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hobbitguy1420
2008-01-09, 01:26 PM
I had an interesting idea - How would you folks stat a Dagger of Opposite Alignment? I mean to say, a dagger that, when someone's hit by it, has a chance of affecting their alignment as a Helm of Opposite Alignment would.

It's just an idle fancy, so I'm open to anything from one-use items to charge-per-day items to at-will artifacts.

The Glyphstone
2008-01-09, 08:23 PM
Very expensive base, since Programmed Amnesia (CArc) and Mindrape (BoVD) are the only spells capable of actually changing someone's alignment, and they are both 9th level spells. Actual pricing would depend on the chances of it affecting them and how often it could be used.

bignate
2008-01-10, 09:35 AM
i know it is unbalanced but i believe that there is a 5th level spell in the book of vile darkness called...'morality undone' i think which changes your alignment to evil.

hobbitguy1420
2008-01-10, 09:39 AM
so... what spells are required to make a Helm of Opposite Alignment, as that came out before CArc or BoVD?

mostlyharmful
2008-01-10, 09:39 AM
i know it is unbalanced but i believe that there is a 5th level spell in the book of vile darkness called...'morality undone' i think which changes your alignment to evil.

for a little while...

for flavour and balence you might try a dagger of confusion, every hit adds a low DC chance of confusion effects would be a very nifty rogue item without demolishing the worlds inferstructure.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 11:51 AM
There is also Sanctify the Wicked from BoED.

Gaiwecoor
2008-01-14, 12:12 PM
so... what spells are required to make a Helm of Opposite Alignment, as that came out before CArc or BoVD?

Oddly enough, it looks like there are no specific spells involved. It's a Woundrous Item that just does it.

Anyhow, I'd make some rough estimates, based on the Estimating Magic Item GP Values (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues) table. A helm of opposite alignment costs 4k, for a single use, use-activated spell effect. Using this as a base line, to make a corresponding item that does it whenever it's used (scores a hit) would raise the cost by a factor of 40 - it now costs 160k gold. If you make it a charge per day item, divide that number by five: it costs 32k per charge per day.

Is this entirely unreasonable? Maybe. Maybe not. It's quite a costly item, with a very powerful effect (although it's only a Will DC 15 to negate). Just be careful if you hit the same person twice :smallwink:

[EDIT]This is much cheaper than putting programmed amnesia on the dagger, but it's also not nearly so powerful an effect; it doesn't give you complete access to memories or allow the other options the spell does. On another note, just as a Helm of Opposite Alignment requires a CL 12, this should have at least that, as well. A higher required CL could mean a proportionally higher cost.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-14, 01:08 PM
so... what spells are required to make a Helm of Opposite Alignment, as that came out before CArc or BoVD?

There is no specific spell for a Helm of Opposite Alignment. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#helmofOppositeAlignment)


Ninja'd me and Math.


Using similar calculations and the same guidelines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues)as what I snipped above:

Working backwards from 4,000. 4,000/50*12(caster level) = 6.6666 for spell level. Rounding that up to 7.

7 * 12 * 2,000 = 168,000 gp for such an item. At first glance that seems low, but considering the save DC would remain the same at a mere 15 it seems reasonable.

Person_Man
2008-01-14, 02:20 PM
A better idea might be a Arrow of Charming +1. If struck and damaged with this arrow, the target must make a Will Save (DC 11. This Save includes the situational modifier for being threatened by the caster) or be effected by the Charm Person spell for one hour. If the target is threatened in any way by the initial caster or his allies after being Charmed, the target is entitled to another Saving Throw to break the effect. (8,000ish gp for 50 arrows)

You could also make a dagger or melee weapon with a similar effect, though I'd limit it to 3 times per day or something similar, unless you wanted to make it obnoxiously expensive.

This will have the same in game effect as a Dagger of Opposite Alignment ("My gods, what am I doing. I should be helping these adventurers take down the Evil Overlord!") without the mess of a weird custom item.

blakyoshi7
2008-01-14, 02:32 PM
The title of this thread made me think of a Dagger of Backstabbing that, when you hold it, gives you the urge to betray your allies at the first available opportunity.

I am slightly dissapointed.

KeithTheThinker
2008-01-14, 02:37 PM
The title of this thread made me think of a Dagger of Backstabbing that, when you hold it, gives you the urge to betray your allies at the first available opportunity.

I am slightly dissapointed.
I thought about that at first, too. Or at least attempted to alter the alignment of the wielder, a la the helm.
Although, it would be rather fun to go about reforming the bad guys with a blade.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-14, 02:38 PM
This will have the same in game effect as a Dagger of Opposite Alignment ("My gods, what am I doing. I should be helping these adventurers take down the Evil Overlord!") without the mess of a weird custom item.

Um, I'm not so sure about that. Charm Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm)would make that troublesome. That DC 11 would automatically become a DC 6 (since being hit with an arrow I should think counts as 'threatened or attacked by you or your allies')and it wouldn't make them realize they should be helping you and taking down the evil overlord without making opposed Charisma checks. I should think several of them.

One more note, if one of your allies doesn't realize they failed the save and threatens them or attacks them, the spell would stop working automatically. I could see it working like this.

Minion: I'll kill you!
Archer: I shoot him with an arrow.
Minion: I get a 1... I'm charmed.
Archer's Buddy: I charge with my greatsword!
Minion: I'll kill you!


The title of this thread made me think of a Dagger of Backstabbing that, when you hold it, gives you the urge to betray your allies at the first available opportunity.

I am slightly dissapointed.

Yeah, I thought about Matt's dagger from the Wheel of Time.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 02:41 PM
Um, I'm not so sure about that. Charm Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm)would make that troublesome. That DC 11 would automatically become a DC 6 (since being hit with an arrow I should think counts as 'threatened or attacked by you or your allies')and it wouldn't make them realize they should be helping you and taking down the evil overlord without making opposed Charisma checks. I should think several of them.

I think the Arrow of Charming already takes into account the -4 for being threatened, which is why it's DC 11, and not DC 15.

DC 11 would mean that the caster that created the arrows had an INT no higher than 11. That would make for a really pathetic wizard. It's more likely that the caster had an INT of 18.

Edit 1: Is it -4 or -5 to the DC if you threatened them?
Edit 2: This brings up an interesting point. If you could hit the enemy without them realizing it, would the DC be a 15 or a 16 instead of an 11? I think there is a skill trick that lets you attack someone without them realizing that they were attacked. They are not aware of the damage for one round after the attack. I think it applies only to melee attacks where you use quick draw on a hidden weapon though.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-14, 02:46 PM
I think the Arrow of Charming already takes into account the -4 for being threatened, which is why it's DC 11, and not DC 15.


It would be a effective DC 10 in that case. It's +5 to the save if threatened. That's assuming a Wizard with an Int. of 20 (excluding other bonuses)...

Edit:


Edit 2: This brings up an interesting point. If you could hit the enemy without them realizing it, would the DC be a 15 or a 16 instead of an 11?

I would think not by RAW, since they are still being attacked. Even if it didn't, it seems to me that the next round when they realized it the spell would break.

horseboy
2008-01-14, 02:46 PM
Hmm, well, what are we trying to do with it? Just because that orc is suddenly good doesn't necessarily mean he'll help you. After all, you did just invade his home and stick him with a dagger. Not to mention the whole "forcing your morality on others" of "making" him be a "good" person. I'm not really sure what effect you're looking for.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 02:50 PM
Hmm, well, what are we trying to do with it? Just because that orc is suddenly good doesn't necessarily mean he'll help you. After all, you did just invade his home and stick him with a dagger. Not to mention the whole "forcing your morality on others" of "making" him be a "good" person. I'm not really sure what effect you're looking for.

Usually, a charmed creature will just immediately start considering the charmer a "nice guy". He'll do whatever he can to stop the fight without his real friends getting hurt, and without the charmer getting hurt.

He wouldn't attack his friends, but he might start trying to disarm people. He'll probably also start trying to make rushed diplomacy checks.

"Hey guys! What are we doing? Can't we talk about this! The dude in the robes is such a nice guy! His friends are no good, but let's just stop and have a beer. We can figure this out! Please!"

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-14, 02:52 PM
Also, is there a way to raise the save? I wold love to use a helm to convert a BBEG, but it's only DC15. :smallmad: Can I change that to 30 easily?

Swooper
2008-01-14, 03:20 PM
I think the Arrow of Charming already takes into account the -4 for being threatened, which is why it's DC 11, and not DC 15.

DC 11 would mean that the caster that created the arrows had an INT no higher than 11. That would make for a really pathetic wizard. It's more likely that the caster had an INT of 18.

Edit 1: Is it -4 or -5 to the DC if you threatened them?
Edit 2: This brings up an interesting point. If you could hit the enemy without them realizing it, would the DC be a 15 or a 16 instead of an 11? I think there is a skill trick that lets you attack someone without them realizing that they were attacked. They are not aware of the damage for one round after the attack. I think it applies only to melee attacks where you use quick draw on a hidden weapon though.
I thought magic items always assumed the caster had the minimum casting stat required to cast the spells needed to make the item?

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-14, 03:21 PM
There is an easy way to change the DC, but it involves major bucks. Standard magic items assume that everything is at minimum CL, therefore the Arrow of Charming actually ASSUMES that the caster only had an INT of 11 because that is all that is required to cast the spell. you can however pay the extra to get a higher CL, but it is still assumed that the caster has an INT of 11 because that is all that is required to cast Charm person.

Now take that and apply it to whatever spell you had in mind. If the spell is 5th level, assume the caster has a 15 Int, minimum to cast the spell. That's why som many items have such a low save DC.

Off Topic: For those who craft magical traps the same is true. An Energy Drain trap is a 9th level spell, but the touch attack roll is only +8. That is the minimum BAB for a caster that can cast that 9th level spell. There is no Dex modifier, because it isn't neccesary to cast the spell.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-14, 03:36 PM
Wow, did I say all that?

There is no way (under current rules) to boost the DC of magic items. I gave a recipe for getting more level dependant abilities out of an item, but none of that actually raises the DC

I got so wrapped up in my answer I forgot the question.

A Dagger of Opposite Alignment should be a cursed item, possible with a CN intelligence. Just a thought...

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 03:51 PM
There is no way (under current rules) to boost the DC of magic items. I gave a recipe for getting more level dependant abilities out of an item, but none of that actually raises the DC

I guess the exception to what you just said, is that the player could get the Craft Wonderous Item feat. Then the item would be created at his level and caster level, even if it is not the minimum required for the actual item.