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Tren
2008-01-07, 11:12 PM
So a friend of mine was rolled a THF fighter for our new campaign, and had no clue as to what to select for feats. I told him about shock trooper leap attack but we've never made a character using these feats before and I just want to make sure I'm reading this right, particularly concerning leap attack. The text says "if you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack."

So if I'm reading that right, when he hits with his Leap Attack, instead of dealing the normal BAB x 2, leap attack allows him to instead deal BAB x 3?

Nebo_
2008-01-07, 11:23 PM
There is errata for leap attack. You deal +100% power attack damage for a 4:1 return. Be careful, though, leap attackers can quickly get out of hand.

Person_Man
2008-01-08, 12:15 AM
My group uses the 4:1 return as well. However, people argue about it all the time. Also, it seems very unbalancing at level 6ish. But once casters get 4th level spells, Shock Trooper + Leap Attack is pretty much required for a melee build to be useful.

Also, tell your friend to pick up a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes (and Hold the Line if he has the feats to spare). It will help protect him against counter attacks, since his AC will be garbage.

BlackMage2549
2008-01-08, 12:18 AM
Improved Buckler Defense(CW), I think it's called, will allow you to use a buckler with the 2H Weapon, at a -1 to all attack rolls. Combined with a Shield Specialization(PHB2) and a +X enchantment, it's a nice boost to AC with little drawback.

Quietus
2008-01-08, 12:53 AM
Improved Buckler Defense(CW), I think it's called, will allow you to use a buckler with the 2H Weapon, at a -1 to all attack rolls. Combined with a Shield Specialization(PHB2) and a +X enchantment, it's a nice boost to AC with little drawback.

Uhhh... you can do that without a feat.

Flawless
2008-01-08, 01:09 AM
Uhhh... you can do that without a feat.

Yeah, but when you attack, you lose ypur shield bonus to AC, so it's actually useful. But not really for a leap attacking shoch tropper. Your AC will be so low, even a +7 from a buckler won't help.

BlackMage2549
2008-01-08, 01:35 AM
Every little +7AC helps?

EDIT : What happens if you throw a few levels of ranger into the mix, with Favored Power Attack?

Varnithis
2008-01-08, 04:13 AM
EDIT : What happens if you throw a few levels of ranger into the mix, with Favored Power Attack?

Depending on the favored enemy, you spontaniously polymorph into a big chink of chedder. ((Can't spell >_<))

Just kidding, its not really any worse than what druids and wizards and clerics can start pulling off. The only real difference is a Shock Trooper build is generally used far more often than hyper caster cheese.

KoDT69
2008-01-08, 07:27 AM
There is errata for leap attack. You deal +100% power attack damage for a 4:1 return. Be careful, though, leap attackers can quickly get out of hand.

OK, maybe I'm not looking at this right, but the OP said Fighter, not Frenzied Berserker. By my calculations it should be (+100% 2H weapon & +100% Leap Attack for a total of PA x3. The Frenzied Berserker gains an additional +100% from Supreme Power Attack for the PA x4. Did I miss something? How is the Fighter getting x4?

Keld Denar
2008-01-08, 10:17 AM
Because of the way its worded (+100% instead of x2) the already 2:1 PA is increased by 100% to become 4:1. If Leap Attack said "double your PA bonus" then standard D&D multiplication would dictate that it would be 3:1 (x2 + x2 = x3). It is unclear if this poor wording was an oversight or intended.

Supreme Power Attack from FB gives 4:1 PA, so Leap Attack would make this 8:1. That is where you enter the realm of silly damage numbers. Add in a few other things like Battle Jump (UE) and/or a Valorous Weapon enhancement and you start breaking the damage curves to a rediculous level.

As to Imp Buckler Defense and whatnot....not worth it. Take Karmic Strike and Elusive Target. Karmic Strike will drop your AC by another 4 points, making your AC something like -5 (too bad its not 2nd Ed.) but give you a good number of counterattacks and Elusive Target makes it so your Karmic Strike buddy can't return the favor with a full PA back.

Saph
2008-01-08, 11:16 AM
I'm just curious: does anyone actually use the Leaping Power Attacking Shock Trooper build? I don't mean build it on a forum board, but actually play it in a long-running campaign?

Because every time I've seen one of these kind of hyper-specialised builds in play, they've turned out to be kind of pointless. Since an ubercharger build can kill pretty much anything that it hits with a charge attack, this means that to make any battle challenging, the DM has to set things up so that the ubercharger can't hit the main enemy. In which case, what's the point of having the ability at all?

It also strains relations with the other PCs. An all-or-nothing party member who either kills everything or is useless is a bit irritating to have around.

- Saph

Frosty
2008-01-08, 11:40 AM
Uber Chargers dont kill anything in one hit, at least not the non-cheesed ones. At level 6, you can deal 24 damage on the charge. Good, but not DEATH FROM ABOVE *splort* ridiculous. If you use Complete Champion you can do 48 damage, if you hit with the second hit.

And remember, you can't charge every round, because charging has limitations such as difficult terrain (unless you can jump over it reliably), people in the way (usually allies. An item can let you bypass this twice a day), and the fact that you need to move at least 10 feet.

Person_Man
2008-01-08, 11:47 AM
Uber Chargers dont kill anything in one hit, at least not the non-cheesed ones. At level 6, you can deal 24 damage on the charge. Good, but not DEATH FROM ABOVE *splort* ridiculous. If you use Complete Champion you can do 48 damage, if you hit with the second hit.

They deal 24 bonus damage per attack. So a human Barbarian 2/Fighter 4 would deal [base + (Str *1.5) + magic + 24] damage per attack. Various races with no LA add natural attacks (like Darfellen or the variant Kobold) which he can use as part of a full attack/pounce. Any Haste or Speed effect will also add another attack. TWF + Oversized TWF will add another. He can multiply the damage with Battle Jump or Headlong Rush. And a Scabbard of Keen Edges is cheap. So barring lousy rolls (which will certainly happen sometimes), you should be able to kill anything in one charge, though maybe not one hit.


Every little +7AC helps?

EDIT : What happens if you throw a few levels of ranger into the mix, with Favored Power Attack?

Don't bother with a buckler or buckler feats. Just use an animated shield.

RE: Favored Power Attack. As far as I know, you always calculate things from their base. *2 + *2 = *3. Not *4. A Maximized and Empowered Fireball cast by a 20th level Wizard would deal 60 + 5d6 damage, not 90 damage.

Leap Attack is 2:1 with a one handed weapon, or 4:1 with a two handed weapon.

Favored Power Attack gives you 2:1 with a one handed weapon, or 3:1 with a two handed weapon.

So used together, it'd be 3:1 with a one handed weapon, or 5:1 with a two handed weapon.

The same rules apply when using Supreme Power Attack (Frenzied Berserker class feature) with Leap Attack.


I'm just curious: does anyone actually use the Leaping Power Attacking Shock Trooper build? I don't mean build it on a forum board, but actually play it in a long-running campaign?

Because every time I've seen one of these kind of hyper-specialised builds in play, they've turned out to be kind of pointless. Since an ubercharger build can kill pretty much anything that it hits with a charge attack, this means that to make any battle challenging, the DM has to set things up so that the ubercharger can't hit the main enemy. In which case, what's the point of having the ability at all?

It also strains relations with the other PCs. An all-or-nothing party member who either kills everything or is useless is a bit irritating to have around.

- Saph

I've had a PC use a strait Fighter with Leap Attack/Shock Trooper in a long term campaign.

Sure, he could kill anything on a charge. But tons of things prevent charges. (I tend to use generous amounts of terrain - and my PCs knew this before they built their characters). And there are many concealment effects (fog, shadowy illumination, various magic or psionic effects). Or you could always just use mobs of enemies. So the PC still gets to use his charge combo in virtually every combat encounter, but he has to be smart about where he's standing on the battlefield and who he attacks, and even then he doesn't necessarily always auto-succeed.

The other PCs rarely resented him. If anything, the Fighter felt left behind once the full casters got access to mid level spells, and he was still doing the same boring charge combo over and over again.

Saph
2008-01-08, 12:08 PM
The other PCs rarely resented him. If anything, the Fighter felt left behind once the full casters got access to mid level spells, and he was still doing the same boring charge combo over and over again.

But that's exactly the problem. I'm not denying that casters are going to outclass a charger build in power. What I'm saying is that to get a really effective charger build, you have to dedicate so much of your feats and class levels to it that you can't really do very much else.

That's why I don't think uberchargers make good characters. The wizard whose Save-Or-Die effect is blocked by a monster's immunity can shrug and switch to his other spells - he's got 30 different ones memorised, it's not like he's useless, right? But the ubercharger who can't charge for some reason is useless, because charging is 90% of what his character does.

- Saph

Frosty
2008-01-08, 12:18 PM
that's why you build a WARBLADE-heavy build instead. 1 level of barbarian, 2 levels of fighter, and the rest in Warblade, and you can do ubercharging and still have very good maneuvers.