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Frosty
2008-01-07, 06:48 PM
Ok, there may be a campaign starting soon where each player begins as a level 20 gestalt character. Given the assumption that Epic rules will not be used, and that there will be no normal leveling ups (you just gain some variant divine-rank abilities as you gain more exp), what kind of build would you use? Assume you have access to:

Core, PHB two, all Complete books, Xpanded Psionics handbook (but I don't want to be a psionic character), Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Fiendish Codex 1 and 2, Unearthed Arcana, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Dragonomicon, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Citiscape, Magic Item Compendium, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Book of Vile Darkness (but I won't be evil)

What kind of build would be powerful but not to the point of, "Ok, there's more cheese here than in France." It should be something that makes sense thematically, not a random amalgamation of dips to make the most mechanically powerful character. Also assume that the players will not necessarily be working with each other, although they do not necessarily work against each other either. This character should be somewhat self-sufficient, so most likely this character should have some form of magical prowess.

Oh and also, no Druids.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-01-07, 07:00 PM
Sorcerer 20//Ranger 20

As sort of a shaman.

Frosty
2008-01-07, 07:15 PM
Hmm, it's simple and has good saves. But I was hoping more for feat selections and general strategies in combat instead of just how many levels of each build. Like, what kind of style would this character focus on? Using spells to buff his archery? Or perhaps he's a blaster who also happens to shoot arrows?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-07, 07:18 PM
With a human gestalt taking 2 flaws to balance out taking 2 Practiced Caster feats on the Beguiler side:

Factotum - 19 + 1 level to personal taste but Marshal - 1 with Motivate Aura Charisma (or Intelligence) is nice.

Conjurer Specialist -1 with the Arcane Discipline Spell Domain (Lots of utility with that single domain for a PC), Master Specialist -4, Ultimate Magus - 10, ACM, Abjurant Champion, Loremaster or Thaumaturgist - 5 to personal tastes, (Effectively a Conj- 19, Beguiler - 8 for spellcasting (Quite a few useful spells on hand for various situations) plus the Factotum Arcane Dilettante ability address most of the 3 lost schools on the conjurer specialist side (I favor losing Charm, Enchantment and a single school to personal taste).

I like the ideal of a future godling being intelligent and able to do lots of different things well including summoning other creatures to help him or her.

If LA buydown is in effect I'd take a +2 LA race like Half Fey or Phrenic.

Without LA buydown and with it in effect I'd consider taking a Major Bloodline from UA/SRD since it is paid down differently and the +0 Planetouched template.

Frosty
2008-01-07, 07:27 PM
Let's assume that we're not allowing classes that advance two spellcasting classes at once, since classes like Mystic theurge is an example cited in the book as to what not to allow. Otherwise, very interesting build.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-01-07, 07:28 PM
Oh man, no ToB; that would have made my dream Gestalt characters:

Paladin/Fighter/Cavalier // (White Raven) Warblade
or
DruidZilla // (Iron Heart / Stone Dragon) Warblade
or
Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker // (Setting Sun / Iron Heart / Tiger Claw) Swordsage

You could go simple as Batman Wizard // DruidZilla.... oh gods... the POWER!

Frosty
2008-01-07, 07:30 PM
1) ToB is allowed. I forgot to add it to the list.
2) No Druid allowed. and being a cleric would be very strange. You derive your power from a god...but you ARE a god. Maybe worship an ideal?

Talya
2008-01-07, 07:36 PM
It should be something that makes sense thematically, not a random amalgamation of dips to make the most mechanically powerful character. Also assume that the players will not necessarily be working with each other, although they do not necessarily work against each other either. This character should be somewhat self-sufficient, so most likely this character should have some form of magical prowess.


I built an elf once that was Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2/(other of your choice) 1. It all fit together, thematically. It's designed as a whirling blade dance of chaotic elvish destruction. If you built that on one side, then went with Beguiler on the other side, you'd be pretty neat. The intelligence requirement is synergistic between sides of the gestalt, but the character is primarily melee, with magical abilities on the side.


Edit: TOB being allowed utterly changes all of the above. I would be highly tempted to go all melee on a gestalt build that allows Tome of Battle.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-01-07, 07:38 PM
No Druid allowed; I can see why; it does get overpowered quite quickly.

Well, in all honesty, I like the idea of the Paladin/Cavalier // Warblade the most. The only thing that is going to suck is your Reflex save, but you are going to have a powerful Mount (I went with Celestial Mount [BoED] feat and a Drakkensteed [Dragon Magic]). You don't have great spellcasting, little to none as a matter of fact; but the Cavalier is a well build Paladin based Pr-class, it is not overpowered, and does give some really kickarse Mounted combat abilities. The Paladin, as you know, has some cheese with the Divine Health and Save bonuses (so it is not worth it to dump CHA). If you are familiar with Warblade, then you know about the Maneuvers that he can perform, with a lance is going to be the ultimate in funny. I prefer White Raven maneuvers for this character; he is going to have an awesome amount of HP and great armor.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-07, 07:50 PM
Let's assume that we're not allowing classes that advance two spellcasting classes at once, since classes like Mystic theurge is an example cited in the book as to what not to allow. Otherwise, very interesting build.

Keeping it simple a variant Intelligence based Spellcaster would be legal as per the note on UA page 72 which would open up All spell lists to the PC for cherry picking to personal taste (things like Fast Healing 1, Anyspell (if not taking the Spell domain), Flamestrike, Shadow Conjuration, Heal, Shades, SM7 for summoning a Movanic Deva, Miracle). It would be strong even without PRCs because of what the PC can get for those bonus feats at levels 1, 4, 10, 15 and 20 plus choosing the best save for the spellcaster side.

Spellcaster -5, MotAO - 7 for full limited Spell pool access of arcane spells 1 - 9 which would be really strong with the Extra Ring feat and Rings of Theurgy 20,000 gp for the additional 3 known spells per ring, Abjurant Champion - 5, 3 PRCs to personal taste (Something like Sandshaper probably a good ideal for the extra known spells).

Beguiler with 1+ level dips in the Sand Shaper PRC for extra known spells along with the Arcane Discipline for the Spell domain with Ruathor - 3, ACM-5, Loremaster -2 and 5 levels of Abjurant Champion (Lose 1 level or more for the Sandshaper PRC).


If you want to play LG with some MAD:

Factotum -1, Cleric - 16 (15 with a level of Marshal -1) , PRC Pal - 3// Archivist -1, Factotum +2, Archivist +4, Celestial Mystic - 10, Archivist -3 level 9 spell casting on both sides, plus IPs and Divine Grace.

JaxGaret
2008-01-07, 07:52 PM
Crusader//FavoredSoul/FistOfRaziel would make for a simple, powerful holy warrior.

Throw in Sacred Exorcist on the FS side for DMM if you want it.

ealan
2008-01-07, 08:00 PM
lets go rogue 20 on one side and fighter 4 swashbuckler 16 on the other.

taking daring outlaw and daring warrior as feats when prereq is met.

you then have a sneak attack of level 34 rogue, all 20 levels of fighter feats and 40 levels of grace and dodge.

JaxGaret
2008-01-07, 08:02 PM
lets go rogue 20 on one side and fighter 4 swashbuckler 16 on the other.

taking daring outlaw and daring warrior as feats when prereq is met.

you then have a sneak attack of level 34 rogue, all 20 levels of fighter feats and 40 levels of grace and dodge.

There's no way that your math is correct. :smallbiggrin:

This is misinterpretation of the rules at its finest here.

ealan
2008-01-07, 08:06 PM
Well if your a stickler. Not much my DM could do about it he just said lvl 15 gestalt. I took off and pushed every limit.

1. Your swashbulckler levels stack with fighter and rogue for grace and dodge
2. Your fighter levels stack with swachbuckler levels for fighter bonus feats
3. Your rogue levels stack with your swashbuckler levels for sneak attack.

JaxGaret
2008-01-07, 08:16 PM
Well if your a stickler. Not much my DM could do about it he just said lvl 15 gestalt. I took off and pushed every limit.

1. Your swashbulckler levels stack with fighter and rogue for grace and dodge
2. Your fighter levels stack with swachbuckler levels for fighter bonus feats
3. Your rogue levels stack with your swashbuckler levels for sneak attack.

The above violates this rule of gestalt:


Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

And violates this principle of gestalt:


Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.

Since feats such as those published in the CScoundrel that combine two class' features were not available at the time of the publication of UA, in which the gestalt rules reside, I believe that these feats represent the sort of thing that this suggestion covers.

Chronicled
2008-01-07, 08:17 PM
Things I like:

Wizard//Beguiler. Two Int based casters, 1 prepared and one spontaneous, with an obscene amount of skills. Take Enchantment and Illusion as your Wizard banned schools, since a Beguiler's got that covered. The real problem here is the poor Fort/Ref saves, but that's about it. You're Batman with a slew of Enchantment and Illusion spells in reserve; do all the fun wizard PrCing, and leave Beguiler the entire way.

Wizard//Duskblade/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is fun. You use Wizard to get Haste to qualify you for Swiftblade, then have the Swiftblade advance your Duskblade caster levels (meaning you don't lose out on 9th level spells, as full Swiftblades normally do). Full BAB, 9th level spells, decent saves, and very nifty abilities. Fun, and quite decent without being broken.

Crusader//Knight for Charisma synergy and about the ultimate tank--who just. won't. die. No spells, though. :smallfrown:

Cloistered Cleric/Cleric PrCs//Swordsage is one of *the* strongest gestalt builds (Cleric//Druid and Wizard//Archivist are some of the only ones that beat it.); the synergy here is incredible. You can do a lot of different things with this setup.

Edit: As for being a cleric and a god... you grant yourself spells.

Talya
2008-01-07, 08:18 PM
Well if your a stickler. Not much my DM could do about it he just said lvl 15 gestalt. I took off and pushed every limit.

1. Your swashbulckler levels stack with fighter and rogue for grace and dodge
2. Your fighter levels stack with swachbuckler levels for fighter bonus feats
3. Your rogue levels stack with your swashbuckler levels for sneak attack.

While allowing stacking between sides of the gestalt is iffy (You can't make a level 40 wizard by taking 20 wizard/20 wizard), I'll let it slide, because one you got entirely wrong by the rules.

Your fighter levels do not stack with swashbuckler levels for acquiring fighter bonus feats. They only stack with them for qualifying for fighter bonus feats. That means the swashbuckler does not get fighter bonus feats, but does count as a 20 fighter for allowing access to the weapon focus/specialization tree.

If I were trying to break the rules (which really go against the spirit of the gestalt rules anyway), I'd do what you did with 10 swashbuckler/10 rogue//20 fighter. By level 11 you'd qualify for epic fighter bonus feats.

Charlie Kemek
2008-01-07, 08:29 PM
water sujuna/sorcerer or water sujunga/warmage
2 classes of spellcasting using charasma

Riffington
2008-01-07, 09:03 PM
Wizard/Warblade just can't suck. No optimization necessary. Just pick feats, spells, and maneuvers at random - you still won't suck.

Necromas
2008-01-07, 09:10 PM
I like the idea of Warmage//Sorcerer for the nutty cha synergy, and the fact that you can rely on the warmage side for all your blasting needs which frees up the sorcerer side to use their spells known on powerful spells warmages miss out on. The warmage bonus feats can also be used on your sorc spells, and a spellthief dip on either side would let you get light armor casting for the sorc side if you really dont wanna miss out on armored mage.

It's a nice alternative to Wiz//Sorc.

Chronicled
2008-01-07, 09:12 PM
Wizard/Warblade just can't suck. No optimization necessary. Just pick feats, spells, and maneuvers at random - you still won't suck.

Do I have to stat out a build to prove you wrong? (I agree with the principle of the thing, of course.)

Ryuuk
2008-01-07, 09:32 PM
I'd go Warblade//Psion actually. Focus on Diamond Mind with the Warblade and on Psychometabolism with the Psion. Diamond Mind will feed of the max ranks in concentration and the Psychometabolism powers will help you buff up in melee. It just seems to fit well in my eyes.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-07, 09:32 PM
Hmm, it's simple and has good saves. But I was hoping more for feat selections and general strategies in combat instead of just how many levels of each build. Like, what kind of style would this character focus on? Using spells to buff his archery? Or perhaps he's a blaster who also happens to shoot arrows?
Hmm...

Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5//Paladin-5/Monk-15 (you can trade Monk for Paladin levels to taste)

You'll need at least three feats to qualify for the Mage of the Arcane Order: Cooperative Metamagic, Arcane Preparation, and an additional metamagic feat. Which means you need to be a human, a Strongheart Halfling, or have a flaw.

Other feats you'll want:
Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer): Monk and Sorcerer levels stack to determine Monkish AC, Monkish AC based of Charisma, plus some other nifties that are less important.
Ascetic Knight (Complete Adventurer): Monk and Paladin levels stack to determine Monkish unarmed damage and Smite Evil bonuses.
Heighten Spell: Very useful for a Sorcerer to pump save DC's.
Reserve Feats: You want one of these, maybe two, for when you're expecting a long day of mooks. You'll probably do best with that shapeshifting one, for the swift action temporary HP.

Basic strategy:
Stats: Focus on Charisma first (It's AC, saves, spell DC, bonus spells), Con second, Dex third.
Equipment: Focus on Charisma first (It's AC, saves, spell DC, bonus spells), then standard stuff - AC Boosters, save boosters, other stat boosters. Remember, lots of stacking boosts are generally less expensive than a small number of large boosters for the effect they have.
Spells: You want a decent Fort save or lose, a decent Will save or lose, and a decent Reflex save or lose, and a good no-save spell. Combined with Heighten Spell, you've got your basic bases covered. Beyond that, make your spell list as flexible as possible (you're playing batman - a few basics: Polymorph, the Shadow line (the entire PHB set - seriously - it does that much for you at every level), Fly (for everyone else when in cramped quarters), Invisibility, Mind Blank, Overland Flight (for you)), but ALWAYS include Limited Wish (I'll get to why, and why I list "ALWAYS" on there, too).
Archmage High Arcana:
Mastery of Elements: Always funny to summon an Electricity Elemental, but it's got lots of other creative uses too - like making it so you only need one real no-save, no-SR blasting spell. It's a gem.
Arcane Reach: For when you want to reach out and touch someone, but you don't want to be in touching range. Very useful, take it.
Mastery of Shaping: You can cut loose with AoE spells without worrying about friendlies. A gem.
Spell Power: This is good. Take it repeatedly if you're permitted. Feeds your spells directly, and also controls how much you can take from the Spellpool on a given day.

Why Limited Wish?
Magic-Psionics transparency.
Spell interact with powers the same way spells interact with spells, and vice-versa. Psychic Reformation is a 4th level Psion power. With the 300 XP for Limited Wish, you can change the last six levels of skills, feats, and (as powers and spells are interchangeable under transparency) spells known. You can adapt to a situation in one standard action - faster even than the Batman Wizard, although it costs you more (300 xp).

Frosty
2008-01-07, 09:55 PM
Jack, your idea is terrific...and has enough details for me to really be intrigued and want to research this some more.

Now, how many levels of monk would you recommend? And this could actually work quite well for my character concept. I envision my character being in charge of his own planar city of some sort. He'd be reminiscent of the Lady of Pain, but much nicer (will be LG or NG).

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, characters get an 75 point-buy in this game.

Talya
2008-01-07, 10:10 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, characters get an 75 point-buy in this game.

...

...

Yes, you will be gods.

That allows you no less than four 18s.

Your other two scores will be 13 and 14 respectively... (or a 16 and a 9.)

Jack_Simth
2008-01-07, 10:16 PM
Jack, your idea is terrific...and has enough details for me to really be intrigued and want to research this some more.

Now, how many levels of monk would you recommend? And this could actually work quite well for my character concept. I envision my character being in charge of his own planar city of some sort. He'd be reminiscent of the Lady of Pain, but much nicer (will be LG or NG).

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, characters get an 75 point-buy in this game.

As you're going to be wanting the Paladin side for Divine Grace (Charisma to saves for a Charisma-based caster) you'll need to be LG for that build (unless you use a variant Paladin).

Paladin vs. Monk:
This is a matter of taste. More Paladin levels give you more HP, more Lay on of Hands, better BAB, more Smites (not that you'll use them), and a better Mount (not that you'll use it, except for the carrying capacity that can bypass extra-dimensional space issues). More Monk levels give you better saves, more skills, and Monk nifties. Timeless Body at Monk-17/Paladin-3 gets you all of the Paladin Immunities, and lets you grown old without growing weak. I picked 5/15 simply for the pairing with 5 base levels in Sorcerer (which match the five missing levels of Monk for unarmed AC) - and that's the only reason, really.

Archangel Yuki
2008-01-07, 10:18 PM
...

...

Yes, you will be gods.

That allows you no less than four 18s.

Your other two scores will be 13 and 14 respectively... (or a 16 and a 9.)

Plus, 20th level character. You get 5 ability score enhancements.

With that many good ability scores, take something that totally covers one another. You can make a character that dose not have many weak points if you play it right.

Chronicled
2008-01-07, 10:19 PM
I'd go Warblade//Psion actually. Focus on Diamond Mind with the Warblade and on Psychometabolism with the Psion. Diamond Mind will feed of the max ranks in concentration and the Psychometabolism powers will help you buff up in melee. It just seems to fit well in my eyes.

I've played this. It works really well. The psionic focus meshes superbly with Diamond Mind maneuvers, among other things.

Douglas
2008-01-07, 10:38 PM
In any suggested build involving Monk, replace Monk with Swordsage.

If you really want to be a melee monster, do a Cleric 20//Swordsage 20, take Intuitive Attack, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), load up on Nightsticks, and browse the Spell Compendium (in addition to core) for an incredible list of all-day buffs. Wisdom to AC in light armor, bonus spells, save DCs, and attacks with simple weapons, improved evasion, good saves, a HUGE list of Codzilla buffs, Cleric casting, and Swordsage maneuvers. Add PrCs to taste.

Chronicled
2008-01-07, 10:45 PM
In any suggested build involving Monk, replace Monk with Swordsage.

If you really want to be a melee monster, do a Cleric 20//Swordsage 20, take Intuitive Attack, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), load up on Nightsticks, and browse the Spell Compendium (in addition to core) for an incredible list of all-day buffs. Wisdom to AC in light armor, bonus spells, save DCs, and attacks with simple weapons, improved evasion, good saves, a HUGE list of Codzilla buffs, Cleric casting, and Swordsage maneuvers. Add PrCs to taste.

Cloistered Cleric//Swordsage is strictly better than Cleric//Swordsage.

And in the case of Jack's suggested build, Monk is used due to the feat Ascetic Mage, which allows Cha to AC. The feat doesn't work with a Swordsage, unless your DM is really lenient.

Douglas
2008-01-07, 10:48 PM
Ascetic Mage works just fine with Swordsage. It doesn't say "change your Monk AC bonus to charisma", it says "if you add wisdom to AC, you can add charisma instead". Any source of wisdom to AC will work.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-07, 11:00 PM
In any suggested build involving Monk, replace Monk with Swordsage.
Moot point - the Tome of Battle:Book of Nine Swords is not on the list of sources.

Douglas
2008-01-07, 11:02 PM
1) ToB is allowed. I forgot to add it to the list.
10 characters

Chronicled
2008-01-07, 11:02 PM
Ascetic Mage works just fine with Swordsage. It doesn't say "change your Monk AC bonus to charisma", it says "if you add wisdom to AC, you can add charisma instead". Any source of wisdom to AC will work.

:smallsigh:

I've said it before, and I'll probably end it saying it again: I ought to quit posting when I get this tired.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-07, 11:20 PM
10 characters

Ah. Well, in that case, I might point out that it doesn't work so hot with Ascetic Knight for the Smiting (but that doesn't matter too much, as you really want to stay out of melee), that you lose the good Fort save (which is one of your more important saves), and that the Swordsage's AC bonus doesn't scale with level the same way the Monk's does.

Overall, focusing on swift-action manuevers, swapping out Monk for Swordsage will probably result in a more powerful build if done to my previous build... but it'll have slightly lower defenses, and you get all the offense you need from the Sorcerer side.

Wordmiser
2008-01-07, 11:24 PM
I'm a big fan of Archivist 20//Duskblade 3/Crusader 2/AbjChamp 5/Eternal Blade 10 with the Knowledge Devotion feat. It just oozes with Knowledge-fueled melee goodness.

Since Heroes of Horror is out, I suppose I'll have to look for something else...

It could be adjusted to Wizard 20//Duskblade 3/Crusader 2/AbjChamp 5/Eternal Blade 10, but it wouldn't have quite the Knowledge synergy or skill point accessability that the other build has. As such, it might as well be scrapped.

Duskblade 13/Enlightened Fist 7//Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Wizard 7 is simple and effective.

Factotum//Wizard is straight-forward and all-around competent. PrC the Wizard half as you deem appropriate.

I'll assume that Wild Shape Ranger/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper//Cloistered Cleric isn't an option if Druid isn't. If it is, that's a winner.

Frosty
2008-01-08, 01:57 AM
Question: Can a Sorcerer even use some of the class features of Mage of the Arcane Order? It seems like Spell Pool is useless, and New Spell is also useless. Free metamgic is ok, but you gotta waste feats on Cooperative Spell, Arcane Preparation, etc.

Plus, if you prestige class out of Sorcerer, does Ascetic Mage still help you? I guess still being able to use Charisma instead of Wis is good, but with the stats I can buy, it's not a *huge* boost, especialyl given how Stunning Fist, paladin spellcasting etc are still based off of wisdom. Hmm...

Chronicled
2008-01-08, 02:02 AM
Question: Can a Sorcerer even use some of the class features of Mage of the Arcane Order? It seems like Spell Pool is useless, and New Spell is also useless.

Useless? Negating one of the sorcerer's main weaknesses--lack of spells known--is a huge advantage. You gain a lot of versatility with all that access to utility spells.

Frosty
2008-01-08, 02:22 AM
Useless as in you can't access it. You need to leave spell slots open, but you can't do that even with Arcane Preparation.

Talya
2008-01-08, 02:41 AM
Useless as in you can't access it. You need to leave spell slots open, but you can't do that even with Arcane Preparation.

Uh...every morning sorcerers start with ALL their spellslots open.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-08, 02:43 AM
Question: Can a Sorcerer even use some of the class features of Mage of the Arcane Order? It seems like Spell Pool is useless, and New Spell is also useless. Free metamgic is ok, but you gotta waste feats on Cooperative Spell, Arcane Preparation, etc.



Yes, the key point to remember is the PRC doesn't say the Spellpool doesn't work for Sorcerers like it notes not receiving the New Spell benefit.

Actually the main reason to take MotAO with a Sorcerer is the Spell Pool IMO particularly with Rings of Theurgy from Complete Arcane and being able to slightly customize and tailor the known spells for a Sorcerer PC to the adventure in a suggested wealth by level campaign.

The Spellpool is pretty limited with total arcane spell levels called a day equal to half your caster level which is usually 1 single highest level spell, two middle level spells possibly with a third low level spell or several much lower spells of level 1 and or 2.

The Spellpool is really nice for low level spells like Endure Elements (Traveling in Frostburn or a Sandstorm environment and even Elemental depending on the campaign), the occassionally used Identify spell, the usually daily use Mage Armor and Rope Trick spells or that situationally useful low level spell needed by the party for whatever reason in a pinch like a Knock spell adventuring. At higher levels it's nice for the rarely used and costly component and or experience spells like Limited Wish freeing up a known spell slot for a more general utility spell.

If you can't use it your game then plenty of better PRCs.

weenie
2008-01-08, 06:14 AM
Wizard5/Abjurant Champion5/Wizard10//Duskblade 20 Is also a good option. You get full wizard spellcasting, Full BaB, 2 Good saves, a great AC(but you must use Luminous Armor-BoED or Still Spell & Elven spell lore), full attack spell channeling(otto's irresistible dance for god's sake!!!), a few blasty spells from the Duskblade side and don't let us forget the coolness of Arcane strike!. Twined Maximized Combust anyone?

Btw, I defeated the tarasque using this combo once alone and with little effort.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-01-08, 06:40 AM
One of my favorite builds is a Beguiler 20//rogue 10/assassin 10. Two types of stealthy, spontaneous, Int-based casting, good Will and Ref, very nice skills all the way through. Not much in the way of hp or BAB, but with your abilities those really don't matter too much.

But since ToB is allowed, I'd like to throw an idea I just had into the ring. Swordsage//Beguiler. The idea just tickles me. You see a guy in black robes whip out a rapier and do a little magic trick, you think you have him beat and then BAM, Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike.:smallbiggrin:
Edit: Another idea sort of along the same line, but more brute force than sneaky tactics and life-suckage. Duskblade//Warblade.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-08, 07:18 AM
Question: Can a Sorcerer even use some of the class features of Mage of the Arcane Order? It seems like Spell Pool is useless, and New Spell is also useless.
New Spell is useless (no spellbook), but the rest works - see, all of a Sorcerer's spell slots are both open and unused until the Sorcerer uses them (unless said Sorcerer takes advantage of Arcane Preparation to make a Quickened spell or some such...).

Free metamgic is ok, but you gotta waste feats on Cooperative Spell, Arcane Preparation, etc.
You expend three feats to get in - Arcane Preparation (somewhat useful, lets a Sorcerer use Quicken Spell), Cooperative Metamagic (pretty much a complete waste unless the party is built around it), and one other metamagic feat (not at all wasted, for a Sorcerer, if you pick a decent one). So it's one wasted feat, one somewhat useful feat, and one not-wasted feat... and over the course of 10 levels, you get two bonus metamagic feats. So the PrC pays back it's feat cost.

The Spellpool gives the Sorcerer something that's really valuable - the perfect spell, once per day (more than that, for you, as you can push your caster level a bit, and get 11 or 12 spell levels a day).


Plus, if you prestige class out of Sorcerer, does Ascetic Mage still help you? I guess still being able to use Charisma instead of Wis is good, but with the stats I can buy, it's not a *huge* boost, especialyl given how Stunning Fist, paladin spellcasting etc are still based off of wisdom. Hmm...
That was part of why 15 Monk levels - You've got the first 5 levels on one side as Sorcerer-5, and the last 15 levels on the other side as Monk-15 - which means an unbroken 20 levels of classes that stack for purposes of Monkish AC.

And the reason for wanting to make it all based on Charisma, even with a 75 point buy? Limited boosts: Wealth-By-Level, Level-up boosts. Your base Charisma-18 character picks up a +6 Cloak of Charisma (or better, a +6 Belt of Magnificence for 200k) for Charisma-24. Spends all five level boosts on Charisma, and picks up the +5 Tome of Leadership and Influence, for a total Charisma of 34 (+12 modifier). If you don't have the feat (but have a base 18 Wisdom), then you're looking at another 36k for a +6 Peripat of Wisdom (unless you grabbed the Belt of Magnificence) and another 137,000 gp for the Tome of Understanding (not an inconsiderable sum, even at 20th), and you're still only ending up with a Wisdom score of 29 (no level-based boosts) for a +9 modifier. That one feat gives you +3 AC, and saves you 137,000 gp in equipment.

Wabbajack
2008-01-08, 08:50 AM
Make something like Warlock20//Rogue17/Hellfire-Warlock3 and use Eldritch-Glaive with Hellfire-Blast. You will do damage en mass, you can fly and cast invisibility all day and can create magic items for your party^^

Valairn
2008-01-08, 09:37 AM
Warblade 1/Duskblade 13/Jade Phoenix Mage 6//Wizard 20

Full BaB, the ability to channel any of the spells(and qualify for) you own into a full attack. You can also if you run out of metmagic, empower and quicken spells with your strikes. Very snazzy.

As another really awesome build. Rogue 18/Bloodclaw Master 2//Swordsage 20 focusing on Tiger Claw. At level 20 you can, Raging Mongoose + Dual Boost + Girmallon Windmill Flesh Rip + Time Stands Still + Island of Blades Stance, or if you are flanking normally Blood in the Water. If you are a two weapon fighter you proceed to take 20 attacks, preferably while flanking(easily accomplished with the island of blades stance) so you do 20 attacks with full strength bonus to both, 6 of which are at your highest base attack bonus. You deal additional rend and sneak attack damage. Its a lot of damage, and by a lot, I mean a whole friggin ton.

Alternatively you can use the Sneak Attack Fighter variant, and have a full BaB netting you 22 attacks.

Indon
2008-01-08, 10:20 AM
A favorite gestalt build of mine, because I find it amusing:

Scout 3/Rogue 17//Monk 3(?)/Ninja 17, taking two Complete Scoundrel feats (I think) that I forget the names of - one allows Rogue and Scout levels to stack for skirmish bonuses, the other allows Monk and Ninja levels to stack for Monk unarmed damage.

So you have a skillmonkey with:

Level 17 Rogue Sneak Attack
Level 17 Ninja Sudden Strike
Level 20 Scout Skirmish
Level 20 Monk Unarmed Damage.

Sadly, without pounce you can never use all of them at once (which would require Incarnum feats). I recommend it if you really like rolling a lot of dice, mostly D6, while simultaneously being useful as a skill monkey.

Downside? Non-optimal BAB and HD.

weenie
2008-01-08, 10:25 AM
Warblade 1/Duskblade 13/Jade Phoenix Mage 6//Wizard 20

Full BaB, the ability to channel any of the spells(and qualify for) you own into a full attack. You can also if you run out of metmagic, empower and quicken spells with your strikes. Very snazzy.

Not really, you don't get quickening strike until lvl 8... the empowering strike is however still a very nice ability, and it combines wonderfully with arcane channeling.

Valairn
2008-01-08, 10:37 AM
Not really, you don't get quickening strike until lvl 8... the empowering strike is however still a very nice ability, and it combines wonderfully with arcane channeling.

Fine... don't make an easy fix, just complain ;-).

Warblade 7/Duskblade 13//Wizard 10/JPM 10

You still get 9th level spells and everything I said before.

Alternatively you can go Warblade 5/Duskblade 5/Wizard 1/Duskblade 5/Wizard 1/Duskblade 3//Wizard 10/JPM 10

Which gives you full cast progression, Full BaB and still everything you got before.

Frosty
2008-01-08, 10:39 AM
Wizard 20 sees a lot of play on one side of the equation. I guess that's not surprising huh?

Valairn
2008-01-08, 10:41 AM
Wizard 20 sees a lot of play on one side of the equation. I guess that's not surprising huh?

Generally speaking, Wizards already can cover all their own weakness's, so why not give them more HP, increased saves, and neat abilities. Its like Full Caster Prestige Classes, but worse hehe.

Indon
2008-01-08, 10:48 AM
Wizard 20 sees a lot of play on one side of the equation. I guess that's not surprising huh?

It's not all about raw power, though. Monk is a popular choice for Gestalt because Gestalt allows versatility, and a Monk can grant a lot of that to any offensively-minded class.

Kioran
2008-01-08, 11:22 AM
It's not all about raw power, though. Monk is a popular choice for Gestalt because Gestalt allows versatility, and a Monk can grant a lot of that to any offensively-minded class.

Correct. Basic Gestalt Optimization works by combining an "active" with a passive side, "active" meaning one with good offensive capabilities and actions to take in combat, "passive" meaning a side good Saves, HD and such, which improves your defensive capabilities.
Monk makes for a nice passive side, because while most of it´s normal offensive capabilities are rather weak, it still grants you awesome saves, moderate BAB and HD, a whopping speed increase (never underestimate it, especially since it´s free!) and Monk-AC for those without armor - most Spellcasters for example.
Swordsage, while overall more powerful, is actually not better in the passive department, so if you have a very strong active side, you´re probably better of with Monk. Of course, Swordsage could be your active side - to be combined with something else (Fighter, Exotic Weapon master etc.) also for full BAB, more HP and quite possibly perfect saves.....
Warblade on the other Hand provides Full BAB, D12 and, most importantly, those powerful Diamond mind maneuvers that allow you to substitute Concentration checks for Saves.

Still, I think a Monk 20//Sorcerer + PrCs is the Shizznit, especially with your high PB - I don´t think you need to cheese this, with this setup it could easily become ridiculous.

Gestalt actually makes a lot of the otherwise "weak" classes more viable, especially if they have bad "active" but good "passive" abilities.......

RandomFellow
2008-01-08, 11:32 AM
Personally, I'd build something like this:
Gnome
Focus Specialist Illusionist 10 (w/ substitution levels) / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / Archmage 5 (Ban Enchantment, Evocation, & Abjuration and take the CL hit in Conjuration)
//
Archivist Build Here (personally, I just do Archivist 20. But I'm lazy like that.)

Frosty
2008-01-08, 11:32 AM
Well, supposedly this campaign will be filled with many, many lethal enemies and we'll need all we can get to defeat armies on our lonesome.

I think i want to stick to a Charisma-based class however, since that'd fit my concept better.

weenie
2008-01-08, 11:36 AM
Fine... don't make an easy fix, just complain ;-).

Warblade 7/Duskblade 13//Wizard 10/JPM 10

You still get 9th level spells and everything I said before.

Alternatively you can go Warblade 5/Duskblade 5/Wizard 1/Duskblade 5/Wizard 1/Duskblade 3//Wizard 10/JPM 10

Which gives you full cast progression, Full BaB and still everything you got before.

I'll do you one better:

Warblade 1/Duskblade 4/Abjurant Champion 1/JPM 1/Duskblade 4/JPM 1/Duskblade 2/Abjurant Champion 1/Duskblade 3/Abjurant Champion 2
//
Wizard 5/Ultimate magus 2/JPM 4/UM 1/JPM 2/UM 3/AC 1/UM2

Casting: Wizard20/Duskblade 19(caster level 20), decent saves, full BaB, full attack channeling, +6 spell power, can metamagic up to 4th level spells by burning Duskblade spells, practically free spell empowering & quickening, all abjuration spells quickened for free, +5 to all AC improving abjuration spells(shield & greater luminous armor FTW), 2 bonus metamagic feats.

Frosty
2008-01-08, 11:46 AM
Now if only there were a way to make it charisma based instead :)

Now, these are all *great* ideas and they seem fun. I also want some options that can inspire followers. I'm not sure, but I may actually have to *lead* an army some time, so a few builds that helps with that (maybe stuff that use auras?) could be good. Perhaps a dip in Marshall somewhere...

Keld Denar
2008-01-08, 11:59 AM
Go with something like Swordsage20//Fighter4/Warblade6/Dervish10/ or similar. Could probably tweak it a bit better, but won't unless you request (and I get home from work so I get access to ToB!)

The trick is, you get the following feats:
Weapon Focus: Light Mace (sucks)
Weapon Specialization: Light Mace (sucks)
Melee Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning (getting better)
Crushing Blows (passing fair)

wait for it...

dun dun dun

Lightning Maces (still sucks)

But wait, it gets better. In the back of ToB where the magic items are, there is a weapon enhancement called Weapon Aptitude. It allows you to apply weapon specific feats to the enhanced weapon as if it were that specific weapon.

Now, grab yourself a pair of +1 Keen Weapon Aptitude kukiris (or +1 Keen Weapon Aptitude Wounding Collision Brilliant Energy kukiris of Doom (TM) )
2 weapon fighting stuff, and some Tiger Claw stuff.

Enter a Dervish Dance and declare 1000 Cuts...boost Time Stands Still. You should now have 30 attacks (7x2 for dervish +1 haste x2 for TSS). Every time you hit, Crushing Blows gives you a +1 to hit. Every time you crit, Blood in the Water gives you +1 hit/damage and Lightning Maces gives you an extra attack. You should only miss on a 1, so add on Gloves of Fortunate Striking, a Mantle of Second Chances, and some reroll luck feats to keep up your attack spam.

1 in 4 hits should crit, giving you 7-8 extra attacks, and 1 in 4 of those will crit, giving you another 2 attacks, of which 1 might crit. Total AVERAGE attacks in a round comes to about 40. If vulnerable, you just drained about 40 CON from your target(s) and did around 1250 damage. You could duel boost Gorillion Windmill Fleshrip to do something like 84d6 on top of all that, but at that point, its kind of overkill.

The best part comes when you start attaining Divine Ranks. I forget which rank it is, but at some point you can gain the ability to have all attacks be autothreats and you are just rolling to confirm criticals. With your AB, Brilliant Energy, and all the rerolls, you can make an almost infinite number of attacks. You don't even need weapon aptitude, keen, or any of that. You just start shredding and stop when its hard to see through the red mist in the air.

Benejeseret
2008-01-08, 12:01 PM
Right now I would combine two concepts I have in my head right now:

Fighter6/Dervish10/Tempest4 // Spellthief2/Hexblade18 (feat: Master Spellthief)

Can cast lvl4 hexblade spells in light armour
Can steal and cast lvl9 anything spells in light armour

Hexblade dark companion variant (-2saves/AC to enemies) and take Hexblade bonus feat empower curse and curse of sticken. Thus cursed enemies are at -9AC.

For feats: combat expertise, dodge, mobility, weapon focus (scimitar), twf, imp. twf, gr. twf, bounding assault, rapid blitz attack....etc
See if your DM lets you use Dual Strike with Rapid Blitz, since rapid blitz is basically 3 'standard actions' as 'attack actions.'
'Free' feats: spring attack and a few others

So basic round is blitz in, attack up to 3 enemies and exit. Or go nutz and Dervish Dance with 1000 cuts to get in 16 attacks (my math might be off) and since the enemy is at -9AC hitting is easier.

Behold_the_Void
2008-01-08, 12:16 PM
Crusader 20//Favored Soul 20, prestige class to taste. There's your Charisma base right there :)

Also, on the Favored Soul side you can take mainly healing and buff spells to not worry about the Wisdom for saves, which means the primary part of this build is a fully-buffed Crusader wailing on things.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-08, 06:20 PM
Crusader 20//Favored Soul 20, prestige class to taste. There's your Charisma base right there :)
Mild issue:

1) ToB is allowed. I forgot to add it to the list.
2) No Druid allowed. and being a cleric would be very strange. You derive your power from a god...but you ARE a god. Maybe worship an ideal?(Emphasis added)
Favored Souls aren't permitted to worship ideals.

Frosty
2008-01-08, 09:21 PM
Hmm...I think I will have to fit paladin somewhere in my build. the divine grace is just too good to ignore. now, where to find an ability that becomes Evasion for the other two saves...

Kristoss
2008-01-08, 09:49 PM
Hmm...I think I will have to fit paladin somewhere in my build. the divine grace is just too good to ignore. now, where to find an ability that becomes Evasion for the other two saves...

3rd level Hexblade power called Mettle. I think some other class has it as well though I cant remember which.

Of course you will have trouble being a paladin and hexblade in one.

Kristoss
2008-01-08, 09:57 PM
Found it, it's the Pious Templar from CD. You get it at first level however one of the prerequisites is a feet that requires you to worship a diety.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-08, 10:21 PM
3rd level Hexblade power called Mettle. I think some other class has it as well though I cant remember which.

Of course you will have trouble being a paladin and hexblade in one.

Do you lose Hexblade class features if you change to a prohibited alignment? I know Monks and Bards don't, and all Barbarians lose is the Rage....

Collin152
2008-01-08, 10:57 PM
1) ToB is allowed. I forgot to add it to the list.
2) No Druid allowed. and being a cleric would be very strange. You derive your power from a god...but you ARE a god. Maybe worship an ideal?

Interestlingy enough, most of the gods have 20 levels in cleric. Can't very well grant spells you can't cast yourself. Obviously you derive the power from yourself. Or if that's too ridiculous, the ideal or concept you are the god of.

Frosty
2008-01-08, 11:27 PM
I can get behind the idea. Or, since we start out as like rank 0 or rank 1 deities, we could still umm, admire, certain greater deities.

Let's say a character worshipped Heironeous during his mortal years. He is now a fledgling god himself, but that doesn't stop him from still admiring what Heironeous represents and wanting many of the same things Heironious does. He may carve out his own niche, but he can still be one of Heironeou's followers, in a sense. (Heironeous took Leadership and has lesser godlings as FOllowers and Cohorts! :smalltongue: )

Collin152
2008-01-08, 11:30 PM
But, what happens when he gets powerful enough that he isn't content to be heironius' smunderling?

Douglas
2008-01-08, 11:34 PM
When you're a god, it's ok to worship yourself.

Collin152
2008-01-08, 11:36 PM
So the disney movie was right!
Narcissus is a God!

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-01-08, 11:45 PM
I forgot to add one of my favorite non-gish ideas. Warblade//Rogue. I have a character similar to it, but not exactly(martial barbarian//rogue). It's crazy fun being able to gut them that well if they're flat-footed or flanked. Rage+Maneuver+Sneak attack=Awesome.

Chronicled
2008-01-08, 11:52 PM
Crusader 20//Favored Soul 20, prestige class to taste. There's your Charisma base right there :)

Also, on the Favored Soul side you can take mainly healing and buff spells to not worry about the Wisdom for saves, which means the primary part of this build is a fully-buffed Crusader wailing on things.

I've played this, and found it to be one of weakest possible ToB//caster combos. Going Cleric and doing something with Turn Undead is a lot better, just for the versatility in spell selections, domain access, and number of PrCs available.

Frosty
2008-01-09, 12:09 AM
Now assuming I am going to do some sort of Sorc15/prestige_caster5//monk2/paladin2/Pious_templar1/??x

What would be the best for the remaining class? And what *should* the martial side do? Archery? Tripper (probably not, as I don't think I'll have enough feats as i is)? Charger? Tank (doubt it).

Wonder what sort of prestige classes are good for the sorc. Archamge is good. Loremaster is decent. Not sure if Mage of the arcane order fits the theme, but I'll think about it.

Chronicled
2008-01-09, 12:15 AM
Now assuming I am going to do some sort of Sorc15/prestige_caster5//monk2/paladin2/Pious_templar1/??x

What would be the best for the remaining class? And what *should* the martial side do? Archery? Tripper (probably not, as I don't think I'll have enough feats as i is)? Charger? Tank (doubt it).

Wonder what sort of prestige classes are good for the sorc. Archamge is good. Loremaster is decent. Not sure if Mage of the arcane order fits the theme, but I'll think about it.

You'd have to put it before the paladin levels, but 3 levels of hexblade would work quite well, giving you another round of Charisma to saves (only vs spells, though) and Mettle. Between high saves, Evasion, Mettle, and a decent touch AC, you're nigh-immune to spells. Anything that can get around that, you can handle with your own spells. The only thing that would make you more immune to casters is high SR.

@ Jack: Hexblade bonuses aren't lost from alignment change.

Draz74
2008-01-09, 12:29 AM
Depending how your DM handles LA in Gestalt, Nymph makes an interesting choice for a Charismatic Gestalt character. Not optimized, but fun.

Nymph Rogue 1 / Hexblade 3 / Blackguard 2 / Crusader 1 // Knight 20

Not Cha-based, but I'm always a fan of:

Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Duelist 10//Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1

for an Int-based Gish. With Tome of Battle, you could substitute something more modern on the melee side, like

Factotum 8 / Swashbuckler 3 / Warblade 9//Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1

Of course, at that point you can replace Beguiler with Psion or Wizard if you like, too.

Chronicled
2008-01-09, 12:59 AM
Depending how your DM handles LA in Gestalt, Nymph makes an interesting choice for a Charismatic Gestalt character. Not optimized, but fun.

Nymph Rogue 1 / Hexblade 3 / Blackguard 2 / Crusader 1 // Knight 20

Not Cha-based, but I'm always a fan of:

Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Duelist 10//Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1

for an Int-based Gish. With Tome of Battle, you could substitute something more modern on the melee side, like

Factotum 8 / Swashbuckler 3 / Warblade 9//Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1

Of course, at that point you can replace Beguiler with Psion or Wizard if you like, too.

Um, if you're taking Nymph, you want to continue the rest of that side's progression with druid, since a Nymph gets 7 levels of druid spellcasting that stack with actual druid spellcasting. (And if you're doing that, the PHB2 Shapeshift version seems very appealing.)

Frosty
2008-01-09, 01:33 AM
But, what happens when he gets powerful enough that he isn't content to be heironius' smunderling?

Then he's still chums with Heironeous. They would still strive for more or less similar ideals, so the True Believer and the Relics should still work. When you're as powerful as Heironeous, you can convert his Relics to work for you instead. It's certainly within your power.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-09, 05:30 AM
@ Jack: Hexblade bonuses aren't lost from alignment change.Which is what I was getting at. So a having Hexblade-3(for Mettle) and Paladin-2(for Divine Grace) on the same side isn't a contradiction.

Nebo_
2008-01-09, 05:42 AM
It's much easier to use a paladin of tyranny or slaughter.

Fishy
2008-01-09, 06:01 AM
I know you said you didn't want to do psionics, but my favorite gestalt build has to be Psion/Elocator//Ranger/Scout/Horizon Walker. Teleporty goodness, very near full saves and BAB, and kinds of precision bonuses to your Psion stuff. If you're playing by the 'only one PrC at a time' rule it becomes a but of a squeeze to fit everything in: you might end up only taking Elocator 9, which would be sad.

Keld Denar
2008-01-09, 09:08 AM
Oh come on...no one even commented on my build? I used LIGHTNING MACES for christ sake, one of the worst feats in CW and made it good. The synergy is staggering! Sure its not a full caster on either side, but common!!! And once you tack on divine ranks, it pretty much goes infinite.

How about:
Goliath1/Mountain Rage Barbarian1/Fighter 6/Bear Warrior5/Hulking Hurler5/Warshaper2//Ranger5/Master Thrower5/Warhulk10

Str = 18 + 2 (goliath,racial) +4 (rage,untyped) +5 (levels,untyped) +5 (book,inherant) +6 (belt,enhancement) +20 (warhulk,untyped) +16 (bear,size) = 76

Since a bear has 4 legs, it gets 1.5 more carrying capacity than a bipedal. Size should be huge (large bear + mountain rage) and huge confers a x4 multiplier for carrying capacity, for a total of x6. I don't have the books, but I'm pretty sure that medium load for a 76 str is pretty decent, multiply by 6 to find out how much this hulking hurler can throw. Warshape human hands to facilitate throwing. Toss a rock the size of a small moon at your foe as a touch attack (master thrower) and your damage will probably be 6-7 digit long. Anyone got a PHB handy for how much the medium load is for a 76 str character?

Frosty
2008-01-09, 12:32 PM
The PHB carrying load doesn't go beyond str 30s I don't believe. As for your build with lightning mace, I think it's cool, but that's not the character concept I'm going for :)

Keld Denar
2008-01-09, 12:37 PM
There should be a note on the bottom of the table with directions on how to extrapolate the table for numbers higher than 30.

Frosty
2008-01-09, 05:20 PM
I might also want my character to be inspirational to his many followers and worshippers. What class besides Bard and Marshal might do that?

Chronicled
2008-01-09, 08:34 PM
Someone who's good at what they do and takes care of their followers? I'd be inspired if my leader singlehandedly destroyed an entire horde of things that want to see me dead.

Wordmiser
2008-01-09, 08:52 PM
Now assuming I am going to do some sort of Sorc15/prestige_caster5//monk2/paladin2/Pious_templar1/??x

What would be the best for the remaining class? And what *should* the martial side do? Archery? Tripper (probably not, as I don't think I'll have enough feats as i is)? Charger? Tank (doubt it).

I would say "Survivalist."
Sorcerer packs a pretty heft offensive punch on its own.
You could do something like this:

Sorcerer 10/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 5//Hexblade 3/Fighter 2/Paladin 3/Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 2/Monk 10

With Ascetic Mage, you get Monk AC, Abjurant Champion AC and a second dose of Charisma-to-Armor Class. Your saves get double your Charisma bonus against spells. It's no tank, but a 17 BAB is probably enough to hit with most ray spells.

Unfortunately, feats are tight. They'll have to go something like this:

1:Spell Focus--Conjuration
H:Spell Focus--Illusion? Necromancy?
3:Combat Casting
F1:Dodge
F2:Mobility
6:Heighten Spell
9:Rapid Metamagic
12:Quicken Spell
15:Skill Focus--Spellcraft
18:Ascetic Mage


I might also want my character to be inspirational to his many followers and worshippers. What class besides Bard and Marshal might do that?
Evangelist? The class is awful, but it seems to match your intent.
There's always Crusader/Warblade, but you knew that.
Warpriest?
Any class with Diplomacy as a class skill?

Forrestfire
2008-01-09, 09:05 PM
you could do this (it was fun to play)

Astral Deva (20)//Warmage 7/Titan Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#titan) 3/Rainbow Servant 10

You'll have 12d8+8d6+(Con modifier*20) hit points, 112+(Int modifier*20) skill points, the ability to spontaneously cast all of the warmage and cleric spells with a caster level of 16 for spells/day and 19 for effects, access to the air,good, and law domains, +12 Str, +8 Dex, +8 Con, +8 Int, +8 Wis, +10 Cha, a truckload of spell-like abilities, the ability to cast in light armor, and some other stuff

be sure to also take ability focus (spells) as one of your feats to add an additional 2 to your spell save DCs

Frosty
2008-01-09, 09:24 PM
Hmm this survivalist idea isn't bad. The thing is, I still want some archery or melee ability, because apparently other gods even of equal power are 50% immune to your magics, and the more powerful gods are like 90% immune. I'd prefer to have some physical damage to fall back on, and not just on rays.

Are there any class feature that'd let you add Cha to to-hit? If I take Flaws I can always Shock-Troop my way to melee damage, but that kind of makes my AC go down the tube.

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-09, 09:33 PM
Are there any class feature that'd let you add Cha to to-hit? If I take Flaws I can always Shock-Troop my way to melee damage, but that kind of makes my AC go down the tube.

Snowflake Wardance(feat) lets you do so, but you need Bardic Music.

Chronicled
2008-01-09, 09:38 PM
Hmm this survivalist idea isn't bad. The thing is, I still want some archery or melee ability, because apparently other gods even of equal power are 50% immune to your magics, and the more powerful gods are like 90% immune. I'd prefer to have some physical damage to fall back on, and not just on rays.

Are there any class feature that'd let you add Cha to to-hit? If I take Flaws I can always Shock-Troop my way to melee damage, but that kind of makes my AC go down the tube.

Even, say, an Orb of Force? (Maximized and Empowered, at that).

Frosty
2008-01-09, 10:19 PM
Right. Immune to magic a certain percentage of time. If it'smagic, it's immune.

Chronicled
2008-01-09, 10:24 PM
Right. Immune to magic a certain percentage of time. If it'smagic, it's immune.

Right, but IIRC the Orb spells aren't considered magic after they're created, and can pass through an Antimagic Field.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-09, 10:59 PM
Right. Immune to magic a certain percentage of time. If it'smagic, it's immune.
Calling function of Gate. Summon Monster Y. Terrain Control. No-SR spells. There's lots of options.

Frosty
2008-01-09, 11:08 PM
Anything else besides Snowflake wardance?

Cthulhu
2008-01-09, 11:27 PM
This build may not be the functional best, but I think it is great fun, and gives you a solid diversified character

1 Ex Paladin / 10 Black Guard / 9 levels of stuff with full BAB and preferably sneak attack (as OA is allowed, the thugish fighter is a good option, so is the thief prestige class with BAB and sneak attack, or hell even levels of rogue won;t disapoint, though if you're going to do that give consideration to making one the first level)

on one side, the plan being to take 11 levels of paladin then convert them all into black guard, then you have full bab, d10 hitpoints, great saves and charisma synergy.

Sorcerer 6 / Whatever / Some otherstuff

It doesn't really matter what you take until level 11 which you need to reserve for your blackguard transition, just take +1 spellcasting per level PRCs or more levels of sorcerer.

Not the best build in the game, but assuming you get the fighter with sneak attack instead of feats you get 9th level spells, full bab, d10 hitpoints all the way, great saves, 14 levels of whatever sorcerer PRC's you can pick up, decent skills and sneak attack - oh and some excellent charisma synergy. Find a suit of plate armour made out of all the spell casting failure reduction stuff, you can get to 0% ASF chance.

Not the best build, but kinda fun.

Frosty
2008-01-10, 12:50 AM
Wait...a charger build might work even without shock trooper!

The Arcane duelist you guys showed me gets this at third level. It's basically reverse Power attack!

Dexterous Attack (Ex): Because the arcane duelist values successful hits over actual damage dealt, she can subtract damage from her chosen melee weapon's potential damage and add the same amount to her attack bonus. However, the weapon must do a minimum 1 point of damage. For example, the arcane duelist who wields a rapier as her chosen weapon can subtract up to 5 points from the damage, since the rapier has a damage potential of 6 points, and add that to her attack bonus. The arcane duelist declares this power before rolling her attack, and the amount subtracted cannot exceed her base attack bonus.

Leap attack for 4 to 1 +damage:-to-hit ratio. Dexterous Attack for -1 damage:+1 to-hit ratio

Net result: +3 damage per BAB with no AC or accuracy loss!

Talic
2008-01-10, 01:17 AM
This build may not be the functional best, but I think it is great fun, and gives you a solid diversified character

1 Ex Paladin / 10 Black Guard / 9 levels of stuff with full BAB and preferably sneak attack (as OA is allowed, the thugish fighter is a good option, so is the thief prestige class with BAB and sneak attack, or hell even levels of rogue won;t disapoint, though if you're going to do that give consideration to making one the first level)

on one side, the plan being to take 11 levels of paladin then convert them all into black guard, then you have full bab, d10 hitpoints, great saves and charisma synergy.

Sorcerer 6 / Whatever / Some otherstuff

It doesn't really matter what you take until level 11 which you need to reserve for your blackguard transition, just take +1 spellcasting per level PRCs or more levels of sorcerer.

Not the best build in the game, but assuming you get the fighter with sneak attack instead of feats you get 9th level spells, full bab, d10 hitpoints all the way, great saves, 14 levels of whatever sorcerer PRC's you can pick up, decent skills and sneak attack - oh and some excellent charisma synergy. Find a suit of plate armour made out of all the spell casting failure reduction stuff, you can get to 0% ASF chance.

Not the best build, but kinda fun.

Not permittable. You may only trade in 11 levels of paladin if you are an epic character. Thus, you must be a 21st level character, and then qualify for blackguard, choosing to immediately trade in your 11 paladin levels for blackguard. (note: This does not have to be at level advancement. This exchange can be made at any time, which allows you to enter this PrC the moment you qualify)

Funkyodor
2008-01-10, 04:12 AM
Wait...a charger build might work even without shock trooper!

The Arcane duelist you guys showed me gets this at third level. It's basically reverse Power attack!

Dexterous Attack (Ex): Because the arcane duelist values successful hits over actual damage dealt, she can subtract damage from her chosen melee weapon's potential damage and add the same amount to her attack bonus. However, the weapon must do a minimum 1 point of damage. For example, the arcane duelist who wields a rapier as her chosen weapon can subtract up to 5 points from the damage, since the rapier has a damage potential of 6 points, and add that to her attack bonus. The arcane duelist declares this power before rolling her attack, and the amount subtracted cannot exceed her base attack bonus.

Leap attack for 4 to 1 +damage:-to-hit ratio. Dexterous Attack for -1 damage:+1 to-hit ratio

Net result: +3 damage per BAB with no AC or accuracy loss!

Dexterous Attack has a maximum that can be applied equal to the weapon damage, so 11 from Great Sword and 5 more from enhancement, means you can only recover 16 if you use a big honking sword in a Dexterous Attack.

Why not Cleric 20//Monk 20? Give 'em a taste of a little Law (kiss right bicep) and Order (kiss left bicep). Simple cleric spell list focusing on self enhancement and helping followers, decent HD, you've got the points to have all 18 physical stats an 18 WIS and a decent INT & CHA before applying level gains, full saves, spells that can give you full BaB, great movement, etc...
You can go Law (for fluff) and maybe Protection, or Travel, or Magic, or Whatever Domains focusing on a concept that has been fostered throughout the characters travels. I am reminded of a scene in Evil Dead when from out of nowhere a priest jumps up to attack the mindless zombie horde (that he gets impaled upon a statues upward pointing arm is beside the point).
Or maybe he can try and start a chruch like in Metal Saga, based upon self perfection. Call it the Fellowship of Muscle. Dump his intelligence into the dirt and try flexing people to death by smacking them with his (start Wren & Stimpy voices) "Large Pectoral Muscles".

Chronicled
2008-01-10, 04:16 AM
Or maybe he can try and start a chruch like in Metal Saga, based upon self perfection. Call it the Fellowship of Muscle. Dump his intelligence into the dirt and try flexing people to death by smacking them with his (start Wren & Stimpy voices) "Large Pectoral Muscles".

Take this one step further, and make him like Armstrong from Fullmetal Alchemist. Start a church that worships your muscles. Inspire your followers by standing bare-chested and flexing mightily.

Frosty
2008-01-10, 11:29 AM
Dexterous Attack has a maximum that can be applied equal to the weapon damage, so 11 from Great Sword and 5 more from enhancement, means you can only recover 16 if you use a big honking sword in a Dexterous Attack.

Aren't there enchantments in Magic item Compendium that adds straight damage like a +1 or +2 enchantment gives +4 damage. With so many ways to raise damage for a weapon, it'd not hard to get that up to 20. A Vicious enchantment will give a good extra 12 damage potential, although the damage to self kinda sucks.

Frosty
2008-01-10, 11:31 AM
Take this one step further, and make him like Armstrong from Fullmetal Alchemist. Start a church that worships your muscles. Inspire your followers by standing bare-chested and flexing mightily.

:smallbiggrin: Funny. Concept might not work for a female though if the character turns out to be female.

Chronicled
2008-01-10, 01:50 PM
:smallbiggrin: Funny. Concept might not work for a female though if the character turns out to be female.

Depends on how inspired you want your followers to be. :smallwink:

Frosty
2008-01-10, 02:10 PM
But it still doesn't quite work thematically because remember we're talking about the church of MUSCLE! :smalltongue:

Oh yeah, now given the assumption that the godling can have up to 4 domains,what domains would you recommend assuming the fledging god/goddess is Good? Yummie domain powers and domain spells...

Keld Denar
2008-01-10, 02:16 PM
Collision is what you are refering too. Its a +5 damage for a +2 equiv enhancement. For AD, however, you want higher max damage right? Something like Holy (+2) or Viscious (+1) add 2d6 for a max of 12 potential damage. Add that to a greatsword and you have 24 max potental damage, meaning you can DA for all 20 points.

mostlyharmful
2008-01-10, 02:30 PM
Specialist Wiz15/Archmage5//Beguiler20

Dump Enchantment and Illusion, specialize in conjuration, transmutation or necromancy.

Huge piles of skills, maxed casting for both sides, most every arcane spell worth talking about, great Int synergy and more fun to play than a barrel of monkies (which is fun, believe me:smallredface: )

Frosty
2008-01-10, 03:17 PM
Fun, yes. Bad when stuck in dead-magic zone, also yes. :) I'd be happy ot do that if I were in a party where people with different roles can support each other. However, as a deity, I'd be expected to be self-sufficient and cover many roles. Which is where domain powers and spells come into play.

BTW, is there any way I can use the Reach metamagic with my Spell-like Abilities? Also, I know there are some domains with Otto's Irresistable dance as the 9th level domain spell. Which domains are those? I know the Joy domain is one.

Wordmiser
2008-01-10, 05:21 PM
Also, I know there are some domains with Otto's Irresistable dance as the 9th level domain spell. Which domains are those?Gnome (PGF) 8, Joy (BoED) 9 and Passion (Eb) 8 are the only ones in Crystal Keep.

None are very good.

Frosty
2008-01-10, 09:17 PM
here's the thing. As gods, we're allowed to use our domain spells as spell-like-abilities without any components (verbal, somatic, or even material) oa number of times per day equal to our Wis bonus, minimum once. So, that's why I wanna find the domains with the best spells...but they also gotta be sensical, an dnot just be throwing together the most broken domains. We can have up tp 4 domains.

Luck domain grants Miracle, and Envy domain grants Wish. Wonder which one to take...

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-10, 10:37 PM
here's the thing. As gods, we're allowed to use our domain spells as spell-like-abilities without any components (verbal, somatic, or even material) oa number of times per day equal to our Wis bonus, minimum once. So, that's why I wanna find the domains with the best spells...but they also gotta be sensical, an dnot just be throwing together the most broken domains. We can have up tp 4 domains.

Luck domain grants Miracle, and Envy domain grants Wish. Wonder which one to take...

IMO take them both since as spell like abilities there is no experience point cost to the PC. Consider taking the Spell domain. Summoning domain could be nice SM7 summons a Movanic Deva from Fiend Folio which can raise dead or Commune.

As a God you could have a Prestige domain like the Initiate of Mystra domain (Magic works in antimagic zones with a Dc check).

Frosty
2008-01-11, 02:12 AM
How would Anyspell work if I am not a prepared caster? Hell, what if I'm not a caster at all?

Chronicled
2008-01-11, 02:33 AM
The Time domain from the SC (and some FR book) is top-notch.

One of the divination ones (Truth, Oracle, Knowledge, Inquisition) would be cool for getting long casting time divinations as single-round abilities.

You could also look for ones that have key spells requiring expensive components, like Forcecage.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 03:06 AM
If I can use Wish/Miracle as a SLA, then I can reproduce forcecage anyways right?

Chronicled
2008-01-11, 03:16 AM
If I can use Wish/Miracle as a SLA, then I can reproduce forcecage anyways right?

Yes. 67890

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-11, 05:32 AM
How would Anyspell work if I am not a prepared caster? Hell, what if I'm not a caster at all?

That'w what it does when you cast the spell the PC spends 15 minutes to memorize the spell so they can cast a the cantrip, first or second second level spell arcane or divine spell from a spell book or scroll you just studied.

Anyspell, Greater is cantrips - fifth level spells. 15 minutes of downtime with a spellbooks provides lots of useful utility or high component cost or limited use spells benefit from having Anyspell.

Without access to a Spellpool use it to increase known spells by changing out arcane spells in Rings of Theurgy things like Rope Trick instead of a scroll so that money can be spent on other gear. Cast an identify without a scroll during downtime. At higher levels the Adept Heal spell is a level 5 spell.

Adumbration
2008-01-11, 08:10 AM
Efreet 19 / (Something) 1 // (Fighter/wizard/sorcerer/rogue) 20.

Wish 3/day, anyone? (+ all those other sweet spell-like abilities)

Frosty
2008-01-11, 10:26 AM
I don't think we're allowed to take 19 monstrous levels on one side.

Adumbration
2008-01-11, 10:35 AM
Awww, why not? It's the perfect goodness! The full hitdice offered by the class levels combined with the supernatural abilities from the monster class leads to great fun and amusement.

Especially if you can cast Wish 3 times a day.

bugsysservant
2008-01-11, 10:50 AM
:smallbiggrin: Funny. Concept might not work for a female though if the character turns out to be female.

Don't be so sexist. The burliest character in the PHB (more so than even the half-orc barbarian :smalleek:) is Ember.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 11:37 AM
Don't be so sexist. The burliest character in the PHB (more so than even the half-orc barbarian :smalleek:) is Ember.

Yes, but I'm referring to this:
Inspire your followers by standing bare-chested and flexing mightily.

The muscle-part is cool. The bare-chested part might not work for all females. :smallsmile:


Awww, why not? It's the perfect goodness! The full hitdice offered by the class levels combined with the supernatural abilities from the monster class leads to great fun and amusement.

Especially if you can cast Wish 3 times a day.

With the Envy domain, my character would already be able to use Wish as a SLA a few times a day. With the Luck domain, my character can do that Miracle as well.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-11, 12:01 PM
Anything else besides Snowflake wardance?

Slippers of battledancing.

And that awesome epic feat, when you go epic.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 01:22 PM
I am intrigued about this Slippers of Battledancing. What does it do, and where is it from?

marjan
2008-01-11, 01:29 PM
I am intrigued about this Slippers of Battledancing. What does it do, and where is it from?

DMGII. I don't remember exactly what they do, but it has something to do with cha, singing and beating.

playswithfire
2008-01-11, 01:33 PM
DMGII. I don't remember exactly what they do, but it has something to do with cha, singing and beating.

Use CHA for hit and damage after moving at least 10 feet. Very useful for the right type of dervish.

TheMeanDM
2008-01-11, 01:44 PM
From what I've seen, nobody has considered a Warmage...

Human Fighter 8/Warmage 12//Cleric 20

Ability to wear all armors.
2 Feats to offset Arcane failure up to Heavy Armor.
Great offensive spells.
Great buffs
Great healing
Weapon Specialization (or weapon focus for ranged touch/ray attacks)
Fighter feats
Sudden metamagic feats (applicable to Cleric spells too!)

Would be a fun mix to play, I would think!

marjan
2008-01-11, 01:46 PM
From what I've seen, nobody has considered a Warmage...


There is a good reason for that.

Zenos
2008-01-11, 01:56 PM
1) ToB is allowed. I forgot to add it to the list.
2) No Druid allowed. and being a cleric would be very strange. You derive your power from a god...but you ARE a god. Maybe worship an ideal?

Just worship yourself. Easy, you say "For MEEE!!!"

Frosty
2008-01-11, 02:00 PM
I'd probably do Beguiler before Warmage. But then, I need CHA synergy.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 02:01 PM
Just worship yourself. Easy, you say "For MEEE!!!"

I should name my character "Aiur" :smallamused:

marjan
2008-01-11, 02:02 PM
I should name my character "Aiur" :smallamused:

Then one level of soulknife is a must.

(If that is protos from starcraft)

Thyatira3902
2008-01-11, 02:03 PM
Ability to wear all armors.
2 Feats to offset Arcane failure up to Heavy Armor.


What feats are those?

marjan
2008-01-11, 02:06 PM
What feats are those?

Battle Caster - Complete Arcane or Adventurer.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 02:09 PM
Then one level of soulknife is a must.

(If that is protos from starcraft)

Or Psionics if I were doing that.

TheMeanDM
2008-01-11, 02:14 PM
Oh duh, you wouldn't even have to take 2 Battle Caster.

Just take 1, and then buy Mithral Full Plate.

That = Medium Armor, with Heavy Armor protection.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 02:25 PM
To be honest though, having armor AC isn't all that great. It doesn't boost Touch AC at all. Using CHA for Monk AC bonus seems like a terrific way to go. Maybe spend some feats if I have them to spare for Shield Specialization (Buckler), give it Animated, and then get Shield Ward to add my Shield bonus to my touch AC.

Can someone remind me whether or not you lose your Monk unarmored bonus to AC if you are caught flat-footed or you lose your dex-bonus to AC for whatever reason? Do monks get Uncanny Dodge? It's been a while since I looked at its class features.

playswithfire
2008-01-11, 02:31 PM
To be honest though, having armor AC isn't all that great. It doesn't boost Touch AC at all. Using CHA for Monk AC bonus seems like a terrific way to go. Maybe spend some feats if I have them to spare for Shield Specialization (Buckler), give it Animated, and then get Shield Ward to add my Shield bonus to my touch AC.

Can someone remind me whether or not you lose your Monk unarmored bonus to AC if you are caught flat-footed or you lose your dex-bonus to AC for whatever reason? Do monks get Uncanny Dodge? It's been a while since I looked at its class features.

Monk ac bonus applies to touch attacks and when flatfooted. Monks get evasion and improved evasion, but not uncanny dodge.

How does your gestalt campaign handle Creature HD/LA/Monstrous progressions from Savage Species? If you only have to put it on one side, there are many fun options

marjan
2008-01-11, 02:33 PM
Can someone remind me whether or not you lose your Monk unarmored bonus to AC if you are caught flat-footed or you lose your dex-bonus to AC for whatever reason? Do monks get Uncanny Dodge? It's been a while since I looked at its class features.

You only lose it if you are imobilized (BTW how is this spelled properly). They don't get Uncanny Dodge.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 02:56 PM
Monk ac bonus applies to touch attacks and when flatfooted. Monks get evasion and improved evasion, but not uncanny dodge.

How does your gestalt campaign handle Creature HD/LA/Monstrous progressions from Savage Species? If you only have to put it on one side, there are many fun options

I actually don't know we handle it, but I think it'd take up both sides, so I'll be using LA +1 or +0.

As for Evasion, do you guys think it's be a good idea to trade it in for the ability to turn back spells at the caster? If a ranged spell requires an attack roll, and it misses you, the spell gets reflected back at the caster, using the same attack roll, against the touch AC of the caster. You can do this Dex-bonus times per day.

This character will likely have a sky-high touch AC.

marjan
2008-01-11, 03:02 PM
I actually don't know we handle it, but I think it'd take up both sides, so I'll be using LA +1 or +0.

As for Evasion, do you guys think it's be a good idea to trade it in for the ability to turn back spells at the caster? If a ranged spell requires an attack roll, and it misses you, the spell gets reflected back at the caster, using the same attack roll, against the touch AC of the caster. You can do this Dex-bonus times per day.

If you take enough monk levels, or you get evasion from other source (ring of improved evasion or 2lvl rogue dip), you can have both, so I think it is good especially since you'll have solid touch AC.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 03:05 PM
There's a ring of Improved Evasion?

marjan
2008-01-11, 03:07 PM
There's a ring of Improved Evasion?

No. My mistake, it's just Evasion.

TheMeanDM
2008-01-11, 03:23 PM
If you're so worried about touch attacks (i.e. spells, obviously) then by all means, build the uber-spell returner (is that the Occult Slayer PRC?).

And get Rings of Protection (deflection), Natural Armor amulet, and anything that adds Sacred & Luck bonuses. I don't think any of those get ignored during Touch attack.

playswithfire
2008-01-11, 03:25 PM
This character will likely have a sky-high touch AC.
Human
Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/War Mind 5//Unarmed Swordsage 2/Bard 4/Wilder 2/Whatever 12
Where whatever is whether you want to focus on Maneuvers, Psionics or Magic

Shadow Blade, Ascetic Mage, Requirements for Dervish and the TWF chain

Full BAB; 7 attacks per round. More if you tack on some of the higher level tiger claw boosts or haste and war mind 5 lets you also make each attack against an adjacent character if one is there

Swordsage + Ascetic Mage gets you an AC of Light Armor + DEX up to Armor Limit + CHA + Whatever Natural Armor you want to buy + deflection
Wilder 2 lets you add your CHA bonus to your touch AC up to your total AC (so, in this case up to your light armor + natural armor)
Dervish adds another +3 to both touch and normal AC

DEX,INT and CHA +5 to damage if you use a Shadow blade weapon and dervish dance wearing the slippers of battle dancing (drop INT if the thing is immune to sneak attack)

ZekeArgo
2008-01-11, 03:34 PM
Not being a fan of the Mage of the Arcane Order, and starved for ideas for a level 50 gestalt arena game I've been trying to craft an interesting character for, I've got what seems like a pretty solid 20 level build here.

Hexblade 3/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Monk 14//Sorcerer 5/Mindbender 1/Fiend-Blooded 9/Archmage 5.

Lots of crazy abilities, very suitable for an evil campaign or as a BBEG.

planning to advance the "melee" side pure monk into epic levels, and at the very least go Iot7V, then who knows what else after 20th

Frosty
2008-01-11, 04:14 PM
1 - Where is War Mind and Wilder from?
2 - Natural armor doesn't help vs Touch attacks right?
3 - If you have both swordsage and monk levels, do you get Wis/Cha to AC twice?

playswithfire
2008-01-11, 04:18 PM
1 - Where is War Mind and Wilder from?
2 - Natural armor doesn't help vs Touch attacks right?
3 - If you have both swordsage and monk levels, do you get Wis/Cha to AC twice?

1. Expanded Psionics Handbook/SRD
2. Normally, no; but the wilder ability will let you add CHA to touch AC up to total AC, which includes natural armor
3. Consensus is no; it's essentially the same thing so you can't get it twice

Frosty
2008-01-11, 04:34 PM
Does War Minds and Wilders require psionic ability to get into? Or are they base classes that give psionic abilities?

I keep hearing about unarmed swordsages. Is that a variant that is posted on the web somewhere?

And the Wilder's ability to add CHA to touch AC up to total AC, what does the total AC include? Dodge + Armor + Shield + Natural + Deflection + Monk/Swordsage bonus AC?

Wordmiser
2008-01-11, 04:40 PM
Does War Minds and Wilders require psionic ability to get into? Or are they base classes that give psionic abilities?

I keep hearing about unarmed swordsages. Is that a variant that is posted on the web somewhere?

And the Wilder's ability to add CHA to touch AC up to total AC, what does the total AC include? Dodge + Armor + Shield + Natural + Deflection + Monk/Swordsage bonus AC?
Wilder is a Base Class.
Wilder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm)is here.
Warmind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm)is here. It requires some Know (Psionics) ranks and a small pp reserve.
Unarmed Swordsages are in the "Adaption" section of the Swordsage class description.


If you're so worried about touch attacks (i.e. spells, obviously) then by all means, build the uber-spell returner (is that the Occult Slayer PRC?). Or you could just use the Spell Turning spell to get it to actually work once in a while. And to use it more than twice a day.

playswithfire
2008-01-11, 04:42 PM
Does War Minds and Wilders require psionic ability to get into? Or are they base classes that give psionic abilities?

I keep hearing about unarmed swordsages. Is that a variant that is posted on the web somewhere?

And the Wilder's ability to add CHA to touch AC up to total AC, what does the total AC include? Dodge + Armor + Shield + Natural + Deflection + Monk/Swordsage bonus AC?

Wilder's a Charisma-based psionic base class; basically the psionic Sorcerer. Warmind is prestige class that requires at least 1 power point and 8 ranks in knowledge(psionics)

Unarmed Swordsage is in ToB. It's listed right after the main Swordsage entry under 'Adaptation'. Lose light armor proficiency and gain unarmed damage that scales like monk.

Everything you listed. Basically, as a Wilder, figure out your AC(including everything you've got). Figure out your touch AC(again, including everything that increases your touch AC). If your touch AC + your CHA mod is less than your AC, then increase your touch AC by your CHA mod.

If your touch AC + your CHA mod is greater than your AC, then your touch AC = your AC.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-11, 04:42 PM
Late to the game again...here's my two cents

Human

Ftr 2/ Swash 3/ Inv Blade 5/ Duelist 10

and

Monk 2/ Sor 18

Must have feats Force of Personality, Aesetic Mage

You get the BAB of a fighter, d10's for HD, add you Int modifier to your AC twice, your Cha is added to AC as well as powering your spells, you get to add your Int bonus to damage, and if you take the two-weapon fighting feats you can become a true whirling dervish of destruction. You need good Dex, Int and Cha. You have a slightly lower Fort save, but your Ref and Will are through the roof with evasion. Use kukris to get the expanded threat range, and use your favorite Bite of the Werecritter to bump your Str score to deal ungodly damage. Throw in some permanent magic items for stats, a ring of protection, and a monk's belt, and you should get an unarmored character with an AC above 40 (closer to 50), and that's all touch AC baby. Throw on some natural armor and the Scintilating Scales spell, and it just keeps getting higher and higher.

this build has two weaknesses:
1 You do have a lower than average Fort save,
2 You are vulnerable to spells that don't require an attack roll.

I built this as a BEEG in a geshtalt campaign, and by 15th level with a few spells running i had an armor class of 56. Not a happy party!

playswithfire
2008-01-11, 04:54 PM
You get the BAB of a fighter, d10's for HD, add you Int modifier to your AC twice, your Cha is added to AC as well as powering your spells, you get to add your Int bonus to damage, and if you take the two-weapon fighting feats you can become a true whirling dervish of destruction.

Do the AC bonuses from Duelist and Invisible Blade stack? Wouldn't they not for the same reason Swordsage and monk don't stack? (Or do those stack and people have misled me?)

I'd guess levels from both would stack to determine the max INT you can add to your DEX bonus, but you wouldn't get to add them both, unless I'm missing something.

Nice build either way.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 05:27 PM
IIRC, isn't Duelist a crappier version of Swashbuckler? I wonder if we can fit 2 level of Paladin in there for CHA to saves.

Darn it...so hard to have it all...CHA to saves, Mettle, Evasion, high touch AC, damage ability, spellcasting...

playswithfire
2008-01-11, 06:45 PM
IIRC, isn't Duelist a crappier version of Swashbuckler? I wonder if we can fit 2 level of Paladin in there for CHA to saves.

Darn it...so hard to have it all...CHA to saves, Mettle, Evasion, high touch AC, damage ability, spellcasting...

How do you feel about serving Bahamut (need it for the gauntlets)?

Fighter 2/Swashbuckler3/Dervish 10/War Mind 5//
Swordsage 2/Bard 4/Wilder 2/Paladin 2/Swordsage +10

Grab a monk's Belt, Gauntlet of the Talon and Slippers of Battledancing
True Believer, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Two weapon Fighting chain, Ascetic Mage, Devoted Performer, Shadow Blade

Dervish dance while in assassin's stance with your
Slashing unarmed strikes doing 2d10+DEX+INT+CHA+5(+2d6 whenever you're flanking)

With the right maneuvers, you can get 12 attacks in one round; sadly not every round, but that'll be a fun round.

Very little spellcasting (probably use your 1st level slots to cast Expedition Retreat to get your speed high enough for insane dances)

If you're like me and aren't a huge fan of once/day abilities, drop a level of Dervish for the Lion Spirit totem Barbarian to get Pounce.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 06:59 PM
If we somehow fit 3 levels of Arcane Duelist in there, would an additional CHA to AC be added?

playswithfire
2008-01-11, 07:37 PM
If we somehow fit 3 levels of Arcane Duelist in there, would an additional CHA to AC be added?

I believe you'd get CHA to DEX as well as CHA to untyped, yes. Since Wisdom is becoming less important as it's being replaced*, you might want to drop War Mind for 3 levels of Arcane Duelist and 2 of Bloodclaw Master (full STR which becomes CHA to damage with offhand weapons and no TWF penalties with tiger claw weapons). That drops your BAB to 18, but that's offset by the lack of TWF penalties; or you can drop one level of Swordsage for the pounce barbarian and keep it at 19, raising your BAB a net of 1 when TWF-ing, but that'd cost you two 8th-level maneuvers.

*Also, a closer re-reading of sweeping strike (War Mind 5) brings up the line "A war mind cannot use this ability if he has moved more than 10 feet since the end of his last turn" meaning it wouldn't work in a dance anyway; I somehow never noticed that before

So, drop War Mind 5 for Arcane Duelist 3/Bloodclaw Master 2 or Arcane Duelist 5 at your discretion

Frosty
2008-01-11, 07:54 PM
Wisdom is still kind of important. How many domains we get is based on our wisdom. And here I was thinking "Cool. 75 pt-buy. I will want for NOTHING! WORSHIP ME" :smallredface:

marjan
2008-01-11, 07:56 PM
...75 pt-buy....WORSHIP ME" :smallredface:

I will.:smallcool:

*bows*

Frosty
2008-01-11, 08:59 PM
Although I shudder at what kind of enemies we will be facing. I mean, if you were the DM and you wantedto challenge a character like this? What would you throw at the character? Elder Wyrms and Balors as mooks?

Collin152
2008-01-11, 09:44 PM
Ridicuolusly advaced monsters. Like that Ikea tarrasque.
Creatures who have DR Infinite/Artifact
Some kinda monster whose power is dependant on what it is fighting
Other Gods
A druid
Great Wyrms with class levels
An epic Wizard
etc.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 10:01 PM
Ridicuolusly advaced monsters. Like that Ikea tarrasque.
Creatures who have DR Infinite/Artifact
Some kinda monster whose power is dependant on what it is fighting
Other Gods
A druid
Great Wyrms with class levels
An epic Wizard
etc.

Wait...you didn't qualify the druid as epic like you did with the Wizard. Did you leave something out?

Felius
2008-01-11, 10:31 PM
No he said an epic wizard because but it's implicit that he is not batman nor epic-spelled cheesed (infinite solars, forward)

The Batman Wizard, and the Overcheesed wizard aren't proper challenges for the character, because NOTHING can challenge themselves.
Tell me, what you can do with a batman wizard?

Collin152
2008-01-11, 11:06 PM
Wait...you didn't qualify the druid as epic like you did with the Wizard. Did you leave something out?

Sadly, no.

Frosty
2008-01-12, 04:18 AM
Are you equating a druid's power with that of lesser deities? :smalleek:

Anyhow, let's say that I decide to go with sorc/iot7v/archmage//monk/paladin/wilder/Pious Templar/some_survivalist_class_with_good_BAB, what kind of equipment would you get for the character? Assume you have the WBL of a level 20.

Dear god, with all the multiclassing I don't think I can afford all the feats!

I need Spell Focus (Abjuration), Greater Spell Focus (Adjuration), Spell Focus (some other school), skill focus (spellcraft), Weapon Focus, True Believer, possibly dodge, mobility, Ascetic Mage, Power Attack, Leap Attack.

I need a way to get more feats!!!

EDIT: I know...FIGHTER LEVELS!

Adumbration
2008-01-12, 04:26 AM
Or Flaws. If your DM allows them, that is.

laughing.fox
2008-01-12, 05:37 AM
Does Gestalt allow you to use one side of your character levels to go towards a monster race? If so, are you allowing this?

Adumbration
2008-01-12, 05:41 AM
Apparently not. I already suggested Efreet.

laughing.fox
2008-01-12, 05:47 AM
That's too bad. I was just working on a level 20 gestalt character who had 15 levels in Inevitable: Zelekhut and a whole bunch in fighter. I don't know if it would be particularly good as level 20 Gestalt characters go, but it will be hella fun to play with the massive fly speed and the construct traits and the electric chain hands. And I'm giving him a lance and Spirited Charge (assuming I'm allowed to perform a lance charge using the lower half of my robot-centaur body as my mount).

But that is neither here nor there. Only awesome.

EDIT: In a point buy system like the one being used here, what would one do to make a character with no Constitution score like a construct? Spend zero points?

Forrestfire
2008-01-12, 11:22 AM
to get more feats you could play an elf and do the embrace/shun the dark chaos trick on you elven proficiencies

Ganurath
2008-01-12, 11:59 AM
IIRC, isn't Duelist a crappier version of Swashbuckler? I wonder if we can fit 2 level of Paladin in there for CHA to saves.

Darn it...so hard to have it all...CHA to saves, Mettle, Evasion, high touch AC, damage ability, spellcasting...Hexblade//Rogue, as the deity of misfortune? Paladin//Favored Soul, as the deity of altruism and/or community? Monk/Paladin//Kensai/Paladin for the deity of purification? Warlock//Bard for the deity of deceit?

Collin152
2008-01-12, 05:57 PM
Are you equating a druid's power with that of lesser deities? :smalleek:


Okay, maybe not a Druid. A Pack of Druids, maybe.

Ganurath
2008-01-12, 11:06 PM
Okay, maybe not a Druid. A Pack of Druids, maybe.An Elan Druid, since no maximum age + no aging penalties = historians with migraines.

FlyMolo
2008-01-12, 11:23 PM
Ok, there may be a campaign starting soon where each player begins as a level 20 gestalt character. Given the assumption that Epic rules will not be used, and that there will be no normal leveling ups (you just gain some variant divine-rank abilities as you gain more exp), what kind of build would you use? Assume you have access to:

Core, PHB two, all Complete books, Xpanded Psionics handbook (but I don't want to be a psionic character), Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Fiendish Codex 1 and 2, Unearthed Arcana, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Dragonomicon, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Citiscape, Magic Item Compendium, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Book of Vile Darkness (but I won't be evil)

What kind of build would be powerful but not to the point of, "Ok, there's more cheese here than in France." It should be something that makes sense thematically, not a random amalgamation of dips to make the most mechanically powerful character. Also assume that the players will not necessarily be working with each other, although they do not necessarily work against each other either. This character should be somewhat self-sufficient, so most likely this character should have some form of magical prowess.

Oh and also, no Druids.

Self sufficient with magical prowess? Sounds like a warlock 20/spellthief 20 build to me. Crawl on the walls, turn invisible, blast people, dispel magic at will(<- gotta like that one), detect magic at will(As a class feature!), DR, fast healing, raise an army of undead, turn other people into shrews(or wights, take your pick), Fast healing, and the ability to make any magic item? What's not to like? And the best part is, you can have all the above invocations plus about 5 more. Plus your spellthief abilities. Oh, and you can fly. Forgot that one.

Edit: okay, so you won't be a god in melee. But when you can dimdoor at will, leaving behind an image of yourself, who needs melee?

Wordmiser
2008-01-13, 01:03 AM
Self sufficient with magical prowess? Sounds like a warlock 20/spellthief 20 build to me. Crawl on the walls, turn invisible, blast people, dispel magic at will(<- gotta like that one), detect magic at will(As a class feature!), DR, fast healing, raise an army of undead, turn other people into shrews(or wights, take your pick), Fast healing, and the ability to make any magic item? What's not to like? And the best part is, you can have all the above invocations plus about 5 more. Plus your spellthief abilities. Oh, and you can fly. Forgot that one.One good save and d6 hit dice aren't very good for staying alive. Even with a couple points of damage reduction.

And where's your offense coming from? You might hang from the ceiling doing 50 damage per round, but who cares? The Paladin//Aristocrat was doing that much at level 6.

Spellthief's neat, but why not cast spells of your own? You'd be able to actually control your abilities rather than praying for something useful.

The magic items are the only redeeming quality this guy would have.

[edit:]To make this general idea useful, though:
Something like Wizard 10/Sacred Exorcist 10//Ranger 10/Spellthief 10 would do a pretty good job with what you describe. Of course, it could be tweaked further, but it's simple and fairly effective as-is.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-13, 03:18 AM
Although I shudder at what kind of enemies we will be facing. I mean, if you were the DM and you wantedto challenge a character like this? What would you throw at the character? Elder Wyrms and Balors as mooks?


I wouldn't be surprised to see an Elder Evil since many of them have Divine Immunities and Defenses.

Frosty
2008-01-13, 02:05 PM
The d6 and one good save isn't that apealing I agree. And while 50 damage a turn may be almost okfor normal people, remember, these characters have worshippers...worshippers that expect to see miraculous and unbelievable things done.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-14, 01:34 PM
Do the AC bonuses from Duelist and Invisible Blade stack? Wouldn't they not for the same reason Swordsage and monk don't stack? (Or do those stack and people have misled me?)

I'd guess levels from both would stack to determine the max INT you can add to your DEX bonus, but you wouldn't get to add them both, unless I'm missing something.

Nice build either way.

Actually, if you read Duelist is specifically says that you get your Int modifier to your Dex modifier, so if you have Dex +5 and Int +5 that would be a Dex modifier of +10 to AC. Inv Blade says that you add your Int modifier to AC, so your character would have a +10 Dex to AC and a +5 Int to AC.

But even if your DM is hesitant, it's still a good build. With gestalt characters, you have to worry about the touch specialist with a fighter BAB. When you start throwing his dodge bonuses around, he become nigh unhittable. (For crying out loud, he gets a +8 Dodge bonus to AC for moving through treatened squares.)

Plus he has 7+ attacks per round with TWF that WILL hit, with an extended threat range an a hefty damage modifier. (And we all know that what makes a crit damage heavy is the modifier, not the weapon itself.)

Myself, I would take the Pierce Magical Protection and related feats jsut to screw with those epic level casters. Hit 'em where it hurts, in their armor class with a tareted dispel.

Thrawn183
2008-01-14, 07:05 PM
I like mixing Chameleon on one side with Psion on the other:

Barbarian 2/Cleric 1(Trickery/War)/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/Frenzied Berserker 5//Psion 20

OR

Rogue 3/Barbarian 2/Chameleon 7/Bear Warrior 7/Horizon Walker 1//Psion 20

Doesn't feel like a wizard getting 9th level spells, but man can these pack a wallop.

ChaosDefender24
2008-01-14, 07:48 PM
One of the most applauded gestalts that I know of is factotum 20/warblade 20.