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Crow
2008-01-13, 06:02 PM
For whatever reason, one of my players who is in the situation of making a new character, has decided to play the Trumpet Archon monster class from Savage Species. I have no idea why this player, who plays like a robotic crossbreed of Judge Dredd and Brick from "Anchorman", decides he should always be some paragon of virtue...but I digress.

I gave it a good look over, and considering that this guy is going to be starting at level 1, this class looks like it sucks horribly. Is he supposed to be picking up a normal player class to stack with the monster class or what? Because crap, seriously...just terrible. That and he can never be raised...sheesh.

Has anyone given these monster classes a chance in real gameplay? If so, I would like to hear your experiences.

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-13, 06:23 PM
Umm.. what's so terrible about it? I mean, you get Monk saves, natural armor, rogue skill points, a free feat, and 1 BAB right to start. At level 2 you gain fly speed, +2 Wisdom, and start casting as a 4th level cleric. That's not exactly very bad for a first/second level character.

I can see what you mean down the line, but thats the problem with playing a Level Adjusted Monster. They all kinda suck compared to PC races of their same ECL.

Also, isn't it impossible to permanently kill an outsider if you aren't on it's plane of origin when you do the killing? Or does that just apply to fiends and not celestials...? Or possibly I am thinking of the Demon Lords and Archdevils? In any case, you can still be ressurected, it just takes even more powerful magic than usual.

The_Snark
2008-01-13, 06:29 PM
At low levels, he'll be overpowered. He casts as a cleric of a level higher than a normal-race cleric would be able to, and gets full base attack, all good saves, and lots of skills to boot. They don't lose very many hit die near the beginning, either.

Not to mention an early fly speed, bonuses to stats like Strength and Wisdom, and a free magic weapon (not a very good one, but magic is sometimes hard to come across).

At higher levels, he will fall behind, as his hit die (and thus cleric spellcasting) falls behind. By level 20, you're right, he'll be quite underpowered.

Several of the celestial classes tend to be front-loaded like this, but especially the ghaele and the trumpet archon.

mabriss lethe
2008-01-13, 11:36 PM
Tangent:

I've been toying for the past few days with the Wight monster class from libris mortis. Much shorter, (8 levels 4 HD, good selection of gimmicks, access to neato stuff.)from what I can tell, a lot more compatible with the average level of play than what I remember from seeing the trumpet archon. If anything it suffers from the exact opposite of the Archon. You start out really gimped, build up some strength over the course of the next few levels, then everything cool about the class is dumped on you at the last level. Thankfully, you can then proceed into a normal class, pretty much without restriction. and unlike other monster classes, the undead monster classes allow you to begin as a normal race/class, then add levels of undead then continue.

/tangent

If the player is dead set on playing a monster class, you might think about nudging him toward one of the monsters that doesn't eat up an entire 20 level progression. He'd probably have more fun in the long run.

Jade_Tarem
2008-01-14, 03:35 AM
I've played a number of monster classes. My favorite so far was Lantern Archon Sorcerer.

You can't take monster classes and expect them to do the work for you. Making a monster character that will be as good as the other guys in the group tends to be not only tough but restrictive. You need to have in mind what you want to play - starting not with the specific monster but with the general concept.

After you have the concept, start looking at monsters that might fit it. Remember to keep an open mind, and remember that there may be ways to make (-) LA creatures into monster characters, although anything with more than 12 or so HD is probably out of the question. Your guy wants to play a trumpet archon, but there are other, similar, more combat-oriented archons out there (which from your colorful description sounds like it would be more appealing to him). Also, you can put a celestial or half-celestial template on numerous large humanoid things for an interesting effect. Half Celestial Phoelarch is a fun one (ECL 11). It gets you this Fire Angel thing.

Once you find your monster, calculate the ECL (It's HitDice + LevelAdjustment, for those of you new to this). If it has no ECL, look at the Savage Species Guide's system for generating one, and don't be surprised if you find that something that was going to be a badass is actually going to eat up 20+ levels. Dragons come to mind.

When that's done, start on your build. The trick is to build to your strengths, while at the same time covering your weaknesses. For instance, if you end up with something that's going to gobble up a ton of levels, chances are it has a number of HD, but fewer HD than it's level. Melee classes tend to work well with such creatures, as they offer large HD to counter the disadvantage of having fewer HD (don't fret, though, usually such creatures have an amazing CON score).

Also, (and this is an important one) try to avoid ending up with half a caster. Sometimes players forget that unless it specifically states otherwise, class caster levels and racial caster levels don't stack. In fact, I can only come up with one creature off the top of my head where it does - the rhakshasa. This means that monsters and casters rarely are found as the same character. Usually at high levels you find yourself in a support/tank role, and it's alright if you're ok with that. Just don't think that your Astral Deva is going to be the main divine caster for the group.

That's about all I can think of. I realize that I've rambled on a long time without directly answering your question, so I've bolded the short answer below:

For the Trumpet Archon specifically: yes, it will pale in comparison to most 20 level builds, especially ones that include prestige classes. The problem is, as some have posted before, in the 20 level progression involved. Usually a better idea is to mix and match class and race to achieve a powerful combo, or to find a unique way to fill a requirement.

Here's an example of my monster building. Remeber the Lantern Archon?

I started out wanting to play a free-spirited kind of arcane caster, with more than the average touch of holy. I also wanted to see if I could give it some pizzaz. That's why I started looking through the archons, and that's when Lantern Archon caught my eye. With a 1 HD creature, you can swap out the HD for the first HD of a class, which is why Human Fighter is a 1 HD creature, ECL 1 - the Fighters d10 replaces the Humanoid d8. The short version is that I wouldn't lose any spell progression.

Now, Lantern Archon has a (-) level adjustment, meaning it was never really meant to be played as a character. However, the SSG offers ways around this if you really want to give it a go. I thought over various ways to make it work, but kept getting tripped up on two things:

1. Strength -10.
2. NO FREAKIN' HANDS!
3. Intelligence -4.

Well, all melee classes are obviously out. So are weapon based classes. That leaves casters - Druid, Wizard, Cleric, and Sorcerer. I want to be arcane, so that leaves wizard and sorcerer. This is the restrictiveness I was talking about.

To fix this, I needed to burn two feats - surrogate spellcasting and eschew materials. Now I can cast a spell without humanoid features (I guess he's bobbing in the air or something?) But I still can't manage a spell book (or, coincidentally, any spell with a material or focus cost higher than one gp) and an INT -4 creature doesn't make a good wizard anyhow. That leaves Sorcerer. The rest was just character building.

The problem is that so much lies on DM interpretation, or, as it usually works out, DM/Player debate/bargaining. I can offer a techincal breakdown for why Lantern Archon is an LA 0. In reallity, however, it acid tests somewhat higher than that.

You see, Lantern Archon Sorcerer's drawbacks don't outwiegh it's strengths. It's a good class/species combination. In the end, I ended up promising not to use the *at will teleport without error* until the party was high enough in levels that it wasn't such a huge advantage. This worked out ok and I ended up about on par with the party. I was far more durable but a little more restricted than the average sorcerer.

And here's a list of monsters I've seen played, along with classes:

Me:

Air Elemental (Wu Jen, Air Savant) (Could turn into a colossal intelligent tornado)

Awakened Giant Eagle (Fighter)

Dragon (Bronze)
Dragon (Gold)
Dragon (Red)(Cleric)

Drow (Fighter)
Drow (Warblade)

Ghost Eladrin (Paladin)(May not be legal)

Half Celestial Human (Paladin)

Half Celestial Elf (Support Cleric)

Half Celestial Phoelarch [Gestalt Sorcerer/Paladin/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil/Anointed Knight/Kensai (epic campaign)]

Half Celestial Awakened Phoera (Set your phaser to twink!)(Paladin/Anointed Knight)

Lantern Archon (Sorcerer, also somethimes IOTSFV)
Lantern Archon (Cleric)

Minotaur (Fighter)(Mounted Combat - Mastodon!)

Treant (Monk)(Enlarged to Gargantuan Size)

Voidwraith (Cleric/Rogue)(This was a fun one)

Weretiger (Fighter)
Werewolf (Ranger)


Others:

Aasimar (Paladin)

Astral Deva (Fighter - Epic Campaign)

Awakened Monkey (Druid)
Awakened Monkey (Rogue)

Death Knight (Fighter)

Deathless Human (?)

Dragon (Silver)

Drow (Wizard)
Drow (Cleric)

Half Dragon (Black) Half Orc (Barbarian)
Half Dragon(Red) Troll (Fighter)
Half Dragon(Green) Troll (Fighter)

Half Fiend (Ranger)

Lich (Wizard)
Lich (Warmage)

Mind Flayer (Wizard)
Mind Flayer (Psion)
Mind Flayer (Twinkalicious alternate subrace/class combo thing)

Pixie (Ranger)
Pixie (Rogue)
Pixie (Sorcerer)

Succubus (Sorcerer)

Tiefling (Bard)

Trumpet Archon (Paladin - Guy didn't understant the ECL system)

Werebear (Barbarian)
Wereboar (Barbarian)
Werepanther (Ranger)
Weretiger (Ranger)
Werewolf (Ranger)


That list went on longer than I expected. Suffice to say, I've had a blast with monster classes. My favorites were the Lantern Archon (already explained), the Red Dragon (a comical type evil character), the Voidwraith (it has an attack completely unique in all DnD), and the Half Celesitial Phoelarch (for sheer badassery). The Treant and Air Elemental were fun just for the amazing feats of strength I could pull off (either could rip a purple worm out of the ground and throw it!)

Hope some of this helps.

Stephen_E
2008-01-14, 05:45 AM
Trumpet Archon is one of the stronger early (1-10) monster builds.

Regardless I'd suggest you give a flat (no stat bonus) 2 skill points and 2 hit points for each non HD level, and allow him to take standard class levels, but never have more class levels than Trumpet Archon levels (at least not until he's completed his Trumpet Archon levels, which isn't likely to happen).

If you want to give him the possibility of entering prestige classes with those non-Trumpet Archon levels I'd further suggest you allow him to skip one prereq for every 3 Racial level total - in this case 7 prereq, but no more than 1 per racial level actually taken, i.e after taking 5 Racial levels he can choose 5 feats, class abilitys, spell casting level, and enter prestige classes as if he had those abilities (note: If the ability to cast 3rd lev Arcane spells was required that would take 3 slots - 1st, 2nd & 3rd). This is only if you want to give him some flexibility options as he gets higher levels.

Your description of the player makes me think the race will suit his playing style.

Stephen

Zain_Thorngallow
2008-01-14, 02:31 PM
I am in a group actually in the midst of a just-about-epic Savage Species campaign. (We've all just reached ECL 20 last session, in fact.)

The DM started us at ECL 5, and required at least three or more Level Adjustment levels in the mix. In exchange, we got very, very generous stat rolling rules... and needed them, considering how painful LA can be.

The Monster Campaign has been very, very interesting... the DM has run it well, though had to massage the encounters somewhat to keep from us all dying right off the bat at the start... and then massage things in the other direction mid-way through to keep us from completely overwhelming our opponents. Nearing epic, things have leveled back to us being completely in terror for our lives... but that's epic so that's to be expected. :smallwink:

A Monster Campaign is difficult to run or play, but can be very rewarding. What the characters give up in Hit Dice are made up with lots-and-lots of powers. These powers can vary from "useless" to "potentially game-breaking"... but put enough of them together, and chances are the party can pull some sort of rabbit out of their collective hats to deal with any circumstance.

As for mixing monster characters with normal +0 LA races? It could be tough to run, yes... it really depends on the abilities. The high LA creature *must* give a substantial Con boost and/or possess substantial defensive abilities (such as continuous Greater Invisibility or Damage Reduction), or it'll be tissue paper compared to the rest of the party and its challenges. Its lack of Hit Dice will make spells whose effects depend on such particularly dangerous. (Such as Dictum, Holy Word, etc.)

If the creature is an Outsider, the DM should finagle it so the Player's creature is given the Native subtype. This should permit conventional Resurrection to work... or, at least, that's how our DM rules it. (If for no other reason then expediency.)

As for additional thoughts / experiences, the following is our party, and how they generally faired... perhaps such might assist predicting how things might go with your player's potential Trumpet Archon character?

- LG Half-Ogre (3.0 version) + Half-Dragon Paladin (+4 LA)
A powerhouse... massive strength that does a number with a two-hander, particularly after taking the Charging Smite alternate class feature. Excellent Con. Natural armour equivalent to full-plate. Reach. No stat penalties except to Dex. Can Fly, and in fact, carry the party several times over while in Full Plate. To start, he was in constant risk of death until he gained some hit dice under his belt. Later on, a slow but steady meat-shield / head-thumper / diplomancer.

- LN Feral, Winged, Tiefling Monk (+4 LA)
One of the most dangerous Monks I've ever seen. Claws the size of longswords, perfect flight and maneuverability, fast healing, near-epic Touch AC. Early on, like the Paladin, lived in constant fear of death, except for being almost impossible to hit, and with his fast healing only criticals taking him from "living" to "dead" in a single blow were of great concern. Later on, his hasted, flaming-fist Flurry/Flurry/Flurry/Flurry/Flurry/Claw/Claw full attack routine became the stuff of nightmares.

- CG Ghaele (+10 LA spread out over a 20 level progression)
Probably the best +10 LA creature a party can have. 14th level Cleric. Cure Light Wounds at will, ensuring that the party, given any time whatsoever, is always at 100% health. Prismatic Spray, which is always useful, and can Fly insanely fast in Incorporeal Globe form (though our DM rules her equipment can not wild-shape into her alternate form, which limits its usefulness somewhat) Oddly enough, she started with the most hit dice out of anyone in the party, as the Savage Species progression has the first five being HD and LA only occurring regularly thereafter. Early on, she was unstoppable. Mid-way, she was extremely solid. Later, as the creature spell resistance started to get potent, her stalled caster level and minimal hit dice started to cause some suffering, and the inability to cast True Resurrection poses a difficulty. Her 20' radius empowered Protection from Evil + Globe of Minor Invulnerability aura is a *life-saver*.

- CN Pseudodragon Rogue / Non-evil Assassin (+3 LA, 2 Racial HD)
Darned near one of the best Rogue race ever, as far as I can tell. With the Tiny size, and the natural camouflage, it is almost impossible to spot. Its spell resistance has saved its life more times then I can recall, though obviously the later on the campaign goes the less this has been the case. The sleep poison sting, early on, has one-shotted enemies on many, many occasions. Later on... less so. Gloves of Man or a Mouth Pick are a requisite, as the inability to do a proper flanking full attack without manufactured weapons becomes a liability. Telepathy allows completely silent party communication during sneaking. The Pseudodragon started strong and stayed strong the whole way through.


Anyway, that's about that, I think! Hopefully the long rambling missive above proves of some insight, Crow? :smallsmile:

Crow
2008-01-14, 08:02 PM
Thanks for all the replies. As an update, he has decided to go with the Hound Archon now.

The_Snark
2008-01-14, 08:21 PM
Hound Archon is a bit more manageable, although they don't have much of a focus. They're a bit lacking in Strength (compared to their level adjustment) to make good melee characters, and don't have any other good offensive abilities, which can leave them in a bit of a bind. They're also a bit light on HP and Con, but then again they have several defensive abilities, so they're all right there.

If it had a progression, I would reccomend the Justice Archon (MMIV) as a very solid archon choice. Same HD and LA as the hound archon, but their abilities work much better for a player character. Easily playable in a standard party; they make solid melee characters (pretty good Strength, very good Con, fun special ability for dealing damage, proficiency with armor, and of course more mobility than almost any other melee character, between flight and mobility).

And you get to be a living incarnation of righteous fury. Not much more you can ask from a playable monster.

Crow
2008-01-14, 08:41 PM
I havn't gotten a chance to look at the Hound Archon class progression yet (not my book). He says it is like a cleric but with a little more offense. My first thought was something along the lines of "Why would a cleric need more offense?", but whatever. from the sounds of it, it seems like the monstrous classes in Savage Species are front-loaded a little, but over the course of campaign will fall behind...which is fine by me.

The last thing I need from this player is more "righteous" fury, so I am fearing how he plays the hound archon. But that is a player issue rather than a game issue. Still, I wish he hadn't scrapped his down-to-earth human fighter idea.

Why are the players who want to play angels always the biggest bastards?

(to all forum-goers, feel free to ignore my completely baseless accusation. It was directed at none other than the specific player in question...I know you're reading...bastard.)

The_Snark
2008-01-14, 08:49 PM
Hound Archon? It's not at all like a cleric, really. It doesn't have spells. At all.

More like a fighter without as much base attack/HP, who gets ability bonuses and occasional special abilities in place of feats. Not one of the stronger monster classes, really.

(Ouch. Does he usually play self-serving characters?)

Zain_Thorngallow
2008-01-15, 12:39 AM
Why are the players who want to play angels always the biggest bastards?


Bastard Angels? Perish the thought!

*cough*Lucifer*cough*

... or...

*cough*Asmodeus*cough* :smallsmile:

Seriously, there is a long and storied history involving the consequences of being, as you say, a "righteous" angelic character. Are you one of those types who finds Paladin fall-from-graces thematically entertaining? (As a Paladin player, I certainly hope the answer to that is "no!", but that's just me. :smallwink: ) Well, imagine the story potential inherent in the sort of fall you could do to an Angel.

The Devils were once Angels too (or, some of them were at least, the big boss man included...) and I'm sure they would find quite the interest in helping out... for purely altruistic reasons, of course... such a "kindred spirit". :smallsmile:

nospherax
2008-02-13, 10:39 AM
Hi every one

Astral Deva, i think, i a powerfull Monster. Add 2-4 level of paladin and he become immune to magic.

Base Save in MM + holy grace (+10 Bonus to Char) + Aura
fort 14+5+4=23
Ref 12+5+4=21
Will 12+5+4=21

...and player have alway greater stat!! Imagine if you start with 16 in charisma..

How many Epic Figther of 23 level was immune to cold, electricity, petrification, fear, disease, mind control (aura) DR/Evil, save like hell, Natural armor, fly speed ect... Same attack bonus and hp whit the +8 bonus in const and +12 str.


Have a nice Day
-Sorry for my english, i am french

*Some people are like Slinkies. They're really good for nothing. But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.*