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Frosty
2008-01-11, 10:28 AM
Given the assumption that the DM will lower the LA of all LA +1 races to +0, what options does that open up? I mean, I know Catfolk, Goliath, and Mineral Warrior are all good, but what else?

Nebo_
2008-01-11, 10:36 AM
Feral & White Dragonspawn.

SpikeFightwicky
2008-01-11, 11:06 AM
Half-Giant's pretty good if you're going psionic. You get a Con boost to help offshoot HP loss from the LA, and you can use 3d6 damage weapons and get some psionic freebies.

Yeril
2008-01-11, 11:12 AM
Half ogre, +1 LA for a +6 STR, +4 Con, +4 Natural Armor, Large Size and I'd assume some others.

Draz74
2008-01-11, 11:15 AM
Half ogre, +1 LA for a +6 STR, +4 Con, +4 Natural Armor, Large Size and I'd assume some others.

Actually, this has been replaced by the more recent +2 LA version of the Half-Ogre, found in Races of Destiny.

bugsysservant
2008-01-11, 11:15 AM
Didn't the original Half Minotaur grant something like +16 str. and large size? Or am I just hallucinating again?

SpikeFightwicky
2008-01-11, 11:48 AM
Didn't the original Half Minotaur grant something like +16 str. and large size? Or am I just hallucinating again?

A full minotaur only gets +8 str, so I'd say hallucinagens are more likely.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 11:53 AM
What are you smoking, and why aren't you sharing it?

bugsysservant
2008-01-11, 11:56 AM
Well, it wasn't supposed to grant that much, but due to a size increase which stacked bonuses, it ended up with much higher strength than the designers intended. Or so my drug addled mind tells me.

StickMan
2008-01-11, 11:58 AM
Actually, this has been replaced by the more recent +2 LA version of the Half-Ogre, found in Races of Destiny.

Yea but it bites as a LA +2. I like to keep it at the original +1 seeing as how level adjustment is always a major nerf anyway. Also the Half-Ogre art is better in Savage Species meaning it must be better:smallbiggrin:.

bugsysservant
2008-01-11, 12:06 PM
Oops, from my google-fu I came across an entry online that would put the Half-Minotaur Ability increases at +12 Str., +8 Con, large size, and a few other goodies. So I wasn't that stoned. :smallyuk:

Note: if I'm wrong, (and I could be, I don't actually get Dragon) the source to check would be Dragon #313 I believe.

Lolzords
2008-01-11, 12:16 PM
Githzerai, +6 dex +2 wis -2 int and some good psionics (feather fall 3/day is useful) for only +1 LA. Good race.

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-11, 12:18 PM
Well, it wasn't supposed to grant that much, but due to a size increase which stacked bonuses, it ended up with much higher strength than the designers intended. Or so my drug addled mind tells me.

I thought size increases only affected ability scores in 3.0.

What kind of character are you going for, Frosty? Naturally a half-ogre isn't going to make the best wizard ever. (Though it'd be fun)


I'm fond of orcs: +4 str bonus for +0 LA, but since your DM is allowing you to ignore +1 LA, I imagine you're going to feel weak compared to the other players if you don't take advantage of it, so let's see what we can do...

+1 LA: Death-Touched humans (from Dragon Magazine 313) get a -2 con, +2 wis, and +4 charisma, which is just plain nasty for sorcerers (which is their preferred class). Always wanted to play one, but didn't want to have sorc. spell progression AND a level adjustment.

+1 LA: Sharakim (from Races of Destiny) are fun for gishes and skillmonkeys who like to fight. +2 str, +2 int, -2 dex, -2 charisma.

Skulks are from the same book. They get a +4 dex and some crazy hide/move silently bonuses.

I'd check out Crystal Keep. They have a race index on there on pdf. Open up and do a 'find' on "Level Adjustment +1".

Edit:

Oops, from my google-fu I came across an entry online that would put the Half-Minotaur Ability increases at +12 Str., +8 Con, large size, and a few other goodies. So I wasn't that stoned. :smallyuk:

Note: if I'm wrong, (and I could be, I don't actually get Dragon) the source to check would be Dragon #313 I believe.

Minotaurs only have a +8 to str, so I highly doubt half-minotaurs get a +12. The Dragon you refer to had a template for half-minotaur, so depending on what you slapped it on, I imagine it could add up to +12.

Edit #2:
Crystal Keep has template listings too. Half-Minotaur does indeed only have a +1 level adjustment. It's some hot stuff.

BRC
2008-01-11, 12:26 PM
Bugbears are preety good.

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-11, 12:28 PM
Bugbears are preety good.

Bugbears have 3 racial HD though.

Spiryt
2008-01-11, 12:33 PM
Bugbears are preety good.

But they have 3 racial HD, which makes them rather average. When human or something else is 4th level, he has only one class level and 3 levels of humanoid, which aren't better than levels of expert.

EDIT: Of course ninjed.

bugsysservant
2008-01-11, 12:34 PM
Here, to put the question to rest: From Crystal Keep-


Half-Minotaur
(born to one Minotaur parent
& a giant, humanoid, or
monstrous humanoid)
(DR313 p94)
Upper body is
covered with shaggy
hair, while head has
a snout & horns.
Inherited Template
that can be added to
any Small-sized to
Huge-sized Giant,
Humanoid, or
Monstrous
Humanoid.
Usually has a Chaotic
alignment.
Gain Feat: Track.
Natural Armor +2
Str +4
Con +2
Int –2
Wis +2
Lvl +1
if size increases, CR +1
If the Base Creature was of Small or Medium size, its size is
increased by one category, with all the appropriate changes to its
ability scores, etc., plus a +10’ improvement to base movement.
These changes are in addition to the bonuses and penalties listed.
Darkvision 60’.
Gain the Scent ability.
+2 Racial bonus on Search, Spot, & Listen checks.
Gain a 1d6 Gore attack (if Medium).
+4 bonus on checks to escape a Maze spell & always know which
direction is North.
The +4 stacks with the specifically stated size increase for +12. Looks like Half-Ogre is the same

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-11, 12:39 PM
Here, to put the question to rest: From Crystal Keep-
The +4 stacks with the specifically stated size increase for +12. Looks like Half-Ogre is the same

I don't understand how that is becoming +12. Could you explain? (Honest inquiry)

Edit: That is to say, where might one find the rules regarding size increases altering ability scores? I had a discussion with a friend some time back and neither of us were able to locate them leading us to the conclusion that it was a 3.0 rule that was done away with in 3.5.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-11, 12:42 PM
The Dark template in ToM is good times. Hide in Plain Sight, +8 Hide/+6 Move Silently, Cold Resist 5, +10' to all modes of movement, and Darkvision 60', for LA+1.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 01:06 PM
I wonder what the most underpowered +1 race is. Tiefling? Aasimar?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-11, 01:07 PM
The Dark template in ToM is good times. Hide in Plain Sight, +8 Hide/+6 Move Silently, Cold Resist 5, +10' to all modes of movement, and Darkvision 60', for LA+1.

Ah, but that's why we have our collars of umbral metamorphosis ... :smallamused:

Tengu
2008-01-11, 01:08 PM
Githzerai, +6 dex +2 wis -2 int and some good psionics (feather fall 3/day is useful) for only +1 LA. Good race.

I thought Githzerai are LA+2?

And I'd say Goliaths (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5). They are like half-giants, but instead of the psi powers they get +2 strength.


I wonder what the most underpowered +1 race is. Tiefling? Aasimar?

Genasi - any of them. Total stats adding up to +0 and some weak resistances and spell-like abilities? For LA+1? Please...

bugsysservant
2008-01-11, 01:08 PM
I don't understand how that is becoming +12. Could you explain? (Honest inquiry)

Edit: That is to say, where might one find the rules regarding size increases altering ability scores? I had a discussion with a friend some time back and neither of us were able to locate them leading us to the conclusion that it was a 3.0 rule that was done away with in 3.5.

On the Table "Size Increase" Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) Going from medium to large gives +8 str. +4 Con and -2 Dex.

Spiryt
2008-01-11, 01:10 PM
I wonder what the most underpowered +1 race is. Tiefling? Aasimar?

I would say Genasis from Forgotten Realms CS. Certainly not unplayable, but thei bonuses are minor, even compared to Assimars and Tieflings.

SpikeFightwicky
2008-01-11, 01:11 PM
I wonder what the most underpowered +1 race is. Tiefling? Aasimar?

IMO, the Genasi from Forgotten Realms (they're still planetouched, though). They each have a stat bonus, a stat penalty (even bonus and penalty, too... like +2 str, -2 con and such), and a minor ability... all for +1 LA.

Spiryt
2008-01-11, 01:13 PM
On the Table "Size Increase" Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) Going from medium to large gives +8 str. +4 Con and -2 Dex.

This happens when you are enlarging creature magically, or when you want, for example, to have huge bear . This has nothing to do with "normal" creatures.

Like you see - improving monsters.

Sorry for double post, it just happened. Thank you SpikeFightwicky :smallsmile:

Captain van der Decken
2008-01-11, 01:20 PM
What, exactly, makes a half minotaur anything more 'normal' than a huge bear?
:smalltongue:

A creature may become larger when its Hit Dice are increased (the new size is noted parenthetically in the monster’s Advancement entry).

A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below.

I don't see how this isn't applying to creatures that have their size go up through templates and not HD.

Dark Tira
2008-01-11, 01:21 PM
Bariaurs from the Planar Handbook are pretty nice. Quadruped, 40ft land speed, powerful charge, save bonuses, and spell resistance.

bugsysservant
2008-01-11, 01:24 PM
I don't see how this isn't applying to creatures that have their size go up through templates and not HD.

Ordinarily yes, but the line

If the Base Creature was of Small or Medium size, its size is increased by one category, with all the appropriate changes to its ability scores, etc., plus a +10’ improvement to base movement.
alters that somewhat. I spoilered the Crystal Keep entry above, its specified there.

Spiryt
2008-01-11, 01:24 PM
I don't see how this isn't applying to creatures that have their size go up through templates and not HD.

Right, I missed this line


These changes are in addition to the bonuses and penalties listed.

My bad.

Yeril
2008-01-11, 02:04 PM
What kind of character are you going for, Frosty? Naturally a half-ogre isn't going to make the best wizard ever. (Though it'd be fun)

I had a Half-ogre Fighter1/Wizard5/Spellsword1 who was preety awesome, the son of a Ogre Sorceress and a unlucky member of the town watch who just couldn't make the "charm person" willsave.

Avalias he was called, preety nifty too, managed to kill a near epic level rogue/assasin in 3 rounds, well would of if the DM didn't say "yeaaaah.. um.. *poof* shes now got +5 to all saves, immune to all mind effecting abilities and eerr.. SR 32!!"

Hold Person Coup de Grace FTW

SpikeFightwicky
2008-01-11, 02:08 PM
Ordinarily yes, but the line

alters that somewhat. I spoilered the Crystal Keep entry above, its specified there.

I dunno... there seems ALOT of bonuses for just a +1 LA there. For a medium character, you get a grand total of:

Bonus Feat: Track
Natural Armor: +4
Str +12
Dex -2
Con +6
Int –2
Wis +2
-1 attack/AC
+10’ improvement to base movement
Darkvision 60’.
Gain the Scent ability.
+2 Racial bonus on Search, Spot, & Listen checks.
Gain a 1d6 Gore attack (if Medium).
+4 bonus on checks to escape a Maze spell & always know which
direction is North.

That's damn good for just +1 LA. Another weird thing is that monster CR only increase if the size increases. So +4 str, +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Natural armor, darkvision, scent, +10 movement speed and a handful of useful other skill benefits is worth 0 CR adjustment.

marjan
2008-01-11, 02:10 PM
I find Draconic Template very nice LA +1 template. + 2 str, con,cha and +1 NA is nice for paladins, knights, hexblades and similar melee classes that use cha (like samurai:smalltongue: ). And couple of minor benefits.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 02:10 PM
Well I do want someone who can cast competently...

Let's assume that a Gish-style character is what I'm goin for, so Mineral warrior is probably out.

marjan
2008-01-11, 02:11 PM
I dunno... there seems ALOT of bonuses for just a +1 LA there. For a medium character, you get a grand total of:

Bonus Feat: Track
Natural Armor: +4
Str +12
Dex -2
Con +6
Int –2
Wis +2
-1 attack/AC
+10’ improvement to base movement
Darkvision 60’.
Gain the Scent ability.
+2 Racial bonus on Search, Spot, & Listen checks.
Gain a 1d6 Gore attack (if Medium).
+4 bonus on checks to escape a Maze spell & always know which
direction is North.

That's damn good for just +1 LA. Another weird thing is that monster CR only increase if the size increases. So +4 str, +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Natural armor, darkvision, scent, +10 movement speed and a handful of useful other skill benefits is worth 0 CR adjustment.

Those are the reasons this is considered way too powerful.

bugsysservant
2008-01-11, 02:14 PM
I dunno... there seems ALOT of bonuses for just a +1 LA there. For a medium character, you get a grand total of:

Bonus Feat: Track
Natural Armor: +4
Str +12
Dex -2
Con +6
Int –2
Wis +2
-1 attack/AC
+10’ improvement to base movement
Darkvision 60’.
Gain the Scent ability.
+2 Racial bonus on Search, Spot, & Listen checks.
Gain a 1d6 Gore attack (if Medium).
+4 bonus on checks to escape a Maze spell & always know which
direction is North.

That's damn good for just +1 LA. Another weird thing is that monster CR only increase if the size increases. So +4 str, +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Natural armor, darkvision, scent, +10 movement speed and a handful of useful other skill benefits is worth 0 CR adjustment.

There is a reason that its cited as to why Dragon shouldn't be allowed in Optimization/versus threads. It is obscenely broken, but by RAW, unless I am wrong, thats what you get.

TK-Squared
2008-01-11, 02:30 PM
I dunno... there seems ALOT of bonuses for just a +1 LA there. For a medium character, you get a grand total of:

Bonus Feat: Track
Natural Armor: +4
Str +12
Dex -2
Con +6
Int –2
Wis +2
-1 attack/AC
+10’ improvement to base movement
Darkvision 60’.
Gain the Scent ability.
+2 Racial bonus on Search, Spot, & Listen checks.
Gain a 1d6 Gore attack (if Medium).
+4 bonus on checks to escape a Maze spell & always know which
direction is North.

That's damn good for just +1 LA. Another weird thing is that monster CR only increase if the size increases. So +4 str, +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Natural armor, darkvision, scent, +10 movement speed and a handful of useful other skill benefits is worth 0 CR adjustment.

What's worse is that the Half-Ogre just above it is LA +0 if you do not get a size increase. Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre Something.

Person_Man
2008-01-11, 02:46 PM
I'm a big fan of racial classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). Drow and Half Fey are quite useful.

Kioran
2008-01-11, 03:12 PM
I had a Half-ogre Fighter1/Wizard5/Spellsword1 who was preety awesome, the son of a Ogre Sorceress and a unlucky member of the town watch who just couldn't make the "charm person" willsave.

Avalias he was called, preety nifty too, managed to kill a near epic level rogue/assasin in 3 rounds, well would of if the DM didn't say "yeaaaah.. um.. *poof* shes now got +5 to all saves, immune to all mind effecting abilities and eerr.. SR 32!!"

Hold Person Coup de Grace FTW

That wasn´t the entire truth though - he ganged up on that npc with a Dread necro who had a familiar made out purest gouda. Don´t ask me what it was, anyway, the familiar paralyzed her and the Half-ogre wanted to administer the CDG.
The DM handled it unprofessionaly though - instead of whining and saving the rouge, he should have let her lvl 20 Wizard companion anihilate the cheesemaster and the ogre with a quickened enervation + empowered split ray enervation. Fair´s fair, cheese against cheese for the win!

Anyway, that Half-Minotaur is positively sick. Skulks are okay two - they get 2d6 Sneak Attack if I remember correctly, as well as having two monstrous humanoid HD on top of their LA +1. Seems an okay choice to me........

Sonofaspectre
2008-01-11, 03:29 PM
I am a big fan of the Jaebrin from Monster Manual V, for a Charisma spell-caster. Make great Beguilers, Bards, etc.

Shishnarfne
2008-01-11, 03:44 PM
I wonder what the most underpowered +1 race is. Tiefling? Aasimar?

I'll take Blue Goblin, from XPH (actually, in two different spots in the entry it is listed as +0 and +1, the stat block is +0, the instructions for characters list +1, at least in my print edition, though it should be in the SRD).

+2 Int
1 bonus pp.
Small size (and all that entails)
+4 ride and move silently (goblin racials)
30 ft. move speed
Darkvision

All for the low, low price of -2 Str and -2 Cha.

I played one, and got the DM to waive the +1 down to a +0. Yes, an overall negative modifier, and a +1 level adjustment for small size, 1 bonus pp, moving faster than normal for small size, and the goblin racial skill bonuses to ride and move silently. This is what I've seen quoted as one of the worse LA +1... it's hands down worse than either Aasimar or Tiefling... probably worse than the hobgoblin, even (+2 Dex and Con, with some small skill bonuses).

Chronicled
2008-01-11, 04:18 PM
I'm surprised that no-one's mentioned the duergar as one of the top +1 races yet.

SurlySeraph
2008-01-11, 08:44 PM
@^: Duergar are pretty good, but the Mineral Warrior and Dark templates are ridiculously good.

Sornjss Lichdom
2008-01-11, 08:51 PM
I suppose it's only a template, but I like the Shadowwalker Template from UE in FR campaign. It's a +1 LA but it still cost you 2000 gold pieces, but it has some of the most useful abilities I've ever seen.

The_Snark
2008-01-11, 08:54 PM
I'll take Blue Goblin, from XPH (actually, in two different spots in the entry it is listed as +0 and +1, the stat block is +0, the instructions for characters list +1, at least in my print edition, though it should be in the SRD).

+2 Int
1 bonus pp.
Small size (and all that entails)
+4 ride and move silently (goblin racials)
30 ft. move speed
Darkvision

All for the low, low price of -2 Str and -2 Cha.

I played one, and got the DM to waive the +1 down to a +0. Yes, an overall negative modifier, and a +1 level adjustment for small size, 1 bonus pp, moving faster than normal for small size, and the goblin racial skill bonuses to ride and move silently. This is what I've seen quoted as one of the worse LA +1... it's hands down worse than either Aasimar or Tiefling... probably worse than the hobgoblin, even (+2 Dex and Con, with some small skill bonuses).

The Inspired empty vessel from Ebberon is a close contender. Much like the blue, they're a psionic version of a normal human, and in addition to normal human traits, they get... some minor bonuses to interaction skills, 1 power point, and a bonus on Disguise checks to pass themselves off as humans.

Which, of course, they could have done as humans anyway. At least the Blue gets an increase to Intelligence—the only reason the empty vessel isn't far worse is that human traits are a lot better than goblin traits to begin with.

EvilElitest
2008-01-11, 08:57 PM
can we have a list here?
from
EE

Chronicled
2008-01-12, 01:09 AM
@^: Duergar are pretty good, but the Mineral Warrior and Dark templates are ridiculously good.

Technically, those aren't races... :smalltongue:

Iudex Fatarum
2008-01-12, 01:28 AM
I am trying currently to redo aasimar and tiefling so that they don't stink. I hope that I can also work out a way of making Genasi together too.

goken04
2008-01-12, 03:26 AM
The Dark template in ToM is good times. Hide in Plain Sight, +8 Hide/+6 Move Silently, Cold Resist 5, +10' to all modes of movement, and Darkvision 60', for LA+1.

Dark Whisper Gnomes FTW!

SoD
2008-01-12, 03:32 AM
Actually, slightly off topic, but in the Crystal Keep (probably outdated by now) there's one race in there that's listed as having a level adjustment of -2...that's a typo, right? I forget their name, but they're the rediculously weak blue guys from Baldurs Gate.

F.L.
2008-01-12, 09:15 AM
Xvarts. You know, the smurf alikes. (aside from not talking about xvarting this or that)

Though I think they've been errata'd or corrected to a proper +0.