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View Full Version : ToB-style Chaplain for your critique



Archetype-
2008-01-09, 10:16 PM
Before I get started on the meat of this post, I humbly suggest that those unfamiliar with the Chaplain read up on them here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Marines_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29#Chaplains) . It's short, but it should help. This is what I'd like my character to eventually become, though he'll simply start out as an ordinary battle brother and work his way up from there.

Now, this is my first time making a character with a core class from ToB. The closest I've come are a couple Cleric-zillas and miscellaneous fighter-types. I think I know what I'm doing, but I'd like to get your opinions on my initial build here. We normally start at an ECL of 3-5, but I'll draw him out here at 6th level so you can get an idea of how I'd like him to progress. I'll keep a copy of a 3rd level version of him for my own records.

EDIT: I just want to say that none of this has been committed to paper yet. Until everything's all good to go, he'll be in a nice little WordPad file.

Creation Guidelines

Books Available: Core, all Complete books save Mage and Psion (I don't have them), Unearthed Arcana, PHB2, Arms & Equipment Guide, Races of Destiny/Stone/the Wild/the Dragon, ToB,
Stats: 4d6, discard low die, roll seven times and drop lowest sum (so I'll be rolling 4d6 seven times and ignoring the lowest roll)
Feats/Skills/Equipment: Pretty much whatever's in the above books, but I like to keep it as Core as possible.

Current Character

Race: Human
Stats: Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 15
Level Build: Crusader 6
Feats:

Human: Improved Initiative
1st (1st level): Power Attack
2nd (3rd level): White Raven Defense
3rd (6th level): Cleave

Stances and Maneuvers

1st: Crusader Strike, Leading the Attack, Vanguard Strike, Stone Bones, Douse the Flames, Bolstering Voice
2nd: Martial Spirit
3rd: Foehammer
4th:
5th: White Raven Tactics
6th:

Skills: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Martial Lore, Knowledge (religion), Listen (cc), Spot (cc)

Notes

-I chose Foehammer over Mountain Hammer because I only expect to use the maneuver in combat. Locked doors always tend to fall the the party skill monkey to “take care of,” and I don't like stepping on the toes of others.

-I'm aiming to have Clarion Commander 9th level. I like the group benefits it offers, and it fits the flavor I think.

-I originally wanted to have him wield a warmace (CW page 154 for stats, 158 for description), but I figure I'll go with a warhammer and shield instead to reap the fullest benefits of White Raven Defense.

-This is a combination of party support and Emperor-blessed melee smackdown, each of which will come into their own once I get access to the mid-level and higher White Raven Devoted Spirit stuff. Stone Bones is there on its own because I couldn't think of anything else to pick for the last 1st-level maneuver I get at level 1.

Requests

I'm basically looking for input to make him both tactically sound and fit the theme. I'll optimize enough to make sure he does well, but not to the point where he betrays his original concept.

A couple other things I need to mention. Firstly, parties around here generally have at least two PCs that end up in melee in round one, or round two at the latest (that's provided a clear line of effect for a charge. One friend of mine in particular tends towards the tanking types, and I have yet to personally see him take levels in anything other than Fighter, Barbarian, or Cleric (PrCs aside). Secondly, no one really powergames around here. It's generally frowned upon around here, and one former member of our gaming circle is not missed because he was well-known for powergaming at everything he could. So no Batmen to say the least

That just about wraps up my thoughts. If any of you have any questions/comments/concerns/complaints/suggestions, let them be known.

Peace out,
- Archetype-

Chronicled
2008-01-09, 10:19 PM
You're a Crusader. You should have Extra Granted Maneuver (instead of, say, Improved Initiative), and Stone Power (instead of White Raven Defense or Cleave). Extra Granted Maneuver will give you a lot more flexibility, while Stone Power will work with your delayed damage pool to keep you on your feet all day.

Neither of these conflicts with your idea, nor should they be frowned upon by your group.

Make sure to get the stance Thicket of Blades if you want to safeguard your friends.

Archetype-
2008-01-10, 12:19 AM
I see I was right to get this critiqued. Glad I haven't committed any of this to paper yet. I should probably put that in the original post so it's clear.


You should have Extra Granted Maneuver (instead of, say, Improved Initiative), and Stone Power (instead of White Raven Defense or Cleave). Extra Granted Maneuver will give you a lot more flexibility, while Stone Power will work with your delayed damage pool to keep you on your feet all day.

In all honesty, I chose Improved Initiative because I couldn't think of what else to take. When I'm stuck on what feat to give a character, that and a few other feats (e.g Improved Toughness, Quick Draw) generally seem to show up on my sheet. As for Stone Power, that was a case of me skimming the feats table on page 30 of ToB and not noticing it. Now this little voice in my head is saying, “Oh, durr. That actually makes much more sense.”


Make sure to get the stance Thicket of Blades if you want to safeguard your friends.

Already on the menu for 8th level. I must say it looks very tasty. I just hope it comes with pie.


Now, a couple questions. Firstly, one concerning Devoted Bulwark. I know the additional +1 morale bonus to AC ain't gonna help all that much, and it requires getting hit to trigger (I know, I should be taking the hits and occasionally patching them up anyways). Is it honestly worth taking to grab Faith Unswerving and it's options later on? Secondly, since I'll be swapping out White Raven Defense for Stone Power, should I swap Power Attack for something else (like Improved Toughness or Martial Stance) as I can just use Stone Power qualify for feats that require Power Attack?

I apologize if I came off as a little hostile towards the next-to-last paragraph there. I've just had some much-less-than-fun moments when munchkins join the party I'm in. I thank you for your patience.

Peace out,
- Archetype-

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-10, 12:22 AM
In all honesty, I chose Improved Initiative because I couldn't think of what else to take.

Well Extra Granted gives you 3 granted maneuvers a level. And since you never run out of maneuvers, it synergies better than Improved Initiative.

Chronicled
2008-01-10, 12:38 AM
Now, a couple questions. Firstly, one concerning Devoted Bulwark. I know the additional +1 morale bonus to AC ain't gonna help all that much, and it requires getting hit to trigger (I know, I should be taking the hits and occasionally patching them up anyways). Is it honestly worth taking to grab Faith Unswerving and it's options later on? Secondly, since I'll be swapping out White Raven Defense for Stone Power, should I swap Power Attack for something else (like Improved Toughness or Martial Stance) as I can just use Stone Power qualify for feats that require Power Attack?

I apologize if I came off as a little hostile towards the next-to-last paragraph there. I've just had some much-less-than-fun moments when munchkins join the party I'm in. I thank you for your patience.

Faith Unswerving is good; more options are always valuable, and those options can prove very helpful. Whether it's worth the Devoted Bulwark is debatable, especially in a feat-hungry build.

I'd recommend keeping both Power Attack and Stone Power. There will be times when you want to have temporary hit points to soak up damage, and there will be times when you need to down an enemy as fast as possible.

I'd also recommend a reach weapon, probably a glaive, once you get Thicket of Blades, then grabbing some spiked gauntlets or armor as close-range backup.

Archetype-
2008-01-10, 01:26 AM
Faith Unswerving is good; more options are always valuable, and those options can prove very helpful. Whether it's worth the Devoted Bulwark is debatable, especially in a feat-hungry build.

Too true, and in the end I only have eight to work with. I'll probably end up taking them both anyways. Devoted Bulwark will be nigh useless at later levels, but Faith Unswerving just looks like sheer rock-i-tude.


I'd recommend keeping both Power Attack and Stone Power. There will be times when you want to have temporary hit points to soak up damage, and there will be times when you need to down an enemy as fast as possible.

I'll readily I've had much fun with Power Attack. From a Leap Attacking Elven gish, to smashing the weapons of baddies (roleplaying on my part, as the character thought such evil items shouldn't be available to anyone), to opening chests and doors in NWN, I never ran out of uses or love for that feat. They both stay.


I'd also recommend a reach weapon, probably a glaive, once you get Thicket of Blades, then grabbing some spiked gauntlets or armor as close-range backup.

I will admit I questioned this for a moment. The Crozius Arcanum (think really really shiny mace) is generally both the weapon of choice and badge of office for Chaplains. Then I did some reading. See, in the old Dark Angels codex there was a special character called Interrogator-Chaplain Asmodai. He didn't have a Crozius Arcanum, dual-wielded power swords. And besides, PCs bend the rules all the time. I was half-considering taking the Short Haft feat, but two of my remaining four feats are already spoken for. Punching something with a spiky fist should work just fine. The Emperor doesn't care how his enemies are smote, just that they get smote without resorting to heretical means (basically forbidden sorceries and/or associating with evil outsiders).

Peace out,
- Archetype-

Talic
2008-01-10, 02:18 AM
Well, here's a few things to consider...

First, power weapon in WH40k seems to be a bit similar to all the bonuses of Brilliant Energy, and none of the drawbacks. Perhaps a compromise such as Adamantine. Since power weapons bypass most forms of 40k protection, focus on the same for your weapon. +1, Adamantine, holy, and thundering would be good adds (bypass DR for magic, adamantine, and good, along with extra damage to objects, and the cool impact sound effect humming)

I'd also include a few "rally the troops" abilities, to reflect the leadership aspects of the Chaplain.

Kizara
2008-01-10, 03:32 AM
Why not just go cleric? Alot of the chaplain concept can be replicated by cleric spells and abilities.

Maybe paladin 3 first for immunity to fear and more resiliance.

Telok
2008-01-10, 12:12 PM
Why not just go cleric? Alot of the chaplain concept can be replicated by cleric spells and abilities.

In 40K as long as the priest keeps a smitin', the power keeps a comin'. Because 40K priests don't wimp out half way through a fight whining about spell slots and needing to rest.

Archetype-
2008-01-10, 12:23 PM
Righty, I see I have a few things to address here.


First, power weapon in WH40k seems to be a bit similar to all the bonuses of Brilliant Energy, and none of the drawbacks. Perhaps a compromise such as Adamantine. Since power weapons bypass most forms of 40k protection, focus on the same for your weapon. +1, Adamantine, holy, and thundering would be good adds (bypass DR for magic, adamantine, and good, along with extra damage to objects, and the cool impact sound effect humming)

I have put some consideration towards that, and that does seem fitting for pretty much any power weapon (save holy, which kind of fits the Crozius and definitely fits some of the weapons wielded by the Ordos Malleus and Hereticus). Ultimately, that will have to be something I discuss with whoever ends up being my DM. The Crozius Arcanum and Rosarius are presented to the Chaplain by the Chapter when he obtains that position, not bought from a smithy or found in a dragon's hoard.


I'd also include a few "rally the troops" abilities, to reflect the leadership aspects of the Chaplain.

I actually took that into consideration when I was thinking what would fit the concept best. Speaking of which, that brings me to this...


Why not just go cleric? Alot of the chaplain concept can be replicated by cleric spells and abilities.

The cleric was actually the first class I thought of for this build. “Yeah, he's a warrior-priest. Seems fitting,” I thought. “Ah, but he's a spellcaster.” That pretty much ended it. Chaplains are not what the Space Marines call upon for spellcaster support. That's the duty of the Librarians, and they're more like a psychic warrior.

Ah, and as I was typing this post up in Open Office, this was posted:


In 40K as long as the priest keeps a smitin', the power keeps a comin'. Because 40K priests don't wimp out half way through a fight whining about spell slots and needing to rest.

Indeed, there is no rest for the truly righteous. You fight and you die for your Emperor. The recharge mechanic of the Crusader played a role in my decision as well. You, good sir, take an Imperial Eagle cookie.


Maybe paladin 3 first for immunity to fear and more resiliance.

Chaplains don't just ward off fear, they boost the fighting efficiency of their brothers. They have a fairly strict code of conduct, but it pretty much boils down to “defend your fellow man, smite all those who would bring their destruction in the name of the Emperor.” They don't need to tread on eggshell-filled minefields so they can keep their abilities, they're always there for him to use come hell or null magic.

Don't get me wrong here. I have nothing against the Paladin or the Cleric, I really like them. I just believe that the Crusader fits the concept better than the Cleric or Paladin do. I appreciate the input.

Peace out,
- Archetype-