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SolkaTruesilver
2008-01-07, 11:15 PM
An idea is bugging me..

Do you know the classic movie/book-cliché: You are a standard man/boy/girl/woman from the 20th century (effectively "yourself"), which is, somewhat pulled into a vortex into the fantasy-world (Warhammer/Forgotten Realm/whatever).

Which allows for the player to effectively know about modern science/cultural reference, and be genuinely surprise by whatever they encounter in the fantasy world. Also, it can take into account that the player don't know whatever part of knowledge that would be, in theory, already known by "everyone in the world" (ex: Sigmar's pre-eminance in the Empire as a God).

Has anyone ever played that kind of "starting campaign"? Was it worth the bad taste? Was it bad taste? Any comments?

EvilElitest
2008-01-07, 11:21 PM
I did once, the new guy took over the world because he had studied history and used the diritiest trick ever picked up in real life
from
EE

Chronicled
2008-01-07, 11:22 PM
I did once, the new guy took over the world because he had studied history and used the diritiest trick ever picked up in real life
from
EE

There's a lot of things that come to mind when you say that. Which are you referring to?

VanBuren
2008-01-07, 11:27 PM
There's a lot of things that come to mind when you say that. Which are you referring to?

He left a guy in a ditch.


No, I'm just kidding. But I imagine the words Stalinesque or Machiavellian would be close to the idea.

Thanatos 51-50
2008-01-07, 11:28 PM
He made a Knowledge (History) check, of course!

EvilElitest
2008-01-07, 11:33 PM
There's a lot of things that come to mind when you say that. Which are you referring to?

Sorry, wanted to say tricks




No, I'm just kidding. But I imagine the words Stalinesque or Machiavellian would be close to the idea

well he used that, but also include

1. The industrial revolution was brought about
2. In some lands he brought about serfdom
3. Pervented communism
4. Imperialism
5. The "small pox blankets" that was used on my people (damn it)
6. Using spies to cause civil wars in other lands
7. Balence of power
8. A fake relegion that gave him a lot power
9. Greek Fire
10., the Trojen Horse
11. A sophiciated Slave trade
12. The printing press
13. the cotton gin
14. Propaganda in printed form
15. the worst traits of Captism
16. Modern revolution and terrorist tatics
17. D&D
18. A standard miltary
19. No more calvery
20. Gun powder
21. Chemistry
from,
EE

SurlySeraph
2008-01-07, 11:40 PM
I haven't played one like this, and I probably wouldn't. It's just too... I don't know. It would just feel kind of pathetic.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-01-07, 11:56 PM
I haven't played one like this, and I probably wouldn't. It's just too... I don't know. It would just feel kind of pathetic.

that's what I tought. But can you elaborate on what part feels pathetic?

(I mean, that makes something more original than "you meet in a tavern")

VanBuren
2008-01-08, 12:04 AM
that's what I tought. But can you elaborate on what part feels pathetic?

(I mean, that makes something more original than "you meet in a tavern")

But it also makes for less alcohol.

It's a double-edged sword.

FoE
2008-01-08, 12:08 AM
Well, the Urban Arcana campaign for D20 Modern is basically the reversal: fantasy creatures sucked into our modern 21st century world. So you have drow running nightclubs, ogres as hockey players, bugbears as mob hitmen, etc. etc.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-01-08, 12:10 AM
Sorry, wanted to say tricks





well he used that, but also include

1. The industrial revolution was brought about
2. In some lands he brought about serfdom
3. Pervented communism
4. Imperialism
5. The "small pox blankets" that was used on my people (damn it)
6. Using spies to cause civil wars in other lands
7. Balence of power
8. A fake relegion that gave him a lot power
9. Greek Fire
10., the Trojen Horse
11. A sophiciated Slave trade
12. The printing press
13. the cotton gin
14. Propaganda in printed form
15. the worst traits of Captism
16. Modern revolution and terrorist tatics
17. D&D
18. A standard miltary
19. No more calvery
20. Gun powder
21. Chemistry
from,
EE

Why did the DM ever allow this to happen? Not only is it impossible for anyone to have enough knowledge (go on, design a gun or an internal combustion engine. You even get the schematics for some reason. But wait, how are you going to machine the parts or get the right metallurgy or fuels in a medieval setting? Technology is incredibly interconnected.), but even if they had the combined library of every civilisation crammed into their head somehow, how are they going to implement it? If they have the influence to orchestrate broad social change, and no one's able to challenge them, the campaign's already beyond typical D&D.

For the topic in general, I sincerely doubt a random person from our time period, upon being swept into a magical medieval realm, would immediately think "I should go undertake dangerous adventures!". :smalltongue:

Xefas
2008-01-08, 12:23 AM
I seem to recall wanting to try out something like this before, but it all broke down during character creation when everyone was statting themself in D&D form.

"Hmmm...well, I'm nicer than most people, would a 16 Charisma be too high?"
"16? Try 6."
"Hey, alright, now, that's just plain wrong. I was in Speech class with the guy. So...I say 4."
"Hey hey hey! The DM gets the final call on this. So, how much Charisma do you think I have?"
Me: "Ummm...so, I've never seen Bladerunner before. Why don't we go watch that instead?"

And that's how I learned that replicates are people too.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-01-08, 12:25 AM
but even if they had the combined library of every civilisation crammed into their head somehow, how are they going to implement it? If they have the influence to orchestrate broad social change, and no one's able to challenge them, the campaign's already beyond typical D&D.

For the topic in general, I sincerely doubt a random person from our time period, upon being swept into a magical medieval realm, would immediately think "I should go undertake dangerous adventures!". :smalltongue:

It's not like I would give them the choice to NOT adventure. They are absolute aliens in this world, their can either try to make a living out of it (and I doubt peasantry appeal to them) or try to find a way out.

Also, I would allow them to *know* everything their know themselves. Plus, I was wondering (in the game of Warhammer Fantasy Role Play) allow them to take a career that actually make sense in the actual world - such as student, entertainer, rogue, barber-surgeon, scribe, servant, soldier (only gunpowder weapon talent allowed at first), thief, thug -.

The players are allowed some modern academic knowledge - impossible to improve over time, off course -, but if one of them is, let's say, a medical student, he would know a LOT more about anything medical in the fantasy world than most people - except magical diseases, off course. But luckily, in Warhammer, non-chaotic magical diseases are extremely rare (I just love low-magic setting)

I guess if you have the proper skills, they would be able to know how to make decent weaponry - theorically -, but I would have to ask them to actually fill the technological gap between modern and nothing with career like Engineers, or physicians. (so no 18th-century machineguns allowed until they actually understand the limitation of 16th-century sciences)

On the other hand, they could be actually freaking out if they ever see one of the Dwarf's steamtank.. hehe..

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-08, 01:09 AM
If I ever did a game like that, I would rule physics doesn't work the same way to prevent this kind of thing :P

Alternatively, I'd rule that people just wouldn't believe the things he says. Even when it makes no sense. But that's kind of my misanthropy striking again.

"What do you mean, this so called gunpowder of yours is *obviously* summoning thunder. Why do you persist in lying. I've heard about you, pretending to be a god when you're just a lying wizard. Here watch my brother the wizard do the same thing you just did"
*brother wizard does something totally different*
*crowd convinced*

Maybe have the character put in asylum equivalent because they all assume he's crazy with such talk of "all matter being composed of things too small to see" or "the earth isn't the center of the Universe" (of course it is! It's aligned neutrally!)


Though even better might be if everyone just takes to it totally fine. "This world of wizards and demons and gods that seem to get in the faces of mortals makes WAY more sense than our world!"

Or, for just pure random fun, take people from one fantasy world and put them in another. ("What kind of a name is Luke Skywalker for a Wizard?" "I told you, I'm a Jedi" "Look, you're not fooling me. You're wearing strange clothes and you have a big stick made of light that can cut through anything, and yet spills no blood? You're totally a wizard" "Want me to blast him into the sun with my Ki?" "No! Use your Ki to fill these Energon Cubes" "Is it just me Stephen Hawkings or is this world really stupid?" "I agree. I would shoot them all with my glock, but I ran out of bullets.")

Fiery Diamond
2008-01-08, 01:16 AM
Ow. That last post hurt my sensitivities.

-Fiery Diamond

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-08, 01:19 AM
Ow. That last post hurt my sensitivities.

-Fiery Diamond

Thanks. I try.

Swordguy
2008-01-08, 01:19 AM
You're right! A modern character going back in time and using his knowledge like that - what a horrid cliche! No REAL DM or writer would EVER use such a trope!

Not even Mark Twain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Connecticut_Yankee_in_King_Arthur's_Court)!

SoD
2008-01-08, 01:24 AM
Well, as much as this idea seems to have been knocked...I actually like it, and personally wouldn't mind playing it some time...only my stats would be so awful, I'd get killed straight away...

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-08, 01:27 AM
It's not so much that it's a dumb idea, but an overused one.

Also, my fantasy tends to be really out there. Not just lots of stuff with super powers but really deeply set into the land. Like, in order for the medicinal herb to work you have to ask it's permission.

To bring modern science into it kind of goes against the theme.

Talanic
2008-01-08, 01:28 AM
The problem isn't going back in time or to an archaic culture and having the knowledge, it's actually using it.

Sure, you know the basic structure of a gun and the formula for gunpowder. Now try explaining to a 10th-century apothecary what you want and talking a blacksmith into making the frame. Hope they do it right, or your gun will VERY likely blow up in your face. Steam engines are even more fickle and likely to kill you in the process of inventing a reliable one.

And that's just the process of making one item. Remember, in those times there are no factories; no way to mass-produce items, and no trade lines set up to cart around the materials needed for those nifty technological devices to be made from. There's a reason that advancement took so long the first time around, and it's not because people were stupid back then; they simply didn't have the stuff they needed to actually make the things they were thinking up.

Rutee
2008-01-08, 01:36 AM
Exactly. I know a large RP set in China where people have tried to invent muskets based on the fact that they have fireworks. Doesn't work; None of the underlying tech is around. I'm pretty sure they don't even have access to Saltpeter..

Mind, it's realistic, but it's not /interesting/, so, hm! I'm not sure I'd allow it unless everyone was cool with it, but I know the people I interact with, so I probably would. Nobody's going into a WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THIS WAY rant on the subject. At my table, anyway.

Yami
2008-01-08, 02:09 AM
Windmills do to give you EXP when you defeat them! you must have missed, tilt again!

Nerd-o-rama
2008-01-08, 02:43 AM
You're right! A modern character going back in time and using his knowledge like that - what a horrid cliche! No REAL DM or writer would EVER use such a trope!

Not even Mark Twain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Connecticut_Yankee_in_King_Arthur's_Court)!
That was 120 years ago. Fantasy novels hadn't been invented yet, and time travel just barely.

Anyway, I don't like this plotline. No matter how much or little it's actually done, it always feels trite. Maybe because so many poorer authors than Mark Twain have done it to make their modern characters total Mary Sues (Twain's suffers rather enough, I think.) Still, Erfworld's done it okay, and re-watching the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon, it's actually pretty good, so maybe it's not always a write-off.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-08, 04:54 AM
re-watching the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon, it's actually pretty good, so maybe it's not always a write-off.

Gak! Argh! Noooooo!

Well. I've read some interesting stories about the subject (e.g. Pastwatch, by Orson Scott Card, is really good) but have never even heard of someone doing this in an RPG campaign, so I'm kind of surprised this is actually a cliche.

Still, it's going to be way less impressive in a world where magic is real. If you were thrown into earth's past, you could pretend to be a wizard, wow the locals, and get burned by the inquisition. But in a world that has actual wizards, well, good luck impressing anyone.

Besides, given they have magic, what makes you think they even need technology?

malagigi
2008-01-08, 06:06 AM
Eh, having paged through the US Army's improvised field munitions handbook, I could probably make black powder. I never tried, but the steps are there to do it in a setting with little or no resources (though at the moment I can't remember how to get sulfur exactly, then again sulfur and saltpeter has 'negligible cost').
After that - a mass producible cannon unbalances the entire game. Walled fortifications are obsolete in a matter of years, not decades. Can a wish spell change the nature of chemistry?

For this reason I explicitly state a 'better living through alchemy' clause, negating the usage of chemistry in my fantasy games. :smallwink:


A friend of mine did play a game where he played himself in a super hero setting. That was one of his favorite games, as he played himself with superpowers. No one got to stat themselves. Each person left the room when they were stated up as 'normal'. Their superpowers manifested on Jan 1, 2000 when they saved DC from terrorists aiming to create panic on Y2K.

F.L.
2008-01-08, 07:20 AM
To get sulphur, you must first find a volcano...

From sulphur, you can use an alembic to cook up some sulphuric acid anyway, and that's far more fun. Sulphuric acid plus sal petra = nitric acid. Nitric acid plus cellulose (cotton) = nitrocellulose. Nitrocellulose = guncotton. Alternately, sal petra can be extracted from bat or bird guano. Note: distillation steps have been skipped for clarity.

Kaerou
2008-01-08, 07:30 AM
Why did the DM let that guy get away with all that?

As was stated the guy may know ABOUT these things, but that doesnt mean he can DO them. It sounds kind of contrieved and stupid to me, as a Historian myself. I may know about these things, but

I cant build a gun from scratch
I cant smelt metal
I cannot create the machines that brought about the industrial revolution, let alone sketch the blueprints
I cannot make greek fire.. nobody can.. The formula is still a secret to this day!
I cannot sway the messes of people from a different era/time/race in this case as a stranger who talks funny and dresses differently and comes from a far off land who probably speaks a different language / dialect, even if they speak English.
And I cannot create sweeping socio-economic changes that typically take hundreds of years.

But hey, he knows about it thats 'good enough' right? >.>

Swordguy
2008-01-08, 08:17 AM
But hey, he knows about it thats 'good enough' right? >.>

Of course, simply introducing the concept is the tough part, since it's coming from a completely different background.

And what's the problem with this? If it's an avatar game, and the PC knows what the player knows, have him describe, in detail, the process for what he needs. Black powder is the common example, so that's what I'll see if I can describe.

The mix for black powder is 75 parts potassium nitrate, 15 parts charcoal and 10 parts sulfur, all proportional by weight. Charcoal and sulfur are easy to find (even in a pre-industrial society, sulfur was used for a great many things). The trick is making the potassium nitrate.

How to make potassium nitrate with pre-industrial materials:

-3.5 gallons of nitrate bearing earth or other material - this is found most often in forests or in things like swamps, basically in places where lots of dead stuff can leach into the soil.
-1/2 cup of wood ashes
-Bucket or other similar container about 4-5 gallons in volume
-2 pieces of finely woven cloth, each a bit bigger than the
bottom of the bucket
-Shallow dish or pan at least as large in diameter as the bucket
-Shallow, heat resistant container
-2 gallons of water
-Something to punch holes in the bottom of the bucket
-1 gallon of any type of alcohol
-A heat source
-Paper & tape (and yes, there is pre-industrial tape; it's made from birch strips and glue)

Procedure:
- Punch holes on the inside bottom of the bucket, so that the
metal is"puckered" outward from the bottom
- Spread cloth over the holes from the bottom
- Place wood ashes on the cloth. Spread it out so that it covers
the entire cloth and has about the same thickness.
- Place 2nd cloth on top of the wood ashes
- Place the dirt or other material in the bucket
- Place the bucket over the shallow container. NOTE: It may need
support on the bottom so that the holes on the bottom are not
blocked.
- Boil water and pour it over the earth very slowly. Do NOT pour
it all at once, as this will clog the filter on the bottom.
- Allow water to run through holes into the shallow dish on the
bottom.
- Be sure that the water goes through ALL of the earth!
- Allow water in dish to cool for an hour or so
- Carefully drain the liquid in the dish away, and discard the
sludge in the bottom
- Boil this liquid over a fire for at least two hours. Small
grains of salt will form - scoop these out with the paper as they
form
- When the liquid has boiled down to 1/2 its original volume let
it sit
- After abuot 1/2 hour, add equal volume of the alcohol; when this
mixture is poured through paper, small white crystals appear. This
is the posassium nitrate.

Purification:
- Redissolve crystals in small amount of boiling water
- Remove any crystals that appear
- Pour through improvised filter then heat concentrated solution
to dryness.
- Spread out crystals and allow to dry


Now, once you have all your materials together, you need a mill of some kind. Ball mills are best, but they tend to generate a lot of static, so I'd go in this case with a simple water-powered mill, grinding my mixture instead of flour.

Making the Black Powder:

1. Take your raw charcoal and crush it with a hammer between two sheets of paper. Sieve the charcoal through a coarse sieve (about 30 mesh).

2. Weigh the charcoal. To every 100 grams of charcoal, add 66 grams of sulfur, and fill 1/4th of your millstone with this mixture. Put the media in and let the mill run for about 3 hours.

3. When you open your mill, you should find an incredibly fine black/greyish powder. Sieve this to get the media of the mill out, and weigh it. In a separate container, place 75 grams of potassium nitrate for every 25 grams of charcoal/sulfur powder you have. Put the potassium nitrate in your millstone, and mill it for 3 hours. You send up with a very fine white/greyish powder.

4. Now mix the charcoal/sulfur mix with the potassium nitrate. Don't bother to mix it very thoroughly, since that will happen in the mill soon enough. To this mixture, add 6% of water. Make sure it all gets wet - for accident prevention. Put the wet powder in your mill and let it run for 5 hours. Every hour or so, check to see if the powder is still wet. If it dries out the risk of accidential ignition greatly increases. Duh.

5. Sieve the powder to get the media out, spread it out on a large sheet of paper and let it dry. If possible in the sun. Needless to say you shouldn't heat it in order to dry it more quickly, just be patient.

6. When dry, sieve the black powder through a few sieves to get several fractions for different purposes. Fine-grain powder is for locks on firearms, or fuses, while coarser grains can go for projectiles, and the coarsest stuff is earmarked from wrapped explosives.


So, in conclusion, if a person can explain that to me, off the top of their head like I just did, they get to make black powder in a pre-industrial avatar RP setting. Nothing less should suffice.

malagigi
2008-01-08, 08:29 AM
Charcoal and sulfur are easy to find (even in a pre-industrial society, sulfur was used for a great many things). The trick is making the potassium nitrate.

Help me out here. Supposing you don't have anything to trade with, and you need to get sulfur from somewhere. Where do you get it? What do you have to steal? Today I'd get some matches if nothing else, but in a pre-industrial setting, where does the sulfur come from? It must occur somewhere besides volcanos. France was making its own gunpowder durring the Napolionic wars durring blockade, and France isn't exactly rife with volcanos.

shaggz076
2008-01-08, 08:42 AM
I had a friend who decided to try something similar where we would look at each other and mutually determine what our own stats would be in a D&D type relation. We figured out what skills we would possess. He started the game in a modern time where we were going out to a party in the woods. He asked us what type of stuff we would have with us and what were we wearing. During the time he tried to run this game I had a Stainless Steel Chainmail vest that I would wear out to the clubs and parties. It was a real conversation starter. Well he had a storm start up and develop into a big black tornado so the first thing I thought of was to anchor myself to something big and heavy. I dug ou some of the rocks under a train rail and hooked my arm around it. When we all got sucked into the vortex, the rail came with me. Once we figured out we were in a D&D setting I dragged the piece of rail to the nearest blacksmith. I had him forge a sword for me out of the rail and gave him the rest in payment. I think I was the only person at the time with a Long sword and chain shirt armor. Due to previous experience I have some proficiency swinging a sword so I ended up being the main fighter for the party for a time. This all happened during 2nd edition so the rules are a little different.

Swordguy
2008-01-08, 08:44 AM
Help me out here. Supposing you don't have anything to trade with, and you need to get sulfur from somewhere. Where do you get it? What do you have to steal? Today I'd get some matches if nothing else, but in a pre-industrial setting, where does the sulfur come from? It must occur somewhere besides volcanos. France was making its own gunpowder durring the Napolionic wars durring blockade, and France isn't exactly rife with volcanos.

Well, I'm assuming you aren't in a world where "The ubar Magik TWFBBQPWNS everything LOL!!11one!" so there's some basic trade and a point to having non-magical skills. Sulfur has been used for thousands of years as a antiseptic agent. People went way out of their way to get it. Therefore, it's completely within reason for a local apothecary to be carrying it, regardless of how far away volcanoes may be. In fact, judging by how often it seems to be used in alchemical substances in D&D (it sure SOUNDS like a Thunderstick or Sunrod would use sulfur, and it's listed under magical components as having "no price", which means it's stupid common) I'd say it's completely unreasonable of the DM NOT to have sulfur available in some quantity at anyplace big enough to have an apothecary or an alchemist that isn't horribly disconnected from the rest of society (town on a cloud, surrounded by water, under siege, etc).

The French, for example, imported theirs from Italy, Africa, and the Urals, even while at war with those countries. Since the production of sulfur wasn't nationalized, no nation could take over the production without losing their other sources of the element as other folks would stop importing it. Trade goes on, even in the midst of war.

Oh, and if you don't have cash or trade good, rob the apothecary or alchemist. They'll have it in close to bulk (pounds of it are a good start).

Zenos
2008-01-08, 08:49 AM
It's not like I would give them the choice to NOT adventure. They are absolute aliens in this world, their can either try to make a living out of it (and I doubt peasantry appeal to them) or try to find a way out.

Also, I would allow them to *know* everything their know themselves. Plus, I was wondering (in the game of Warhammer Fantasy Role Play) allow them to take a career that actually make sense in the actual world - such as student, entertainer, rogue, barber-surgeon, scribe, servant, soldier (only gunpowder weapon talent allowed at first), thief, thug -.

The players are allowed some modern academic knowledge - impossible to improve over time, off course -, but if one of them is, let's say, a medical student, he would know a LOT more about anything medical in the fantasy world than most people - except magical diseases, off course. But luckily, in Warhammer, non-chaotic magical diseases are extremely rare (I just love low-magic setting)

I guess if you have the proper skills, they would be able to know how to make decent weaponry - theorically -, but I would have to ask them to actually fill the technological gap between modern and nothing with career like Engineers, or physicians. (so no 18th-century machineguns allowed until they actually understand the limitation of 16th-century sciences)

On the other hand, they could be actually freaking out if they ever see one of the Dwarf's steamtank.. hehe..

Ain't it the Empire's steam tanks?

BlackandGold
2008-01-08, 09:10 AM
I've thought about this problem long ago the first time. I think, I've solved it theoretically, together with my father, who happens to be an ex-student of classical philology (latin and greek) and knows something about the mindset of this people.

Problems, which should be addressed:
- Medical Problems We have diseases, which are not known. On the other Side deadly Diseases exist, which we don't even know.
- Language Problems. Really simple, right? Most modern People have Problems with a Language of the same kind, but another kind? Even the ancestors of our modern Languages will be very difficult! Believe me, I couldn't read one sentence from the Nibelungenlied, 12th century England or France would be much more difficult. Don't get me started on Semitic or Asian Languages.
- Religious or philosophical Taboos. That would also be quite a problem, but the easiest. Explanation later.

If you can solve the first problem and survived the third till you've solved the second, then you can do the following things, depending on an fairly open and money-orientated society (Rome after Augustus or Greece, maybe even Persia):
- Approach some local Potentate or local Scientists/Philosophs
- Begin to show them the possibilities of your knowledge. Even if you can't build a better weapon, the most people which are still alive (and so demonstrated to be fairly intelligent and having a flexible Mind), will happen to know the general direction of Research
- Let the most intelligent People of this Era work on the problem. Most of scientific Research before the modern scientific thinking is "Trial and Error", because nobody knows what the most useful way to research something will be. But if you know that steam has a useful purpose, then look and marvel, what someone like Heron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria) will do with your Idea

My Father and I agree, that most modern People could bring a society to the technical standard of their grandparents. If you have a special interest in some topic (like being engineer or physician), you could bring them even further.

But the most important Thing will be the mindset of the modern Scientist. That an experiment always can proof something, even if the majority doesn't believe it.
Example (It seems to be inherently wrong, but it was absolutely normal for the time): Galileo made his experiment with the two different balls from the Leaning Tower of Pisa. Some Observants, all intelligent an educated people, only had the following comment: "I don't believe it."
Only when the modern rational Thinking came, this changed.


All said, I really wouldn't play myself. I'm studying physics/chemistry for teaching, so I might be imbalanced for this stuff, but mostly it would me strike as pathetic/not possible. One Time we tried something like that for the WoD Game "Hunter", but after ten Minutes, we altered the evening plans.
But to play an D20-Modern-Character and put him in this scenario is at least a little interesting... But mostly it would be political play and not "Dungeoneering". And in some Fantasy-Worlds you should be really watchful for the magic assassins.

Notable Media:
Outcast (PC-Game)
Lost Regiment (William Forstchen): Civil War Tech in an medieval setting
Seventh Sword (http://www.daveduncan.com/ss/index.html) (Dave Duncan): Modern Petrochemist in a fantasyworld, very good
Timeline (Michael Crichton)
And a series of books, where a group of RPG-Friends are transported in their gaming world

EvilElitest
2008-01-08, 10:14 AM
Why did the DM ever allow this to happen? Not only is it impossible for anyone to have enough knowledge (go on, design a gun or an internal combustion engine. You even get the schematics for some reason. But wait, how are you going to machine the parts or get the right metallurgy or fuels in a medieval setting? Technology is incredibly interconnected.), but even if they had the combined library of every civilisation crammed into their head somehow, how are they going to implement it? If they have the influence to orchestrate broad social change, and no one's able to challenge them, the campaign's already beyond typical D&D.

well when ever the character went to sleep he work up in our world (i've seen that before) and the three real worlders simple oriented their schedule and then use real world knowledge (low magic world and real world). The main guy is who i described, but their was one chemist and one political student (Me). My job was basically forming an advanced slave trade, first we came to the king and use an I-pod to our advantage and a lab top that played movies (we ran out of battery after a while, but only after showing a lot of movies. Lucky for use, the I-pod we used didn't have many songs but a lot of historical recorded pod casts (or something, it wasn't mine) concerning all of the systems we eventually used in detail, as well as a lot of random facts about chemistry and the Slave Trade.

We did have a lot of challenge, we just used our modern knowledge to our advantage


For the topic in general, I sincerely doubt a random person from our time period, upon being swept into a magical medieval realm, would immediately think "I should go undertake dangerous adventures!". :smalltongue:

We didn't, though i think our DM wanted us to. What we said was

"Sweet, a D&D world of which we have detailed knowledge and the abilty to take over. Hooray"
from
EE

Neek
2008-01-08, 12:17 PM
-3.5 gallons of nitrate bearing earth or other material - this is found most often in forests or in things like swamps, basically in places where lots of dead stuff can leach into the soil.
-1/2 cup of wood ashes
-Bucket or other similar container about 4-5 gallons in volume
-2 pieces of finely woven cloth, each a bit bigger than the
bottom of the bucket
-Shallow dish or pan at least as large in diameter as the bucket
-Shallow, heat resistant container
-2 gallons of water
-Something to punch holes in the bottom of the bucket
-1 gallon of any type of alcohol
-A heat source
-Paper & tape (and yes, there is pre-industrial tape; it's made from birch strips and glue)

Procedure:
- Punch holes on the inside bottom of the bucket, so that the
metal is"puckered" outward from the bottom
- Spread cloth over the holes from the bottom
- Place wood ashes on the cloth. Spread it out so that it covers
the entire cloth and has about the same thickness.
- Place 2nd cloth on top of the wood ashes
- Place the dirt or other material in the bucket
- Place the bucket over the shallow container. NOTE: It may need
support on the bottom so that the holes on the bottom are not
blocked.
- Boil water and pour it over the earth very slowly. Do NOT pour
it all at once, as this will clog the filter on the bottom.
- Allow water to run through holes into the shallow dish on the
bottom.
- Be sure that the water goes through ALL of the earth!
- Allow water in dish to cool for an hour or so
- Carefully drain the liquid in the dish away, and discard the
sludge in the bottom
- Boil this liquid over a fire for at least two hours. Small
grains of salt will form - scoop these out with the paper as they
form
- When the liquid has boiled down to 1/2 its original volume let
it sit
- After abuot 1/2 hour, add equal volume of the alcohol; when this
mixture is poured through paper, small white crystals appear. This
is the posassium nitrate.

Purification:
- Redissolve crystals in small amount of boiling water
- Remove any crystals that appear
- Pour through improvised filter then heat concentrated solution
to dryness.
- Spread out crystals and allow to dry


Even easier, rather than using soil that contains nitrates, scrape the nitric acid crystals that form in chamberpots and break it down from there.


Now, once you have all your materials together, you need a mill of some kind. Ball mills are best, but they tend to generate a lot of static, so I'd go in this case with a simple water-powered mill, grinding my mixture instead of flour.

Making the Black Powder:

1. Take your raw charcoal and crush it with a hammer between two sheets of paper. Sieve the charcoal through a coarse sieve (about 30 mesh).

2. Weigh the charcoal. To every 100 grams of charcoal, add 66 grams of sulfur, and fill 1/4th of your millstone with this mixture. Put the media in and let the mill run for about 3 hours.

3. When you open your mill, you should find an incredibly fine black/greyish powder. Sieve this to get the media of the mill out, and weigh it. In a separate container, place 75 grams of potassium nitrate for every 25 grams of charcoal/sulfur powder you have. Put the potassium nitrate in your millstone, and mill it for 3 hours. You send up with a very fine white/greyish powder.

4. Now mix the charcoal/sulfur mix with the potassium nitrate. Don't bother to mix it very thoroughly, since that will happen in the mill soon enough. To this mixture, add 6% of water. Make sure it all gets wet - for accident prevention. Put the wet powder in your mill and let it run for 5 hours. Every hour or so, check to see if the powder is still wet. If it dries out the risk of accidential ignition greatly increases. Duh.

5. Sieve the powder to get the media out, spread it out on a large sheet of paper and let it dry. If possible in the sun. Needless to say you shouldn't heat it in order to dry it more quickly, just be patient.

6. When dry, sieve the black powder through a few sieves to get several fractions for different purposes. Fine-grain powder is for locks on firearms, or fuses, while coarser grains can go for projectiles, and the coarsest stuff is earmarked from wrapped explosives.


Step 2 is nice, seeing as you're corning the powder. What you're ultimately doing is picking up the sulphur with the water, which deposits it in the coal pits; this increases the lifespan of blackpowder (if uncorned blackpowder gets wet, it's useless. If you corn it, you can let it try.) For simplicity, you can also pay an untrained laborer (after halking your iPod loaded with awesome music, but only 1/2 battery life) to mix it in a bowl. This'd reduce the dependency, and why you're retrofitting a mill necessary to mill grain for something other than intended.

To expand, I can make nitroglycerin (poorly, but nonetheless): When making soap, after separating the tallow from the fat in boiling water, separate it and cool it. Add lye (a common item in skinning); scrape the top layer out, add nitric acid (which again, can be garnered from the soil or urine crystals), add slowly in an ice bath. Add sawdust to bind it and stabilize it.

The actual parts and ratios I don't know, but that wouldn't be too hard to figure out.


Problems, which should be addressed:
- Medical Problems We have diseases, which are not known. On the other Side deadly Diseases exist, which we don't even know.

We've already been vaccinated for some fun diseases (small pox, for instance); I'd be more worried about the plague, anyhow. I doubt we have anything fun to offer.


- Language Problems. Really simple, right? Most modern People have Problems with a Language of the same kind, but another kind? Even the ancestors of our modern Languages will be very difficult! Believe me, I couldn't read one sentence from the Nibelungenlied, 12th century England or France would be much more difficult. Don't get me started on Semitic or Asian Languages.

You'd learn the language within 2 weeks, no matter which time period you were dropped in, no matter which place it was. Fact is, all languages pose a level of difficulty (modern languages are no easier to learn than ancient ones). People have problems learning languages because they're learning without a need to use it for survival, but out of a hobby. If it isn't crucial to survival, and you're the only one speaking a language... you learn.

- Religious or philosophical Taboos. That would also be quite a problem, but the easiest. Explanation later.

[quote[- Let the most intelligent People of this Era work on the problem. Most of scientific Research before the modern scientific thinking is "Trial and Error", because nobody knows what the most useful way to research something will be. But if you know that steam has a useful purpose, then look and marvel, what someone like Heron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria) will do with your Idea[/quote]

"Trial and error" is still a way of problem solving. The difference now is that we have a set method of determining trial and error when we're dealing with a concept rather than we're dealing with the actual mechanics.

(To give you some backstory, I am still a philologist, studying the good Romans and the good Greeks--and I'm only commenting, not disputing, the points you and your father have made). If I was dropped in any time period, it would either be Rome or Greece. They're more open minded to unusual strangers (especially Rome). Medieval Europe would be less so. Pre-conquest central america, too, since we'd be so alien to them, we might be revered (until they learned better, bested us in combat, and sacrificed us...)

hewhosaysfish
2008-01-08, 12:22 PM
To expand, I can make nitroglycerin (poorly, but nonetheless): When making soap, after separating the tallow from the fat in boiling water, separate it and cool it. Add lye (a common item in skinning); scrape the top layer out, add nitric acid (which again, can be garnered from the soil or urine crystals), add slowly in an ice bath. Add sawdust to bind it and stabilize it.

The actual parts and ratios I don't know, but that wouldn't be too hard to figure out.

Trial and error? In the making of explosives? Sounds like fun.

Worira
2008-01-08, 12:25 PM
You could just ask the gnomes for some of their gunpowder.

EvilElitest
2008-01-08, 12:33 PM
Trial and error? In the making of explosives? Sounds like fun.

Hey, my group's solution

King- I need these explosives for my war against the elves
Chemist- I shall need my own lab, all the materials delivered to me, a fund of 500,000 gold pieces to support my research, a large enclosed field for testing, and two months time
King- 500,000, how can i support this? I mean workers along cost a to much
Me- Use slaves
King- Eh?
Me- (explains the slave trade)
King- Very well
from
EE

Leadfeathermcc
2008-01-08, 12:57 PM
Guardians of the Flame (http://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Dragon-Guardians-Flame/dp/0451453506/ref=pd_bbs_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199814492&sr=8-5) did it right.

Indon
2008-01-08, 01:31 PM
(go on, design a gun or an internal combustion engine. You even get the schematics for some reason. But wait, how are you going to machine the parts or get the right metallurgy or fuels in a medieval setting? Technology is incredibly interconnected.),

This is why I think such a setting would be interesting.

My players: We make a gun!
Me: With cold iron, crude black powder, and rocks as ammunition?
Player 1 (to other players): Anyone know how to make steel?
Player 2: We should use lead.
Player 3: I think bullets use brass casings, but I don't know how they work...
Player 4: We're going to need to build an oven or kiln or something to work metal with.

Rutee
2008-01-08, 06:36 PM
Hey, my group's solution

King- I need these explosives for my war against the elves
Chemist- I shall need my own lab, all the materials delivered to me, a fund of 500,000 gold pieces to support my research, a large enclosed field for testing, and two months time
King- 500,000, how can i support this? I mean workers along cost a to much
Me- Use slaves
King- Eh?
Me- (explains the slave trade)
King- Very well
from
EE
Why are you still defending yourself in terms of realism? This has already been debunked from a realistic standpoint (Less that it is technically impossible, more that they've listed impracticalities that make it functionally impossible). Doesn't make it less fun, or narratively interesting, of course, and it's not like any /other/ campaign is really based on realism.. but there's no 'realistic' defense.

Riffington
2008-01-08, 08:39 PM
Incidentally, it is easy to make gunpowder. This is great if you want weapons of power comparable to crossbows.

The trouble with making decent guns is tolerances. The pieces have to fit together just so, which means they have to be the exact right size within a very small tolerance.
If you could bring back an encyclopedia of gunsmithing to 1300, the longbow would still be a superior weapon to anything you could get produced.

Obviously, things are different if it's D&D and you have gnomes capable of producing a DC 30 lock.

BloodyAngel
2008-01-08, 08:42 PM
I don't know if i would call it the MOST cliche plot ever. In fact... once... for the hell of it... I ran a massive game of DOOM for a group of players that I had played with for years. The plot was that some force had torn down the barrier between the 42 quintillion material planes, and that all of reality was at risk. The players each played themselves, and were granted some nifty weapons and powers by the diety-type-thing that was trying to restore creation. Their goal was to find objects of reality-altering power that were scattered amongst the various material planes.

The catch? The various planes that they went to were (mostly) the settings of various games that I'd run. And in many a case, they encountered old characters of theirs, or old npc's and villains that they knew. My personal favorite was the one where they had to ally with the VILLAIN of an old campaign, in order to steal the object from their former PC's. They did a lot of genre-hopping... and it played like Sliders with extra nostalgia. It was a fun game, all in all. Not bad for something I ran back in high school.

I've "ported" myself into several RPG's, and I find it a lot of fun. Heroic actions seem that much more amazing when my scrawny butt is performing them... rather than Gragnor, the unmerciful... the mighty half-orc barbarian lord of the seven peaks!

F.L.
2008-01-08, 09:50 PM
Ah, another source of sulphur (that's very hard to get) is to set up a high heat furnace and start melting some iron pyrite (fools gold). From there, you either oxidize the iron to swap out the sulphur in the pyrite for oxygen, or you reduce the iron to drive out the sulphur. Either way you're looking at the requirement of a very hot flame, and possibly the invention of a blast furnace while you're at it.

EvilElitest
2008-01-08, 09:53 PM
Why are you still defending yourself in terms of realism? This has already been debunked from a realistic standpoint (Less that it is technically impossible, more that they've listed impracticalities that make it functionally impossible). Doesn't make it less fun, or narratively interesting, of course, and it's not like any /other/ campaign is really based on realism.. but there's no 'realistic' defense.

but it it is close enough to realism to work for me
from
EE

Yahzi
2008-01-08, 10:25 PM
1. The industrial revolution was brought about
It's harder than it sounds.


2. In some lands he brought about serfdom
Nothing new.


3. Pervented communism
Um... what?


4. Imperialism
5. The "small pox blankets" that was used on my people (damn it)
6. Using spies to cause civil wars in other lands
7. Balence of power
8. A fake relegion that gave him a lot power
9. Greek Fire
10., the Trojen Horse
11. A sophiciated Slave trade

Nothing new here, either.


12. The printing press
14. Propaganda in printed form

Not all that much help without a literate public.


13. the cotton gin
Not all that valuable without cotton.


15. the worst traits of Captism
16. Modern revolution and terrorist tatics
17. D&D
18. A standard miltary
19. No more calvery

Nothing new here, either.


20. Gun powder
21. Chemistry
These are perhaps the only two inventions that actually matter.

Collin152
2008-01-08, 10:37 PM
An abundance of things in written form lead people to literacy.
Plus, all citizens are literate. Only soem barbarians are illiterate, while most peasents are commoners.

Jothki
2008-01-08, 11:35 PM
Creating a computer in a fantasy world would probably be relatively simple compared to recreating technology, you'd just need to slap together a bunch of individually trivial divination spells.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-01-09, 12:53 AM
Ah good, I was looking for a thread like this: The classic "why can't I invent dynamite" D&D problem.

Essay within:
For chemistry, the main problem will be purity. In a non-magic world, it will be very difficult to get many chemicals at the purity levels you need to make advanced modern compounds (particularly medicines). Basic stuff, like gunpowder, is relatively easy to make, but more difficult to use.

Why? It's because modern metallurgy requires sophisticated furnaces. Steel-producing furnaces must get very hot, and must not melt when they get that hot. This requires a sophisticated industrial set-up to start with, and a lot of foundational technologies to get off the ground.

Now, even if you were ported back with the entire MIT mechanical engineering library (and associate staff & students) it would be very slow work to even make cart-moving steam engines. You need a high concentration of people, talent, and resources to start up an Industrial Revolution, and it will take time to set that up with only your own hands and brains to work with.

Now, onto history/political science.

Knowing history is only good for you if you go back in time, thus having exact knowledge of certain upcoming events - and that knowledge will become less useful as soon as you manage to change history. Changing history is not, by the way, so easy with only your say-so: you need to get into a position where you can affect events, or even just benefit from your own knowledge. As a serf (or worse) in strongly hierarchical societies, this is no mean feat.

But knowing history and being placed into a "less advanced" but unrelated world is extremely useless. This is because the so-called "revolutionary ideas" which you are trying to use (Fascism, germ warfare, etc.) do not work in a vacuum.

Tactics, like germ warfare, had been used on-and-off by clever warlords throughout the ages. Genghis Khan is considered the first, by the way, because he launched corpses into besieged cities, starting plagues that quickly broke the siege. Yes, if you end up leading an army, this tactics might help you out a little, but you will not likely have the charisma, killer instinct, or other attendant characteristics needed to actually lead men.

Other revolutionary ideas only work once the conditions for them are right. Trying to start a Fascist State in some random peasant village isn't going to work, because the peasants have no idea what a "State" is, why they should follow it, rather than the local warlord, nor why they should fight and die as you command for this "State" you talk about. Same deal with false religions and so on - you need a population ripe for the idea, and the charisma, drive, etc. to pull it off.

This is the major fallacy of the "future schmo in the past" scenario: ideas are not enough to change the world. Charisma, Power, and other external factors must all be present to take advantage of any of this future knowledge, even if you were fortunate to have genius-level understanding of whatever you are trying to do.

...and that is why the "average guy in medieval times" would not work in a game (which tried to maintain some realism) though it is an amusing Trope for satirical purposes.

If you do want to do this, try statting out famous historical figures and having them dropped in the medieval past. It's a fun way to play out the "Great Man" theory of history and it is a bit more believable.

My favorite: Thomas Edison v. Otto von Bismark :smallbiggrin:

SolkaTruesilver
2008-01-09, 12:59 AM
...and that is why the "average guy in medieval times" would not work in a game (which tried to maintain some realism) though it is an amusing Trope for satirical purposes.

If you do want to do this, try statting out famous historical figures and having them dropped in the medieval past. It's a fun way to play out the "Great Man" theory of history and it is a bit more believable.

My favorite: Thomas Edison v. Otto von Bismark :smallbiggrin:

I do not want the players to actually import a lot of modern techs (or even 18th century techs) into a fantasy world.

I just want the players to really feel their character (not forcely based directly on themselves), rather than having to remember things that are common-knowledge in a fantasy world. Come on, you grew up in Aldorft, and you don't remember who's the Emperor?????

Oracle_Hunter
2008-01-09, 01:10 AM
I do not want the players to actually import a lot of modern techs (or even 18th century techs) into a fantasy world.

I just want the players to really feel their character (not forcely based directly on themselves), rather than having to remember things that are common-knowledge in a fantasy world. Come on, you grew up in Aldorft, and you don't remember who's the Emperor?????

Well... that has the problem, mentioned before, of them being really poorly adapted to the setting. This can be problematic because such settings are really dangerous, and it's no fun walking from encounter to encounter with no flippin' clue as to what is going on.

If you want to do the whole "stranger in a strange land" thing, better to have them be caught by slavers and brought to a distant and foreign city where they have to learn the ropes from the ground up. This is better because the characters will have all kinds of medieval-style survival skills, while still allowing them to experience alienation and wonder.

Now, if it's a question of the players not "feeling" the characters, I'd recommend having them write up a paragraph where they describe their personalities (or, you know, just play themselves) and if they ever have questions about the setting, tell them to ask you, and you can inform them.

Or you can inform them before they do something stupid that their characters would have known not to do - like mock the Emperor in front of a Witch Hunter. Nobody likes being punished for things they could never have thought up, and the more you tell them, the more they'll learn.

Erk
2008-01-09, 01:29 AM
I've used this trope in three different games now, one way or another. One of those games never really got off the ground, but the other two were excellent, two of the best games I've ever played.

First off, the best of the games had only one player, with a bsc in biology. She was imported into a high-magic world where spells were cast by puzzle solving; her character, being from a different reality, had some ability to bend rules and break the laws applicable to everyone else, so she was a little superpowered. That game was hella fun, we played for about two weeks solid 12 hours a day. Nobody tried to create an empire, because there was only one player and she was too busy trying to keep the Serelenth from capturing her and absorbing all her magic to worry about teaching people to make gunpowder, even if she knew how to do that.

The other game was a larger group, and people did keep saying things like "let's make automatic rifles". I squashed that pretty fast by asking them to explain how, not just the mechanics but who was going to do the work. Within a few hours that whole kick was over.

On a similar note, I played an awesome game where I was a Star Wars character (a human replica droid in fact) ported into a low-magic high fantasy world. As a droid, I did have good reason to know how a lot of technology worked; I had a massive encyclopedia of knowledge at my disposal. The GM was very good at ensuring I couldn't access unreasonably high tech stuff for no reason; I took over a city (an HRD with lightsabers can get a lot of respect very quickly) and began working on getting them to a level where they could make me hyperspace communications. I had just started working out a citywide electrical system using wood and leather insulation over rough copper wire when the city was invaded and smashed by the BBEGs. The pace of the rest of the game ensured I could never settle in one area long enough to get close to advanced metallurgy, though my technological knowhow served the party well many times... and got us in trouble a few, when I assumed that people claiming they could summon lightning from their fingers were either force-users or carrying blasters. Heh. Memories.

Bottom line: such games are only lame if the GM has no clue how to run them. They let players settle very quickly into their roles, and they remove the separation between character and player. They're awesome.

BlackandGold
2008-01-09, 09:42 AM
@neek
Hm, maybe you are right with the languages. I don't have the experience in learning languages, so maybe you are right.
With Trial and Error did I mean, that people didn't know that electricity even exits and they followed many dead ends. That could be effectively negated by a modern person.
I have the same opinion about the best time for me to live. Rome and Greece would be cool. I would also choose East Rome, for religious reasons... :smallbiggrin:



Guardians of the Flame (http://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Dragon-Guardians-Flame/dp/0451453506/ref=pd_bbs_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199814492&sr=8-5) did it right.
Thanks! That was the book series I meant!

EvilElitest
2008-01-11, 08:47 PM
It's harder than it sounds.

When you know what to do, it isn't

Nothing new.


Varies from nation to natino


Um... what?


stalinism


Nothing new here, either.

Hard to please aren't you. But most of those things were in fact new, i mean Britain wasn't always imperialistic eh?


Not all that much help without a literate public.

1. D&D? Trust me, literate public
2. not all propaganda is through writing
3. Remember the 95 thesis plus printing press? Yeah




Not all that valuable without cotton.

What makes you so grumpy? That is pretty obvious, of course there was cotton, why else would we invent them

Nothing new here, either.
Your not a big history fan are you?


These are perhaps the only two inventions that actually matter.
Right.......
from
EE

RandomNPC
2008-01-11, 10:30 PM
i had a friend do a reverse, where we were in school and portals opened up to te typical D&D game, but instead of our going in them an army of monsterous humanoids lead by a man in a cape (shiny!) marched out of the portals.

Aquillion
2008-01-11, 11:05 PM
You can't just make guns or whatever; like someone else said, technology is interconnected, and how likely are you to really know anything about that?

Actually, though, there are some things that could theoretically be used to your advantage even thrown back into the past in a fantasy world.

First, and more than anything else, the printing press. Unfortunately, it'll take a long time for it to have a major impact... but printing presses are not so complicated that I couldn't put together a crude one with the basic understanding I have now. Many of the 'associated technologies' (cheap paper, say) are actually not that hard to do, and only came about because the printing press created a need for them (before then, the cost of doing the writing itself would outweigh anything you could write it on). Of course, literacy will take generations to catch on, but the printing press is an essential step in creating the demand for literacy. So you've changed the world, even if you haven't done very much yourself.

Second, modern military organization, organized into squads with a proper chain of command and commanders chosen based on merit. For most of history, there was nothing like this. There actually were people in history who used something like it, though... the Mongols, for instance. Look where it got them, and you'll get an idea of how effective it could be.


Me- Use slaves
King- Eh?
Me- (explains the slave trade)I don't think there's any major society in history that hasn't at least understood the slave trade. Slavery is as old as warfare itself... this isn't a minor realism issue, this is the same as you marching into the king's chambers and announcing that you've discovered swords. "Executed" wouldn't even begin to describe the sequence of events that would follow. At best, you might get a job as his jester.

EvilElitest
2008-01-12, 12:43 AM
He apparently didn't use slaves, but serfs instead. We told him to go the the tribal gnomes in the east, tell them to capture slaves from the rival tribes, and sell them as slaves. It was kinda sick actually. Anyways, the "modern" slave trade was much different than say the Roman slave trade
from
EE

Leliel
2008-01-12, 04:32 PM
[QUOTE=Xuincherguixe;3763335]If I ever did a game like that, I would rule physics doesn't work the same way to prevent this kind of thing :P

Alternatively, I'd rule that people just wouldn't believe the things he says. Even when it makes no sense. But that's kind of my misanthropy striking again.

"What do you mean, this so called gunpowder of yours is *obviously* summoning thunder. Why do you persist in lying. I've heard about you, pretending to be a god when you're just a lying wizard. Here watch my brother the wizard do the same thing you just did"
*brother wizard does something totally different*
*crowd convinced*[\QUOTE]

You forgot the part where the modern guy says, "OK, lay down an antimagic field!" and does it again within it's radius. For added effect, have him say, "I am not a psion" in a zone of truth.

Beleriphon
2008-01-12, 06:42 PM
Notable Media:
Outcast (PC-Game)
Lost Regiment (William Forstchen): Civil War Tech in an medieval setting
Seventh Sword (http://www.daveduncan.com/ss/index.html) (Dave Duncan): Modern Petrochemist in a fantasyworld, very good
Timeline (Michael Crichton)
And a series of books, where a group of RPG-Friends are transported in their gaming world

Also read 1632 by Eric Flint. It deals with a similar topic. A small US mining town is transported whole sale to middle of Germany during the 30 Year War. They use modern manufacturing methods and modern political ideas to change the shape of the landscape of the world considerably. My favourite bit is when they make canons for the Swedes using modern manufacturing methods methods and tolerances from bronze blanks. They even decide to start to make things like Winchester repeating rifles eventually.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-12, 06:51 PM
And that's how I learned that replicates are people too.

More stories should end like this.

Gygaxphobia
2008-01-13, 02:29 PM
That was 120 years ago. Fantasy novels hadn't been invented yet, and time travel just barely.

Anyway, I don't like this plotline. No matter how much or little it's actually done, it always feels trite. Maybe because so many poorer authors than Mark Twain have done it to make their modern characters total Mary Sues (Twain's suffers rather enough, I think.) Still, Erfworld's done it okay, and re-watching the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon, it's actually pretty good, so maybe it's not always a write-off.

Just popping up to make a point out of defending Mark Twain... he was a satirist. He invented a situation that would allow him to mock and ridicule through demonstration.
Much in the same way that sci-fi is used to try out philosophical "what if?" scenarios.