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Emperor Demonking
2008-01-13, 11:48 AM
Are bards cool?

Personally I say they can be cool depending on how they're played.

horseboy
2008-01-13, 11:49 AM
Usually in a "only in their minds" kinda way.

TRM
2008-01-13, 11:50 AM
Actually, I have trouble taking them seriously. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html)

KIDS
2008-01-13, 11:51 AM
Any class can be cool, and bard by its design has some bias to it (generalist Fail), though only slightly. If it makes someone feel cool to play a bard... sure, why not.

marjan
2008-01-13, 11:51 AM
You can make cool character of any class. But bard =/=> cool.

Spiryt
2008-01-13, 11:51 AM
Personally I say they can be cool depending on how they're played.

That can be said about almost every class.

Anyway, yeah bards can be cool.

Signmaker
2008-01-13, 11:56 AM
My current bard can sing, dance, play stringed and wind instruments, can speak in twelve different languages, and has a passion for books, which is displayed by her ridiculous variety of knowledge ranks. She can tumble, climb, sweet-talk all sorts of people, and, oh, and she can also call down lightning with the power of her voice. :smallwink:

Sure, a stiff breeze could probably penetrate her 16 AC, but godbedamned if she isn't useful outside of combat.

Ichneumon
2008-01-13, 11:58 AM
They can be when you move away from the cliché image of a bard. A sterotype fighter/wizard/druid/cleric is already cool, but a bard is not. My best character ever was a LE gnome bard/shadowcaster. ALright, our DM allowed me to ingore the alignment restrictions, but that is just a minor detail. He was the perfect egocentrical trickster (with a large amount of loyalty to the party's goal). He was sort of the leader/diplomat of the party and I had a flute that summoned rat swarms that I used to use all the time. Yes, bards can be cool.

Copacetic
2008-01-13, 11:59 AM
Are people Bards cool? Depends entirely on which bard we're talking to.

Glyde
2008-01-13, 12:09 PM
Depends on the roleplaying. I think Bards have a good potential to be cool, though.

Talya
2008-01-13, 12:11 PM
They can be when you move away from the cliché image of a bard. A sterotype fighter/wizard/druid/cleric is already cool, but a bard is not.


That's only true if people don't know much about the origin of the bard in real life gaelic history, where they were damn cool.

(of course, if you were going to use the hibernian gaelic bard model, you rather have to rewrite druid...because bards and druids were just different branches of the same order.)

Oeep Snaec
2008-01-13, 12:13 PM
They can be especially handy when you need to escape from somewhere and the guards are stupid. Just hid behind a potted plant (or anything for that matter) and throw your voice to draw the guards away from you. Works like a charm, and it saved our party from a confrontation in which we had no gear.

ocato
2008-01-13, 12:34 PM
I'm cool because I don't need to be told I'm cool.

Right?

Right?!

Chronicled
2008-01-13, 12:34 PM
Bards can be very cool. I've seen some absolutely badass bards.

It's sort of like saying "are wizards cool?". The stereotype is a weak bookworm, but people have made very cool wizards.

ashmanonar
2008-01-13, 12:55 PM
They can be when you move away from the cliché image of a bard. A sterotype fighter/wizard/druid/cleric is already cool, but a bard is not. My best character ever was a LE gnome bard/shadowcaster. ALright, our DM allowed me to ingore the alignment restrictions, but that is just a minor detail. He was the perfect egocentrical trickster (with a large amount of loyalty to the party's goal). He was sort of the leader/diplomat of the party and I had a flute that summoned rat swarms that I used to use all the time. Yes, bards can be cool.

I HATE rat swarms.

*half-orc smash*

I have caught more diseases and curses from rats...

See my sig for more details.

Jerthanis
2008-01-13, 12:56 PM
Very subjective, but Bards can be as cool as anything else. They make good 5th party members because with splatbooks they can buff better than most others, and in ways most others can't buff. Even without splats they still have some good Save-ors. Later on they seem to lose effectiveness, but doesn't everything these days?

So yeah, they can be perfectly cool, since coolness is more in how you play than what you play.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-13, 01:06 PM
Some bards are cool. Some are not. It is not the class that makes the character, but the character that makes the class.

Wulfram
2008-01-13, 02:34 PM
No.

But if you don't mind going into a prestige class, I think it's one of the Dashing Swordsman's class features.

wowy319
2008-01-13, 02:37 PM
Personally, I love playing bards.

Lorn
2008-01-13, 02:47 PM
Yes. Yes they are. If you do things right at least. (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/GuestWeek2005/oots0306.gif)

Tengu
2008-01-13, 02:56 PM
Imagine your favorite rock/metal band. In DND, they'd be bards. Now say bards can't be cool.

kieza
2008-01-13, 02:56 PM
I've got a homebrewed variant Bard that I used for a low-magic campaign; it gets 1d6 sneak attack/4 levels instead of spells, plus a lot of extra music effects. The sneak attack worked great in conjunction with fascinate; he just fascinated everyone who looked like attacking him, and then sneak attacked them before they could recover. Plus, he could still do the usual bardic music, plus grant spell DC boosts and fast healing 2 in a 30 ft. radius. He was very much a generalist, but still managed to contribute. He managed to get the party past 3 guardposts in a row by fascinating all the guards, then charming them to come with them and assist.

Da Beast
2008-01-13, 03:02 PM
Not in the way that other classes are cool. (http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=51)

If played right bards can be awesome. Outwitting everyone with crafty spells and skill checks is always fun. Just look out for the barbarian when his player finally gets fed up with never actually fighting anything.

marjan
2008-01-13, 03:12 PM
Imagine your favorite rock/metal band. In DND, they'd be bards. Now say bards can't be cool.

You should ask yourself this:
If members of your favorite rock band looked like Gimble would they still be your favorite?

Chronicled
2008-01-13, 03:34 PM
You should ask yourself this:
If members of your favorite rock band looked like Gimble would they still be your favorite?

More like: If Gimble looked like the coolest member of your favorite rock band, would he be cool?

mikeejimbo
2008-01-13, 03:36 PM
I have a bard named Gyre. He's a cousin of Gimble's. I think he's pretty cool, though not in a Powergaming kind of way, so much as a "Well there's a neat character" way.

Morty
2008-01-13, 03:48 PM
You should ask yourself this:
If members of your favorite rock band looked like Gimble would they still be your favorite?

And you should ask yourself this question(man, this is a lot of questions): why should any bard look like Gimble?

marjan
2008-01-13, 03:56 PM
And you should ask yourself this question(man, this is a lot of questions): why should any bard look like Gimble?

Think of it. When you advertise something you use best sample of product you have. And if Gimble is the best bards have to offer... Do I really need to finish this? :smallbiggrin:

Tengu
2008-01-13, 04:04 PM
Think of it. When you advertise something you use best sample of product you have. And if Gimble is the best bards have to offer... Do I really need to finish this? :smallbiggrin:

Under this logic, no wizards look better than Mialee.

Morty
2008-01-13, 04:08 PM
Think of it. When you advertise something you use best sample of product you have. And if Gimble is the best bards have to offer... Do I really need to finish this? :smallbiggrin:

What wizards think is best rarely means what really is best.

Chronicled
2008-01-13, 04:09 PM
Under this logic, no wizards look better than Mialee.

And all sorcerers dress like Hennet.

Ichneumon
2008-01-13, 04:12 PM
And all rogues are sexy female halflings....

horseboy
2008-01-13, 04:12 PM
Under this logic, no wizards look better than Mialee.

Before or after the implants?

Spiryt
2008-01-13, 04:16 PM
Think of it. When you advertise something you use best sample of product you have. And if Gimble is the best bards have to offer... Do I really need to finish this? :smallbiggrin:

The point of RPG game is to play someone who I find cool/whatever. The fact that bard from PHB is some pimp gnome doesn't chance the fact that I can make some cool bard.

http://static.metal-archives.com/images/1/3/9/9/13991_photo.jpg

Hell yeah.

V Yes, while I rather don't find Gimble cool, I agree that he's not particulary silly either.

kamikasei
2008-01-13, 04:19 PM
Think of it. When you advertise something you use best sample of product you have. And if Gimble is the best bards have to offer... Do I really need to finish this? :smallbiggrin:

Possibly I'm violating an unspoken rule of the boards here, but I actually think Gimble is pretty cool.

Chronicled
2008-01-13, 04:45 PM
And all rogues are sexy female halflings....

And sticks in the hair are a druid class feature.

On a side note, how did they ever think that was a cool/good idea?

brian c
2008-01-13, 04:47 PM
No.


Although I would considering playing a "rock band" game where all the PCs are glam-metal bards (also probably the only way my roommate would ever play D&D), and I've thought about playing a limerick bard before.

marjan
2008-01-13, 05:30 PM
Under this logic, no wizards look better than Mialee.

Isn't it sad? But at least she's not Gimble.


What wizards think is best rarely means what really is best.

I agree.


And all sorcerers dress like Hennet.

That's why wizards are better.:smalltongue:

Deepblue706
2008-01-13, 05:54 PM
Are bards cool?


No, because a good chunk of their abilities are entirely dependent upon them giving a musical performance in the heat of battle. D&D may not be about realism, but it shouldn't be about stupid.

Also, I dislike their spell mechanic.

Also, they're ninnies.

Chronicled
2008-01-13, 06:08 PM
That's why wizards are better.:smalltongue:

Not if they look like Mialee... :smallamused:

marjan
2008-01-13, 06:11 PM
Not if they look like Mialee... :smallamused:

Just don't look at her ears, hair... Oh, just PrC out of it.:smallsmile:

Talya
2008-01-13, 06:31 PM
No, because a good chunk of their abilities are entirely dependent upon them giving a musical performance in the heat of battle. D&D may not be about realism, but it shouldn't be about stupid.


Only armies for thousands of years played drums and other music to motivate their troops and demoralize the enemy on the battlefield. Once you add magic to that, it's perfectly reasonable for song to benefit combat.

Furthermore, try taking the music out of a movie and see how exciting it is. (Every movie of note ever made entirely relies on its score for emotion...without them, they are dry and stale.) Using real theme music in a game session adds a lot to the feel of it, especially if the music is appropriate to the setting. Bards give an excuse for that... (starting up Loreena McKennitt, Enya, or similar folk music adds a lot to the mood. Try playing McKennitt's Mystic's Dream during a battle.)

Chronicled
2008-01-13, 06:34 PM
Only armies for thousands of years played drums and other music to motivate their troops and demoralize the enemy on the battlefield. Once you add magic to that, it's perfectly reasonable for song to benefit combat.

And for signalling/communicating, and to keep the army moving at the correct tempo, both of which were very important.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-13, 07:19 PM
Reply in image macro form -

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb177/ClericofPhwarrr/bards.jpg

Yes - she used her violin string to cut someone's throat.

Talya
2008-01-13, 07:23 PM
Reply in image macro form -

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb177/ClericofPhwarrr/bards.jpg

Yes - she used her violin string to cut someone's throat.


Technically, that's a bowstring.

What's that picture from?

Raistlin1040
2008-01-13, 07:25 PM
They are if you name them after rockstars! :smalltongue:

My current list of every bard I've ever played is the following: Gene, Saul (Prefers to be called Slash), John, Paul, Jimi, and Axl.

Next up: George, Richard (Prefers to be called Ringo), Ace, Kurt, and Ozzy.

(Yeah, I like playing bards. Although I've had 2 or 3 not named after anyone)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-13, 07:29 PM
Technically, that's a bowstring.

What's that picture from?

Pah! Technicalities! :smallamused:


I don't know where it's from, though.

Raistlin1040
2008-01-13, 07:32 PM
Isn't there like a generator for making those pictures? (Not the actual pictures, but putting an already existing picture in and adding the words+black outline)

Talya
2008-01-13, 07:35 PM
Isn't there like a generator for making those pictures? (Not the actual pictures, but putting an already existing picture in and adding the words+black outline)

http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/motivator.php

hylian chozo
2008-01-13, 07:51 PM
One of my friends had a bard that used the Clockwork Electric Axe Guitar. He also played eye of the tiger during every battle.
Yes, bards can be cool.

horseboy
2008-01-13, 07:55 PM
Technically, that's a bowstring.

What's that picture from?

Something Ravenloft. That's VanLicstenstien, VanRiecter, Rip Van Winkle, That guy from the guides there behind her. And she does have something of a gypsy feel going. I just can't remember which one.

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-13, 08:38 PM
It's hard, but possible. They suffer from the same problems as Gnomes, and Halflings.

The bard might be able to inspire irrational loyalty and fear, such that people are willing to die for them. Or convinces enemies to kill themselves. Try and pull off the whole magnificent bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard).

The fact is, it's very hard to make playing a lute bad ass. Even if the lute is shaped like a skull and flames are painted on it, it's still not likely to be very threatening.

They need some more badass powers. Like being able to learn disturbing songs that undermine reality. That fop might not look like much of a threat, but if he starts playing that violin and suddenly the walls grow teeth and you start to suspect the geometry of the room is a bit off? Might be a bit of a worry that bard.

Or, use that one drum rhythm that sprays everything with acid. And fire. And lawyers. That are also Ninjas. Okay I got a bit carried away here, but you get the basic idea.

horseboy
2008-01-13, 09:18 PM
It's hard, but possible. They suffer from the same problems as Gnomes, and Halflings.

The fact is, it's very hard to make playing a lute bad ass. Even if the lute is shaped like a skull and flames are painted on it, it's still not likely to be very threatening.

They need some more badass powers. Like being able to learn disturbing songs that undermine reality. That fop might not look like much of a threat, but if he starts playing that violin and suddenly the walls grow teeth and you start to suspect the geometry of the room is a bit off? Might be a bit of a worry that bard.

Or, use that one drum rhythm that sprays everything with acid. And fire. And lawyers. That are also Ninjas. Okay I got a bit carried away here, but you get the basic idea.

LOL! Give them a save or suck Brown Note power.

Yeah, yeah, Mythbusters. It's D&D, why would that have to make any more sense than the rest of it?

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2008-01-13, 09:48 PM
A: Ian Hunter would be a bard were he a D&D character.
B: Ian Hunter is the coolest guy ever.
C: Yes.

Ozymandias
2008-01-13, 09:57 PM
A: Ian Hunter would be a bard were he a D&D character.
B: Ian Hunter is the coolest guy ever.
C: Yes.

Syllogism! (were I more competent I'd have it in the same manner as the Bif! Pow! and Barf! tags, but alas)


Reply in image macro form -

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb177/ClericofPhwarrr/bards.jpg

Yes - she used her violin string to cut someone's throat.

That would be better if it were this (http://whatigotsofar.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/elkabong.jpg) picture.

holywhippet
2008-01-13, 11:29 PM
The fact is, it's very hard to make playing a lute bad ass. Even if the lute is shaped like a skull and flames are painted on it, it's still not likely to be very threatening.


It's possible to be scary using a flute as I understand it. The spartans did exactly that (the real ones, not the imposters in 300). Wheras most of their enemies tended to charge into battle pounding on drums, the spartans would walk into battle accompanied by the sound of flutes. This sound and attitude tended to unnerve their opponents.

Darkxarth
2008-01-13, 11:42 PM
Bards are cool.

They're not the best class to play, still my favorite though.

By comparison, Monks are not cool. This doesn't have anything to do with their poor playability, but more with the lack of fun I have role-playing them.

Of course, there's a good chance this is all personal bias being that Bards are my favorite core class and Monks are my least favorite.

Talya
2008-01-13, 11:45 PM
I like your sig, Darkxarth. I need more people to quote me when I say stuff like that so I can remember it.

horseboy
2008-01-13, 11:45 PM
A: Ian Hunter would be a bard were he a D&D character.
B: Ian Hunter is the coolest guy ever.
C: Yes.

If I knew who the Hell that was, that might mean something.

Chronicled
2008-01-13, 11:46 PM
Pah! Technicalities! :smallamused:


I don't know where it's from, though.

From my photobucket :smalltongue:.

Serenity
2008-01-14, 12:01 AM
Yes.

Are they hulking badasses who smash through everything, or wizened arcane masters scorching the landscape with a wave of their hands? No. They're not that kind of cool. They're subtler than that.

Bards are consummate con men. They can inspire, fascinate, and generally manipulate the minds of the weak willed. If you want to ferret out information or convince someone to see your side of things, a bard is an invaluable asset.

And as for magical music...it makes perfect sense to me. It's worth noting that Middle Earth, unarguably one of if not the most influential fantasy world of all time, was sung into existence. That's right, your bard may very well be tapping into the underpinning of reality itself for his magic.

skywalker
2008-01-14, 12:06 AM
It's possible to be scary using a flute as I understand it. The spartans did exactly that (the real ones, not the imposters in 300). Wheras most of their enemies tended to charge into battle pounding on drums, the spartans would walk into battle accompanied by the sound of flutes. This sound and attitude tended to unnerve their opponents.

Source please! This awesome fact needs a source behind it.

In my opinion, bards can very, very rarely be cool.

But only rarely.

Talya
2008-01-14, 12:15 AM
It's worth noting that Middle Earth, unarguably one of if not the most influential fantasy world of all time, was sung into existence. That's right, your bard may very well be tapping into the underpinning of reality itself for his magic.

Words of Creation, anyone? ;)

Eru Illuvatar's music could not be undone. Melkor and Sauron's attempts at dischord were all part of His symphonic plan.

Darkxarth
2008-01-14, 12:18 AM
I like your sig, Darkxarth. I need more people to quote me when I say stuff like that so I can remember it.

:smallbiggrin:

Glad to be of service, it was a fantastic statement and I support it whole-heartedly. Also glad to see you're s Bard-supporter. :smallwink:

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 12:52 AM
Only armies for thousands of years played drums and other music to motivate their troops and demoralize the enemy on the battlefield. Once you add magic to that, it's perfectly reasonable for song to benefit combat.

Except D&D isn't about armies - it's about 4 or 5 people running around and stabbing things. I'd rather have my fifth man fighting. Full-scale warfare? Okay, that's another story.

The concept of "magical music" offends me, though.



Furthermore, try taking the music out of a movie and see how exciting it is. (Every movie of note ever made entirely relies on its score for emotion...without them, they are dry and stale.) Using real theme music in a game session adds a lot to the feel of it, especially if the music is appropriate to the setting. Bards give an excuse for that... (starting up Loreena McKennitt, Enya, or similar folk music adds a lot to the mood. Try playing McKennitt's Mystic's Dream during a battle.)


Sorry, I uh...don't like that idea.

Akisa
2008-01-14, 01:28 AM
Who says their inspire courage has to be music? You can argue inspire courage could use perform: oratory or some other verbal form that's not singing.

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-14, 01:28 AM
By comparison, Monks are not cool. This doesn't have anything to do with their poor playability, but more with the lack of fun I have role-playing them.

See, I think I'd have a much easier time making a cool Monk than a cool Bard. The martial artist archetype has so many different variations. It's not only Shaolin Monks, but even if it was, you could still manage a fair amount there. I suspect that you could probably manage any personality type. Especially if you free up alignment restrictions which lets be honest is a good idea to begin with.


But then, I watch lots of Anime, and before then I was into Kung Fu movies :P

skywalker
2008-01-14, 02:01 AM
See, I think I'd have a much easier time making a cool Monk than a cool Bard. The martial artist archetype has so many different variations. It's not only Shaolin Monks, but even if it was, you could still manage a fair amount there. I suspect that you could probably manage any personality type. Especially if you free up alignment restrictions which lets be honest is a good idea to begin with.


But then, I watch lots of Anime, and before then I was into Kung Fu movies :P

Monks would be cool if more enemies/monsters were in the humanoid mold. As it stands, monks are really, really good at killing humanoids, but they suck against most other things. I think it would be cool to give monks something like Wing Chun, where they can get in your square without grappling you, and hit you from really close up, where you have a big problem defending and attacking.

But as it stands, the unarmed Asian combat styles meant to be the purview of the monk will probably never translate into D&D. In D&D, you get a 5ft square all to yourself. This never happens for more than an instant in real unarmed fighting, so D&D will probably never be able to truly represent it.

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 02:17 AM
Who says their inspire courage has to be music? You can argue inspire courage could use perform: oratory or some other verbal form that's not singing.

Regardless, it's taking time to concentrate on something that isn't fighting to magically inspire everyone else to do better. I think the idea is silly, however you wanna go by it. An amazing speech before a battle? Okay - I don't have a problem with Henry V. Tho, I'm fairly sure he didn't give a speech during a fight...

Wordmiser
2008-01-14, 02:59 AM
Regardless, it's taking time to concentrate on something that isn't fighting to magically inspire everyone else to do better. I think the idea is silly, however you wanna go by it. An amazing speech before a battle? Okay - I don't have a problem with Henry V. Tho, I'm fairly sure he didn't give a speech during a fight...Silly Bards, always buffing and debuffing the baddies rather than dealingg damage. I mean... how stupid is that?

Townopolis
2008-01-14, 05:27 AM
I've known plenty of bards who waded into battle, sword swinging, and hacked down many a foe. They also happened to be singing battle chants while doing so. There's nothing that says a bard can't fight and sing at the same time, in fact, I think it specifically says they can.

Those bards who didn't wade into battle, generally did so for the same reason most wizards don't wade into battle, they sucked at melee. Instead they chose to alter everyone's perceptions of reality to make his or her team win, they created support magic through their songs.

And seriously, if a tongue twister and some hand signals can alter reality, so can an epic sung to invoke the courage and might of a long gone but great hero's spirit.

Bards aren't minstrels, they aren't entertainers, and they aren't people with really pretty voices. They're arcane spellcasters.

Ossian
2008-01-14, 05:58 AM
Bards are cool. Taken as a single class they are a good start and give you fun and versatility if your scenario is not a "hack 'n slash" or a "wade through the gore" one. That is another way of saying that just like you don't bring a knife to a gunfight you should not send a low level bard to fight on the fields of Anfauglith.

This said, they have a decent ability range, many skill points, can use good weapons (and if elves, even more weapons without taking extra feats). Eventually they get spells, they speak languages, they know customs, traditions, places and people, laws and rules and cultures. By my experience, if there is one class that would survive real adventuring this is the bard. D&D is just an endless "Manpower" agency where you can roam thousands of miles and the only thing that changes is food and language but still every body understands "Common" and despite the vast cultural differences and the social textures largely unknown if you move more than a dozen miles from your village, it's still just a bunch of "Merchants who want you to clean a dungeon for them".
Lasses are scantily dressed in a different way (even in the frozy norths) and you can just be a dumbass swordplayer and still move from nation to nation without too much hassle, a bit like "kane in kungfu. Walking the Earth, meeting people, getting into adventures" ((C) J.Winnifeld)

Moreover, bards are EXCELLENT to bard-ize your character. Bard-ize as in giving him or her flavor, spice, depth. Whenever your character has started as a Circus performer, as an actor in a small itinerant company on a pageant, as a street artist, ther you must have your first level as a bard.

If he is a bit older, and has spent some time being a warrior and a diplomat, a repersentative of his nation's identity and of his clansmen values, that is, you START your character as a midlevel multiclass, you can perfectly represent the diversity of the situations you will have managed until the beginning of your campaign as a multiclass ---/Bard.

Ossian and most of the Fianna Brotherhood were supposed to "take a level in bard". Even if they were the most kickass warrior of Old Eirenahn, protecting the Irish soil from the scum of the Universe, they were also supposed to know poems and genealogies by heart, to be good performers and to be able to run and tumble just as much as they were supposed to get 9 spears thrown at them while standing waist deep in a pit with but a shield to block them. This is not stuff you can do if you take only levels in melee classes.

Most of the Noldor elves were bards of some kind, some just core class and some others multiclass, but they all had to be able to master the song of creation to various degrees to live a fulfilling life.

Yes, perhaps the average commoner from Ost In Edhil, if pitted against a savage dunlending of the day, would have his arms bitten off and used as clubs on his head, but still...

Now, the thing of getting into a dungeon crawling with monsters and SING is just plain silly. It gets silly because IF you can get a bonus, you MUST get it. Now, this is wrong. Good taste dictates whether it is the moment to Inspire Courage and Greatness or not. At the eve of a battle, or moments before storming the Archivillains chamber for the climactic battle, yes.

In the middle of a fray with orcs, so no.

Ossian :smallsmile:

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-14, 06:30 AM
Monks would be cool if more enemies/monsters were in the humanoid mold. As it stands, monks are really, really good at killing humanoids, but they suck against most other things. I think it would be cool to give monks something like Wing Chun, where they can get in your square without grappling you, and hit you from really close up, where you have a big problem defending and attacking.

But as it stands, the unarmed Asian combat styles meant to be the purview of the monk will probably never translate into D&D. In D&D, you get a 5ft square all to yourself. This never happens for more than an instant in real unarmed fighting, so D&D will probably never be able to truly represent it.

I said I could make a Monk cool. Not make one effective :P

Tormsskull
2008-01-14, 07:05 AM
Bards most definitely can be cool. They aren't the type of class you take for raw power though, they do much better in a heavy-RP campaign than in a hack and slash campaign.

A while back one of my friends joined our D&D group and he said he wanted to play a support type character, so I pointed him towards the bard. He ended up telling jokes as his perform ability. It was hilarious in the middle of combat to have him yelling out stuff at the enemies to inspire his allies. Laughs were had by all.

Tengu
2008-01-14, 10:17 AM
By the way, Bards (or rather, Troubadours) are really cool in Earthdawn - after all, they are the lorekeepers in a world where the legend surrounding a hero is an important part of his power. Also, remember all the stuff legendary bards do in stories? In Earthdawn they can do it too.

Ah, but really, it's hard to find an uncool Discipline in Earthdawn. Well, maybe Thieves, because their world view is really, really annoying. Spy Thieves are cool though.

Telonius
2008-01-14, 10:53 AM
Within Tolkien's works, we have the following kickass characters who display some forms of magical music:
Melian
Beren
Luthien
Finrod Felagund
Maglor

It should be noted that Tolkien's world was created out of music, so it might be considered to have a pro-Bard slant.

In other tales, musicians in general aren't as well represented. Sir Robin's minstrels come to mind as Exhibit A. In Lloyd Alexander's stories, we have Fflewder Fflam, who is as annoying as he is unpronounceable. However, we also have several examples in Piers Anthony's "Incarnations of Immortality" series, of characters seeking the "Llano." (What is it about bards and doubled-up letters?)

Adumbration
2008-01-14, 11:12 AM
Within Tolkien's works, we have the following kickass characters who display some forms of magical music:
Melian
Beren
Luthien
Finrod Felagund
Maglor


Don't for Bard.

I know, I know, a bad pun. Couldn't resist. :smalltongue:

Ossian
2008-01-14, 11:51 AM
And Merlin the wizard, who was probably a high level bard with a dip in druid.

I mean, THE wizardest wizard ever is a bard. This class ought to be cool.

PS
The Bard pun mad me and the whole Dale rotfl:smallcool:

valadil
2008-01-14, 12:06 PM
Bards are cool when given a chance to shine. I've had nothing but good experience with them, but I've made sure to only use them in the right kind of campaign where a single character's social ingenuity can alter the course of the game. Railroady games where characters are just going along for a ride are not conducive to bards in my not so humble opinion.

It should be noted that bards are seen as suboptimal, because you can't optimize them the same way you would another class. Min maxing just doesn't work when your speciality is being a jack of all trades. I've seen some bards try to ditch music and max out magic. The end result is something that should have been a sorc or wizard with spell focus enchantment. Other battle bards try for combat and just end up as wimpy fighters. A good bard has to accept that at best he'll be 90% as capable as the casters, 90% as capable as the healers, and 90% as capable as the fighters (well probably not 90, but you get the idea), and what role that bard chooses to support determines how effective a bard is. Basically the bard needs to be cowbell. When the group has a fever and the prescription is more cowbell, the bard needs to bring the cowbell. He needs to buff ahead of time, heal when people go down so nobody dies when the cleric starts triaging, cast spells when possible, and defend himself when attacked.

AdversusVeritas
2008-01-14, 12:47 PM
They've always been my favorite core class once I realized that the whole "jack of all trades master of none" stereotype was BS. Bards may be mediocre when it comes to magic and combat, but no core class is better for a social character IMO. No core class gets more mileage out of charisma.

Hyrael
2008-01-14, 01:54 PM
Yes, bards are cool. because bards always, ALWAYS, have something to do. at no point will a bard ever, ever, justifiably say "I have no usefull action to take." they can heal (all right, they can stop someone from dieing), they can fight (well, they can flank, and they can fight if they buff themselves.), and they can cast fairly well, and they can sneak.

Bards are Badass, scrappy heroes that cant be stopped by any obstacle short of a forcecage, and even then, they can persuade the BBEG's head lackey to dispell it.

Indiana Jones, while he never sang, had exactly the kind of badassery that a bard has: he's okay at everything.

horseboy
2008-01-14, 02:13 PM
By the way, Bards (or rather, Troubadours) are really cool in Earthdawn - after all, they are the lorekeepers in a world where the legend surrounding a hero is an important part of his power. Also, remember all the stuff legendary bards do in stories? In Earthdawn they can do it too.

Ah, but really, it's hard to find an uncool Discipline in Earthdawn. Well, maybe Thieves, because their world view is really, really annoying. Spy Thieves are cool though.

My least favorite is the wizard. Odd given how much I like the other four caster classes.
Of course, the Map maker variant of troubadour, now that's useful. No they don't sing, they actually know where we are and how to get where we're going. There's a useful "bard" idea. Well, that and some days even the most grizzled of us just want to be the comedic relief.



Indiana Jones, while he never sang, had exactly the kind of badassery that a bard has: he's okay at everything.

I see him more as a rogue, with a lot of different knowledge: locals.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-14, 03:02 PM
I've played bards, I like bards. My favorite bard was a Brd/ Bbn who eventually went into a PrC created by the GM, sort of a Skald. he was a spiked chain trip specialist whose specialty was keeping people on the floor. He was great fun, raised by wolves, and quirky as he wore the pelt of his adoptive father as a cloak, and would talk to it to gain insight into problems the party was facing.

Yup, the fun in bards is how you play them.

By the by, Virtuoso is the PrC for bards that want more varied uses from their bardic music.

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 04:16 PM
Silly Bards, always buffing and debuffing the baddies rather than dealingg damage. I mean... how stupid is that?

My problem is with the mere aesthetics - note, that I didn't proceed to say "wizards are stupid because they can't sword things". They can buff and debuff, but it's not doing in a way that I find to be inherently silly. I see generic magic as mystical. I see playing a fiddle in a magical way to rouse your allies in the midst of a fight as idiotic. I'm not saying it's not useful within context of the game - I'm saying it shouldn't be.

Edit: Of course, this is not intended to insult those who think otherwise, so before you say it - don't think I'm calling anyone here an idiot.

Morty
2008-01-14, 04:20 PM
My problem is with the mere aesthetics - note, that I didn't proceed to say "wizards are stupid because they can't sword things". They can buff and debuff, but it's not doing something that I find to be inherently silly. I see generic magic as mystical. I see playing a fiddle in a magical way to rouse your allies in the midst of a fight as idiotic. I'm not saying it's not useful within context of the game - I'm saying it shouldn't be.

How is a bard doing magic by singing any more silly than wizard doing magic by shouting funny words and waving hands?

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 04:27 PM
How is a bard doing magic by singing any more silly than wizard doing magic by shouting funny words and waving hands?

Aesthetics. I dislike the taste of it. I don't believe a Bard should sing a song and suddenly make everyone around them feel like heroes. I'd rather not concentrate on the lyrics of a song of courage, and more on a fight.

Singing as opposed to Speaking/Waving Hands seems a little more complicated as well. I'd imagine it'd be more distracting for not only the person performing, but for the party he's aiding as well! I could tune out gibberish coming from the Wizard (I tune people out all the time :smallbiggrin: ), but I can't tune out the Bard strumming "Oh Susannah!" - or I suppose, as it might be said in OoTS it'd more like "Fight, fight, fight fight, the stupid monsters with bravery!" Maybe my perspective is skewed because every bard player I've had was essentially Elan (I can only think of one exception, currently).

My opinion is merely than music should not be magical, unless it is part of a spell that a Wizard can learn and research.

I don't hate all Bardic Music, however - I think Fascinate is an okay ability. However, I see abilities like Inspire Courage as not only flavorless, but plain silly, because it's exclusive to a guy with a "magical" instrument of some kind, which just is because yes.

Spiryt
2008-01-14, 04:40 PM
My opinion is merely than music should not be magical, unless it is part of a spell that a Wizard can learn and research.


Well certainly even in our plain world music is somewhat magical. And waving hands around - definetly not. So why music in D&D shouldn't be magical?

Seriously, Magic in music is definetly more interesting and convincing than spells than you "research".

And "Fight, fight fight bravery" is lame. But something as Blind Guardian's "Bard's Song" is certainly inspiring. And fits the theme nicely.

Felius
2008-01-14, 04:45 PM
I'm still going to pick up a human bard from a barbarian village. Give him the highest charisma, strength and constitution I can get, give him the kind of drums the kodo beasts that orcs mounts on Warcraft 3 have, just that is himself who carries it. Then proceed to beat the hell out of my enemies with the drum sticks.

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 04:53 PM
Well certainly even in our plain world music is somewhat magical. And waving hands around - definetly not. So why music in D&D shouldn't be magical?

Well, I disagree with plain music being magical. Music can indeed have neurological effects on humans, and can provide inspiration - I'm not debating that. However, I greatly dislike the idea of a Fighter swinging away at a Troll while his Bard friend stands close behind him, strumming on his lute so that he fights better. This mechanic does not support my imagination, as many Fighters, in my mind, would consider it annoying and distracting. Also, I'm trying to imagine it like a movie, as well - If I saw a fantasy film where the entire musical score was actively being played by the Bard in the story, I'd just walk out.



Seriously, Magic in music is definetly more interesting and convincing than spells than you "research".

I prefer the idea of spells coming from ancient forgotten tomes, etc. I can't say I like D&D Wizards too much, but they come closer to emulating what I'm interested in than Bards.



And "Fight, fight fight bravery" is lame. But something as Blind Guardian's "Bard's Song" is certainly inspiring. And fits the theme nicely.

You're right, that was a bit unfair. I don't know Blind Guardian's "Bard's Song", but if I could understand the lyrics, I would yell "put a sock in it", regardless.

The Zulu were known for war-chants. Tribesmen around the world have used drums, horns, beat their shields, played with an enemies psyche with music in numerous ways. But I do not believe there should be a "better version" of it through being "magically good" at an instrument. A spell to make figment sounds might be called for, but playing a flute should not inherently make me courageous and fight better, if I hear it. That should depend on the subject hearing the music.

hobbitguy1420
2008-01-14, 04:53 PM
Joranna felt the orc's shortsword skip off of her helmet, nearly stunning her. Her sword felt as though it weighed thousands of pounds. There were too many of the enemy. Her small band was done for.

Then, over the sound of battle came a ringing voice, strong and sure. Jorrana blinked as she recognized the opening strains of The Ballad of Durnhelm. Despite the dire circumstances, she felt her spirit stirring at the familiar tune. Things weren't as bad as all that, she supposed. After all, Durnhelm hadn't given up when he faced the Five Thousand, and he had been alone!

All of this took place in the span of less than a second. Letting out a ferocious battle-cry, Joranna thrust her greatsword into the nearest orc.

No bard worth his lute would sing "Fight, fight, fight the stinking ogre," Elan notwithstanding. Bards are storehouses of song and story, and the bard would choose a song that was appropriate to the situation. An excerpt from the Jailbreak scene of the opera "Thulma the Sly" might make the Rogue chuckle (and remind him of that great lockpicking trick he's been wanting to try). The sultry tones of "Ten Thousand Nights with Klia" might be just the thing to get all the men in that bar eating out of the Bard's shapely fingers. It's not the music itself that's granting the bonuses, it's the emotions that the music stirs. The magic just helps things along.

That's what a Bard's strength is, I think - they're the master of saying the right thing. Whether the right thing happens to be just the compliment needed to sneak past the guardpost, or the strange melody that causes dancing lights to burst into the air.

As for music not being magical, that's probably just a matter of personal taste. There are tons of examples of magical music in literature and myth; mankind has considered music to be magical ever since he realized that by humming a tune and beating out a rhythm he could make others feel happy or sad - this is why music has been a part of religious worship for millenia.

That said, I would prefer it if bards held a bit more of the "wise loremasters" image, rather than just being wandering entertainers. They're the guardians of secret wisdom, passed down from bard to bard since times before time. That's just a matter of preference, though.

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 04:59 PM
I'm still going to pick up a human bard from a barbarian village. Give him the highest charisma, strength and constitution I can get, give him the kind of drums the kodo beasts that orcs mounts on Warcraft 3 have, just that is himself who carries it. Then proceed to beat the hell out of my enemies with the drum sticks.

That'd probably be inefficient.

tbarrie
2008-01-14, 04:59 PM
Within Tolkien's works, we have the following kickass characters who display some forms of magical music:
Melian
Beren
Luthien
Finrod Felagund
Maglor


Sauron.


My problem is with the mere aesthetics - note, that I didn't proceed to say "wizards are stupid because they can't sword things". They can buff and debuff, but it's not doing in a way that I find to be inherently silly. I see generic magic as mystical. I see playing a fiddle in a magical way to rouse your allies in the midst of a fight as idiotic. I'm not saying it's not useful within context of the game - I'm saying it shouldn't be.

Yes, but why is singing to produce magical effects any sillier than waving your arms around and shouting nonsense words? (And possibly flinging bat guano at your opponents, but really, wizardry is inherently silly enough even if you don't bring material components in.) Objectively, they seem comparable: they're both completely ridiculous in real-world terms, but they're both also exactly the sort of thing you have to shrug your shoulders at and accept if you're going to suspend disbelief in the fantasy genre.

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 05:07 PM
Joranna felt the orc's shortsword skip off of her helmet, nearly stunning her. Her sword felt as though it weighed thousands of pounds. There were too many of the enemy. Her small band was done for.

Then, over the sound of battle came a ringing voice, strong and sure. Jorrana blinked as she recognized the opening strains of The Ballad of Durnhelm. Despite the dire circumstances, she felt her spirit stirring at the familiar tune. Things weren't as bad as all that, she supposed. After all, Durnhelm hadn't given up when he faced the Five Thousand, and he had been alone!

All of this took place in the span of less than a second. Letting out a ferocious battle-cry, Joranna thrust her greatsword into the nearest orc.

That shouldn't inspire everyone. It shouldn't make much of a difference anyway. Something rousing should, at best, give a +1 bonus to attacks, and nothing else. Of course, being overly cinematic, D&D makes it profoundly better than that. I guess, my argument is a lost cause, since it was birthed from concepts that just aren't D&D.



No bard worth his lute would sing "Fight, fight, fight the stinking ogre," Elan notwithstanding. Bards are storehouses of song and story, and the bard would choose a song that was appropriate to the situation. An excerpt from the Jailbreak scene of the opera "Thulma the Sly" might make the Rogue chuckle (and remind him of that great lockpicking trick he's been wanting to try). The sultry tones of "Ten Thousand Nights with Klia" might be just the thing to get all the men in that bar eating out of the Bard's shapely fingers. It's not the music itself that's granting the bonuses, it's the emotions that the music stirs. The magic just helps things along.

Right, but it can only stir so much emotion. And, it's not static effect you slap to everyone. Different subjects might not receive a boon at all.



That's what a Bard's strength is, I think - they're the master of saying the right thing. Whether the right thing happens to be just the compliment needed to sneak past the guardpost, or the strange melody that causes dancing lights to burst into the air.

I think I might feel better if the magic system was unified, and music could be a substitute for normal vocal components.



As for music not being magical, that's probably just a matter of personal taste. There are tons of examples of magical music in literature and myth; mankind has considered music to be magical ever since he realized that by humming a tune and beating out a rhythm he could make others feel happy or sad - this is why music has been a part of religious worship for millenia.

Yeah, I should note - I hate tons of ancient religions and myths. Especially ones with magical music. And, while I recognize music has effects on people, I don't agree it should hold so much sway.

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 05:19 PM
Yes, but why is singing to produce magical effects any sillier than waving your arms around and shouting nonsense words? (And possibly flinging bat guano at your opponents, but really, wizardry is inherently silly enough even if you don't bring material components in.) Objectively, they seem comparable: they're both completely ridiculous in real-world terms, but they're both also exactly the sort of thing you have to shrug your shoulders at and accept if you're going to suspend disbelief in the fantasy genre.

Yes, it's all silly.

When I think of Wizardry, I think of some deep, dark secrets that do a lot of stuff that cannot be fully comprehended. Maybe it's commanding ancient spirits to do your bidding - I don't know, and not-knowing makes it mystical.

When I think of Bardic Music, I think of something highly subjective giving allies static bonuses when such an act could give varied responses. Also, is it magical? Is it just music? There's a conflict of concepts here that make things difficult for me to appreciate. If it's all just magic, I think Wizards should be able to learn it, somehow, as part of their studies. If it's just music, then it shouldn't be so amazing - because music exists in our world, and music isn't that great here. Would you compare Magic to just talking? I wouldn't, because there's that whole thing about deep, dark secrets, again. It involves strictly unknown principles, while Bardic Music invokes emotion through a medium that exists before we begin to experience games such as D&D, and thus leaves an unexplained factor - why is it better than normal music? Because it's a Bard, duh, is an unacceptable answer. If it's also "deep, dark secrets", such as a Wizard's magic, then I begin to wonder how many "deep, dark secrets" are in the damned world. Wizards, to me, hold seniority over Bards, and are far more important, and thusly deserve any reserved seating for being mystical and secretive with their magical abilities, etc. Are Bards really, really good at their instruments? Is music inherently magical, but only they have untapped its true power? Is it just normal Wizard magic, but they just sing the vocal components? I believe there are too many abstract terms involved to correctly interpret anything - it's just that we're supposed to accept Bards can sing magic songs and they help people hit things better, and that is plainly something I cannot do.

Felius
2008-01-14, 05:38 PM
That'd probably be inefficient.
Yes, it just needs to be on right game. I wouldn't put it to play with a game where everyone is efficient. But in the low power game where the characters are all a little underpowered (let's say a half-orc bard, a sword and board halfling fighter, a band-aid cleric, etc.) it would probably fit pretty well.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-14, 05:38 PM
Orpheus weeps for those attacking bards as useless and nonsensical in this thread.

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 05:42 PM
Yes, it just needs to be on right game. I wouldn't put it to play with a game where everyone is efficient. But in the low power game where the characters are all a little underpowered (let's say a half-orc bard, a sword and board halfling fighter, a band-aid cleric, etc.) it would probably fit pretty well.

No, I meant drum sticks for weapons. They'll break.

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 05:43 PM
Orpheus weeps for those attacking bards as useless and nonsensical in this thread.

Orpheus is a ninny.

Trog
2008-01-14, 05:47 PM
I have a bard named Gyre. He's a cousin of Gimble's. I think he's pretty cool, though not in a Powergaming kind of way, so much as a "Well there's a neat character" way.

Awesome name for a gnome. :smallbiggrin: I'd snatch it if they weren't going away in 4.0. Or... well... going to the monster manual. There if you're named Gyre they beat you up I'd imagine. :smalltongue:

Felius
2008-01-14, 05:47 PM
No, I meant drum sticks for weapons. They'll break.

Nah, it's not drum sticks like the usual ones we have. Imagine a drum stick made for a guy with 18 in strength to use with all his force at the drum. It's pretty much a club or even a mace.

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 05:50 PM
Nah, it's not drum sticks like the usual ones we have. Imagine a drum stick made for a guy with 18 in strength to use with all his force at the drum. It's pretty much a club or even a mace.

If it were an effective weapon, then I doubt it'd be a precise tool with which one can make music. It would probably break the drum.

Spiryt
2008-01-14, 06:02 PM
Well, the truth is out there :smallwink:

Actually I don't think that such drumstick would necesarilly break the drum - yeah it could do it but drummer don't have to bash it with all power.

But on the other side drumstick can indeed have club stats at best. It's drumstick not a weapon. Mace is out of question.

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 06:08 PM
Well, the truth is out there :smallwink:

Actually I don't think that such drumstick would necesarilly break the drum - yeah it could do it but drummer don't have to bash it with all power.

But on the other side drumstick can indeed have club stats at best. It's drumstick not a weapon. Mace is out of question.

Well, a drummer should indeed use little of his might when hitting a drum - but, I can't imagine clubbing a drum even lightly is going to add years to its life, either.

Ossian
2008-01-14, 06:17 PM
I have a problem too with "jum, jump jump the chasm!" and the like. Striking chords on a lute while the orcs are pelting your band with spears and arrows sounds silly. Besides, I really liked the narrative example posted on page 3 (Dernhelm ballad IIRC), but tha makes me think that even with a rpertoire of 4000 songs, with all the fight the PCs get into it will very soon become repetitive. So, this voice has got to have an inherent aracne power, and not just a placebo effect.

I do prefere to use song of courage and similar in a more "tolkienesque" way. That is to say, you can be a bard and have no levels in BARD, just like miko was a Samurai and had no levels in that class. Or, you can have levels in BARD and choose whether your PC is a professional Bard or not.

I see the song of [magical buff effect] as a "song of power", an Arcane ability IN ADDITION to the spell list the bard has. BEttle ensues, and the Bard (class) who has mastery over the very thread of life and reality (which might have well been sung into existence) chants a few words (pretty much like a spell) and gets to your heart, right through it, making you surge with rivers of adrenaline.

O.

marjan
2008-01-14, 06:40 PM
In the defense of bards: Eberron was bard. And he really p***ed-of Khyber. One of rare bards I respect.

Felius
2008-01-14, 06:54 PM
Well, the truth is out there :smallwink:

Actually I don't think that such drumstick would necesarilly break the drum - yeah it could do it but drummer don't have to bash it with all power.

But on the other side drumstick can indeed have club stats at best. It's drumstick not a weapon. Mace is out of question.

It's not really meant to make sense. Just to be big and bad. I could handwave the drums not breaking saying they're made of Iron Wood and some fierce beast leather. D&D have much worse things.

Tengu
2008-01-14, 07:39 PM
Another reason bards are very useful - because there's someone who needs to play the party's powergamer's leitmotif when he is dishing out the pain! Double points if both of those people are the same character.


My least favorite is the wizard. Odd given how much I like the other four caster classes.

Other four? I thought there were 4 casting Disciplines in total - Wizards, Nethermancers, Illusionists and Elementalists...

Akisa
2008-01-14, 07:51 PM
Bard's inspire could be use to give tactical advise of the situation, rather then using some musical instrument.

mikeejimbo
2008-01-14, 08:22 PM
The concept of "magical music" offends me, though.


It offends you? I could see disagreeing with it, but I don't see how it's offensive.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-14, 11:21 PM
I'll point out that this is somewhere else that 3e radically changed from 2e, and people now find it silly. It took 3 rounds (3 minutes, in core 2e; 1e was 2 rounds) of poetics to inspire the troops, and it lasted for 1 round per level. That meant you had to sing a whole song, or give a whole speech, and people would be inspired.

Compare that to 3e, where in less than 6 seconds a bard can sing a snatch of song or strum his guitar and people are inspired. You get off a power chord... and your barbarian hits harder.

3e sped things up, and thereby attenuated the logic.

SilentNight
2008-01-14, 11:34 PM
I don't understand what the problem is with magical and inspiring music. As a jazz musician I find that nothing pumps me up more than playing with a big band. While I'll admit that bards are certaintly not the best class the Dirgesinger from LM does have a degree of badassness and potential.

Duke Malagigi
2008-01-14, 11:50 PM
Orpheus weeps for those attacking bards as useless and nonsensical in this thread.

While Bricru is using his musical and social prowess to attempt to trick us all into killing one another for mocking his fellow bards. That and he wants our food, booze (if anyone here drinks alcohol) and money. Vicsious little bastard of a bard.

BardicDuelist
2008-01-15, 12:11 AM
Yes, bards are cool. Cyrano was cool, and who can read the Pyridian Chronicles and not say that the order of bards (and even Fflam) were not pretty friggin' sweet?

You see, you can play a good bard. You don't have to base it on established characters either. Infact, I think that bard is the only class that makes perfect sense to wander around with no other motivation. That was one fo the most common ways for minstrels to make their living. As far as the celitc/gaelic bard goes, give it a nature motif (variant class in SRD if you have to), or go Fochluchan Lyrist.

In games that aren't combat heavy, my group gets mad if I'm not playing a bard. In games that are, they miss my large amounts of party buffs. What's wonderful about this is that these tatics are pretty open-ended RP wise, so they don't limit your character choices. You can play a cowardly but charismatic bard who hates fights and tries to convince his allies that they are such great heros they can defeat the monster without his help (the buffs, whcih actually help, of course), or a wonderful leader who inspires his allies to great heights.

Duke Malagigi
2008-01-15, 12:19 AM
Only armies for thousands of years played drums and other music to motivate their troops and demoralize the enemy on the battlefield. Once you add magic to that, it's perfectly reasonable for song to benefit combat.

Furthermore, try taking the music out of a movie and see how exciting it is. (Every movie of note ever made entirely relies on its score for emotion...without them, they are dry and stale.) Using real theme music in a game session adds a lot to the feel of it, especially if the music is appropriate to the setting. Bards give an excuse for that... (starting up Loreena McKennitt, Enya, or similar folk music adds a lot to the mood. Try playing McKennitt's Mystic's Dream during a battle.)

For once I agree with you Talya. I still think that sorcerers are mostly a stupid idea.

Corlis
2008-01-15, 12:23 AM
(As I typed this, I realized that it's really just about the Bardic song ability than the Bard class as a whole. But then, I like the rest of the class, so it's all good)

I think part of the problem is that what bards do with their song isn't really familiar to players from other sources. Now, we've all seen a kung fu movie where the fists fly fast and furious, so we can easily imagine Monks. We've all seen movies where swordsmen enduring massive punishment and come roaring back to slice their opponents in two, so we can easily imagine Fighters. We've all seen movies and books where the frail-looking guy in a robe is surrounded by brutes, but mutters a few words and unleashes firey arcane death on them all, so we can easily imagine Wizards and Sorcerors. But what movies and books have people whose regular contribution to their party involves singing and or chanting? Even in the cases where people do sing to encourage their friends, like in some bits of LotR, you generally see them give a bit of oratory or singing at important points in the story, and then they shut up and wade into melee, which is quite different to how a Bard would likely operate in D&D. So, when we go to the table and see someone roll a crit with their greataxe, we can see him swinging the axe and knocking someone's head off in our mind's eye, because we've seen it many times before. However, when we see someone at the table begin their Bard song, we have a hard time imagining how that might work because we've never really seen it done well before. We think, "So... you start prancing around singing? How could that help?". Now, if we'd seen some good images of people singing to help their comrades in movies and books then we could mentally bring up those experiences and use them to imagine what sorts of cool things the Bard could be doing with his song. But we don't, so as a result we either are left with a giant blank as to what the Bard is doing, or we have to rely on what the player describes himself as doing, which may be nice and entertaining, but might not be as well.

Another difficulty is that the work of the Bardic Song is more indirect than the work of the other classes. The point of most battles in D&D is to kill your enemies. A Barbarian's axe and a Wizard's Fireball are direct causes of death to one's enemies, with the slicing and the burning and so on. But a Bard's song isn't the direct cause anybody's death - unless he's Cacophonix - which limits the visceral enjoyment of their work. Sure, the sing gives a bonus that turns one of the Barbarian's near-misses into a hit, but the Barbarian is still the one doing the hitting and getting the glory. After all, we do hear stories about how we were down to our last HP but put everything into Power Attack, critted, and chopped the Ogre in half, but do we ever hear stories about how we played our instrument, increased our friend's chance's of hitting by +2, and saw him chop the Ogre in half? Now, the Bard does deserve some of the kudos for the kill, but he is unforunately behind the scenes, and as anyone who has spent time behind the scenes knows, you just don't get as much glory as the people most directly involved.

ETA: I should point this out: I don't think you can't make Bards cool, I just think that it's harder to make them cool than it it for other classes.

mikeejimbo
2008-01-15, 01:06 AM
Awesome name for a gnome. :smallbiggrin: I'd snatch it if they weren't going away in 4.0. Or... well... going to the monster manual. There if you're named Gyre they beat you up I'd imagine. :smalltongue:

Heh, I'm glad you think so. The rest of my group hates it. They're glad that gnomes are going away.

In fact, the very reason I decided to play a gnome is because they're going away.

Deepblue706
2008-01-15, 01:36 AM
It offends you? I could see disagreeing with it, but I don't see how it's offensive.

Music, in general, is my archnemesis. I seek to make a world where song does not exist.

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 01:51 AM
Music, in general, is my archnemesis. I seek to make a world where song does not exist.

Do you think maybe this makes you a poor judge of whether bards are cool are not? I mean, if I told you wizards are totally useless and stupid, oh and by the way I have a pathological fear of books...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-15, 01:59 AM
The problem with bards is that the fluff is horrid and the abilities are sub-par. WotC pretty much said "The bard sings and you're tougher, ain't that kewl" and future embellishments to the class are built on that rickety foundation. Meanwhile, the bard has someone who is better than him at everything he does, even if he can do a lot. Yes, he can be cool, but it takes more work to get to the same level of awesome that everyone else starts at.

However, if you want someone with a few levels in bard who is still awesome, watch one-eye the narrator in 300. He's a bard. Most of the other bards, though, suck, and it annoys me because some of them have potential, but they are actively prevented from reaching that by WotC. :smallmad:

horseboy
2008-01-15, 02:02 AM
but I can't tune out the Bard strumming "Oh Susannah!" - or I suppose, as it might be said in OoTS it'd more like "Fight, fight, fight fight, the stupid monsters with bravery!" Maybe my perspective is skewed because every bard player I've had was essentially Elan (I can only think of one exception, currently).
Pfft! I could only dream of running across a bard that was "only" played like Elan.

Talic
2008-01-15, 02:12 AM
The problem with the Bard's PR is that everyone sees them as either effeminate girly men, or the unemployed guy that goes to bars reeking of BO, and telling girls, "I'm in a band."

Bards:
Edgar Allen Poe
Homer
Shakespeare
Bob Dylan
AC/DC
Ozzy
etc...

We have mostly drug abusers, bat eaters, and, mixed in, some of the greatest artistic minds of all time.

EDIT: Counterquestion: Are gamers qualified to qualify on the definition of "cool"?

horseboy
2008-01-15, 02:15 AM
Other four? I thought there were 4 casting Disciplines in total - Wizards, Nethermancers, Illusionists and Elementalists...

Shaman. Been piecing together a Pale One shaman. Really fun idea, having all his fetishes tied to his trispear. They never get enough respect.

horseboy
2008-01-15, 02:17 AM
The problem with the Bard's PR is that everyone sees them as either effeminate girly men, or the unemployed guy that goes to bars reeking of BO, and telling girls, "I'm in a band."

Bards:
Edgar Allen Poe
Homer
Shakespeare
Bob Dylan
AC/DC
Ozzy
etc...

We have mostly drug abusers, bat eaters, and, mixed in, some of the greatest artistic minds of all time.

EDIT: Counterquestion: Are gamers qualified to qualify on the definition of "cool"?

With the possible exception of Shakespeare, (Bard of the Stratford, on Avon) those aren't bards, they're experts.

Talic
2008-01-15, 02:22 AM
With the possible exception of Shakespeare, (Bard of the Stratford, on Avon) those aren't bards, they're experts.

Pshaw. Poets and musicians are the bards of a non-magical world.

horseboy
2008-01-15, 02:25 AM
Pshaw. Poets and musicians are the bards of a non-magical world.

Poe and Homer never had wbl.

Talic
2008-01-15, 02:31 AM
Poe and Homer never had wbl.

Ah, and sadly, real life isn't balanced either. Ask for a rewrite of the core rules.

Deepblue706
2008-01-15, 02:40 AM
Do you think maybe this makes you a poor judge of whether bards are cool are not? I mean, if I told you wizards are totally useless and stupid, oh and by the way I have a pathological fear of books...

That has to be the absurd thing I have ever heard read. Ever.

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 05:44 AM
That has to be the absurd thing I have ever heard read. Ever.

How so? If you yourself hate music then a class which is musically based is going to appall you regardless of how cool it is. Your judgement is biased. Which is fair enough when you're discussing your subjective taste but says nothing about the actual merits of bards.

toysailor
2008-01-15, 06:08 AM
This is a completely subjective question. It all depends on how you define "cool". Some people think summoning Easter bunnies with song and dance is "cool" while others find it completely fruity. If you mean "cool" in a "bad-ass" way, 2nd ed. Dark Sun bards are "cool".

Maybe that's the "cool" part about bards, cos they can be so flexible when it comes to role-playing.

Talic
2008-01-15, 06:19 AM
This is a completely subjective question. It all depends on how you define "cool". Some people think summoning Easter bunnies with song and dance is "cool" while others find it completely fruity. If you mean "cool" in a "bad-ass" way, 2nd ed. Dark Sun bards are "cool".

Maybe that's the "cool" part about bards, cos they can be so flexible when it comes to role-playing.

People who think cool is subjective are out of touch with cool.

Bards seek approval. Thus they cannot be cool. The key part of being cool is not giving a crap.

toysailor
2008-01-15, 06:44 AM
People who think cool is subjective are out of touch with cool.

Bards seek approval. Thus they cannot be cool. The key part of being cool is not giving a crap.

That's a rather weird outlook you have there. The "not-giving-a-crap" attitude only makes someone look arrogant, angsty, emo, pretentious and/or downright rude. Like, "whatever" eh?

I understand that some people find that sort of behavior "cool". So yea, if you think that your definition of "cool" is objective and correct, you're only agreeing with my point that "cool" is subjective since other people (ergo, in this case - me) don't feel the same way.

Wow! How "cool" is that?

lol

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 06:49 AM
Bards seek approval. Thus they cannot be cool. The key part of being cool is not giving a crap.

There's not really any need for a bard to seek approval, any more than that's necessarily the motive of every musician or entertainer in the real world. Some just love the music. Some just love entertaining. Some have a talent and can use it to get room and board without being tied down if they just pander to the crowd. None of this implies an emotional need for approval.

I suspect you were kidding, but the point remains.

Telonius
2008-01-15, 08:28 AM
Poe and Homer never had wbl.

They spent their rewards on ale and whores. :smallbiggrin:

AdversusVeritas
2008-01-15, 08:49 AM
The problem with bards is that the fluff is horrid and the abilities are sub-par.The fluff is entirely customizable and I've never had a problem with my Bard being sub-par in a campaign unless it was nothing but a dungeon crawl, DM nerfed me, or I was ridiculously under equipped. Sure they are not much compared to full casters, but I'd still take them over most other classes. Then again, I like playing social characters.

Bards have a spectacular skill selection, plenty of points to spend on them, and no matter what you want to say about their other abilities, fascinate (not to mention suggestion) is pretty awesome. I've found inspire courage to be an extremely useful ability and I normally manage to come up with some fluff that goes with it that the rest of my party enjoys.

Zenos
2008-01-15, 08:55 AM
The fluff is entirely customizable and I've never had a problem with my Bard being sub-par in a campaign unless it was nothing but a dungeon crawl or my DM nerfed me. Sure they are not much compared to full casters, but I'd still take them over most other classes. Then again, I like playing social characters.

This reminds me of when I was making a Vampire: Darg Ages character, all three of us put seven points in physical, but I was the only one who invested five points into social and three in mental, whilst the two others took mental stats over social skills (that can be joked about, though, for example my character has more appearance than the other two. Well, those other two were a Gangrel and a Brujah, whilst I was a Ventrue, so it makes some sense).

Talya
2008-01-15, 09:11 AM
The fluff is entirely customizable and I've never had a problem with my Bard being sub-par in a campaign unless it was nothing but a dungeon crawl, DM nerfed me, or I was ridiculously under equipped. Sure they are not much compared to full casters, but I'd still take them over most other classes. Then again, I like playing social characters.

Bards have a spectacular skill selection, plenty of points to spend on them, and no matter what you want to say about their other abilities, fascinate (not to mention suggestion) is pretty awesome. I've found inspire courage to be an extremely useful ability and I normally manage to come up with some fluff that goes with it that the rest of my party enjoys.

The fluff as stated is good, and vague. it's very customizable as well, as you said.

The class itself is potentially more powerful than any melee class, less powerful than wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid. Sublime Chord PrC is almost necessary to bring the bard up to full caster capabilities if you want them to compete with them -- and then they do so fairly well, with far better skill selection, durability, and class abilities than the sorceror, and a slight cost in spells cast per day. I would go so far as to say a Bard/Sublime Chord is completely superior to a sorcerer.

Zenos
2008-01-15, 09:20 AM
(As I typed this, I realized that it's really just about the Bardic song ability than the Bard class as a whole. But then, I like the rest of the class, so it's all good)

I think part of the problem is that what bards do with their song isn't really familiar to players from other sources. Now, we've all seen a kung fu movie where the fists fly fast and furious, so we can easily imagine Monks. We've all seen movies where swordsmen enduring massive punishment and come roaring back to slice their opponents in two, so we can easily imagine Fighters. We've all seen movies and books where the frail-looking guy in a robe is surrounded by brutes, but mutters a few words and unleashes firey arcane death on them all, so we can easily imagine Wizards and Sorcerors. But what movies and books have people whose regular contribution to their party involves singing and or chanting? Even in the cases where people do sing to encourage their friends, like in some bits of LotR, you generally see them give a bit of oratory or singing at important points in the story, and then they shut up and wade into melee, which is quite different to how a Bard would likely operate in D&D. So, when we go to the table and see someone roll a crit with their greataxe, we can see him swinging the axe and knocking someone's head off in our mind's eye, because we've seen it many times before. However, when we see someone at the table begin their Bard song, we have a hard time imagining how that might work because we've never really seen it done well before. We think, "So... you start prancing around singing? How could that help?". Now, if we'd seen some good images of people singing to help their comrades in movies and books then we could mentally bring up those experiences and use them to imagine what sorts of cool things the Bard could be doing with his song. But we don't, so as a result we either are left with a giant blank as to what the Bard is doing, or we have to rely on what the player describes himself as doing, which may be nice and entertaining, but might not be as well.

Another difficulty is that the work of the Bardic Song is more indirect than the work of the other classes. The point of most battles in D&D is to kill your enemies. A Barbarian's axe and a Wizard's Fireball are direct causes of death to one's enemies, with the slicing and the burning and so on. But a Bard's song isn't the direct cause anybody's death - unless he's Cacophonix - which limits the visceral enjoyment of their work. Sure, the sing gives a bonus that turns one of the Barbarian's near-misses into a hit, but the Barbarian is still the one doing the hitting and getting the glory. After all, we do hear stories about how we were down to our last HP but put everything into Power Attack, critted, and chopped the Ogre in half, but do we ever hear stories about how we played our instrument, increased our friend's chance's of hitting by +2, and saw him chop the Ogre in half? Now, the Bard does deserve some of the kudos for the kill, but he is unforunately behind the scenes, and as anyone who has spent time behind the scenes knows, you just don't get as much glory as the people most directly involved.

ETA: I should point this out: I don't think you can't make Bards cool, I just think that it's harder to make them cool than it it for other classes.

You forgot clerics, have you ever seen any movie (not based on D&D) where a guy in full plate walks around bashing heads with a mace, healing people and making undead turn into dust? Apart from the Warhamemr: Mark of Chaos trailer, but the priest there just walks around bashing in Chaos Warrior heads, so he doesn't count.

AdversusVeritas
2008-01-15, 09:51 AM
Amen Talya. I can't believe I let Sublime Chord slip my mind. No class ability can really compare to being able to cast 9th level spells. I was in a Ravenloft game awhile back where the party consisted of three full casters, a Bard (myself), and a Rogue. Late in the game the power difference started becoming obvious (especially since there wasn't much around for the Rogue to sneak attack), but we still managed to save the party more than once thanks to some wise equipment choices and judicious use of UMD. Outside of combat, I was a much better face than the Sorcerer, and the Rogue was every bit the skill monkey we needed him to be. All in all, I felt a little underpowered compared to the other casters, but not so much that I stopped being useful or having fun.

FYI - My character didn't sing or play a musical instrument. People have mentioned more than once that Bards can do other things, but it seems to be forgotten on a regular basis. My character was an actor who specialized in stage combat. He wasn't great at fighting, but he made it look good. My DM even let my masterwork sword add a bonus to my perform check.

Serenity
2008-01-15, 10:11 AM
@Corlis: You do realize that direct damage is largely considered a sub-par path for the wizard to take? The more powerful wizard is the one who uses his magic to weaken and confuse his foes with save or sucks.

Bardic Music isn't all about giving small static bonuses either--and note that if you take Perform: Sing, you can be swinging a blade in melee all the while. A Bard can weave his music to hold creatures rapt attention, very useful for engineering escapes and entrances past guards. At high levels, they can even overpower creature's minds and bend them to their bidding, or undo magical effects.

Beyond all that, they have a very useful selection of Illusions, Enchantments, and miscellaneous other spells available to him, which are nothing to be sneezed at.

Brom
2008-01-15, 10:48 AM
I used to have a very cool Bard who was part of the party front line. He had a perform (Heroic Speech) Skill. He fought with a rapier and had destabalized tyrannical governments by mobilizing the populace with his bardic skills >_>

Talya
2008-01-15, 10:48 AM
Hey Serenity!

/cheer browncoat!

Serenity
2008-01-15, 11:38 AM
*Grin.*

You know, in D&D terms, I bet Companion would be a Bard-oriented prestige class...

Deepblue706
2008-01-15, 02:48 PM
How so? If you yourself hate music then a class which is musically based is going to appall you regardless of how cool it is. Your judgement is biased. Which is fair enough when you're discussing your subjective taste but says nothing about the actual merits of bards.

The only phrase that made sense in that entire paragraph was hate music. Which you should, as it's the source of all evil. Now, stop filibustering and just end the discussion with "You are correct, Deepblue706. I am sorry to have disputed with your highly logical and coherent argument, that doesn't not come across as biased or blatanly silly at any single point. I hope you can forgive me for my foolishness."

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 02:51 PM
The only phrase that made sense in that entire paragraph was hate music. Which you should, as it's the source of all evil. Now, stop filibustering and just end the discussion with "You are correct, Deepblue706. I am sorry to have disputed with your highly logical and coherent argument, that doesn't not come across as biased or blatanly silly at any single point. I hope you can forgive me for my foolishness."

O...kay. That's nice. *backs away*

Talya
2008-01-15, 02:54 PM
The only phrase that made sense in that entire paragraph was hate music. Which you should, as it's the source of all evil. Now, stop filibustering and just end the discussion with "You are correct, Deepblue706. I am sorry to have disputed with your highly logical and coherent argument, that doesn't not come across as biased or blatanly silly at any single point. I hope you can forgive me for my foolishness."

If you give someone making an emotional and illogical argument enough rope, they will hang themselves eventually. :smallbiggrin:

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 03:02 PM
If you give someone making an emotional and illogical argument enough rope, they will hang themselves eventually. :smallbiggrin:

Bah, you're just saying that because you're an illogical ropeophobe. Ropophobe. Ropaphobe? Hell with it. I'm not looking up the Greek.

Deepblue706
2008-01-15, 03:14 PM
O...kay. That's nice. *backs away*

Fine, enough fun.

In all honestly, I just dislike the imagery, which I cannot shed. Wizards aren't flawless either, but when they're spouting nonsense and playing with bat guano, I can at least imagine they're talking to evil spirits or toying with the words of creation, or what have you. Bards, not so much.

I cannot see Bardic Music as simply another "system" that allows one access to magic, as it's simply inefficient. If I were inventing a system of magic, I'd say "Okay, say the secret words, do this thing, and poof, there ya go." Not, "Okay, now do a dance, recite the pledge of alliegance, and then do a thrust to make your friends tougher in battle". Music is something that takes concentration and involvement. Reciting a code from memory might not be the easiest, either, but at least you don't have to worry about the beat, your own voice, tuning your guitar, etc.

Now of course, I will not debate that you can turn a "code language" into the lyrics of a song (In fact, I remember a movie where some college kids made a song to remember the answers for a test they'd take, I distinctly recall "Creamy Butter Cheese" standing for C, B, C), but if it requires ranks in perform to enact, that means you have to actually be skilled - and what if you're having an off-day? What if you don't want to be bothered with practicing? Crap, that's what. And that is specifically why I do not see Bards as simply having an equivalent basis for magic for their Bardic Music as Wizards - which is thusly why I think Bards are simply hyper-fantastical musicians (using a "touch" of magic to make it better music, rather than cast a spell using music as a medium). They are only suitable for games where every level 1 character with a PC class is inherently better than 99% of all people. I dislike those games. I know, this is how D&D is designed, but I still try to make things "almost, kinda realistic". That means that I often say that the PCs usually aren't so tough, or so skilled (rather than take the FR route, and say nobody is a chump - and don't fight the bartender!). Bardic Music, on the other hand, I have no problem with. Well, actually, I think they should just be unified with the Wizard-method, but I digress. Singing for the vocal component is okay, if that's what you feel like doing, I guess. That doesn't help that imagery issue, however.

Serenity
2008-01-15, 04:45 PM
If you don't want to practice, then you don't do well. That's true of everything, and should be especially true of any system of magic. There's plenty of precedent for bards to be, as you put it, 'reciting the secret words of creation. If you cannot lose the image of bards as "durr, I'm doing da Hokey-Pokey, you fight good now," then that is no one's problem but your own.

Malfunctioned
2008-01-15, 05:22 PM
Are bards cool?
http://www.liquidmateria.info/w/images/4/4f/Darkwood_Vigilant_by_JasonEngle.jpg

I'd say yes :smallbiggrin:

Deepblue706
2008-01-15, 05:38 PM
If you don't want to practice, then you don't do well. That's true of everything, and should be especially true of any system of magic. There's plenty of precedent for bards to be, as you put it, 'reciting the secret words of creation. If you cannot lose the image of bards as "durr, I'm doing da Hokey-Pokey, you fight good now," then that is no one's problem but your own.

I specifically noted that memorizing the hand-gestures and phrases to cast any arcane spell is difficult enough - perhaps you neglected to take that into account because I phrased it poorly? Or, did you just not notice it? I was trying to express the idea that adding music as an alternate component for spellcasting is obviously inefficient, and was likely not what birthed the concept of Bardic Music.

If you look at Bardic Music, you'll see it requires ranks in perform. It appears to be music, with some magical flourishes added into the mix. I think it is an aesthetically poor design to first have music and then make it better through magic, and then suddenly have that magic make it SO GOOD to consistently grant benefits to combat. There's still a degree of taste involved. There's a degree of composure. There's the fact that Wizards can't ever do it without losing caster levels. Before painting my side, which you oppose, in an inherently negative image (not all of my arguments were entirely sincere, ie when I poked at all Bards for being clones of Elan of OoTS, just fyi - that was to express the idea that extra work is being added, and for no identifiable reason), maybe try considering that some developers thought that people didn't give a rats-ass about where Bardic Music came from, and just want to say to you "Play the f%#king game, nobody gives a damn about the details."

Maybe it's my problem - but maybe it only surfaced because certain designers hadn't realized that a handful of people care about things, such as the absence of details.

Deepblue706
2008-01-15, 05:40 PM
Are bards cool?
http://www.liquidmateria.info/w/images/4/4f/Darkwood_Vigilant_by_JasonEngle.jpg

I'd say yes :smallbiggrin:

That picture is hilarious!

Jimblee
2008-01-15, 05:40 PM
Bards are very cool. They're probably the coolest class out there.

I think their trouble is people take bard to mean "Musician". Well, music is in their portfolio, but they have a lot more going for them. If the class was truly intended to mean "They play music" and nothing more, then Perform wouldn't be available to anyone else, would it?

I kind of wish they had less emphasis on the music part of it, actually. I like the jack-of-all-trades sort of thing more

Deepblue706
2008-01-15, 05:41 PM
Bards are very cool. They're probably the coolest class out there.

I think their trouble is people take bard to mean "Musician". Well, music is in their portfolio, but they have a lot more going for them. If the class was truly intended to mean "They play music" and nothing more, then Perform wouldn't be available to anyone else, would it?

I kind of wish they had less emphasis on the music part of it, actually. I like the jack-of-all-trades sort of thing more

I actually love the concept of the Bard - I just dislike Bardic Music being a standard combat option.

marjan
2008-01-15, 05:42 PM
Are bards cool?
http://www.liquidmateria.info/w/images/4/4f/Darkwood_Vigilant_by_JasonEngle.jpg

I'd say yes :smallbiggrin:

Nice picture. Where is it from?

Talya
2008-01-15, 06:14 PM
I specifically noted that memorizing the hand-gestures and phrases to cast any arcane spell is difficult enough - perhaps you neglected to take that into account because I phrased it poorly? Or, did you just not notice it? I was trying to express the idea that adding music as an alternate component for spellcasting is obviously inefficient, and was likely not what birthed the concept of Bardic Music.

If you look at Bardic Music, you'll see it requires ranks in perform. It appears to be music, with some magical flourishes added into the mix. I think it is an aesthetically poor design to first have music and then make it better through magic, and then suddenly have that magic make it SO GOOD to consistently grant benefits to combat. There's still a degree of taste involved. There's a degree of composure. There's the fact that Wizards can't ever do it without losing caster levels. Before painting my side, which you oppose, in an inherently negative image (not all of my arguments were entirely sincere, ie when I poked at all Bards for being clones of Elan of OoTS, just fyi - that was to express the idea that extra work is being added, and for no identifiable reason), maybe try considering that some developers thought that people didn't give a rats-ass about where Bardic Music came from, and just want to say to you "Play the f%#king game, nobody gives a damn about the details."

Maybe it's my problem - but maybe it only surfaced because certain designers hadn't realized that a handful of people care about things, such as the absence of details.

I would house rule that a wizard could learn bardic music...but that the study and dedication required to learn it would cost them 3 levels worth of spells.

Anyway, music feels magical enough in real life. It's certainly an easier stretch to having inherently magical music than it is to think that a few hand gestures and arcane words would command great cosmic power. Bardic music is weaving magic into the most powerful catalyst of human emotion --song itself-- and imbuing those allies who hear it with magically improved combat abilities. Since spontaneous casters have a connection to magic through their strength of will alone, the powerful emotions that a bard can evoke within themselves through the use of their art allows them to subtlely manipulate those arcane forces in ways that mere mental force, or arcane study, cannot duplicate.

DementedFellow
2008-01-15, 10:42 PM
Picture a bard who is hasted and who raps as his musical ability. Arm him with a crossbow or similar ranged weapon as he wades into battle. The mental image reminds me of Blur in the original Transformers movie.

The Faceless
2008-01-15, 11:50 PM
Build your lute out of metal in the shame of a rams skull and wear skintight black studded leather. poof up your hair, wear facepaint and presto, instant glam metal bard!

Too silly? OK then.

A grizzled old man, hard worn by years of travel along the highways and byways of the world. he's picked up a smattering of pretty much everything: a few arcane tricks, a little bit of music, and figured out how to weave his spells into his songs. he's pretty handy with a blade, he can fast talk like a champion and he can be pretty sneaky as the need arises. he's survived this long by trusting himself and only himself, but now he has to team up with a band of young upstarts and learn to work with them.

A young performer inspired by the traveling minstrels that visited the village when he was a lad, out to write a great saga to be remembered by. He tags along with the party not for wealth or honor or for the greater good, or even wine and women (not that he doesn't indulge from time to time), but glory. glory that will be remembered down the ages. He aways seeks the most dangerous tasks, comes up with the most daring solutions, he lives life on the edge because that's what the crowd wants, and he wants his saga to be true to life as possible.

For an oriental campaign, a geisha girl from an elite academy, trained as an entertainer and assassin, who fell in with the party after a botched job at a nobles castle. wanted by both the nobles to take vengeance, and the academy as failure demands death, she's on the run. She uses her good looks, sly wit, supernatural talents, elegant and mystical koto playing, and the occasional well placed blade to help the party, as long as they help and hide her.

And that's just off the top of my head. Bards can be cool, you just have to think a bit. Like any class really.

horseboy
2008-01-15, 11:58 PM
you cannot lose the image of bards as "durr, I'm doing da Hokey-Pokey, you fight good now," then that is no one's problem but your own.


They're hardly sated after a raid, those men from Zenthil Keep,
They kill off all the women, cause the much prefer the sheep.
But they never eat their ill gotten gains, not a single one's a glutton.
So isn't it a marvel that they always smell of mutton?
Nope it's not just his problem. TSR had it and WotC has it too.

Tengu
2008-01-16, 12:56 AM
Nope it's not just his problem. TSR had it and WotC has it too.

Yeah, but WotC still think that clerics are healbots, wizards are supposed to throw fireballs and magic missiles around, fighters are kings of melee, and monk is a cool, flavorful and strong class.

horseboy
2008-01-16, 01:17 AM
Yeah, but WotC still think that clerics are healbots, wizards are supposed to throw fireballs and magic missiles around, fighters are kings of melee, and monk is a cool, flavorful and strong class.

So, odds are they had to get at least one right? :smallwink:

Talic
2008-01-16, 03:52 AM
A grizzled old man, hard worn by years of travel along the highways and byways of the world. he's picked up a smattering of pretty much everything: a few arcane tricks, a little bit of music, and figured out how to weave his spells into his songs. he's pretty handy with a blade, he can fast talk like a champion and he can be pretty sneaky as the need arises. he's survived this long by trusting himself and only himself, but now he has to team up with a band of young upstarts and learn to work with them.

Willie Nelson?


A young performer inspired by the traveling minstrels that visited the village when he was a lad, out to write a great saga to be remembered by. He tags along with the party not for wealth or honor or for the greater good, or even wine and women (not that he doesn't indulge from time to time), but glory. glory that will be remembered down the ages. He aways seeks the most dangerous tasks, comes up with the most daring solutions, he lives life on the edge because that's what the crowd wants, and he wants his saga to be true to life as possible.

A less cool version of Achilles?


For an oriental campaign, a geisha girl from an elite academy, trained as an entertainer and assassin, who fell in with the party after a botched job at a nobles castle. wanted by both the nobles to take vengeance, and the academy as failure demands death, she's on the run. She uses her good looks, sly wit, supernatural talents, elegant and mystical koto playing, and the occasional well placed blade to help the party, as long as they help and hide her.

Standard fare fugitive, except for a change, she did do the crime? Hmm.


And that's just off the top of my head. Bards can be cool, you just have to think a bit. Like any class really.
Hmm. Fighter. Big sword. Cool
Wizard. Own the world. Cool
Druid. Transform and roll out. Cool
Sorceror. Meltify. Cool
Barbarian. Big weapon. Foamy mouth. Cool
Ranger. Animal companion, doesn't have 2 scimitars. Cool
Rogue. Stabbify. Cool
Monk. Grabbify. Cool... Pansy, but Cool
Paladin. Ok, you got me here.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-16, 04:25 AM
Paladins suffer from the same problem with being cool that bards do. The only cool aspects of the class (for paladins, big sword, bards talking people into slitting their own throat) are overshadowed by sub-par class features. (stick or general idiocy of the basic idea) Yes, some people say bards are cool. Some people also like Kobolds, think spiked chains are legitimate, and that it's spelled rouge. All are entitled to their opinions, and I am allowed to consider them all wrong. The basic problem I have with bards is that, no matter how much it helps, someone who stands around playing music during combat appears silly to me. The basic of a wizard isn't "he stands around chanting and mixing ingredients during combat", it's "he throws FIREBALLS". The basic of a bard is "he plays music to help you". When I picture a wizard, or a fighter, or a druid on my side in combat, I see the effect of their actions, the battlefield riddled with bodies as they slaughter more in various inventive ways. When I picture a bard on my side, I see...a guy playing a fiddle. Yes, that can be made cool, but it takes more work. I'm currently stating up an awesome paladin just to prove it can be done, but making a bard cool is like making a powerful monk. Yes, it can be done, but it takes more work than if you had just played a different class, and doing so, by the very nature of the amount of work you put into it, disproves your own assertion.

kamikasei
2008-01-16, 04:58 AM
Paladins suffer from the same problem with being cool that bards do. The only cool aspects of the class (for paladins, big sword, bards talking people into slitting their own throat) are overshadowed by sub-par class features.

Paladins have plenty of cool aspects: the charisma, the "chosen by the gods" factor, the righteousness... sure, a stick-up-the-rear Lawful Stupid zealot paladin is uncool, but this is not a class feature.

As for bards, I would point to the wandering nature, the casting, the resourcefulness, the flair, and yes, the music as all being cool aspects of the class. You may not like them yourself, but they're there and they make the bard cool to many.


Some people also... think... that it's spelled rouge. All are entitled to their opinions, and I am allowed to consider them all wrong.

Yes, because whether bards are cool or kobolds are fun is anything like the question of whether a word is being spelled correctly.

Taliserra
2008-01-16, 06:22 AM
I have had a quick read of this thread, and not really seen a big mention of much other than bardic music, and whether or not they fight, and are so considered useful. I am playing a bard in a large DnD group that has a mix of the normal stuff, cleric, fighter classes, and an arcane spellcaster...why did I pick a bard? Cos one thing that I haven't seen focused on here stood out to me, while I get to be the face of the party with my uber charisma (as stated in other replies), but I also note that bards have the best mix of crowd control spells in a game, sure clerics, and arcane casters can do this abit to, but a bard in a party changes fights in a different way. for example fighting 3 minotaurs, and a bard uses spells to lock one or two down, then the party has less ppl being hit, less needs for the cleric heals, and more dmg dealt to one target at a time to a single target. Crowd Control makes a fight safer, and once their is some in place the bard can get back to fighting/singing, whatever the party requires aid with next.

The biggest strength of the bard will always be that they can be cool by being just what the party needs when it needs it, when the cleric is out of healing, and the bard steps in they are cool, when the other monster in a group breaks past the fighters, and heads for the mage but gets locked down, the bard is cool, when the rogue is in trouble in town, and he needs help resolving a situation the bard is cool, filling gaps like nobody else is the coolest thing they can be, then you prestige class into something that makes the a little more specialised at the bits that have made them stand out in your group so far, I for instance am going for the heartwarder, am gonna spread the love, and even give the orc barbarian tips on looking awe inspiring when entering a town :)

kamikasei
2008-01-16, 06:29 AM
Crowd Control makes a fight safer, and once their is some in place the bard can get back to fighting/singing, whatever the party requires aid with next.

That's true of course, but it's not really bard-exclusive. I don't think I'd agree that the bard is even the best at it. Battlefield Control is one of the things Wizards are supposed to be doing instead of blasting (as per this board's collective wisdom, not design intent).

Taliserra
2008-01-16, 06:43 AM
That's true of course, but it's not really bard-exclusive. I don't think I'd agree that the bard is even the best at it. Battlefield Control is one of the things Wizards are supposed to be doing instead of blasting (as per this board's collective wisdom, not design intent).

True, but imo it adds to a bards coolness, and if the buffs are being handed out by a cleric or druid, then a bard can use their songs to fascinate/suggest against opponents, giving an extra number of cc abilites equal to their level, giving them many more options for it than a wizard. Especially as a wizard has to choose his crowd control at the beginning of the day, but all of a bards cc is spontaneously cast.

Malfunctioned
2008-01-16, 12:27 PM
Nice picture. Where is it from?

Not sure, I just found it on the Ultimate Bard page on Liquid Materia.

Jimblee
2008-01-16, 01:37 PM
A grizzled old man, hard worn by years of travel along the highways and byways of the world. he's picked up a smattering of pretty much everything: a few arcane tricks, a little bit of music, and figured out how to weave his spells into his songs. he's pretty handy with a blade, he can fast talk like a champion and he can be pretty sneaky as the need arises. he's survived this long by trusting himself and only himself, but now he has to team up with a band of young upstarts and learn to work with them.

A friend of mine had a character like this. He had a bladed fan for a weapon, an assortment of bladed cloaks or nettled ones, and sometimes put poisoned darts in flutes and whatnot. Pretty cool character. Took the angry old man bit too far, though, got into one too many fights, and even opted out of an entire quest plot on the grounds that he "see no reason to work with that pompous filth-scum! You can all rot if I care" (The person he was talking about was a paladin), and he had to sit in the corner throughout the whole session

Talya
2008-01-16, 02:32 PM
The basic problem I have with bards is that, no matter how much it helps, someone who stands around playing music during combat appears silly to me.

Oh, I tend to agree. A bard using an instrument on a battlefield is probably poorly designed. There are many ways you can perform bardic music without using up your hands and keeping you from mixing it up in combat.


When I picture a bard on my side, I see...a guy playing a fiddle. Yes, that can be made cool, but it takes more work.


That image would be particularly cool if it's a bard named Johnny, up against a pit fiend.

kamikasei
2008-01-16, 02:49 PM
That image would be particularly cool if it's a bard named Johnny, up against a pit fiend.

I've wanted to play an epic bard-focused campaign ever since seeing the end of the Tenacious D movie.

"I'm the devil, I love metal!"

LightWarden
2008-01-16, 08:35 PM
I'm one of those strange people who would play a bard completely defensively, without making a single attack. Because face it, your puny shortbow isn't going to turn the tide, and if you're mixing it up in melee you're either Elan or have something resembling a death wish. Instead, hang back and rock your little heart out.

There are two feats you really want:
-Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting): Increases the effects of all your bardic music by +1. Where else can you find a feat that gives you 6 to 8 levels worth of power for free? 3rd level feat
-Melodic Caster (Complete Mage): Lets you make a perform check instead of a concentration check to activate a spell or spell-like ability, AND allows you to cast spells and activate magic items while using Bardic Music. Can be taken at 1st level.

So start out with a little Inspire Courage, maintain it with a move action then wander around expending spells when you feel like it with your standard action. Invisibility? Sure. Haste? Why not? If you also pick up Lingering Song, you can pretty much keep the entire party rolling in the pluses for the entire battle off of one single use of Bardic Music. Let your roadies do the heavy lifting for you, just keep yourself alive.

But why stop there? One ridiculously fun (and somewhat inefficient) way of playing a bard is to pump up your Int and pick up the "Versatile Performer" feat from Complete Adventurer, allowing you to effectively boost a number of categories of perform equal to 1+INT (minimum 2) with just a single set of skill points. If you really want to have fun with it, ask your DM if you can get a wand. Well, it's actually a rod, but it's the size of a wand, it's a magical conductor's baton allowing you to play phantom instruments using your perform modifier. Since it's got no real game effect other than looking spiffy, I'd probably let the player have it for a few thousand GP, (crafting would have the prereqs of ghost sound, maybe sculpt sound and a few levels of bard if I wanted to be irritating. I thought there was an "accompaniment" spell somewhere that gave a bonus to perform checks, but I can't find it... may have been third party or a hallucination). With a high enough Int, you are now John Williams and the London Symphony Orchestra. With Percussion, Winds, Strings and Keys, you can pretty much play just about any movie soundtrack you feel like using. Throw in some Singing and you can add in the ominous Latin chanting (or spend some skill points/get the "Master Linguist" feat from Races of Eberron and speak an absurd number of languages... or just use Tongues). Sit back and go crazy.

Though if the thought of not stabbing anything ever is enough to drive you into a fit of rage, just get a bard cohort with this sort of build.

Other fun feats:

Find Familiar (Complete Arcane): What does a bard need with a pet? Well, do the words "use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better" mean anything to you? Get a monkey and watch it dance! (Note, this works well for Beguilers as well, who get skills such as open lock) At minimum, it's a free "aid another" on just about any skill check you make. Plus, it can scout and hold your loot.

Subsonics (Complete Adventurer): Now your enemies can't tell who's using the music. Go invisible, wander around without using a single offensive ability and buff like a mad man.

There's also a crazy feat tree involving getting a dragon ancestor feat from Races of the Dragon (specifically a battle dragon ancestor) then combining it with the Dragonfire Inspiration feat (which allows you to add 1d6 elemental damage per point of bonus of Inspire Courage to the damage of your allies. In the case of a battle dragon, that's *sonic* damage). With Song of the Heart, you're already at another bonus +1d6 damage, and if you combine Words of Creation (an exalted feat requiring 15 Int and Cha), you can *double* the bardic bonus. So a 20th level bard would give his allies +10d6 points of sonic damage on each attack. Then you cast the "Cacophony" spell, which gives everything in the area a sonic vulnerability... They'll be gone before you can even blink. It does require a stupid amount of feats to reach maximum cheese potential (Dragontouched +Draconic Heiritage + Song of the Heart + Melodic Casting + Dragonfire Inspiration + Words of Creation) though it can be done with much less.

Point is, if you don't mind not stabbing people (or if you have a cohort), you can get some serious milage out of a bard by turning the whole party into a walking Cuisinart.