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Conners
2008-01-07, 07:46 PM
I was wondering how monsters could somehow make a fairer stand against adventuring parties. After all, how can 4 to 6 people defeat 150+ gnolls? I'm not saying this shouldn't be possible, I just dislike that they can manage this at about 3rd level...

One idea I had was to just toughen up your average monsters. Give your kobold soldiers the elite array, or maybe a level of rogue. Make gnolls monstrous humanoid and give them a level of warrior--or barbarian if you want to make them really savage.
My main qualm is how these heroes just rise up above litches, demons and even gods, but only among the "civilized" races. Why is it that when the first level adventurers all from one area, exterminate the combination of six goblin tribes without encountering a equally powerful group? Shouldn't the likelihood of a goblin becoming becoming a stealthy a powerful rogue be the same as for a halfling or elf?

My idea for adventurers coming to be, is that DnD gods gifting them with the destiny of greatest. In some rare cases, they may just raise to power out of their own skill rather than divine intervention--though the gods aren't very happy about it. Since evil gods are generally weaker and less in numbers, as well as more selfish, you could say this explains there not being as many monster adventurers--but on the other hand, don't they get weaker still for every tribe they lose? If 1 out of 100 humans become an adventurer of great power, you'd think 1 out of 1,000 goblins would become the same.

There is, however, the problem of still having the game fun for the PCs. With making the monsters tougher:
One idea is that you take a more stealthy, strategic approach to things like eliminating the local gnoll pack--leading them to a narrow complex of tunnels where you kill them through traps, ambush, and the fact only one of them at a time can come at you.
Another idea I had was to take what seems the most realistic approach: Larger PC groups. You'd do this by either having each player have two (or even more) characters, or by having several NPC characters of equal or similar power to help them. Character death would be more common if they weren't careful, but things would be more exciting if five gnolls suddenly required caution to be dealt with.

Now, if we have enemy heroes:
Half the PCs could play as the champions of the goblin tribe the others are fighting against. This would also be very fun in it's competitive nature, but what about when the PCs all want to be on the same team?
When you want all the PCs on one team, the best idea is to give the players some sort of advantage. For example, if they are fifth level, they may have gathered up some very nice magic items from their past travels. The champions of the goblin tribe, however, have never left their home except for conquest, and will generally have much fewer or weaker magic items. Similarly, a particularly savage tribe of kobolds aren't likely to have full-plate armour for their cleric champion.
You could also make it that the adventurer parties can never have more than two come from the same place (except for particularly large cities). This might not seem a very great difference to the mechanics of the game--but it means the likelihood of there being more than two champions in one monster tribe very low. This can be especially handy if you plan to make the enemy champions stronger than your PCs.

So, any other ideas on how to balance realism in adventures without making them too hard or not fun? Also, are there any problems with the above ideas you can see?

Chronicled
2008-01-07, 07:50 PM
Re: Goblin/Orc Extermination

Skeletons are also suitable for low-level opponents, and don't have nearly as many moral ramifications involved with their destruction. It's a wonder they aren't used more often.

Stormcrow
2008-01-07, 07:55 PM
I'd like to run your 4-6 level three characters against my 150+ MM gnolls and see how many of them survive. My prediction... 0.

In my campaign I make the monsters fight and survive until it's the right time for them to die. Sure sometimes it isn't what the book says, but its no fun for the players either if everything goes down in one blow. I keep my group on the razors edge of death and it makes the game exciting.

SimperingToad
2008-01-07, 08:03 PM
It's an interesting concept of having half the players on one 'team' versus the others. Make it like a strategy/tactical boardgame. Pretty much like the norm (i.e. DM vs. players), but the DM doesn't have to make as many decisions. Just sit back and watch 'em duke it out.

Did read an old Dragon article many moons ago where a group of players wanted to be the bad guys for once, so the DM set them up as a band of goblins, orcs, ogres, etc. who went a pillaging in this quaint little villa.

When the players resumed their normal characters, they discovered that their homes had been ransacked by a group of goblins, orcs, ogres, etc.

I think the reason that most (not all) of the big-baddies don't wander around in bunches is largely due to their nature. Not only does evil tend to feed upon itself, but it produces some rather large egos. They all want to be leader of the pack, and any challenger to their authority is dealt with accordingly. Finding a way to get around that may be your key.

Regards,
the 'Toad

Conners
2008-01-07, 08:03 PM
Re: Goblin/Orc Extermination

Skeletons are also suitable for low-level opponents, and don't have nearly as many moral ramifications involved with their destruction. It's a wonder they aren't used more often. Good idea, thanks :smallbiggrin:.

Wouldn't work so well for one of my other campaign settings, though... Undead are practically non-existent, and the whole ordeal is considered a myth. When they do arise, even the common skeleton would be something like CR 3. It'd be a higher-level game.
The other problem is that fight to many skeletons and it gets old, especially since they have no personality. No fear, no cunning, no tying them up and threatening them to tell you all they know about the main lair. Also, the PCs would probably catch on, suddenly making the party into the Clerics' and Paladins' Union :smallbiggrin:, LOL!


I'd like to run your 4-6 level three characters against my 150+ MM gnolls and see how many of them survive. My prediction... 0.

In my campaign I make the monsters fight and survive until it's the right time for them to die. Sure sometimes it isn't what the book says, but its no fun for the players either if everything goes down in one blow. I keep my group on the razors edge of death and it makes the game exciting. Yeah, I do too. However, I haven't gotten enough practice DMing to know the subtle difference from putting them on the edge of death, and stabbing the edge right through them. Although monster cunning is a good way to settle it, it's still unsettling that six people can take forty gnolls in an open field like it's a piece of cake. The reason toughening up monsters is fun :smallbiggrin:.

Please give an example for what your gnolls would do to the PCs that is more effective then the norm.


It's an interesting concept of having half the players on one 'team' versus the others. Make it like a strategy/tactical boardgame. Pretty much like the norm (i.e. DM vs. players), but the DM doesn't have to make as many decisions. Just sit back and watch 'em duke it out.

Did read an old Dragon article many moons ago where a group of players wanted to be the bad guys for once, so the DM set them up as a band of goblins, orcs, ogres, etc. who went a pillaging in this quaint little villa.

When the players resumed their normal characters, they discovered that their homes had been ransacked by a group of goblins, orcs, ogres, etc.

I think the reason that most (not all) of the big-baddies don't wander around in bunches is largely due to their nature. Not only does evil tend to feed upon itself, but it produces some rather large egos. They all want to be leader of the pack, and any challenger to their authority is dealt with accordingly. Finding a way to get around that may be your key.

Regards,
the 'Toad You have a good point about evil not mixing. However, not all villains are going to kill each other at the drop of a hat--at least not until they're about to divide up the world.
This also brings me to, "all goblins are evil." Certainly there would be a majority of savage blood-thirsty tribes, but there should still be a minority that aren't that way. This would be particularly interesting for adventures where the PCs are monsters--shunned by their evil kin, and crushed by the civilized races for being among the "evil races".
An idea I particularly fancy is that paladins don't really have to be good, as long as they're what their deity considers "good". With the PCs as monsters, they'd watch paladins kill the races their gods deem "evil", or even each other if their gods are at ends! Women, children and the helpless, all in the name of their god's "righteous" crusade.

Worira
2008-01-07, 08:22 PM
Goblins (http://www.goblinscomic.com/d/20050626.html): the webcomic you're going to read in its entirety right now.

Conners
2008-01-07, 08:25 PM
Goblins (http://www.goblinscomic.com/d/20050626.html): the webcomic you're going to read in its entirety right now. Heheh, I've actually been reading that for a while now :smallbiggrin:.

Metal Head
2008-01-07, 08:28 PM
It's because the whole concept of cliche fantasy as we know it would have a heart attack if people used common sense. Now go back to being an illogical idiot!

ashmanonar
2008-01-07, 08:32 PM
I'd like to run your 4-6 level three characters against my 150+ MM gnolls and see how many of them survive. My prediction... 0.

In my campaign I make the monsters fight and survive until it's the right time for them to die. Sure sometimes it isn't what the book says, but its no fun for the players either if everything goes down in one blow. I keep my group on the razors edge of death and it makes the game exciting.

...Pastor Pat?

Just kidding, if you were Pastor Pat you would use ability drains and level drains. >.>

Saph
2008-01-07, 08:39 PM
One idea I had was to just toughen up your average monsters. Give your kobold soldiers the elite array, or maybe a level of rogue. Make gnolls monstrous humanoid and give them a level of warrior--or barbarian if you want to make them really savage.
My main qualm is how these heroes just rise up above litches, demons and even gods, but only among the "civilized" races. Why is it that when the first level adventurers all from one area, exterminate the combination of six goblin tribes without encountering a equally powerful group? Shouldn't the likelihood of a goblin becoming becoming a stealthy a powerful rogue be the same as for a halfling or elf?

Funny, I don't remember seeing anything in the Monster Manual saying "All monstrous humanoids must be 1st-level warriors, and must lose all the battles they fight". Guess I must have missed it. :P

But seriously - no-one's suggesting you play this way, and from my own experience most DMs with a bit of experience don't run games this way either. The 'weak monstrous humanoids with 1 level of warrior' syndrome comes largely from the fact that 1st-level PCs have capabilities that are so starkly pathetic that 1st-level goblins and kobolds are about the only thing they can handle safely.

It's quite realistic to have the PCs run into much tougher and better-organised monsters and get TPKed regularly, but if you do this don't be surprised when the players act with even less mercy towards monstrous humanoids than is usual. :)

- Saph

Hawriel
2008-01-08, 02:20 AM
my party of 8 characters was ambushed by 50 goblins. the goblins won.

Conners
2008-01-08, 02:33 AM
my party of 8 characters was ambushed by 50 goblins. the goblins won. LOL :smallbiggrin:!! How did that happen? Were they normal goblins? Also, did they imprison you or slaughter you?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-01-08, 02:34 AM
Intelligent "monsters" in any game I run are just as likely to have class levels as any other NPC, which is rather likely. In fact, I'm usually just lazy enough in determining encounters that I just level the monsters with my players to give an appropriate Encounter Level (rather than trying to keep a consistent number of mook vs. elite goblins, for example). I'm not sure if my players have caught onto this yet.

I also use a disproportionate number of PC race enemies. I should remember to make my random bandits orcs or something occasionally.

Sebastian
2008-01-08, 07:47 AM
Probably I'm alone in this but I actually liked level cap and monsters rules in 2nd edition, I just think they make more sense, I mean if adventurers/class levels as as common between i.e. kobolds as they are with humans why arent' the kobolds the dominant race in the world (expecially with their birth rate)?

hewhosaysfish
2008-01-08, 10:10 AM
Probably I'm alone in this but I actually liked level cap and monsters rules in 2nd edition, I just think they make more sense, I mean if adventurers/class levels as as common between i.e. kobolds as they are with humans why arent' the kobolds the dominant race in the world (expecially with their birth rate)?

Because, in theory, most NPCs don't have PC classes, they have NPC classes (hence the name). Also, again in theory, NPCs have non-elite stats (average 10 or 11) compared to a PCs elite stats (average 12-13). And finally, most NPCs are low level with only a dozen or so mid-level characters in a settlements of hundreds - theoretically. I know these things to be true because my DMG tells me so. The PCs are special, extraordinary. Theoretically.

[Explaining why the entire world hasn't been eaten by Aboleths is left as an exercise for the reader.]

The problem is that not many DMs/published settings/published adventures seem to follow these guidelines. Possibly those that did were eaten by Aboleths and these are all that remain...

To the address the original point: It's quite a task to take the basic assumptions of a generic, everything-is-in DnD setting and force them to coherence and reason. Try starting from scratch with these thoughts:

What levels do most of the (adult) population of the world range across?

Everyone is low-mid level/NPCs classed/non-elite:
Get rid of all the really nasty monsters, or invent some constraining circumstance, some reason why Aboleths haven't et all these level 1
Commoners. Will the PCs be able to go beyond the "normal" limits or will the campaign be ended before then? If they do, then how/why? Why are the PCs PC classed/elite? Do they have some special destiny/fate or are they just outliers on probability curve? What sort of enemies will they fight? Will the constraints break and the nasty monsters escape or will the PCs go to them? Will entirely new monsters arrive in the world from Somewhere Beyond? Plot material here. What about classed enemies? Do some dark agents have an equal and opposite destiny? Will other outliers on the curve be drawn to the tales of heroism and derring-do? Either way, you may be stretched to explain away a large number of them.

Everyone is mid-high level/PC classed/elite:
Are all babies born at 10th level? It seems unlikely. Do they level up during childhood/adolesecence? If so, how? NPCs don't have to follow the same xp rules as PCs (or any rules at all) but there should be some justification. Or do they level up through apprenticeship/higher education? How quickly? And why so much more rapidly than in later life? Will the PCs start at mid levels and work up or will they be small fry for a while? If the latter, what sort of adventures will (can) the PCs have and why don't the grown-ups just swoop in and sort everything out instead of leaving it to them? Consider magic: if you can't see how spells like Detect Evil/Thoughts, Teleport, Fabricate can change a world then just search these boards for "wizard loophole" or "batman cheese" (or "endless, pointeless arguments" :smallwink: ). And while wizards get the most flak, divine spells are not easy either: Raise Dead, Remove Disease, Plant Growth, etc. How do these affect the world? If they don't, why? And what will happen when the PCs try?

Goes all the way from 1-20/PC and NPC/elite and non-elite:
Are the high level characters in charge of the towns where they live? If not, why not? They'd be better at it. Does Iftandibilus the the level 27 Wizard just live next door to Bob the level 3 cobbler? Are members of one nation/race higher level than the other? Do elves have mental disabilities? Why hasn't the higher level power conquered the lower, by force, economics or subtler maneuvers? Do national ties keep one race from dominating another? Does racial solidarity keep one nation from annexing another? Are the higher level guys just too Good to try shenanigans? Why hasn't the higher level power taught the lower one - or the lower one copied whatever the higher one is doing right? Do cultural differences create the divide? Is it not something that can be taught/copied? How do NPCs gain xp/level up anyway? Why haven't lower CR critters been wiped out by both the higher CR monsters and the high level humanoids?

Conners
2008-01-09, 01:12 AM
@Nerd-o-rama: They haven't caught on that the goblins suddenly take five hits instead of two?

@Sebastian: Never played 2ndED sorry, so I can't comment.

hewhosaysfish: Hmmm....

Everyone is low-mid level/NPCs classed/non-elite: Well, for starters, the aboleths are grossly outnumbered, and they're REALLY slow on land--I also assume they're rare. PCs are above the norm still, I merely dislike how easily and quickly they become so. PCs would fight the normal things, but have much tougher time. They'd also encounter monsters that have risen above the others, as they have risen.

Everyone is mid-high level/PC classed/elite: Babies would never be tenth level unless: A) They were a deity's baby. B) They're a sorcerer so powerful that at adulthood they'd ascend to godhood. C) Some really odd reason(s)...
At childhood/adolescence, they're generally level 1 except in the above circumstance, or it's a particularly tough race like with dragons.
NPCs level up through living. Practise thievery and you'll get levels of rogue, practise blacksmithing and you'll get levels of Expert (Blacksmith), live near a lot of bandits in a village that is constantly raided and you'll get levels of warrior or fighter, etcetera. If they live a generally soft life, however, then they aren't likely to level up much.
In some larger cities, particularly rich nobles would hire a powerful wizard to teleport them to another city, or hire the Arc Priest to raise a deceased friend. FEW people would raise to level 10 or beyond. Only the incredibly skilled, those blessed by a god or gods, and the ruling individuals who raise to their position by skill.

Goes all the way from 1-20/PC and NPC/elite and non-elite: They generally are in charge, but are rarely forced to take charge. A hermit druid rarely want to be the mayor of town.
If they wanted to be in charge, it would depend on the situation: A) Do the citizens hate this powerful being? If so, s/he'll have to control them with might and fear, or somehow win them over to him/her. B) Maybe there are leaders currently in control. Do you kill them off? And won't the citizens be unhappy if you do? Isn't it amoral to you? C) Maybe if you take charge, you'll reveal yourself to your enemies. PErhaps you are in charge... secretly--pulling the strings from the shadows, with the ruler under your thumb.
Although elves live longer, yes, but are they necessarily more skilled with the arcane? Perhaps humans, though shorter lived, have a closer connection to it which allows them to match the much longer practised elves?
A problem with trying to conquer another nation: Won't that draw out the special individuals of that nation into rallying against you? And that other nation, cloistering you between the one you want to attack, has been a little... "anxious" towards you. Still, yes, there will be more powerful nations trying to conquer the world, there always have been. But: NO ONE has literally conquered the entire known world.
Low CR monsters generally have to survive by hiding, having a faster breeding rate, making alliances with the stronger races, and being more cunning in general.

That answer your questions?

Draz74
2008-01-09, 01:35 AM
So, any other ideas on how to balance realism in adventures without making them too hard or not fun?

You seem like the kind of gamer who would appreciate E6 (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206323).

LibraryOgre
2008-01-09, 01:36 AM
One thing I would suggest is taking a look at the demographics chart in the DMG. Now, those charts are slanted for areas that are primarily human... but replace the 97% human line with "Goblin". If you've got 150 goblins in a "hamlet" (page 137), by the DMG, then you've got a chance of seeing a 6th level warrior in the mix, or a 4th level adept... and that's just assuming they have the same demographics as settled humanoids.

Icewalker
2008-01-09, 02:55 AM
In terms of power balance, I solve it simply by: why should the human-ish (PC) races be any more powerful than anybody else? There are lots of adventurers in the campaign world, and if you raid a gnoll war camp, they are going to have a level 5 Shadowcaster, some level 3 rogues, whatever, depending on the party.

Talic
2008-01-09, 03:03 AM
Each of the MM critters can be effective, if used correctly.

First, there are few situations where you'll ever find them in an "open field". Scouting parties for these races are much smaller. If the group is that large, and in the open field, they're a war party. Which means they've got a chain of command. Give 2 of them 2 class levels, and one 3 class levels.

Next. Ranged attacks. Live them, love them, use them.

Third, fall back to the best ground available. If it's not, then go straight to fourth.

Fourth... Bum rush trip/grapple/overbear of doom. The first few chew off the attacks of opportunity, then the rest get into grapple. If 3 get into a grapple, have 2 using the Aid Another action for the third. Drag them to the ground, and tear them apart. There should be almost no PC casting once this plan enacts, if you get the grapple.

Conners
2008-01-09, 04:23 AM
One thing I would suggest is taking a look at the demographics chart in the DMG. Now, those charts are slanted for areas that are primarily human... but replace the 97% human line with "Goblin". If you've got 150 goblins in a "hamlet" (page 137), by the DMG, then you've got a chance of seeing a 6th level warrior in the mix, or a 4th level adept... and that's just assuming they have the same demographics as settled humanoids. I tried it. Here's what I ended up for my randomly rolled goblin tribe:

Population: 388 (goblins breed more though). GP limit: 100 (they probably collect more wealth from raiding, and keep more since they rarely trade with outsiders).
Ruling Power: Conventional (meaning it's ruled by the strongest).
Power Centre Alignment: Chaotic Neutral (the table, of course, is meant for humans who vary a lot).
Adjusted Power Centre Alignment: Neutral Evil.
Office Holder (Constable/Sheriff): Highest Level Warrior (3rd level). With goblins, this would be the chief's main enforcer.
Full-time Guards: 4 (rounded up).


Adjusted Power Centre Alignment Table:

1-40 Neutral Evil 83-87 Chaotic Neutral
41-60 True Neutral 88-92 Lawful Neutral
61-71 Chaotic Evil 93-96 Neutral Good
72-82 Lawful Evil 97-98 Chaotic Good
99-100 Lawful Good

Here's how I designed the table (note: This won't work for alignments other than neutral [alignment] or vice-versa):


Common alignment: 40%. 2nd most common: 20%. 3rd most common: 11%.
3rd most common: 11%. Least common: 5%. Least common: 5%.
Very uncommon: 4%. Incredibly uncommon: 2%. Incredibly uncommon: 2%.

Adept: One 3rd level, two 2nd level.
Aristocrat: None.
Barbarian: One 2nd level, two 1st level.
Bard: None.
Cleric: One 4th level, two 2nd level, four 1st level.
Commoner: One 10th level, two 5th level, four 3rd level.
Druid: One 4th level, two 2nd level, four 1st level.
Expert: One 9th level, two 5th level, four 2nd level.
Fighter: None.
Monk: None.
Paladin: One 1st level.
Ranger: One 1st level.
Sorcerer: None.
Warrior: One 3rd level, two 2nd level.
Wizard: One 1st level.

319 Commoners, 17 Warriors, 10 Experts, 1 Aristocrat, 1 Adept.


LOL! That Paladin is in for an interesting time :smallbiggrin:. Or is it a dark-variant paladin.... :smallconfused:?

Still, they intend that for a community of commoner non-warriors. Wouldn't the rules be a bit different for a community of warriors (since most every male adult goblin is a warrior)? Any ideas on how it should be revised?



In terms of power balance, I solve it simply by: why should the human-ish (PC) races be any more powerful than anybody else? There are lots of adventurers in the campaign world, and if you raid a gnoll war camp, they are going to have a level 5 Shadowcaster, some level 3 rogues, whatever, depending on the party. Heheh, I suggested that myself :smallbiggrin:. Now, however, I'm wondering how to make it random what level of hero a community has, but make it flexible enough so you can get the rare 15th level wizard, who rallies the army of X against the kingdom of Z.


Each of the MM critters can be effective, if used correctly.

First, there are few situations where you'll ever find them in an "open field". Scouting parties for these races are much smaller. If the group is that large, and in the open field, they're a war party. Which means they've got a chain of command. Give 2 of them 2 class levels, and one 3 class levels.

Next. Ranged attacks. Live them, love them, use them.

Third, fall back to the best ground available. If it's not, then go straight to fourth.

Fourth... Bum rush trip/grapple/overbear of doom. The first few chew off the attacks of opportunity, then the rest get into grapple. If 3 get into a grapple, have 2 using the Aid Another action for the third. Drag them to the ground, and tear them apart. There should be almost no PC casting once this plan enacts, if you get the grapple. Ooh, good idea! The problem with this: Monsters aren't often going to purposely risk an AoO against themself--unless they're unintelligent, are likely to somehow survive, or a fanatic.
I'll still be able to use this, though. Thanks :smallbiggrin:.