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View Full Version : DR and Coup de Grace's



Vonriel
2008-01-13, 03:01 AM
So, this seems a rather unique situation. In a game I'm in, one of our characters tried to coup de grace this wizard that really pissed her off, but he had stoneskin on. The autocrit from coup de grace didn't break his DR, so he took 0 damage, but he failed the save for the coup de grace and died. From an attack that glanced off of his stoneskin. How would you guys rule this? And, has this ever come up before?

Thamir
2008-01-13, 03:07 AM
Well here is how I see it...

A coup de grace is like slitting someones throat, you find a vital point and cut at it. You can take as much time as you want to drive the dagger in rather than just glancing it off in combat. The wizard should have died!

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-01-13, 03:16 AM
So, this seems a rather unique situation. In a game I'm in, one of our characters tried to coup de grace this wizard that really pissed her off, but he had stoneskin on. The autocrit from coup de grace didn't break his DR, so he took 0 damage, but he failed the save for the coup de grace and died. From an attack that glanced off of his stoneskin. How would you guys rule this? And, has this ever come up before?

Dying from a DC 10 fort save is hilarious:smallbiggrin: , by RAW you seemed to have handled it correctly, by RAI you could well say the wizard survives, you might take all the time in the world to aim, but if the dagger can't get through the skin then it can't really harm the wizard right? How was the wizard immobilized so that your players could coup de grace him?

Fiery Diamond
2008-01-13, 03:21 AM
I would treat coup de grace as insta-kill, regardless of hitpoints-that much is obvious intent of the rule. However, for getting through dr, it shouldn't be an autocrit, rather, an autocrit with max damage rolls.

-Fiery Diamond

KeithTheThinker
2008-01-13, 03:25 AM
I'd have to agree. The wizard might not have lost HP, but the character managed to slit the wizard's throat, or sever the spinal cord, or something along those lines.

You could also rationalize that Stoneskin isn't meant to be taken literally. The target is magically protected from damage, but still has his or her fleshy pink skin underneath. Your ally somehow Coup de Grace'd his blade into the shield and mortally wounded the Wizard.

Dhavaer
2008-01-13, 03:36 AM
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

I'd say the wizard didn't have to save, and so wouldn't have died.

Dausuul
2008-01-13, 03:45 AM
I'd say the wizard didn't have to save, and so wouldn't have died.

I agree. If DR negates the damage, there is no save.


I would treat coup de grace as insta-kill, regardless of hitpoints-that much is obvious intent of the rule. However, for getting through dr, it shouldn't be an autocrit, rather, an autocrit with max damage rolls.

No, that's obviously not the intent of the rule. If the intent of the coup de grace rules was to be an insta-kill, they would say, "The victim of a coup de grace dies instantly." The rules are meant to allow a chance of survival. That's why there's, y'know, a damage roll, and a saving throw.

Now, if the wizard were paralyzed or tied up or something, in a non-combat situation, I'd dispense with the rules and say "You just kill him." But if he was merely asleep, or if this was in the middle of a fight, then the normal rules should apply.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-01-13, 03:56 AM
I'd have to agree. The wizard might not have lost HP, but the character managed to slit the wizard's throat, or sever the spinal cord, or something along those lines.

You could also rationalize that Stoneskin isn't meant to be taken literally. The target is magically protected from damage, but still has his or her fleshy pink skin underneath. Your ally somehow Coup de Grace'd his blade into the shield and mortally wounded the Wizard.

do you seriously think that physicly cutting a spinal cord would do no damage?
and how can the fact that there's still flesh beneath stoneskin negate it's effects? If I punch a wall and your on the other side of it you still feel nothing even if you still have "fleshy pink skin" behind that wall.

Voyager_I
2008-01-13, 04:02 AM
"The Rogue CDG's you while you are paralyzed, but he can't manage to drive his dagger through your Stoneskin. Roll Fort vs death."

Really, do we need to add more silliness to D&D rules when it isn't expressly necessary? If you can't even break the skin, it doesn't matter where you stab them. You aren't putting a knife through their eye, you're putting a small chip in the magical stone covering their entire body. No matter where that scratch is, it doesn't change the fact that you aren't actually doing any physical harm to the character.

Honestly, I hope you had to duck that d20 immediately after he failed the save.

KeithTheThinker
2008-01-13, 04:08 AM
do you seriously think that physicly cutting a spinal cord would do no damage?
and how can the fact that there's still flesh beneath stoneskin negate it's effects? If I punch a wall and your on the other side of it you still feel nothing even if you still have "fleshy pink skin" behind that wall.
No, it would cause damage, of course. Hence the dying and all.
But if I have ten hit points, and Sneaky McSneakerson sneaks up and Coup de Grace's me, does five damage, and then I fail a save, I can't very well turn around and say "Wait, but I still have hit points left!" Mister Wizard has hit points, as well as his temporary hit points from stoneskin, but all the hit points in the world can't save me or the wizard from an attack that kills instantly, can they?
I agree with the whole "trying to cut through skin without being stopped by a magical barrier" problem, and I'm certainly not qualified to make decisions and expect people to follow them, I'm just throwing in my two cents and seeing what other people think.
Honestly, it's a bit of a gray area, and I'd just let the DM decide or flip a coin.

Zeful
2008-01-13, 04:22 AM
Yeah according to the rules on DR the wizard took 0 damage from a CDG than the fort save would have also been negated as Dhavear pointed out the SRD quote.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-01-13, 04:22 AM
No, it would cause damage, of course. Hence the dying and all.
But if I have ten hit points, and Sneaky McSneakerson sneaks up and Coup de Grace's me, does five damage, and then I fail a save, I can't very well turn around and say "Wait, but I still have hit points left!"
If the wizard would take damage you'd be right, the whole problem is that the wizard doesn't take any damage a thus a exception should be made IMO, this isn't RAW however and you'd be in your right to kill him anyway.



Mister Wizard has hit points, as well as his temporary hit points from stoneskin, but all the hit points in the world can't save me or the wizard from an attack that kills instantly, can they?


Nice argument if stoneskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm) would work that way, however, it prevents damage and it doesn't give temp HP.



I agree with the whole "trying to cut through skin without being stopped by a magical barrier" problem, and I'm certainly not qualified to make decisions and expect people to follow them, I'm just throwing in my two cents and seeing what other people think.
Honestly, it's a bit of a gray area, and I'd just let the DM decide or flip a coin.
I disagree, it's not a grey area, RAW is clear on it, it's a pity that it conflicts with common sense though. I also believe that a rule conflict shouldn't be solved with a coin flip, you should just decide what ruling you want to follow.

KeithTheThinker
2008-01-13, 04:39 AM
Nice argument if stoneskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm) would work that way, however, it prevents damage and it doesn't give temp HP.
Right, sorry. d20srd.org won't open on this computer, and the only description I found was fairly vague until I grabbed the PHB.

I disagree, it's not a grey area, RAW is clear on it, it's a pity that it conflicts with common sense though. I also believe that a rule conflict shouldn't be solved with a coin flip, you should just decide what ruling you want to follow.
Fair enough. I've never DMed, and barely played, as I've been having a tough go of finding other players in the area.

Thank you for explaining your views to me, and I hope it will aid my understanding in the future.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-01-13, 04:44 AM
Right, sorry. d20srd.org won't open on this computer, and the only description I found was fairly vague until I grabbed the PHB.

Fair enough. I've never DMed, and barely played, as I've been having a tough go of finding other players in the area.

Thank you for explaining your views to me, and I hope it will aid my understanding in the future.

Try the sovelior sage (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) system reference, it's my personal favourite, I just use the hypertext one because it has a firefox add-on.

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-13, 04:49 AM
One could say that though it failed to penetrate, there was still a teeeeeeny bit of force that managed to do something weird and killed the guy.

Dervag
2008-01-13, 04:51 AM
Well here is how I see it...

A coup de grace is like slitting someones throat, you find a vital point and cut at it. You can take as much time as you want to drive the dagger in rather than just glancing it off in combat. The wizard should have died!Yes, but if the wizard has skin as hard as stone, you can saw at his throat for a very long time without 'cutting' it. I'd say that DR should apply to any situation where you have to roll a save against some direct physical consequence of being harmed by the attack, but I'd also say that reasonable people can disagree about this.


I would treat coup de grace as insta-kill, regardless of hitpoints-that much is obvious intent of the rule. However, for getting through dr, it shouldn't be an autocrit, rather, an autocrit with max damage rolls.

-Fiery DiamondWell, there may be a limit on what I can insta-kill. For example, imagine that I somehow figure out a way to restrain a giant rock-monster using an elaborate combination of nonlethal restraints and extremely strong guys to hold it down. It is now helpless.

It is also twenty feet tall and made out of granite. Will I be able to coup-de-grace it using a conventional longsword, or for that matter any weapon short of a demolition charge? I think not. It's so big and tough to hurt that my weapon simply cannot cause it meaningful harm, even if I target whatever vulnerable points its body might have.

Note that I'm not talking about a creature invulnerable to critical hits like a stone golem here. It's not that there are no places on the monster's body you could strike for increased damage, it's that there are no places on the monster's body I can hurt with the weapon in my hand.

SCPRedMage
2008-01-13, 05:50 AM
Did anyone actually bother to read Dhavaer's post? The SRD quote he gave spell it out clearly: if DR prevents damage entirely, it also prevents ALL special effects, INCLUDING the save or die from Coup de Grace.

Take no damage from Coup de Grace due to damage reduction, no saving throw necessary. This IS RAW.

MammonAzrael
2008-01-13, 06:28 AM
Of course, then the rouge could simply, oh, drop his dagger and snap the wizard's neck. I'm pretty sure Stoneskin doesn't stop that. Of course, that's assuming the wizard was paralyzed or something and not sleeping.

KillianHawkeye
2008-01-13, 08:53 AM
Of course, then the rouge could simply, oh, drop his dagger and snap the wizard's neck. I'm pretty sure Stoneskin doesn't stop that. Of course, that's assuming the wizard was paralyzed or something and not sleeping.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any feat or class ability that allows you to "snap somebody's neck". Maybe death attack? Would it even be snapable if his skin was made of stone?

daggaz
2008-01-13, 09:07 AM
Ummm... why would you even need to look up stoneskin or DR to adjucate this one? Far as I remembered, the fort save from a coup de grace is based on the damage DONE. As in, the amount of damage the target actually takes to their current HPs. In this case, the amount is zero, so the fort save is zero, which means you dont even roll it.

Seriously, anything else is rather rediculous... as made obvious by contorted arguments like "some mysterious extra force" or "you cut his spine, but somehow dont manage to do any HP damage."

Yeah.. its "damage dealt." Sorry, but you didnt deal any actual damage. You would have, but his DR soaked it all up and made it go bye-bye, which is what good DR should do anyhow. (also, its funny that an auto-crit didnt pass 10 damage. heh.)

F.L.
2008-01-13, 09:25 AM
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any feat or class ability that allows you to "snap somebody's neck". Maybe death attack? Would it even be snapable if his skin was made of stone?

Ah, but if the stone prevents the movement of the wizard's neck, it would obviously prevent the movement of the wizard entirely. So a stoneskinned being could have their neck snapped, or stoneskin paralyzes the caster.

Captain van der Decken
2008-01-13, 09:26 AM
Then how does a stone golem work?

KillianHawkeye
2008-01-13, 09:42 AM
Ah, but if the stone prevents the movement of the wizard's neck, it would obviously prevent the movement of the wizard entirely. So a stoneskinned being could have their neck snapped, or stoneskin paralyzes the caster.

LOL. You just reminded me of the full-body raccoon suit in Super Mario Bros. 3 that let Mario turn into an invincible statue for a few seconds. There should be a version that actually works that way. :smallwink:

Saph
2008-01-13, 10:56 AM
Dhavaer already answered this, really. The DR stops the damage from the CDG and so negates the special effect (the Fort save) that accompanies it. Which is completely sensible. If your dagger is bouncing off the guy's skin then how on earth is it going to kill him?

I hope the wizard wasn't one of the PCs, because if so, he or she is likely to become seriously irritated upon looking up the rules. If it's an NPC, of course, you're fine. :P

- Saph

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-13, 11:49 AM
Ummm... why would you even need to look up stoneskin or DR to adjucate this one?

The problem arises because the fortitude save is against a DC "10 + damage dealt".
If you did not have the line from DR that says that "Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects..." you could interpret it so you would have to make a fortitude save DC "10+0". :smallamused:

Luckily we do have the text from DR, as quoted by Dhavaer above, so the RAW on this matter is established.

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-13, 12:44 PM
RAW aside, I highly applaud killing someone with a DC 10 fort save.

I think this is one of those examples of having too many rules. Dying from a save based on the 0 damage you took makes a much better story than not dying from a coup de grace.

marjan
2008-01-13, 12:47 PM
RAW aside, I highly applaud killing someone with a DC 10 fort save.

I think this is one of those examples of having too many rules. Dying from a save based on the 0 damage you took makes a much better story than not dying from a coup de grace.

Though it brings up questions like how are telling that story?:smallwink:

daggaz
2008-01-13, 01:00 PM
The problem arises because the fortitude save is against a DC "10 + damage dealt".
If you did not have the line from DR that says that "Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects..." you could interpret it so you would have to make a fortitude save DC "10+0". :smallamused:

Luckily we do have the text from DR, as quoted by Dhavaer above, so the RAW on this matter is established.

Heh yeah, ok that. And common sense. If you dont hurt somebody, how are you forcing a save? Seriously... that is forcing the letter of the law to the game breaking extremes of utmost stupidity. Much like healing while drowning etc. One should expect the DM to deliver a solid whack upside the head with the DMG if you really push these sorts of arguments, especially since wizards is so famous for clumsy grammar and poorly worded statements.

If you really wanted to get nitpicky tho, I would argue that this sentence actually defeats the whole argument:

"If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die."

The defender has to survive the damage in order to have to make the save. If there is no damage, this clause of the argument never gets executed. You simply skip it over. No damage = nothing to survive/no risk of death = no save needed. Its pretty simple, really. I think the biggest mistake here, is that people try to read the RAW like its some sort of iron-clad legal document, and in doing so, they not only lose grip on reality, they also miss some of the finer points of logic and grammar.

Worira
2008-01-13, 01:17 PM
Although it has no actual relevance, does stoneskin give you stone eyes?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-13, 01:50 PM
Heh yeah, ok that. And common sense. If you dont hurt somebody, how are you forcing a save? Seriously... that is forcing the letter of the law to the game breaking extremes of utmost stupidity. Much like healing while drowning etc. One should expect the DM to deliver a solid whack upside the head with the DMG if you really push these sorts of arguments, especially since wizards is so famous for clumsy grammar and poorly worded statements.

True, but that is not always the case. Sometimes applying common sense will bring you into conflict with the RAW or even lead to unbalancing results.
That and sometimes common sense is not so common....



If you really wanted to get nitpicky tho, I would argue that this sentence actually defeats the whole argument:

"If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die."

The defender has to survive the damage in order to have to make the save. If there is no damage, this clause of the argument never gets executed. You simply skip it over. No damage = nothing to survive/no risk of death = no save needed. Its pretty simple, really. I think the biggest mistake here, is that people try to read the RAW like its some sort of iron-clad legal document, and in doing so, they not only lose grip on reality, they also miss some of the finer points of logic and grammar.

It is a reasonable interpretation, which alone could lead to a reasonable ruling, but because we have the text for DR we don't even have to argue over the two interpretations about CdG results, so the RAW in this case actually proved to perfectly logic and within the realms of game reality, verisimilitude. (That is of course not always the case)

horseboy
2008-01-13, 03:05 PM
Yeah, unless you're implementing a "the slow blade penetrates the shield" house rule to deal with DR as a whole, he shouldn't have died.

Yahzi
2008-01-13, 04:20 PM
Really, do we need to add more silliness to D&D rules when it isn't expressly necessary?
That's a good point.

There's already a mechanic for dying when someone attacks you with a weapon. It's called negative hit points. Why would we need another mechanic? CDG should do a lot of hps. Either that kills you or it doesn't.

MammonAzrael
2008-01-13, 04:23 PM
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any feat or class ability that allows you to "snap somebody's neck". Maybe death attack? Would it even be snapable if his skin was made of stone?

And why would you need a feat to snap someone's neck? This isn't some specialized technique, it's just grip, and twist until dead. Stoneskin never said it affects flexibility, so that shouldn't stand in the way.

Not that it matters much. :smalltongue:

Person_Man
2008-01-13, 04:26 PM
I would treat coup de grace as insta-kill, regardless of hitpoints-that much is obvious intent of the rule. However, for getting through dr, it shouldn't be an autocrit, rather, an autocrit with max damage rolls.

I would caution against changing the coup de grace rule. There's a feat that changes it to a Standard action. And there are several ways to render an opponent helpless, through Freezing the Lifeblood, fear effects, plenty of spells, etc.

its_all_ogre
2008-01-13, 04:48 PM
And why would you need a feat to snap someone's neck? This isn't some specialized technique, it's just grip, and twist until dead. Stoneskin never said it affects flexibility, so that shouldn't stand in the way.

Not that it matters much. :smalltongue:

cause that would be treated as a grapple attack, like normal, therefore chances are that the damage would be same as dagger overall...

Dausuul
2008-01-13, 06:46 PM
And why would you need a feat to snap someone's neck? This isn't some specialized technique, it's just grip, and twist until dead. Stoneskin never said it affects flexibility, so that shouldn't stand in the way.

If the wizard sits still for it (or is paralyzed/unconscious), you might be able to make this work if you twisted hard enough and long enough. Of course, if the wizard is sitting still for it, you can just beat on him until his stoneskin is used up, or until you roll well on your auto-crit and get through the DR.

Snapping a person's neck in a single quick twist, like Arnold Schwarzenegger in True Lies, is not something everybody knows how to do, or has the strength to do. The fact that there was only one coup de grace roll involved suggests to me that the wizard was not, in fact, planning to sit still for it, and was attacked while asleep.

Saithis Bladewing
2008-01-14, 01:38 PM
I'd say the wizard didn't have to save, and so wouldn't have died.

Given the quote, it's a good thing I ruled it basically the same way without any prior knowledge of that particular ruling. Because it was either say DR can negate a CDG, or get revenge by continually forcing DC 10 fort saves vs. CDG death during the middle of the night until they felt suitably humbled. :smallamused:


The fact that there was only one coup de grace roll involved suggests to me that the wizard was not, in fact, planning to sit still for it, and was attacked while asleep.

He was tackled, grappled, gagged, tied up and forced into helplessness. Despite all of that, he was a sorceror with spontaneous metamagic and still/silent spell/eschew materials, as they quickly learned the hard way. They made one before the one that failed but he made his save, then they calmed bloodthirsty party member down and got low-on-3rd-level-spells-and-metamagic-uses Sorceror to surrender.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-14, 02:13 PM
I think dying on a DC 10 is hilarious, if a wrong decision, but I think we fail to see the true humor of this predicament. The party was fighting a sorcorer with 4th level spells (8th level character minimum) and tried to coup de grace with a weapon that couldn't do enough damage to get past 10 points of DR. Now that's true comedy.

sikyon
2008-01-14, 02:19 PM
I would have ruled that it was fine, and the check should have been made.

HP is not representative of actual wounds, someone with 1 HP out of 100 functions the same as if he had 100 HP. It is abstract. The fortitude save is again abstract, detailing how no matter how tough you are, if you are bound and helpless, planned and direct trauma like that will deal substantial shock to anyone's body.

I would have ruled that even though DR negated damage to 0, the subject still was wounded and his system failed from the precision damage shock. His HP might not have gone down, but HP is not representative of actually being wounded.

EDIT: In retrospect, the main reason I would have ruled it this way was to give the little guy a chance.

Burley
2008-01-14, 02:49 PM
Yeah according to the rules on DR the wizard took 0 damage from a CDG than the fort save would have also been negated as Dhavear pointed out the SRD quote.

Read the line about DR again. It quite clearly states "MOST special effects." That means...at least in grade school...NOT all.

If we all turn our attention to the SRD again, under the Helpless Defenders/Coup De Grace entry:


You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

You automatically hit. It's right there, it doesn't glance off of the armor, it hits. Automatically.
If the defender survives (which happened in this case of damage) he must save. He didn't save, even though it was only 10+0 fort.

Let's say that you have a strength penalty of -1, and swing a club and roll a one for damage. You still hit the bloody enemy. Even if it does no damage, you can't ignore that there was a hit.
The rules of Coup de Grace do not state that you must deal damage, only that you add the damage dealt to the DC. It's a modifier. That's it.

Besides, if you're angry at a Wizard and take the risky round of killing it off, hell...it should die.

GoC
2008-01-14, 03:00 PM
The rules of Coup de Grace do not state that you must deal damage,

As has been pointed out earlier they actualy do.

If the defender survives the damage,
That implies that there was damage to survive. No damage=no CdG.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-14, 03:13 PM
You automatically hit. It's right there, it doesn't glance off of the armor, it hits. Automatically.

You hit, but the hit has no effect.


Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or to ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.

Or perhaps it has the same effect as if you were hit with a piece of wet celery...



Let's say that you have a strength penalty of -1, and swing a club and roll a one for damage. You still hit the bloody enemy. Even if it does no damage, you can't ignore that there was a hit.


In that case you would deal 1 point of damage, since that is the minimum damage.

Unless of course the enemy had DR. Then your attack would be without any effect... except perhaps something similar to that of a wet celery...