PDA

View Full Version : Would this make Dervish too good?



Frosty
2008-01-11, 06:10 PM
A few simple changes to the Dervish that I think makes sense:

1 - Dervish bonuses not limited to scimitar. Any slashing weapon works. Requirement changed to be weapon focus (any slashing weapon) instead

2 - Thousand cuts ability is not limited to once per day. Can be re-charged by meditating as a standard action (that does not provoke) or by expending a swift action to meditate and then following up with a melee attack (or full-attack)

zaei
2008-01-11, 06:22 PM
A few simple changes to the Dervish that I think makes sense:

1 - Dervish bonuses not limited to scimitar. Any slashing weapon works. Requirement changed to be weapon focus (any slashing weapon) instead

2 - Thousand cuts ability is not limited to once per day. Can be re-charged by meditating as a standard action (that does not provoke) or by expending a swift action to meditate and then following up with a melee attack (or full-attack)

My Thri-Kreen TWFing Dervish MWFs you with two scythes for two full attacks every other round, while you have to move/standard action attack me every round.

Benejeseret
2008-01-11, 06:29 PM
Would need to limit slashing weapons to at least those of a given size...otherwise monkey grip finally becomes useful allowing you to wield 2 glaives for only -4 to hit as the second slashing weapon is conscidered light with twf.

Skyserpent
2008-01-11, 06:30 PM
A few simple changes to the Dervish that I think makes sense:

1 - Dervish bonuses not limited to scimitar. Any slashing weapon works. Requirement changed to be weapon focus (any slashing weapon) instead

2 - Thousand cuts ability is not limited to once per day. Can be re-charged by meditating as a standard action (that does not provoke) or by expending a swift action to meditate and then following up with a melee attack (or full-attack)

Short answer: yes.

Long Answer: Yes, but not compared to Spellcasters, but that's a given. The second ability is solidly broken for the reason given above. Being able to recover it every other round without any chance of interruption... psychotic. What made you think the Dervish needed fixing anyway?

Frosty
2008-01-11, 06:40 PM
Being able to recover it every other round without any chance of interruption... psychotic.

Same mechanic as how a Warblade would recover the maneuver that allows him to perform two full-round attacks, and the Warblade doesn't even need to be in a specific stance to do it. your point?

Well, you could try to make an argument that the Warblade is overpowered, but I'm not sure anybody here really thinks that.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 06:41 PM
My Thri-Kreen TWFing Dervish MWFs you with two scythes for two full attacks every other round, while you have to move/standard action attack me every round.

Or meanwhile, the enemy casts Wail of the Banshee on you or Charges you for a few hundred damage :p

That said, Thri-Kreen is cool. You still have that level adjustment however.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-01-11, 07:02 PM
The Dervish is one of the very few PrC's (and classes overall) that don't need fixing. The scimitars are for flavor, plain and simple =) . It takes TWF and not only makes it viable, but it also makes it wicked fun :smile:

BTW: a pair of Kukri are fun and flavorful to use too. Taking a Warblade and Bloodclaw Master with Dervish.. oh gods that is a fun character. :biggrin:

Frosty
2008-01-11, 07:07 PM
I'm of the opinions that every class should move away from x times per day mechanics. Being only able to smite like 2 or 3 times a day doesn't really give the paladin that many options. Being able to smite x/encounter does.

The ToB system really speaks to me, and I'd like to tweak all classes to be more like those.

Draz74
2008-01-11, 07:07 PM
Would need to limit slashing weapons to at least those of a given size...otherwise monkey grip finally becomes useful allowing you to wield 2 glaives for only -4 to hit as the second slashing weapon is conscidered light with twf.

In case everyone's not yet sick of hearing it:

"Monkey Grip doesn't work that way!"

Read the feat. It says nothing about letting you wield a weapon that's normally 2-handed using only one hand.

All it does, for a Medium character wanting to use a Glaive, is let you use a Large Glaive (for 2d8 base damage instead of 1d10) with a -2 attack penalty. (Which you couldn't do without the feat, because it would have been a "bigger than two-handed weapon" for you.) Nothing else.

marjan
2008-01-11, 07:13 PM
Which you couldn't do without the feat, because it would have been a "bigger than two-handed weapon" for you.

IIRC you can at -4 to hit.

EDIT: Not the 2H-ers though.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-11, 07:18 PM
IIRC you can at -4 to hit.

Your recollection fails you. :smallsmile:

If you wield a weapon one size category larger the amount of effort it takes increases. A one handed weapon would need to be wielded two-handed, but a two-handed weapon of a larger size cannot be wielded at at all. (Without monkey grip or similar of course)

For every size mismatch your incur a cumulative -2 penalty. A medium creature wielding a large longsword two handed would incur a -2 penalty, while a small creature wielding a large dagger two-handed would do so at a -4 penalty.

What Monkey Grip does is to remove the increase in effort for wielding a weapon one category larger than you, it does not affect weapons appropriately sized and cannot be used in your off-hand.

EDIT: Aha, a ninja edit. :smallwink:

Draz74
2008-01-11, 07:39 PM
EDIT: Not the 2H-ers though.

All Glaives are 2H-ers. :smalltongue:

Nebo_
2008-01-11, 08:04 PM
1- No

2- Yes

The_Snark
2008-01-11, 08:12 PM
1. Sure, that sounds okay. No reason it should be limited to scimitars that I can see.

2. That is a little too good, actually. A warblade can manage something of the same thing, but with critical differences- firstly, the warblade gets it at a higher level, and secondly, the warblade can't be moving while they do it. The Dervish can. Also note that the warblade can't be using other maneuvers, strikes, or counters while recovering maneuvers, which limits their options a bit—the Dervish, meanwhile, loses absolutely nothing by making a full attack. In fact, making a full attack is pretty much its standard battle tactic.

If you really, really must, you could make it 1/encounter, but the Dervish is already a good prestige class even with per-day limits, and doesn't really need to be made better. I sympathize with your preference for abilities that aren't x/day, but this should definitely not be useable once every other round.

Frosty
2008-01-11, 08:55 PM
I can see that, but one could also say that just by being limited to full-attacks nad not having maneuvers, the Dervish is already behind the Warblade in power. But I could see a mechanic similar to breath-weapon recovery where the Dervish can only do this every 1d4 rounds.

As for the Warblade getting it later...it won't be by much. I mean, you can first get into the PRC at level 6, since it has a BAB requirement of 5. And this is if you take fighter levels beforehand, given the fact that you need FOUR feats to get into the class. So at BEST, you get Thousand cuts at...level 16. Warblades won't be getting that maneuver much later than that.

The_Snark
2008-01-11, 09:00 PM
Once per encounter is the absolute most I'd do for the ability, really.

Don't think of it as the dervish lacking maneuvers. It does, but it has class features instead to bring it up to par. It can still use every single one of those class features while recovering.

Also consider that the dervish character is focused around making full attacks. That's how it gets its damage, and it's got bonus feats (from fighter levels) and class features to help out with those. The warblade doesn't; they use strikes to inflict damage and other effects instead, for the most part. On average, the dervish's full attack is going to be more powerful than the warblade's.

It's a very powerful ability, similar to the capstone on the Eternal Blade, and shouldn't be available more than once per encounter at the most.

zaei
2008-01-11, 10:45 PM
Or meanwhile, the enemy casts Wail of the Banshee on you or Charges you for a few hundred damage :p

That said, Thri-Kreen is cool. You still have that level adjustment however.

Go ahead and do the same thing with four glaives for reach, and grab Stand Still to negate charges. The Dervish would probably have a decent Con, and can jump into another high fort class after Dervish levels to boost it.

A giant bug wielding 4 glaives like they were short swords would make me crap my pants.

Frosty
2008-01-12, 12:05 AM
Hmm...maybe we can build general Grievous that way.

Kizara
2008-01-12, 12:07 AM
1- No

2- Yes

Seconded.

With the addition, that the first should be limited to medium sized (relative to you) slashing weapons. So, you could use longswords. Personally, I think that makes considerably less sense, but its not much of a balance issue.

Honestly, unless you have a really wierd non-core weapon in mind, I'd take scimitar in preferance to other choices. With so many attacks, the desire to have a good crit chance is much greater.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-12, 04:30 AM
A giant bug wielding 4 glaives like they were short swords would make me crap my pants.

What bug has 8 hands you say. :smalltongue:

SoD
2008-01-12, 05:16 AM
Would need to limit slashing weapons to at least those of a given size...otherwise monkey grip finally becomes useful allowing you to wield 2 glaives for only -4 to hit as the second slashing weapon is conscidered light with twf.


In case everyone's not yet sick of hearing it:

"Monkey Grip doesn't work that way!"

Read the feat. It says nothing about letting you wield a weapon that's normally 2-handed using only one hand.

All it does, for a Medium character wanting to use a Glaive, is let you use a Large Glaive (for 2d8 base damage instead of 1d10) with a -2 attack penalty. (Which you couldn't do without the feat, because it would have been a "bigger than two-handed weapon" for you.) Nothing else.

Of course he can weild two glaives! He's a Thri-keen, they have four hands!

Roderick_BR
2008-01-12, 05:56 AM
In case everyone's not yet sick of hearing it:

"Monkey Grip doesn't work that way!"

Read the feat. It says nothing about letting you wield a weapon that's normally 2-handed using only one hand.

All it does, for a Medium character wanting to use a Glaive, is let you use a Large Glaive (for 2d8 base damage instead of 1d10) with a -2 attack penalty. (Which you couldn't do without the feat, because it would have been a "bigger than two-handed weapon" for you.) Nothing else.

And as I love to say, it DID work that way in 3.0 :smallredface: It was changed in 3.5. That's why people get confused sometimes.
But yeah, not being able to use reach weapons in 1 hand (because usually all reach weapons are 2-handed) is a huge difference from just using larger 1-handed weapons for more damage.

The_Snark
2008-01-12, 06:02 AM
And as I love to say, it DID work that way in 3.0 :smallredface: It was changed in 3.5. That's why people get confused sometimes.
But yeah, not being able to use reach weapons in 1 hand (because usually all reach weapons are 2-handed) is a huge difference from just using larger 1-handed weapons for more damage.

Actually... a mounted character could dual-wield lances, although most DMs I've played with would disallow it on the basis of being silly.

And pointless. You really only need one weapon for battlefield control.

Not that this has anything to do with Monkey Grip.

Talya
2008-01-12, 09:36 AM
1 - Dervish bonuses not limited to scimitar. Any slashing weapon works. Requirement changed to be weapon focus (any slashing weapon) instead


Uh, that's already how the class is written. Dervish abilities work with all slashing weapons (including 2h slashers like the greatsword, and also including slashing weapons with reach.) The PRC entry requirement is weapon focus in any slashing weapon. This isn't a house rule...that's the class.

The only specific mention of scimitar in the dervish class is they get to treat it as a light weapon.

zaei
2008-01-12, 01:12 PM
What bug has 8 hands you say. :smalltongue:

Ah, but this is where it's broken. The only bonus that Dervishes get that's specific to scimitars is that they can treat them as light weapons. If you apply that to any slashing weapon, glaives become light weapons in the hands of a dervish.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-12, 01:17 PM
Ah, but this is where it's broken. The only bonus that Dervishes get that's specific to scimitars is that they can treat them as light weapons. If you apply that to any slashing weapon, glaives become light weapons in the hands of a dervish.

Ahh yes that is a little wild, but you lose your ability to Power Attack with it at least. :smallamused:

Nowhere Girl
2008-01-13, 05:39 AM
Uh, that's already how the class is written. Dervish abilities work with all slashing weapons (including 2h slashers like the greatsword, and also including slashing weapons with reach.) The PRC entry requirement is weapon focus in any slashing weapon. This isn't a house rule...that's the class.

The only specific mention of scimitar in the dervish class is they get to treat it as a light weapon.

Beat me to it. I don't know why people always get this wrong!

Dervishes seem to have a weird mythology surrounding then, so just to re-emphasize:

Myth #1: Dervish abilities only work with scimitars.

False. Dervish abilities work with all slashing weapons. This is good, by the way, because if you're going the Weapon Finesse route, you might be better off dipping swordsage, picking up Shadow Blade, and using daggers (which are slashing weapons) rather than scimitars.

Myth #2: Dervishes must fight with two weapons.

False. Dervishes are free to fight with one weapon if they prefer, and yes, they can hold that weapon in two hands.

Myth #3: Dervishes have to use Weapon Finesse and focus on Dexterity.

False. You can, in fact, have a Strength-focused dervish if you wish.

Talya
2008-01-13, 10:53 AM
Beat me to it. I don't know why people always get this wrong!

Dervishes seem to have a weird mythology surrounding then, so just to re-emphasize:

Myth #1: Dervish abilities only work with scimitars.

False. Dervish abilities work with all slashing weapons. This is good, by the way, because if you're going the Weapon Finesse route, you might be better off dipping swordsage, picking up Shadow Blade, and using daggers (which are slashing weapons) rather than scimitars.

Myth #2: Dervishes must fight with two weapons.

False. Dervishes are free to fight with one weapon if they prefer, and yes, they can hold that weapon in two hands.

Myth #3: Dervishes have to use Weapon Finesse and focus on Dexterity.

False. You can, in fact, have a Strength-focused dervish if you wish.

Yeah. Now to play devil's advocate, the first class feature Dervish's get (slashing blades) is highly appealling to the dual weilder. I've never been tempted to play a strength-focused 2h reach dervish, no matter how appealing such a character is on paper.

(The most interesting tome of battle ability for me is the stance that grants +5' reach...when used with a twf scimitar dervish, it makes the dance so much easier to pull off.)

KIDS
2008-01-13, 11:07 AM
Dervish is already a good and desireable class and fix to TWF/meleers, I wouldn't add those changes that you propose. Thousand Cuts every so often is plain scary, but from what I know those dervish dance bonuses apply to all slashing weapons already, it's only scimitars that are now light weapons.

playswithfire
2008-01-13, 11:28 AM
Letting slashing blades work with any 1-handed martial slashing weapon might not be that bad, unless there are non-core weapons meeting that criteria that would be problematic if treated as light.

In SRD, it only adds battleaxe (d8, x3), longsword (d8, 19-20 x2) and dwarven waraxe (d10, x3) for a dwarf dervish

Not that it's really necessary

pinkbunny
2008-01-13, 11:55 AM
You can do devish with any slashing weapon anyway, it's only that scimitar becomes a light weapon for them.

I've seen 1000 cuts made 1/encounter, which is resonable, I think your fix is a bit uber though.

Frosty
2008-01-13, 02:00 PM
Hmm...perhaps you're right. 1/encounter is enough.