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Danin
2008-01-13, 03:22 PM
Long story short, I'm rolling up a 12th level Marshal / Legendary leader with an absurd leadership score and used my wealth by level to buy a castle which presides over the surrounding village. The garrison counts against my limit of followers but the town is just happy to have a benevolent lord presiding over them. This way we have a swanky base of operations and a nice place to kick up our heels and rest for a week or two while I visit my wife.

Heres my question - Assuming I could have had maisons and carpenters build the keep for half price, the cost of a cheap, no major frills keep is 35k gold (70k gold before the price adjustment). Having only 88k gold for my wealth by level if I expect anything better than a +2 longsword I'm going to need to find a way to cut the cost. Note, I'll also be able to use some of my 11th level cohort's wealth by level for the keep aswell but he runs into the same problem. So, any ideas on ways to cut down the price?

Second of all, what are some important features for a smaller castle? I library and garden will be necisary, but what from a tactical standpoint makes sense? Note, war isn't the first thing on our mind but we definately want to be prepared. Still, much consideration should be given to detail (Including a dining hall for servents and decent accomidations for them. The castle should be able to fit approximately 60 - 80 people with a reasonable degree of comfort (Most of my soldiers have accomidations in town while there not on duty, but some should form a permanent garrison).

Everyone on this board seems to be so creative and what not so if you have any other interesting ideas, please, swing them my way.

Chronicled
2008-01-13, 03:29 PM
Instead of masons and carpenters, have the majority of the work done by a couple cleric/druid/wizard buddies. Shape Stone, Move Earth, and similar spells could save you a lot of time, effort, and money. Normally, you'd have to pay them handsomely for their time, but if you wrote into your backstory that you were friends with your group's full caster, you could have them agree to do it cheap/free.

Laurellien
2008-01-13, 03:31 PM
Try using Undead leadership from Libris Mortis, because the accommodation that 60-80 mindless undead = a shelter from the rain to stop their gear rusting.

Danin
2008-01-13, 03:51 PM
Although I'm quite an advocate of undead working tirelessly through the day and night to build me a city / castle / empire, I feel I should mention something:

The Character is a Lawfull Good paragon of justice and honour, travelling the world righting wrongs and solving the problems of the poor and destitute. Slightly nieve, but good through and through and very traditional. Besides, I doubt his parents would approve of him raiding the local graveyard and the townsfolk probably wouldn't dig that either.

As to the friend of the PC's idea I like it, but unfortunately we havent met yet. This is a new character after my old warlock was torn in half by a devil and ascended to the afterlife because he redeemed himself by sacrificing his life to save his friends and thus nulified the demoic pact that was binding him.

Iku Rex
2008-01-13, 03:59 PM
1. Talk to your DM about getting a keep for free. It doesn't really make you more powerful as such, so there's no reason to take it out of the game balance limit of 88000 gp.

2. Make the cohort a wizard specializing in building stuff. With the right spells and skills he can build the keep for you single-handedly. (Wall of stone, wall of iron, stone shape, move earth, fabricate, hardening [SC], etc. )

bugsysservant
2008-01-13, 04:08 PM
If you're serious about this, you should consider picking up the Stronghold Builder's Guide. Its,I IRC, 3.0, but doesn't have a lot that can't be ignored/adapted to 3.5. Its specifically written for this sort of thing.

Also, consider tyranny. People find the thread of imminent death by horrible torture to be an excellent motivator, both for labor and price.

Edit: Damned posters when typing my reply. And you're sure you wouldn't consider blackguard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html)?

SpiderMew
2008-01-13, 04:19 PM
Start out by building in a mountans area. This will give you one less side of you to have to watch in an attack, use spells to build into the mountan (have your 11th lv cohort be some sort of cleric or even a druid who's helping you make your keep apart and allyed with nature)
Also if your Cohort is a druid, then you can cut the money issue by setting up natural defences.
If your moutans area also has caves near by, you could also set up a bat guanno collection busness (how else are wizards going to get it for all their fireball spells!) The profits from that can be used to fund further castle expantion and spell casters to build your defences deeper.
You can set up water mills for grinding grain if there is a river near by, and export flour. And green roof buildings, this will keep houses cooler in the summer, warmer in the winter, make druids happy, and you may see an increase in druids willing to help fortafy your defences.

Shovah
2008-01-13, 04:30 PM
Just a small note:
Remember to get some decanters of endless water. Incredibly useful little things.

Yahzi
2008-01-13, 04:33 PM
1. Talk to your DM about getting a keep for free. It doesn't really make you more powerful as such, so there's no reason to take it out of the game balance limit of 88000 gp.
Exactly right.

Lyre of Building (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#lyreofBuilding)
13K gold, the services of a Bard who can make a DC 18 perform check, a few weeks, and you can make your own castle. A few more weeks and you can wall your town, build a dam, and install a paved highway system.

Sure, your castle won't have furnishings and stuff, but you can buy that for no more than half the listied price.

The point is, any keep/castle/fortress/building is worth no more than 13K, because that's effectively what it costs to build one.

Necromas
2008-01-13, 07:00 PM
Stronghold builders guide has a feat that gives you a huge amount of money based on your level as long as you put it towards building a stronghold, and it gives you a discount on anything you buy out of pocket.

I think Heroes of Battle might have a similar feat as well.

Danin
2008-01-13, 07:57 PM
I am intrigued by the existance of such a feat as I have one left that I don't know what to do with. However, such a feat is not in Heros of Battle as I have it infront of me at the moment (or at least about 30 seconds ago) and I don't have access to the Stronghold Builder's handbook (I got the bast cost of 70k from the excerpt on the wizards site).

As to natural geography there is a nearby river and mountains reasonably near by but not close enough to build against. Were near a fairly large forest to the north and east and have an rocky plain to the south and south west which just so happens to be the direction of the tyranical elven empire. Go figure eh?

I do like the lyre of building as my cohort or 6th level follower I was going to get is a bard and a DC 18 check ain't too hard. That would save me a lot of cash, though I'm not sure if my DM would allow it (He is pretty strict on what he allows in his campaigns. He also warned me that this wouldn't be cheap but he would find a way to up my wealth by level early in the adventure). If my cohort isn't the bard he will likely by the Captain of the Guard, a Knight / Tactical soldier with whom I would have Shield wall and Shield mate.

And yes, there will be magical provisions for the seige that I just know will come.

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-13, 08:08 PM
Try using Undead leadership from Libris Mortis, because the accommodation that 60-80 mindless undead = a shelter from the rain to stop their gear rusting.

I must put forth my support of this idea.

And a Lawful Good character could easily justify Undead Leadership by saying that those undead are Chaotic Evil criminals and are serving their penance as your minions. And once they've redeemed themselves, you're going to 'release' their souls tot be judged by your character's god.

Fishy
2008-01-13, 08:50 PM
Actually, isn't Perform a class skill for Marshals? Why go through the cohort?

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-13, 08:53 PM
I suspect he's not the Pragmatic sort of Lawful Good :P

Outsiders or Constructs work. Outsiders might be a bit tricky to convince to work. Constructs have to do what they're told... in this case Construct. If you could get a magical buddy to make one.

SilentNight
2008-01-13, 09:02 PM
Use move earth to get the castle on a mound and then dig a really deep moat. Murder holes are always a good Idea. Also for the inevitable seige consider sleeper pits. These are trenches that are dug on even ground and then covered with a sturdy top. Then soldiers, large spikes and defenses are concealed within. Once the first enemy charge passes the sleepers they burst from cover and bam. The vanguard is flanked then and there. Meanwhile the rest of the invading army has to deal with spiked trenches in order to help their friends. Also if you have Dragonlance try the spell earthen shield or something like that. I love it. Here it is.

Earthen Shield
Conjuration (creation)
Clr3. Sor/Wiz 3
Componets:V,S
Casting Time: One standard action
Range:Close (25ft+5ft per level)
Effect:walla of earth 5ft long/level and 1ft thick
Duration: I minute per level
Saving throw none
SR: No

Must be cast on clear ground. One 5'x5'x1' per level which can be stacked on top of or behind one another as needed up to 10ft high. Each five foot section has 100 hit points per foot of thickness and hardness 0. A creature can break a section with a successful strength check DC 15+5 per foot of thickness. Climbing an earthen shield requires a DC 15 climb check.

Voyager_I
2008-01-13, 10:04 PM
And a Lawful Good character could easily justify Undead Leadership by saying that those undead are Chaotic Evil criminals and are serving their penance as your minions. And once they've redeemed themselves, you're going to 'release' their souls tot be judged by your character's god.

Undead don't have souls, they're just empty bodies animated by magical powers. Ergo, no penance for the wicked (aside from being in Blood War).

BRC
2008-01-13, 10:34 PM
Whats the surrounding territory like? Could you say, have a fast flowing river (or somthing) and stick your keep in front of the only bridge.

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-13, 10:49 PM
I am intrigued by the existance of such a feat as I have one left that I don't know what to do with. However, such a feat is not in Heros of Battle as I have it infront of me at the moment (or at least about 30 seconds ago) and I don't have access to the Stronghold Builder's handbook (I got the bast cost of 70k from the excerpt on the wizards site).
The feat he referred to is called Landlord. I forget exactly how it scales. The Stronghold Builder's Guidebook is a really good investment; there's very little in there that needs conversion to 3.5 since it doesn't involve characters or monsters; materials and so forth didn't change much.

JediNite
2008-01-13, 11:00 PM
What to do with a kingdom...

... need a horse? :smallbiggrin:
-Jedi

Danin
2008-01-13, 11:07 PM
Well, thus far I am liking the lyre of building but that Landlord feat makes a whole lot more sense. Besides, I already had a head architect rolled up, I'd hate to have all his hard work put to shame by a 5th level bard.

Still, I'm liking the suggestions here and am working with my DM to see if I could get any pennance for my keep. If possible I'd like to start an organization based out of my town with a regional influence as that would just be cool.

I don't suppose anyone knows anywhere I could get more information on that feat?

KeithTheThinker
2008-01-13, 11:26 PM
Okay, I found the feat in my Stronghold Builder's Guidebook.
I think you said your character was at level 12, and Landlord gives 100,000 gp to be spent on a stronghold for characters at that level. Also, any GP you spend out of your own pocket (i.e. not including the 100,000gp from taking the feat) gives you a bonus amount of however much you spent.

Any gold given to you towards the stronghold by an ally isn't doubled in this way, however, unless they also have the Landlord feat.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-13, 11:39 PM
The Character is a Lawfull Good paragon of justice and honour, travelling the world righting wrongs and solving the problems of the poor and destitute. Slightly nieve, but good through and through and very traditional. Besides, I doubt his parents would approve of him raiding the local graveyard and the townsfolk probably wouldn't dig that either.


Well, there goes my idea of selling your peasants into slavery. ;-)

The Lyre of Building is a great option. If you get a cohort you can trust, leaving them with the lyre of building and your militia would be a good idea... your cohort becomes your senechal. As pointed out a Marshall would do this VERY well, and they tend towards lawful (i.e. loyal), whereas bards do not.

Randel
2008-01-14, 02:48 AM
I was looking through my copy of the stronghold buillders guide and I think that the Cheap Keep has mortar exterior walls and wooden interior walls.

It doesn't give specific lists of what the items and costs of it are but I calculated that 35,000 gp of the keeps cost is in the walls. namely the exterior mortar walls.

mortar walls cost 2,500 gp per stronghold space used.
wood walls are free (as long as there is nearby forest and the keep doesn't go higher than 2 stories or lower than 1 story underground, otherwise its 1,000 gp per space)

buildings with 21-45 spaces are 50% interior walls and 50% exterior.

2,500 x 28 x .5 = 35,000
0 x 28 x .5 = 0


The rest of the cost is in furnishing the building with the gate and furniture and stuff.

So if you really want to save money you can make the whole castle out of wood (which would make it significantly less fireproof) though you would probably need a copy of the Stronghold Builders Guide to convince your DM of it.

Also, it says that hewn stone walls (which cost 6,000 gp per space normally) can be created with the wall of stone spell. It says if you have a 16th level wizard he can create the walls for a space with 12 castings of wall of stone, a 20th level wizard can wall a room with 5 castings)

Thats probably a bit out of the question, though a 12th level wizard can halve the cost of stone walls with 12 castings per space. thats still 3,000 gp per space so it would be more expensive.


If you have a druid capable of casting Plant Growth, you can have him enrich the farms around the area. More productive land means you can get more taxes and don't have to encroach on nature as much (if that makes the druid happy)

A decanter of endless water helps provide water for the keep and if you set it up right you can have a little stream coming down and run water wheels or something to help grind grain.

Also, if you really want to, create an automatically resetting trap of Create Food and Water.

it should cost about 7,500 gp and 600 xp for virtually unlimited food.

other abusable magic traps could be made up to heal peasants or something and give you some income that way.

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-14, 03:00 AM
Undead don't have souls, they're just empty bodies animated by magical powers. Ergo, no penance for the wicked (aside from being in Blood War).

Where does it say this, exactly?

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-01-14, 09:30 AM
That is absolutely brilliant...an automatically resetting trap built into a kitchen cupboard that casts create food and drink when opened...or into a 'magical box' that you keep in the kitchen...Hmmm...if the trap resets and changes the contents each time, it would explain why people are always looking in there after they just closed the door...you also need a light spell that triggers when the door is open. :smallbiggrin:

hamlet
2008-01-14, 11:10 AM
Huh, wonder why everybody's going after rules and crunchy "solutions" to this when there's a really easy one that doesn't require any of that.

Simple answer: talk to the DM. Say this: "My character concept is of a land owning marshall with a small keep/castle above a small village. Here's the area on the map I was thinking of. Now, according to wealth by level, I can't really afford to outright purchase it, but how's about letting me write into my character history that my character has "liberated" this small village and its keep which had been taken over by an evil elf warlord intent on oppressing the local populace and enslaving them."

Likely, the castle is a little beaten down if only from the fight to reclaim it, or from previous long term vacancy (I mean really, the elf only had it for a couple of weeks before you showed up and kicked his scrawny backside to the curb), so there's a good bit of work to be done. It's not precisely livable due to a few holes in the walls and dangerous floors, maybe there's something dangerous creeping around the dungeon level that you haven't taken care of yet.

Meanwhile, the peasants in the village aren't exactly thrilled. The last guy who showed up and claimed to be the lord of the area was a jerk and killed off a number of their population. Before that, they had a good generation or so of salutory neglect from the local kingdom who all but forgot about their existance and even failed to collect taxes two years ago. They'd grown to enjoy their autonomy.

So, you've got your castle, but you've also got a whole lot of "adventure hooks" and things you can use to make it an interesting experience. In an effort to win over the town folk, you can contract with the local craft people to repair and refurnish your new castle and do the things you can't accomplish for virtual free with magic: put some currency into the local economy, and the people will be happier. You introduce them to your cohort/seneschal and let them know that he's in charge of the castle until you return.

Think up a few things that local craftsmen can do that you can afford, and make sure that they benefit them as well. Build a new bridge over the river, or refurbish the old one. Best thing might be to have "civilian bombshelters" built within castle walls that can shelter your peasants in case of monster or elf attack. Be sure to work out an orderly evacuation plan with the local mayor/town council so that everybody knows where to go and what to bring with them in case of emergency. Doing stuff like that gets the peasants into a good mood where you're concerned because you're obviously concerned about their wellfare rather than in just soaking them for taxes (you are, after all, an exemplar of LG justice yes?).

As for the loyalty of your retainers, don't worry about their alignment. Chaotic alignment does not mean that they act unpredictably and are not loyal, it only means that they are individualistic. Which is exaclty the kind of person you want to be in charge while you're away. Somebody who's not going to need orders and direction at all times, but who you pay well enough to stick with you and not usurp your position. Also pays to work very closely with town mayor and maybe have him be a check against an ambitious hireling.

At this point, if you've done everything right, you've got happy, interested peasants who are working with you rather than for you. You've got a steady income since you can levy a small tax (enough to cover whatever taxes come from the larger kingdom and your own living expenses) and after all that, you've barely dipped into your starting wealth. Add on top of that the landlord thing that has been mentioned and you're in like flint.

You don't need a set of special rules and feats to get you a castle and a nice setup, just some common sense.

Faithdreamer
2008-01-14, 06:08 PM
I’d like to point out with my flawless intuition that constructs require the souls of elemental spirits to be forcibly bound into them for what amounts to an eternity. That doesn’t sound very lawful good to me Mr. Undead Munchkins. I’ll help design a castle, though.

Danin
2008-01-14, 09:05 PM
Well, I've spoken with my DM and we've (tentatively) worked something out. I use a feat on Land lord but since I have no official source to show him (IE: I don't have the book) he is reducing the ammount of cash I get for the keep to my wealth by level. So I have 88k that must be spent on the keep and 88k for my stuff. Any money I put into the keep out of my own pocket is not doubled but I do have skilled maisons and crafters willing to work for money that has been collected through taxes, so that effectively reduces my costs by half. I may use the lyre of building but it is limited to rough and only reasonably high quality things (So I can produce hewn stone walls but not, say, great wood work or a mosaic). This is to encourace me to use it as a base and for the walls but not the keep as a whole.

Speaking of the keep it is going to be a mid 15th century style building while borrowing elements of the Victorian era for a more stylistic and artistic approach. This means that it will be a very functionable castle, it might give up some effectiveness in the name of astetics. As to building the keep, however, I am still looking for ideas as to what to include, how to design a castle (Much less while maintaing good standards of living for the servents) and am looking for ideas for defensive options (Guard towers? Seige weapons? Dragon chained up in the basement? That one seems a little more of a liability though...).

Finally, what would be some ineresting lot hooks to have? I like giving my DM lots of things to work with, perhaps you could add a few to the list I've cobbled together.

Ooh, and thanks everyone, your help is greatly appreciated! I'd be lost without you all:smallsmile:

Benejeseret
2008-01-14, 09:57 PM
Golems and Homunculi would be my suggestion.

They can make your city inspiring and beautiful if master crafted to statues and art. Each enterance to your keep could have a square or garden with a large stone golem sentinal as part of a fountain or made to the likeness of a famous local hero. The sheer beauty of it would boost moral and give the clean, lawful good feel to the whole place.

The keep parapits and outer stone walls could guarded by gargoyles, or gargoyle-like winged homunculi. Or, winged homunculi/golems made into the image of angels to fit the whole theme if you do not want a gothic element.

If built into the side of a mountain face or cliff you could use commoners with proffession mining to quickly carve out the keep along with the lyre. The average commoner with say mining proffession +5 could each carve out 1/2 5'square a day out of straight granite by taking ten. Even with as few as 50 miners you are making a 25 squarefoot room every single day plus what the lyre can manage. Then you also have 25 square foot worth of granite to use on walls, churches, aquaducts etc outside of the keep. Look up the rock churches of Lalibela, Ethiopia to see real life examples of whole buildings carved out of rock rather than build up. Now add DnD magic, skills and fantasy glamour and you have a quickly developing keep.

With the miners quickly building the keep downwards and into the rock. Again in a 7 day week you could get 175 square feet hewn out with 50 men.....and for free/wages plus 175 square feet of resources in the form of granite for the lyre to build outside churches, walls, and defences with. Can 50 men build a 175 square foot building normally using craft in a week....I doubt it.

If you find an artificer cohort or hire a guild of artificers to move into your keep you would start quickly amassing golems and homunculi. The golems would be the primary defence, and also could be adapted to construction early on.

This way you are not using land that could otherwise be used as farms, and with the mass of granite you are producing every farmstead could be made of solid stone with the lyre, a great improvement for the average farmer.

I also second the druid for farm assistance as you can make arrangements with them. Since you can use stone for nearly everything their forests can remain relatively untouched.

[Edit: and for plot hooks, well, digging downward is always going to uncover something whether it be buried powerful artifacts to breaking into the underdark.]

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-14, 10:03 PM
Don't forget not to include a door. That's what Teleport is for.

Te'Shen
2008-01-14, 11:10 PM
. . . 2. Make the cohort a wizard specializing in building stuff. With the right spells and skills he can build the keep for you single-handedly. (Wall of stone, wall of iron, stone shape, move earth, fabricate, hardening [SC], etc. ). . .
I believe that is called an artificer (ECS pp. 29-33) ;)


. . . I do like the lyre of building as my cohort or 6th level follower I was going to get is a bard and a DC 18 check ain't too hard. That would save me a lot of cash, though I'm not sure if my DM would allow it (He is pretty strict on what he allows in his campaigns. . .
Well, the lyre that Yahzi pointed out is core... it doesn't get much more official than that. I really think it shouldn't be that hard to have a follower handle the lyre. Just find one with perform as a class skill (level 1 = 4 ranks) plus skill focus (perform) plus the aid another action plus taking a 10 to play well... ok, that actually means two followers, but you get my point.

Mewtarthio
2008-01-15, 10:08 AM
Well, I've spoken with my DM and we've (tentatively) worked something out. I use a feat on Land lord but since I have no official source to show him (IE: I don't have the book) he is reducing the ammount of cash I get for the keep to my wealth by level.

Just look it up on Realms Helps (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Landlord,all).

Faithdreamer
2008-01-15, 12:47 PM
**I will keep wriiting more and adding please forgive my messy layout

Gentlemen your sense is less sensible than sense would tell me. Read my pouty lips:

GOLEMS ARE POWERED BY INNOCENT ELEMENTAL SOULS FORCIBLY CHIANED INTO SERVICE BY SOME WIZARD OVERLORD WHO ISN’T CONSIDERATE ENOUGH TO VALUE THEIR INTRINSIC LIBERTIES!

Did everyone hear me? I’m not raising my voice.

So the primary purposes of a castle are governmental/militaristic/cultural. The buildings your character has created are going to reflect who he is and what he values. He is a lawful good, straight-laced heaven stands to be heaven for everyone man. Hope for his people, a man who knows he is a man that strives to be as saintly as he can. Advice:

Some people say you should earn their respect first – then you can be charitable. In different circumstances they may say you’re too weak, too naive or too gullible, you don’t have a backbone, you squander your taxes... earn their respect first and don’t burn holes in your pockets throwing money on them. Endless heaps of gifts could also mean taking pity and your peasants probably find that insulting.
They may revel in an endless holiday and things can slide downhill in your settlements. No one likes things that may come afterward.

The Marshall is a man of high stature now. He has certain obligations, responsibilities and people will expect that he attends to his duties. He’ll have to oversee his government. Defenses are the least of your worries when you have to get a slice of big geographical importance in working order.

Politically he has some things that may favour him. It sounds as if his keep is on the frontier. It is a border site at high risk of some kind of fascist elf attack. He can use that to his advantage and levy tributes of food, materials, workers, soldiers, tools, weapons, gold, livestock and prestige. Anything else he can think up will help.
Your neighbours will also be watching you. They will consider you for diplomatic relations, bribes, assassination and trade relations. Don’t be so strong it gives them an excuse to be worried about your military building strength. Don’t be so weak that any given amount of their strength will crush you utterly. Spy on their capabilities constantly so you know what to expect – these things don’t even have to be military in nature.
Spy on their infrastructure and claim its cultural research. Flatter them. They’re better than you are. Don’t overdo it. Don’t make them want to come crush you, annex your country and turn you into a vassal... more importantly think like a heavenly person. Don’t spy on them like that! You trust them!
Option three – if you like us so much we will educate you and integrate you into our culture. Uh-oh not what I meant!

Don’t make things more or less than they are. If you need something then you NEED it. Don’t try to do things alone. Make connections, forge alliances, cement friendships. Give everyone around you a reason to be your friend or at least reason enough not to have some kind of severe enmity with you.
Think about all the unethical things you’d have to have happen to you and don’t justify it. If it makes you feel bad, dirty, untrustworthy, used, abused, betrayed, taken advantage of, belittled or something don’t do it. Even if it’s ‘for the greater good’ thinking like some kind of evil political ruler vying for position and power doesn’t seem like the way to do things. Don’t be ambitious. That’s not why you’re the master of the stone-hewn fortress. You’re there to show everyone that heaven has fingers and you’re one of them. Help those in genuine need. Let them stand on their own two feet and learn. Whisper in their ear... ‘Grow.’ Then sit back and watch.
Before you try to build civic projects like aqueducts, fountains, forums, markets, terraced fields, hospitals, schools, bathhouses, theatres, statues, gardens or anything else you’ll need to make your government and economy work. Establish fair laws and have the ability to enforce them. Don’t import luxury items until you can afford it. Don’t exploit sections of your population.
Get basic necessities up and running first and don’t probe deeply for a resource some outsider might need. If the nearby mountains had plentiful gold veins and you catch some gold dust in the river to make you sniff for it do not dig right in. There is a Tyrannical Elf Empire that would love to have it. There are nearby governments that are bigger, stronger, deeply rooted and more well-established than you are. They can strip the potential from you and you will not be able to do anything about it in good conscience in the long run.
You might just designate the area royal hunting grounds and say anything on that land belongs to you. That stops prospectors saying they found it before you did.

Keep your people productive. Give them a something to strive for. If your budding kingdom stagnates it won’t last very long. It’s like building a fort out of four walls and a roof. Sure, we have a dirt-floor room and that’s all we want. The idea is to say:

Wouldn’t it be more help if we had a door? ‘Okay we have a door but wind still gets in through the cracks.’ Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we sealed them up and insulated the place? ‘Man it gets toasty!’ Could we build ventilation as well? ‘I hate having yucky feet and seeing worms ugh!’ Say, if we made the building on a framework foundation and build a raised wooden floor?

Defenses
No matter how well you constructed your conventional defenses D&D has plenty of magic to circumvent them easily. There are plenty of mundane ways to do it too.
Things like ‘sleeper holes’ or trenches or ‘holes with things that hurt you in them’ are moot. The same thing can be said for a moat or even a wall. The purpose of having something like that is forcing opponents trying to conduct siege warfare to expend time and resources overcoming and considering them. There are specific circumstances when a trench or moat is useful. It isn’t in the attacker’s best interest to try storming your castle. Even the simplest ones are tough nuts to crack when they’re well built, crewed, defended, considered...
If a leader of some sort has the time to build a good castle they have much spare time to consider how to defend and improve it in whatever way. A new kitchen, a more efficient garrison, a devious trap, better ways to get resources to and from wherever – the common sense imperial elf soldier is going to nod quietly.
He has plenty of time. Years if he needs them. He’ll watch you starve from a distance, fling poison bags over your walls, clog up your smelly courtyard with dead bodies, dig little tunnels underneath you, scout the nearby mountains, dam up your river, cut off your supply routes, build a castle next to your castle, wall your place in, take his mages into the air and drop things in the courtyard... he won’t even have to get over your moat. Doesn’t even think it’s practical to try. He knows you know. Do you know that he knows this is like a weeklong vacation for him?
Are you crazy enough to attack his besieging forces? What’s stopping him from just walking around your castle? What do you have the elves want so much? Why should they worry about relief forces?
Given the timescale siege tactics have elf wizards can literally starve out your air supply if they want to.

Magical protections will be very high on your list of things to do. What are some of the cheapest most convenient ways of getting things done?
Dust of Dryness comes to mind. That would dry up your moat very quickly. Get some yourself Dust of Dryness and steal someone else’s water. Decanters of endless water can help with this. Buy ten of them. Get more if you want. Antimagical field may be more useful than people give it credit for. Know where you can use magic and where you cannot. Permanent Walls of Force...
Know your land intimately. Underground tunnels, cloud cover, seasonal weather... hire scouts and forecasters. Surveyors are good for more than just checking for valuable resources. Send cartographers with them and bring scientists along as well. Catalogue flora and fauna and learn from people who live around the area.

Notes
As to natural geography there is a nearby river and mountains reasonably near by but not close enough to build against. Were near a fairly large forest to the north and east and have an rocky plain to the south and south west which just so happens to be the direction of the tyranical elven empire. Go figure eh?

Espionage
Your Marshall is a kind person who doesn’t want to stoop to underhanded methods when he does things. You don’t have to send scouting parties into enemy territory or even use magical divinations when you do things. Make friends with local people. Send travellers who really are travelling. See what their markets have to offer you. If this is the kind of empire that lets you in without unreasonable hassle send adventurers for a visit. You may even make friends in the Empire but be careful about plants, spies you bring into your own hand. Friends close and enemies closer, friends among your enemies or enemies pretending to be your friend... my head hurts thinking about it.
To be an Empire it must govern multiple species but they don’t exactly have to coexist do they?

Alliances
No matter what happens you won’t be able to do anything alone. You will NEED friends or at least allies with mutually beneficial interests that help you. Try to form alliances with people who tend to have the same beliefs as you do because if they don’t no matter how things work out alliances can be manipulated and exploited given whatever circumstance.

Staff
No matter how much your Marshall may want to he simply cannot do everything alone. Like the necessity of allies you may find it is necessary to have a cabinet, or some sort of Castle Staff your Marshall can delegate duties to.

Things may include a Mathematician, Astrologist, Head Priest, Chamberlain, Seneschal, Stable Master, Blacksmith, Physician, Architect, Foreman, Guard Commander, Knight Commander, Treasurer, Ministers of things (Diplomacy, Agriculture, Warfare), a General, a tactician, the Town Mayor... interview your close allies carefully. Ambition abound even after they’re aware of large scale threats like a Tyrannical Elf Empire(tm). The kind of people that largely agree with what you do. Even if it is dangerous to have an advisor with a completely opposite point of view for fear of whatever its reasonable to fear you may want one to point out holes or to suggest what your rivals are thinking. If he's really the type that hates you he won't be half as kindhearted as you are. He'll pretend to point at a 'flaw' or suggest a course of action that makes you susceptible to what the enemy is really planning. Like a spy who isn't he'll undermine you just because he hates you.

Long-term Planning
Just by having a castle in this tiny town you’re suggesting or at least implying you or the nation nearest to you is expecting to face the threat of the elves at some time. Even if most people don’t consider that it is on the horizon the threat could constantly be weighing on your mind. Large scale Empires expand – conquer or die trying or stagnate into nothing. Maybe not in all cases but in many this isn’t an unreasonable consideration. It’s a tyrannical government isn’t it? Everyone knows it. The elves do not hide it for their own reasons. Eventually the empire will turn a greedy, collective gaze at you. Maybe not while your Marshall lives but since your DM implies it will happen... is diplomacy really something you expect to have results? Tyrannical governments wear on their people because they’re unjust and willing to commit evil deeds to stay in power. Something like that requires military strength or strength at espionage. Spies, assassins, secret police – without something to enforce Imperial will everything would disintegrate in favour of something else. Wouldn’t it?
Do the elves care about you? Are they willing to negotiate? Why should they give a half their minted coin what you want or think?
Who does your Marshall represent and how can you give your words any weight beyond your own tiny community?
In a nutshell they're tyrannical so they don't care about what you do. They don't have to be vicious backroom torturers but a Tyrant is amoral somewhere in the way they govern something and that makes them a Tyrant. Even if they're shining paragons of good simply ruling a culture and showing disrespect to it's oldest traditions makes you a Tyrant.

Jokes?
Ruling a Kingdom is a little like having a swollen head. It starts out big enough for your shoulders but the more you think about it your brain just gets bigger and bigger until you have a monolithic Head of Ages. Then you fall over because you have a really big head. :smalltongue:

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 02:01 PM
Gentlemen your sense is less sensible than sense would tell me. Read my pouty lips:

GOLEMS ARE POWERED BY INNOCENT ELEMENTAL SOULS FORCIBLY CHIANED INTO SERVICE BY SOME WIZARD OVERLORD WHO ISN’T CONSIDERATE ENOUGH TO VALUE THEIR INTRINSIC LIBERTIES!

Did everyone hear me? I’m not raising my voice.

*shrug*. Elementals don't have souls. Nor are elementals necessarily involved. The line is "The animating force for a golem is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator." It's not clear on what this "spirit" is or whether it's intelligent or deserving of our concern. I've never heard any mention in any book or adventure of golems or their creation being evil or good characters being inclined to destroy them for the sake of the bound spirit.

Faithdreamer
2008-01-15, 02:20 PM
Simplicity
You build with lego a block at a time. That’s how they make those really big sets. Why are you building your castle?
Because it’s cool or because you really care about the community around you – this investment could really swallow a lot of your campaign time. Do you plan to oversee the construction yourself or have your retainer do it?
This person had better be very loyal and you better be around or you’re a Lord in name only.

Rooms
Bath, Cistern, Garden, Kitchen, Lavatory, Library, Lord’s Chambers

Great Hall
Historical European castles could have a room now called a GREAT HALL that served a variety of purposes. A modular central chamber residents could use as a dining hall, audience chamber, chapel, fairground, courtroom, bunkhouse and whatever else a large open space could be used for.

Privacy
This will always be an issue unless your castle was drafted with this in mind. That means more walls and doors, corners, rooms... a really big headache. Defending, attacking, building, finding your way around...

Purpose
You won’t be the only one living in this castle of yours. In the event of danger when your people cannot flee you will be expected to provide safe quarters for them for at least a period of time. It will hurt them to see their village burned to cinders, their things stolen and rifled through... they’ll have been raped. But they will be alive. You need to keep things that way and maintain law and order in your Castle at all times. Discipline and drilling for your garrison and even your villagers otherwise everything won’t work. Compulsory conferences in the town square about public safety, classes on basic survival skills, how to knit or throw a stone or a spear, a part time militia to reinforce your garrison and lighten guard duties. This is beneficial for you because it means extra man power. Your garrison or your town guard is like a small military. They can’t be called away in the event of a false emergency so the castle defenses are weakened if the villagers have someone else to look to for help.

Storehouses
These are as critical as anything else you thought up. Underground, above ground, side rooms in your keep, underneath the guard towers, in caches scattered around the landscape, in the catacombs, in nearby villages, at inns on the road... at least enough for your garrison and any guests and your villagers to survive reasonably on. That means a LOT of EVERYTHING. Food, clothes, weapons, ammunition, spare parts, toys, books, chamber pots, blankets, bedding, oil, candles, torches, animals, ropes, water, tools, metal, wood, silk, cotton, linens, herbs, medicines, glass, wax, banners, instruments and all the things that wouldn’t even cross your mind. Spare PEOPLE too. If your astrologist dies you need another one. If your Captain dies the rank structure in your garrison should let everyone know who is in charge of who immediately and without hesitation. If your cook ate a mouldy piece of bread and got sick someone has to cook for morale to even have a chance of surviving. People hate gruel. Soldiers and workmen won’t work for yucky food. Especially if it starts getting mouldy, maggot-ridden, stale, rotten, dried out, pasty, full of smelly feces smeared rats/mice... hungry villagers who don’t have to worry about military discipline start swiping off the top...
You’ll have to worry about building supplies of all sorts.

Interior Temperature and Lighting
People often say Castles were very damp draft-ridden places with bone chilling cold. They were dark and hard on the eyes. You’ll need adequate ventilation, a lot of windows or shutters or lamps... a fireplace in rooms and hallways or a furnace. Tapestries, thick blankets and pillows for insulation and good architecture to spread things everywhere with as little fuss as you can get.

Erosion
Weather over time is constant wear and tear on the beauty and functionality of your very own castle. Rain, wind, giant stones, sappers, flames, magicalysis...
Stone becomes smooth and slick over time. A rainstorm means a new way to have a water slide and certain death for anyone who dares set foot on that stone. Have your architect consider ways to make the elements say YUMMY CASTLES less than they do. For example you might consider having tiered, sloped roofs above your battlements and parapets. Soldiers will slip and fall less. The less everyone injures themselves the happier they are. Castle walls are tall and the wind can blow very hard. Shelter your soldiers from the wind by building parapets that accommodate them. You might even consider having a system kind of like and eaves trough with pipes to funnel all the rain water onto wall so it pools down and makes the stones slick for climbers. You can artificially smooth it too.

Wall Construction
Consider having your walls built to resist high velocity impacts like cannon balls or magically altered giant rocks. I’m not familiar with many things but if you do research it should be relatively easy to find and reproduce. Remember the Walls of Force? If you put those in front of your walls and battlements wherever you please...

Education
Educate yourself but make sure that your Marshall or at least his staff has a good education and better intelligence. This empire has far more of a chance surviving than you have maintaining a small kingdom.

Faithdreamer
2008-01-15, 02:28 PM
Isn't it enough that it COULD be worth your esteemed attention to consider?
Binding an Unwilling Spirit... traditionally the word is used for something that is alive in some way or another. People have said Dead Spirits and Living Spirits. In the spirit of. Even if you're binding something that doesn't have sentience on a human level and is instinctually driven to the point of the most square animal you may conceive... are you less a slaver?

Dogs, cats, cows, birds, mice... do you tear these apart wantonly and build things with them? I've never seen anyone tie any of these up to animate a plastic exoskeleton.

Golems are a gross breach of Goodly Ethics. :smallsigh:
It probably drives them insane. Ever wonder why clay golems go berserk?

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 02:42 PM
Isn't it enough that it COULD be worth your esteemed attention to consider?
Binding an Unwilling Spirit... traditionally the word is used for something that is alive in some way or another. People have said Dead Spirits and Living Spirits. In the spirit of. Even if you're binding something that doesn't have sentience on a human level and is instinctually driven to the point of the most square animal you may conceive... are you less a slaver?

Yes. You're much, much less of a slaver. You're not a slaver at all. If it's not sentient, it can't be enslaved, merely used. By your argument, any farmer or other character owning and directing a beast of burden is a foul slaver.

(People say "in the spirit of the proceedings"... are proceedings therefore living things?)

Mando Knight
2008-01-15, 02:53 PM
People say "in the spirit of the proceedings"... are proceedings therefore living things?

Yes. Proceedings are indeed as intelligent as we are, and thus must not be angered for fear of being doomed to procrastinate for all eternity.:smalltongue:

Faithdreamer
2008-01-15, 03:09 PM
Yes, men are foul slavers and hairy beasts. :smallamused: Proceedings have minds of their own, don’t they?
One minute we’re having a um, harmless debate, and the next we’re criticizing manners of communication with intentions most foul. It’s never sufficiently proven of course so we like to call it espionage. Don’t ask – don’t tell. Conversations have their own unique flair as much as people have themselves.

Please allow me to step aside momentarily. There are records detailing these sorts of problems even the most illogical devil could go by.

EDIT: :smalleek:

My goodness! It seems my Librarian has been neglecting small responsibilities. In the interest of maintaining good royal face please, most wise one, won’t you wonder what happened to the sedate doctor’s patient?
Their brain was burned and chopped apart by most vile of the surgeon’s art. Is he sentient? If he alive? Can we harvest his organs because they’re not... sentient?

That really has nothing to do with Golems and RAW does it?

Since its nature is unclear the possibility alone should be enough to dissuade the goodly wizard from ever creating Golems. I’ve understood the tone of your argument as trying to find a way to justify the use of golems in the face of something that is circumstantial but suggests the act is evil. Just because it isn’t explicitly written down anywhere does that mean you can’t do something? Does it mean you can? Can you listen to the context of the conversation with everything at your disposal? Are you limited to one way of conceiving something?

If we really wanted to find out together we could ask a D&D representative for a clearer interpretation. I can send the e-mail or the message on the WotC boards.

Artanis
2008-01-15, 03:59 PM
*stuff*
Geez, it's a good thing I read this page before just hitting "reply", you've covered a whole ton of stuff, and I would hate to repeat it.

...although I'll probably wind up doing so anyways, since there's so d*** much here :smallwink:


Defenses
*stuff*
A big decision to make is whether or not to bother defending against supernatural (i.e. magic-using or nigh-immortal) threats. It takes a HELL of a lot of effort and (presumably) money to defend any fortification from even a single Wizard, much less a determined army with several. So the OP can go one of two ways with this:

1) Try to build a castle that can withstand a magical assault
2) Don't bother doing so, and just build one that can withstand a mundane (i.e. "more like real life") attack, possibly relying on the PCs themselves to withstand said Wizard.



Now, as to the OP, here's some random ideas that I don't think have been covered. Even if they don't apply to the OP's specific situation, I think they're neat ideas in general in case anybody else runs into this sort of thing.

1) A courthouse with either a permanent Zone of Truth or some way to activate it whenever there's a trial (i.e. an at-will item in the judge's bench). You never have to worry about your subjects - or random accused wanderers - committing perjury ever again!

2) One thing you can try is building a two-part castle linked by a Permanencied Teleportation Circle. The "main" castle can either be a giant blob of fortifications with no attempt to appear normal, or it can try to look normal with many of the important functions so as to mislead enemies. Either way, the first connects to another, ridiculously well-hidden castle somewhere else, thus allowing for more room devoted to vital functions like food storage and personnel quarters than is actually available inside the walls. Plus, if all else fails...hop to castle #2, dispel to teleport circle, and start over.

3) A somewhat less-extreme version of this (and not requiring a high-level Wizard) is to have very, very little storage space in the castle itself, but devote that to portable holes. You could easily keep a year's worth of food for an entire garrison in a single 10x10 room simply by putting food-laden shelves inside several dozen portable holes and sticking those on a shelf in your one, tiny storage room. You don't even need a ladder if you stock the portable holes "sideways" and always put them against a wall instead of the floor. Or use Bags of Holding or Handy Haversacks in a similar manner if you can't afford that many portable holes :smallwink:

4) Hallow covering the entire castle would probably be a good idea, even if you don't expect a zombie attack. If nothing else, it gives you a full year of a handy spell covering the entire castle (Endure Elements for your entire garrison could come in really handy on a snowy winter day, for example).

5) Don't forget Unseen Servants for your Grand Dining Hall (or anywhere else you might find a use for them). I'm sure there's plenty of ways to make them effectively permanent.

6) Ring Gates can make for some...uh..."interesting" lavatory options.

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 04:12 PM
*snip*

If we really wanted to find out together we could ask a D&D representative for a clearer interpretation. I can send the e-mail or the message on the WotC boards.

I don't see that as necessary because there is nothing in the rules to indicate that creating Golems is evil. Seriously. No "spirits" are involved in the creation of undead but apparently that's a heinous act; you'd think they'd have mentioned it.

If you want to query the point, go ahead. I'd be interested to see what clarification WotC might offer. But to be honest, I don't see it as necessary, and your argument seems more than a little unfocused to me. Picking out one possibly relevant point, you say that we shouldn't create golems because we don't know whether it's binding an intelligent being. But the fact that we as players are faced with ambiguous rules doesn't mean the characters don't know whether their actions are morally Evil. Presumably if a DM wants golem creation to be an Evil act in his games he'll tell the player and it'll be standard arcane knowledge.