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Double_Negative
2008-01-09, 04:16 AM
I'm running a level 1 campaign that's going to have very heavy undead leanings (Essentially anything that isn't blessed after it dies gets back up) and want to add in a twist. At the end of the first session, I'm going to turn everyone into undead themselves. I was thinking one of two routes, both of which using Chapter 2 of the libris mortis

Either:
A) Turn them all into vampire spawn and incorporate a mechanic that requires them to feed

B) Turn them into assorted undead

If I were to select A, I'm going to try and think up special abilities, because having them all get identical abilities and stats until ECL 8 is just boring.

So what I really mean to ask is, does anyone have thoughts on interesting powers I could use?

Talic
2008-01-09, 04:35 AM
I'm running a level 1 campaign that's going to have very heavy undead leanings (Essentially anything that isn't blessed after it dies gets back up) and want to add in a twist. At the end of the first session, I'm going to turn everyone into undead themselves. I was thinking one of two routes, both of which using Chapter 2 of the libris mortis

Either:
A) Turn them all into vampire spawn and incorporate a mechanic that requires them to feed

B) Turn them into assorted undead

If I were to select A, I'm going to try and think up special abilities, because having them all get identical abilities and stats until ECL 8 is just boring.

So what I really mean to ask is, does anyone have thoughts on interesting powers I could use?

Why do they need abilities? They have classes and feats. If you're going to make them undead, go for one of two ways.

A) Necropolitan - Low ECL mod, focuses on classes over racial HD, good if you want to emphasize magic.

B) Wights - Easy to incorporate (negative energy death = wight), decent abilities, good if you want to de-emphasize magic.

Double_Negative
2008-01-09, 06:09 AM
Well, that sort of changes things I suppose. Part of it is that sweet vampiric allure. See, with no other template is there the whole "you need to drink people" thing (I swear I'm not some annoying goth kid who wanks to white wolf). Also, you remind me of another interesting issue. Do I bump them up to ECL 8, or make them level up using the table in the Libris Mortis? Maybe I'll just let the players decide if they wish to enhance their vampiric gifts, or if they wish to further their more mundane skills. I suppose it adds another level.

Thanks for the input, you've given me a lot to think about.

Talic
2008-01-09, 06:21 AM
Well, that sort of changes things I suppose. Part of it is that sweet vampiric allure. See, with no other template is there the whole "you need to drink people" thing (I swear I'm not some annoying goth kid who wanks to white wolf). Also, you remind me of another interesting issue. Do I bump them up to ECL 8, or make them level up using the table in the Libris Mortis? Maybe I'll just let the players decide if they wish to enhance their vampiric gifts, or if they wish to further their more mundane skills. I suppose it adds another level.

Thanks for the input, you've given me a lot to think about.

Racial levels must be taken before class levels.

Also, racial progression is probably the way to go.

That said, if you want a variety of powers, why not let each player choose what undead he becomes? You could get a Vampire Spawn, a Wight, a ghoul, and a Mohrg in a party.

Forrestfire
2008-01-09, 09:54 PM
Racial levels must be taken before class levels.

Accually, that rule does not apply to templates

Necromas
2008-01-09, 10:07 PM
Another alternative is to just make them undead, but without giving them some template that messes with their character.

IE, classified as undead, undead immunities, healing hurts and negative energy heals, but they keep their constitution, hit dice, mental abilities, and anything else their classes give them. For added flavor you can even give them the need to feed and call em vampires, or something.

If I were one of your players, I would much prefer this option, because as it stands the other methods of becoming undead all really mess with your character, losing con screws over tanks and favors casters, etherealness completely changes the way you have to play, stat bonuses favor characters that rely on those stats, etc....

Tempest Fennac
2008-01-10, 03:41 AM
Another huge problem for warriors is that they would end up with Wizard attack progression (unless you let them keep class features). How well do you think you're party would tak e this plot twist, and will there be anything they can do to avoid it?

mabriss lethe
2008-01-10, 04:16 AM
My vote is for necropolitan.

Funkyodor
2008-01-10, 04:54 AM
Probably use an amalgam of Necropolitan and Vampire Spawn. Undead qualities, but they can only heal naturally if they feed on someone at least once a day type thing and fast healing if they killed the guy. They keep the bonuses/penalties of their previous race and they keep their con, but if they stop feeding for an extended period (say a few days to a week) then they quickly loose CON and mental stats until they revert to the mindless horde type zombie. They get these points back fairly quickly after feeding again. This puts a mental need for the players to have their characters hunting the living to keep themselves sane at least, and even if those resolute goodie goodies starve themselves into mindlessness, the character regaining his sanity while standing over his victim could add a dark side to the characters demeanor.

Add light sensitivity if you want some bastion of hope for humanity.

Create an assortment of feats they can take at certan levels if you want them to stand apart from each other more than what Race & Class combos would do.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-01-10, 05:05 AM
can't you just give them the vampire template? It is alot easier...they keep class levels and then can just gain more. All they get is a level adjustment.

If you want them to have various special abilities...I would suggest looking into the White Wolf game 'Vampire: The masquerade' for ideas...it can potentially be worked into a dnd style system with different clans of vamps granting different special abilities.

martyboy74
2008-01-10, 08:09 AM
Giving them the vamp. template gives them a massive +8 LA. That's going to screw up some builds an incredible amount.

kentma57
2008-01-10, 08:39 AM
So you are going to make TWO of the charcters undead :smallconfused: what about the rest of the party. If thoses two characters gain 8 ECL the other characters are left in the dust. Do you plan to give them 8 spontaneus class levels because their friends became vampiers?

Keld Denar
2008-01-10, 09:43 AM
Giving them the vamp. template gives them a massive +8 LA. That's going to screw up some builds an incredible amount.

Yeah, but if everyone gets it, you could just ignore the LA and move on with life. The DM throws things that are slightly more powerful, they kill it and drink its blood, and unlife goes on. So long as everyone is treated quaziequally and challenges are appropriate, who cares? Just don't force someone to take actual levels in Vampire or whatever if they don't want to.

I would also like to 2nd wights. They have the whole ravenous feeding thing that you said you wanted, are much better for melee builds, and have more of a 28 Days Later feel to them than zombies.

I'd HIGHLY suggest against allowing incorp undead though. They are immensely hard to plan adventures for, given their almost limitless mobility. I wouldn't allow your PCs to pick Shadow, Wraith, Spectre, Alip, Ghost, or any of the other incorps. That just messes with things.

mabriss lethe
2008-01-10, 10:11 AM
well...what was that book from a few years ago? Ghostwalk or something like that. I wasn't all that thrilled by the thing, but it might have some good ideas for playing incorporeal undead.

Tempest Fennac
2008-01-10, 10:14 AM
Is there a way for the players to cure thmselves of being undead? If they don't like the idea of being undead, there's a good chance that they would try to find a way to cure it.

mabriss lethe
2008-01-10, 10:17 AM
Is there a way for the playerss to cure thmselves of being undead? If they don't like the idea of being undead, there's a good chance that they would try to find a way to cure it.

I think most undead can be returned to mortality through the use of resurrection of true resurrection.

Tempest Fennac
2008-01-10, 10:18 AM
Thanks (I knew that would work, but I wondered if there was a cheaper way, apart from dieing and drawing up another character).

blacksabre
2008-01-10, 10:39 AM
I would go the vampire route, and make any changes to the characters abilites over time and depending on what the players do.

If the players don't want to be undead, let them know of a "cure" or magic device which will cleanse them of the "disease". However, if they "feed" three times before the cure, there is no redemption

They'll decide then which way they want to go, maybe some RP will come about in the party as to who wants and who doesn't want to be a vamp.
If they decide to go for the cure, send them on the quest..the quest should take approx 15-20 days

To resist the feeding, daily Fort Save of 10. Each day without feeding is a +1.
Fail the save, and the character must feed or loose 3 pts constitution permenantly (WISH will work per spell descr.)

Feed three times, and the transformation is complete..they are a Vampire permanantly.

The players each have access to some vamp abilities, Strength, gaseous form, charm etc...maybe each of them have unique abilities to start
Along the quest, the encounters, combat, puzzles/traps and Role play should "offer" an easy way out if they use a vampire power. Using any vampire power adds a +1 to the base daily Fort save.

Tempest Fennac
2008-01-10, 10:46 AM
That is quite a good idea. The perminant Con loss sounds overly harsh, though (if it only happens once, it would cause a lot of problems if the party find the cure due to how expensive Wish would be at this point). I'd say having Restoration curing it would be fair enough (it would still cost a lot, but the Con loss would be easier to recover).

Keld Denar
2008-01-10, 11:25 AM
That is quite a good idea. The perminant Con loss sounds overly harsh, though (if it only happens once, it would cause a lot of problems if the party find the cure due to how expensive Wish would be at this point). I'd say having Restoration curing it would be fair enough (it would still cost a lot, but the Con loss would be easier to recover).

Well, since undead have no CON...

Also, there ARE already rules in LM for hungering. I don't remember them off the top of my head, but they are in there somewhere around the area that has level breakdowns for undead PCs. I think it does CHA or WIS damage every day past a certain satiation period. Past a certain point, the character becomes stark raving mad and tries to eat everything.

Tempest Fennac
2008-01-10, 01:34 PM
I assumed the idea was for the Con penalties to kick in if and when the cure was found and used. The Wis/Cha damage would be a fairer idea in this case.

Burley
2008-01-10, 01:49 PM
Another alternative is to just make them undead, but without giving them some template that messes with their character.

IE, classified as undead, undead immunities, healing hurts and negative energy heals, but they keep their constitution, hit dice, mental abilities, and anything else their classes give them. For added flavor you can even give them the need to feed and call em vampires, or something.

If I were one of your players, I would much prefer this option, because as it stands the other methods of becoming undead all really mess with your character, losing con screws over tanks and favors casters, etherealness completely changes the way you have to play, stat bonuses favor characters that rely on those stats, etc....

I'd have to agree with Necromas. There is a big difference between tweaking and changing. If you pre-made all of the characters first, then go for it. But, if I were one of your players, and you jacked up my character sheet after I had spent any serious amount of time on it, I'd be pretty ticked off.
I'd go with just making them undead as Necromas suggests. For a slightly vampiric feel, while still keeping good/neutral alignments (if you want that), maybe they can take a standard action to attack an undead creature for like 1d4 points of stolen temporary hitpoints. Maybe, you could have the d4 change to a d6 and a d8 later on at specific levels. It'd make the players think your giving them some super special abilities, when they're really just conforming to your plot. :smalltongue:

Prometheus
2008-01-10, 06:07 PM
I would take option two, making them all different types of undead based on the theme of their characters. If the LA is two high, use the Savage Species trick and have them slowly gain undead levels before (or even while) they gain other class levels.

blacksabre
2008-01-11, 03:05 PM
Clarify the CON loss thingy..

If they fail the DC check, they MUST feed OR get the con loss.

The thinking is , they are infected, there is no easy way out..the longer they take to get the cure, the more likely they will die fom CON loss, or become a vamp from feeding.

The thinking here is after a few days of questing, and maybe the they have used some vamp abilites, causing them to fail the save, a few of the party have lost CON and decide what the hell, screw this, I'm going full VAMP...
Inter group drama ensues

Loosing the CON is also the path to being undead..if they die due to CON loss, they become undead, but at that point they wouldn't be a player character..I'd turn them in to NPC's that a DM can have fune with later.

the con loss is to place urgency on the quest..its that diabolical

in hindsight, When the cure is found and used, all CON loss would be restored.

Keld Denar
2008-01-11, 03:16 PM
Con loss really really really hurts just about any pc. Con directly affects hp, and most characters tend to have 12-16. After losing a few points, this can drop to below 10, at which time the character dips dangerously low on hp. If the charcters are taking part in the standard adventuring fair, they will be trading blows and taking damage...a lot. The loss of con won't be the killer in the end, it'll be the catalyst to a very grizzly end on the wrong end of an orcs greatspear. The PCs will most likely die from trauma than con loss, especially when con reaches the 4-6 range. Granted, the alternative is to feed, but then its more forced on the player, since the alternative is destruction.

blacksabre
2008-01-11, 03:34 PM
I agree, its a nasty situation they would be in.

As for HP loss, this can be offset by using the Vamp ability of regenerate, which of course adds to the DC check ..vicious circle yes..but it is diabolical, and a deadly disease.

The disease is not designed to kill you, but lead down the path to the dark side so to speak..thats what they are fighting..sucumb to the lure of the power, or fight it while getting weaker doing so..get the cure..and become heroes , not of some town, or city, but of your own soul...

As a reward in the end after getting cured, I'd through in possible immunities to some undead abilities permanently.

The goal for me would to emphasize the serious and drama of their situation.
You can lower the amount of CON loss if the party would die easily from more.

If the players decide to go undead from the beginning, then skip it, but if they decide to fight the disease, the disease should be formidable.

A disease that you can just walk in to any temple and buy a cure, or just take your time to find a cure is a non-issue, and not very dramatic.

I envision the campaign having many dramatic role play possibilities within the party..

Benejeseret
2008-01-11, 05:06 PM
Make the game gestalt.

One one side they gain class levels just like they normally would have, without screwing with their builds etc.

On the other side, rather than a second 'class' they can add up the templates, racial hitdice, level adjustments that they want going undead or undeadish class filler. Make them all take +1 LA on the gestalt side for Fleshvigor for the feeding/healing and let it apply to all undead types in some manner.

ie. a lvl 12 gestalt rogue becomes undead (gestalt) and chooses Shadow Vampire with the +10 LA, fleshvigor +1 and still have 1 levels to fill as gestalt, and so takes 1 levels of warlock = lvl12 gestalt

player 2 is a lvl 12 wizard who becomes undead gestalt by taking Suel Lich +5 level and takes the rest as gestalt Thaumaturgist lvl 5 the Evolved +1 and fleshvigor +1= wizard12 // evolved suellich thaumaturgist5 = lvl12 gestalt

player 3 is a lvl12 fighter who is not too interested in going far into undead and so chooses the level adjustment-light Gravetouched Ghoul +2 lvl with Fleshvigor +1 and then takes 9 levels as a gestalt BlackGuard = lvl 12 gestalt

This way everyone can do what they want, everyone gets more power equally, no-one gets their build screwed, and the overall power level of the game does not jump hugely (I believe I once read that gestalt games run at 150% ECL of party...whatever the rule is, it applies).

Benejeseret
2008-01-11, 06:23 PM
Now to address Con based classes/build based on my gestalt suggestion above.

For an example let's continue and conscider a lvl 12 dwarf barbarian who would gain very little by going undead (would loose HP if con based).

Well, do not force him to be undead per se. He is a very hardy and healthy mortal so let's say that he resists, or partially resists the fell magics or powers that fells the rest of the party.

If the players wish to remain 'living' with Con, let them choose half-vampire, katane, Ghul, Gheden, or Fetch to start with as the dark death magic twists their body and soul. You can easily still attach Fleshvigor (slight RAW change) and assign whatever penalties you want to 'force' the feeding.

Thus a lvl12 dwarf barbarian could choose as gestalt to go Ghul +3 LA and lets say the dark magics twist the dwarf into a Druegar (depends on setting fluff) +2 LA and let's say the corrupted template for +5 to make him a corrupted druegar Ghul along with 1 gestalt levels of hexblade and +1LA Fleshvigor = lvl12 gestalt and thus 'equal' to all the other gestalt lvl characters above

Tempest Fennac
2008-01-12, 03:10 AM
Thanks for clarifying the Con idea, blacksabre (that would add a lot of drama while not punishing the players perminantly).