Making the Druid not so Zilla

[Sir Iguejo]

Ill start by pointing out the reasons why Im trying to nerf the druid:

Im DMing a campaign based in England before Alfred, the Great (Anglo-Saxon Englaland).
This means: Four kingdoms - Northumbria, Mercia,East Anglia and Wessex and constant viking raids from the north. (Search Danelaw on Wikipedia for detailed info). I twisted history here and there to make magic, monsters and the core races possible.

Edit: Low magic campaign: Common people know that the prayings of some priest are capable of removing diseases, that there are witches in the forest, dragons in the mountains, seamonsters,etc. but most people think that these are not more than legends or false histories

PC's:
Dante Baltazare, the young - LG Human Fighter 1/Christian God Paladin2 - From Italian City-States, on Holy mission.(GitP Forum's Fawsto)
Patrick Villon- NG Halfling Wizard 2 - Frank student researching Monsters swarming Great Britain island
Runt Ulskar - CN Human Barbarian 2/Necromancer 1 - A former viking raider, now studying Necromancy to bring a dear friend back to life
Brunhilde - LG Human Odin Paladin 3 - Danish girl trying to prove her usefulness in combat
And the Source of my problems:
WindSlash - TN Human Druid 3 - From the Celtic lands, trying to exterminate the unnatural monsters that now swarm his home

We have no power-gamer, Combo machine, Batmans or whatever.

The problem:

This party was doing alright, beating easily CR1 encounters, suffering a little on CR3 ones, et cetera
But suddenly the Druid came over spamming Summon Nature Ally hypogriphs and hogging all monsters intended to make the party run in fear.

I think that later on the 6~10 levels, WindSlash will kill everything that moves on the first round, WildShaping and casting bite-of-the-X spells,leaving no fun to the other party members.

I want to slow down his combat abilities, maybe by giving him ShapeShift
from PHBII, maybe cutting down full spellcasting, IDK.

So im asking you some help finding a solution for this matter. I fell that this Druid is unwillingly putting my campaign at risk.



My first idea was giving the Druid the same spells per day as the bard, capping at 6th spell level on 16th class level and giving the ShapeShift ability to him.
So,
any good ideas???


thank you on advance

EDIT - They leveled recently, but I forgot to update my counter-sheets
This explains the hypogriph summoning

[Tempest Fennac]

You could use more enermies to counteract SNA, and when he gets Wildshape, you cold ban Natural Spell and/or the more powerful forms (alternatively, you could make all of the encounters slightly more difficult so that the Druid doesn't seem to be as overpowered as it is).

[Sir Iguejo]

You could use more enermies to counteract SNA, and when he gets Wildshape, you cold ban Natural Spell and/or the more powerful forms (alternatively, you could make all of the encounters slightly more difficult so that the Druid doesn't seem to be as overpowered as it is).

Yeah, I tried this yesterday, but the other party members suffered like hell and the druid ended like 1/2 HP total. Not a good decision for the entire campaign.

[Wordmiser]

I have to say that I love his character's name.[/irony]

Anyway, start by asking him how he's casting second level spells at with a second level Druid.

Then I would go for a nerf along the lines of what you've said (though I would also give him some other benefits with that severe a nerf... maybe rebuild him with 6+Int skills and Track as a bonus feat?)

[Tempest Fennac]

One problem with giving the Druid Bard spell progression is that it would nerf the party's overall healing potential (even if the Paladins have really high Cha, Lay on Hnads would still run out quite quickly early on).

[Chronicled]

Not only is there a PHB2 substitution feature that replaces Wildshape and the Animal Companion (Shapeshift variant), but on the previous page there's a variant that replaces the spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally. I believe it lets a druid spontaneously lose a spell to give fast healing to the party for a number of rounds.

With both of those, your druid should be just fine power-level wise. The Shapeshift variant is cool enough that most players won't argue with the switch unless they really wanted the animal companion (in which case, giving them one that using the stats of the ranger's animal companion isn't especially game-breaking), and you can point out that the party will love him for the spontaneous fast healing.

Hope that helps!

[Tempest Fennac]

See page 39 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf for details on the relevant alternative Druids. I'd agre that the Spontaneous Rejuvenation variant would be the most useful choice considering the other party's classes, but I suppose you could combine the 2 variants to nerf Wildshape and the repeated SNAs.

[Sir Iguejo]

One problem with giving the Druid Bard spell progression is that it would nerf the party's overall healing potential (even if the Paladins have really high Cha, Lay on Hnads would still run out quite quickly early on).

This can be fixed with a little more wands, scrolls, potions and the like


Not only is there a PHB2 substitution feature that replaces Wildshape and the Animal Companion (Shapeshift variant), but on the previous page there's a variant that replaces the spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally. I believe it lets a druid spontaneously lose a spell to give fast healing to the party for a number of rounds.


then the druid would prepare the entire spell list as SNA :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Tempest Fennac]

At least if he did that, he wouldn't be able to use other spells, which would lead to him being unable to contribute effectively if SNA isn't practical.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

yeah...adjusting the power 'up' to compensate for a one or a few really strong party members doesn't 'make it fair' it screws the others. They get relegated to sidekick, or just being helpers while the big boys battle it out.

We had this problem in a LARP...lots of high powered characters, no middle ground, and several starting characters...anything comparable for the lowbies would be demolished by the stronger characters...anythign that could challenge the big guys would murder a lowbie if they were noticed.

We mainly had to separate groups of players to compensate...to find other things people could do. There have to be ways to design challenges so that the other players geta chance to do stuff and aren't always 2nd fiddle...

[Chronicled]

then the druid would prepare the entire spell list as SNA :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Then he'll be like a wizard or cleric that only prepares Summon Monster. Hardly problematic. Just keep an eye on what he's able to summon (hippogriffs with SNA 2? Something is wrong here... either he misread the table or he's cheating), and you'll be fine. It's the spontaneous part of it that makes it so powerful, IMO, since it lets you retain your flexibilty with a myriad of other spells but still have a meatshield or several handy at a moment's notice.

[ZeroNumerous]

Just drop off Wild Shape and don't get him anything in return. Then Druid is just a full-caster with a puppy following him around.

[JackMage666]

I personally like my druid fix. Take away all spellcasting, give them Full BAB, a d10 or d12 HD, and Shapeshift.

EDIT - Of course, they don't have Wildshape.

[Chronicled]

I personally like my druid fix. Take away all spellcasting, give them Full BAB, a d10 or d12 HD, and Shapeshift.

EDIT - Of course, they don't have Wildshape.

Wouldn't that just make them like a Barbarian, but better? I like the concept, but it might need some work.

[Sir Iguejo]

Then he'll be like a wizard or cleric that only prepares Summon Monster. Hardly problematic. Just keep an eye on what he's able to summon (hippogriffs with SNA 2? Something is wrong here... either he misread the table or he's cheating), and you'll be fine. It's the spontaneous part of it that makes it so powerful, IMO, since it lets you retain your flexibilty with a myriad of other spells but still have a meatshield or several handy at a moment's notice.

SRD Summon Natures Ally Table
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyII.htm

Summoned Creature
Bear, black (animal)
Crocodile (animal)
Dire badger
Dire bat
Elemental, Small (any)
Hippogriff
Shark, Medium1 (animal)
Snake, Medium viper (animal)
Squid1 (animal)
Wolverine (animal)


The problem is that they are fighting mostly with bandits (English and Vikings) and Low CR monsters. They can do little against a hippogriff's full attack. It will get easier by level 5, when NPC's get Dispel Magic and PC will be known by the hippo/dire wolf(SNAIII) summoner.

Again: I want to cut down the druid spellcasting or the wildshaping tree, but in a balanced way. I dont buy the fact that druids are full-casters. If I were Monte Cook, they would get weaker/less spells

[Chronicled]

SRD Summon Natures Ally Table
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyII.htm

Summoned Creature
Bear, black (animal)
Crocodile (animal)
Dire badger
Dire bat
Elemental, Small (any)
Hippogriff
Shark, Medium1 (animal)
Snake, Medium viper (animal)
Squid1 (animal)
Wolverine (animal)


The problem is that they are fighting mostly with bandits (English and Vikings) and Low CR monsters. They can do little against a hippogriff's full attack. It will get easier by level 5, when NPC's get Dispel Magic and PC will be known by the hippo/dire wolf(SNAIII) summoner.

Again: I want to cut down the druid spellcasting or the wildshaping tree, but in a balanced way. I dont buy the fact that druids are full-casters. If I were Monte Cook, they would get weaker/less spells

:smallsigh: Here I go not checking my facts again... yep, that means it's time for me to get some sleep.

Perhaps a few enemy summoners are in order? (It figures that he's true neutral and you can't have the Magic Circle against _______ means of stopping summoned critters.)

There's always the tried-and-true anti-caster method of DMing: lots of daily encounters. Your druid can own one or two of them before he's out of spells, after which he'll be contributing much less.

[Tempest Fennac]

That would probably have a negative impact on the Wizard, though. Incidentally, what sort of spells does the Wizard use, and is he specialised?

[Inyssius Tor]

But he's also got a straight wizard, who can't fall back on being a passable tank and commanding his giant deadly wolf.

EDIT: Ninja'd at 3:40 AM!

[JackMage666]

Wouldn't that just make them like a Barbarian, but better? I like the concept, but it might need some work.

Wouldn't a Druid be even just Wildshape be better than a Barbarian?

Even one that trades the Shapeshift for Wildshape is better, mainly due to the spells.

[Sir Iguejo]

The wizard is going full-support and item creator.
so thats out of the question

and making the wizard stronger wouldnt help the paladins and the barb

[ZeroNumerous]

Again: I just advocate removing Wild Shape and giving him nothing in return. Then you have a full caster and his dog.

Summons: Enemy druids exist too, ya know.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Druid variant? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger)
Edit:should work now

[Tempest Fennac]

That link won't work for some reason. Also, Chronicled mentioned the variants and I posted another link to some information about them.

[Sir Iguejo]

Again: I just advocate removing Wild Shape and giving him nothing in return. Then you have a full caster and his dog.

Summons: Enemy druids exist too, ya know.

WildShape is the ability that makes the druid the druid. and its cool. so either shapeshifting or less wildshape uses per day/per week


I dont want my PCs lost between a huge battle of hippogriffs :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Im thinking about giving him the track feat and a weaker animal companion and nerfing the spellcasting.
making him look like a blend of druid and ranger

[Tempest Fennac]

Alternatively, you could try to get him to mult-class as a Ranger for RP purposes (considering how there's a Barbarian/Necromancer in the party, a Druid/ranger wouldn't really look out of place).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

My favorite is the wild shape variant, along with a talk with the player about summoning and how it affects balance. don't ban it, but suggest that it be reserved for hard battles, and that buffs/debuffs are more effective and fun for your allies.

[Inyssius Tor]

... I hate to state the obvious amidst all of these elaborate and drastic alterations, but have you tried removing the hippogriff from the Summon Nature's Ally spell?

Or moving Summon Nature's Ally spells up a level?

Or removing them entirely?

[Tempest Fennac]

That is actually a good point. The problem is with persuading the player that it would be a good idea to do so (the other players would probably agree with removing them, so voting on the issue would be a fair way of doing it). Incidentaly, what's wrong with elaborate suggestions? There's a chance that they may wor out for the best.

[Sir Iguejo]

... I hate to state the obvious amidst all of these elaborate and drastic alterations, but have you tried removing the hippogriff from the Summon Nature's Ally spell?

Or moving Summon Nature's Ally spells up a level?

Or removing them entirely?


There is the Dire Wolf Black Bear, with the same attack modifiers and damage, but a little lower AC.
And this is the druid main weapon at lower levels, so I dont think its a good idea to complete remove SNA. Only one hippo is ok, the problem is that this druid abuses SNA, summoning like 2 hippos + loads of wolves for full attack and flank. Maybe its a good idea just to half the spell duration (1round/level is too much) or capping the number of HD the druid control at Lvl+Wis or just Lvl?


My favorite is the wild shape variant, along with a talk with the player about summoning and how it affects balance. don't ban it, but suggest that it be reserved for hard battles, and that buffs/debuffs are more effective and fun for your allies.

Alternatively, you could try to get him to mult-class as a Ranger for RP purposes (considering how there's a Barbarian/Necromancer in the party, a Druid/ranger wouldn't really look out of place).

Ill try that... thanks:smallwink: :smallwink: :smallwink:

edit: wrote wolf but I meant bear

[Chronicled]

Wouldn't a Druid be even just Wildshape be better than a Barbarian?

Even one that trades the Shapeshift for Wildshape is better, mainly due to the spells.

The spells make them better, but a barbarian can still out-melee them to a certain extent since the bonuses granted by Shapeshift are enhancement and don't stack with their spells. The medium BAB and d8 HD leave much to be desired when they can't be buffed more than what the animal form gives (whereas the barbarian can rage and get Bull's Strength, for instance). If a druid had full BAB and a d12, they'd be trading typeless bonuses for the ability to have them all day long. Then it'd just be a comparison of the special abilities and saves. At least with the druid as is, the barbarian is the most effective killing machine during the first few levels (arguably edging out the armored riding dog+druid, even).

[Tempest Fennac]

Considering what the Barbarian wants to do from an RP perspective, wouldn't multi-classing as a Cleric be a better idea considering what Necromancy spells do?

[Sir Iguejo]

Considering what the Barbarian wants to do from an RP perspective, wouldn't multi-classing as a Cleric be a better idea considering what Necromancy spells do?

Yes, I told him so, but he (the player) said necromancy, as being the school of magic that treats life and dead, is a better RP choice.

And he wants to summon undead too. :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:

[JackMage666]

The spells make them better, but a barbarian can still out-melee them to a certain extent since the bonuses granted by Shapeshift are enhancement and don't stack with their spells. The medium BAB and d8 HD leave much to be desired when they can't be buffed more than what the animal form gives (whereas the barbarian can rage and get Bull's Strength, for instance). If a druid had full BAB and a d12, they'd be trading typeless bonuses for the ability to have them all day long. Then it'd just be a comparison of the special abilities and saves. At least with the druid as is, the barbarian is the most effective killing machine during the first few levels (arguably edging out the armored riding dog+druid, even).

Also take into account a Barbarian can have equipment, though. When a Druid shapeshifts or whildshapes, it loses that options (save for armor, with a Wilding Clasp or Wild enhancement). So, while a Barbarian can use a +6 Belt of Magnificence, a Shifted Druid can't.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for telling me. Did he consider taking levels in Battle Sorcerer while focusing on Necromancy instead so that he could still use magic in light armour while not losing as much BAB while getting a d8 HD? Can't ape shapes use some types of equipment effectively? That would help to an extent. Capping the HD of the creatures the Drui can controll would be a good idea as well.

[pantoffelheld]

There is the Dire Wolf Black Bear, with the same attack modifiers and damage, but a little lower AC.
And this is the druid main weapon at lower levels, so I dont think its a good idea to complete remove SNA. Only one hippo is ok, the problem is that this druid abuses SNA, summoning like 2 hippos + loads of wolves for full attack and flank. Maybe its a good idea just to half the spell duration (1round/level is too much) or capping the number of HD the druid control at Lvl+Wis or just Lvl?




Ill try that... thanks:smallwink: :smallwink: :smallwink:

edit: wrote wolf but I meant bear

I think that's a great idea! It doesn't sound unreasonable harsh, while still preventing the Druid from spamming SNA. Also note that SNA has a casting time of 1 full round action, which means you've got plenty of time to interrupt it.

[Sir Iguejo]

Thanks for telling me. Did he consider taking levels in Battle Sorcerer while focusing on Necromancy instead so that he could still use magic in light armour while not losing as much BAB while getting a d8 HD? Can't ape shapes use some types of equipment effectively? That would help to an extent.

thats a good idea. but he's using some masterwork armor that have 10% arcane spell failure chance. Thats only 1 or 2 on d20 (or 1 on d10, we use this) so its rare to get a fumble


I think that's a great idea! It doesn't sound unreasonable harsh, while still preventing the Druid from spamming SNA. Also note that SNA has a casting time of 1 full round action, which means you've got plenty of time to interrupt it.


yes, but this would only solve SNA spamming, not the druidzilla menace to my campaign

[Tempest Fennac]

Okay (I thought I'd suggest it for optimisation purpose, as well as the fact that even a 10% failure chance could be disasterous).

[ZeroNumerous]

WildShape is the ability that makes the druid the druid. and its cool. so either shapeshifting or less wildshape uses per day/per week

... No, what makes the druid is an inherent connection to nature. Read your fluff.


I dont want my PCs lost between a huge battle of hippogriffs :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Counterspell. It only takes a standard action to ready.

Honestly, plenty of people have suggested some very good ideas. Pick one and run with it.

[Sir Iguejo]

... No, what makes the druid is an inherent connection to nature. Read your fluff.



Counterspell. It only takes a standard action to ready.

Honestly, plenty of people have suggested some very good ideas. Pick one and run with it.

what i meant was that the wildshape is the ability that makes the druid unique, preety much like the rage makes barbarians the barbarians, sneak attack to rogues and smite evil for paladins.


and repeated counterspell would piss out my player

I already picked 2 or 3 ideas and Im working on them. if you have one more to add, I would thank you

[ZeroNumerous]

what i meant was that the wildshape is the ability that makes the druid unique, preety much like the rage makes barbarians the barbarians, sneak attack to rogues and smite evil for paladins.

So this Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) doesn't get Wild Shape? Bear Warrior can't Wild Shape? Master of Many Forms doesn't advance Wild Shape progression? Class abilities do not make a class.

FYI: Druids can get rage, fighters can get sneak attack, and smite evil can be done by anything with the Celestial Template.


and repeated counterspell would piss out my player

He'll stop using SNA real quickly then, won't he?

[Inyssius Tor]

Incidentaly, what's wrong with elaborate suggestions? There's a chance that they may wor out for the best.
Well, I have no problem with elaborate modifications to the game, but I think you've answered your own question:
The problem is with persuading the player that it would be a good idea to do so.
If this is a problem when slightly altering or removing a single spell, it might be a little more of a problem when removing a sizable amount of the Druid's class features and completely redesigning everything that remains. Compare the following irritatingly anvilicious dramatizations:


"Hi WindSlash! I'm sorry, but your use of the summon nature's ally spell has completely demolished every encounter I've thrown at you. The other players would all like a chance to contribute, and you've clearly shown that the spell is overpowered. From now on, you can only have X summoned allies at a time."
"Hi WindSlash! I'm sorry, but your use of the summon nature's ally spell has completely demolished every encounter I've thrown at you. The other players would all like a chance to contribute, and you've clearly shown that the spell is overpowered. So now I've totally, severely weakened your spellcasting ability--you can't cast second-level spells, and won't be able to again until next level, and you won't be able to cast third-level spells until seventh level, and you'll never be able to cast seventh-level or higher spells, and I'm replacing your Wildshape with the PHBII Shapeshift variant, and your animal companion is less powerful now. Oh, and you can only have X summoned allies at a time--but I'm going to give you the Track feat for free!"


EDIT: I know I would be a little tiny bit irritated, if I showed up at a game one day and was told that, since the DM thought (without telling me) I was overusing one pretty-powerful spell, my entire class from first to twentieth level had been radically altered (and, for the most part, seriously nerfed) without my knowledge or consent.


Yes, I told him so, but he (the player) said necromancy, as being the school of magic that treats life and dead, is a better RP choice.

Necromancer clerics deal with the necromancy school whenever they cast a necromancy spell. Schools of magic aren't exclusive to the wizard--they're attributes of reality.

[Tempest Fennac]

I know what you mean about removing large amounts of class features (that's why I was suggesting using variants or nerfing single skills). Which solutions do you think you'll try, Sir Iguejo?

[Sir Iguejo]

So this Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) doesn't get Wild Shape? Bear Warrior can't Wild Shape? Master of Many Forms doesn't advance Wild Shape progression? Class abilities do not make a class.

FYI: Druids can get rage, fighters can get sneak attack, and smite evil can be done by anything with the Celestial Template.



He'll stop using SNA real quickly then, won't he?

you know what I meant. Stop playing the 6yo complaining boy.

Any other useful ideas??


If this is a problem when slightly altering or removing a single spell, it might be a little more of a problem when removing a sizable amount of the Druid's class features and completely redesigning everything that remains. Compare the following irritatingly anvilicious dramatizations:

"Hi WindSlash! I'm sorry, but your use of the summon nature's ally spell has completely demolished every encounter I've thrown at you. The other players would all like a chance to contribute, and you've clearly shown that the spell is overpowered. From now on, you can only have X summoned allies at a time."
"Hi WindSlash! I'm sorry, but your use of the summon nature's ally spell has completely demolished every encounter I've thrown at you. The other players would all like a chance to contribute, and you've clearly shown that the spell is overpowered. So now I've totally, severely weakened your spellcasting ability--you can't cast second-level spells, and won't be able to again until next level, and you won't be able to cast third-level spells until seventh level, and you'll never be able to cast seventh-level or higher spells, and I'm replacing your Wildshape with the PHBII Shapeshift variant, and your animal companion is less powerful now. Oh, and you can only have X summoned allies at a time--but I'm going to give you the Track feat for free!"


I see what you mean.I should have modified the druid before we started playing. But I plan on nerfing only SNA for the moment, or asking him just to stop spamming it.

Unfortunately, the druid will eventually become stronger than the other party members again on higher levels, and I may face the same problem: Druid owns, other players watch.


Necromancer clerics deal with the necromancy school whenever they cast a necromancy spell. Schools of magic aren't exclusive to the wizard--they're attributes of reality.

I know it. He knows it. He choose the wizard class so he would deal with ancient danish rune reading, instead of praying for Hel : a 100% roleplaying decision, which I totally support. I think that roleplay should define class, not class should define roleplaying

[Sir Iguejo]

I know what you mean about removing large amounts of class features (that's why I was suggesting using variants or nerfing single skills). Which solutions do you think you'll try, Sir Iguejo?

First Ill talk to the druid player and ask him to stop spamming SNA. If the Druid become unbalanced again at higher levels, Ill suggest a multiclass ranger. If this doesnt stop the zilla, Shapeshifting or less spells per day. If this is not enough, pun-pun will rise and kill WindSlash, and the player create another char

[tggdan3]

How to stop your druid from being so awesome?

Well, protection vs evil/good/law/chaos will prevent physical contact from summoned creatures (as will magic circle) making his summons unable to attack some enemies.

Any problem with summon nature ally will also occur with any wizard/sorcerer/cleric and summon monster anyway.

The wild shape ability is good, but at 9th level a wizard's polymorph spell (or alter self at 3rd level) can be just as much of a buff. remember, the druids don't get special quialities of the new form (pounce/scent/etc).

Druids also have special RP prohibitions (like paladins). Bandits can easily set the woods on fire to distract the druid from fighting while they take down the PCs.

[Sir Iguejo]

How to stop your druid from being so awesome?

Well, protection vs evil/good/law/chaos will prevent physical contact from summoned creatures (as will magic circle) making his summons unable to attack some enemies.

Any problem with summon nature ally will also occur with any wizard/sorcerer/cleric and summon monster anyway.

The wild shape ability is good, but at 9th level a wizard's polymorph spell (or alter self at 3rd level) can be just as much of a buff. remember, the druids don't get special quialities of the new form (pounce/scent/etc).

Druids also have special RP prohibitions (like paladins). Bandits can easily set the woods on fire to distract the druid from fighting while they take down the PCs.

these are all good ways for taking the druid out of a single encounter. And I shall use some of them on important battles (thanks for the ideas:smallsmile: ), but i cant drive the druid away from every encounter. :smallfrown:

[DeathQuaker]

Good suggestions all around. I like the idea of using Shapeshift, or alternatively allowing Wildshape but limiting spellcasting to Bard progression (there are other ways to find healing, and if it's Dark Ages England, difficulty healing should be part of the feel anyway). Alternatively, getting rid of Wildshape but leaving full spellcasting and maybe altering or tweaking some other druid ability so he's not nerfed. Once you determine a few options of what's best, I'd give the player the choice of which alteration to the classs he wants to take.

As for dealing with summoning -- the main thing is, as indicated, let your enemies have access to similar magic and/or make them smart and prepared for those kind of attacks. Give them things like tanglefoot bags and nets to pull the hippogriffs out of the sky, other spells and abilities to frighten, control, or drive off other summoned creatures.

[ZeroNumerous]

you know what I meant. Stop playing the 6yo complaining boy.

Any other useful ideas??

First off, I'm asking you not to flame.

Second, as I said before people have suggested very good fixes for the druid problem. But "it makes the druid a druid" and "my player will get angry" aren't valid excuses for not using them.

SNA can be counterspelled, this is why you don't use one spell over and over and over again. It's part of the game.

You can remove Wild Shape and just leave the druid as a primary caster to make your melee classes feel less shafted by having a druid around.

Adding in Shapeshift at this level would certainly make any player more angry than counterspell ever will.

"So I lose the dog that had been following me around for X days and gain an ability I should have had at level 1?"

versus

"Oh, he counterspelled it? I cast Shillelagh on my quarterstaff and move in to smack him in the face."

Tggdan3:

Protection from X only functions against summoned creatures of X alignment. All animals(and elementals) are true neutral, and thus can't be edged out by Protection from X.

As for setting the woods on fire, nothing says the Druid has to run over and try and put the fire out. None of his class abilities even allow him to do so, short of summoning a Water Elemental. Fire is part of the natural order, it happens, to stop it would actually be going against the natural order of things.

Finally, Summon Nature's Ally (X) is significantly better than Summon Monster (X). Why? Because Protection from (X) doesn't protect you from any useful Summon Nature's Ally (X) monster. A wizard/cleric who uses Summon Monster (X) exclusively would be unable to buff or use any of the better spells available, but a druid can spontaneously convert spells into Summon Nature's Ally.

[Jaappie]

First off, I'm asking you not to flame.

Second, as I said before people have suggested very good fixes for the druid problem. But "it makes the druid a druid" and "my player will get angry" aren't valid excuses for not using them.

Well actually this game is about having fun so figuring out a way that makes everyone (reasonably) happy is not completely out of place.

[Saph]

Hmm. Sounds an awful lot like my group. Your Druid uses pretty much the same tactics that I do.

Reading between the lines, I get the impression that the Druid's player is probably a lot more experienced/optimisation-interested than the other players, who are more interested in RP. Hippogriffs are probably the most powerful monsters on the SNA II list - I know, because I went through the list with a fine tooth comb when I was building my own Druid. :P Let me guess, he has Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning, too? That's what really pushes the SNA spells over the top.

First, some good news - the Druid isn't going to get significantly powerful in melee until he hits level 8. At levels 5-7, the most he can do is wildshape into a Black Bear which, while decent, is going to be weaker than the paladins.

Second, I don't recommend changing the class. It's very frustrating to have a character progression mapped out and then be told that the PHB table suddenly doesn't apply to you anymore. Discuss it with the player if you like, but don't be surprised if he seems upset.

Instead, I'd recommend in-game solutions:

• Beef up encounters a bit, and have the enemies mainly target the summoned monsters. (After all, a giant hippogriff is much more intimidating than a guy with a sword. You're going to want to kill it first.) This will neutralise the SNAs to some degree, as they have poor AC and go down fast if attacked a lot, but won't hurt the rest of the party (as the animals will be drawing fire away from them).

• Have enemies attack the druid while he's doing his 1-round casting time spells. This is just common sense.

• Assuming that magic isn't a secret and there's some exchange of information in your world, all enemies with some intelligence should know how dangerous druids are. Thus, when they see a guy in woodsy clothing with a pet dog chanting summoning spells, they should make him their first priority. Again, this is common sense.

• Have longer battles. At level 3, SNA spells only last 3 rounds. If you're fighting a 15-round battle against several groups of enemies, that means the hippogriffs aren't going to last very long.


And so on. This'll give you some time to reevaluate things and see what works and what doesn't. Any of that help?

- Saph

[Sir Iguejo]

First off, I'm asking you not to flame.

Im not flaming. I was just asking (for the 2nd time) you to contribute with new ideas on slowing down the druidzilla instead of telling me what makes a class or what not, or hitting the same ideas again and again and again.


Second, as I said before people have suggested very good fixes for the druid problem. But "it makes the druid a druid" and "my player will get angry" aren't valid excuses for not using them.

What I say is:
(1) WildShape (or ShapeShifting) is a unique druid ability (among core classes) and should not be completely removed. Not in my campaign world. PERIOD.
(2) My player will get angry is the most valid excuse here, for im making all this changes so my players shall have fun.


SNA can be counterspelled, this is why you don't use one spell over and over and over again. It's part of the game.

So, from now on, I should put a sorcerer with Improved counterspelling, all slots taken by dispel magic or conjuration magic, and only with readied actions against the druid on about every encounter the group faces? Counterspelling is an option, but not for every encounter.

Adding in Shapeshift at this level would certainly make any player more angry than counterspell ever will.

"So I lose the dog that had been following me around for X days and gain an ability I should have had at level 1?"

versus

"Oh, he counterspelled it? I cast Shillelagh on my quarterstaff and move in to smack him in the face."


"Ok, if the other players are uncomfortable with the druid overpowers, I accept the Shapeshift. Its cool to change as a free action to whatever I like. Ill have my riding dog as a common trained animal, then"

vs

"WTF! He counterspelled me AGAIN??? for the 25462165th time????"


As for setting the woods on fire, nothing says the Druid has to run over and try and put the fire out. None of his class abilities even allow him to do so, short of summoning a Water Elemental. Fire is part of the natural order, it happens, to stop it would actually be going against the natural order of things.


... No, what makes the druid is an inherent connection to nature. Read your fluff.

Bandits setting fire to the forest is definately NOT natural. And yours truly what-makes-the-druid-the-druid-is-an-inherent-connection-to-nature wouldnt allow the druid just to watch his homelands on fire


Finally, Summon Nature's Ally (X) is significantly better than Summon Monster (X). Why? Because Protection from (X) doesn't protect you from any useful Summon Nature's Ally (X) monster. A wizard/cleric who uses Summon Monster (X) exclusively would be unable to buff or use any of the better spells available, but a druid can spontaneously convert spells into Summon Nature's Ally.

Agreed
The Summoned Monster is also affected by the protection/magic circle spells, since he has an alligment

[Sir Iguejo]

Hmm. Sounds an awful lot like my group. Your Druid uses pretty much the same tactics that I do.

Reading between the lines, I get the impression that the Druid's player is probably a lot more experienced/optimisation-interested than the other players, who are more interested in RP. Hippogriffs are probably the most powerful monsters on the SNA II list - I know, because I went through the list with a fine tooth comb when I was building my own Druid. :P Let me guess, he has Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning, too? That's what really pushes the SNA spells over the top.

First, some good news - the Druid isn't going to get significantly powerful in melee until he hits level 8. At levels 5-7, the most he can do is wildshape into a Black Bear which, while decent, is going to be weaker than the paladins.

Second, I don't recommend changing the class. It's very frustrating to have a character progression mapped out and then be told that the PHB table suddenly doesn't apply to you anymore. Discuss it with the player if you like, but don't be surprised if he seems upset.

Instead, I'd recommend in-game solutions:

• Beef up encounters a bit, and have the enemies mainly target the summoned monsters. (After all, a giant hippogriff is much more intimidating than a guy with a sword. You're going to want to kill it first.) This will neutralise the SNAs to some degree, as they have poor AC and go down fast if attacked a lot, but won't hurt the rest of the party (as the animals will be drawing fire away from them).

• Have enemies attack the druid while he's doing his 1-round casting time spells. This is just common sense.

• Assuming that magic isn't a secret and there's some exchange of information in your world, all enemies with some intelligence should know how dangerous druids are. Thus, when they see a guy in woodsy clothing with a pet dog chanting summoning spells, they should make him their first priority. Again, this is common sense.

• Have longer battles. At level 3, SNA spells only last 3 rounds. If you're fighting a 15-round battle against several groups of enemies, that means the hippogriffs aren't going to last very long.


And so on. This'll give you some time to reevaluate things and see what works and what doesn't. Any of that help?

- Saph

very interesting hints Saph. But our druid is not some optimization-power-gaming guy, he just made the druid focused on SNA spells. And I really doubt he has mapped all his progression until 20th

about your in-game solutions:

I already tried to slightly increase the difficulty of my encounters, but the rest of the party suffered a lot.

I have the NPC attacking the druid, but I cant just swarm him every encounter. Its DM meta-gaming to say "Druids are stronger, so Ill focus my attacks on them"

And if I were a Dark-age soldier, I would run in fear when I saw a flying horse full attacking my companions.

But these are valid tactics for like 1 out of 4 encounters, so this should be helpful. thanks:smallwink:

Longer-Battles: very interesting idea. Can be applied on about 70% of the encounters and the players arent going even to notice. Problem is: Lvl 3 drd has 2 2nd level spells (1 + 1bonus high wis) and 3 1st level. summoning 2 by 2 (for flank reasons) that would cover about 6 to 9 rounds. The hippogriphs and wolves can kill about 5 or 6 CR3 in that time, making the EL a minimum of 8, giving the group about 1000xp/PC/battle. I dont want my PC to hit lvl 20 so quickly.
Multiple encounters would be better, as the druid would summon his hippos in the 1st one, overkilling weak monsters and having a hard time against okCR ones

very good post indeed:smallbiggrin:

[Saph]

I have the NPC attacking the druid, but I cant just swarm him every encounter. Its DM meta-gaming to say "Druids are stronger, so Ill focus my attacks on them"

This was why I brought up the issue of how much exchange of information there is in your game world. If the existence of druids isn't a secret, then intelligent enemies (Int 12 or more, say) should know that they summon dangerous things. This isn't DM metagaming, this is just having a consistent world.


And if I were a Dark-age soldier, I would run in fear when I saw a flying horse full attacking my companions.

But this is a Dark-Age-with-magic game, right? Of course, if magic is largely unknown, then this means that spellcasters have an advantage.

Of course, this could work in your favour, too.

Round 1: Enemies attack, Druid summons.
Round 2: Hippogriff appears. Enemies run.
Rounds 3-5: Hippogriff chases the enemies, getting single attacks on them and killing one or two. The rest of the party are left behind.
Round 6: Hippogriff vanishes. The fight's still going, except now the two groups are separated and strung-out.

And to repeat one of the simple tactics: ranged weapons. Have enemies shoot the druid with their longbows once he starts casting. It'll have a good chance of disrupting the spell and again, is very much common sense (anyone in a D&D world who lives very long knows that when an enemy starts chanting a spell, you should either shut him up quick or run).

- Saph

[Tormsskull]

I'm going to second Saph's suggestion of ranged combat. At the very least it prevents 1 round of full attacks by the hippo.

Also, when it make sense, spread the enemies out. If they are attacking the PCs from multiple directions, the druid is going to have to send his SNA's one way or another, and therefore they won't simply be able to mop up groups of enemies with their full attacks.

Because of the long cast time, ranged enemies should have a decent chance of hitting the druid and increasing the concentration DC. Also, take a look at some of the special items in the PHB. I'm thinking specifically of the thunderstone. I think it has a chance of causing deafness, which hampers spellcasting. Maybe the bandits would have some of those?

[Wordmiser]

Bandits setting fire to the forest is definately NOT natural. And yours truly what-makes-the-druid-the-druid-is-an-inherent-connection-to-nature wouldnt allow the druid just to watch his homelands on fireIf it happens, it's natural.

And the longer encounters/more encounters per day methods are probably your best bets here: it sounds like your Druid is spamming half of his spells/day in each encounter. This might mean you need to drop a Wizard wand or two on the party to keep the other caster busy with his low-level lack of spells.

The one modification I'd give him would be the "Druidic Avenger" thing. The Animal Companion really shouldn't exist.

[Crow]

Can Druids wild shape into HD advanced crittters?

[ZeroNumerous]

Im not flaming.

Calling me a 6 year old isn't flaming?


So, from now on, I should put a sorcerer with Improved counterspelling, all slots taken by dispel magic or conjuration magic, and only with readied actions against the druid on about every encounter the group faces? Counterspelling is an option, but not for every encounter.

If you're doing it every encounter, that would be just as annoying as giving Improved Trip to every enemy your fighter faces. It's not an every encounter thing, but it's entirely possible to do so.


"Ok, if the other players are uncomfortable with the druid overpowers, I accept the Shapeshift. Its cool to change as a free action to whatever I like. Ill have my riding dog as a common trained animal, then"

Thats called talking to your player, one of the ideas suggested in this thread. If thats what you're going to do, then the thread has served it's purpose and this argument is moot. If you're just going to arbiturarily impose Shapeshift onto a druid before he even gets Wild Shape, then it's hardly fair for the player.


"WTF! He counterspelled me AGAIN??? for the 25462165th time????"

If he's still trying to cast SNA every single spell, then Pavlov would have loved to meet this guy.


Bandits setting fire to the forest is definately NOT natural. And yours truly what-makes-the-druid-the-druid-is-an-inherent-connection-to-nature wouldnt allow the druid just to watch his homelands on fire

Fire is natural. It happens. It burns. Interfering with the natural work of the fire would be going against the natural order. Like I said before, his only real recourse would be killing the bandits for setting the fire.

How long as this group been "in" the game world? Are they staying more or less in the same area? Would Bandit X realize "Hey, that guy is that one druid/paladin/what-have-you from that one town over there"?

If the group is more or less well known in an area, then you can make the encounters harder without increasing the CR by having an intelligent enemy attack them.

Lets say a group of bandits want their stuff(they are ECL 3, thats great gold for lowbie bandits).

So they set up an ambush along a road or area the PCs travel through alot. They hide in the underbrush with longbows(or crossbows) and wait until the PCs pass-by. All the sudden, one of them uses a readied action to fire a crossbow bolt at whoever looks the most dangerous. Then he uses his normal round to run like hell.

The PCs would, logically, chase him. Have the rest of the group pop-up and fire at their backs. When the PCs return to fight the new arrivals, the bandits continually move away and fire off their little bows. Don't have them cluster up, but don't ever give a single PC a moment to cast any full-round action spells. If they don't keep up, then they fall off the map.

Alternatively, use mounted soldiers. Have them flee while firing bows at their enemy. Remember that SNA has a range of 30, but even a shortbow has 60ft. As long as every guy is moving and firing at least one arrow at every PC, then Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally suddenly becomes a less attractive prospect.

[Aquillion]

There is the Dire Wolf Black Bear, with the same attack modifiers and damage, but a little lower AC.
And this is the druid main weapon at lower levels, so I dont think its a good idea to complete remove SNA. Only one hippo is ok, the problem is that this druid abuses SNA, summoning like 2 hippos + loads of wolves for full attack and flank. Maybe its a good idea just to half the spell duration (1round/level is too much) or capping the number of HD the druid control at Lvl+Wis or just Lvl?Why not just say the druid can only have on SNA out at once? Tell them their pact with the wild can only be called on responsibly to a limited extent without endangering the wildlands and blah blah blah.

[Fawsto]

I Must seccond Saph for the Suggestions.

I Know I shouldn't be coming here due to the fact that I am Roleplaying Dante Baltazare, but I had to, since, if I can say that, I am mostly the "powergamer" in our group (although all my characters are not killing machines, they are just optimized in the best I can think of, but they still are totally roleplay interesting characters), I know what is possible to the Druid to do when he notices the few breaches out there. We all know what happens.

Longer Battles: Sweet (then pehaps my Kill Count will rise from the current 3 it bears :smalltongue: ), I am fond of hit and run tatics that will prolongate the battle. Also the group has a decent long range arsenal. My character possess a Composite Longbow (+ 3 strg) that would be useful on any Long-Range-Mage-Moderatly-Free Encounter. Although my character has a Dex 10 score, he does possess a + 3 to hit due to BAB. What I mean is that the group has long reange firepower to sustain such thing.

I am a personal fan to remove Natural Spell (since it will be a readache later on) or making the PHBII variant so the Druid ability scores won't become irrelevant after some time.

By the time I helped the druid to select augment summoning I had no idea I would be creating such a problem... My mistake :smallbiggrin:

Right now we are facing undeads. Probably the Undead BBEG hiding in the depths of the castle we are about to storm will wipe us out if we don't stand side by side with the Druid... Unfortuantly, he is our MVP...

I am liking the ideas. And don't worry Sir Iguejo, I wont tell anyone about any ideas poossibly gathered around. I will roleplay them properly. :smallbiggrin:

[Sir Iguejo]

Thats called talking to your player, one of the ideas suggested in this thread. If thats what you're going to do, then the thread has served it's purpose and this argument is moot. If you're just going to arbiturarily impose Shapeshift onto a druid before he even gets Wild Shape, then it's hardly fair for the player.

First Ill talk to the druid player and ask him to stop spamming SNA. If the Druid become unbalanced again at higher levels, Ill suggest a multiclass ranger. If this doesnt stop the zilla, Shapeshifting or less spells per day. If this is not enough, pun-pun will rise and kill WindSlash, and the player create another char


Fire is natural. It happens. It burns. Interfering with the natural work of the fire would be going against the natural order. Like I said before, his only real recourse would be killing the bandits for setting the fire.

How long as this group been "in" the game world? Are they staying more or less in the same area? Would Bandit X realize "Hey, that guy is that one druid/paladin/what-have-you from that one town over there"?

If the group is more or less well known in an area, then you can make the encounters harder without increasing the CR by having an intelligent enemy attack them.

Lets say a group of bandits want their stuff(they are ECL 3, thats great gold for lowbie bandits).

So they set up an ambush along a road or area the PCs travel through alot. They hide in the underbrush with longbows(or crossbows) and wait until the PCs pass-by. All the sudden, one of them uses a readied action to fire a crossbow bolt at whoever looks the most dangerous. Then he uses his normal round to run like hell.

The PCs would, logically, chase him. Have the rest of the group pop-up and fire at their backs. When the PCs return to fight the new arrivals, the bandits continually move away and fire off their little bows. Don't have them cluster up, but don't ever give a single PC a moment to cast any full-round action spells. If they don't keep up, then they fall off the map.

Alternatively, use mounted soldiers. Have them flee while firing bows at their enemy. Remember that SNA has a range of 30, but even a shortbow has 60ft. As long as every guy is moving and firing at least one arrow at every PC, then Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally suddenly becomes a less attractive prospect.

Thats a great idea, thanks

Unfortunately, the PCs are not yet so known at the area, but they will become soon, so Ill use this kind of encounter. And Fawsto now knows whats going to happen, so Ill wait for him to forget this.:smallwink:



@ the "fire is natural" guys:

yes, forest fire is natural when its provoked by some thunder or other natural cause. Bandits are not a natural cause. A TN druid would firstly chase the bandits and punish them, then he would see the damages done to the forest and try to repare them. At least in my world.