PDA

View Full Version : Nobody likes you OR your lute.



Eriol
2008-01-11, 03:40 PM
This was the title of a recent blog post by Coyote. He's an EQ2 player and community member, and his blog is DEFINITELY pg-13 (or higher), but he's also f'n hilarious. Anyways, this article is pretty funny IMO to anybody who plays any type of RPG, be it CRPG, tabletop, or whatever and their game has a "bard" of any type: Nobody likes you OR your lute. (http://coyote.blogs.tentonhammer.com/?p=449)

Enjoy.

KIDS
2008-01-11, 04:08 PM
I play two bards and love them, but I totally feel his pain. LOL, nice article :smallsmile:

Morty
2008-01-11, 04:13 PM
Looks like this guy is stuck in "bard=idiot with a lute" archetype and hates whole class because of this. I don't see how this whole article is anything more than angry rant by someone who pretends to be sarcastic and ironic. Unless I'm missing some hidden meaning here.

Fhaolan
2008-01-11, 04:16 PM
Forget the lute. A *real* bard plays a double bass.

Mark Hall
2008-01-11, 04:23 PM
Forget the lute. A *real* bard plays a double bass.

Which means once I learn how to mine for fish, I'll get rich selling them to real bards!

Besides, bards have a "hidden" class feature at 17th level that makes them worthwhile to get that high. I'd post a link, but it's very NSFW. :smallbiggrin:

EndgamerAzari
2008-01-11, 04:27 PM
Ahahah.... you saw that too? With the one illustration, by Fredrik Andersson...?

Mark Hall
2008-01-11, 04:59 PM
Ahahah.... you saw that too? With the one illustration, by Fredrik Andersson...?

Saw it? I MADE it, Azari! ;-)

Wooter
2008-01-11, 04:59 PM
Which means once I learn how to mine for fish,
Besides, bards have a "hidden" class feature at 17th level that makes them worthwhile to get that high. I'd post a link, but it's very NSFW. :smallbiggrin:

Damn my insatiable curiosity! That, coupled with the family oriented rule set of this site, will surely be my undoing.

Altair_the_Vexed
2008-01-11, 06:19 PM
Okay, so the article is a bit focused on the stereotypical bard... but it is the only class stereotype that really feels inherently silly.
The beardy old guy in a pointy hat who twists the arcane forces to his will? Not silly. The plate armoured knight with a shiny sword? Not silly. And so on.

If you have to move away from the standard stereotype of a class just to avoid being ridiculous, then it's a bit of silly class.
The fact that bards aren't that impressive outside of one-on-one play doesn't help.

Maybe we do need a skillmonkey partial caster. But does it have to be the damn bard?

Mark Hall
2008-01-11, 06:32 PM
Okay, so the article is a bit focused on the stereotypical bard... but it is the only class stereotype that really feels inherently silly.
The beardy old guy in a pointy hat who twists the arcane forces to his will? Not silly. The plate armoured knight with a shiny sword? Not silly. And so on.

It depends on how you phrase them.

"Pointy-hatted old guy who shouts funny words and throws bat poop at people" sounds just as ridiculous. If you phrase a bard as "Someone who uses their magically-empowered persuasive ability to control the morale of their friends and enemies" they seem a lot less silly.


Maybe we do need a skillmonkey partial caster. But does it have to be the damn bard?

I somewhat I agree, actually. As much as I like the bard, I frequently find myself wanting to play a bard who has everything but bardic music... wanting to trade that feature in for something else, because it doesn't fit my conception of the character. While I like the bard, and think it can work as a base class (something on par with the Marshall, depending on how you describe it), I'd like to see the "partial caster skill monkey" idea expanded on.

marjan
2008-01-11, 06:47 PM
...even though they have differences in political affiliations, loyalties, and religious beliefs, it could be worse.

They could be a frigging Bard. With a lute.

Ok. This is priceless.



As much as I like the bard, I frequently find myself wanting to play a bard who has everything but bardic music...

Try Beguiler then. They are much better.

Mark Hall
2008-01-11, 07:13 PM
Try Beguiler then. They are much better.

Not what I want, but close.

marjan
2008-01-11, 07:17 PM
Not what I want, but close.

Spellthief?

Mark Hall
2008-01-11, 07:39 PM
Spellthief?

Still too specific. The Factotum gets closer.

The_Werebear
2008-01-11, 08:20 PM
I like Bards in everything but flavor. Most bards I do are oratory based, and rather than singing at people, they are motivational mercenaries who have been everywhere and done everything, including learn magic, stealth, leadership, and picked up enough random knowledge to stand a good chance at knowing anything.

The one bard I did who used an instrument was a fiddler who joined an adventuring party out of desperation because he needed several thousand GP to prevent loan sharks from breaking his knees. That, and he talked with his fiddle, so a few strings short of a full harp.

Fhaolan
2008-01-11, 09:02 PM
Which means once I learn how to mine for fish, I'll get rich selling them to real bards!


Double Rock Bass, that's the ticket. Carp is for sissies. :smallsmile:

Mark Hall
2008-01-11, 09:30 PM
Double Rock Bass, that's the ticket. Carp is for sissies. :smallsmile:

So all the people who carp about bards are sissies? Isn't saying things like that against the rules? :smallbiggrin:

Jalor
2008-01-11, 09:43 PM
This guy apparently obviously hasn't met my lvl 23 CE bard/barbarian, Ozzy.

Aquillion
2008-01-11, 10:49 PM
You know, a bard can use any valid usage of the perform skill to power their abilities. And the perform skill is, even per RAW, much more broad than most people think it is. It covers:

Act (comedy, drama, mime)
Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling)
Dance (ballet, waltz, jig)
Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ)
Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling)
Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong)
String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin)
Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, shawm, trumpet)
Sing (ballad, chant, melody)

...yes, you can have a Bard focused in Perform (Oratory). Or Perform (comedy), if you want... although the Oratory bard would be the most fun... you could be a revolutionary leader or something like that.

EndgamerAzari
2008-01-11, 11:29 PM
Saw it? I MADE it, Azari! ;-)

Ha-HAH! High five!

So you've participate in the RPG.net poster thread then, eh? I'll keep an eye out for you.

Mark Hall
2008-01-11, 11:33 PM
Ha-HAH! High five!

So you've participate in the RPG.net poster thread then, eh? I'll keep an eye out for you.

As here, prior to being known as "Mark Hall" I was known as "MrNexx".

My most recent poster is Jesus riding a luck dragon.

-Cor-
2008-01-12, 12:36 AM
Meh... I chuckled.

Still, home-boy should keep in mind that some of us actually enjoy other aspects of games besides the wars and the killing of monsters and the hey hey with the pointy end.

Some of us like social encounters where a winning smile and saucy tale just might get us past those gate guards without a fight saving our resources for later.

Some of us like the idea of having someone along who thinks it's a really good idea to write down what happened and tell stories and write songs about it therefore immortalizing us and our deeds forever.

Some of us want to be comforted by the campfire by the forlorn sound of solitary flute. And if that heals us a couple of hit-points in the bargain... more's the better.

Some of us like it that when we've been challenged to find out everything we can about the 5th son of a king that lived 1000 years ago in a far off land on another continent, there might be someone around who knows about it. Especially if they knowledge keeps a plague from spreading/dragon from attacking/group of barmaids from leaving.

But meh... *shrug*... to each his own.

Eriol
2008-01-12, 12:41 AM
Looks like this guy is stuck in "bard=idiot with a lute" archetype and hates whole class because of this. I don't see how this whole article is anything more than angry rant by someone who pretends to be sarcastic and ironic. Unless I'm missing some hidden meaning here.
This guy's blog is always like this on every topic. Way over the top, meant to be, kidding almost the whole way. He likes to "tweak" topics this far, and usually succeeds well. Take it in that context.

Edit: I didn't realize he'd done a follow-up on the main gaming site he's part of. Twenty Things *I* Would Do If I Were Dumb Enough To Be A Bard (http://www.eq2.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=1304) The first 3 are especially good IMO, so here they are quoted together, since they run together:

1) I would not play a lute, I would play an AXE. Not a slang term for guitar, but an actual battle axe with strings running up and down it. Sure it would suck and sound like hell, but when people came over to see it and went "WOW, an AXE-Lute!" I could cut off their head.

2) I would dress like Gene Simmons from Kiss. Now I know that doesn't sound intimidating to YOU, but if I'm a Bard it's what? 1712? People in 1712 were scared of EVERYTHING and a giant painted mime spitting blood in high heeled boots would freak the living hell out of them. Then I'd cut off their head with my axe guitar.

3) I'd become a serial killer. I'd torment the masses by killing people and doing sick and depraved and at times cannibalistic things to their corpse. Then I'd leave a tiny little lute next to the body for the police to find. I'd do this until the entire world was in fear, that way when I went into battle with my group of adventurers and pulled out my lute? They'd be tricked into thinking that I was a psychotic killer who dined on human flesh instead of just a Bard.
Enjoy all.

hylian chozo
2008-01-12, 01:39 AM
I once had a bard that played the Clockwork Electric Axe Guitar, it did extra electricity damage whenever he attacked. The player also brought his ipod and played eye of the tiger during every battle.

Rockphed
2008-01-12, 01:54 AM
Why don't bards have a "Stop the party from being stabbed in the face" song?

tyckspoon
2008-01-12, 02:04 AM
Why don't bards have a "Stop the party from being stabbed in the face" song?

Neverwinter Nights 2 bards have a couple; one of the standard Inspirations (auras) grants AC, and one of the special songs that actually takes a Bardic Music use gives DR 5/- for (I think) Cha mod rounds. NWN2 has a pretty nifty bard. It'd be awesome if the game's NPC AI didn't suck so hard.

skywalker
2008-01-12, 02:40 AM
Good, funny article. Only quasi-serious, but also some serious truth there. Previous posters are right, an oratory bard would be cooler than a musician, because an oratory bard doesn't have hands full with an instrument, and so is free to wield weapons.

I think he does grossly underestimate the place of music in war, however. There is a place for the bard in the typical fantasy setting, although not on the player character level of visibility or fun. While of course many heroes want songs sung about them, it's not very fun(for most players) to be the one doing the singing. So I think that might have something to do with the bard's low popularity. I've had many bard cohorts, but only one bard as a fellow PC.

The D&D bard, in particular, suffers from an identity crisis as a collection of scoundrelous archetypes. Half-sneaky, half-womanizer, half-caster, half-musician. You wind up trying to stuff four halves into one whole. Not a pretty picture.

Mark Hall
2008-01-12, 03:59 AM
The D&D bard, in particular, suffers from an identity crisis as a collection of scoundrelous archetypes. Half-sneaky, half-womanizer, half-caster, half-musician. You wind up trying to stuff four halves into one whole. Not a pretty picture.


That's why they're super-powerful! It's like they're two characters! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, if you want fun in battle, get a bunch of level 1 bards and give them bagpipes. Their music WILL be heard.

Kioran
2008-01-12, 04:12 AM
Seriously, I don´t like the rest of his column, but this one´s right on the money - the bard stereotype sucks, hard, even if they are mechanically sound/useful in some systems. Hell, my character poking fun at the most annoying things in popular culture/DnD is "Carlos Ximenez, Drow Mariachi" , combining the then-current wave of pseudo-mexican stuff coming over from the states with the most annoying class and the most overrated racial fluff ever in a CG-package to make any Paladin beg for smite Chaos.......Oh yeah.

Jayngfet
2008-01-12, 04:28 AM
he seems to have forgotten Gimble, the example gnome bard, who had Two kinves, and You'd be mad not to appreciate a decent buff, or does he think potions are just for healing, and a ring of jumping is just a fancy hoop. and not every bard plays a fat banjo, bards have there useless moments, when you wish you had a different arcane caster or a barbarian dual wielding fist sized D12's OF DOOM though in an urban adventure like the ones I run make a high charisma type guy a valuble a bit more use.

Kami2awa
2008-01-12, 05:38 AM
Forget the lute. A *real* bard plays a double bass.

Or a grand piano with Shrink Item cast on it.

Roderick_BR
2008-01-12, 05:52 AM
“But Coyote, I can play inspirational music with magical effects during combat!

Really? Nice! Do you have a “Makes the party impervious to being stabbed in the face” song?

“No.”

They used to have "Mage Armor" in 3.0, but WotC took it out in 3.5 =P
Considering that bardic spells are considered a form of "spell music", his spellcasting IS considered part of his music stuff. Not counting stuff like Blink and the like.

The guy just doesn't like the music bit, and the fact that bards are not fullcasters like wizards and clerics. Classic rant.

Btw, he commented on Aquaman. Obviously that's the Superfriends Aquaman.
"Everybody says, 'It's just the fish guy, he's easy to take care off'. Keep thinking that, while I keep piling up the bodies." - Comic book Aquaman.

Renx
2008-01-12, 08:47 AM
Meh. Penn&Teller is better. He has some actual reasons for his bard-hate (shared in the comments), and after reviewing the class in 3.5 the Bard IS pretty useless.

His second article, however, was utter bull excrement. Trying to impress American modern-day idiocies on any game world just isn't funny. Classic retard.


Btw, he commented on Aquaman. Obviously that's the Superfriends Aquaman.
"Everybody says, 'It's just the fish guy, he's easy to take care off'. Keep thinking that, while I keep piling up the bodies." - Comic book Aquaman.

Yeah, he kicked Namor's ass so he's not all that useless.

skywalker
2008-01-12, 02:05 PM
he seems to have forgotten Gimble, the example gnome bard, who had Two kinves, and You'd be mad not to appreciate a decent buff, or does he think potions are just for healing, and a ring of jumping is just a fancy hoop. and not every bard plays a fat banjo, bards have there useless moments, when you wish you had a different arcane caster or a barbarian dual wielding fist sized D12's OF DOOM though in an urban adventure like the ones I run make a high charisma type guy a valuble a bit more use.


Gimble makes the bard worse, not better. Who is gimble? He's a sneaky musician gnome who always looks way too tall for his race. I have always found Gimble thoroughly unimpressive.

I also played a "d12 of doom" barbarian in an urban campaign and he was the most useful character.

malagigi
2008-01-12, 03:15 PM
I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again, WotC has embraced stereotypes that have rendered the bard a joke. They've equated bard with rebellious rock star or actor, thus completely divorcing them from their roll in Celtic society (you know, where the term bard comes from).

It seems to me, WotC wanted a core class to keep the rogue company, so Bards aren't allowed to be lawful. That single choice keeps bards from being the lore keepers, effectively 'the law' in a medieval society, rendering their roll in society moot, and their roll in combat absurd.

The crazy thing is equating performers with deviants is hilarious, coming from a role playing game, where assuming a role is an inherent part of the hobby.

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-12, 03:20 PM
Very funny, but stupid article.

Bard not good at combat? Think Cyrano de Bergerac and you are getting an impression...no need to use lute, drums or flute. :smallcool:

- Giacomo

horseboy
2008-01-13, 03:16 AM
Lucky him he's an MMO player and he's never had to deal with the bard player. You all know the one. He takes perform(puppetry) and flaps his hand constantly to try and maintain the "performance" or perform(Oratory) and won't stop talking the whole time for the same reason. All always played by the person with the worst BO at the convention. It's enough to make you want to dismember someone and stuff them in your zuca.

I know D&D is a Very Silly game, but bard players are some of the Most Silly...
Dah! I'm about to have a Boglin moment.