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Draco Ignifer
2008-01-10, 01:11 AM
I was debating whether or not this went in homebrew, but since this is just a standard monster made with the Rules as Written (just check the SRD - all of this is in there, if under the epic rules). If this is the wrong place, then movement is not a problem.

So, we start with a Legendary Tiger, advance it to 48 hit dice, and give it the Paragon template for fun.

Paragon Legendary Tiger
Large Animal
HD 48 (1632)
Speed 150 ft.
Init: +15 (+11 dex, +4 improved initiative)
AC 56; touch 46; flat-footed 45 (-1 size, +11 dex, +10 natural, +12 insight, +12 luck))
BAB +36; Grp +83 (+36 +18 strength +4 size +25 luck)
Attack Claw +78 (2d8x2 + 38 (+18 strength +20 luck)
Full-Attack 2 claws +78 (2d8x2 + 38 (+18 strength +20 luck), bite +73 (2d8x2 + 29 (+9 strength +20 luck)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake 2d6+29, Greater Dispel Magic 3x/day (CL 15), Haste 3x/day (CL 15), See Invisiblity 3x/day (CL 15)
Pounce (Ex): If a legendary tiger leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the legendary tiger must hit with a bite attack. If it gets a hold, it can rake.
Rake (Ex): A legendary tiger can make two attacks (+79 melee) against a held creature with its hind legs for 2d6+29 points of damage each. If the legendary tiger pounces on an opponent, it can also rake.
Special Qualities Scent, Fire Resistance 10, Cold Resistance 10, Spell Resistance 57, DR 10/Epic, Fast Healing 20.
Saves Fort +50 (+26 base), Ref +47 (+26 base) Will +35 (+16 base)
Abilities Str 47, Dex 33, Con 39, Int 17, Wis 29, Cha 25
Skills Not important right now.
Feats Alertness, Athletic, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Run, Toughness (×2), Track, 9 others unchosen (8 from advancement, 1 bonus Paragon)
Environment Any land and underground
Organization Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating 32
Treasure Standard
Alignment TN
Advancement As advanced as it's going to get.
Level Adjustment No.

Big cat, but for that CR? Not much of a threat, really. But note that type - Paragons are still animals. That's right... one of these can be the base creature for a lycanthrope.

Hapless Fighter
Humanoid (human)
HD 4d10 (30)
Speed 30 ft.
Init: +2
AC 12 / 12 touch / 10 flat-footed (+2 dex)
BAB +4; Grp +6
Attack Sword +6 (1d8 19-20x2 +2)
Full-Attack Sword +6 (1d8 19-20x2 +2)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks None
Special Qualities None
Saves Fort +5 (+4 base), Ref +3 (+1 base) Will +1 (+1 base)
Abilities Str 16 (+1), Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills Not important right now.
Feats Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, 2 unchosen.
Environment Any land and underground
Organization Adventuring Party
Challenge Rating 4
Treasure PC
Alignment NG
Advancement By level
Level Adjustment 0

So, what does a werecreature get us? First, hit dice are equal to the added hit dice of the two forms. Speed is equal to the chosen form's, except that the hybrid's is equal to the base creature. Armor, sadly, is only +2 to natural armor, which means that there's no keeping those luck or insight bonuses. Base attack is equal to the sum total of the base attacks, but grapple is just that of the base attack plus its current size modifier and strength modifier, so it's back down to something more standard. However, it says that the attacks in animal form ARE equal to that of the base animal, as is the damage. More interestingly, it retains all special attacks in animal form, but just animal form, but ALL special qualities. When transformed into animal or hybrid form, it also retains its physical ability score bonuses - including the +15 from Paragon status, and 12 new ability points to allocate for suddenly gaining 48 hit dice. It also gets 48 new skill points times intelligence bonus plus two, and adds all the feats of its base creature - who, being a Paragon, had a WIDE selection of nine new feats. Oh, and Iron Will, but it had that. But I'm saving the best for last. So, put the two together, and we get...

Were-Paragon Legendary Tiger
Medium Humanoid (Human, Shapeshifter) / Large Humanoid (Human, Shapeshifter) / Large Humanoid (Human, Shapeshifter)
HD 48d8 + 4d10 (1672) (Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal)
Speed 30 ft. / 150 ft. / 30 ft.
Init: +6 / +15 (+2/+11 dex, +4 improved initiative)
AC 14/32/32; touch 12/20/20; flat-footed 12/21/21
(-1 size, +11 dex, +12 natural - nothing says we keep the luck or insight)
BAB +36; Grp +39/+58/+58(+36 base +3/+18 strength +0/+4 size - grapple bonus is explicitly calculated based on the new base plus strength and size bonuses)
Attack Sword +36 (1d8 19-20x2 +3) / Claw +78 (2d8x2 + 38 (+18 strength +20 luck - says same as the base animal) / Claw +53 (1d8x2 +18)
Full-Attack Sword +36/+31/+26/+21 / 2 claws +78 (2d8x2 + 38 (+18 strength +20 luck), bite +73 (2d8x2 + 29 (+9 strength +20 luck) / 2 claw +53 (1d8x2 +18), bite +48 (2d6x2 +9)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake 2d6+29, Greater Dispel Magic 3x/day (CL 15), Haste 3x/day (CL 15), See Invisiblity 3x/day (CL 15), but only in Tiger form - retains base special attacks, does not gain animal special attacks in hybrid. Also, Curse of Lycanthropy in animal and hybrid
Special Qualities Scent, Fire Resistance 10, Cold Resistance 10, Spell Resistance 57, DR 10/Epic (and 5/silver in animal/hybrid forms), Fast Healing 20, Alternate Form, Lycanthropic Empathy, Low-Light Vision
Saves Fort +31/+46 (+30 base), Ref +29/+40 (+27 base), Will +22/+22 (+17 base)
Abilities Str 16/52 Dex 14/36, Con 13/41, Int 16 (4 bonus allocated here), Wis 16 (4 bonus allocated here), Cha 12 (4 bonus allocated here)
Skills 45 ranks in spot, listen, hide, move silently, and jump (from the tiger), 7 ranks in Climb, Intimidate, Handle Animal, and Swim (from the fighter), 14 ranks of control form (14 from the tiger, 7 from the fighter), 8 ranks in survival
Feats Alertness, Athletic, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Run, Toughness (×2), Track, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, 11 unchosen
Environment Your nightmares
Organization Solitary
Challenge Rating 10!
Treasure Standard
Alignment Whatever hurts the most.
Advancement Just wait
Level Adjustment Very No.

Please do note that most important point. This thing's CR is 10. Why? Because lycanthropes have a challenge rating equal to the base creature (level 4 fighter = 4) plus a certain number per hit die of the animal - up to a maximum of +6. Since an advanced paragon legendary tiger is an animal, and since it has 48 hit dice, it gets that +6 to CR.

And now, just for more ridiculousness, we turn it into a pseudonatural monstrosity as well. Why? Because we can. And because it hurts you.

Chosen form highlighted for your convenience when there are multiple
Pseudonatural Were-Paragon Legendary Tiger
Medium Outsider (Extraplanar) / Large Outsider (Extraplanar) / Large Outsider (Extraplanar)
HD 48d8 + 4d10 (1936)
Speed 60 ft. / 300 ft. / 60 ft.
Init: +11 / +20 (+7/+16 dex, +4 improved initiative)
AC 52/60/60; touch 17/25/25; flat-footed 45/44/44
(-1 size, +7/+16 dex, +35 natural)
BAB +36; Grp +65/+84/+84(+36 base +14/+29 strength +0/+4 size)
Attack Sword +65 (1d8 19-20x2 +14) / Claw +104 (2d8x2 + 49) / Claw +79 (1d8x2 +29) OR Tentacle[/COLOR} +65/[COLOR="Blue"]+78/+78 (2d8x2 +14/+32/+32)
Full-Attack Sword +65/+60/+55/+50 (1d8 19-20x2 +14) / 2 claws +89 (2d8x2 + 49), bite +84 (2d8x2 + 33) / 2 claw +78 (1d8x2 +32), bite +73 (2d6x2 +16) OR 13/16/16 tentacle +65/+78/+78 (2d8x2 +14/+32/+32).
Space 5/10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Pounce, Improved Grab (bite, Rake 2d6+29, Greater Dispel Magic 3x/day (CL 15), Haste 3x/day (CL 15), See Invisiblity 3x/day (CL 15), but only in Tiger form. Also, Curse of Lycanthropy in animal and hybrid. In all forms, improved grab (tentacle), constant insight, rotting constriction (2d4 con drain to constricted targets, recover 10 hp), blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow at will - CL 20.
Special Qualities Scent, Fire Resistance 10, Cold Resistance 10, Acid Resistance 75, Electricity Resistance 75, Spell Resistance 260, DR 15/Epic (and 5/silver in animal/hybrid forms), Fast Healing 20, Alternate Form, Lycanthropic Empathy, Low-Light Vision
Saves Fort +36/+51 (+30 base), Ref +34/+45 (+27 base), Will +27/+27 (+17 base)
Abilities Str 38/74 Dex 24/46, Con 23/51, Int 16, Wis 26, Cha 12
Skills 45 ranks in spot, listen, hide, move silently, and jump (from the tiger), 7 ranks in Climb, Intimidate, Handle Animal, and Swim (from the fighter), 14 ranks of control form (14 from the tiger, 7 from the fighter), 8 ranks in survival
Feats Alertness, Athletic, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Run, Toughness (×2), Track, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Quicken Spell-like abiity (Dimension Door), 10 unchosen
Environment Your nightmares
Organization Solitary
Challenge Rating 20!!
Treasure Standard
Alignment Whatever hurts the most.
Advancement I don't think so.
Level Adjustment Very VERY No.

Please, again, note the CR. 20 - an even match for a level 20 character, according to the rules. And just think... this thing is core-only, and still has 10 unchosen feats. 9 of which would have been chosen by the base animal.

So, I think there was a crab strutting his stuff somewhere over there?

Bassetking
2008-01-10, 01:28 AM
I was debating whether or not this went in homebrew, but since this is just a standard monster made with the Rules as Written (just check the SRD - all of this is in there, if under the epic rules). If this is the wrong place, then movement is not a problem.

So, your PCs we start with a Legendary Tiger, advance it to 48 hit dice, and give it the Paragon template for fun.

Paragon Legendary Tiger
Large Animal
HD 48 (1632)
Speed 150 ft.
Init: +15 (+11 dex, +4 improved initiative)
AC 56; touch 46; flat-footed 45 (-1 size, +11 dex, +10 natural, +12 insight, +12 luck))
BAB +36; Grp +83 (+36 +18 strength +4 size +25 luck)
Attack Claw +78 (2d8x2 + 38 (+18 strength +20 luck)
Full-Attack 2 claws +78 (2d8x2 + 38 (+18 strength +20 luck), bite +73 (2d8x2 + 29 (+9 strength +20 luck)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake 2d6+29, Greater Dispel Magic 3x/day (CL 15), Haste 3x/day (CL 15), See Invisiblity 3x/day (CL 15)
Pounce (Ex): If a legendary tiger leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the legendary tiger must hit with a bite attack. If it gets a hold, it can rake.
Rake (Ex): A legendary tiger can make two attacks (+79 melee) against a held creature with its hind legs for 2d6+29 points of damage each. If the legendary tiger pounces on an opponent, it can also rake.
Special Qualities Scent, Fire Resistance 10, Cold Resistance 10, Spell Resistance 57, DR 10/Epic, Fast Healing 20.
Saves Fort +50 (+26 base), Ref +47 (+26 base) Will +35 (+16 base)
Abilities Str 47, Dex 33, Con 39, Int 17, Wis 29, Cha 25
Skills Not important right now.
Feats Alertness, Athletic, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Run, Toughness (×2), Track, 9 others unchosen (8 from advancement, 1 bonus Paragon)
Environment Any land and underground
Organization Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating 32
Treasure Standard
Alignment TN
Advancement As advanced as it's going to get.
Level Adjustment No.

Big cat, but for that CR? Not much of a threat, really. But note that type - Paragons are still animals. That's right... one of these can be the base creature for a lycanthrope.

Hapless Fighter
Humanoid (human)
HD 4d10 (30)
Speed 30 ft.
Init: +2
AC 12 / 12 touch / 10 flat-footed (+2 dex)
BAB +4; Grp +6
Attack Sword +6 (1d8 19-20x2 +2)
Full-Attack Sword +6 (1d8 19-20x2 +2)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks None
Special Qualities None
Saves Fort +5 (+4 base), Ref +3 (+1 base) Will +1 (+1 base)
Abilities Str 16 (+1), Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills Not important right now.
Feats Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, 2 unchosen.
Environment Any land and underground
Organization Adventuring Party
Challenge Rating 4
Treasure PC
Alignment NG
Advancement By level
Level Adjustment 0

So, what does a werecreature get us? First, hit dice are equal to the added hit dice of the two forms. Speed is equal to the chosen form's, except that the hybrid's is equal to the base creature. Armor, sadly, is only +2 to natural armor, which means that there's no keeping those luck or insight bonuses. Base attack is equal to the sum total of the base attacks, but grapple is just that of the base attack plus its current size modifier and strength modifier, so it's back down to something more standard. However, it says that the attacks in animal form ARE equal to that of the base animal, as is the damage. More interestingly, it retains all special attacks in animal form, but just animal form, but ALL special qualities. When transformed into animal or hybrid form, it also retains its physical ability score bonuses - including the +15 from Paragon status, and 12 new ability points to allocate for suddenly gaining 48 hit dice. It also gets 48 new skill points times intelligence bonus plus two, and adds all the feats of its base creature - who, being a Paragon, had a WIDE selection of nine new feats. Oh, and Iron Will, but it had that. But I'm saving the best for last. So, put the two together, and we get...

Were-Paragon Legendary Tiger
Medium Humanoid (Human, Shapeshifter) / Large Humanoid (Human, Shapeshifter) / Large Humanoid (Human, Shapeshifter)
HD 48d8 + 4d10 (1672) (Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal)
Speed 30 ft. / 150 ft. / 30 ft.
Init: +6 / +15 (+2/+11 dex, +4 improved initiative)
AC 14/32/32; touch 12/20/20; flat-footed 12/21/21
(-1 size, +11 dex, +12 natural - nothing says we keep the luck or insight)
BAB +36; Grp +39/+58/+58(+36 base +3/+18 strength +0/+4 size - grapple bonus is explicitly calculated based on the new base plus strength and size bonuses)
Attack Sword +36 (1d8 19-20x2 +3) / Claw +78 (2d8x2 + 38 (+18 strength +20 luck - says same as the base animal) / Claw +53 (1d8x2 +18)
Full-Attack Sword +36/+31/+26/+21 / 2 claws +78 (2d8x2 + 38 (+18 strength +20 luck), bite +73 (2d8x2 + 29 (+9 strength +20 luck) / 2 claw +53 (1d8x2 +18), bite +48 (2d6x2 +9)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake 2d6+29, Greater Dispel Magic 3x/day (CL 15), Haste 3x/day (CL 15), See Invisiblity 3x/day (CL 15), but only in Tiger form - retains base special attacks, does not gain animal special attacks in hybrid. Also, Curse of Lycanthropy in animal and hybrid
Special Qualities Scent, Fire Resistance 10, Cold Resistance 10, Spell Resistance 57, DR 10/Epic (and 5/silver in animal/hybrid forms), Fast Healing 20, Alternate Form, Lycanthropic Empathy, Low-Light Vision
Saves Fort +31/+46 (+30 base), Ref +29/+40 (+27 base), Will +22/+22 (+17 base)
Abilities Str 16/52 Dex 14/36, Con 13/41, Int 16 (4 bonus allocated here), Wis 16 (4 bonus allocated here), Cha 12 (4 bonus allocated here)
Skills 45 ranks in spot, listen, hide, move silently, and jump (from the tiger), 7 ranks in Climb, Intimidate, Handle Animal, and Swim (from the fighter), 14 ranks of control form (14 from the tiger, 7 from the fighter), 8 ranks in survival
Feats Alertness, Athletic, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Run, Toughness (×2), Track, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, 11 unchosen
Environment Your nightmares
Organization Solitary
Challenge Rating 10!
Treasure Standard
Alignment Whatever hurts the most.
Advancement Just wait
Level Adjustment Very No.

Please do note that most important point. This thing's CR is 10. Why? Because lycanthropes have a challenge rating equal to the base creature (level 4 fighter = 4) plus a certain number per hit die of the animal - up to a maximum of +6. Since an advanced paragon legendary tiger is an animal, and since it has 48 hit dice, it gets that +6 to CR.

And now, just for more ridiculousness, we turn it into a pseudonatural monstrosity as well. Why? Because we can. And because it hurts you.

Chosen form highlighted for your convenience when there are multiple
Pseudonatural Were-Paragon Legendary Tiger
Medium Outsider (Extraplanar) / Large Outsider (Extraplanar) / Large Outsider (Extraplanar)
HD 48d8 + 4d10 (1936)
Speed 60 ft. / 300 ft. / 60 ft.
Init: +11 / +20 (+7/+16 dex, +4 improved initiative)
AC 52/60/60; touch 17/25/25; flat-footed 45/44/44
(-1 size, +7/+16 dex, +35 natural)
BAB +36; Grp +65/+84/+84(+36 base +14/+29 strength +0/+4 size)
Attack Sword +65 (1d8 19-20x2 +14) / Claw +104 (2d8x2 + 49) / Claw +79 (1d8x2 +29) OR Tentacle[/COLOR} +65/[COLOR="Blue"]+78/+78 (2d8x2 +14/+32/+32)
Full-Attack Sword +65/+60/+55/+50 (1d8 19-20x2 +14) / 2 claws +89 (2d8x2 + 49), bite +84 (2d8x2 + 33) / 2 claw +78 (1d8x2 +32), bite +73 (2d6x2 +16) OR 13/16/16 tentacle +65/+78/+78 (2d8x2 +14/+32/+32).
Space 5/10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Pounce, Improved Grab (bite, Rake 2d6+29, Greater Dispel Magic 3x/day (CL 15), Haste 3x/day (CL 15), See Invisiblity 3x/day (CL 15), but only in Tiger form. Also, Curse of Lycanthropy in animal and hybrid. In all forms, improved grab (tentacle), constant insight, rotting constriction (2d4 con drain to constricted targets, recover 10 hp), blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow at will - CL 20.
Special Qualities Scent, Fire Resistance 10, Cold Resistance 10, Acid Resistance 75, Electricity Resistance 75, Spell Resistance 260, DR 15/Epic (and 5/silver in animal/hybrid forms), Fast Healing 20, Alternate Form, Lycanthropic Empathy, Low-Light Vision
Saves Fort +36/+51 (+30 base), Ref +34/+45 (+27 base), Will +27/+27 (+17 base)
Abilities Str 38/74 Dex 24/46, Con 23/51, Int 16, Wis 26, Cha 12
Skills 45 ranks in spot, listen, hide, move silently, and jump (from the tiger), 7 ranks in Climb, Intimidate, Handle Animal, and Swim (from the fighter), 14 ranks of control form (14 from the tiger, 7 from the fighter), 8 ranks in survival
Feats Alertness, Athletic, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Run, Toughness (×2), Track, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Quicken Spell-like abiity (Dimension Door), 10 unchosen
Environment Your nightmares
Organization Solitary
Challenge Rating 20!!
Treasure Standard
Alignment Whatever hurts the most.
Advancement I don't think so.
Level Adjustment Very VERY No.

Please, again, note the CR. 20 - an even match for a level 20 character, according to the rules. And just think... this thing is core-only, and still has 10 unchosen feats. 9 of which would have been chosen by the base animal.

So, I think there was a crab strutting his stuff somewhere over there?

En Garde, félin. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301&highlight=Paragon+Crab)

Talic
2008-01-10, 01:36 AM
En Garde, félin. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301&highlight=Paragon+Crab)

I dunno... You could add 13 levels of ToB Monk type, along with changing the 4 fighter levels to ToB, and it'd be CR 33, with 17 levels of ToB maneuvers, something like 4x the HP, insane SR, better movement, and the like. I think that the crab would get eaten.

Frosty
2008-01-10, 01:38 AM
.... :smalleek:

the stat blocks are too much for me to read. Which one is stronger: The crab or the feline?

Talic
2008-01-10, 01:40 AM
.... :smalleek:

the stat blocks are too much for me to read. Which one is stronger: The crab or the feline?

Both have fast healing and DR, but the tiger's got many more HP's, better int and feat selection, and pounce. Plus, the tiger can take shock trooper.

SoD
2008-01-10, 01:42 AM
The Crab has my undying support! Sorry, but a giant cat doesn't do it for me...maybe if it was an oyster? I remember one episode of Dungeon (or was it Dragon?) where the cover boasted feindish oysters! I was so excited! And what did these feindish oysters do? The players go in, and take the feindish pearls and go off and sell them. The damn oysters didn't even react!

Talic
2008-01-10, 01:44 AM
The Crab has my undying support! Sorry, but a giant cat doesn't do it for me...maybe if it was an oyster? I remember one episode of Dungeon (or was it Dragon?) where the cover boasted feindish oysters! I was so excited! And what did these feindish oysters do? The players go in, and take the feindish pearls and go off and sell them. The damn oysters didn't even react!
Crab may be cooler, but that cat will wreck its shop in combat.

Draco Ignifer
2008-01-10, 01:44 AM
ToB actually is something I considered and rejected, because there's a rule I'm not sure of. Mainly, would Lycanthrope hit dice be considered levels when adding half of them to manifester level? That, and this fellow is core-only.

Now that I see the crab, by the way, he doesn't even need that. 45 move silently and hide, +8 for racial bonuses (legendary tiger), +18 for the dexterity, means that it has at worst a 72, meaning it always sneaks up on its prey. If not, it usually wins initiative anyway. Then it pounces, easily hitting the Crab's flat-footed AC of 70, and proceeds to serve it a nice spaghetti breakfast for 656 damage, on average. Not including the two rake attacks.

Next meal/

Talic
2008-01-10, 01:48 AM
ToB actually is something I considered and rejected, because there's a rule I'm not sure of. Mainly, would Lycanthrope hit dice be considered levels when adding half of them to manifester level? That, and this fellow is core-only.

No, and No. Racial HD are ECL, yes, but they are not CR. They would not count, although they would add to manifester level. Thus, you'd be a level 41 manifester, heh.
Also, this isn't core, as the paragon template isn't listed in the core books. Sorry, nothing with that template can be.


Now that I see the crab, by the way, he doesn't even need that. 45 move silently and hide, +8 for racial bonuses (legendary tiger), +18 for the dexterity, means that it has at worst a 72, meaning it always sneaks up on its prey. If not, it usually wins initiative anyway. Then it pounces, easily hitting the Crab's flat-footed AC of 70, and proceeds to serve it a nice spaghetti breakfast for 656 damage, on average. Not including the two rake attacks.

Next meal/

True.

Frosty
2008-01-10, 01:52 AM
Umm...the Crabby has a Terrasque friend and Terasque can't be killed without Wish/Miracle! :smallredface:

Draco Ignifer
2008-01-10, 01:53 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm

SRD isn't core? Must have misunderstood the meaning... in that case, it's definately non-core - none of its bases besides lycanthrope or fighter are. However, it still only requires the SRD, which is close enough.

Talic
2008-01-10, 01:57 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm

SRD isn't core?

System Ref Docs include rules on Psionics and most other stuff that Wizards has posted. Core refers to the Core Rulebooks 1, 2, and 3. That's the DMG, the PHb, and the MM. Everything else is non-core.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-01-10, 02:07 AM
You can't use Alternate Form to shift into a creature with a template. If it was allowed, every druids would be changing into lolth-touched, paragon, woodling, magebred, dark, voidmind, mineral warrior animals.

Necromas
2008-01-10, 02:13 AM
Challenger approaching...

PSEUDONATURAL WERE-PARAGON ADVANCED HUGE MONSTROUS CRAB

I don't have the time to actually make the stat block, and I'm doubtful as to whether or not a monstrous crab counts as an animal.

Wordmiser
2008-01-10, 02:18 AM
No dice.

Vermin =/= Animal.

Draco Ignifer
2008-01-10, 02:19 AM
Doesn't matter, the way I see it. It's not turning into a tempated creature - it's a lycanthrope of a templated creature, which gains certain abilities from that lycanthrope - including, due to the way the lycanthrope tempate was written, a lot of the Paragon characteristics. It never says that you can't apply the lycanthrope template to a templated animal, after all. Hence, Alternate Form transforms it into a specifically-generated animal from the lycanthrope template, which has a number of those characteristics but not all.

This is made more convincing by the fact that it loses some of its Paragon abilities, including the luck- and insight-based bonuses to AC, skills, and saves.

Also, by literal interpretation, it's possible to make a Paragon one of these. However, the +15 to all stats, 1040 extra hit points, +15 caster level for special abilities (enabling quickened dispel), and various luck-based bonuses may not be worth the additional +15 CR.

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-10, 02:25 AM
You can't use Alternate Form to shift into a creature with a template. If it was allowed, every druids would be changing into lolth-touched, paragon, woodling, magebred, dark, voidmind, mineral warrior animals.

Wild Shape may not include Templates..

But the Werewolf Lord is a Dire Werewolf. :smallwink:

Talic
2008-01-10, 02:38 AM
Wild Shape may not include Templates..

But the Werewolf Lord is a Dire Werewolf. :smallwink:

Dire animals are not template animals. They have their own entries. That's a non-arguement.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-01-10, 02:44 AM
Okay, here's why a templated animal can never qualify for lycanthropy:

A lycanthrope's ability to assume the form of a specific animal follows the rule for Alternate Form supernatural ability. According to RAW [refer to http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm] you 'cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template'

So, theoretically, you CAN be a paragon weretiger thingamabob, but you cannot shapeshift into the animal form or hybrid form. :smallannoyed:

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-10, 02:46 AM
Dire animals are not template animals. They have their own entries. That's a non-argument.

They are? Weird, I always thought Dire was a template.

Talic
2008-01-10, 02:50 AM
They are? Weird, I always thought Dire was a template.

Check the MM, look for Dire critters. I believe they used to be advanced versions of their former animal, but they were never a template, to my knowledge.

Draco Ignifer
2008-01-10, 03:21 AM
Technically, lycanthropes can't change at all in that case, because they're turning into animals with the lycanthrope template. Psuedonatural creatures, similarly, are turning into monsters with the pseudonatural template.

However, ignoring this, there are three possibilities. The first is that it simply transforms into a mere tiger of legend, with the lycanthrope abilities added. This, however, causes it to retain the abilities of the lycanthrope, which are applied via the "base animal." Which is a paragon. The second, of course, is that it cannot transform into its animal form... but it can transform into its hybrid form, which is not a paragon, merely a hybrid lycanthropic animal created by the lycanthrope template. This removes its special attacks - namely, the ability to pounce, rake, and use its Paragon spell-like abilities, as well as its 300 ft. movement rate. However, it still retains all other special qualities. Weaker, but it still has obscene hit points, stats, saves, attacks, and the ability to dimension door.

However, the last is that the "specific animal" it transforms into is not identical to the base animal. This is evinced by the fact that it has extra natural armor, different ability scores, different armor class, and the like. It's quite plausible, then, to say that the alternate form is of an animal specially created by the template - just as the hybrid is a monster specially created by the template.

The_Snark
2008-01-10, 03:35 AM
It's quite plausible, then, to say that the alternate form is of an animal specially created by the template - just as the hybrid is a monster specially created by the template.

It's plausible, but it is bending the rules. As a general rule, you can't select a templated creature as your alternate form, and that's what you're doing here.

The reason you don't do it is that the lycanthrope template doesn't account for the increased challenge of the template on the animal when calculating CR. It's not at all surprising that the CR gets thrown out of whack.

Talic
2008-01-10, 03:40 AM
It's changing into an animal or specifically designed hybrid form, and it has the lycanthrope template. It's not changing into a creature with the lycanthrope template.

Alternate form rules, as applied to Lycanthrope, would suggest that the "base animal" may not have a template. That the lycanthrope ability then gives it one is beside the point. Using flawed logic to state that if something doesn't apply for one template means it shouldn't apply for any template is similarly unsupported.

The Glyphstone
2008-01-10, 06:50 AM
No dice.

Vermin =/= Animal.

Dice.:smalltongue:

Emantothrope (sp?) template off the Wizards website...Were-Vermin.:smallbiggrin:

Talic
2008-01-10, 07:13 AM
Actually, the initial paragon tiger is a match for the crab. Based on the tiger getting 1st attack (with hide/MS, this is almost guaranteed), the tiger can drop the crab in 3 rounds, assuming average damage, and 222 damage a round.

The Crab gets more attacks, though, and averages right in at 500 damage a round, with power attack for 20 to account for the lower AC of the tiger.

Given these numbers, the tiger will kill the crab in 3 rounds, with, and the crab will kill the tiger in 4. Tiger wins, and curls in a corner to cry.

ocato
2008-01-10, 09:29 AM
Don't forget this guy can cast Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, and See Invisibility as spell like abilities 3/day. If someone made it or allowed it (both unlikely, but this is a theoretical construct and I intend to treat it as such) it would probably be very difficult for any uber build or builds to defeat.

And Diplomancer isn't an uber build, it's just lazy thinking at this point. Like going "eh, wizard wins" without making a real argument.

So, I for one think this is a clever (albeit questionably rules-savvy) little make up and I shudder for the collective doom of the group of PCs that get this instead of rocks fall.

Frosty
2008-01-10, 11:41 AM
I wonder if there is any single level 20 PC that can kill this. Some sort of uber-charger build with ways to guarantee-roll natural 20s?

Ne0
2008-01-10, 12:24 PM
I wonder if there is any single level 20 PC that can kill this. Some sort of uber-charger build with ways to guarantee-roll natural 20s?

Two words:

Loaded Dice. :smallbiggrin:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-10, 12:30 PM
Dice.:smalltongue:

Emantothrope (sp?) template off the Wizards website...Were-Vermin.:smallbiggrin:

Here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a)

Also, re:Frosty, that's quite possible. An ubercharger would be one bet, but I am sure that something with relatively little nastiness. Or, rather, quite a lot, given that the title is


Or DMs can cheese too

Tempest Stormwind's bag o'quintessent bombs would certainly work. It's a good non-infinite loop source of awesome.

Necromas
2008-01-10, 02:37 PM
A level 20 wizard with access to the right books could probably kill this thing in more ways then you could shake a stick at.

The_Snark
2008-01-10, 03:27 PM
Anything that can fly. This thing suffers from Tarrasque syndrome. It has a moderate chance of taking somebody using a spell to fly down, but its caster level for Greater Dispel isn't very good.

Also, note the description of the animal type here:


Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

Going by that sentence, our paragon legendary tiger can't be of the animal type. It would, in fact, make much more sense to classify it as a magical beast...

Draco Ignifer
2008-01-10, 03:40 PM
Actually, defeating someone with fly isn't that difficult. Pseudonatural creatures can Dimension Door 1200 feet in any direction, due to their spell-like ability. This one can do it as a quickened action. Futher, due to its high spot ranks, if you can see it, it can see you. Dimension door one space above the flier, begin a full-round attack, and even if they live, they're now grappled.

Also, Paragon specifically indicates that type does not change.

marjan
2008-01-10, 03:44 PM
Pseudonatural creatures can Dimension Door 1200 feet in any direction, due to their spell-like ability. This one can do it as a quickened action. Futher, due to its high spot ranks, if you can see it, it can see you. Dimension door one space above the flier, begin a full-round attack, and even if they live, they're now grappled.


You can't do anything after you use DD.

The_Snark
2008-01-10, 04:12 PM
Actually, defeating someone with fly isn't that difficult. Pseudonatural creatures can Dimension Door 1200 feet in any direction, due to their spell-like ability. This one can do it as a quickened action. Futher, due to its high spot ranks, if you can see it, it can see you. Dimension door one space above the flier, begin a full-round attack, and even if they live, they're now grappled.

Also, Paragon specifically indicates that type does not change.

As Marjan says, it doesn't matter. Once you use Dimension Door, your turn is over, and the flyer cheerfully moves away.

Also... it can beat the Crab linked to, but... you realize that's not a fair comparison, because that version of the Crab has only 16 HD. To make it an even contest, you'd have to advance the Crab, too.

And that version of the Crab could grapple this cat to death with ease. Even the standard-issue Colossal crab can equal this thing in a grapple; a paragon or pseudonatural version, much less both, would rip it to pieces.

As for the Paragon template, yeah... that's something that really ought to be corrected.

marjan
2008-01-10, 04:14 PM
Also... it can beat the Crab linked to, but... you realize that's not a fair comparison, because that version of the Crab has only 16 HD. To make it an even contest, you'd have to advance the Crab, too.


I agree that it's not fair comparision but crab has CR 33 and this thing has CR 20. It just shows that CR system doesn't make snese.

Draco Ignifer
2008-01-10, 04:19 PM
Right, missed that. No wonder people prefer teleport.

Better tactic, then. Dimension door 210' above the foe instead. It's much better equipped to suffer the falling damage from landing on its foe, taking 20d6, doing at most about a sixteenth of its hit points, while dishing out about 24-25d6 in exchange. Any larger flying creatures can't escape with a 5' step, and hence suffer attacks of opportunity if they try to flee, while smaller ones will quite likely become overburdened and go crashing to the ground, tiger in tow. Still 20d6 more damage for the tiger, but it has HP to spare.

Lather, rinse, repeat, walk away fast-healing the damage to your HP with some yummy jello as a victory snack.

marjan
2008-01-10, 04:26 PM
Right, missed that. No wonder people prefer teleport.

Better tactic, then. Dimension door 210' above the foe instead. It's much better equipped to suffer the falling damage from landing on its foe, taking 20d6, doing at most about a sixteenth of its hit points, while dishing out about 24-25d6 in exchange. Any larger flying creatures can't escape with a 5' step, and hence suffer attacks of opportunity if they try to flee, while smaller ones will quite likely become overburdened and go crashing to the ground, tiger in tow. Still 20d6 more damage for the tiger, but it has HP to spare.

Lather, rinse, repeat, walk away fast-healing the damage to your HP with some yummy jello as a victory snack.

That's assuming your victim doesn't move away after you use DD. I wouldn't bet on that.

Keld Denar
2008-01-10, 04:39 PM
Have kitteh take a single level in monk for the Flurry of Blows ability, then take the tactical feat Sun School. Sun School gives you 3 neat abilities, one of which is the ability to make a single attack on the far side of a dim door.

With Improved Grab, 1 hit is all you need. Also, take the Swallow Whole feat...its tasty! (pun intended)

*blink* *snatch* *swallow* *fall* *nap* *repeat*

marjan
2008-01-10, 04:41 PM
Also, take the Swallow Whole feat...its tasty! (pun intended)

Where is the Swallow Whole feat from?

Arbitrarity
2008-01-10, 05:22 PM
Since it's not "core 3", I say Cleric.

Surge of Fortune + Vorpal For The Cheese.