PDA

View Full Version : How Lenient Should the DM Be With CR?



Crow
2008-01-11, 11:49 PM
Players of Crow's game; STOP HERE

So I was hard-up for adventure ideas for our upcoming session (scheduled to take place after the great Gish-Barbarian Beatdown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67604)), and so I picked up my copy of The Complete Chronicles of Conan, and decided to read The Scarlet Citadel.

It was an absolutely entertaining read, but what really got my imagination pumping was the description of the underground complex in which all kinds of horrible demons and abberations were kept. I liked the idea and was looking for some way to bring it to life in our campaign when I remembered that one of the player characters has a keep that protects a nearby mine. I was thinking about having his miners unblock a long-forgotten passage that descends into the mountain, at the end of which is a powerful-looking adamantine door. The miners will have heard strange sounds from behind the door and refuse to work the mine. Beyond the door would lie the some ancient wizard's menagerie of horrors from the depths of the mountain. If they pursue the path downwards, they will eventually make it to this wizard's old lair (he will be long dead, but the horrors would remain), and the inevitable treasures which it would hold. The lair will have (level-appropriate...well maybe a bit high) golems that have been protecting it for ages.

As for the menagerie, I wanted to populate this thing with the strangest, most horrifying creatures I can find in the Monster Manual. Like the story, the creatures will not come into the main hall (which will lead eventually to the wizard's joint) to go after the player characters, but if they proceed into a creatures "lair", they will be fair game. Some of the creatures kept in this place will be a pushover for my group, while others have the very real possibility of utterly destroying them. Encountering the creatures will be optional, but some may try to trick the players into entering.

My question is; Should the DM ever populate the adventure with creatures that can easily dispose of the player characters? Is doing so unfair to the players, even if the encounters are optional or can be fled from?

Or must all encounters be level-appropriate to ensure the game is fair.

Also, our game rarely sticks to the 4 per day encounter guideline. Sometimes it is 1 big encounter, or up to 8 smaller encounters.

Felius
2008-01-11, 11:56 PM
I find the Idea of four encounters day ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense. It works well enough for a hack slash dungeon crawl, but don't put it in perspective.

Also about the CR: Depends on the adventure. Basically as long it's fun for the players it's fine. Now an adventure that you enter the room and rock falls and everyone dies, with no save, no option of doing another thing, is just a bad idea.

tyckspoon
2008-01-11, 11:58 PM
I personally feel that a DM should be free to populate his world with whatever the hell creatures he wants. If the players decide to wander into the areas those creatures lair in, they can encounter them and reap the benefits or take the losses.

That said, if the creatures are way over CR such that fighting them is a near-guaranteed TPK, there should be ample warning of that fact and chances for the players to run away, even if that requires some fudging (or outright cheating) on the DM's part to let it happen. The default assumption *is* that encounters will be at least within a party's achievable range, and I feel that it is unfair to change that assumption without giving some hints that it's happening.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-12, 12:13 AM
My question is; Should the DM ever populate the adventure with creatures that can easily dispose of the player characters? Is doing so unfair to the players, even if the encounters are optional or can be fled from?

Or must all encounters be level-appropriate to ensure the game is fair.

In the scenario presented, it is perfectly fair to have any number of level inappropriate challenges, especially if you warn the characters about the dangers of straying off the path laid out by the main hall. If every doorway is laid with glowing silver runes of protection, that your wizards read as a specialized version of Prot Evil, and the first doorway has some variety of stupid demon slamming itself against the barrier, trying to get at them, they'll understand that going out of it will cause massive problems.

For real fun, have one of the doorways in there NOT have the glowing silver runes. Mind you, it's just that this particular hallway leads to a privy, or to his dining room, or something like that, but if they're wandering through a maze of warded passages, all alike, the one passage that ISN'T warded is going to scream out to them.

Button Jockey
2008-01-12, 01:18 AM
Four encounters is a bit much for one day. Unless you are running hack and slash like Felius said. I could see it work if some encounters are just for color, like non threatening NPC's, or perhaps a landmark like a well or fruit tree. Of course if it is a well or fruit tree, you have to remember it's there.:smallcool:

I find crs are good as a guide whether or not a monster makes a difficult or easy fight. I don't take them as a strict guideline though. I also like putting my players into a situation they can't handle once in awhile. I recently had a level 1 party attacked by a roc. It just stole a pack pony and flew away but all the players crapped their pants! It was completely random too. I don't think that hafling knew how lucky he was!

KIDS
2008-01-12, 03:52 AM
A DM should populate his world with whatever creatures he wants, but arrange the story so that players face appropriate ones. You aren't expected to sugar-coat things so if they stray off the path, face a much higher CR and die, that just happens.
Do remember that you are here for the players, they aren't here to provide amusement for you as something massacres them, so when you put in encounters with higher CRs, be certain to put in sufficient IC and OOC hints about how deadly the creature is and that they should flee. If you don't warn them, they'll whine for a good reason.

Leon
2008-01-12, 05:45 PM
Players of Crow's game; STOP HERE

My question is; Should the DM ever populate the adventure with creatures that can easily dispose of the player characters?
Yes!


Is doing so unfair to the players, even if the encounters are optional or can be fled from?

No



Or must all encounters be level-appropriate to ensure the game is fair.

Only if you want a sterile enviroment



Also, our game rarely sticks to the 4 per day encounter guideline. Sometimes it is 1 big encounter, or up to 8 smaller encounters.
Good, the 4/day Encounter is a ridgid block to creativity

kjones
2008-01-12, 06:05 PM
The DMG specifies (p. 49) that 20% of a party's encounters should be at an EL greater than the party level, 15% 1-4 levels higher (Very Difficult) and 5% 5+ levels higher (overpowering). This is a good general guideline to follow, and it's served me well in the past - you can have some challenging beasties, but if they have to run away from every single one, it's just not fun.

On the other hand, if you've clearly (or subtly, if you have clever players) indicated to them that they shouldn't necessarily be messing with every beastie that they run across (as per the "magic protection runes" idea), then go wild. It's their own fault if they're stupid enough to deliberately tangle with a balor.

Leon: Could you explain what you mean? Most parties, when constantly faced with encounters above party level, will just die, not realizing that they're not supposed to stand and fight every time. After all, how heroic is it to run away all the time? (Unless you're playing that kind of game... but I can't imagine that kind of game being all that fun. To each his own.)

Person_Man
2008-01-12, 06:29 PM
The vast majority of my campaigns contain combat encounters that are well above the CR of the PCs. However, my PCs are well aware of this. They also know that if they take the time to properly gather information about their enemies and use intelligent tactics, they can level the playing field or easily take them out.

For example, I once pit four second level characters against an Ogre with levels of Barbarian. But the NPC who gave them the quest to get rid of the Ogre let them know that he had killed dozens, and the general whereabouts of where he lived. The PCs intelligently set up an ambush, patiently waited for him, and were able to defeat him. They could have also tracked him to his lair and killed him in his sleep. Or they could have taken the time to find a poison. Etc.

I find that the threat of death is a very important part of D&D, as it forces the PCs to play on a much higher level.

loves_to_laugh
2008-01-12, 09:02 PM
Most of the campaigns I take part in tend to leave the players begging for rest. The cr's are usually much higher in our campaigns but in encourages us to be smart when in battle. I think that the thing with runes is a good idea if you do it in such a way that they can choose what to go up against and when, then they can prepare themselves for it.

FlyMolo
2008-01-12, 09:08 PM
Personally, I just stepped into this thread to see if I could garner some ideas for my own campaign. I came away with lots. :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, if the critters are locked away, and the PCs are going in after them and get TPK'd, it's totally their fault. They should know better.

Button Jockey
2008-01-12, 11:28 PM
If you follow the encounter rules to the letter your players will win every fight. If the players always win, there will be no challenge. That is my view on both DMing and playing. I like winning the fight, but sometimes surviving the fight is winning. If I know my character can do nothing that will result in his death, it makes the game boring. Trust me, I've had that DM.

You can't always beat the characters down either. It is good to once in awhile for them to run away, or even make that the theme of the adventure. If your character is being chased and he outsmarts his pursuers, that is a victory. One of the funnest adventures I played was one where we had one spear for three people and were being chased overland by an orc warband.

I've also have a DM whose world is almost always full of high level NPCs. This is very frustrating as you can never pass bluff, diplomacy, or intimidate checks, don't even think about a bar fight. Not a very fun world at all.

I like to take my player's characters right to the brink of dying and then stop just short of it actually happening. I don't like seeing my player's characters die, and I've never used a trap that would just outright kill with no saves or anything, but character's die, that's why there are res. spells.

TheLogman
2008-01-13, 12:10 AM
Even according to the DM's guide, you can place even super-overpowered encounters inside you games against players. The trick is for them to either realize that danger and escape, or figure out that a clever strategy works better than a frontal assault. Be sure that in your description of either the area or the monster, that you somehow tip them off that the monster they're fighting has a power level of OVER 9000!!!!

Anyway, feel free to throw monsters with CR's higher than the appropriate level, but make sure that a few things don't make the fight impossible. Award Cleverness or in some cases silliness.

For instance, in the final fight in the Tomb of Horrors, I suggested that some spells might be more effective against it, but in a Middle-Ages accent. One of the spells in question is "Eyebite", however, I phrased it "A Biting of its eye". Hilarity ensued as each of the party and their summoned creatures declare "I bite its eye!" That monster would have destroyed a normal party, no problem, especially considering the traps before, but because I rewarded creativity, and they got lucky with their saves, they were able to survive.

Things that may make a monster IMPOSSIBLE (Without aid from the DM, a creativity bonus, or cheese.
-Something like DR or SR (Or even Saves or AC) that is too powerful for the party to hit.
-Attacks that 1-hit
-Spell-like abilities that will insta-kill.

Talanic
2008-01-13, 12:22 AM
Also, be sure your players are at least generally close to wealth-by-level. My old DM didn't let our party get any significant loot, to the point that the party's greatest magic item at level 12ish was a wand of summon monster I.

And he wondered why every technique I used in battle was HEAVILY defensive! Three quarters of our opponents were potentially able to kill any one of us in two hits. I suspect heavy DM fudging occurred in almost every fight as he had to compensate for our weaknesses.

Leon
2008-01-13, 01:07 AM
Leon: Could you explain what you mean? Most parties, when constantly faced with encounters above party level, will just die, not realizing that they're not supposed to stand and fight every time. After all, how heroic is it to run away all the time? (Unless you're playing that kind of game... but I can't imagine that kind of game being all that fun. To each his own.)

Scripted encounters (those are rare, i wing it most times) will be more or less equal but random critters in the wilds may or may not be some thing that you could take on

You encounter a bear in the woods - its going about its life untill some twit with a sword has a go at it, Player Stupidity at work - that bear is there to flesh out the world not as a "challenge"

Ive on a couple of occasions mentioned a incident with a Dire Boar and that was the result of 1 pig in the wilds minding its own business untill 2 idiots ticked it off (They also learned in that campagin not to mess with Draconic related creatures - amazing what fun you can have with a pseudo dragon)

Way back ages ago i had the party investigating a castle- there were trolls in that castle, they played smart and fled since they had nothing to keep a troll down. they werent the "correct" level for a troll but i find the sugar coating of a world a bit silly - much to MMOish (Dont get me wrong its a alright thing some times - just not all the time)


Hmm, rambling

Linky for those that want the Boar story - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2301015&postcount=11

Archangel Yuki
2008-01-13, 01:13 AM
Generally, I throw CR's about 2 or 3 higher then the party level. see how many they can take a day. :D

When creating your world, please dont make an oblivion style world, where everywhere they go it is scaled to their level. Make the world like they were not there; make it like a world would be.