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View Full Version : Shadow Hand Disciple v2.0[Base Class]



Valairn
2008-01-10, 03:16 PM
Deleted to remove info.

Stycotl
2008-01-10, 05:46 PM
i like the concept. i like the execution. some of the abilities are really cool too.

couple of suggestions though:

will of shadow is balanced as is. at first i missed the 1/day thing, and i was gonna say it was too powerful. but i caught my blunder. anyway, my pet peeve (one of them) is one-a-day abilities. i can understand in some cases, luck rerolls, etc. but an ability--a talent--i think should be usable more often. plus, with the "affects creatures normally immune to crits, sneak, etc", if players are even guessing that they're gonna fight undead or constructs, they are gonna hoard their ability till the end. metagaming sucks.

i would suggest lowering the power level, and then making it usable more often.

or keep the 1/day cool ability, but give at least something for the rest of the encounters. "the shd gains his charisma mod as a morale bonus to hit prob and AC against foes who ignore, or fail in their duel of wills, for the rest of the encounter" (or make it scale) and then give the cool, construct-sneaking ability.

dark terror: i would get rid of the secondary touch attack. just make them roll the save on the normal attack. or, if you think that unbalanced, do it if they take a -4 penalty to attack, or if they succeed in their to-hit roll by +4 or more.

chaos blade: very nice.

heart o' shadow: i don't realy see the need for double-save, but whatever. again with the one-a-day deal. i would lower the dc to normal (10+) and then make it XXX modifier/day uses. and i would probably get rid of the second save. there are plenty of spells by 20th level that have large secondary effects (fail: die, save: take 20d6 damage (die)). i don't see your reasoning. maybe i should go back and read it...

anyway, other than that, i see this as a very nice base class assassin variant. nice ideas. nicely executed. aaron out.

also, the name throws me. they are shadow hand disciples. but they practice other disciplines. i know that doesn't seem like much. but it rubs me the wrong way. it's a big sacrifice, but i'd get rid of access to diamond mind and tiger claw. or i would change the name. keep them shadowy, even have the same storyline, but just call them something other than the name of the discipline.

Ascension
2008-01-10, 06:45 PM
Uhh, I don't have my Tome of Battle in front of me at the moment, but isn't the Shadow Hand discipline one of the ones that's limited to Swordsages? Why have this Shadow Hand class ready maneuvers "as a warblade"? The 4 + Int skill progression and limited class skill selection also strikes me as a little odd for what is basically a rogue with a limited selection of martial maneuvers. I'd recommend, as Stycotl did, cutting the available maneuvers back to just the Shadow Hand school, and, in exchange, try expanding the class skill list and upping the skill points a little. We've got Tiger Claw if we just want someone dead. Shadow Hand is for skillfully making them dead.

Valairn
2008-01-10, 06:46 PM
i like the concept. i like the execution. some of the abilities are really cool too.

couple of suggestions though:

will of shadow is balanced as is. at first i missed the 1/day thing, and i was gonna say it was too powerful. but i caught my blunder. anyway, my pet peeve (one of them) is one-a-day abilities. i can understand in some cases, luck rerolls, etc. but an ability--a talent--i think should be usable more often. plus, with the "affects creatures normally immune to crits, sneak, etc", if players are even guessing that they're gonna fight undead or constructs, they are gonna hoard their ability till the end. metagaming sucks.

i would suggest lowering the power level, and then making it usable more often.

or keep the 1/day cool ability, but give at least something for the rest of the encounters. "the shd gains his charisma mod as a morale bonus to hit prob and AC against foes who ignore, or fail in their duel of wills, for the rest of the encounter" (or make it scale) and then give the cool, construct-sneaking ability.


Had a talk with Fax about this ability, he seems to think and I agree with him, that I could limit the number of rounds the guaranteed sneak attack lasts by an xxx modifier, and have the ability usable a number of times per day xxx modifier. Wis for the number of rounds seems consistent, and cha for the number of times per day is probably fine. A minimum of one for each of course.



dark terror: i would get rid of the secondary touch attack. just make them roll the save on the normal attack. or, if you think that unbalanced, do it if they take a -4 penalty to attack, or if they succeed in their to-hit roll by +4 or more.


I actually just changed this ability to be a will save or become flat-footed, I didn't like the ability damage, there are maneuvers for that, and also it just seemed really out of place.



chaos blade: very nice.




heart o' shadow: i don't realy see the need for double-save, but whatever. again with the one-a-day deal. i would lower the dc to normal (10+) and then make it XXX modifier/day uses. and i would probably get rid of the second save. there are plenty of spells by 20th level that have large secondary effects (fail: die, save: take 20d6 damage (die)). i don't see your reasoning. maybe i should go back and read it...


Well its a free action, that I should specify only lasts 1 round, but its a free action that with the DC it has, has a fairly good chance to dealing 10d6 damage, that's pretty snazzy for a free action. The two saves is pretty much, because 1 save, save or die effects suck(imho).



anyway, other than that, i see this as a very nice base class assassin variant. nice ideas. nicely executed. aaron out.

also, the name throws me. they are shadow hand disciples. but they practice other disciplines. i know that doesn't seem like much. but it rubs me the wrong way. it's a big sacrifice, but i'd get rid of access to diamond mind and tiger claw. or i would change the name. keep them shadowy, even have the same storyline, but just call them something other than the name of the discipline.

Well the "fluff" of ToB is that the Tiger Claw and Shadow hand discipline leaders betrayed the Temple of Nine swords or some such. So it was partly thematic. The Diamond Mind is there, because its all about concentration, and more or less opening your opponent up, which are thematic with an assassin like class. 3 disciplines is the same as a crusader, who is more or less a Devoted Spirit Disciple, so it also fits with prior work.

Thanks for the input, when I read your post I immediately had an idea for the Dark Terror replacement.

Valairn
2008-01-10, 07:01 PM
Uhh, I don't have my Tome of Battle in front of me at the moment, but isn't the Shadow Hand discipline one of the ones that's limited to Swordsages? Why have this Shadow Hand class ready maneuvers "as a warblade"? The 4 + Int skill progression and limited class skill selection also strikes me as a little odd for what is basically a rogue with a limited selection of martial maneuvers. I'd recommend, as Stycotl did, cutting the available maneuvers back to just the Shadow Hand school, and, in exchange, try expanding the class skill list and upping the skill points a little. We've got Tiger Claw if we just want someone dead. Shadow Hand is for skillfully making them dead.

Well honestly every class actually readies their maneuvers the exact same way, so its a bit misleading up there, I'll change the text appropriately. The recovery method is different than both a warblade and a swordsage, because this is a different class than a swordsage. The 3 disciplines are all there for a reason. Tiger Claw, because Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw were in cahoots, and Diamond Mind, because its honestly just fits. Also the Crusader, who has access to the least number of Disciplines still has access to 3 disciplines. A one discipline Martial class is actually quite weak, because of the lack of diversity that is normally contained in a single discipline.

I see what you are saying, the name leads one to believe that this guy is a one trick wonder, but its a real shame to design a class that can only do one thing really well. And also I didn't want this class to have a skill point focus, I wanted him to have a combat focus and I think in that regard I succeeded, I'd be more than happy to change the name :-D.

Stycotl
2008-01-11, 06:09 PM
i like the drak terror change. cool stuff. tis guy's gonna be a sneak-attacking fiend. i quite like. your explanation for the other disciplines was good. if you are serious about changing the name, i'll try to think of some. if not, it's still a playable, intriguing class. you do some good work on these forums, valairn, good job. aaron out.

Valairn
2008-01-11, 07:23 PM
Thanks :-D.