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Thinker
2008-01-09, 10:51 AM
I have come up with a fix to tone down spell casters that could help out across the board. It might be a little bit too much, but casters have been on top for far too long and so its about time they were put in their place!

Here are the changes to spellcasting involved in this fix (There are seven of them so they're spoilered!):


Spellcraft: This skill is normally worthless and none of my casters have ever taken it. Why bother? So you can check out what another caster is doing? Bleah! Time to improve its usefulness while hurting the casters. Make it so in order to cast any spell the caster must make a Spellcraft check with a DC of 15 + Spell Levelē. Failure means the spell-slot is wasted. Rolling a 1 on the check means the spell backfires and affects you with maximum negative effect (healing only heals 1 point, damage spells deal max damage, etc). If meleers can have their primary abilities negated by bad luck, why not casters?
Magic Defense: Not enough creatures can defend against magic and those mages have had a free ride for too long. Give every class a Magic Armor Class (MAC for short). A character's MAC is 10 + Wisdom Modifier + Best Save. A wizard must make an attack roll against this MAC using a non-finessable melee attack. This has the added benefit of giving them a bit of mad, having to pump strength.
MAD: Casters don't need enough stats right now. I suggest making all bonus spells based on Intelligence, highest spell-level castable based on Wisdom, and spell-saves based on Charisma. That way they really feel the sting like monks have had to since the game was invented.
Casting Time: If these guys are telling the laws of the universe to shut the hell up, go back into the kitchen, and bring back some pot pies, they should have to take a long time for it. All buff spells require a minimum cast time of a number of rounds equal to the spell-caster's Dexterity modifier. This will encourage spell-casters to not pump dexterity, thus meaning they will go last. Next, all spell levels require a number of actions to perform, as given on the following table:
{table=head]SL|Actions
1|Standard Action
2|Full Round Action
3|Full Round
4|Full Round Action + Standard Action
5|2 Full Round Actions
6|1 Full Round Action + Full Round
7|2 Full Round Actions + Standard Action
8|3 Full Round Actions
9|4 Full Round Actions
[/table]
This change would make the spellcasting more flavorful and keep it in line with great books about fantasy where more powerful beings must take more time to unleash their more powerful attacks.
Spell Interruption: Any time a spell-caster is in line of sight with an opponent that has a weapon that could hurt him from that range the caster must make a Concentration check with a DC of 15 + enemy's maximum damage. The caster must make this check every round he is trying to cast the spell. Should the enemy actually attack the caster the caster must make a new check with a DC of 25 + enemy's maximum damage.
Skill Points: Spellcasters get so many spells that boost skills so that they shouldn't need to have many skill points. All spell-casters only get 2 skill points every level (8 at level 1), regardless of intelligence.
Spells: Many spells can be a problem. They give the caster unfair advantages. Here is what we do about it. Remove 9th level spells. Increase all spell levels by 1 level; 0th level spells become 1st, 1st become 2nd, etc. Also remove any spell that does not offer a save and add an attack roll (in addition to the MAC roll) to all spells without one. This way you can imagine casters trying to hit their targets and the target shrugging it off!



I don't think you need to use them all to have fun with your games, but I'm always interested in hearing more suggestions about others! What do you think of these ones??

Or you could just play with one of the other DnD magic systems if you have a real problem with them. There are plenty: Incarnum, Psionics, Pact Magic, etc. This post is an act of parody and is not intended to single out any person and is posted for comedic effect.

Keld Denar
2008-01-09, 11:14 AM
Wow....this is just....bad. Seriously. A combination of 4 and 5 means that anyone who wants to cast anything more than a cantrip has to make like, 20 concentration checks if they are in the open and threatened by a couple of archers. The odds of a spell caster EVER getting a spell off in combat is about 0. Combine this with 7 which makes spells higher level thus longer cast times means that casting spells in combat will be pretty much impossible. And even if they did get a spell off (bloody miricle?) between the attack roll and the extra saves and MAD, it probably won't do anything anyway.

Seriously dude. At this point, no one would play any kind of caster (wiz/cleric/BARD!!! you don't seriously want to nerf bard, do you?). The world would just be filled with uber chargers who run around slamming into things.

The skills thing doesn't even make sense. No sense at all...

Tren
2008-01-09, 11:21 AM
Well played sir.:smallamused:

I should start applying some of these to Batman wizards in my group.

blue_fenix
2008-01-09, 11:22 AM
I'm sensing a certain level of sarcasm here, especially when you notice things like the spellcraft DC for a 9th level spell being set at 96. If this is sarcasm, then I'm not sure what the point is, besides pointing out that spellcasters can be way overpowered (if played correctly and with a very large amount of OOC knowledge and optimization and if the DM doesn't send them challenges designed to defeat casters).

If the post is not sarcastic, then I must say that these recommendations, even only applying one of them, go far too far to the other extreme of making casters almost worthless. The true solution to caster overpowered-ness is a careful reworking of all the spells in existence, eliminating some and rewriting others. Unfortunately, this is a solution that is fairly unfeasible for any lone player or DM to attempt, although I would love to see a collaborative attempt.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-09, 11:23 AM
Is...is #1 really 15+spell level squared? Do you realize that that means in order to cast a ninth level spell, you're talking a check of DC 106?

2 is potentially a good idea, but I think it's a strange way of going about it. Why would a spellcaster use Strength to target his spells? I'd use Dexterity, or maybe Wisdom.

As for 3, dual-stat is usually enough to bring someone down to size. I'd venture Int for bonus spells/spells known and Cha for saves, like the Shadowcsater.

4 doesn't fit with the idea of Vancian casting at all. I've cast it all beforehand, so why am I recasting it now? Also, the retributive Dexterity thing makes little to no sense.

5 is pretty ridiculous. Concentration's fine the way it is.

Skill points are not really a problem when it comes to spellcasters, granted, but that's not the way to go about fixing the skill system.

And as for 7, what would we do without cantrips?
Jolly good show, old chap. Had me going for a minute there, and then I realized, "Oh, wait, it's Thinker."

Kurald Galain
2008-01-09, 11:26 AM
I understand that you're kidding, but the post entirely fails at being actually funny.

Thinker
2008-01-09, 11:31 AM
I'm sorry, I'll reiterate the disclaimer from the first post. Its in white text at the bottom, but it looks like people are getting a bit more heated than I had intended:


Or you could just play with one of the other DnD magic systems if you have a real problem with them. There are plenty: Incarnum, Psionics, Pact Magic, etc. This post is an act of parody and is not intended to single out any person and is posted for comedic effect.

Just highlight the white space in the first post to see. This post is because in my time here I've seen a lot of spellcaster "fixes." This is also because 4th Ed is nearly upon us and if I never got around to finally posting it, I probably wouldn't :smalltongue:

Yes its sarcasm and parody.

Keld Denar
2008-01-09, 11:47 AM
I'm sorry, I'll reiterate the disclaimer from the first post. Its in white text at the bottom, but it looks like people are getting a bit more heated than I had intended:

Yes its sarcasm and parody.

Damn, I think I just rolled a 1 on my save vs sarcasm. I have received the full effect of whatever spell you just cast, and it also destroys on of my magic items. I saw this and immediately though...is this man daft? ITS MADNESS!!! MADNESS!!!

I mean, come on, a 1st level caster reliant completely on acid splash (oops, can't use that, no save) Ray of Frost (same, no save) Daze that requires a DC16 spellcraft check, a DC16 concentration check for each person with a melee or throwing weapon out, rolling vs ~AC 13-14 with 0 BAB and probably 10 str, then a DC 13 will save to avoid, thats like, 4 failure methods with each having a 50-60% failure rate. The odds of this poor guy landing that daze is about 1 in 16 or more. I mean, playing a 1st level wizard sucks, but damn....

kieza
2008-01-09, 11:58 AM
My spellcaster fix:

Whenever you cast a spell, you must make a Spellcraft check afterwards. The DC starts at 10+spell level. If you fail the check, there is a side effect ranging from odd (the grass grows 3 inches, your hair turns purple) to annoying (Everyone in 20 feet takes a -2 Wisdom penalty for 1 minute, a thunderclap deafens everyone (including foes) for 1 minute.) If you fail the check by 5 or more (or you roll natural 1), you attract the attention of an extraplanar being hostile to you (something minor for your level, like an imp or Quazit at level 5 or a bearded devil at level 8), who can enter the world through the disturbance caused by your spell.

Every spell you cast causes "distortion," a weakness in the fabric of reality; spells result in 1 point of distortion per spell level. Each point of distortion you cause increases the DC of the Spellcraft check by 1. Distortion dissipates at 1 point/round. Distortion is tracked separately for all casters. When you fail the check, the distortion is decreased by 10, but there is no other way to discharge distortion.

To compensate for the chance of attracting additional enemies, spells per day are unlimited. However, past 3rd level spells, you rapidly increase the risk of failing the check. Typically, your own party will stop you from casting too many spells. At level 20, after you cast 3-4 level 9 spells you have a good chance of failing your check badly.

Kesnit
2008-01-09, 12:06 PM
I have come up with a fix to tone down spell casters that could help out across the board. It might be a little bit too much, but casters have been on top for far too long and so its about time they were put in their place!

Spellcraft: This skill is normally worthless and none of my casters have ever taken it. Why bother? So you can check out what another caster is doing? Bleah! Time to improve its usefulness while hurting the casters. Make it so in order to cast any spell the caster must make a Spellcraft check with a DC of 15 + Spell Levelē. Failure means the spell-slot is wasted. Rolling a 1 on the check means the spell backfires and affects you with maximum negative effect (healing only heals 1 point, damage spells deal max damage, etc). If meleers can have their primary abilities negated by bad luck, why not casters?

Let's do some math here... LVL 1 Wizard. Max rank = 4. INT mod of +2 (since you spread casting stats out below). Spellcraft ranks = 6. Said WIZ must roll 10 or higher to cast a 1st level spell, meaning they will fail 50% of the time. Casting a cantrip will fail 45% of the time.

Out of 3 cantrips, they will get 2 off, and will only cast their 1 1st level spell every other day (on average). So an already weak low-level caster becomes even weaker...

17th level WIZ. Max ranks of spellcraft = 20. Spellcraft check to cast a 9th level spell - 21. They will only fail on a roll of 1 - or 5% of the time.

If this is an attempt to gimp high-level casters, it fails horribly.


Magic Defense: Not enough creatures can defend against magic

What about the majority of spells that require a save? Or the spells that require a ranged or melee touch attack?


Give every class a Magic Armor Class (MAC for short). A character's MAC is 10 + Wisdom Modifier + Best Save. A wizard must make an attack roll against this MAC using a non-finessable melee attack.

Do you mean all spells must be melee touch, or standard melee, including armor/shield/natural/dodge AC?) With a 1/2 BAB progression, AC is going to far outstrip what a caster's AB is going to be able to reach.

A succubus (CR 7) has an AC of 20. Full-BAB classes have a BAB of 7, Rogue style have a BAB of 5. Casters have a BAB of 3. In addition, melee and ranged attack types have weapon bonus that can be used to hit. A caster, under your system, is entirely reliant on their BAB and STR. (And since you gave them worse MAD than a Monk, they probably won't have points to put into STR.) In this case, the caster would need a roll of 17 to hit, whereas a well-equiped Fighter or Ranger will hit on 10 (or so), and a Rogue not much higher.

A balor (CR 20) has an AC of 35. Full-BAB has a BAB of 20, Rogue-style has a BAB of 15, and a caster of 10. The Fighter and Rogues are still hitting on a roll of between 10-15. Casters can only hit on a natural 20.

Neither of those examples takes into account that those monsters do have SR. So even if the 20th level caster is lucky enough to hit the balor, they still have to overcome SR 28.


MAD: Casters don't need enough stats right now. I suggest making all bonus spells based on Intelligence, highest spell-level castable based on Wisdom, and spell-saves based on Charisma. That way they really feel the sting like monks have had to since the game was invented.

You left off their reliance on STR in order to be able to hit things, giving them worse MAD than a Monk - or any other class.


Casting Time: If these guys are telling the laws of the universe to shut the hell up, go back into the kitchen, and bring back some pot pies, they should have to take a long time for it. All buff spells require a minimum cast time of a number of rounds equal to the spell-caster's Dexterity modifier. This will encourage spell-casters to not pump dexterity, thus meaning they will go last.

And meaning they will have no AC, since they can't wear armor. The above mentioned succubus (AB +6) could hit them on a 7, assuming DEX 10 and Bracers of Armor +3.


Spell Interruption: Any time a spell-caster is in line of sight with an opponent that has a weapon that could hurt him from that range the caster must make a Concentration check with a DC of 15 + enemy's maximum damage.

Which means they will be targetting anytime there is a ranged combatant, since ranged combatants can fire into melee. Whether they choose to or not is a moot point, given the way you phrased that.

Now you are adding a reliance on CON, since that is the ability for Concentration.

More math...

LVL 1 caster, max ranks = 4. CON bonus +1. An archer with a heavy crossbow can do 10 damage. DC check = 25. The caster can only succeed on a natural 20. Even against a dart, the check is 19, meaning they only succeed on a roll of 15 or higher. (I'm not even taking critical hits into account.)

LVL 20 caster, max ranks = 23. CON bonus still +1. Archer with Heavy Crossbow +5 loaded with Bolts of Fire (1d6).
Total max damage = 10+5+6=21. DC=36
Now the caster succeeds on a check of 12 or higher. Still not great odds, but better than above.
Against Flaming Darts +5, the check is 4+5+6 = 15, meaning the caster only fails on a 1.


The caster must make this check every round he is trying to cast the spell. Should the enemy actually attack the caster the caster must make a new check with a DC of 25 + enemy's maximum damage.

Even more math...

LVL 1 caster
Heavy crossbow: 10+25=35. Succeed on natural 20 only
Dart: 4+25=29 succeed on natural 20 only.

LVL 20 caster
Heavy crossbow+5 and Flaming bolts: 25+10+5+6=46. Succeed on natural 20 only
Flaming Darts +5: 25+4+5+6=40. Succeed on 16 or higher.


Skill Points: Spellcasters get so many spells that boost skills so that they shouldn't need to have many skill points.

But they only have a limited number of spells/day or spells known. If your SORC knows (say) Identify, then they don't know a spell that could be used in combat. (Not that they are useful in combat anyway, given the way you gimped them, but anyway...) Even a WIZ, who could in theory know every spell, only has a small number that can be cast on any given day. The day could come when they need Identify, but they prepared Mage Armor instead.


Also remove any spell that does not offer a save

There's not that many, so you aren't gaining much here.

OK, and after all that, I see your disclaimer.

Amusing idea, but you need to make the disclaimer visible to anyone. Otherwise, people will think you are serious.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-09, 12:17 PM
Jolly good show, old chap. Had me going for a minute there, and then I realized, "Oh, wait, it's Thinker."

Yeah, my aside got lost too, but I did catch on. :smalltongue:

Thinker
2008-01-09, 12:21 PM
Let's do some math here... LVL 1 Wizard. Max rank = 4. INT mod of +2 (since you spread casting stats out below). Spellcraft ranks = 6. Said WIZ must roll 10 or higher to cast a 1st level spell, meaning they will fail 50% of the time. Casting a cantrip will fail 45% of the time.

Out of 3 cantrips, they will get 2 off, and will only cast their 1 1st level spell every other day (on average). So an already weak low-level caster becomes even weaker...

17th level WIZ. Max ranks of spellcraft = 20. Spellcraft check to cast a 9th level spell - 21. They will only fail on a roll of 1 - or 5% of the time.

If this is an attempt to gimp high-level casters, it fails horribly.



What about the majority of spells that require a save? Or the spells that require a ranged or melee touch attack?



Do you mean all spells must be melee touch, or standard melee, including armor/shield/natural/dodge AC?) With a 1/2 BAB progression, AC is going to far outstrip what a caster's AB is going to be able to reach.

A succubus (CR 7) has an AC of 20. Full-BAB classes have a BAB of 7, Rogue style have a BAB of 5. Casters have a BAB of 3. In addition, melee and ranged attack types have weapon bonus that can be used to hit. A caster, under your system, is entirely reliant on their BAB and STR. (And since you gave them worse MAD than a Monk, they probably won't have points to put into STR.) In this case, the caster would need a roll of 17 to hit, whereas a well-equiped Fighter or Ranger will hit on 10 (or so), and a Rogue not much higher.

A balor (CR 20) has an AC of 35. Full-BAB has a BAB of 20, Rogue-style has a BAB of 15, and a caster of 10. The Fighter and Rogues are still hitting on a roll of between 10-15. Casters can only hit on a natural 20.

Neither of those examples takes into account that those monsters do have SR. So even if the 20th level caster is lucky enough to hit the balor, they still have to overcome SR 28.



You left off their reliance on STR in order to be able to hit things, giving them worse MAD than a Monk - or any other class.



And meaning they will have no AC, since they can't wear armor. The above mentioned succubus (AB +6) could hit them on a 7, assuming DEX 10 and Bracers of Armor +3.



Which means they will be targetting anytime there is a ranged combatant, since ranged combatants can fire into melee. Whether they choose to or not is a moot point, given the way you phrased that.

Now you are adding a reliance on CON, since that is the ability for Concentration.

More math...

LVL 1 caster, max ranks = 4. CON bonus +1. An archer with a heavy crossbow can do 10 damage. DC check = 25. The caster can only succeed on a natural 20. Even against a dart, the check is 19, meaning they only succeed on a roll of 15 or higher. (I'm not even taking critical hits into account.)

LVL 20 caster, max ranks = 23. CON bonus still +1. Archer with Heavy Crossbow +5 loaded with Bolts of Fire (1d6).
Total max damage = 10+5+6=21. DC=36
Now the caster succeeds on a check of 12 or higher. Still not great odds, but better than above.
Against Flaming Darts +5, the check is 4+5+6 = 15, meaning the caster only fails on a 1.



Even more math...

LVL 1 caster
Heavy crossbow: 10+25=35. Succeed on natural 20 only
Dart: 4+25=29 succeed on natural 20 only.

LVL 20 caster
Heavy crossbow+5 and Flaming bolts: 25+10+5+6=46. Succeed on natural 20 only
Flaming Darts +5: 25+4+5+6=40. Succeed on 16 or higher.



But they only have a limited number of spells/day or spells known. If your SORC knows (say) Identify, then they don't know a spell that could be used in combat. (Not that they are useful in combat anyway, given the way you gimped them, but anyway...) Even a WIZ, who could in theory know every spell, only has a small number that can be cast on any given day. The day could come when they need Identify, but they prepared Mage Armor instead.



There's not that many, so you aren't gaining much here.

OK, and after all that, I see your disclaimer.

Amusing idea, but you need to make the disclaimer visible to anyone. Otherwise, people will think you are serious.

Maybe I'll just edit my OP to take it out of white text :smallsmile: Anyway, I should probably respond to your replies to my "suggestions."

[sarcasm]

It was a DC of spell level + spell level squared. That means the 9th level spell would be a DC of 96, which I thought was fairly unatainable.

I meant the caster had to attack against the MAC, which was just 10 + wisdom modifier + best save. It doesn't include natural armor, deflection, etc. Besides, it means non-full casters (bard, paladin, ranger) are better off than the full ones. They get 3/4 and full BAB, meaning their spells are probably more useful (if they can spare the ranks on spell craft and concentration).

The MAD was intentional. By requiring all stats they are severely gimped and even penalized for their class selection.

Casters shouldn't be in a position where the enemy can see them, let alone target them. If they are they should probably be dead/dying.

By limiting them to effectively just 2 skills they can try to cast spells and do little else, just what the doctor ordered. :smalltongue:



Yeah, my aside got lost too, but I did catch on. :smalltongue:

Haha, sorry I missed your own white text.

Indon
2008-01-09, 12:26 PM
Regarding number 5: You should specify that the spellcraft DC is based off of max damage for an entire full-round attack, rather than just one possible swing. Otherwise, it'd take a horribly gimped spellcaster to have a chance at failing.

Similarly with 1, but since you instituted a 5% chance for auto-failure, I can let that slide. I mean, sure, every caster has a rack of Luck Blades to undo those, and thanks to your introducing strength-based MAD, they're going to have enough strength to carry them all unencumbered (which is why I think that change is a mixed bag, there), but not all caster concepts involve luck-blade-racks, so at least a little optimization is required to do that.

Otherwise, pretty good. By introducing MAD, you may end up causing their highest attribute to drop by 3, maybe even 4 points, which should make all the difference. I can't say your Dex-casting time change is a good idea, since it actually reduces the caster's MAD, when they clearly could use a bit more than you give them.

All told, some solid ideas, if I didn't play with legally retarded children who only roll up basket-weaving kobolds and Evoker specialists, I'd be tempted to use them.

Also parody. Hopefully, even more blatantly than the original post - I'm even using an off-white instead of pure white. I will giggle like a schoolgirl at you if you treat this commentary seriously.

Draz74
2008-01-09, 12:27 PM
Yay for casting Cat's Grace on the enemy Cleric or Bard as a de-buff. :smallconfused: :smallyuk:

warmachine
2008-01-09, 12:50 PM
The magical defence idea, other than being pulled out the author's *** with no analysis, is based on the wrong attribute. CHA represents the ability to influence the environment and other people whereas WIS is for observation, insight and willpower. Also, using CHA raises the importance of the least critical attribute. CHA would stop being the automatic dump stat for classes that don't use CHA in class features.