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DementedFellow
2008-01-12, 12:01 AM
Okay, so we all know these Ioun stones will circle around the character in a 3ft circle. Some grant really extraordinary magic. Funnily enough, we're not going to be concerned with any of them. We want the dull gray ones.

Let's say you start out with 15000 gp. Dull gray Ioun stones cost 25 gp. This means you could conceivably have 600 stones. Think of the AC boost. Attacker would have to Break through the circle of stones in order to hurt you. Consequently, you couldn't attack either. Unless you were a caster, then you've got your own little portable sanctuary. Granted, you can still be hurt by Area spells and whatnot, but arrows are virtually harmless.

Any thoughts?

BRC
2008-01-12, 12:03 AM
Ion stones provide no protection against the faling rocks your DM will drop on you

Crow
2008-01-12, 12:04 AM
I don't think this would help you all that much since all the stones need to be about 3 feet from your head. That means your entire lower body will be exposed.

Kizara
2008-01-12, 12:05 AM
It works like this:

1) 1 Dull gray Ioun Stone grants 0 AC bonus.

2) Infinate Dull Gray Ioun Stones also grant 0 AC bonus.

My thoughts. Also, stop trying to kill catgirls.

olelia
2008-01-12, 12:05 AM
So..protection vs blunt force head trauma? >.>

The_Snark
2008-01-12, 12:05 AM
It's not terribly helpful, but they got rid of this type of ioun stone in 3.5.

Felius
2008-01-12, 12:06 AM
I don't think this would help you all that much since all the stones need to be about 3 feet from your head. That means your entire lower body will be exposed.

And there would be around 600 rocks blocking your vision.

But it might work if you are a halfling and measures less the 3 feet. :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2008-01-12, 12:08 AM
It's not terribly helpful, but they got rid of this type of ioun stone in 3.5.

Still there, actually; burning out spell-absorbing stones still creates them. They just don't have a separate table entry any more.

DementedFellow
2008-01-12, 12:09 AM
And there would be around 600 rocks blocking your vision.

But it might work if you are a halfling and measures less the 3 feet. :smallbiggrin:

This is kinda what I had in mind actually.

Signmaker
2008-01-12, 12:11 AM
There's always the issue that the stones will bang in to each other, and that you yourself will be distracted (hello, spinning objects all around your head?) and that your vision will be obscured.

Nebo_
2008-01-12, 12:14 AM
This is going on the list of stupid things that people think will work, but obviously won't.

MCerberus
2008-01-12, 12:14 AM
I wonder how long it would take someone to go insane if there were a light or continual flame cast on a dull gray...

Mark Hall
2008-01-12, 12:17 AM
I wonder how long it would take someone to go insane if there were a light or continual flame cast on a dull gray...

Actually, that sounds like a really good use for a Dull Gray... cast light (or CL) on it and have a hands-free light source.

I am STEALING that idea.

The_Snark
2008-01-12, 12:17 AM
Still there, actually; burning out spell-absorbing stones still creates them. They just don't have a separate table entry any more.

They don't have a listed cost for burnt-out stones, though. Finding hundreds of them could be problematic.

In any case, I've always seen ioun stones as being easy to knock out of the air, meaning that they wouldn't block any serious weapon attack.

DementedFellow
2008-01-12, 12:23 AM
They don't have a listed cost for burnt-out stones, though. Finding hundreds of them could be problematic.

In any case, I've always seen ioun stones as being easy to knock out of the air, meaning that they wouldn't block any serious weapon attack.

Well, considering that they have 10 hit points and a hardness of 5, weapon would have to do a lot of considerable damage to get past them to the halfling inside. Not to mention that they have an AC of 24. Picture slashing into a rolling orb of stones. With that high AC for an cheapo magic item, it could conceivably happen that they would merely, "roll with the punches" and no damage is given at all to the stones or the person "wearing" them.

Crow
2008-01-12, 12:25 AM
Yes, they "roll with the punches" and the maul plows on through to the halfling under them...

MCerberus
2008-01-12, 12:26 AM
Actually, that sounds like a really good use for a Dull Gray... cast light (or CL) on it and have a hands-free light source.

I am STEALING that idea.

That's essentially all they're good for... unless you can convince your DM that you can inscribe REALLY TINY explosive runes and sell the thing to your enemies.

One of my fighters had one. I kept thinking how annoying the little bugger would be.

The_Snark
2008-01-12, 12:28 AM
The thing is, you don't have to smash through them—you'd just need to knock them out of the air, or aside a bit. They're not at all hard to budge from their orbits. A club is just going to bat the stones aside on its way to the halfling in the center.

It's like trying to claim that a bead curtain is an impenetrable barrier.

You might be able to wrangle concealment out of it, but you'd suffer all the same drawbacks they would.

Mark Hall
2008-01-12, 12:29 AM
They don't have a listed cost for burnt-out stones, though. Finding hundreds of them could be problematic.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/basics.htm

Psionicists like them. A 1 point cognizance crystal costs 1000gp, but can be reused. Given that Dull Greys have value about on par with a 1st level scroll, by a 1st level caster (i.e. can only be used once, by those with the ability to access those powers normally), I would say that a reasonable cost would be equal to that of a 1st level scroll by a 1st level caster, or about 25gp. That it floats instead of residing in a scroll case is a bit of a wash... while more accessible, it is also more vulnerable.


In any case, I've always seen ioun stones as being easy to knock out of the air, meaning that they wouldn't block any serious weapon attack.

Ioun stones have AC 24, 10 hit points, and hardness 5.

RTGoodman
2008-01-12, 12:30 AM
It's not terribly helpful, but they got rid of this type of ioun stone in 3.5.

Actually, they're still around, hidden in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, I believe. I don't know if it has the cost, but you psionic characters can suck one power point out of a dull gray ioun stone, and thus disintegrating it.

Gimme a minute and I'll find the price.


EDIT: Found them, but they don't have a price, and apparently I got ninja'd anyway. :smallsigh:

Mark Hall
2008-01-12, 12:31 AM
That's essentially all they're good for... unless you can convince your DM that you can inscribe REALLY TINY explosive runes and sell the thing to your enemies.

One of my fighters had one. I kept thinking how annoying the little bugger would be.

I'm somewhat influenced by "Rhialto the Marvellous." One of the characters in the book had spent several hundred (thousand?) alone with nothing but his IOUN stones (which absorbed spell levels, incidentally) and had named them. He had dozens.

MCerberus
2008-01-12, 12:32 AM
Ioun stones have AC 24, 10 hit points, and hardness 5.

I think what was meant is that if you hold a steel plate in the path of an ioun stone, the thing doesn't just zip through it ripping a hole in the thing, it just makes a thunk and falls down.

Mark Hall
2008-01-12, 12:34 AM
I think what was meant is that if you hold a steel plate in the path of an ioun stone, the thing doesn't just zip through it ripping a hole in the thing, it just makes a thunk and falls down.

I read "a serious weapon attack" as attempting to play baseball with someone's head comets.

Ozymandias
2008-01-12, 12:34 AM
The thing is, you don't have to smash through them—you'd just need to knock them out of the air, or aside a bit. They're not at all hard to budge from their orbits. A club is just going to bat the stones aside on its way to the halfling in the center.


Mr(s) Snark, how many bashes does it take to get to the halfling center of an Ioun stone pop?

Just One.

I think the AC/Hardness is irrelevant, as the stones aren't the target but an impediment thereto.

Collin152
2008-01-12, 12:34 AM
If you get enough of them, can a gnome use them as a platform to shot his crossbow from?
If so, chalk up one more use for both ion stones and Gnomes.

MCerberus
2008-01-12, 12:35 AM
I read "a serious weapon attack" as attempting to play baseball with someone's head comets.

Okay that's it. Time to create rules for Ioun Stone baseball.

@V I'm a computer programmer. I live my whole life with *klink* *fall down*, unfortunately.

DementedFellow
2008-01-12, 12:36 AM
I think what was meant is that if you hold a steel plate in the path of an ioun stone, the thing doesn't just zip through it ripping a hole in the thing, it just makes a thunk and falls down.

I'm still of the opinion that it wouldn't "fall down". Think of the asteroid belt. Are we do assume that when two asteroids smash into each other they will no longer be affected by the gravitational pull and will plummet straight down?

If someone held something in the way, chances are they would go around or change course. Not go *klink* and fall down.

Crow
2008-01-12, 12:39 AM
If someone held something in the way, chances are they would go around or change course. Not go *klink* and fall down.

So what you're saying is that the stones would move to avoid the blow that is coming towards the halfling...

Collin152
2008-01-12, 12:40 AM
No, they'd resist the obstruction in an effort to continue their orbit.

DementedFellow
2008-01-12, 12:40 AM
Mr(s) Snark, how many bashes does it take to get to the halfling center of an Ioun stone pop?

Just One.

I think the AC/Hardness is irrelevant, as the stones aren't the target but an impediment thereto.

It would give concealment bonus to AC. Besides, where would you attack? How deep? You're looking at a 40-50% miss chance and even if you get a 9/10ths concealment - that's still a +10 concealment bonus to AC.

The_Snark
2008-01-12, 12:42 AM
So they do still have the gray ones. Interesting. No wonder I'd missed them, though, they're pretty hidden...

Concealment gives a percent miss chance (maximum 50% if you can't see the target at all), not a bonus to AC. But if the ioun stones are completely hiding you from view, then you're blind anyway.

(And if it starts to annoy the DM, all it takes is a single enemy with Great Cleave...)

BRC
2008-01-12, 12:42 AM
Okay that's it. Time to create rules for Ioun Stone baseball.


Nah, Delayed Blast fireball baseball!

MCerberus
2008-01-12, 12:44 AM
It would give concealment bonus to AC. Besides, where would you attack? How deep? You're looking at a 40-50% miss chance and even if you get a 9/10ths concealment - that's still a +10 concealment bonus to AC.

By that logic the person inside is effectively blind. Plus, there are just certain areas that the stones can't hide (like the feet)... and this is assuming the stones fly around in a 3d orbit. I always thought there was no Z axis for Ioun stone flight.

Conclusion: IF they work that way, it would still be a detrament more to the protected than attacker.

@^ I prefer Delayed Blast Tennis.

DementedFellow
2008-01-12, 12:44 AM
So they do still have the gray ones. Interesting. No wonder I'd missed them, though, they're pretty hidden...

Concealment gives a percent miss chance (maximum 50% if you can't see the target at all), not a bonus to AC. But if the ioun stones are completely hiding you from view, then you're blind anyway.

(And if it starts to annoy the DM, all it takes is a single enemy with Great Cleave...)

It could be because I'm looking at an older PHB. But I see a simple table on page 133 that talks about concealment. 9/10s confers a +10 cover bonus to AC.

Collin152
2008-01-12, 12:46 AM
By that logic the person inside is effectively blind. Plus, there are just certain areas that the stones can't hide (like the feet)... and this is assuming the stones fly around in a 3d orbit. I always thought there was no Z axis for Ioun stone flight.

Conclusion: IF they work that way, it would still be a detrament more to the protected than attacker.

@^ I prefer Delayed Blast Tennis.

2D flight? Does that even exist?

DementedFellow
2008-01-12, 12:48 AM
Also, to combat the blind problem, one could have their familiar give them directions. Just a thought. ;)

Mark Hall
2008-01-12, 12:50 AM
I think they almost certainly have to actively avoid attacks and impediments, simply based on their AC. With a Base of 10, and a size of Fine, they get an AC of 18. The other 6 points MIGHT be natural armor, but it's rare for things with hardness to have that, yes? Especially since there is no mention of an AC reduction for simply trying to grab it (i.e. initiate a grapple) instead of attack it. It might be Deflection, but since they're moving, it also makes equal sense for at least some of it to be Dexterity (or something similar).

MCerberus
2008-01-12, 12:50 AM
2D flight? Does that even exist?

Essentially it does not go up or down. Remember drawing pictures of atoms in school? Draw me a Helium atom on a piece of paper. The nucleus is the PC's head. The electrons are ioun stones. Now, for Ioun stones you aren't limted to 2 in the 1s orbital (the picture is the important part. I know full well orbitals are 3d). Put as many ioun stones in there as will fit. Essentially if I were the GM, that's what your 'cloud' would be. You'd have a hard time seeing with no benefit.

BRC
2008-01-12, 12:51 AM
Also, to combat the blind problem, one could have their familiar give them directions. Just a thought. ;)
I very much doubt that would work for attacks, especially since your opponents would get the same cocealability that you do. Also you would bump into things.

Mark Hall
2008-01-12, 12:53 AM
Essentially it does not go up or down. Remember drawing pictures of atoms in school? Draw me a Helium atom on a piece of paper. The nucleus is the PC's head. The electrons are ioun stones. Now, for Ioun stones you aren't limted to 2 in the 1s orbital (the picture is the important part. I know full well orbitals are 3d). Put as many ioun stones in there as will fit. Essentially if I were the GM, that's what your 'cloud' would be. You'd have a hard time seeing with no benefit.

I prefer the picture of Elorfindar in the 2nd edition boxed set, The North, with a cloud, or the description in Rhialto the Marvellous, with them following behind him, some of them catching up, some falling behind, as he walked.

Collin152
2008-01-12, 12:53 AM
Essentially it does not go up or down. Remember drawing pictures of atoms in school? Draw me a Helium atom on a piece of paper. The nucleus is the PC's head. The electrons are ioun stones. Now, for Ioun stones you aren't limted to 2 in the 1s orbital (the picture is the important part. I know full well orbitals are 3d). Put as many ioun stones in there as will fit. Essentially if I were the GM, that's what your 'cloud' would be. You'd have a hard time seeing with no benefit.

Either way, they form a cloud 3 feet in all directions from your head. Each one only moves in a 2d ish circle, but there is only so much 2d space 3 feet fom your head.
Next, design some blinders that will keep them away from your eyes...

DementedFellow
2008-01-12, 12:54 AM
I very much doubt that would work for attacks, especially since your opponents would get the same cocealability that you do. Also you would bump into things.
My idea was never meant for an attacker. But rather as a cheap way of AC. With no weight drawbacks. Sure it isn't feasible in any sense, but it seems like a neat way of removing one's self from battle.

Ozymandias
2008-01-12, 12:58 AM
Essentially it does not go up or down. Remember drawing pictures of atoms in school? Draw me a Helium atom on a piece of paper. The nucleus is the PC's head. The electrons are ioun stones. Now, for Ioun stones you aren't limted to 2 in the 1s orbital (the picture is the important part. I know full well orbitals are 3d). Put as many ioun stones in there as will fit. Essentially if I were the GM, that's what your 'cloud' would be. You'd have a hard time seeing with no benefit.

And thus is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle reduced to a d20 roll.

The orbital atom instruction-model always struck me as silly and counter-productive. I don't think there is a time where one is simultaneously unable to understand quantum probability clouds and in dire need to understand subatomic structural models.

Regardless, having the ring might confer a minor defensive bonus, so if it's a free action to doff or don it it might be useful as a "between turn" deal.

Collin152
2008-01-12, 12:59 AM
Suppose you had really small archers with high balance skill. Personal attacking aura of doom.

Mark Hall
2008-01-12, 01:00 AM
And thus is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle reduced to a d20 roll.

And thus, I am inspired. I'm stealing this for a poster.

Lizardfolk Lich
2008-01-12, 01:01 AM
Here's a summary of why this won't work,

1.DM anger.
2.Too many stones, they hit each other and fall, ect.
3.A weapon could go straight through the stones because their orbit isn't very powerful.

MCerberus
2008-01-12, 01:05 AM
My idea was never meant for an attacker. But rather as a cheap way of AC. With no weight drawbacks. Sure it isn't feasible in any sense, but it seems like a neat way of removing one's self from battle.

*launches ICBM at catgirl planet* now that that's out of the way. Well by saying this would work you killed enough of them anyway, so that was just for fun.

If you assume that the stones can collide with each other and stay aloft, and you assume that they form a cloud instead of a 2d orbit, then you must consider this:

When they collide they must accelerate to correct their course. Their average speed would increase with the frequency of collision. If you had a truly large enough cloud of them, the average speed of each stone would be so fast that you could see through the cloud much like you can still read the forums if you wave your hand quickly in front of your face. This would give you, AT MOST the effect of a Blur spell, at a much higher cost.

Now then, the stones would have to have negligable mass or the cloud would destroy itself through the exchange of momentum in collisions *launches post-nuke chem strike*. Since momentum is negligable, they, and this is important, will not stop a weapon strike.

If any of the assumptions made are incorrect, the thing wouldn't have gotten close to working in the first place. It would work in real life is not a valid argument here.

Editted for semantics - Velocity is directional. I was looking for "speed".

Mark Hall
2008-01-12, 01:15 AM
And thus is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle reduced to a d20 roll.

Since I told y'all about my inspiration, I thought I'd share the fruits (spoilered, of course)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2214/2187098760_6112bd58e8.jpg

DementedFellow
2008-01-12, 01:16 AM
*launches ICBM at catgirl planet* now that that's out of the way. Well by saying this would work you killed enough of them anyway, so that was just for fun.

If you assume that the stones can collide with each other and stay aloft, and you assume that they form a cloud instead of a 2d orbit, then you must consider this:

When they collide they must accelerate to correct their course. Their average velocity would increase with the frequency of collision. If you had a truly large enough cloud of them, the average velocity of each stone would be so fast that you could see through the cloud much like you can still read the forums if you wave your hand quickly in front of your face. This would give you, AT MOST the effect of a Blur spell, at a much higher cost.

Now then, the stones would have to have negligable mass or the cloud would destroy itself through the exchange of momentum in collisions *launches post-nuke chem strike*. Since momentum is negligable, they, and this is important, will not stop a weapon strike.

If any of the assumptions made are incorrect, the thing wouldn't have gotten close to working in the first place. It would work in real life is not a valid argument here.
I just have one problem with your assumption - wherein did it say that it corrects its course? Just because it bounces into other ones, that doesn't mean that it will say, "Ye Gods! I must catch up with traffic!" Instead it will just go on it's own meandering course. And the way the item is described it leaves it open to interpretation, but namely, the idea that the stone will go flying back at the wielder isn't mentioned, as I'm sure some psions or some sorcerers would have been most pissed at this formerly useful item. I'm sure the creators of the items in the book would tell us if there was a chance (albeit a small one) that the stone could collide and hit the wielder.

JimmyDPawn
2008-01-12, 10:47 AM
It could be because I'm looking at an older PHB. But I see a simple table on page 133 that talks about concealment. 9/10s confers a +10 cover bonus to AC.

9/10 COVER provides +10 AC, and suggests that there's most of a solid barrier between you and them. Concealment provides a random miss chance regardless AC, which is when your sight is obscured.

And right now, I'm just imagine some sort of swarm trying to navigate through your head-cloud, like x-wings in a asteroid belt. :P

"I have a shot!"
"Ow! My nose!"