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Daelon
2008-01-11, 11:39 PM
Alright, here we go. Not only did my party and I just have a really close scrape in Riedra(well, technically, we're still in it....), we're also about cast Shatter on the Korth Edicts with by cladding our Airship with Adamantine plating and arming it to the teeth. To go along with this, I figured we need some troops. Add in an unhealthy obsession with Halo's story, and, well, you see what happened. And to cut a really long story short, I'd like to get some more input before I put this past my DM. I need help with the mechanics of the new feat at the bottom of the post, too. Thanks in advance.




20x Elven Scout/4
HD: 4d8-4(14 hp)
Init: +5
Speed: 40 ft
AC: 18 (+4 Dex, +4 Mithral Chain Shirt), touch 14, flat-footed 14
BAB/Grapple: +3/+3
Attack: +1 Distance Longbow, +8 ranged*(1d8+1/20/x4)
Full Attack: ""
Space/Reach: 5-ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Skirmish (+1d6/+1AC)
Special Qualities: Elven Traits, Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge, Trackless Step, Fast Movement +10 ft
Saves: Fort: +2, Ref: +8, Will: +1
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 8, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: Climb +7, Hide +16, Listen +9, Move Silently +11, Spot +9,
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Quick Reconnoiter/ Multiple Rounds Simultaneous Impact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery#MRSI) Feat (subject to renaming)(see bottom of post)
Organization: Team (10 SPARTANs plus support), Company (20 SPARTANs plus support)
Challenge Rating: Quite a bit more than 4
Possessions: +1 Distance Longbow, Gloves of Dexterity +2, Item of Hide +5, Mithral Chain Shirt
*Longbow attacks have a range increment of 300 ft.

The SPARTAN Project is the brainchild of one Dekim Bartell (Aundairan trained, ex-Brelish employed, currently Lyrandar-loyal Warmage), and supported by Elina d'Lyrandar (Lyrandar Windwright Captain), Belial (Adaran Warblade), Kaine Lanner (ex-Brelish employed Beguiler), and the coffers of House Lyrandar itself. Begun in 999 YK after a close call infiltrating Riedran territory, the SPARTAN project’s goal was to create a small, highly tactical combat unit focused on stealth and ambush tactics and psychological warfare.

Combat

SPARTANs take time to scout out their enemies and prepare the battlefield to their liking, using their stealth abilities to stay concealed until they choose to begin combat. The fight is usually started with an arrow volley from 600 to 900 feet (third range increment, -4 to attack). They stay concealed (Hide check at –4 vs. Spot Checks at –60 or higher) and continue to rain fire on enemy positions. In the unlikely event of being spotted, the SPARTANs relocate to another pre-prepared position, wait a period of time, and open fire again.


SPARTANs are arguably more effective while moving than from prepared positions, being able to trigger their Skirmish bonus damage while throwing off pursuers.

The SPARTANs are usually divided into two groups, Red Team and Blue Team, which work together to flank targets and cover each other’s movements. Long range flanking fire from concealment is often used to give the targets the illusion of being surrounded by a far larger force than is present.

The Company employs hit and fade techniques, striking the flanks or rear of an enemy force only to disappear before resistance can be organized.

Ambushes are often laid with one team intentionally exposing itself to the enemy and luring them through trapped terrain (caltrop fields, razor wire, trip wires, clotheslines, mines) and/or into the waiting clutches of the other team.

Their significant stealth skills allow a range of covert capabilities ranging from sabotage to assassination.

The SPARTANs discreet strategy fits neatly with larger forces, providing intelligence, delaying enemy forces, and giving accurate fire support.

The SPARTAN company is formally attached to LAS Defiant Storm and report to its Warmaster, Dekim Bartell, who can sometimes be found in the field with his team.


Costs:

Off-the-shelf
+1 Distance Longbow: 8,075 gp
Gloves of Dexterity +2: 4000 gp
Item of Hide +5: 2500 gp
Mithral Chain Shirt: 1,100 gp

SubTotal: 15,625 gp per SPARTAN
Total: 312,500 gp for 20 SPARTANs

If I make the wondrous items
+1 Distance Longbow: 8,075 gp
Gloves of Dexterity +2: 2,000 gp
Item of Hide +5: 1,250 gp
Mithral Chain Shirt: 1,100 gp

SubTotal: 12525 gp per SPARTAN
Total: 248,500 gp for 20 SPARTANs


If I make the bows too:
+1 Distance Longbow: 4,038gp
Gloves of Dexterity +2: 2,000 gp
Item of Hide +5: 1,250 gp
Mithral Chain Shirt: 1,100 gp

SubTotal: 8388 gp per SPARTAN
**Total: 167,760 gp for 20 SPARTANs**

New Feat:
Multiple Rounds Simultaneous Impact Feat
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Int 13
You can fire multiple arrows that hit the target at the same time.

Benefit: Benefit: A character with this feat may make a full attack action with a bow or crossbow, and declare that those attacks will not hit the target until the beginning of the attacker's next action. Resolve the attacks normally at that time, applying a -2 penalty to the attack rolls, or a -4 penalty if the target has moved more than five feet.



Okay, that was horrible. Basically, I'm trying to turn the artillery principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery#MRSI) into a feat. In short, I want them to be able to fire an arrow that doesn't hit until the next round, then they can fire an arrow that round, and all the arrows hit at the same time. It give a bit more of a kick on the opening volley.

Edit: Props to Nerd-O-Rama for helping with the feat language.

Felius
2008-01-11, 11:52 PM
Why calling them Spartans? I believe Eberron doesn't have any acient Sparta to name after. And calling someone hiding and using arrows spartan? Not very good. What made the spartans famous was not terrific tactics (although they had their moments on this too), but their regimen of training and their philosophy of life. Remember: "Come with it, or upon it."

Ok, now that my history perfectionist have been satiated about the crunch: Seems fine to me, although I'll leave it for the more experienced players here.

Daelon
2008-01-11, 11:55 PM
Why calling them Spartans? I believe Eberron doesn't have any acient Sparta to name after. And calling someone hiding and using arrows spartan? Not very good. What made the spartans famous was not terrific tactics (although they had their moments on this too), but their regimen of training and their philosophy of life. Remember: "Come with it, or upon it."

Ok, now that my history perfectionist have been satiated about the crunch: Seems fine to me, although I'll leave it for the more experienced players here.

You'll note that SPARTAN is spelled in all-caps. They're supposed to be a sort-of transfer of the SPARTAN-III Supersoldiers from the Halo Expanded Universe. They wore the sleeker, active-camo using SPI(Semi-Powered Infiltration) armor instead of the tougher, stronger Mjolnir Mk VI used by thier predecessors, the SPARTAN-II's. Stealth and speed and sniper rifles +1 Distance Longbows.[/fanboy rambling]

Felius
2008-01-11, 11:59 PM
I actually got it, but still they were called spartan because each of them were super-soldiers (Master Chief by the virtue of being the player character even more), not by having great hit and run tactics. And still there is no in-world origin for the name unless you can make an acronym out of it.

Although I'm just being overly picky on the fluff. Proceed as you like, don't let me discourage you.

Ralfarius
2008-01-12, 10:17 AM
Super Powerful Advanced Recon, Tactical & Attack Naturalists

AKA

S.P.A.R.T.A.N.s

Felius
2008-01-12, 10:37 AM
Somewhat of a stretch on the N, but although a bit silly very good. ^^

Metal Head
2008-01-12, 11:25 AM
Super Powerful Advanced Recon, Tactical & Attack Naturists

AKA

S.P.A.R.T.A.N.s

And with a bit of editing the SPARTANS have a new dress code, or rather a lack of one.

Drakron
2008-01-12, 11:29 AM
I know Eberron sucks but damn it, even I lack enough hate to subject it to "Haloing" it.

Necromas
2008-01-12, 01:34 PM
If you wanted to emulate a halo spartan, you'd need...

-Some kind of custom exotic armor that would pretty much be full plate, with a very low armor check penalty and a high max dex bonus, that boosts the users strength and dexterity. It also grants temporary hit points that regenerate.

-Soldiers with high Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, with pretty high Intelligence as well and decent Wisdom, and the squad leaders would have exceptional Charisma. They'd basically have a badass template to boost their stats.

-High ranks in the following skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (History, and assorted ranks in the others), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, and Use Magic Device (closest thing to being well trained in the use of covenant weaponry). Specialized team members would also take the missing rogue skills like Disable Device.

-A little bit of skirmish (tactical maneuvering) and sneak attack, along with evasion, uncanny dodge, and fast movement.

-Experts with both ranged weapons and close quarters combat (usually hand-to-hand or using a dagger type weapon).

-A really high level adjustment and a DM crazy enough.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-01-12, 01:56 PM
Yeah, why does everything have to be a Halo reference lately? It's a well-made video game, sure, but it's not exactly a Homeric epic like people seem to think it is. In this particular case, since these guys seem to have about as much to do with power-armored super-soldiers as Marilyn Monroe, I would recommend a name used by English Longbowmen or Qin-era China's archers, but I can't seem to find a snappy term for either. Or possibly something more modern, like The Howitzers.

Anyhow, this is a reasonable set up for a nasty indirect-fire brigade. In Eberron, it will take a fair while and a lot of cash to find/hire/train this many people with four levels in PC classes, though. You could probably manage it by hiring from the Valenar though, since they're described as all pretty elite (though that may only be referring to the cavalry, so you still might need to train these guys up a bit). They will charge you out the nose, though. Also, bear in mind that if they're caught marching, or if someone manages to divine they're location, they're a very expensive glass cannon.

As for the feat, I get what you're saying. It's great for surprise attacks or intimidating the enemy. Here's how I would phrase the benefit.

Benefit: A character with this feat may make a full attack action with a bow or crossbow, and declare that those attacks will not hit the target until the beginning of the attacker's next action. Resolve the attacks normally at that time, applying a -2 penalty to the attack rolls, or a -4 penalty if the target has moved more than five feet.

The last bit is the requisite nod to common sense.


In a somewhat unhelpful aside, an actual SPARTAN analogue in Eberron would probably mean a magical gene therapy experiment by House Vadalis (i.e. Magebred Humans) combined with elemental-bound mithral fullplate to make a one-man platoon. Eberron's wanted super-soldiers before, but they went with the apparently cheaper option of Warforged.

Daelon
2008-01-12, 02:36 PM
As for the feat, I get what you're saying. It's great for surprise attacks or intimidating the enemy. Here's how I would phrase the benefit.

Benefit: A character with this feat may make a full attack action with a bow or crossbow, and declare that those attacks will not hit the target until the beginning of the attacker's next action. Resolve the attacks normally at that time, applying a -2 penalty to the attack rolls, or a -4 penalty if the target has moved more than five feet.

The last bit is the requisite nod to common sense.

Thanks, sounds about right. I knew what I wanted it to do, but couldn't get the wording down. The -4 part makes sense, too. Any suggestions for a name?

I've got the time to train these guys. After our current story arc is done, my party's taking about a year off(game time) to combat retrofit our airship (armor plating, redoing the elemental drive system, reinforcing the ship's skeleton. Money shouldn't be a problem, we've got the backing of a Great Wyrm+++ dragon and the current head of House Lyrandar used to be a part of our party(and his daughter is a part of the party!).

@all: This isn't based off of/set up to emulate SPARTANs of any variety. I had the idea for fast, quick-hitting, stealthy group of special forces. I got half-way through my number-crunching and said to myself: "These guys are kind of like SPARTAN-III's..." The only thing here that's Halo-influenced is some of the fluff.

Warning: fanboy rant contained within

Also, SPARTAN-III's, not SPARTAN-II's. Master Chief is a SPARTAN-II, the III's are from the book, Ghosts of Onyx.

SPARTAN II's have the heavy Mjolnir armor, super strength and speed, energy shields, and a whole host of genetic and cybernetic augmentations.

SPARTAN III's have the lighter, less protective SPI (Semi-Powered Infiltration) armor. It lacks energy shields, but compensates with active camouflage. III's lack many of the augmentations of the II's, so they rely on stealth and speed to survive.



Edit:

In a somewhat unhelpful aside, an actual SPARTAN analogue in Eberron would probably mean a magical gene therapy experiment by House Vadalis (i.e. Magebred Humans) combined with elemental-bound mithral fullplate to make a one-man platoon. Eberron's wanted super-soldiers before, but they went with the apparently cheaper option of Warforged.

That's a really nifty idea, actually. I'll have to hang on to it for later...

Loonook
2008-01-12, 07:32 PM
As what you're looking for has an extremely, extremely tapered list of prerequisites, you may want to actually individually pick and choose your people. Personally as a DM, I'm not giving even a year's worth of seeking and training as an option for picking up 4th level scouts who are so trained, and outfitted. It's an expensive route to go, and is an enormous favor for an area where finding such individuals fully trained is going to be very, very difficult.

On the other hand, I would probably go with finding some better-trained individuals for assistance, and lesser-trained individuals for their movement abilities.

As has been pointed out, you're creating a glass cannon. Why not utilize a more diverse portfolio of abilities and create a stronger unit?

I would personally prefer a Storm Sentry or two as bodyguards and attaches to the House for your heir. Sentries (Dragonmarked p. 124-7) decked out in glamerweave and bearing the reckoning of dragonmarks and the House upon any who would feel frisky seem a lot more apt to bring the types of results you want. Two 6th-8th level Storm Sentries (with all the wonderful benefits therein) could cause some major issues for boarding parties and other beasties, and possibly include the additional oomph to take the fight to their targets.

While they will lack the SA/Skirmish you'll find with your Scouts, it is a negligible problem, easily solved by having a few Rogue levels alongside their fighter/swashbuckler/what-have-you training. Backed with a couple of 2nd or 3rd level Scouts and the party, they will provide the best protection on the ship and serve as an apt boarding party themselves. Being able to 'blow back' intruders at later levels will also serve you kindly, and there is a reason for such acquisition (mainly, the connection with the House itself).

With your Dragon money, may I also suggest the purchase of a Rod of Many Wands (Complete Mage p. 128)? Very useful in ship-to-ship, ship-to-land, and similar situations. Mounted or carried, it would allow an individual attuned to the arcane to fire quite a few devastating attacks at range before boarding or during the skirmish. If you had your troops trained correctly, a well-placed flanking maneuver could be assisted with a RoMW equipped with a Wall of Force/X combination (depending on your specific desires).

Of course, you could also load the item with a set of Eternal Wands (Eberron CS p. 265) which qualify as both wands AND wondrous items, and have no charges. Three fireballs, lightning bolts, or even magic missiles as an offensive capability... quite nice. Of course, there are plenty of first, second, and third level spells which are really nice to load in combination into the wand over an area in the case of boardings and other dangerous situations (find a 3rd level wall spell, grease, and fog... or grease, gust, and X can make for an interesting on-deck decision making process. Being able to use this twice a day (at the expense of two full-round actions from a crows-nest or hidden/concealed 1st level magewright) will allow your troops ample opportunity to just follow up the mess. Two of them (one used to alter terrain and the other for offensive capability?) Even better.

I don't necessarily think the SPARTANs would be your best option, but being able to bring into play some heavy artillery behind them is and always will be good times.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-12, 07:42 PM
If you're interested in previous breeds of SPARTANs and the preceding versions of the Mjolnir gear, you might want to play Marathon (http://source.bungie.org/get/).

PaladinBoy
2008-01-12, 09:32 PM
My interest in this topic should be immediately obvious upon comparing the name of the Lyrandar windwright captain in the OP to my character's name in my sig.

Anyway.

Also, bear in mind that if they're caught marching, or if someone manages to divine they're location, they're a very expensive glass cannon.

Given that they'll travel with our airship, what Daelon referred to as the LAS Defiant Storm (I can only assume the LAS stands for Lyrandar Airship), I'm not too worried about getting caught traveling - most dragons won't be able to outfly our ship, once we've retrofitted it. (Of course, my DM gives us an unusual dragon. Yes, I lost the race.) With their Hide checks, I assume they can hide away from enemies they can't defeat long enough for air support to arrive. And if the airship with the PCs aboard can't win, then we pick them up and run for our lives.


I would personally prefer a Storm Sentry or two as bodyguards and attaches to the House for your heir. Sentries (Dragonmarked p. 124-7) decked out in glamerweave and bearing the reckoning of dragonmarks and the House upon any who would feel frisky seem a lot more apt to bring the types of results you want. Two 6th-8th level Storm Sentries (with all the wonderful benefits therein) could cause some major issues for boarding parties and other beasties, and possibly include the additional oomph to take the fight to their targets.

While they will lack the SA/Skirmish you'll find with your Scouts, it is a negligible problem, easily solved by having a few Rogue levels alongside their fighter/swashbuckler/what-have-you training. Backed with a couple of 2nd or 3rd level Scouts and the party, they will provide the best protection on the ship and serve as an apt boarding party themselves. Being able to 'blow back' intruders at later levels will also serve you kindly, and there is a reason for such acquisition (mainly, the connection with the House itself).

I'm well familiar with the abilities of a storm sentry; Elina will probably max out that class once I'm done with windwright captain.

I'm not too worried about defending the ship, or even boarding other ships, with this team. We've trained certain members of our crew to act as marines already, and they serve well enough for that purpose. Getting a storm sentry or two would make a nice leader for that group, I admit. (Note to self: ask DM.) That is not this group's purpose.

This group of SPARTAN-IIIs that our warmage is coming up with is more of a ground support team. I'm not inclined to risk our crew in that venture..... we need them to fly the ship. Having a team behind us when we have to go on an extended ground excursion (which is what we're doing in Riedra) would make us all feel a little safer.

Perhaps some background on the current situation we're in would provide insight into our reasoning, since it's why we're even considering this. I'll put it in a spoiler.

Our party is essentially working for Ulharathear, a great wyrm blue dragon with abilities far in excess of the norm. He has comissioned us to find magic artifacts which, we're told, are something like the embodiment of the draconic Prophecy. They hold immense power, and it can be used for basically whatever you can turn it to - if you're willing to risk the consequences of misusing it. (Our DM blames House Cannith locating one of these things for the Mournland.)

In any case. We learn, from Ulharathear's spies, that the Inspired of Riedra have found a piece, and are planning to use its power. We assumed that we couldn't count on them screwing up and destroying themselves, so we left for Riedra.

We stopped first at Adar, a small nation of exiles for Riedra - and their eternal foes. We didn't learn much, but it was an entertaining diversion at least. We did learn that airship arrivals are practically unheard of in Riedra - so flying the Defiant Storm in was out of the question; it would draw too much scrutiny on us right as we're trying to get in and derail the Inspired's plots.

We met up with a Lyrandar merchant vessel 48 miles off the Riedran coast. Our airship would wait there, as we sailed to Dar Jin, the primary Riedran port city. We explored the foreign quarter and met up with Ulharathear's spy and contact - a cat. And a 13th level wizard. Please don't ask me to explain - I don't know.

We managed to get out of the foreign quarter by professing an interest in studying - and converting to - the Riedran religion. (Completely false, of course.) I learned some interesting things about the area, and we set off for the fortress which Ulharathear's spy identified as the most likely location of the artifact.

On the way, we ran into trouble. A visit to a small village turned sour when a young Riedran with a wilder's powers was attacked by the Harmonious Shield, Riedran internal security. We let them go - then reversed course, blasted the entire platoon of soldiers into nothingness (they were common soldiers), and rescued the young man. Only to find - he didn't want to be rescued. Riedran brainwashing apparently goes deep; he believed he, and us, were drawing power from evil spirits. We tried to convince him otherwise, but finally just had him tied up - we couldn't spare the time to convert him with the fortress rapidly approaching, and since we were being hunted by Riedran security after killing the soldiers. Hunted - and very nearly caught. We were not happy about that.

We reached the fortress. It was well-defended, but they weren't counting on an all-out attack. The warmage simultaneously blasted every guard tower with firebrand while the rest of the party blasted a hole in the wall (adamantine swords are fun!) and ran for the most important-looking tower. Long story short - we find the item, kill the Inspired lord of the fortress, but end up on the roof of the tower, with most of the fortress's guards still alive below a broken-off stairway. Then, as I lock down the area with a control weather and a quick sending puts air extraction 5 hours away, a psionic teleportation circle appears outside the fortress and Riedran troops start spilling through. That's the situation we were in when the session ended.

Loonook
2008-01-12, 09:52 PM
I'm well familiar with the abilities of a storm sentry; Elina will probably max out that class once I'm done with windwright captain.

I'm not too worried about defending the ship, or even boarding other ships, with this team. We've trained certain members of our crew to act as marines already, and they serve well enough for that purpose. Getting a storm sentry or two would make a nice leader for that group, I admit. (Note to self: ask DM.) That is not this group's purpose.

This group of SPARTAN-IIIs that our warmage is coming up with is more of a ground support team. I'm not inclined to risk our crew in that venture..... we need them to fly the ship. Having a team behind us when we have to go on an extended ground excursion (which is what we're doing in Riedra) would make us all feel a little safer.

Perhaps some background on the current situation we're in would provide insight into our reasoning, since it's why we're even considering this. I'll put it in a spoiler.

Our party is essentially working for Ulharathear, a great wyrm blue dragon with abilities far in excess of the norm. He has comissioned us to find magic artifacts which, we're told, are something like the embodiment of the draconic Prophecy. They hold immense power, and it can be used for basically whatever you can turn it to - if you're willing to risk the consequences of misusing it. (Our DM blames House Cannith locating one of these things for the Mournland.)

In any case. We learn, from Ulharathear's spies, that the Inspired of Riedra have found a piece, and are planning to use its power. We assumed that we couldn't count on them screwing up and destroying themselves, so we left for Riedra.

We stopped first at Adar, a small nation of exiles for Riedra - and their eternal foes. We didn't learn much, but it was an entertaining diversion at least. We did learn that airship arrivals are practically unheard of in Riedra - so flying the Defiant Storm in was out of the question; it would draw too much scrutiny on us right as we're trying to get in and derail the Inspired's plots.

We met up with a Lyrandar merchant vessel 48 miles off the Riedran coast. Our airship would wait there, as we sailed to Dar Jin, the primary Riedran port city. We explored the foreign quarter and met up with Ulharathear's spy and contact - a cat. And a 13th level wizard. Please don't ask me to explain - I don't know.

We managed to get out of the foreign quarter by professing an interest in studying - and converting to - the Riedran religion. (Completely false, of course.) I learned some interesting things about the area, and we set off for the fortress which Ulharathear's spy identified as the most likely location of the artifact.

On the way, we ran into trouble. A visit to a small village turned sour when a young Riedran with a wilder's powers was attacked by the Harmonious Shield, Riedran internal security. We let them go - then reversed course, blasted the entire platoon of soldiers into nothingness (they were common soldiers), and rescued the young man. Only to find - he didn't want to be rescued. Riedran brainwashing apparently goes deep; he believed he, and us, were drawing power from evil spirits. We tried to convince him otherwise, but finally just had him tied up - we couldn't spare the time to convert him with the fortress rapidly approaching, and since we were being hunted by Riedran security after killing the soldiers. Hunted - and very nearly caught. We were not happy about that.

We reached the fortress. It was well-defended, but they weren't counting on an all-out attack. The warmage simultaneously blasted every guard tower with firebrand while the rest of the party blasted a hole in the wall (adamantine swords are fun!) and ran for the most important-looking tower. Long story short - we find the item, kill the Inspired lord of the fortress, but end up on the roof of the tower, with most of the fortress's guards still alive below a broken-off stairway. Then, as I lock down the area with a control weather and a quick sending puts air extraction 5 hours away, a psionic teleportation circle appears outside the fortress and Riedran troops start spilling through. That's the situation we were in when the session ended.

Again, even with your notation, I say the group as stated is sound. The uses themselves are excellent on-ship; however, you should still be able to see their usefulness off-site. As a ground support team you really cannot beat people firing triple-wand blasts for distance on targets. Of course, there may be a better adjustment set you could perform. Of course, there is the problem of having to deal with what sounds like a Dragon of the Great Game more than a Dragon seeking out prophecy pieces (unless you botched that fight on your own, it sounds like a pretty standard contest or a hoard struggle). Of course, we'll leave that hanging for now, to move onto the larger 'forming the team' question.

First, you are creating a support team of 4th level scouts to back a 13th level party; you need more leadership on your side along with some better protections for these scouts. Probably would make it a five-scout group with proper strike training, then use those five slots for possible fills. If you could get storm sentries to cover as a commander and subordinate commander, more the better. Those three slots on the back though... I would most likely put in something a bit more meaningful than some scouts.

I'm talking an additional mage if you can get one, a wizard/ranger (or similar), and a bard. The Bard is going to be useful in such a group for the buffs they can supply on-site (as they are serving as support you may have to deal with situations where your own or other bardic music abilities won't back up). It also gives a small base of healing, and the usage of healing spells off of scrolls or wands. The wizard/ranger could act as a sniper of sorts; 'guaranteeing' his strikes pay off. The larger thing, however, is the possible need for additional beef on the lines. For these situations, I would prefer to still have that RoMW if available, and some Summon Monster wands with low charges (9-12) prepared for a possible firefight situation.

Since you guys are seemingly ignoring some of the larger issues inherent in the setup you're placing in front of your DM... (do you have similar backup in case you fight against a force which is using similar tactics? How about dealing with division maneuvers such as walling/placements?) I would seriously suggest having a backup of the plan which is more in-line. I would prefer to have a balanced team of diverse individuals at my back with primary, secondary, and tertiary levels of command and function over a group of bow-jockeys any day.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

PaladinBoy
2008-01-12, 10:45 PM
Sorry about the delay in posting this - computer had a slight problem.


Again, even with your notation, I say the group as stated is sound. The uses themselves are excellent on-ship; however, you should still be able to see their usefulness off-site. As a ground support team you really cannot beat people firing triple-wand blasts for distance on targets. Of course, there may be a better adjustment set you could perform. Of course, there is the problem of having to deal with what sounds like a Dragon of the Great Game more than a Dragon seeking out prophecy pieces (unless you botched that fight on your own, it sounds like a pretty standard contest or a hoard struggle). Of course, we'll leave that hanging for now, to move onto the larger 'forming the team' question.

I'm not sure - if it's magic attack firepower you're worried about, our warmage can do that much. And we don't have to deal with any dragons - I just challenged Ulharathear to a race for fun. To put it bluntly, I lost, badly.


First, you are creating a support team of 4th level scouts to back a 13th level party; you need more leadership on your side along with some better protections for these scouts. Probably would make it a five-scout group with proper strike training, then use those five slots for possible fills. If you could get storm sentries to cover as a commander and subordinate commander, more the better. Those three slots on the back though... I would most likely put in something a bit more meaningful than some scouts.

The one thing I have against this: They are intended to be nearly invisible long-range support. Every slot that's not this scout build is someone who cannot help fulfill that primary purpose. And there is room for individual variation; some of the scouts can and will act as leaders.


I'm talking an additional mage if you can get one, a wizard/ranger (or similar), and a bard. The Bard is going to be useful in such a group for the buffs they can supply on-site (as they are serving as support you may have to deal with situations where your own or other bardic music abilities won't back up). It also gives a small base of healing, and the usage of healing spells off of scrolls or wands. The wizard/ranger could act as a sniper of sorts; 'guaranteeing' his strikes pay off. The larger thing, however, is the possible need for additional beef on the lines. For these situations, I would prefer to still have that RoMW if available, and some Summon Monster wands with low charges (9-12) prepared for a possible firefight situation.

I suggested that they be given one or two jars of healing salve per team, maybe more, but that didn't make it into the OP's write-up for whatever reason. That covers the healing, and the buffs, while nice, are probably not necessary. And we don't need more frontline support - we need more extra-long-range support, so the whole team is designed to fulfill that role. With air support that can evac the teams very quickly, I'm not too worried about them being caught out by a force they can't kill. Then there is the matter of their ability to hide.... with distance penalties to Spot, it would take a miracle to find them, particularly given that they can and will move to stay ahead of enemy scouts.


Since you guys are seemingly ignoring some of the larger issues inherent in the setup you're placing in front of your DM... (do you have similar backup in case you fight against a force which is using similar tactics? How about dealing with division maneuvers such as walling/placements?) I would seriously suggest having a backup of the plan which is more in-line. I would prefer to have a balanced team of diverse individuals at my back with primary, secondary, and tertiary levels of command and function over a group of bow-jockeys any day.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

If we're fighting a force with similar tactics to this one, we jump in our airship and search from it - if they really want to kill us, they'll have to shoot that down.

Part of the point here is that we have a beguiler capable of supplying some buffs, a warmage/wizard/ultimate magus for frontline battle magic, and a warblade for heavy sharp pointy stick support. We don't have anyone capable of attacking while remaining unseen - certainly not like this proposal can manage. While many of the roles and ideas you mention are useful, we don't need backup for magical or frontline attack. Our party has that covered. What we don't have is the ability to stay hidden and fight - which is exactly what this team is designed to do. Making it more diversified would limit its ability to perform that function.

Counterpower
2008-01-12, 10:45 PM
And to cut a really long story short, I'd like to get some more input before I put this past my DM.

My nitpicking brain refuses to let this pass: technically, by putting this out on an open forum that you knew your DM (like, maybe, me) still had access to and did actually look at occasionally, you were all but submitting it to me for consideration anyway.

Oh, and another nitpick: 20 guys isn't a company. It's a platoon, and a really small platoon to boot. Most platoons have at least 3 squads of at least 10 guys each. Companies have at least 3 platoons.

Other than Halo, why are you calling them Spartans? I had a hard enough time dissuading you guys from rampant Star Trek cameos! (They wanted to call the airship the Defiant. We compromised on Defiant Storm.)

Loonook
2008-01-12, 11:35 PM
Sorry about the delay in posting this - computer had a slight problem.



I'm not sure - if it's magic attack firepower you're worried about, our warmage can do that much. And we don't have to deal with any dragons - I just challenged Ulharathear to a race for fun. To put it bluntly, I lost, badly.



The one thing I have against this: They are intended to be nearly invisible long-range support. Every slot that's not this scout build is someone who cannot help fulfill that primary purpose. And there is room for individual variation; some of the scouts can and will act as leaders.



I suggested that they be given one or two jars of healing salve per team, maybe more, but that didn't make it into the OP's write-up for whatever reason. That covers the healing, and the buffs, while nice, are probably not necessary. And we don't need more frontline support - we need more extra-long-range support, so the whole team is designed to fulfill that role. With air support that can evac the teams very quickly, I'm not too worried about them being caught out by a force they can't kill. Then there is the matter of their ability to hide.... with distance penalties to Spot, it would take a miracle to find them, particularly given that they can and will move to stay ahead of enemy scouts.

If we're fighting a force with similar tactics to this one, we jump in our airship and search from it - if they really want to kill us, they'll have to shoot that down.

Part of the point here is that we have a beguiler capable of supplying some buffs, a warmage/wizard/ultimate magus for frontline battle magic, and a warblade for heavy sharp pointy stick support. We don't have anyone capable of attacking while remaining unseen - certainly not like this proposal can manage. While many of the roles and ideas you mention are useful, we don't need backup for magical or frontline attack. Our party has that covered. What we don't have is the ability to stay hidden and fight - which is exactly what this team is designed to do. Making it more diversified would limit its ability to perform that function.

Yeah, you have a Beguiler... which is nice. And a UM with Warmage and Wizard... also, workable. The Warblade will be good for the upfronts. However, the hazards of having a long-range attack force of such a quantity at the level you're dealing with is far more hazardo...

You know, never mind. I just think that your DM should look up some useful long-range spells... without proper support on both sides (i.e. protective aspects and the ability to throw magic) you have a dead-in-the-water proposition of a bunch of low-HP combatants thrown into a mid to upper level war zone. Also, the issue of hiding v. spot, dealing with threats which come forward, advance placement and harrier troops, and the like...

Nope. Just send in the 4th level Scouts. I think your larger problem is going to be recruiting the next platoon, but hey, maybe the DM will allow for incongruities. The spot penalties will prove useful when they're heaped up amongst the slag piles :smallwink:

Slainte,

-Loonook.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-13, 12:47 AM
You obviously know what happened to the Spartan-III's, then. :smallbiggrin:
For those who haven't read the books, every company ended up being sent on a suicide mission their first time out and getting TPK'd by orbital bombardments, attrition, and the like. And they were still considered a success. Yeah, that army was really harsh to it's recruits, especially when they weren't old enough to vote for a more moral administration.:smallfrown: