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Albonor
2008-01-11, 02:10 PM
My sister is starting a new character ( she already played with it for two sessions) in a friends game and wanted to both fight and cast arcane spells. Since she is rather new at DnD I proposed her to build her a character that would do that.

My friend and I argued between the Spellsword and the EK but I thought that the better spell progression was better that the armor and channel spell.

Now, for flavor, she is a human barbarian 1 /sorceror 2. Her stats are Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 16 (35 PB). She fights with a greatsword and of course doesn't wear armor. Since they use core-only except for the PrC, I was wondering wich spells and feats she sould choose as she goes up in levels (sorcerors only until she goes EK). She already has mage armor and shield as well as combat expertise, power attack and dodge.

Suggestions?

Keld Denar
2008-01-11, 02:37 PM
I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but that is a pretty rough starting mix for a wannabe gish (gish is a githyanki term for fighter-mage). The problem with barbarian is that you can't rage AND cast spells at the same time, unless you take levels in the Rage Mage pclass, which unfortunately was really really horribly thought out (it really sucks).

Also, you CAN have both EK and SS in a build. In fact, a lot of people use SS as a stepping stone into EK since EK requires 3rd level spells, and SS only requires 2nd level spells.

Common builds tend toward:
ftr1/wiz4/SS1/EK10/something is pretty standard
pal2/sor5/SS1/EK10/something has nice cha synergy

or if you have Complete Mage, Abjurant Champion is great
ftr1/wiz4/SS1/EK2/AC5/EK7

Good feats are Power Attack, Arcane Strike (CA), Minor Shapeshift (CM), Mobile Spellcasting (CM), Combat Casting (PHB, required for AC)

Otherwise, if you have PHBII, the Duskblade is pretty straight forward. Take it for all 20 levels and it stays interesting.

Good spells at low levels are:
1st
Grease
Ray of Enfeeblement
Lesser Orb of <insert elemental here>
Nerveskitter
Benign Transposition (the poor gish's pounce)
Mage Armor (replace with mith chain shirt once you get SS1

2nd
Wraithstrike (for power attacking)
Whirling Blade (the gish's gunblade)

3rd
Fly
Haste

That's a pretty good start. There are some spells if you look through PHBII and SC they are pretty easy to pick out. Any other questions?

GL!

Wordmiser
2008-01-11, 02:52 PM
What she'll probably want will probably be along the lines of Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9.

This will be a playable build all around; not being too squishy at low levels and still having some tricks up its sleeve later on.

For spells:
Enlarge Person should be high on the list, it's a good one.
Mirror Image, Fly, Haste and Greater Invisibility are all nice choices for higher level spells.
Other buffs are good. No-save deuffs (the necromancy waves) are good. No-save Rays are good. Utility is good if you she doesn't have a Wizard covering that bit.
Polymorph is either a given or is illegal. Either way, it's a very strong spell.

Just avoid spells with effects directly tied to caster level or spell level (damage spells, anything which requires a save, most summoning spells).

For Feats:
Improved Trip is golden.
Improved Sunder is handy.
...Actually, all of the "Improved X" feats open new options and her BAB should never be too bad to use them.
Extend Spell might be worthwhile; probably won't though.
Combat Reflexes if she does any "tanking."
If she takes any offensive spells, Spell Penetration would be useful.


She could beg and whine and plead for Practiced Spellcaster (CArc/CDiv), Arcane Strike (CWar) and Rapid Metamagic (CMag) [followed by Quicken Spell]. Or maybe even Extra Rage or Improved Toughness (CWar). Doesn't sound like any of those are happening, though.

Person_Man
2008-01-11, 03:13 PM
I've seen many players struggle with Warrior/Magic User builds going all the way back to first ed. Unless you really know what you're doing, they should generally be avoided. Otherwise you just end up with mediocre hit point, ac, BAB, damage, and a bunch of weak spells which are far less useful once you hit higher levels.

The trick to any Gish build that you play in a real campaign is for it to be playable at every level. Waiting for some magic combo to kick in at ECL 15ish when you finally get access to 5th level spells isn't going to work.

So here are some good options I know about. There are many more I didn't even bother listing.

1) Duskblade: Full BAB, moderate caster progression, offensive spell list. Very high damage output.

2) Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor): Allows Rangers or Paladins to use their spell slots to memorize Wizard spells. Highly flexible, and they require little or no prestige class use.

3) Full BAB Class 5/Full BAB Fast Caster PrC 10: There are tons of PrC out there that offer combat ability and fast caster progression, like the Blackguard, Corrupt Avenger, Suel Arcanamach, etc. They're great for mid-level campaigns, but tend to lose their value after ECL 15, since their caster levels stop progressing. If you happen to be playing at exactly ECL 11, then an Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 is a great deal.

4) Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) 1/Whatever X with Master Spellthief feat (Complete Scoundrel): Master Spellthief lets your Spellthief levels stack with any other arcane caster class for the purpose of determining what spell level you can steal. For example, a Spellthief 1/Dushblade 5 can steal 3rd level spells. The Steal Spell ability also allows you to take spells from willing subjects, which works phenomenally well if you have Wizards/Clerics/etc in the party.

5) Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3): Can memorize any divine spell, including domain spells. This gives them access to many useful arcane spells as well.

6) Some weird Wizard/Abjurant Champion/PrC/PrC combo. There are a ton of them floating around on the web.

TheThan
2008-01-11, 03:25 PM
For a total newb you’re going to want to go with the simplest build you can muster. That would probably be a duskblade. They get combat ability and spells all rolled into one easy to use package.

Albonor
2008-01-11, 03:34 PM
For a total newb you’re going to want to go with the simplest build you can muster. That would probably be a duskblade. They get combat ability and spells all rolled into one easy to use package.

I would agree but since it is only PHB DMG and MM for everything but the PrC, I had to go with a standart martial class. Spellsword is curently out, even for a single level because Barb don't get heavy armor, which is a prerequisite. I will check out Abjurant Champion but yes, simpler is better.

The party consist of a wizard, a cleric and an elven fighter/rogue. Her curent strategy is to cast shield on top of the always active mage armor and enter rage. If she cannot rage, she goes out to take care of the casters.

Thank you for the comments so far, keep it coming!

Thinker
2008-01-11, 04:20 PM
I would agree but since it is only PHB DMG and MM for everything but the PrC, I had to go with a standart martial class. Spellsword is curently out, even for a single level because Barb don't get heavy armor, which is a prerequisite. I will check out Abjurant Champion but yes, simpler is better.

The party consist of a wizard, a cleric and an elven fighter/rogue. Her curent strategy is to cast shield on top of the always active mage armor and enter rage. If she cannot rage, she goes out to take care of the casters.

Thank you for the comments so far, keep it coming!

Since she hasn't really played it much would they allow her to change from barbarian to fighter? The barbarian's primary class feature is somewhat wasted if she wants to use her sorcerer's primary class feature and vice versa.

Wordmiser
2008-01-11, 04:55 PM
What she'll probably want will probably be along the lines of Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9...
You fool! You don't qualify for Spellsword. Switch that second Barbarian level for a Fighter dip, then all will be well.

F.L.
2008-01-11, 05:11 PM
Hmm, can you work with the following:

Human Barb 1 Sor 2 Ftr 1 Sor 2 Ragemage 2 Spellsword 1 EK 10 etc.
Feats: 1: Power Attack, _ Bloodline (for extra spells known)
3: Practiced spellcaster (CArc, wind up with full caster level)
5: Max ranks in intimidate by this point, and take Resounding Blow
(BOED, and very useful for this build)
6+: ???

Rage mage = cast while raged
Spellsword + rage mage = ignore ASF on mithral twilight full plate

grr, ninja'd

UserClone
2008-01-11, 05:17 PM
Why do you keep Excepting Eldritch Knight from core? Is it mysteriously omitted from your copy of the DMG? Personally, I think you should ask your DM about the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) (From the Wizards' Website).

Albonor
2008-01-11, 05:28 PM
I wasn't refering to the Eldrich Knight when mentioning the PrC outside of Core, only mentionning that Prc Are the only thing that could come from outside of Core. Like Spellsword for instance...

Wordmiser
2008-01-11, 05:29 PM
Why do you keep Excepting Eldritch Knight from core? Is it mysteriously omitted from your copy of the DMG? I think he's refering to the Spellsword.

But a slightly tangential question:

Rage mage = cast while raged
I can't tell from the way the class ability is worded: Can the Rage Mage cast spells while Raging (as the Barbarian class feature)?

If so, what's the point of the "Spell Rage X/day" Rage Mage ability?

If not, what's the point of taking Rage Mage over Eldritch Knight (Grabbing Improved Toughness with your Bonus feat and Extra Rage with the one you didn't spend on Combat Casting)?

[Edit:] Wait, do you mean that more non-core Prestige classes than the Spellsword are allowed? Or just the SS?

Albonor
2008-01-11, 05:37 PM
Does the "not casting while raging" have that much of an impact? I mean: it is once a day, for 7 rounds. I had chosen Barbarian over Fighter because of the fast movement, extra skill points, better hp at first level and the fact that an eldrich knight would not need heavy armor...

The rage seemed like an extra option, a way to bring more hurting to the enemies when the warrior part of the character was to be put in front of the casting: you don't start the fight with it, but it sure will finish it!

F.L.
2008-01-11, 05:47 PM
Well, at l.1, the rage mage can cast spells while raging. The l.5 spell rage ability adds 2 to the dc of spells cast while raging.

And also, I cannot recommend resounding blow more. When you crit an enemy, they then have to make a dc (10+level/2+CHA) will save, or cower, which renders them helpless. And it's not especially well defined as a fear effect, it may effect more enemies than fear. And it's not even an exalted feat, but a general feat. Plus, CHA synergy, of course (recommended weapon: falchion).

UserClone
2008-01-11, 06:07 PM
Ah. Well in that case, ambiguity aside, I will again recommend the Swiftblade(see link in above post for info).

Iku Rex
2008-01-11, 06:20 PM
Spells (up to level 10 sorcerer casting)

1st (5):
Mage Armor, Shield - AC is good
Ray of Enfeeblement - Can do as much for her as shield against a single opponent, and it helps the entire party.
Enlarge Person - More damage, better trip, grapple ... decent buff.
True Strike - Not that useful and can be replaced. Use maximum Power Attack and Combat Expertise to get maximum effect.

2nd (4):
Alter Self - Must-have if it's allowed. Can provide AC (troglodyte, +6), swim speed, natural attacks (bite in addition to weapon) and skill bonuses. Summary of humanoid forms from the SRD here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=176246 . Can be cast before battle.
False Life - Simple way to get "preemptive healing". Can be cast before battle.
Invisibility - Good way to get away from a bad situation, help the rogue, or let the entire party bypass a problem.
Resist Energy - Nice to have available in a pinch. Can be cast before battle. She may want to leave it to the wizard or cleric though, since it's not a spell you need in every battle. (Alternate: Glitterdust)

3rd (3):
Heroism - Basic buff. Stacks with most spells and items. Can be cast before battle.
Haste - Lets her buff herself and help the party both. Very useful.
Blink - Offense, defense, mobility - blink has it all.

4th (2):
Polymorph - Arguably overpowered, but shouldn't be that big a deal for a newbie with Core only and a somewhat sub-optimal build. Best forms are troll, annis hag, treant and stone giant. And of course the infamous hydra.
Dimension Door - Basic utility spell. (Alternate: Stoneskin.)

5th (1): Overland Flight - Lasts 1 hour/level. Simple, reliable buff that adds a lot of options in combat.

Feat suggestions:
Improved Trip - With Enlarge Person this becomes an excellent feat against Small and Medium opponents. Even Large opponents can be susceptible if she softens them up with Ray of Enfeeblement first. Throw in a treant polymorph and it gets ugly...

Combat Reflexes - She'll want better Dex (item) to take full advantage, but with a reach weapon and/or Enlarge or Polymorph AoOs will be plentiful.

Cleave - Will see use on a regular basis. Decent if she's in doubt.

Improved Disarm - Enlarge + 2-handed weapon = good bonus. With True Strike she can grab almost any weapon from the hand(s) of an opponent.

Empower Spell - Not really necessary, but can be used with Ray of Enfeeblement and False Life. More of an "I can't think of anything else" kind of feat.


The barbarian level isn't a problem. Buff, then enter melee and rage.