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LibraryOgre
2008-01-08, 11:33 PM
We had a topic on Vancian Magic a little bit ago, and it occurred to me during the discussion that most people didn't have direct experience with Vance's version of Vancian Magic... just TSR/WotC's version of Vancian magic. As such, I thought I'd give you a quote from "Rhialto the Marvellous," the fourth book of the Dying Earth tetralogy.


Magic is a practical science, or, more properly, a craft, since emphasis is placed primarily upon utility, rather than basic understanding. This is only a general statement, since in a field of such profound scope, every practitioner will have his individual, style, and during the glorious times of Grand Motholam, many of the magician-philosophers tried to grasp the principles which governed the field.
In the end, these investigators, who included the greatest names in sorcery, learned only enough to realize that full and comprehensive knowledge was impossible. In the first place, a desired effect might be achieved through any number of modes, any of which represented a life-time of study, each deriving its force from a different coercive environment.
The great magicians of Grand Motholam were sufficiently supple that they perceived the limits of human understanding, and spent most of their efforts dealing with practical problems, searching for abstract principles only when all else failed. For this reason, magic retains its distinctly human flavor, even though the activating agents are never human. A casual glance into one of the basic catalogues emphasizes this human orientation; the nomenclature has a quaint and archaic flavor. Looking into (for instance) Chapter Four of Killiclaw's Primer of Practical Magic, Interpersonal Effectuations, one notices, indited in bright purple ink, such terminology as:

Xarfaggio's Physical Malepsy
Arnhoult's Sequestrious Digitalia
Lutar Brassnose's Twe;ve-fold Bounty
The Spell of Forlorn Encystment
Tinkler's Old-fashioned Froust
Clambard's Rein of Long Nerves
The Green and Purple Postponement of Joy
Panguire's Triumphs of Discomfort
Lugwiler's Dismal Itch
Khulip's Nasal Enhancement
Radl's Pervasion of the Incorrect Chord

A spell in essence corresponds to a code, or set of instructions, inserted into the sensorium of an entity which is able and not unwilling to alter the environment in accordance with the message conveyed by the spell. These entities are not necessarily 'intelligent,' nor even 'sentient,' and their conduct, from the tyro's point of view, is unpredictable, capricious and dangerous.
The most pliable and cooperative of these creatures range from the lowly and frail elementals, through the sandestins. More fractious entities are known by the Temuchin as 'daihak,' which include 'demons' and gods.' A magicians power derives from the abilities of the entities he is able to control. Every magician of consequence employs one or more sandestins. A few arch-magicians of Grand Motholam dared to employ the force of the lesser daihaks. To recite or even to list the names of these magicians is to evoke wonder and awe. Their names tingle with power. Some Grand Motholam's most notable and dramatic were:

Phandaal the Great
Amberlin I
Amberlin II
Dibarcas Maior (who studied under Phandaal)
Arch-Mage Mael Lel Laio (he lived in a palace carved from a single moon-stone)
The Vapurials
The Green and Purple College
Zinqzin the Encyclopaedist
Kyrol of Porphyrhyncos
Calanctus the Calm
Llorio the Sorceress

The magicians of the 21st Aeon were, in comparison, a disparate and uncertain group, lacking both grandeur and consistency.

Rowanomicon
2008-01-08, 11:44 PM
Thanks for this.
Previously I had been under the impression that "Vancian" meant having a limited number of spells per day.

This seems like the Harry Potter magic system (I know it came before Harry Potter) only better thought out and more... fantastical...

I guess the latter is simply an opinion, but it just "feels" that way to me.

It seems to me like there's 3 basic schools of magic in literature:
1) Vancian: Magic is scientific and you must figure out the "recipe" for what you want to do.
2) The magic in Zelazny's Changeling: Magic is around you and you must learn how to see and utilise it.
3) Middle Earth: Think what you want and if you have enough power it will happen.

Are there more?

Dausuul
2008-01-09, 12:37 AM
Actually, at least in the context of D&D, the defining element of Vancian casting is that spells are "prepared" ahead of time, stored until they are needed, and then expended. To use the spell again, one must prepare it again. I haven't read the Dying Earth books, so I don't know how closely that ties in with Vance's original system.

Rowanomicon
2008-01-09, 12:41 AM
Interesting. So Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters aren't Vancian casters.

averagejoe
2008-01-09, 12:48 AM
Interesting. So Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters aren't Vancian casters.

I think sorcorers were an attempt to create a DnD caster that was closer to a "mana" system, but meshed better with preexisting mechanics. It actually works fairly well, if you think of spells/day as the amount of mana you have. (That is, if you have 60 mana, and all your spells cost 10 mana, you have 6 spells/day.) Obviously it isn't perfect, since it had to mesh somewhat with the wizard/cleric mechanics, but it was ultimately never intended to be Vancian (unless I'm completely mistaken.)

Rowanomicon
2008-01-09, 12:51 AM
Yeah, that totally makes sense.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I guess Mana is another system, but not really different from the 3 I listed. It can be used with any of them, it's just a limit to how much/often you can do whatever it is you do that's magical.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-09, 12:53 AM
Towards the end of "Eyes of the Overworld" (the second book) Cugel horribly messes up two spells... one is supposed to entomb his enemies miles down. Instead, it releases everyone who had ever been entombed by that spell in the area. Another, which was to send his enemies to the far side of the world, instead sent him.

Aquillion
2008-01-09, 05:20 AM
Towards the end of "Eyes of the Overworld" (the second book) Cugel horribly messes up two spells... one is supposed to entomb his enemies miles down. Instead, it releases everyone who had ever been entombed by that spell in the area. Another, which was to send his enemies to the far side of the world, instead sent him.He messed up nearly every spell he tried to cast... on the other hand, he was able to use magic with essentially no prior training beyond a few minutes of crash course from a trapped wizard. He wasn't any good at it, and he lacked innate talent, but he could cast spells and get effects.

Hmm, a bit like suddenly taking a level in wizard, come to think of it...

Another thing worth noting: Several of D&D's iconic spells come from there (Imprisonment, as you noted, was the spell Cudgel was trying to cast, copied in D&D right down to the minor fluff detail of the victim ending up in a 'tiny cyst' beneath the earth... And he got Freedom instead, which, in earlier editions, was just Imprisonment's effect reversed. Earlier editions had that.) The most interesting, though, is Prismatic Spray, or, as it was originally called, The Excellent Prismatic Spray, which was the iconic spell of one of the mages of the aforementioned 21st Aeon; its colorful and excessive effect was actually intended to show his decadence.

Several other spells are from there, too. Binding, Clone, the concept of ray spells and the appearance of disintigrate, Time Stop... ioun stones are from there, too, and are particularly noteworthy because they even took the name (although in Dying Earth, the only ioun stones have the orange effect, and they stack with each other.)


Actually, at least in the context of D&D, the defining element of Vancian casting is that spells are "prepared" ahead of time, stored until they are needed, and then expended. To use the spell again, one must prepare it again. I haven't read the Dying Earth books, so I don't know how closely that ties in with Vance's original system.In the Dying Earth books, each spellcaster can only prepare a certain number of spells from their books at once, which takes a short (but not negligable) length of time. There's no restriction about rest or anything, so a spellcaster with a spellbook can keep casting all day... as long as they have time to memorize, which, obviously, the stories often wouldn't give them. There were no 'spell levels'; each spellcaster could prepare a certain number of spells based on their innate talent, and a spell to open a lock took up just as much 'space' as the spells that would eventually become Imprisonment and Prismatic Spray.

It's easy to see how this could work for a narrative; some stories would begin with the spellcaster deciding which spells to bring with them to, say, steal something from a more powerful wizard, and would then show how they cleverly used each one to survive, even against unexpected surprises. It also let wizards do incredible things, while still giving them limits that are very clear to the reader... and it clears up the whole 'why doesn't Gandalf just magically do XYZ' thing, because the readers know exactly what magic the main character can do at any given moment.

kamikasei
2008-01-09, 05:28 AM
It sounds to me (based solely on the quotation) that the defining feature of Vancian magic is actually the use of these explicit entities, and the possibility that they'll mess up your instructions. It reminds me of Binders, and of that Al-Quadim class mentioned here a while back that used djinni.

It seems like a decent and interesting way to introduce fallibility and flavour to arcane casting. On the other hand it might be bloody frustrating, and I can see why it might have been downplayed in earlier editions when the "D&D is devil-worship" meme was stronger.

horseboy
2008-01-09, 12:16 PM
It sounds to me (based solely on the quotation) that the defining feature of Vancian magic is actually the use of these explicit entities, and the possibility that they'll mess up your instructions. It reminds me of Binders, and of that Al-Quadim class mentioned here a while back that used djinni.

It seems like a decent and interesting way to introduce fallibility and flavour to arcane casting. On the other hand it might be bloody frustrating, and I can see why it might have been downplayed in earlier editions when the "D&D is devil-worship" meme was stronger.

That and the black box nature.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-09, 12:18 PM
If D&D magic were really like this, I'd have less of a problem with it.

Morty
2008-01-09, 12:28 PM
Even though I don't usually like magic working by contacting some entities, I'd say that this sounds absoulutely great. I must finally go and read some book by Vance.

Indon
2008-01-09, 12:39 PM
2) The magic in Zelazny's Changeling: Magic is around you and you must learn how to see and utilise it.

Have you read Madwand, the sequel to Changeling? The following is a relevant spoiler for the book:

That series uses your type three magic, but only Pol managed to figure it out at the end.

I think your type two magic could be better expressed as 'systematic' magic. Magic which is essentially a use of a series of tools to produce predictable results by those trained in those tools. I think a good example would be the magic of The Dragon and the George books.

Also, I think it's telling when Zelazny includes not original Vancian magic in his later Amber novels, but what is apparent now (to me, anyway) as D&D Vancian magic.

Yahzi
2008-01-09, 10:50 PM
As such, I thought I'd give you a quote from "Rhialto the Marvellous," the fourth book of the Dying Earth tetralogy.
Man, I love Jack Vance.

Check out how he spends a page describing how wonderful and cool magicians used to be, and then finishes by explaining how pathetic the magicians in the story you are about to read are.

:smallbiggrin:

In "The Dying Earth," higher-level mages (those with more training) could memorize more spells, and some mention is made of spells being of more or less complexity.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-09, 10:57 PM
Even though I don't usually like magic working by contacting some entities, I'd say that this sounds absoulutely great. I must finally go and read some book by Vance.

The language is fantastic. It's the real reason to read Vance; I would suggest starting with "Rhialto the Marvellous"

LibraryOgre
2008-01-11, 12:24 AM
"I am more inclined to punish Hurtiancz for his crassness," said Ildefonse. "But now he simulates a swinish stupidity to escape my anger."
"Absolute falsity!" roared Hurtiancz. "I simulate nothing!"
Ildefonse shrugged. "For all his deficiencies as polemicist and magician, Hurtiancz at least is candid."

. .

Armoury99
2008-01-11, 12:21 PM
Yeah, if only D&D magic felt like this!

I'd actually recommend the short story Maziran the Magician as well, as it deals with Vancian wizardry neatly and shortly. Tales of Dying Earth is my personal favourite book (its an anthology). Vance wrote in a couple of wildly divergent styles... but its definitely all worth a look though.

If you like his later Cudgel stuff, I recommend The Dying Earth RPG... though it'll definitely not be to everyone's taste!

Valairn
2008-01-11, 12:40 PM
Funnily enough the tome of battle system of maneuver preparation seems the most similar to "actual" vancian magic. You prepare your maneuvers before hand, and whenever you have time, you can change them up, though the magicians don't have such easy recovery methods, it actually takes time to memorize the spells, before moving on.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-11, 02:14 PM
I will point out that, throughout Rhialto the Marvellous (which deals with a group of magicians), they throw around time stops with amazing frequency... and they last a long time.

Artanis
2008-01-11, 04:22 PM
they throw around time stops with amazing frequency... and they last a long time.
I find this statement hilariously ironic :smallbiggrin:

UserClone
2008-01-11, 05:38 PM
Have any of you read Lyndon Hardy's Master of the Five Magics? I really enjoyed how they played up the differences between the various disciplines therein. Also, to keep my post on topic, something something blah blah Vancian Magic.