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Xyk
2008-01-10, 11:25 PM
I am trying to build a 3rd level warrior type character. ToB is allowed. He doesn't wear armor for ethical reasons, and I would really not like supernatural abilities if possible. Because I am taking these setbacks, my DM is allowing me better stats.

18, 16, 16, 15, 14, 12 are my stats, I have not placed them yet, as my class and race will determine many things. I expect dex to be highest and I am thinking wood elf as a race.

As of yet, swordsage is my favorite because of the AC bonus. The problem is all the good stances and maneuvers for swordsage are supernatural.

SadisticFishing
2008-01-10, 11:30 PM
Well, not using Armor is a pretty severe penalty. Just go Barbarian or Warblade and try to kill things as quickly as possible.

tyckspoon
2008-01-11, 12:04 AM
As of yet, swordsage is my favorite because of the AC bonus. The problem is all the good stances and maneuvers for swordsage are supernatural.

So.. just don't take them. There are a few things you're giving up that way- Shadow Hand has very nice things in it, and the Shadow Blade feat is very nice for dex-focused statlines (it's good enough that you might want to pick one of the few non-supernatural Shadow Hand maneuvers just to meet its prerequisite). But Shadow Hand and Desert Wind hardly have all the good maneuvers a Swordsage can pick; you can get a perfectly functional swordsage by only picking your maneuvers from Tiger Claw/Diamond Mind/Stone Dragon/Setting Sun.. although if you're limiting yourself to the non-supernatural disciplines already, you might want to go with a Warblade instead.

ToB is probably your best bet for base classes. There are a few other light-armor melee base classes (Swashbuckler) but a lot of them mostly suck (Swashbuckler.) You could do an Int-based fighter, maybe- Swashbuckler 3 for Int to damage, Warblade whatever, Duelist X for Int to AC.

Draz74
2008-01-11, 12:37 AM
Swashbuckler 3 / Warblade 3 / Duelist 7 / Warblade 7 would indeed be pretty decent. You can keep taking Duelist past 7th level if you want, but I kind of don't recommend it unless your Int bonus is higher than +7 (unlikely on a melee character). After level 7, the Duelist gets +2 initiative, Deflect Arrows, and +1d6 damage with Precise Strike; none of which are very impressive compared to more Warblade levels.

High Dex, Shadow Blade feat ...

Durendal
2008-01-11, 02:37 AM
The Island of Blades stance is a very handy first level shadow hand manuever that is not supernatural. Take that and the Shadow Blade feat with stat priority on dex and wis and you should be good to go.

Then just focus on the non-supernatural manuevers from Stone dragon, diamond mind, tiger claw and seting sun. I would either go with the unarmed strike variant of the swordsage (pg 20; gives up light armor prof for monks UAS progression), duel wield, or go the extra-cheesey route and use a spiked chain. Flavor's up to you.

WhiteHarness
2008-01-11, 03:37 AM
He doesn't wear armor for ethical reasons...

I gotta hear this. How on earth could wearing armour clash with anyone's ethics???

chionophile
2008-01-11, 03:50 AM
I gotta hear this. How on earth could wearing armour clash with anyone's ethics???

Two words: Gnome sweatshops.

imperialspectre
2008-01-11, 04:09 AM
If you're already going to limit yourself from one of the best sources of defense in the game on ethical grounds, look into Vow of Poverty with the unarmed-damage Swordsage variant (trade light armor proficiency for Monk unarmed damage progression). This only works if your DM allows Book of Exalted Deeds, so you'll have to check on that.

But for third level, you're looking pretty good. You'll need to be a human and spend your first-level feats on Sacred Vow and VoP, but you'll get two exalted feats and your normal third-level feat. So here's what you do:

Put your 18 in WIS and one of the 16s in DEX. Do the rest to taste, but here's what I would do:

16 STR
16 DEX
15 CON
14 INT (I put the 15 in the CON so you can put one of your level-up points in it for 16--all the ability score bonuses you get from VoP are even-numbered, so you might as well make the most of the odd numbered score).
18 WIS
12 CHA

Take Touch of Golden Ice for your 1st-level exalted feat, and Intuitive Attack for your 2nd-level exalted feat. Take Improved Unarmed Strike for your 3rd-level feat.

You're really best off as a Shadow Hand specialist, if you're okay with a little bit of supernatural-ness, since Shadow Blade only gives you DEX to damage while you're in a Shadow Hand stance, and Shadow Hand is one of the two schools that favors unarmed strike and does lots of good damage (I think Setting Sun favors unarmed strike, but it emphasizes grappling and does crap for damage).

If you don't want any supernatural abilities, then go for Tiger Claw specialization.

Your AC will be high, especially for a 3rd-level character: 5 from your VoP AC bonus, 3 DEX bonus, 4 WIS bonus, for 22 AC without any help from your friendly neighborhood spellcaster.

Your attack bonus on the unarmed strikes will be +5 (+4 WIS modifier, +1 from Discipline Focus). Your base unarmed damage will be 1d6+3, but will rise to 1d8+7 as soon as you hit 4th level every time you use a Tiger Claw strike, since that Discipline Focus gives you WIS to damage, too.

Then, start pumping WIS for the rest of your character's life.

Yeril
2008-01-11, 05:31 AM
Why not use the Defense Bonus system, (sorry if its already been said)

It gives you a decent AC bonus when your unarmored, which increases as you level (Like Bab), I think this would suit you, right?

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-01-11, 06:26 AM
I like using a mix of stone dragon and shadow hand for a non-magic flavor ToB character. Mainly Stone Dragon for the anime atyle uber strength slams you can deliver. Supernatural...no...just insane power.

kme
2008-01-11, 07:24 AM
You should try to convince your DM to allow you to get your WIS bonus on AC even while you are unarmored.

Xyk
2008-01-11, 08:52 AM
I gotta hear this. How on earth could wearing armour clash with anyone's ethics???

About that. He is basically trying to prove himself and thinks only wimps and commies wear armor. The unarmed variant of Swordsage should blend in nicely, and he considers magic a crutch against a bodies natural power. Again only for wimps and commies.


If you're already going to limit yourself from one of the best sources of defense in the game on ethical grounds, look into Vow of Poverty with the unarmed-damage Swordsage variant (trade light armor proficiency for Monk unarmed damage progression). This only works if your DM allows Book of Exalted Deeds, so you'll have to check on that.

But for third level, you're looking pretty good. You'll need to be a human and spend your first-level feats on Sacred Vow and VoP, but you'll get two exalted feats and your normal third-level feat. So here's what you do:

Put your 18 in WIS and one of the 16s in DEX. Do the rest to taste, but here's what I would do:

16 STR
16 DEX
15 CON
14 INT (I put the 15 in the CON so you can put one of your level-up points in it for 16--all the ability score bonuses you get from VoP are even-numbered, so you might as well make the most of the odd numbered score).
18 WIS
12 CHA

Take Touch of Golden Ice for your 1st-level exalted feat, and Intuitive Attack for your 2nd-level exalted feat. Take Improved Unarmed Strike for your 3rd-level feat.

You're really best off as a Shadow Hand specialist, if you're okay with a little bit of supernatural-ness, since Shadow Blade only gives you DEX to damage while you're in a Shadow Hand stance, and Shadow Hand is one of the two schools that favors unarmed strike and does lots of good damage (I think Setting Sun favors unarmed strike, but it emphasizes grappling and does crap for damage).

If you don't want any supernatural abilities, then go for Tiger Claw specialization.

Your AC will be high, especially for a 3rd-level character: 5 from your VoP AC bonus, 3 DEX bonus, 4 WIS bonus, for 22 AC without any help from your friendly neighborhood spellcaster.

Your attack bonus on the unarmed strikes will be +5 (+4 WIS modifier, +1 from Discipline Focus). Your base unarmed damage will be 1d6+3, but will rise to 1d8+7 as soon as you hit 4th level every time you use a Tiger Claw strike, since that Discipline Focus gives you WIS to damage, too.

Then, start pumping WIS for the rest of your character's life.

This will work splendidly, I just gotta make him more of a good guy. A quick question though, do you have to keep acting good once you take sacred vow and everything? My character is basically just arrogant, saying "material possessions are for wimps and I'm gonna show the world my point of view."

Ability-wise it's perfect but I'm not sure fluff-wise. I will probably use this unless I hear something better.

Keld Denar
2008-01-11, 09:03 AM
correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't think I am, but I'm thinkin that unarmed strike is NOT a Shadow Hand weapon, and therefore can NOT benefit from the Shadow Blade feat.

Telonius
2008-01-11, 09:04 AM
A one-level dip of the Reaping Mauler PrC from Complete Warrior might be nice.

Ryuuk
2008-01-11, 09:07 AM
You might have some troubles with Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, since they pretty much force you to work the fluff around them. If you want to keep those feats, you need to keep an Exalted Good status, which is right up there with the paladin's code of morality, if not higher. A single evil act will make you lose those feats and there benefits and I'm not sure if an atonement would be enough to get them back (or even in character, since you're considering magic to be below you).

kamikasei
2008-01-11, 09:07 AM
Take Touch of Golden Ice for your 1st-level exalted feat, and Intuitive Attack for your 2nd-level exalted feat. Take Improved Unarmed Strike for your 3rd-level feat.

You're really best off as a Shadow Hand specialist, if you're okay with a little bit of supernatural-ness, since Shadow Blade only gives you DEX to damage while you're in a Shadow Hand stance...

I might be missing something, but you haven't actually left yourself a feat slot to take Shadow Blade before sixth level.

WorthingSon
2008-01-11, 09:13 AM
This will work splendidly, I just gotta make him more of a good guy. A quick question though, do you have to keep acting good once you take sacred vow and everything? My character is basically just arrogant, saying "material possessions are for wimps and I'm gonna show the world my point of view."

Do you have to act god.... technically no; however, these powers decend from the fact that you are a true saint. You are so good and self sacrificing, that the gods reward you and protect you.

The only thing VoP keeps you from doing is owning anything that is not a mundane item.

Here are the "OTHER RAMIFICATIONS OF POVERTY"

A character who has forsaken material possessions may find
himself at a marked disadvantage when it comes to certain necessary
expenses, such as expensive material components. One
option is for ascetic characters to beg components from other
party members, who are probably gaining as much benefit from
having the spell cast as the caster is. Alternatively, an ascetic
spellcaster can sacrifice experience points in place of expensive
components, with 1 XP equivalent to 5 gp value of components.
Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of
poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members
get bigger shares of treasure! An ascetic character must be
as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial. The majority
of her share of party treasure (or the profits from the sale
thereof ) should be donated to the needy, either directly (equipping
rescued captives with gear taken from their fallen captors)
or indirectly (making a large donation to a temple noted for its
work among the poor). While taking upon herself the burden of
poverty voluntarily, an ascetic recognizes that many people do
not have the freedom to choose poverty, but instead have it
forced upon them, and seeks to better those unfortunates as
much as possible.

Darrin
2008-01-11, 09:26 AM
correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't think I am, but I'm thinkin that unarmed strike is NOT a Shadow Hand weapon, and therefore can NOT benefit from the Shadow Blade feat.

Consider yourself corrected, then. Shadow Hand weapons: Dagger, sai, siangham, short sword, spiked chian, unarmed strike.

If you're looking to TWF with Bloodclaw Master, two Shadow Hand weapons overlap with Superior Two-Weapon Fighting: dagger and unarmed strike.

Keld Denar
2008-01-11, 11:01 AM
Consider yourself corrected, then.

Eh, happens...

bugsysservant
2008-01-11, 11:30 AM
Bear in mind that if you go Vow of Poverty, you will actually be more magical than if you went with the armor. IIRC, all Exalted feats are supernatural, so not only will you be helpless in AMF, you will also reek of magic.

Hmm... on a completely unrelated note, since Exalted Feats are negated in an AMF, does that mean someone with VoP can enter an AMF and commit evil acts and use possessions, as long as he doesn't change his alignment, and not lose th feat?

Person_Man
2008-01-11, 12:07 PM
"AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom Modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield."

Using the RAW, you only get the Swordsage bonus to AC if you are wearing light armor. In the "Adaptation" section, it says that you can trade your light armor proficiency for a Monk's Unarmed Strike progression. It says nothing about changing your AC Bonus ability. This means you have to continue to wear armor if you want to get your AC Bonus, although you should use armor with no armor check penalty, so as to avoid non-proficiency problems.

Of course, the vast majority of reasonable DMs (including me) will let you have the AC Bonus when you are unarmored. But that's not how its written.

I would actually go with a Psychic Warrior. They can be built to be entirely non-magical and non-supernatural. Pulling off the "getting by on sheer willpower" fits perfectly with their fluff, because all of their powers are mental. They can use Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm), which is one of the best sources of AC in the game. And when built correctly, I'd argue that they're more powerful then a Swordsage if your DM uses 4 or less encounters per game day. If your DM is fond of marathon sessions and doesn't let your Wizard cast Rope Trick so that you can rest, then ToB material definitely has the upper hand.

Another entirely non-magical and non-psionic option would be a Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, or variant non-magical Ranger or Paladin build. There are plenty of powerful feats out there that you could use to be effective in combat. And all of your abilities would be extraordinary.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-11, 12:29 PM
About that. He is basically trying to prove himself and thinks only wimps and commies wear armor. The unarmed variant of Swordsage should blend in nicely, and he considers magic a crutch against a bodies natural power. Again only for wimps and commies.


Sounds like the Forsaker class, to be honest. I do warn you though;

http://www.federalreview.com/uploaded_images/itsatrap-756180.jpg


This will work splendidly, I just gotta make him more of a good guy. A quick question though, do you have to keep acting good once you take sacred vow and everything? My character is basically just arrogant, saying "material possessions are for wimps and I'm gonna show the world my point of view."

Ability-wise it's perfect but I'm not sure fluff-wise. I will probably use this unless I hear something better.

This isn't really the point of the vow - the reason you don't have equipment is because you've given it all away to the poor, not because you disdain it.

Xyk
2008-01-11, 09:00 PM
Bear in mind that if you go Vow of Poverty, you will actually be more magical than if you went with the armor. IIRC, all Exalted feats are supernatural, so not only will you be helpless in AMF, you will also reek of magic.

Hmm... on a completely unrelated note, since Exalted Feats are negated in an AMF, does that mean someone with VoP can enter an AMF and commit evil acts and use possessions, as long as he doesn't change his alignment, and not lose th feat?

The first point is a very good point. That and the fact that I can't roleplay exalted. It's really hard for me because I generally play chaotic neutral.

Where is the forsaker class located? I have all the books but I don't recall seeing it.

Psionic warrior is a stretch. He would come off as a hypocrite even if technically its a strength of will.

Swordsage with unarmed strike, setting sun weapons for discipline focus, blood in the water and stance of clarity as my stances, ability specialization in dex then wis, then strength.---seems to be the best option as of yet.

Forsaker is a possibility, but having not seen it, I can't say. I will scour the playgrounds for a decent class as well.

What race is good for the swordsage build? Wood Elf?

SadisticFishing
2008-01-11, 09:11 PM
Jeeze Person_Man, that's a bit nit-picky and RAW for me.

Alright, well, "relying on the body's natural power" CAN be Supernatural, there's no reason to stay away from it for that reason. All the power of the Sublime Way "comes from within", even when you're summoning Fireballs.

EDIT: Blood in the Water with unarmed strikes is not just unoptimal, it's bad. You want at the very least a Keen Shortsword (17-20), and Keen Kukris is definately the way to go for it (15-20).

Xyk
2008-01-11, 09:17 PM
Yeah, blood in the water probably not. Maybe that setting sun one which i forget the name of. lets you run quick over rough terrain.

Draz74
2008-01-12, 12:50 AM
Step of the Wind.


Swordsage with unarmed strike, setting sun weapons for discipline focus, blood in the water and stance of clarity as my stances, ability specialization in dex then wis, then strength.---seems to be the best option as of yet.

What was wrong with the Swashbuckler/Warblade/Duelist possibility?

Xyk
2008-01-12, 01:58 AM
Step of the Wind.



What was wrong with the Swashbuckler/Warblade/Duelist possibility?

Mostly swash-bucklers are pansies. I don't know what that combo would do for me. As armor-less, the swash-bucklers do me no good. for 6 levels i rely on dex alone for AC. at 5th level that brings me to a max of 16 AC if i go with halfling and max dex. When i do take that duelist level, I only get 1 more. With swordsage i get a max of 19 AC at 2nd level if I go with halfling (10+5 dex+1 size+ 3 wis) I plan on wood elf however so 18 isn't bad. This means with no magic I can be wearing clothes and have no weapons and be as useful as an armored fighter (more cos of no armor check penalty). That looks good to me.

I can't think of anything that will exemplify this character more than that. Feel free to out-think me.

skywalker
2008-01-12, 02:51 AM
You could make a new vow of poverty feat. One from the neutral god of poverty. I'm sure fhalanargan or however the hell you spell his name could appreciate somebody who walked around without possessions just for the hell of it. You could just have some sort of code where you have to be neutral and not passionately take sides with one ideal or the other. Which shouldn't be hard as someone who normally plays chaotic neutral.

Wordmiser
2008-01-12, 02:53 AM
Just run this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) variant by your DM and build whatever sort of character you want.

Note that this isn't a feat which only affects one character, it touches every character in your DM's world.

[edit:]
You could make a new vow of poverty feat. One from the neutral god of poverty. I'm sure fhalanargan or however the hell you spell his name could appreciate somebody who walked around without possessions just for the hell of it. You could just have some sort of code where you have to be neutral and not passionately take sides with one ideal or the other. Which shouldn't be hard as someone who normally plays chaotic neutral.If you like the feat, do this. Really--There's no need to enforce strict requirements if the entire point of the feat is to make your character weaker than he'd otherwise be.

Riffington
2008-01-12, 08:10 AM
About that. He is basically trying to prove himself and thinks only wimps and commies wear armor. The unarmed variant of Swordsage should blend in nicely, and he considers magic a crutch against a bodies natural power. Again only for wimps and commies.
...
18, 16, 16, 15, 14, 12 are my stats

One flaw I see is that his lowest stat is a 12, but his Wisdom is clearly below 10.

paigeoliver
2008-01-12, 08:27 AM
Option 1, ignore the guy's AC. (This option isn't as bad as it might seem).

Option 2. Start with a level of a class that gives you a second stat to armor class, monk gives wisdom, Peasant Hero/ine (Pirate Kingdoms book, and also posted in the homebrew section of this board), gives Charisma to AC without the loss of a BAB.

Option 3 Do an armor class build, vow of poverty, monk, peasant hero, and then whatever else you can stack on there. Note, armor class builds are not very fun to play.

Hopeless
2008-01-12, 08:36 AM
I am trying to build a 3rd level warrior type character. ToB is allowed. He doesn't wear armor for ethical reasons, and I would really not like supernatural abilities if possible. Because I am taking these setbacks, my DM is allowing me better stats.

18, 16, 16, 15, 14, 12 are my stats, I have not placed them yet, as my class and race will determine many things. I expect dex to be highest and I am thinking wood elf as a race.

As of yet, swordsage is my favorite because of the AC bonus. The problem is all the good stances and maneuvers for swordsage are supernatural.

Str 16, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 15, take the Expertise and Dodge feats this means for every -1 on your base attack you gain a +1 to your AC whilst the other feat grants you a +1 to your AC versus one foe only.

There are other feat books such as the Ultimate Feat book from Mongoose and the AEG Feats book one of these has Unarmoured Defence Proficiency feats essentially you gain an AC bonus whilst unarmoured and allows more feats to be spent to increase it so the higher level you are the better AC bonus you get as a result however without knowing what your DM will llow I am assuming the above 2 feats may have to do.

So Dex of 18 for +4 bonus, reduce base attack to +1 for another +2 to this nd the +1 from dodge will grant you a base AC of 16/17 vs one foe barring anything else.

Please note I don't own the book this swordsage comes from so all I can say on its supernatural defences is just treat them as if they are merely the result of advanced training just watchany asian fantasy movie where they have sword fights or even any final fantasy computer game for examples of this.

It also depends on the skills you want to prusue since that may mean moving those attributes around to fit what you want.

Take care and all the best!

Kizara
2008-01-12, 09:23 AM
barbarian 1/fighter 2/hexblade 3/fb 10

DEFENSE IS FOR THE WEAK! Embrace the power of smash! :)

goken04
2008-01-12, 12:19 PM
Just throwin' this out there:

Carmendine Monk (Dragon Magazine) feat for Int to AC instead of Wis as a monk. Get your DM to approve it for the swordsage.

Shadow Blade feat for getting your DEX to damage w/ daggers (pick any non-supernatural Shadow Hand stance).

+3 levels of Swashbuckler for Weapon Finesse and Int to damage with your daggers (or kukris).

I'm thinking all five levels of Invisible Blade (CW) for, if I'm not mistaken (i'm AFB) for Unfettered Defense (which, RAW, should stack w/ Swordsage's bonus).

Finish with Duelist to taste!

Result? Int to AC THRICE, plus dexterity and Int to damage. Some sneak attack and precision damage, to boot. Feel free to add some Warblade levels for MAXIMUM INT SYNERGY!

I don't know if he's quite as smashy as you want to be, but he's def. pretty cocky.

Also of note, the Thief-Acrobat PrC (CA) is a pretty decent PrC that grants an AC bonus (a la Monk). If you can mix 5 levels of that into the build, more power to ya.

Draz74
2008-01-12, 12:37 PM
Mostly swash-bucklers are pansies. I don't know what that combo would do for me. As armor-less, the swash-bucklers do me no good. for 6 levels i rely on dex alone for AC. at 5th level that brings me to a max of 16 AC if i go with halfling and max dex. When i do take that duelist level, I only get 1 more. With swordsage i get a max of 19 AC at 2nd level if I go with halfling (10+5 dex+1 size+ 3 wis) I plan on wood elf however so 18 isn't bad. This means with no magic I can be wearing clothes and have no weapons and be as useful as an armored fighter (more cos of no armor check penalty). That looks good to me.

I can't think of anything that will exemplify this character more than that. Feel free to out-think me.

It's true, Swashbuckler/Warblade/Duelist won't have a very good AC until Level 10 or 11 or so. But I guess I don't consider AC all that important on some builds ... and there are things you can do to improve your AC more than you might think.

You'll be taking Dodge with this build, because it's a prerequisite for Duelist. That's not a huge help, but it's a slight boost to your AC. You'll also be taking Mobility as a prereq, which is even less helpful, but it means you'll be able to take Elusive Target, which is a great defensive feat, as soon as your BAB is high enough (+6).

I'd also imagine that this would be a character who would Fight Defensively a lot. (Makes a lot of sense IMHO for an unarmored, high-Int warrior.) (By the way, I don't suppose this character could use a shield until he gets Duelist? Or are shields, too, only for wimps?) That's another boost to your AC. And hopefully using decent Maneuvers (Emerald Razor especially) would keep your attacks from being too inaccurate while fighting defensively. If you want (and you're human), you can add Combat Expertise to make this a better option.
... and then, once you hit Level 13 (Duelist Level 7), you'll definitely want to be Fighting Defensively, as it provides a huge AC boost due to Elaborate Parry. So if you're already used to Fighting Defensively, this will still be in-character.

There are also some maneuvers that can improve your defense. Stone Bones is decent at low levels. Wall of Blades gives you another good defense option. If you usually fight one foe at a time in your campaign, Stance of Clarity is yet another good option.

All of these suggestions about maneuvers -- especially Emerald Razor and Wall of Blades, which are 2nd-level maneuvers -- makes me think you might be better off if you start out as Warblade 3, and after that start taking Swashbuckler levels.

Or ... hmmmm. You could drop Swashbuckler entirely. I'm not sure they're "pansies" like you say; they have d10 hit dice and good BAB, and (as a 3-level dip) are pretty popular in decent melee builds. But the main thing they give you is a damage increase for your high Int, and a maneuver-user doesn't necessarily need that damage boost. So I guess you could just do Warblade 6 / Duelist 7 / Warblade 7. The main problem with this build is that you'll have to actually take Weapon Finesse as a non-bonus feat. But it could work.

Anyway, the point of all this is that I just feel that a high-Int, tough, full BAB character fits your character concept better than a high-Wis, medium-BAB, d8-HD, "tricky" character. Especially when you consider the couple class features (not maneuvers) that the Swordsage gets that have quite an arcane flavor; they don't feel like they fit your concept very well at all.

Xyk
2008-01-12, 01:02 PM
You could make a new vow of poverty feat. One from the neutral god of poverty. I'm sure fhalanargan or however the hell you spell his name could appreciate somebody who walked around without possessions just for the hell of it. You could just have some sort of code where you have to be neutral and not passionately take sides with one ideal or the other. Which shouldn't be hard as someone who normally plays chaotic neutral.
That would sound good but a god protects him from harm and grants him extra power. No vow of poverty for me.

The warblade/duelist thing is a good build, but he doesn't fight all that smart. Intelligence I find involves conscious action while wisdom is more perception and dodging things by predicting movements. He will probably be a genius given his stats, but I think I'd rather go swordsage with unarmed.


There are other feat books such as the Ultimate Feat book from Mongoose and the AEG Feats book one of these has Unarmoured Defence Proficiency feats essentially you gain an AC bonus whilst unarmoured and allows more feats to be spent to increase it so the higher level you are the better AC bonus you get as a result however without knowing what your DM will llow I am assuming the above 2 feats may have to do.

I do not have that book. I have not seen it anywhere.

Defence bonusses I do not like. Class based bonuses like that just don't sit right with me.

I have not heard anything better than unarmed swordsage that steers away from magic.

BloodyAngel
2008-01-12, 01:13 PM
Play second edition. Seriously. The builds for warriors in the Players Option: Skills and Powers book made warriors several dozen times cooler and more useful then they are in 3.5. No more did the fighter have to strap on full plate and a heavy shield to not die two rounds into a fight (though he could, if he wanted) Martial characters mattered a whole lot more, and get this... ACTUALLY got skills. Plus there was none of this spiked chain nonsense. :smallyuk:

skywalker
2008-01-12, 01:58 PM
That would sound good but a god protects him from harm and grants him extra power. No vow of poverty for me.

What if he didn't know?


One note to hopeless specifically and everyone generally: Combat Expertise requires a 13 INT, so putting the 12 in INT would not work.

Draz74
2008-01-12, 03:52 PM
The warblade/duelist thing is a good build, but he doesn't fight all that smart. Intelligence I find involves conscious action while wisdom is more perception and dodging things by predicting movements. He will probably be a genius given his stats, but I think I'd rather go swordsage with unarmed.

Ah, OK. I didn't understand your character concept very well then. If he's actually more of an intuitive type than a deliberate type, then by all means go for Swordsage rather than Warblade/Duelist. As long as you can get your DM to agree (which he should) with the interpretation that Swordsage gets +Wis to AC when unarmored (instead of in light armor).

I still don't think (any version of) Vow of Poverty fits well with a "proud" character concept. So you'll have to eschew that source of extra AC. Perhaps you can get Bracers of Armor instead; would that be too "magical" for the character?

Edit: One other option is Totemist, depending on whether you think you can change the fluff to make it feel nonmagical enough. (I know you said you couldn't with Psionics, which is totally reasonable.) Wisdom-based, good for melee combatants, and is less dependent than other melee combatants on magic items, because he can fill his body slots with his own soulmelds instead.