Thoughts - Angels

[The Unknown]

A thought is a fleeting memory of a second, past what is now, and the thought is not the same as before

This is one of my more faded memories, drowned in booze and the celebration of the new year

The man who wrote this I do not recognize, but the name is mine:

--

[email protected] siger:
Good is not EASY!
Budly siger:
No?
[email protected] siger:
Good, is not just cuddly bunnies!
Budly siger:
...Wha..
[email protected] siger:
Why dont they get it?!
[email protected] siger:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75079.jpg
[email protected] siger:
Quiz, what is that?
Budly siger:
Its that...chaotic angel..
[email protected] siger:
No
Budly siger:
Its a...erhm..:Boed?
[email protected] siger:
That, is Raziel, Arch Throne Archon of the Fifth Heaven of Celestia, Lawful Good, Angel of Judgement

That, is an angel!
[email protected] siger:
That is an angel damnit!
Budly siger:
xD
[email protected] siger:
And angel is not some kind of girly girly thing which likes to pick flowers!
[email protected] siger:
THAT is an angel!
[email protected] siger:
Sword Archon, Wrath Eladrin
[email protected] siger:
Lawful Good, Chaotic Good
[email protected] siger:
All angels!
[email protected] siger:
Judgement spreading, war-on-evil angels!
Budly siger:
Eladrin! Yeah!
[email protected] siger:
You ever seen an angel in rage?
[email protected] siger:
Two seconds of just looking at it and you will BEG being eaten by a Balor!
[email protected] siger:
The Celestial justice and light, the beauty itself shining from its form, the wrath, the rage
[email protected] siger:
Is enough to BLIND a grown man
Budly siger:
Wow!
Budly siger:
They do look...demon like...
Budly siger:
Heh!
[email protected] siger:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75076.jpg
[email protected] siger:
Domiel the Mercy Bringer, Second Heaven of Celestia
Budly siger:
That angel wont end up sleeping with a Erinyes..
[email protected] siger:
Lawful Good, throne archon
[email protected] siger:
Barachiel, The messenger, First heaven of Celestia, Lawful Good!
[email protected] siger:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75075.jpg
[email protected] siger:
Throne Archon!
Budly siger:
Wow
[email protected] siger:
Wrath of Good
[email protected] siger:
Put a Guardinal two seconds into a little room with a devil, two seconds later you will find it eating down the last of the Devils blood, smeared all over its body, and the devils insides and gore splattered upont he walls
[email protected] siger:
And thats the peaceful celestials!
[email protected] siger:
That is the "Cuddly bunnies" people think Angels are!
Budly siger:
...They eat devils!?
[email protected] siger:
Figurely speaking...
[email protected] siger:
More symbolic so then to sustenence themselves
Budly siger:
xD
[email protected] siger:
They dont need to eat
Budly siger:
Ok!
Budly siger:
Since I Saw it as a rather bad...act to eat devil..
[email protected] siger:
But yes, SOME angels do drink their blood...
[email protected] siger:
To show perhaps, how they act towards them
[email protected] siger:
They really hate Devils
Budly siger:
Wow
[email protected] siger:
My god..
[email protected] siger:
Noobs
[email protected] siger:
They have no idea
[email protected] siger:
You cant tempt a Angel
[email protected] siger:
And do you know why they are as they are?
[email protected] siger:
Do you know WHY he angels act as they do?
[email protected] siger:
Do you know how it is.. To be as such...
[email protected] siger:
And to KNOW, that no matter what you do, you will always lose in the end
[email protected] siger:
No matter what you do, what you fight for, is a lost cause
[email protected] siger:
Evil will always win
Budly siger:
The Angels feel that?
Budly siger:
Why?
[email protected] siger:
There isnt a single angel who dosnt know that Good is a lost cause, and that evil will always win in the end...
[email protected] siger:
THink of the anger it inspires
[email protected] siger:
Think of how it feels, that everything you are, and everything you fight for
[email protected] siger:
Is slowly dying
[email protected] siger:
And the ones you NEED to protect, are the ones who have started it all
[email protected] siger:
The ones you love enough to do these things for...
[email protected] siger:
And everyday, more of your brothers join everything you hate
[email protected] siger:
Everyday another angel falls
[email protected] siger:
Everyday another one is too weak to continue trying
[email protected] siger:
That is angels
Budly siger:
The Celestial world is dying?
[email protected] siger:
Goodness itself, more then the heavens, always has been
Budly siger:
I thought It was on match with Baator
[email protected] siger:
There is no doubt there, not between angels nor devils
[email protected] siger:
The Devils and Demons have already won
[email protected] siger:
Theres no reason to fight
[email protected] siger:
The only thing the angels can do is... Win time
Budly siger:
Wait? Where does it stand its over for the Celestial world? Whats the reason then..what motivate on to play good...nothign
[email protected] siger:
I think perhaps...
0.0001% of all mortals are genuinely Good aligned...
12% are evil aligned
Rest are neutral
[email protected] siger:
The Celestial world has always been dying, Budly
[email protected] siger:
The few, really, truely, self giving, self sacrificing warriors of good who still exist
[email protected] siger:
Is the ONLY thing...
Budly siger:
Thats just some cliuqche bull**** however to spell it "Ohh gods...good is dying"
[email protected] siger:
Which stands between that world, and extinction...
Budly siger:
-.-
[email protected] siger:
Of course that
[email protected] siger:
Good has always been dying Budly, Evil simply comes more naturally
[email protected] siger:
Its more expected and accepted then good
[email protected] siger:
Both by the universe and by mortals in general
[email protected] siger:
Its human to be flawed, its inhuman to be good
Budly siger:
....Its human to be neutral
[email protected] siger:
Not really, and neutrality feeds evil, anyways
[email protected] siger:
Good is too extremistic
Budly siger:
I always saw neutrality sidding with good since Evil is bad ass
Budly siger:
Evil is e xtremistic too
[email protected] siger:
Actually, not really... Think about it for a second
[email protected] siger:
You cant do evil to be good and still be good
[email protected] siger:
You can do good to be evil and still be evil
Budly siger:
That is just a lawful view of it
[email protected] siger:
If you are too Lawful Good, you become Chaotic Evil
[email protected] siger:
If you are too Chaotic Evil, you are Chaotic Evil
Budly siger:
Where did you read this?
[email protected] siger:
Its simply a fact, that is why angels usually fall, but fiends never rise
[email protected] siger:
Once you become too set in the fact that you are righteouss, and what YOU believe in is right
[email protected] siger:
Once you will do anything to pursue it
Budly siger:
What about all the good gods?
[email protected] siger:
You become what you fight...
[email protected] siger:
THink of it this way...
[email protected] siger:
To kill a Evil person, is that good?
[email protected] siger:
Well?
Budly siger:
Yes
[email protected] siger:
You are a traveller in time, and you are introduced to a innocent little child the age of 3, by the name of Adolf Hitler, this child has never done anything wrong, but you know what it WILL do...

Would you kill that child?
Budly siger:
Yes, maybe
[email protected] siger:
What about all the childs in a small village?... I mean, for all we know, these could all be Adolf Hitlers, waiting to spring out
Budly siger:
Or I would try and effect him not to become who he is
[email protected] siger:
What about that kid next door?...
Budly siger:
...Well I guess I have to open a church and become a priest then
[email protected] siger:
If he grows to become a tyrant.. And you had the chance to kill him at this time...
[email protected] siger:
Would you consider it your fault?
Budly siger:
Yes maybe, or I would mayb consider him as true evilllsince of he didnt change
[email protected] siger:
See theres the thing....

There are a thousand of ways for an angel to fall, including being too judgemental, passing judgement of those who have really done nothing (yet atleast) as well as simply not being able to carry on anymore, all the evil in the world is too much for a being of perfect good
[email protected] siger:
There is only one way for a demon or devil to rise
[email protected] siger:
Regret
Budly siger:
Well Celestial have good in the blood..
Budly siger:
Im a simple human
[email protected] siger:
Erinyes are former Celestials
Budly siger:
I heard the Celestial lord created em...to check on souls so they dont go to the Abyss
[email protected] siger:
Whom did you hear that from?
Budly siger:
Scarlet Ve'heer. I read somewhere too that its just a rumour they fallen
[email protected] siger:
Erinyes are former Celestial... When a Celestial goes Fiendish, its a Erinyes...
[email protected] siger:
Ve'heer -.-
Budly siger:
..
Budly siger:
I talk rather lot with Scarlet Ve'heer on msn
[email protected] siger:
Ah I see..
[email protected] siger:
Well, another perspective who is against my own, probably....

A think people dont usually realize (even though its written all over) is that alignments in DND arent just perspectives, its living, breathing, things
[email protected] siger:
Energies
[email protected] siger:
thing*
Budly siger:
Alignments is bull****
[email protected] siger:
Indeed
[email protected] siger:
But in DnD, its living and breathing things
[email protected] siger:
So they should be treated as such
[email protected] siger:
Angels.. Have lost
[email protected] siger:
And they know it
[email protected] siger:
Imagine knowing what you fight for is lost...

Try and do that.. Angels are really self sacrificing...
Budly siger:
Hmm
Budly siger:
True I guess
[email protected] siger:
Now add the fact, more and more of those who are your brothers, and fight for the same, die, or fall each day
[email protected] siger:
Additionally, the fact, that everyone thinks you as the bad one
Budly siger:
How can they fall..
Budly siger:
Its just out of the view upon themself..
Budly siger:
Think diffrent, dont fall
[email protected] siger:
When an angel thinks different, they fall
[email protected] siger:
It is simple like that
Budly siger:
Well..
Budly siger:
The same for the others too
[email protected] siger:
What I dont get is..
[email protected] siger:
Why do people have such a view of angels? Cuddly, bunnies who pick flowers
Budly siger:
...
Budly siger:
Cartoons
[email protected] siger:
An Angel is by all expected to be a perfect being...

Quite a pain, to know yourself, that you need to be, and the fact that if you think as you do, begin to doubt in it, you are not
[email protected] siger:
Ignorance is bliss
Budly siger:
They are born to be
[email protected] siger:
Angels arent ignorant..
Budly siger:
Its in their blood
[email protected] siger:
It dosnt change it, if you begin to doubt you are perfect, you are not, because you can doubt...
[email protected] siger:
If you begin to doubt your cause
[email protected] siger:
Its lost
[email protected] siger:
And you will
Budly siger:
Erh?
Budly siger:
Devils see emself as perfect too....
[email protected] siger:
Devils are quite much more perfect, since their idea of perfect isnt nearly as extreme or limiting as Angels
[email protected] siger:
All Devils are created of Asmodeus, who is the ORIGINAL ANGEL
Budly siger:
Thats what I mean...Asmodeus is but he was sent down to become a d evl to stop the Abyss
[email protected] siger:
He became a Devil, when the Abyss which he fought corrupted him
[email protected] siger:
But he is, indeed... A much more perfect being now
Budly siger:
No? He isnt
[email protected] siger:
Yes, he is
Budly siger:
His evil
[email protected] siger:
He has no doubt, and doubt does not influence him if he has
Budly siger:
A Perfect creature would have a neutral stand point to most
[email protected] siger:
What he does is right, because the rules of what is right, is up to himself
[email protected] siger:
Therefore, he is perfect
Budly siger:
So Hitler did right since he was the supreme ruler?
[email protected] siger:
Now we are getting controversial... But if you insist I will continue
[email protected] siger:
He thinks so himself, did he not?

I aint saying Asmodeus did the right thing, but he did the perfect thing, exactly like angels do the perfect thing
[email protected] siger:
Jesus do the perfect things, aswell does Hitler, because their definitions are different
[email protected] siger:
Perfect and Right, isnt the same, alignments are fixed in DnD, not perspectives
Budly siger:
Right..Edin..right
[email protected] siger:
Not right
Budly siger:
Well....I cant see him as perfect
[email protected] siger:
Of course you cant
[email protected] siger:
Thats the thing, a Devil wouldnt care
[email protected] siger:
A Angel would, if its not past that point
[email protected] siger:
If a Angel cares
[email protected] siger:
It falls
[email protected] siger:
And angels do care
Budly siger:
How the hell can it fail...
[email protected] siger:
It isnt perfect
Budly siger:
Caring....isnt perfect?
[email protected] siger:
No
Budly siger:
Ohh well
Budly siger:
Can we talk about something else?
Budly siger:
Its depressing
[email protected] siger:
Sure, but im gonna save this convo

--

Be it as you may, disagree or agree, I personally do the first in most of these, and that will most probably change very soon, again.

This is a memory caught in word, unchanging even if the one who ushered it did.

What are your thoughts on it?

[Keris]

That is pretty deep...
While I didn't get the references to the Abyss and such like, a lot of it is applicable to belief systems in this world, and is interesting. Angels originally didn't even have wings, they didn't need them to fly, and weren't "Cuddly".
The concept of a fallen angel is interesting, the expectations for angels are high, but I daresay they don't need to be "perfect". An angel simply must not sin, and so feel not Anger, Jealousy, Greed, Pride or Lust, and not give in to Gluttony or Laziness. For these sins they would fall, but there is nothing about not slaying demons/devils in interesting and kick-ass ways, as long as they are impassionate.
A Demon or a Devil is a being of pure evil, and as such the slaying of one is in no way evil, it reduces the amount of evil in the world and so is good. In contrast a human, even Hitler, has the capacity for good, and so the slaying of is an evil act.

Just as a question, which are you? Budly or edinsumar?

[The Unknown]

I am Edin

Edin Sumar Jankovic

[Keris]

On perfection, there can be no such thing as perfection.
If it exists, who defines it? If emotion is imperfect, how can cruel logic be perfect? If the choice exists between killing a child, or risking lives by letting it live, how can compassion be in the wrong?
If a devil is perfect, because it does not doubt itself, then an angel is perfect, because it can continue while doubting itself.
If one thing is perfect, then nothing else is, because they are not that one thing.
If "perfection" is being best at what you're meant for, then all things are perfect, as who decides what we were meant for?

[The Unknown]

It is very simple on that point, that perfection does not exist indeed.

Which is why neither Angels nor Devils do.

But DND is a world where Good and Evil are defined much more clearly then our own, in DnD, there are rules, its not all perspectives, which is why those beings can exist, which is why they can "know" they are Perfect Good, or Perfect Evil.

[Keris]

If they are Perfect Good and Perfect Evil, then how can they change? If an angel falls, it is imperfect, and if a devil repents, it also is imperfect. If they are Perfect, they should be infallible, but as they are fallible, they are not.
As a non-serious aside, what would a Risen Demon look like? Not nearly as cool as a fallen angel I bet.:smallamused:

[Telonius]

Perfection exists. Who defines it? The same person who defines things like "one," "pi," and "i." The person who defines the criteria, defines perfection. Trouble arises because there is a potential conflict between "agreed-upon criteria" and "objective criteria."

[The Unknown]

If they are Perfect Good and Perfect Evil, then how can they change? If an angel falls, it is imperfect, and if a devil repents, it also is imperfect. If they are Perfect, they should be infallible, but as they are fallible, they are not.
As a non-serious aside, what would a Risen Demon look like? Not nearly as cool as a fallen angel I bet.:smallamused:

Well thats just the thing, once they fall, they arent perfect anymore, thus, they are not angels, when they then become Erinyes, they are perfect yet again, but changed, greatly.

Like Asmodeus, the perfect creation of the Original Lawful Good Gods, the Perfect Being of Lawful Evil, the original angel.

A Risen Demon is so rare that you will possibly (and hopefully) never meet one in any kind of RPG, ever, and if it has existed, im positive it would not made it known of its former nature.

A Fallen Angel is basically a Erinyes, they are still angels.. But.. Changed, look up Erinyes in the MM.

Note: Additionally, if you wish some more personal beliefs, see my other thread: "Thoughts - Nihilism"

[Keris]

Well thats just the thing, once they fall, they arent perfect anymore, thus, they are not angels, when they then become Erinyes, they are perfect yet again, but changed, greatly.

Like Asmodeus, the perfect creation of the Original Lawful Good Gods, the Perfect Being of Lawful Evil, the original angel.

A Risen Demon is so rare that you will possibly (and hopefully) never meet one in any kind of RPG, ever, and if it has existed, im positive it would not made it known of its former nature.


If an angel has the capacity to fall, then it cannot be perfect. If it can fall, it is flawed, and so not perfect. If a Risen Demon is re-born, then why not a Fallen Angel?



A Fallen Angel is basically a Erinyes, they are still angels.. But.. Changed, look up Erinyes in the MM.

Sadly I don't have my copy of the MM with me right now, but I'll take your word for it.

[The Unknown]

The universe favors Evil

They are perfect, but only because they know they are, if they dont know they are, they are not.

Basically its self inflicted ignorance, and noone really is, perfect.

[Keris]

If one considers oneself to be perfect, then you are guilty of Pride, a sin for Angels. So if an Angel is perfect by your definition, he isn't.

Evil does seem to be favoured though, it is the easier path.

[Renegade Paladin]

Wow, you screwed it up. First, the members of the Celestial Hebdomad are not throne archons. A throne archon is a very specific creature, and none of the Celestial Paragons are throne archons; they're all unique. (And if anything, Barachiel would be a trumpet archon.)

Secondly, what triggered this conversation? It reads like you just randomly started ranting about angels; did he say something to set him off, or did it come out of nowhere?

[The Unknown]

Wow, you screwed it up. First, the members of the Celestial Hebdomad are not throne archons. A throne archon is a very specific creature, and none of the Celestial Paragons are throne archons; they're all unique. (And if anything, Barachiel would be a trumpet archon.)

Secondly, what triggered this conversation? It reads like you just randomly started ranting about angels; did he say something to set him off, or did it come out of nowhere?

Yes, everyone do make mistakes, but as I also said, I was drunk at the time of this convo, and yes, I just randomly started it, I do that alot.

[Traveling_Angel]

I'll agree to "perfection is a myth" but for entirely different reasons. In all my experience, those claiming a standard of perfection miss something, or are wrong (in my opinion) about something. Thus, I have no reason to believe any set forth example of perfection.

For example, I would say that lack of doubt is a very much so a flaw in any being. Why? Because we need doubt to change our views. It's essential. And why is that important? Because if we are wrong, yet have no doubt, then we have no chance of improving our beliefs, even upon empirical, scientific ground (think Galileo). And a otherwise perfect being would be able to discern between such differences via mental faculty, or other methods. Aka, doubt is a contingency.

Also, who said perfection is self defined?

As for the universe favoring evil, I would say not. Basic human instincts go both ways, fairly equally. If, on that basis, we can go either way, and, as far as I can tell, the DnD pantheon is built on mortal energies, the universe is at a base, balanced.

[SurlySeraph]

OK, either this should go in the "Gaming" forum, or you're teetering on the edge of breaking the "No religious discussion" rule.

[The Unknown]

OK, either this should go in the "Gaming" forum, or you're teetering on the edge of breaking the "No religious discussion" rule.

I had no idea about that.

Feel free to lock this thread though, or direct someone who can towards it, not that it means much to me anyways.