacks. But my health is getting low, and one good shot will do me in. So I pull up my shield and try to fight back, but as I think i'm about to be slain, the game slows down. For a moment, for an instant, ten moments passed, I saw the strike miss me as I rolled backwards, out of the way. I then realized I had been given a chance. I did an attack, and with such speed I slid towards him, formless, nothing but the blade rushing towards his breast. He went sailing nearly ten yards away. I took the chance to cast a healing spell, and then a spell to ease my fatigue. I had gotten so tired from exertion I was seeing double. As my foe stands up, he begins jumping. At first I think he is mad, but then he casts some spell and begins to fly. He soars at me, almost as if he were the dragon I had just slain. I have end him with another strike of my sword.


So yeah, what did I learn? All the awesome parts of oblivion were not made by Bethesda.

[Prophaniti]

Very, very true, Cybren. Oblivion is a really fun engine that can do some really fun things, but the game as released loses it's appeal very quickly.

The one mod I found that I felt helped immensely simply by improving the suspense and atmosphere was a darkness mod. I can't remember the name and can't find it anymore, but all it did was kill all ambient lighting indoors and lower the lighting settings at night. Now you actually have a use for torches or Night Eye spells without having to turn the gamma way down. I loved it, gave a real 'dungeoncrawl' feel to the game when you couldn't see the zombie that was hitting you unless you held a torch instead of a shield. That, plus a mod that made torches grow dimmer and burn out over time... Vast improvement to the game right there. I also liked the mods that made archery more deadly(to everyone, including you), as it should be. People shouldn't still be fighting with multiple arrows sticking out of them (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnnoyingArrows). I found the image of me hacking away at people while pincushioned simply too ridiculous.

I've since tried to recreate the darkness mod but with only limited success. If anyone knows what I'm talking about and could link it for me, I'd appreciate it.

[AdversusVeritas]

. . . and the interventions took you to the nearest corresponding temple. I don't see much confusion.Actually, they didn't do that. The map was divided up into regions and you go to the nearest temple for the region that you are in, not the temple that you are actually nearest to. Also, it could get really confusing when trying to figure out what counts as a temple and what does not (for example, the Ghostgate temple didn't count).

Fast travel is my biggest gripe about the Oblivion, but I actually end up walking quite a bit in order to level up my skills. As much as fast travel (and the subsequent loss of levitate, mark/recall, silt striders, mage guides, and the interventions) pains me, I would gladly trade all of those in for being able to actually find all of the stuff I need to.

Sure, it was kind of neat to have to follow the directions that the quest givers gave to you, but it got old fast. I flipped the game off several times simply because of quests without map markers or adequate directions. Other times I turned it off even after finding what I was looking for because the cave or whatever that was supposedly northwest of the town was actually almost directly west and I had just wasted half an hour wandering.

Morrowind was fun at first, but the fact that I had to depend on the internet and my friends just to find decent directions really bogged things down for me. There are things that I miss about it, but with the way that Oblivion made every single skill more fun to use easily makes up for those things.

Mastery perks, minigames, actually being able to control block, just about the only thing that hasn't gotten drastically better has been spell casting, but I even find that more enjoyable in Oblivion.

[Artanis]

Is the journal any better in Oblivion than it is in Morrowind? One of the things that really pisses me off in Morrowind is how hard it can be to keep track of what quests you're on. WoW's quest log was a hundred times better than Morrowind's.

...on that note, I'm gonna go see if there's any mods to make Morrowind's journal not totally suck :smalltongue:

[factotum]

Didn't they improve the Morrowind journal in one of the patches? It was certainly improved in the expansions, at any rate.

[JackMage666]

You can search the Morrowind journal for keywords, but it's still far from good. Oblivion is far better in terms of Journal/Quest Tracking in that regard.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I tend to like Morrowind better. That game held my interest for well over three years.

Honestly, I didn't care as much for Oblivion's combat engine as some. If my sword skill is 75/100, my character should be amongst the great swordsmen of Tamriel. Instead, he's stuck with me acting as his half-assed proxy. The special moves just added a level of combat frustration for me, especially when I can never seem to disarm a guy, but he gets me almost every time and whoops -- there's my fancy magic sword rolling down the hill. Combat spellcasting and archery seemed a little less annoying then Morrowind's, but overall I didn't care for combat in the system.

Yes, there has to be a happy medium in the levelling system. But I prefer Morrowind over Oblivion in the system chose. In Morrowind, I could occasionally run into a space where my character would be terribly outclassed. In Oblivion, I'm guaranteed not to have to worry about that. Worse, I dislike feeling like almost every combat was a fight for my life. Getting two or more enemies on my person was frequently a death sentence.

Oblivion's main quest was lacking in comparison to Morrowind's. However, Oblivion's side quests and subplots were far better than Morrowind's. I liked playing a Morag Tong, but playing the Dark Brotherhood was downright wicked. I loved every minute of those quests. Even the DB's initiation (kill someone just to let the DB know you want to join) was better than MT's (find the not-so-secret entrance to their headquarters). However, my favorite end quest for all the guild's was the Thieves' guild quest in Oblivion. It was just awesome.

I liked the world of Morrowind far better (granted, it's the same continent as Tamriel, but still ...) Morrowind was an alien landscape. There was enough to keep it familiar, but more than enough to make one feel out of place at times.

I liked that one found artefacts just by exploring in Morrowind. There are a couple to find in Oblivion, but most the named artefacts are given in specific quests. I didn't feel like there was much to be gained by exploring in Oblivion. The unique magic items only appear in structured questing in Oblivion. There's few discoveries.

Also, though voice acting can be cool, using the same voices for everyone is not. Patrick Stewart, Terrance Stamp, and Sean Bean are awesome. I was sick of everyone else's voices (especially the all the elf voices) pretty quick. I don't mind reading. Moreover, it seemed the text responses allowed for a lot more information than the voice responses ever gave.

Okay. I'm done. For now.

[Cybren]

You can search the Morrowind journal for keywords, but it's still far from good. Oblivion is far better in terms of Journal/Quest Tracking in that regard.

Honestly, I hated how the oblivion journal pretty much completed quests for you.

It's just "go here, okay, now go here. Then go here too"

[Theodoriph]

Very, very true, Cybren. Oblivion is a really fun engine that can do some really fun things, but the game as released loses it's appeal very quickly.

The one mod I found that I felt helped immensely simply by improving the suspense and atmosphere was a darkness mod. I can't remember the name and can't find it anymore, but all it did was kill all ambient lighting indoors and lower the lighting settings at night. Now you actually have a use for torches or Night Eye spells without having to turn the gamma way down. I loved it, gave a real 'dungeoncrawl' feel to the game when you couldn't see the zombie that was hitting you unless you held a torch instead of a shield. That, plus a mod that made torches grow dimmer and burn out over time... Vast improvement to the game right there. I also liked the mods that made archery more deadly(to everyone, including you), as it should be. People shouldn't still be fighting with multiple arrows sticking out of them (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnnoyingArrows). I found the image of me hacking away at people while pincushioned simply too ridiculous.

I've since tried to recreate the darkness mod but with only limited success. If anyone knows what I'm talking about and could link it for me, I'd appreciate it.



http://ballofflame.googlepages.com/balloffire%27soblivionmodlist


There's a darker dungeon mod in that list. And one that makes nights darker....but they're two separate mods. =)

The Supreme Magicka mod is apparently very good, though I haven't tried it yet.

[Daze]

thought of another couple of things which annoyed me in oblivion! (after playing for the last 2 weeks of course... so please dont think i totally hate the game, but some things need definite improvement)

1) Can't steal houses :(
Man, one of the first things to do in morrowind is jack yourself a crib. Personally I liked taking over the Khajit traders house in Balmora (rhazeera?)... looting (and selling) all his stuff and then redecorating to my liking. Sucks you can't do that anymore, that was a major RP element lost.,,, and leads me too...

2) Stealing, guards and items...
If a guard (or even another person) doesnt see you commit a crime.. theft, murder, whatever... then you shouldn't have a bounty. Period! That was cheap, cheesy and lazy on Bethesda's part. If I kill someone in their sleep, and then kill the other person in the house (Surille brothers... I like following through on Galthiers 'Paranoia' quest, heh), then there's no way anyone should know I did that. Trooping to skrivva or armande chhristophe gets annoying after awhile... poor game decision and another RP element by the wayside.
Oh... and items. I know they wanted to introduce a fence system and give weight to the thieves guild and all, but again realism is sacrificed. How would a merchant in Anvil know that the bottle of wine I got in Chorral is a stolen item? I can live with that I guess... but they should have added a few more unscrupulous merchants. Some of the fences are hard/inconvenient to find.

3) I still stand by that levelled loot and enemies is stupid.
Fine, they wanted levelled enemies/loot... I'm ok with "outdoor" monsters/bandits being levelled. Like Morrowind actually... as the game progresses and you level, the "random" monsters become tougher and their gear is better. But the "cave" monsters should be static... I should not be able to loot every Aleyid ruin at level 1 or 2... stupid, stupid, stupid.

And I reiterate they killed non/low-combat classes. And stop saying to "lower the slider"... that's a cop out and shouldnt have been made necessary in the first place!

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

There are aspects of either game with weaknesses or strengths.

Alchemy: Oblivion rightly nerfed a lot of the potions, and the effect a boosted intelligence would have on potions. I don't blame them. Even without using the ridiculous brain boosts, home-brew potions were incredibly powerful in Morrowind. With a full set of Grand Master apparati, Alchemy near 100, and one dose of Int-Boost potions, I could brew Restore Health potions that would last most of combat, and healed me so fast I'd be at full or near full health by the end of the fight. Oblivion makes home-brewed potions sane, yet still useful. Moreover, I love the addition of poisons. It makes things so much easier for my light armored characters.

On the other hand Oblivion lacks some of parts of Alchemy I liked, and even adds a bit which makes no sense. All ingrediants have four possible effects in both games. Mixing items together yields potions that can have up to four effects, again an aspect of both games. Oblivion takes an odd detour however.

In Morrowind, you could mix rudimentary potions together without knowing the effects. The results could be disasterous at times, but a clever budding alchemist would be able to figure out effects of ingredients with trial and error. Thus, even if you couldn't readily identify a reagents full repetoire of uses, you could figure them out and someone (like me) who likes to take notes in games will find he can mix things as he likes.

In Oblivion, if you don't know a reagents effect, you can use that effect. It seems to make sense -- except it doesn't. It means two items that make a perfectly viable Restore Magicka potion for a Novice Alchemist might make a Restore Magicka-Fire Damage potion for an Expert Alchemist. An alchemist has to constantly revise his thinking. It's a bit annoying to find that, on becoming an expert, my energy drink is now giving me severe heart-burn, and my deadly posions now fortify strength. Secondly, Oblivion seems to have more reagents than Morrowind that have exactly the same four effects. This effectively reduces the number of useful recipes as you level Alchemy.

Overall, I find things a wash for Alchemy. Morrowind does some things better; Oblivion does other things better.

[Theodoriph]

thought of another couple of things which annoyed me in oblivion! (after playing for the last 2 weeks of course... so please dont think i totally hate the game, but some things need definite improvement)

1) Can't steal houses :(
Man, one of the first things to do in morrowind is jack yourself a crib. Personally I liked taking over the Khajit traders house in Balmora (rhazeera?)... looting (and selling) all his stuff and then redecorating to my liking. Sucks you can't do that anymore, that was a major RP element lost.,,, and leads me too...

2) Stealing, guards and items...
If a guard (or even another person) doesnt see you commit a crime.. theft, murder, whatever... then you shouldn't have a bounty. Period! That was cheap, cheesy and lazy on Bethesda's part. If I kill someone in their sleep, and then kill the other person in the house (Surille brothers... I like following through on Galthiers 'Paranoia' quest, heh), then there's no way anyone should know I did that. Trooping to skrivva or armande chhristophe gets annoying after awhile... poor game decision and another RP element by the wayside.
Oh... and items. I know they wanted to introduce a fence system and give weight to the thieves guild and all, but again realism is sacrificed. How would a merchant in Anvil know that the bottle of wine I got in Chorral is a stolen item? I can live with that I guess... but they should have added a few more unscrupulous merchants. Some of the fences are hard/inconvenient to find.

3) I still stand by that levelled loot and enemies is stupid.
Fine, they wanted levelled enemies/loot... I'm ok with "outdoor" monsters/bandits being levelled. Like Morrowind actually... as the game progresses and you level, the "random" monsters become tougher and their gear is better. But the "cave" monsters should be static... I should not be able to loot every Aleyid ruin at level 1 or 2... stupid, stupid, stupid.

And I reiterate they killed non/low-combat classes. And stop saying to "lower the slider"... that's a cop out and shouldnt have been made necessary in the first place!



1) If it were a true roleplay element you'd be hung for murder and your game would be over :smalltongue:

2) There's a mod which reduces the distance at which guards hear a yell. Currently you can hear people talking from 750 units (whatever the units are) away. The guards can hear someone shouting for help from 3000 units away. The mod makes it so the distance is only 1000 units away.

Just run a search for:

No Psychic Guards v1.2

When you murder someone out of sight and out of sound range, the guards will not show up out of nowhere, unless they are nearby and hear the yelling. Voice distance for reporting crimes has been greatly reduced. But a guard walking within the reduced alarm range still might might hear the screams for help. There will be no bounty placed on your head unless the guards hear the original NPC crime victim yelling at the time the crime is commited. And you will also be arrested if the guards see you chasing or being chased by an attack victim.


No Psychic Guards Harder v1.2

All of the above mentioned is included, but this plugin also greatly changed the dispositions of NPC crime victims (now they lose 100 disposition if they are the victim of a crime). They might attack you on sight now. Also, the crime penalties have been greatly increased.



3) Bad guys in Morrowind didn't get any harder as you levelled. The cliff racers did get more annoying though. =P The main problem with having cave monsters static is it railroads the player and makes for a more linear RPG (a la Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Paper Mario etc.). And the series has never really been about linearity.

4) "And I reiterate they killed non/low-combat classes. And stop saying to "lower the slider"... that's a cop out and shouldnt have been made necessary in the first place!"

No, it's not a cop-out. It's impossible to devise a combat system that would challenge both Chuck Norris and Doughboy. Either Doughboy gets wiped or Chuck Norris has no fun. So they have a slider where you can adjust the difficulty to match how you designed your character. If you want to go all out in speechcraft, mercantile and what-not, you can without being killed. If you want to be Chuck Norris, you can...without taking candy from a baby.

[factotum]

Well, the thing is, since they were implementing a completely immersion-killing levelling system anyway ("Huh? Where have all the wolves gone? Just mountain lions round here now...wonder what they eat?"), why didn't they make it a bit cleverer and only level the enemies based on your combat skills? It wouldn't have been difficult to do, and it would have meant a non-combat character would have about the same difficulty getting through the game as an out-and-out blaster.

And I don't mind having SOME enemies levelled, but as I implied above, it just kills immersion in the story stone dead when every single low-level critter in an area disappears just because you're too high level to see them anymore. The Cliff Racers in Morrowind were a perfect example; they *were* levelled, but in a way that meant they were still easier to kill for a high-level character than a low-level one, and they didn't all mysteriously die out and get replaced by something tougher when you hit level 20!

[Cybren]

No, it's not a cop-out. It's impossible to devise a combat system that would challenge both Chuck Norris and Doughboy. Either Doughboy gets wiped or Chuck Norris has no fun. So they have a slider where you can adjust the difficulty to match how you designed your character. If you want to go all out in speechcraft, mercantile and what-not, you can without being killed. If you want to be Chuck Norris, you can...without taking candy from a baby.

How about "There's a variety of ways to win at combat, some more effective than others but all valid. The difficulty of fights is judged in other metrics than the numerical stats of the enemies increasing linearly with your level, as the concept of "Silver is better than iron, elven is better than siver, etc etc" is lame and not really all that interesting compared to a system where there are a variety of benefits to different equipment, abilities, and skills, rather than "item, item +1, spell, spell +1, spell +2". Removing that, and using a sane scaling of enemy level in line with the players, will result in allowing the player to play the game without cheating themselves out of a sense of accomplishment"

[Telok]

http://www.elricm.com/nuke/html/index.php

Elric is the place for Morrowind and Oblivion mods for me. People who poof around with fileplanet can go <obscene><obscene><obscene> themselves with a daedric claymore. Twice.

That said when you have to kill people, magic is your friend. Frenzy makes them attack you or anyone nearby. Frenzy at level 25, in a 20 foot radius, for 20 seconds. I call that spell "War." The little teaching area in the Arcane University is littered with the bodies of apprentices and scholars. I often get the mage guards killed for their zero weight hoods. Another useful one is a spell that does 3 damage for 10 seconds on touch and invisibility on you for ten seconds. It's just horrible, the AI can't cope with it.

One major annoyance I have with Oblivion is that the Damage Attribute effect does not apply to NPCs. It works with critters, but not NPCs. You can hit NPC with a damage speed effect fifty times and nothing changes. Note that NPCs are anything that's a playable race in Oblivion. I think this is an error in the basic coding of the game, nothing in the toolset seems to indicate that NPCs should be unaffected. It's a pity too, one of my favorite things to do in Morrowind was to run circles around Dagoth Ur and fry his attributes down to zero. You had to watch out because he had some spell reflection, but once he was frozen you could use Sunder and Keening without that mad demigod chewing on your butt all the time.

And taunting him with summoned dremora was fun too.

[Artanis]

How about "There's a variety of ways to win at combat, some more effective than others but all valid.
Emphasis mine.

The problem with this line of thought is that you wind up right where you started. If an enemy is beatable by the least-effective "way to win at combat", then that enemy is going to be a hell of a lot easier using the most-effective way, regardless of how "valid" those ways are.



Describe to me a system that makes combat just as easy for a pansy smooth-talker as it is for Grog the Ebony-covered super-warrior that doesn't involve a difficulty slider of some sort. Go ahead and try, but it isn't going to happen. The only possible way to get close is to scale enemies off combat skills alone, but that's no better than a slider, since you're still making "EZ-mode enemies" and "non-combat characters" go hand-in-hand anyways.

[factotum]

I just don't believe that it is not possible to balance a game so that characters who do not specialise in combat can't still do OK. It bears repeating, just take a look at Fallout; you could have a character who was not a combat SPECIALIST who could nonetheless hold his own in a fight, even if that was only by persuading other people to help out. Oblivion just doesn't hit the balance right, and it's important to do that in a game where you only have one character to play. (In RPGs where you control an entire party it's obviously much easier to strike the balance, because you can have one or two weak combat characters without seriously compromising the entire team).

I think this is at least partially a problem with the character system used in Oblivion (and Morrowind as well, to a lesser extent). Allowing your character to level up through improving their skills is a nice idea in theory, but it causes a lot of problems in practice that wouldn't be an issue with the old-fashioned "gain experience from doing stuff and level up from that". Mind you, I've always been a proponent of removing the artificial "level" system from computer RPGs anyway--levelling up was something implemented in pen and paper RPGs to make stuff easier to track; when you have a computer keeping track of everything you don't need such a crutch.

[Daze]

Describe to me a system that makes combat just as easy for a pansy smooth-talker as it is for Grog the Ebony-covered super-warrior that doesn't involve a difficulty slider of some sort. Go ahead and try, but it isn't going to happen. The only possible way to get close is to scale enemies off combat skills alone, but that's no better than a slider, since you're still making "EZ-mode enemies" and "non-combat characters" go hand-in-hand anyways.

And therein lies the problem!

Who says you MUST have a system that allows everyone to play and go through the game equally and in the same manner?

My sneaky, mercantile/speech heavy thief should not be able to go willy nilly into every dungeon/ruin/cave/fort he sees. (with careful planning perhaps, but thats it).

My bulky, dopey, tank of a fighter should not be able to cast magic all that well nor get good prices from shopkeepers.

My mage may cast devasting spells at range, but up close with a dagger he's toast.

See my point?

THAT'S a fun game. Raising my major skills should not make the game harder for me. It gives me a chance to replay as a different type of character (instead of the seeming carbon copys in Oblivion... minor exception in magics maybe).

Morrowind accomplished this successfully already. It made levelled "world" enemies, but kept the dungeons static. My non-combat mage/thief may have been a pansy for a little while... but a few levels.. some nicer items... new spells... and BAM, that daedric ruin was no problem.

There was satisfaction in that.

And to whomever said "that railroads you" .... BS. Did you ever feel railroaded in Morrowind? Seriously...

[VanBuren]

And I reiterate they killed non/low-combat classes. And stop saying to "lower the slider"... that's a cop out and shouldnt have been made necessary in the first place!

No. I'm not going to stop saying it, because that's exactly how it was designed to be played. Whether or not it's the best way to do it is entirely a different issue, though a valid one. But that doesn't change the fact that a method of balance exists.

[Morty]

Describe to me a system that makes combat just as easy for a pansy smooth-talker as it is for Grog the Ebony-covered super-warrior that doesn't involve a difficulty slider of some sort. Go ahead and try, but it isn't going to happen. The only possible way to get close is to scale enemies off combat skills alone, but that's no better than a slider, since you're still making "EZ-mode enemies" and "non-combat characters" go hand-in-hand anyways.

How about Arcanum and Fallout 1&2? In those games if you were persuasive you didn't need to fight. And if you had to, your companions did the fighting for you.

[Telok]

Fallout did it quite well. I did one try as a talker/medic that was surprisingly good. He was also an amazing pickpocket, because he needed to steal as many stimpacks as possible.

Morrowind did it well too. Played correctly a good illusion/conjuring mage could get through all the required fights with summoned critters and a few invisibility spells. You could do it with an enchanter/alchemist too. You can't do this in Oblivion, or at least not without getting face=>keyboard from boredom. The summoned critters are too weak at lower levels (unless conjuring is not a major skill for a conjurer) and the limit of one summons at a time is pathetic.

With the difference in magical power between Morrowind and Tamriel I just don't understand how the empire could make even a credible threat to the island. Of course Vivec did all the negotiations, and he was always a wussy. The empire never messed with the Telvanni either, just left them alone and never seemed to make any demands of them. Heck the one time the Imperial Legion tried to collect taxes from a Telvanni it all ended in tears and the Nevarine had to rescue the surviving soldier.

[Daze]

No. I'm not going to stop saying it, because that's exactly how it was designed to be played. Whether or not it's the best way to do it is entirely a different issue, though a valid one. But that doesn't change the fact that a method of balance exists.

Well what are we talking about then? Of course we're discussing the best way to do things, and the best ways games can be designed. By comparison morrowind and oblivion did things totally differently in many regards and THAT is what we are talking about.

So I still stand by the slider being a crappy way to control the game. I take pride in playing every game at least on normal, if not hard. There's something very irksome in having to dumb down the game further in order to get enjoyment from it.

[Khalle]

So this thread made me decide to give Oblivion another try, but I want to disable the auto-level stuff. Can anybody give me the name of the best mod to do that? I got one by Francesco or something, but it seems to be crashing my game (maybe due to not having the 500 MB optional stuff that I can't find a free download spot for?). Any help would be appreciated. Feel free to give me any "must have" mods, too :smallbiggrin:

[Hermit]

So this thread made me decide to give Oblivion another try, but I want to disable the auto-level stuff. Can anybody give me the name of the best mod to do that? I got one by Francesco or something, but it seems to be crashing my game (maybe due to not having the 500 MB optional stuff that I can't find a free download spot for?). Any help would be appreciated. Feel free to give me any "must have" mods, too :smallbiggrin:

Francesco is a good one, although it doesn't remove levelling completely. Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul (OOO), does, however, and makes the game rather more challenging as a result. Alternatively, there's a big project called FCOM which is an amalgamation of OOO, Francesco's, and Martigan's Monster Mod. Details of all can be found on the Bethesda Forums. And while you're at it look into installing the released Unique Landscapes mods. They take areas of land largely devoid of life and turn them into some really awe-inspiring locations.

[Moongoat]

i was wondering is someone could tell me if i have a compatible video card for oblivion. i think its a radeon x350.

[Draik Tempest]

Personally, I believe Daggerfall was infinately better than both of them. The game was incredibly challenging (despite the ability to gain access to Elven gear at level one) with enough space to explore that you had a hard time taking it all in. Yes, the graphics were bad, but it came out a when CDs were just being used.

And story? The plot for Daggerfall was AMAZING! You crashed onto the continent, went into a city haunted by a dead king. If you didn't choose your words carefully you got jacked up, badly. Hell, the most awesome thing was probably that you NEEDED to use the spell Levitate, or the ability to CLIMB. Ya, that's right, I said Climb, you could climb in that game.

Best of all was the fact that you got to choose the ending, anyone from the King of Worms to The Emperor to the Underking, and depending on your choice you either got backstabbed or you got rewarded. And let's not forget that this is game also allowed you to turn into a Vampire or Werewolf (or both :D).

Anyway, I'm done...

[factotum]

And let's not forget that this is game also allowed you to turn into a Vampire or Werewolf (or both :D).


Er...you could definitely do that in Morrowind as well, and I'm pretty sure it was also possible in Oblivion, so not sure why that should be a particularly good selling point for Daggerfall compared to those games!

[Hermit]

Er...you could definitely do that in Morrowind as well, and I'm pretty sure it was also possible in Oblivion, so not sure why that should be a particularly good selling point for Daggerfall compared to those games!

To be honest Oblivion fails in that respect, which was another thing that annoyed me. No Lycanthropy, and while you could get turned into a Vampire there was nothing to do as one. They needed a Vampire faction in there or something to actually make it worthwhile. In the end I only did it so I could complete the cure quest.

Daggerfall was indeed an ace game. Personally I rank Morrowind just above it but it was still brilliant. Hard as nails at times too.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Just got a quick oblivion question: I just got my alchemy to 50, and now know up to 3 effects of an ingredient. Now, at first I thought this was great, but then I realized that I could no longer make certain combinations for poison because now one of the new effects would match another. For instance, lets say ( I dont have any real examples ready) I had an ingredient that originally had Damage Health and Restore Fatigue on it, and another one that had Damage health and Restore Magicka on it. But then, when I reach 50, I now know that the first one also has Shock Resistance, and the second one has Restore Fatigue.... So now when I try and mix these two, I dont get a poison, I get a potion that restores my fatigue and slowly kills me... So, is there any way to be specific in which effects you want? (note that Im on the 360)

[Telok]

So now when I try and mix these two, I dont get a poison, I get a potion that restores my fatigue and slowly kills me... So, is there any way to be specific in which effects you want? (note that Im on the 360)

No.

I made myself a spreadsheet of alchemy ingredients and effects. This produced some useful combinations and information. Buy some trash ingredients and zoom your alchemy to 75 for...

Milk Thistle Seeds, Harrada, Spiddle Stick, Frost Salts

This gives the following effects: Damage Health, Damage Magicka, Silence, Paralyze, Frost Damage.

Useful magic users is...

Bog Beacon Asco Cap, Flax Seeds, Mugwort Seeds, Aloe Vera Leaves

This gives the following effects: Restore Magika, Restore Health, Shield.

[Moongoat]

speaking of vampires, even if they dont have any faction quests. are they improved at all? because the vampires in morrowind sucked, unless you downloaded the good mods.

[factotum]

Just got a quick oblivion question: I just got my alchemy to 50, and now know up to 3 effects of an ingredient. Now, at first I thought this was great, but then I realized that I could no longer make certain combinations for poison because now one of the new effects would match another.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that particular example of Oblivion lunacy. In Morrowind the same combination of ingredients will always yield the same potion, so you can actually guess what's in some items without having a high enough Alchemy skill to see it...made a lot more sense.

[Jimblee]

And therein lies the problem!

Who says you MUST have a system that allows everyone to play and go through the game equally and in the same manner?

My sneaky, mercantile/speech heavy thief should not be able to go willy nilly into every dungeon/ruin/cave/fort he sees. (with careful planning perhaps, but thats it).

My bulky, dopey, tank of a fighter should not be able to cast magic all that well nor get good prices from shopkeepers.

My mage may cast devasting spells at range, but up close with a dagger he's toast.


Actually, you should be allowed to do whatever you want. Thats the fun of Elder Scrolls games - you do whatever you want.

If you don't want to be able to cast spells as a fighter because for some odd reason that prevents you from making a mage, then don't cast spells. If you don't think it makes sense to get good prices as a fighter, then why did you take Mercantile as a class skill? Its really not that hard to make the game the way you want it.


I preferred Oblivion on the level of gameplay. I loved the new sneaking system - I think they landed that perfectly. The physical combat is fantastic as well. Being able to control blocking, smashing, all that? Love it.

I also love regenerating magicka and the never-fail system. I usually find casters to be more of my thing, so these additions really made the game for me. Being a caster in Morrowind was just so.. ridiculous in the beginning. I guess training your magic in ways other than direct combat is part of being a wizard, though. Alchemy, in my books, definitely improved for Oblivion.

The visuals were stunning. You can say "graphics don't make the game" as much as you like, but theres no denying that Oblivion was beautiful.

However, I did like a lot of the character-building ability of Morrowind. I definitely preferred a non-leveled world, where you had to avoid baddies and chests and houses until later. I mean, Oblivion kind of felt like the world catered to you, where in Morrowind you were living in a world. And the magic - so many different spells! Levitation, sound, restore, light, sanctuary, blind, resist and cure, mark, recall, intervention, swift swim, jump, slowfall, damage attribute - all that was taken out of Morrowind. Calm, demoralize, rally, disintegrate, fortify, resist elements, dispel, telekinesis, and drain attribute all pretty much lost their usefulness in Oblivion.

Being a caster in Morrowind gave you so many opportunities - levitation for crossing mountains, telekinesis for theft, intervention to return home, jump and slowfall for quick travel... You can spend hours developing new spells and testing them out, or traveling across the world on foot in order to find that one master who can teach you that spell you've been looking for. In Oblivion, that was all taken out. Sure there are masters you seek out, but they're all in towns, and even if you resist the urge to fast-travel, its hardly a journey.

Enchanting in Morrowind was a lot more open. In Oblivion, it was restricted to only mage guild members, and extremely limited. They completely took out "on use" items, and enchants don't slowly regain charge? In Oblivion, all my items had 0 charge, and every once in a while, when fighting a boss, I would throw on a full Soul Gem. In Morrowind, I had a kajiit merchant who kept around full suits of On Use rings and amulets to defend himself on travels, and a paralysis blade for escaping.

They removed a lot of the guilds in Oblivion. However, I really did enjoy the addition of a plot for each. The Dark Brotherhood was really cool, and really beat out the Morag Tong in my book. I mean, secret lairs, extremely detailed quests with alternate choices and nearly always a scripted option? How cool is that? The "we're evil" thing did get kind of overdone, though. In Morrowind, they were extensions of the detailed world. You live in a world, you make your fame in the world - in some ways its better than Oblivion's, in some ways its worse. In Morrowind, I never ran out of quests, where in Oblivion it was wholly possible to do all of them.



I think I went a little overboard there in my opinions of them. I did play each one for dozens of hours, though, I guess your opinions just rack up along the way

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It is possible to do all the quests in Morrowind. I should know, since I've done it. Granted, you need that big fat guidebook so you don't miss anything, but it can be done!

[Morty]

Actually, you should be allowed to do whatever you want. Thats the fun of Elder Scrolls games - you do whatever you want.


Then why can't I make non-combatant without being punished for it?

[Jimblee]

Then why can't I make non-combatant without being punished for it?

Because non-combatants by definition cannot fare in combat. Oblivion is combat-based, so sorry there. In Morrowind its perfectly possible, its just that you need to be clever about it. Get some rings, or download a mod with mercenaries

[Morty]

Because non-combatants by definition cannot fare in combat. Oblivion is combat-based, so sorry there.

Well, I thought that I can do whatever I want?
Weak attempts on sarcasm aside, "I-can-do-whatever-I-want" in Oblivion is an illusion. Not only because making non-combatant is nigh-impossible, but also because in most cases there's One True Way to complete a quest. Same applies to Morrowind, but on a lesser scale- making non-combat character is easier and you get a bit more choices.

[factotum]

I would agree there. You realise every quest in Oblivion runs on rails when you do that one where you have to track down the bandit gang consisting entirely of women. You'd think, if you were playing a female character, that you'd be able to join them, wouldn't you? Think again...

[Jimblee]

And thats why Morrowind was better than Oblivion on the openness scale

Oblivion is just good gameplay, if you want to get a big sword and kill some trolls. They put the focus of RPG into the G. Morrowind was the RP bit

[LordSintax]

i've played both, but I vastly prefer Morrowind. The whole "house" thing never made much difference to me, since by the end of the game i had so much crap I was using an "abandoned" (heh) bandit cave just to store it all. I wouldnt have minded some kind of armor stand in either game so i could DISPLAY my hard-won complete suit of daedric armor (i played a nightblade, so heavy armor=useless.). however, i hate that "no minor skills" aspect of Oblivion. I mean, no sneak skill for a nightblade??? wtf? I also miss the ultimate cheese factor crap that could be achieved with Morrowind (leaping across the continent in three jumps, permanent everything thanks to soul trap, etc). and for those who keep saying enemies in morrowind didnt level up, false, sirs. They did SO. The storyline was beter in Morrowind, it actually felt like i was completing an epic, world-changing QUEST, not to mention the vast array of misc. stuff you could do, with exploring the dwemer ruins, finding a daedric shortsword and making it into a god-killing monstrosity(yes, i actually did complete the game with a "backpath" character) its not that Oblivion is BAD, yunnerstan, but other than graphics, its just inferior to Morrowind. and no matter how much glitter paint you put on a cowpat....

[Elrond]

i have only played Morrowind and loved it but oblivion sounded pretty similar

[Fin]

For in depth deatail and immersion factor Morrowind wins flat out for the following reasons;

1) Every individual limb was under your influence in terms of what armored it. You could wear a different glove on each hand or different pauldrons. In fact scratch that last part in Morrowind You could wear pauldrons.

2) No instant fast travel which meant you had to decide whether to walk or go and find one of the most awe inspiring sights I have ever seen when walking into the first in game area of any game, a silt strider! Their call was one of the heart breaking yet wonderful cries I have ever heard. They sound so sad, yet I think they know no other life.

3) No enemy levelling, this is my biggest peeve with oblivion. In morrowind certain areas are just too hard until you go away and level, surely this is the best way to encourage player levelling. In oblivion I completed the main quest by level five and by the time I was level 25 the bandits where wearing Ebony Armour! If they just sold the armor they wouldn't have to be bandits any more!

Oblivion is better howver if you want an arcade style slash-em up for the following reasons;

1) Seriously good graphics.
2) Seriously good Physic engine.
3) Seriously good combat system.

Overall though I prefer Morrowind.

[TwoBitWriter]

The enemy leveling is one of the things I love most about oblivion (that and the fact you can actually make a pure mage and be GOOD!)

I hated how ridiculously easy Morrowind got after just a few levels. Oblivion stayed challenging and so I never got bored playing my favorite character (pure mage if you couldn't guess.)

And I never had trouble taking on town guards. It was a difficult fight, but also felt more rewarding when that guard went down like a sack of potatoes!

But I will concede that Morrowind's story was far more engaging, and Oblivion's voice acting got really old after a while.

In the end, I much prefer Oblivion.