narutooo!!!!!

[sune]

so ya the title explains it all... just post your comments on naruto...

[WarriorTribble]

It's an above average shounen series. But I'll never forgive the mangaka for his one year of "chase Sasuke" arc.

[sune]

i have to agree, it was really lame how much time they spent on chasing sasuke... i like shippudin more, much more intensity, also naruto finally asks sukura out (lol failure):smallbiggrin:

[Prophaniti]

I have never enjoyed any part of the show that I've so far seen. It has all the elements of anime that I don't like and none of the ones I do.

It does make a decent fighter game, though. I rather enjoyed the Gamecube version.

[sune]

i like the game, but on a scale of 1-10 ide give it a 5

[WarriorTribble]

Huh, I swore Naruto was gay. I gotta lay off the fangirls...

[Renegade Paladin]

Naruto must die.

[Guts]

As WT said, it's an above average shonen series, but the plot for me has lost a lot of its steam, especially the manga chapters released last year; the main character is still annoying and too impulsive in cases where he should take his time, many of the deaths of both heroes and villains were poorly handled and lose any emotional value I can attach to them. I also did not like what happened to Sai. It's one thing to make him to relate to why Naruto is (almost stupidly) hellbent to 'rescue' Sasuke but the author didn't need to make him jump on the 'starry eyed admire at Naruto' wagon. A quiet, rational 'anti-Naruto' voice would have made the team dynamics more interesting. The fighting is still pretty godd, though there are a few plotholes and plot induced stupidity here and there.

[WarriorTribble]

I thought everyone was an antiNaruto that's what made him "special." Btw, what plot holes are there? I haven't been reading the chapters very closely. Guess Naruto being such a moron compared to everyone else is one...

[Volug]

Neji Hyuga owns you.:smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

The only thing I DON'T like about the series, is the main character. He sucks. Make a season where it revolves around a Hyuga:smalltongue:

Hyuga's rock:smallbiggrin: :smallcool:

[Raistlin1040]

I like it, but there's too many stupid parts. I prefer Death Note and Bleach.

[Kojiro Kakita]

Give me Basilisk over naruto for ninja action.
But yeah, naruto is really losing steam, and if that interview with the mangaka is correct, we still have quite a bit to go with Sasuke. Another half a year to a year.

[Verruckt]

I like it, but there's too many stupid parts. I prefer Death Note and Bleach.

You don't like a crappy immature anime meant for 16 year old boys and prefer another crappy anime meant for 16 year old boys and one meant for 16 year old girls with self esteem issues?


sorry

My personal tastes express themselves as hostility, apologies. More to the point though, what is the appeal of the naruto dbz bleach archetype of of anime? (that being the 5 episode long fighting scenes type) I've always preffered giant robot myself, especially stuff like 08th MS team where there is a marked lack of angst ridden teenage boys.

(as a side note if anyone can find more GR type anime sans the whining let me know)

anyway those are my rambling incoherent thoughts :smallsmile:

[EvilElitest]

Naruto must die.

Possible the worst main character i've ever seen, with the possible exception of Sora. What kind of ninja were orange


Also we have the wanna be, ineffective loner king and the girl who doesn't do anything. god



You don't like a crappy immature anime meant for 16 year old boys and prefer another crappy anime meant for 16 year old boys and one meant for 16 year old girls with self esteem issues?
Bleach isn't great, but it at least tries, you can tell the writer is trying to make a good manga
Death note is sick, can't compare. One main character is an immature little kid who can't focuse, the other is a ruthless, sociopathic zealot with a god complex.

from
EE

[LordVader]

*raises scope to eye*
*zooms in on Naruto's head*
*pulls trigger*

God, I hate this show. Now, I've only seen the English version, and supposedly the Japanese one is better.

But still. The entire basic premise behind the series is flawed. Ninjas =/= orange jumpsuits! Gaaah!

[Alex Kidd]

You don't like a crappy immature anime meant for 16 year old boys and prefer another crappy anime meant for 16 year old boys and one meant for 16 year old girls with self esteem issues?


sorry

My personal tastes express themselves as hostility, apologies. More to the point though, what is the appeal of the naruto dbz bleach archetype of of anime? (that being the 5 episode long fighting scenes type) I've always preffered giant robot myself, especially stuff like 08th MS team where there is a marked lack of angst ridden teenage boys.


I somewhat agree with you hence why I prefer One Piece of the big shonen anime. Also on non-whiny Giant Robot anim...ation. Try Megas XLR.

Also Bleach is not great, the artist seems to have gotten bored and decided to repeat the SS arc in Hueco Mondo. I hate copypasta.

[BRC]

I have only seen a little(only the english version and only at friends houses), and I maintain that it is okay provided you realize that A, they are not ninjas they are wizard acrobats. Ninjas don't wear orange jumpsuits and throw fireballs. and B don't listen to naturo's voice.
At my school there are a few major Naurto fanboys, at one point one tried to convince me that what they do isn't magic. It was almost amusingly pathetic.

[Kojiro Kakita]

Thinks of a way to defend shounen action shows........fails miserably
Current Shounen Shows I am watching:
Minami-ke
Spice and Wolf
Zoku Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei
Clannad
and of course
Shakugan no Shana

Best shows are the ones that only last one to two season at max
(anime season is 12 episdoes)

[WarriorTribble]

You don't like a crappy immature anime meant for 16 year old boys and prefer another crappy anime meant for 16 year old boys and one meant for 16 year old girls with self esteem issuesWell it's was really meant for 10 year old boys, and... lets not talk about the girls who like it lest we awaken the yaoi fandom.

And... Naruto is tolerable only in manga form. His anime voice (any version) is... painful at best.

[Tengu]

I liked the first three seasons of Naruto, up to the point of Third Hokage dying - after that, it went downhill, still not bad though up until the whole "chase after Sasuke" thing started, when it started to get boring. I prefer Bleach in the "unending shonen" department, and even it was slightly ruined for me when I compared it to Avatar, which is an anime with the best fight choreography I've ever seen, and is not even made in Japan.

[WarriorTribble]

You don't like a crappy immature anime meant for 16 year old boys and prefer another crappy anime meant for 16 year old boys and one meant for 16 year old girls with self esteem issues?Well it's more for 10 year old boys, and lets not talk about the girls lest we invoke the yaoi fandom, but oddly I think you got the age right there.

Incidentally I only read the manga since I can't stand the Naruto voice... any of them.

[EvilElitest]

I liked the first three seasons of Naruto, up to the point of Third Hokage dying - after that, it went downhill, still not bad though up until the whole "chase after Sasuke" thing started, when it started to get boring. I prefer Bleach in the "unending shonen" department, and even it was slightly ruined for me when I compared it to Avatar, which is an anime with the best fight choreography I've ever seen, and is not even made in Japan.

totally seconded, i hate the fact everyone assumes Americans can't make good shows
from
EE

[Raistlin1040]

Uggh. Can't stand Avatar. It annoys me. I'm not sure why, but it just isn't all that good in my mind.

Anyway, I like Bleach because 1) Ichigo is a WAYYY better main character than Naruto, and 2) It's pretty good for an anime.

Death Note is fantastic. It's a brilliant manga. Too bad the anime is only like 37 episodes long.

[EvilElitest]

Uggh. Can't stand Avatar. It annoys me. I'm not sure why, but it just isn't all that good in my mind.

Anyway, I like Bleach because 1) Ichigo is a WAYYY better main character than Naruto, and 2) It's pretty good for an anime.

Death Note is fantastic. It's a brilliant manga. Too bad the anime is only like 37 episodes long.

I quite like avatar, puts Naurto to shame

Death note was a great manga, and the first 26 eposides were great, but after that ug, i hate near. Accully, the second half of the manga as well.
from
EE

[WarriorTribble]

totally seconded, i hate the fact everyone assumes Americans can't make good shows
from
EEI feel like some old geezer when I have to mention Batman: The Animated Series, and Gargoyles when people say that.

[Alex Kidd]

I feel like some old geezer when I have to mention Batman: The Animated Series, and Gargoyles when people say that.


Agreed. Never got into Gargoyles, but Batman TAS ruled. Mark Hamil is the best villain VA ever. Which is another reason Avatar rules(Hamil is the Firelord). And indeed Avatar does put Naruto to shame. Really it puts pretty much most anime and most normal shows to shame. There aren't many shows that can completely **** conventions and pull off something as stunningly unusual and well done as the season 2 finale.

[Talkkno]

I quite like avatar, puts Naurto to shame
*Activating flame shield.* :smalltongue:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/talkkno/Coincidence___or_NOT__by_Booter_Fre.gif

[hanzo66]

I stopped caring about Naruto a long time ago. I still do an RP based on the setting (though I play a Bard for satirical reasons) and I am familiar with the IGN board. At the most I'll look on Wikipedia once in a while to see what's new with the series.

Also that picture makes me think of this...

http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs11/i/2006/240/e/9/Akatsuki____henchmen___80_by_fez_worshiper.png

[BizzaroStormy]

Your stereotypical ninja dresses in all black, says nothing, and kills people within 3 seconds. This would make the show very boring. Ninjas dont have epic battles, they sneak around until one se the other, a knife is thrown, and then its over.

The 1 year finding-sasuke arc was filler to give the manga writers time to get the manga far enough in front of the anime. Just skip it and watch the shippuden episodes. None of the episodes affect the main story line.

Death Note was ok but finished horribly. Light is found out and is killed by Ryuk.

Bleach is alright, I honestly cannot see what possible problems can be found.

As for american cartoons, most are geared towards the 6-12 year-olds. After that, kids are expected to move up to sitcoms, reality shows and the like. Japanese toons are geared for anywhere from 6-18+ if you know what I mean.

When Naruto came over here, it was butchered by the censors, given horrible voice actors, and marketed to 10 year-olds. (I personally would have preferred subtitled japanese).

[averagejoe]

*Activating flame shield.* :smalltongue:

Yeah, but at least in avatar the girl is effectual, and the useless one provides thinking and comic relief.

Naruto is really, really bad. And stupid. That is all.

[Alex Kidd]

When Naruto came over here, it was butchered by the censors, given horrible voice actors, and marketed to 10 year-olds. (I personally would have preferred subtitled japanese).

What? Naruto barely got censored at all. There's still most of the blood, there's death and Jiraiya is still a pervert. The only major censor I've seen was making it that Rock Lee didn't drink alcohol to get super powers. Which was NEVER going to fly. On the VA, Naruto's the only bad one, some are mediocre, but he's the only one that's really bad.
Unless you're talking bout the UK dub, then yeah that would shame even 4Kids on the censoring. Or the German dub, but that's almost an Abridged series it's so ridiculously bowldlerized.


..

http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs11/i/2006/240/e/9/Akatsuki____henchmen___80_by_fez_worshiper.png

GO TEAM VENTURE!

[Hallavast]

:smallsigh:

On Naruto:

Can't stand the genre to which it belongs.

Can't comprehend the medium to which it belongs.

Don't get the culture behind it.

Can't stand any of the main characters (too anoying).

Disturbed by fans/cosplayers that rave about it.

Too many oddities and nonsequitor events explained by "I'm a ninja".

Believe it!

[Kay]

It's about some dude trying to be a ninja while wearing an orange jumpsuit.
That's bad enough.
Also, the voice acting and catchphrase suck. Ugh.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Heh...yeah...there are parts of the anime (especially the american one) that blow goats...but overall I like the series. Sakura becomes useful in Shippuden!

That panel on Avatar VS. Naruto was awesome...

People shouldn't knock American cartoons totally though...man..I'm gonna get called real old...Yes, Gargoyles was very good...and so was Batman: TAS...but the same team also did Superman, then Justice League and Justice League Unlimited. All good series with the justice league shows really building on each other all seasons. Even Batman Beyond was good. But that isn't all for american shows...oh no...

Go back a bit further and you get Reboot, quirky, but in the later seasons it got really good and nicely twisted in wierd ways. the number of pop culture jokes alone was enough to keep even adults interested. Even further back, we had the Starship Troopers inspired Exosquad. Though it never went past the one mega season (51 episodes or so) it was not your average kid show. Epic story and lots of intrigue.

But for shear entertainment value...there was also the disney cartoons in the 90's. Darkwing duck, Ducktales, Talespin, and Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers...kid friendly and really funny. If Ducktales and Darkwing were still on, I'd watch them with my little one. For non Disney, there was Alvin and the Chipmunks and the followup series 'Chipmunks go to the movies'. Both well done episodic and funny as hell.

What am I forgetting...oh yeah...Spiderman...that was awesome. And of course...the show that launched a HUGE empire...Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Not quite the episodic grand tale most of the time, but still a good show.

Japan has had more shows that tell a larger story, and most of the time they have good dynamic characters that are well developed...but you can find good American cartoons too. Perhaps not as sophisticated as some of the Anime, but still highly entertaining.

[Callos_DeTerran]

My feelings on Naruto are fairly well known among those I talk with in the Gaming Forums. Hell, I run three Naruto d20 games, obviously I'm a fan of the show. Am I a fan of Naruto? Not in particular, he has his moments but I've always liked villains more anyway and Naruto has some interesting ones....then theres the really bad ones too but I take the good with the bad.

EDIT: Nah...they still seemed to censor the important blood bits (like when they use it to show a painful injury it's usually not there, just the cough that goes with it. And the swearing is gone. Drunken fist became Loopy Fist (4kids, you shall pay for that). I have to admit I can't wait to see how the censor butchers Hidan...if he's just not taken out entirely.

[Eita]

At least be glad that 4Kids doesn't have One Piece anymore.

[Rogue 7]

Yeah, but at least in avatar the girl is effectual, and the useless one provides thinking and comic relief.

Naruto is really, really bad. And stupid. That is all.

Clearly, you have not watched Sakura's fight with Sasori.

I like the series. I don't watch it for deep storylines or moving emotional scenes- though it does that decently. I watch it for the crazy fighting scenes. Consider one scene in the above fight with Sasori- the enemy is wielding 100 puppets to crazy old sand lady's 10. One of these puppets starts spinning the other like a mace and chain, and this other one's head turns into a buzzsaw that rips through these puppets like tissue paper. That, to my eternally 14-year-old heart, is pure awesome. It's fun. Plain and simple, it's fun. I don't care, really about the main characters. My favorite guy on the show is probably Shikamaru. I don't dislike Naruto or Sakura, and I do in fact dislike Sasuke, but that doesn't bother me enough to stop watching- I watch it for the action scenes and the cool ways people think up to kill each other. That's it. You don't try to find any more depth in it, except in how they do go about said killing.

[Elidyr]

Clearly, you have not watched Sakura's fight with Sasori.

I like the series. I don't watch it for deep storylines or moving emotional scenes- though it does that decently. I watch it for the crazy fighting scenes. Consider one scene in the above fight with Sasori- the enemy is wielding 100 puppets to crazy old sand lady's 10. One of these puppets starts spinning the other like a mace and chain, and this other one's head turns into a buzzsaw that rips through these puppets like tissue paper. That, to my eternally 14-year-old heart, is pure awesome. It's fun. Plain and simple, it's fun. I don't care, really about the main characters. My favorite guy on the show is probably Shikamaru. I don't dislike Naruto or Sakura, and I do in fact dislike Sasuke, but that doesn't bother me enough to stop watching- I watch it for the action scenes and the cool ways people think up to kill each other. That's it. You don't try to find any more depth in it, except in how they do go about said killing.

Too bad the fight scenes are few and far in between, mostly prolonged by ''dramatic'' camera zooms, stills, flashbacks, mid fight expositions lasting several episodes and random power ups that make little sense.

Naruto is in a bad need of editing.

[tyckspoon]

I liked the first three seasons of Naruto, up to the point of Third Hokage dying - after that, it went downhill, still not bad though up until the whole "chase after Sasuke" thing started, when it started to get boring. I prefer Bleach in the "unending shonen" department, and even it was slightly ruined for me when I compared it to Avatar, which is an anime with the best fight choreography I've ever seen, and is not even made in Japan.

I read this and went "Third season? That can't be right, the Third dies before then.." and then I stopped and counted it up and remembered how freaking overextended Naruto actually is when you're not following it by way of continuous manga compilations.

I've been following Naruto mostly to watch a trainwreck since around the second half of the story (Shippuden/post time-jump). I think Kishimoto's lost the inspiration he had in the start of the series; the more novel ideas he was using (not that there were all that many to start with, really) have worn out and now it's stuck in a Dragonball rut. I still have a small shred of impossible hope that somebody is going to kill Sasuke and the story will take a turn into somewhere that couldn't be predicted ten chapters ahead, but.. Dragonball. It's not gonna happen.

[BizzaroStormy]

Dragonball was the same thing over and over.

[1] BBEG(s) is/are identified
[2] Hero(s) gets their **** ruined
[3] Hero gets big-ass power boost
[4] BBEG(s) get their **** ruined
[5] Repeat process

[Fuzzy_Juan]

From what I can see, Sauske is going to deal with his brother one way or another...

From the last Manga, it seems that Sauske has won...It also seems that with certian revelations, Sauske will team up with the leaf village again and maybe even rejoin team 7. More likely while he will work with them again, it will be as an 'anti-hero'...semi evil, out to do 'good' more for revenge than for anything else.

Since Uchiha Madara has been revealed as the leader of Akatsuki (or however it is spelled)...it seems clear Sauske will now focus on him. I am fairly curious about the connection to the nine-tails though...The nine-tails knew Uchiha Madara...I also heard a rumor that Madara is the one who sicked the nine-tails on Konoha.

It would be very typical for the Sons of the one who defeated the beast and the one who unleashed the beast were to work together...one because it is right, the other to reclaim their honor/revenge...you know how it goes.

Now...the real 'shocker'...well, not shocker really, is that Naruto is the son of the 4th...and that it was a secret kept from the villiage...noone knew...except a few elders. Apparently he isn't such a natural 'loser' afterall...It also explains what they have been hinting at...that naturaly, naruto has more chakra capacity than anyone but he was a bit undisciplined and couldn't manage it well...if not for his vast stores of energy he would not be able to do a fraction of what he does. In the course of the series he learns to control things more and gains alot of power because of it...of course, the nine-tails still gives him lots of power on top of that...but they have been hinting that he is not using that power anymore.



As far as ability goes...Maybe Naruto was such a screwup when he was young was because he had so much raw power (from his own ability plus what the nine-tails gave him passivly). Think of a fire hose...it takes one very strong man to handle it on full blast....normally you have 2 men man the hose...if they are not fit, it could be very difficult...now, picture that power in the hands of a small boy...some of the water would get where he wanted...but most would be wasted since it is far too much for the boy to control...as he learns to use his natural power...he will prove to be stronger than probably everyone...

Poor Sauske, always the vegita to Naruto's Goku...

[Oslecamo]

Ok, let's put things this way:

1-Ninjas are suposed to be stealthy, naruto guys walk around with bright customs and huge colourfull haircuts that could be spotted a mile away.

2-Ninjas are suposed to keep their identity undercover, Naruto characters walk around with metal tablets that explicity state what they are. Traitors even bother to make a signal in their tablets so everyone knows they are traitors.

3-Ninjas are suposed to kill whitout anyone noticing, Naruto guys kill the enemies with attacks that make everybody in a 10 miles radius notice even if they are half blind half deaf. C'mon, summonning monsters the size of godzilla is a ninja technique? Fireball is a ninja technique?

So, basically, I just try to ignore the story and focus on the cool battle scenes. Despite all the character flaws, Naruto has some really good fight scenes on it.

However, there is one thing to praise about Naruto guys intelegence:he knows the ninja power and numbers relation.

"The power of a group of ninjas is irreversibly proportional to the number of ninjas in that group"

Just look at the anime:

When first hunting Sasuke, instead of ganking up on Orachimaru's bodyguards, they separate themselves to have several 1x1 fights.

When Orochimaru fights the Hokage, he fights him alone, despite having plenty of strong minions to suport him. He even manages to get a dagger to his throat. However he then summons 2 zombie ninjas, allowing the Hokage to pwn them all with the help of jis monkey ninja(3x2), but when the hokage banishes the zombies, he is at a disadvantage(1x2), wich allows Orochimaru to stick the sword on him and resist his death spell...eerr, Chakra.

Whenever one of guy faces a large mob of ninjas they totally pwn the large mob.

Lee almost defeated the growing bones guy alone, but then Gara arrived, droping his power and making him lose. Then they were almost killed.

[Obrysii]

It's about some dude trying to be a ninja while wearing an orange jumpsuit.
That's bad enough.
Also, the voice acting and catchphrase suck. Ugh.

Note, in the Naruto universe, "ninja" is merely someone who uses ninjutsu - that world's version of spells. It's flavor text.

The voice acting isn't bad - actually, only Naruto himself has a bad voice. Everyone else has a very good actor.

And they dropped that crappy "Believe it!" saying about half-way through the dub.

[Ozymandias]

I second that Naruto is an above-average shōnen series. I remember reading the first volume at a Borders and thinking, "Hey, this is pretty cool.", but to be honest after reading the rest of the manga it doesn't really have much to set it apart from other series. It's probably because it seems to me to be very similar to Yū Yū Hakusho, but for a marginally younger demographic and with more characters. Unfortunately, of the "main three plus teacher" only maybe one is likeable (to me), one acceptable (post skip) and two annoying (I'm on a never-ending quest to kill my brother/prove myself to peers because I'm self-conscious! Dattebayo/Believe it!). After the skip, everyone becomes super-powerful which is sort of silly.

I think I'd generally rather watch a new series (I could start Bleach or Berserk) because the quality of Naruto has waned rather a lot. Like Death Note (and the FMA manga), it's really lost steam, and I just don't see the charm anymore.

[Darken Rahl]

Why does naruto have cat whiskers?

[Oslecamo]

Why does naruto have cat whiskers?

It's suposed to eb fox whiskers. It also appears in some other mangas, lik love Hina. It's similar to the cat ear thingy in the sense that japanese mangakas love to put animal forms in their characters.

[Darken Rahl]

Thanks.

That's one of the many things I really dislike about anime/manga answered.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Why does naruto have cat whiskers?

Yes, they are supposed to be fox whiskers...it is unknown if they are just drawn that way as an asthetic, resembling light stubble in that shape, or are actually 3 long whiskers...if the latter, they have never been seen to leave his face in the manner that a long whisker might...

As to why...

Inside him is sealed the demon fox known as the nine-tails, or Kyyubi (which means nine-tails. The demon was the most powerful of the nine 'tailed' demons (each with 1-9 tails...Shukaku was the demon racoon with one tail...Garaa has rings under his eyes liek a racoon, Itchibi) The nine-tails was sealed inside Naruto by the same technique the 5th Hokage used to seal Orochimaru's hands by the 4th Hokage. The demon is trapped in such a way that the demon's chakra can leak out some and mix with naruto's. This has had some interesting effects on his development and is part of the story...the exact nature of their relationship is not entirely known and has evolved throughout the manga and anime with more being discovered as befits the story.

When he draws on the power of the Kyyubi, his canines grow slightly (or alot depending), he grows claws, the whiskers are thicker, and his eyes change to red slitted eyes (similar to the demon). If he draws on too much power, he gets surrounded by chakra and the chakra starts to take the shape of the Kyyubi...so far we have seen up to 4 tails in his transformation. up to 3 he can control...with the 4th...he gets a bit out of control and just goes berserk.

That is the main reason...each of the Jinchuruki (people who bear a tailed demon) exhibit some resemblance to their beast.

[Gungnir]

*Activating flame shield.* :smalltongue:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/talkkno/Coincidence___or_NOT__by_Booter_Fre.gif
*twitch* Must... not... type... in... all... caps...

1. It's a reincarnation thing, and there's more like 1,000 of his previous lives, not some random evil fox. Not the same whatsoever.
2. Airbending moves air, and is a very defensive style. Rasengan, from what youtube shows me, explodes. Not the same whatsoever.
3. Appa =/= giant toad. Appa is made of fuzzy and awesome.
4. So Sasuke has one move that shoots out fire. Clearly, they are long lost twins.
5. Zuzu doesn't angst, he yells at his subordinates and shoots fire at them.
6. Azula is FAR more evil than anything Naruto's universe can come up with.

[/rant] In other words, you're comparing apples and watermelons.

[Oslecamo]

*twitch* Must... not... type... in... all... caps...

1. It's a reincarnation thing, and there's more like 1,000 of his previous lives, not some random evil fox. Not the same whatsoever.
2. Airbending moves air, and is a very defensive style. Rasengan, from what youtube shows me, explodes. Not the same whatsoever.
3. Appa =/= giant toad. Appa is made of fuzzy and awesome.
4. So Sasuke has one move that shoots out fire. Clearly, they are long lost twins.
5. Zuzu doesn't angst, he yells at his subordinates and shoots fire at them.
6. Azula is FAR more evil than anything Naruto's universe can come up with.

[/rant] In other words, you're comparing apples and watermelons.

1-Random evil fox??? Kyyubi it's one of the strongest beings in the whole Naruto world. It's so strong it can't actually be killed, it had to be sealed inside Naruto. The age is never specified, but certainly it's not very young.

2-Chakra does pratically anything and everything in Naruto. There is defensive and healing chakras techniques. Rasengan is Naruto's signature move, but he also knows defensive techniques.

3-Ok, the giant toad is one of the most ridiculous cohorts I've seen in my life, I give you that. But still giant beast mount.

4-Sasuke just loves to burn things.

5-Sasuke doesn't agst, he breaks people's arms and tries to kill whoever is nearby when he is in a bad mood.

6-Orochmaru kidnaps, tortures and kills little children for his pleasure. He forced hundreds of his own minions to fight each other to the death so he could see wich one was the strongest. He dreams only with increasing his own power and corrupting or killing all those around him. He tried to destroy his home village for fun. He respects no one, and he will do and sacrifice anything to achieve his objectives. How can you be more evil?

[Tengu]

6-Orochmaru kidnaps, tortures and kills little children for his pleasure. He forced hundreds of his own minions to fight each other to the death so he could see wich one was the strongest. He dreams only with increasing his own power and corrupting or killing all those around him. He tried to destroy his home village for fun. He respects no one, and he will do and sacrifice anything to achieve his objectives. How can you be more evil?

Well, at least he's not a pedophile... wait...

[Kojiro Kakita]

Rabid Yaoi Fan girls will have you believe otherwise.

[Jerthanis]

I felt like Naruto was really good at first, but then lost a lot of steam later on. I only read the Manga because the Anime kind of sucked after the 19th episode. The story arcs nearer the beginning had much more emotional investment in them, wheras now they're on their third or fourth year trying to rescue Sasuke, and the story seems to be mostly fluff fighting. The fact that Sakura finally did more than stand there with a kunai in her hand doesn't make up for the fact that it just got bad.

But basically, the Wave country storyline was the best, and the entire series is just a continuation of that. The end of the Chuunin exam was also pretty good for the epic Naruto/Gaara and Hokage/Oorochimaru confrontations. After that it was pretty much just any other Shonen series ever. When it was revealed that Naruto could train at 1000 times the normal speed by splitting into 1000 clones of himself, I knew the series would never ever be good again.

Also, for those of you who think Naruto's orange jumpsuit ruins the series, part of the point of Naruto is to be a story about Ninja that doesn't adhere to every aspect of ninja we're already familiar with. Another identical story about dudes in black pajamas jumping through the air in blurs with all the noise of a mouse fart may be cool... but it's also Ninja with no creativity. Whether you like or dislike the fact that Naruto Ninja are different from normal ninja, you have to admit it's at the very least an attempt to say something different about ninja than the average stereotype. And to be fair, the black pajama/mouse fart ninja is no more accurate to what actual ninja were like than Naruto ninja are anyway.

[Obrysii]

How can people compare Avatar with Naruto? Or at least insinuate the latter stole from the former? Naruto has been around for nearly a decade (first published in '99) ... Avatar has been around since '05.

The anime of Naruto has been around since '02 ... and again, Avatar's been around since '05.

[sune]

[QUOTE=MasatoHyuga;3787739]Neji Hyuga owns you.:smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:


rock owns neji all the way!!!

[sune]

*twitch* Must... not... type... in... all... caps...

1. It's a reincarnation thing, and there's more like 1,000 of his previous lives, not some random evil fox. Not the same whatsoever.
2. Airbending moves air, and is a very defensive style. Rasengan, from what youtube shows me, explodes. Not the same whatsoever.
3. Appa =/= giant toad. Appa is made of fuzzy and awesome.
4. So Sasuke has one move that shoots out fire. Clearly, they are long lost twins.
5. Zuzu doesn't angst, he yells at his subordinates and shoots fire at them.
6. Azula is FAR more evil than anything Naruto's universe can come up with.

[/rant] In other words, you're comparing apples and watermelons.

lol! not really... have you even seen more then 5 naruto episodes? (avater sucks)

[sune]

rock owns neji all the way!!![/QUOTE]

rock lee sorry

[Volug]

rock lee sorry

Rock lee? HA! Comedy relief cannot even touch Neji:smalltongue:

((The edit button is your friend.))

[Nerd-o-rama]

Why is everyone insisting on comparing shonen anime in this thread, but no one's brought up Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann yet?

Oh right, fansubs are illegal. Regardless, that's a man's kid's cartoon, as you will all find out when you torrent it/it gets a stateside release in...April, I think.

Anyway, Naruto itself isn't really my cup of tea. It's all just so...generic. I've seen all the plots before, there's nothing endearing or really interesting about the characters, and the fight scenes aren't even that great (more due to cheap animation than bad choreography, though). And of course, the dub is godawful, but that's par for the course.

Also, hilarious Avatar comparison comic (I am a big Avatar fan), and horrifying, horrifying Venture Bros. picture. It looks like Excel Saga or something.

[Guts]

For now, I rate Avatar over Naruto because it's has pretty much has everything I expected from the plot of Naruto but condensed into a smaller series, so it doesn't feels like its been stuck in a rut for so long. The fights are less flashier, though better choreographed, and aren't prolonged by lame 'Let's hammer the power of friendship/dreaming into our viewers heads again' speeches or unnecessarily long flashbacks and the mystical abilities at least have something to do with the history of the world and shows some of the structure of their world (Bleach does this too) rather than just being there to abuse. If Naruto's story picks up, I'll change my mind. Bleach also started off good, but seems too have slowed down in the current arc, so I ony watch it for fights.

Oh and Ozymandias, I order you to read Berserk, NOW.

[geez3r]

Naruto... has potential. On a scale of 1-10 I'd rate it about a 7. Shippuden (or however you spell it) is a bit better than the older stuff but... I don't know it just feels lacking. If just a few changes were made, even subtly over time, it would be a much better series.

And because we've mentioned other series

Bleach is about an 8, it would more "legitimate" in my mind if someone eventually died. Everytime someone gets a "fatal" wound they'll lay facedown in the dirt for a few hours until help arrives with no down side.

One Piece is either a 5 or a 9. It's a 5 if you read it as a serious series, it's a 9 if you read it as a self parodying series

Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann is an 11. If you haven't seen this series, you are missing out; it's fantastic.

[Nerd-o-rama]

geez3r: Yes! It goes beyond the impossible, and kicks reason to the curb! Yet is still more comprehensible than anything else by that studio!


For now, I rate Avatar over Naruto because it's has pretty much has everything I expected from the plot of Naruto but condensed into a smaller series, so it doesn't feels like its been stuck in a rut for so long. The fights are less flashier, though better choreographed, and aren't prolonged by lame 'Let's hammer the power of friendship/dreaming into our viewers heads again' speeches or unnecessarily long flashbacks and the mystical abilities at least have something to do with the history of the world and shows some of the structure of their world (Bleach does this too) rather than just being there to abuse. If Naruto's story picks up, I'll change my mind. Bleach also started off good, but seems too have slowed down in the current arc, so I ony watch it for fights.
Avatar's main strength is that, as an American cartoon that knows it's never going to get more than three seasons* , it doesn't go for "decompressed" (read: unnecessarily drawn out) storytelling. The best action/adventure shows, Western or Eastern, animated or non, tend to be ones that are focused, written with a beginning, middle, and end in mind from the start. Otherwise things just drag out into 400 continuous episodes of filler when the writers run out of ideas/the manga its based on falls behind schedule (nowhere was this done more famously than Dragonball, which just kept getting renewed every time the writer tried to kill it).

*not counting spinoffs and barring massive Kim Possible-style petitioning.

[sune]

It's about some dude trying to be a ninja while wearing an orange jumpsuit.
That's bad enough.
Also, the voice acting and catchphrase suck. Ugh.

the voices are waaayy better in the japaniese

[Poison_Fish]

Thinks of a way to defend shounen action shows........fails miserably
Current Shounen Shows I am watching:
Minami-ke
Spice and Wolf
Zoku Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei
Clannad
and of course
Shakugan no Shana

Best shows are the ones that only last one to two season at max
(anime season is 12 episdoes)

Uh, quick point on at least two of those, and maybe 3.

Zetsubo Sensei is not shounen, it's comedy, much more an adult comedy in fact. Spice and Wolf isn't quite shounen either. I don't think Minami-ke is, but it's the only one I haven't seen. But as far as I know, it's a harem comedy.

Also, I happen to like shounen fights. But even then, I've lost my interest in Naruto.

[WarriorTribble]

Why is everyone insisting on comparing shonen anime in this thread, but no one's brought up Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann yet?GL is a series where willpower directly alters reality. It's more comparable to Sailor Moon than Naruto. Hell, I'd go as far as saying Gurren Lagann is the male version of Sailor Moon.

6. Azula is FAR more evil than anything Naruto's universe can come up with.Azula's villany comes from her sciopathic desire to be the best and most powerful, which is a trait shared by many villains. However since Avatar is an American children's show, she loses out on the ruthlessness, and manipulative aspects of villainy. As others have mentioned a Naruto villain has forced hundreds to kill just so he could find a worthy vessel for his spirit, and has controlled thousands using every emotion humans are capable of feeling. It's trivial to use someone via fear and anger, but it takes a special kind to control someone with love (platonic this is a kids show).

Ultimately Azula's singleminded nature makes her badass, but only circumstance makes her a villain. It's easy to think of scenarios where she's a benign force (her talents lie in... cooking), or even a protagonist (she's born an earth kingdom citizen). I don't mean to say that she's a bad character of course, just that as villians go... she's a declawed cat. Still one of my favorite characters nevertheless.

[EvilElitest]

*Activating flame shield.* :smalltongue:


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/talkkno/Coincidence___or_NOT__by_Booter_Fre.gif

Oh no, i admit there are very similer characters, the differences is that Avatar is well written while still being so similar. I dislike Aang, but i don't dispise him and i don't spend every ep regreting the main character
Zuko is an angsty wanna be anti hero, but he comes out being a lot more easy to feel for than lord emo


from
EE

[Nerd-o-rama]

GL is a series where willpower directly alters reality. It's more comparable to Sailor Moon than Naruto. Hell, I'd go as far as saying Gurren Lagann is the male version of Sailor Moon.
Well, I was drawing the comparison because they both fall into the broad category of shounen (Japanese: "for young men"). Everyone else was bringing up Dragon Ball Z, Bleach, One Piece, Death Note, etc. which are also shounen (although all but the last are more traditional Action-Adventure/Martial Arts shows, as opposed to TTGL which is the superest of Super Robot shows).

But the masculine Sailor Moon comparison is valid too, as that show is shoujo (Japanese: "for young women"), and also kinda over-the-top ridiculous, though obviously much less so than Gurren-Lagann.

[Tengu]

No thread about Naruto can be complete without these:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=juaN-auM05Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkcGkRY5gWw&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAVhAPCusrE


Notice how there's progressively fewer actual Naruto intro and more other stuff as it progresses. I wonder how will the fourth one look like... though it will probably be about an intro from the time when I stopped watching.

[tyckspoon]

No thread about Naruto can be complete without these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAVhAPCusrE


WTF Gaara. I've been involved in the fandom for... too long, how did I not ever encounter those until now?

[Tengu]

WTF Gaara. I've been involved in the fandom for... too long, how did I not ever encounter those until now?

From what I know these movies are made somewhere in Russia. Which makes sense, since this style is Eastern European Flash at its finest. Trust me, I know... I live here, after all.

[WarriorTribble]

Well, I was drawing the comparison because they both fall into the broad category of shounen (Japanese: "for young men"). Everyone else was bringing up Dragon Ball Z, Bleach, One Piece, Death Note, etc. which are also shounen (although all but the last are more traditional Action-Adventure/Martial Arts shows, as opposed to TTGL which is the superest of Super Robot shows).

But the masculine Sailor Moon comparison is valid too, as that show is shoujo (Japanese: "for young women"), and also kinda over-the-top ridiculous, though obviously much less so than Gurren-Lagann.It's true GL can be categorized as shounen (maybe shounen parody?), but imo the trait that makes it somewhat unique is the aforementioned concept of spiral energy. To the best of my knowledge Sailor Moon is the only other series to revolve around a similar concept with their wish fulfilling Silver Crystal.

[EvilElitest]

lol! not really... have you even seen more then 5 naruto episodes? (avater sucks)

yet again, i'm going to assume that your being sarcastic again, but for the record, Nautro is horrible written, with bad charactization, uninteresting plots, illogical storyline, uninteresting conflicts and badly thought out cast, all of which Avatar has, dispite its flaws. I mean, i dislike Aang, but as i said before, i can tolerate him, i don't hate him the way i hate mr. Orange jumpsuit


6-Orochmaru kidnaps, tortures and kills little children for his pleasure. He forced hundreds of his own minions to fight each other to the death so he could see wich one was the strongest. He dreams only with increasing his own power and corrupting or killing all those around him. He tried to destroy his home village for fun. He respects no one, and he will do and sacrifice anything to achieve his objectives. How can you be more evil?
While he is my favorite character
1. he is badly written, i never feel like he is accully scary, i don't smpathize with him, and he is unbielivabel
2. on the other hand, our Genre savy villianess is more scary as she is more beliveable as well as being well written enough that i accully can understand her motives
3. In both shows, i want the villians to win. However their is an importance differences. I like Azula because she is well written and interesting, and i like the way she thinks, i root for Orochmaru because i think he deserves to win more because of the total useless of the main cast
from
EE

[Ozymandias]

Oh and Ozymandias, I order you to read Berserk, NOW.

Can do.


yet again, i'm going to assume that your being sarcastic again, but for the record, Nautro is horrible written, with bad charactization, uninteresting plots, illogical storyline, uninteresting conflicts and badly thought out cast, all of which Avatar has, dispite its flaws. I mean, i dislike Aang, but as i said before, i can tolerate him, i don't hate him the way i hate mr. Orange jumpsuit

Just because you don't like the series doesn't mean you have to be so negative all the time. You could say "I don't like this" instead of "This is horribly written garbage". Seriously. I mean, it's completely subjective, so you really needn't be so vehement.

[thorgrim29]

Can do.

Do it, NOW. I've read it 2 times to date, and it's made of pure awesome with a generous helping of badass. Pretty muck like Hellsing actually, though hellsing has a big advantage: the protagonist is the single most powerfull being in the world, ergo it evades the endless spiral of ever-increasing power most fighting manga go through. But Berserk is still awesome. And Naruto? Read it, watched the anime untill the filler of DOOM, and arrived to the conclusion that it started losing steam when Zabuza died, and is progressively being drained of its coolness.

[WarriorTribble]

While he is my favorite character
1. he is badly written, i never feel like he is accully scary, i don't smpathize with him, and he is unbielivabel
2. on the other hand, our Genre savy villianess is more scary as she is more beliveable as well as being well written enough that i accully can understand her motives
3. In both shows, i want the villians to win. However their is an importance differences. I like Azula because she is well written and interesting, and i like the way she thinks, i root for Orochmaru because i think he deserves to win more because of the total useless of the main cast1. Strange, both Azula and Orochimaru are highly charismatic and skilled fighters who let nothing stop them from their goals, yet only one of them is unbelievable... I'd argue Azula is the less believable one after she managed to take over the Dai Li, overriding decades of hatred and nationalism. To be fair, Orochimaru did something similar when he became leader of the Sound Village, but that universe is known for it's political instability, and respect of power over most anything else (hence why the Leaf Village's notion of loyalty to one's group is considered novel and absurd).

2. Being genre savvy isn't that impressive actually. We're capable of it and so are the writers.

3. Why do you think the main cast of Naruto is useless? Well, except Sakura I know the why for her.

[Lizardfolk Lich]

The things I hate most about Naruto are the main character, and the fanboys. They get called Narutards for a reason...

[EvilElitest]

Just because you don't like the series doesn't mean you have to be so negative all the time. You could say "I don't like this" instead of "This is horribly written garbage". Seriously. I mean, it's completely subjective, so you really needn't be so vehement.
Really, that would be more warranted if i attacked the fans, or people who just like it, but in context, i like Avatar and hate Nautro because i only winch at the formers writing, while i actively gag at the latter. Quite honestly, i find the writing of Naurto horrible, just like a find the writing of Eragon horrible, and the movie 300 horrible. I don't think everyone who likes those things are awful tasteless people, nor that my option should prevent you from enjoying them, but i still stand by my option on the bad writing, i really just find it ungodly.




1. Strange, both Azula and Orochimaru are highly charismatic and skilled fighters who let nothing stop them from their goals, yet only one of them is unbelievable... I'd argue Azula is less believable one actually after she managed to take over the Dai Li, overriding decades of hatred and nationalism. To be fair, Orochimaru did something similar when he became leader of the Sound Village, but that universe is known for it's political instability, and respect of power over most anything else (hence why the Leaf Village's notion of loyalty to one's group is considered novel and absurd).

Azula is more believable, as i know people like her in real life. People like Orochimaru are just over the top in terms of evilness i don't feel at all scared as they never acknowledge that, the idea of a sicko like that existing is never really addressed, uninteresting. Azula is more believable as she is an egomaniacal sociopath with a god complex, but you can understand her. I can sympathize with that driving need for perfection and control, i can't really sympathize with snake man in any ways.
As for the coup, while i am not the most knowledgeable, but i think the take over of the Dai Li wouldn't be that hard as they aren't that nationalistic at all, just corrupt and power hungry, they want control of their nation and are willing to work with Azula to get it.


2. Being genre savvy isn't that impressive actually. We're capable of it and so are the writers.

Right, then why is everything in Naurto totally genre clueless


3. Why do you think the main cast of Naruto is useless? Well, except Sakura I know the why for her.

Other than Sakura being "generic useless female character" nautro is an emotionally crippled, hyper, annoying character with the intelligence of a suger high 8 year old. Lord Emo is just that, uninteresting, whiny, and foolish ineffective loner.
from
EE

[Alex Kidd]

One Piece is either a 5 or a 9. It's a 5 if you read it as a serious series, it's a 9 if you read it as a self parodying series

You seen the sub? It's really a lot better, I'd say it's a 8 just taken as is. Bleach would be a 7 and Naruto would be a 5. I also agree on your point with Bleach, it fails becuase there is no dramatic tension due to there being no threat of death(It's also completely breaking the suspension of disbelief, I mean what Nemu just survived in the manga...). And unlike One Piece where that kind of drama isn't important to the atmosphere, Bleach sets itself up as serious enough that it is needed.


yet again, i'm going to assume that your being sarcastic again, but for the record, Nautro is horrible written, with bad charactization, uninteresting plots, illogical storyline, uninteresting conflicts and badly thought out cast, all of which Avatar has, dispite its flaws. I mean, i dislike Aang, but as i said before, i can tolerate him, i don't hate him the way i hate mr. Orange jumpsuit
So you're saying Avatar has all the same problems as Naruto, or that Avatar doesn't have all the same problems as Naruto? Cause if it's the latter I agree. Except that I'd say mediocre is a better adjective for most of Naruto's problems, it's still watchable and most of the characters are initially interesting the later characterisation just fails utterly.




1. he is badly written, i never feel like he is accully scary, i don't smpathize with him, and he is unbielivabel
2. on the other hand, our Genre savy villianess is more scary as she is more beliveable as well as being well written enough that i accully can understand her motives
3. In both shows, i want the villians to win. However their is an importance differences. I like Azula because she is well written and interesting, and i like the way she thinks, i root for Orochmaru because i think he deserves to win more because of the total useless of the main cast
from
EE

Fully agree. Azula's one of the more realistic and interesting monsters on TV.

[WarriorTribble]

Azula is more believable, as i know people like her in real life. People like Orochimaru are just over the top in terms of evilness i don't feel at all scared as they never acknowledge that, the idea of a sicko like that existing is never really addressed, uninteresting. Azula is more believable as she is an egomaniacal sociopath with a god complex, but you can understand her. I can sympathize with that driving need for perfection and control, i can't really sympathize with snake man in any ways.
As for the coup, while i am not the most knowledgeable, but i think the take over of the Dai Li wouldn't be that hard as they aren't that nationalistic at all, just corrupt and power hungry, they want control of their nation and are willing to work with Azula to get it.Fair enough, personally I find Azula to be a literal kiddie villian in a kiddie version of a world torn asunder. The Dai Li were unbelivable and I'm surprised you accepted their actions so easily. They're the force (or part of the force) that fought with the Fire Nation for decades, and have a fierce loyalty to the stability of their nation. It's downright impossible they'd accept a barbaric Fire Nationalist as their leader, especially with all the instability and fear it would cause. I'm somewhat tempted to think Nick did this since concepts like nationalism, and racism were considered too complex.
Right, then why is everything in Naurto totally genre cluelessThey're not to the best of my knowledge. Please give some examples.
Other than Sakura being "generic useless female character" nautro is an emotionally crippled, hyper, annoying character with the intelligence of a suger high 8 year old. Lord Emo is just that, uninteresting, whiny, and foolish ineffective loner.Well Sakura is useful now, but it's too little too late imo. Naruto (mostly) got over his emotional problems rather early in the series, and like many shounen protagonists, show brains under extreme pressure. Can't really defend Sasuke though, but "ineffecive"? Er... I'll just say he is highly effictive at what he does, and leave Princess Bride alone. In any case those three are far from the main cast.

Eh then again I'm the guy who doesn't like "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" just cause of the main characer.

[averagejoe]

Fair enough, personally I find Azula to be a literal kiddie villian in a kiddie version of a world torn asunder. The Dai Li were unbelivable and I'm surprised you accepted their actions so easily. They're the force (or part of the force) that fought with the Fire Nation for decades, and have a fierce loyalty to the stability of their nation. It's downright impossible they'd accept a barbaric Fire Nationalist as their leader, especially with all the instability and fear it would cause. I'm somewhat tempted to think Nick did this since concepts like nationalism, and racism were considered too complex.They're not to the best of my knowledge. Please give some examples.

You keep dwelling on this one point, but there's more to Azula than being able to inspire large amounts of unlikely loyalty. I mean, that was in just the one episode. Yes, it was unlikely, but it is arguably a flaw in the plot, or a flaw in the Dai Li, and not in the character of Azula herself.

Orochimaru, on the other hand, is constantly kicking the dog, raping the dog, and killing the dog's family in front of the dog. His evil is so over the top that it is very obvious that much of what he does is simply to make him seem more evil, and it becomes very hard to take him seriously after that, almost degenerating into narm much of the time. And he keeps doing it, over and over.

[EvilElitest]

Fair enough, personally I find Azula to be a literal kiddie villian in a kiddie version of a world torn asunder. The Dai Li were unbelivable and I'm surprised you accepted their actions so easily. They're the force (or part of the force) that fought with the Fire Nation for decades, and have a fierce loyalty to the stability of their nation. It's downright impossible they'd accept a barbaric Fire Nationalist as their leader, especially with all the instability and fear it would cause. I'm somewhat tempted to think Nick did this since concepts like nationalism, and racism were considered too complex.

1. Azula would be much better if Avatar was PG 13, but even so
2. The Dai Li weren't even fighting the fire nation. They only wanted their own power. It was like the USSR, it wasn't interested in the cause so much as its own power. Also they don't seem very racist, they just want power for themselves, and they don't have nationalism, that is why the main character don't like them, the don't care about the war, just preserving their own power



They're not to the best of my knowledge. Please give some examples.Well Sakura is useful now, but it's too little too late imo. Naruto (mostly) got over his emotional problems rather early in the series, and like many shounen protagonists, show brains under extreme pressure.
1. The fact they don't seem to live in their world so much as wander through it. The fact that they are gullible and simplistic? They don't adept very much throughout the story and still blunder through. Though to be fair, the world revolves around them, so they don't need to adept. Though if they were genre savvy, wouldn't one of them say
"wait, if we have computers, why do we fight with knives?"
2. According to my friends who still watch the show, he gets over his problems after the massive filler arch. Over 80 episodes. Yeah, ok early in the series?
3. Like most shounen protagonists, they are only as smart as the plot needs them to be, and nothing more. A sign of bad writing commonly.


Can't really defend Sasuke though, but "ineffecive"? Er... I'll just say he is highly effictive at what he does, and leave Princess Bride alone. In any case those three are far from the main cast.
Ineffective loner (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IneffectualLoner)
What he is good at is pretending to be a bad ass anti hero
from
EE

[WarriorTribble]

You keep dwelling on this one point, but there's more to Azula than being able to inspire large amounts of unlikely loyalty. I mean, that was in just the one episode. Yes, it was unlikely, but it is arguably a flaw in the plot, or a flaw in the Dai Li, and not in the character of Azula herself.

Orochimaru, on the other hand, is constantly kicking the dog, raping the dog, and killing the dog's family in front of the dog. His evil is so over the top that it is very obvious that much of what he does is simply to make him seem more evil, and it becomes very hard to take him seriously after that, almost degenerating into narm much of the time. And he keeps doing it, over and over.Yes, it's cause I've nothing bad to say about the character herself, just that she's essentially the one eyed person in a blind world. I did say I liked her.:smallamused:

You'll have to elaborate your point on Oro a bit I'm afraid. The way I see him while he's ruthless and does horrific things, he knows when to stop. For example; there's the scene where he gets hundreds of people to kill each other to find a new host body. After he finds a suitable candidate, he agrees to release the man's village as a final boon of shorts. You don't inspire love and loyalty via Xykon like actions after all...

[Gurumon]

The only thing about naruto that bugs me is the 5 minute staring competitions they have in the middle of the episodes. The anime is far too drawn out for my liking. I wish Berserk never got canceled, that anime was the best anime i've ever seen in my life.

[EvilElitest]

Yes, it's cause I've nothing bad to say about the character herself, just that she's essentially the one eyed person in a blind world. I did say I liked her.:smallamused:

You'll have to elaborate your point on Oro a bit I'm afraid. The way I see him while he's ruthless and does horrific things, he knows when to stop. For example; there's the scene where he gets hundreds of people to kill each other to find a new host body. After he finds a suitable candidate, he agrees to release the man's village as a final boon of shorts. You don't inspire love and loyalty via Xykon like actions after all...

his point was that in the writers attempt to make him evil, he has taken away every one of his human elements. And in doing so, the ability to sympathize with him. Azula is more scary because i know people like her exist, Oro just doesn't, his kinda of evil is so dark it is no longer scary
from
EE

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's true GL can be categorized as shounen (maybe shounen parody?), but imo the trait that makes it somewhat unique is the aforementioned concept of spiral energy. To the best of my knowledge Sailor Moon is the only other series to revolve around a similar concept with their wish fulfilling Silver Crystal.
Really, I'd file any kind of non-practical magic (things that are obviously "A Wizard Did It" without well-established rules and utility) under the same category. There's a number of stories where Willpower Makes It So, just not as obviously as in Gurren-Lagann (since Gurren-Lagann is just every Super Robot trope dialed up to 11 30): the majority of Disney films work like this on a less mature level, Neon Genesis Evangelion had all kinds of stuff happen just due to peoples' emotions (too bad they were all suicidal), hell, throw in anything that has magic happening Just Because instead of through intentional effort and classification by humans.

Anyway, all that argument aside, Spiral Energy's just a quirk of the plot, not a defining aspect of "what genre is it in", and certainly not "what demographic is it in", which is all I was talking about in the first place. I'm not saying Gurren-Lagann and Naruto are the same show. They're very different. About as different as, say, Naruto and Death Note. It's still a valid comparison, because they're marketed to the same people for the same reason.

[TheEmerged]

/humor on
Orochimaru exists in the real world. His name is Michael Jackson. There's a video out there (can't link, that whole "at work" thing) of him singing "Smooth Criminal".
/humor off

Whoever does the voice for him in the American version is soooooo channeling Deslok (of StarBlazers) it's not even funny.

======================

Speaking for myself, I got into Naruto at probably the only point in the series that would have resulted in my becoming a fan. The first episodes I saw were during the Forest test. The first episode I saw in its entirety was "Hinata Grows Bold". I started watching regularly right when the Pervy Sage joins the show. I didn't like the Wave Country arc, and feel that the series has gone downhill since the Chunin/Invasion arc.

I find that I'm a bigger fan of the manga than the anime these days. The pacing in the anime of late is horrible; it's a good thing Cartoon Network is double stacking the "Chasing Emoboy... er, Sasuke" episodes. I absolutely *loved* the Kakashi Gaiden story.

Also...
I personally am glad we're finally learning bits and pieces about Naruto's Mom. And that the Foruth Hokage was Naruto's father has been so obvious from the beginning you had to be a contrarian to argue otherwise, IMO :smallwink:

[WarriorTribble]

1. Azula would be much better if Avatar was PG 13, but even so
2. The Dai Li weren't even fighting the fire nation. They only wanted their own power. It was like the USSR, it wasn't interested in the cause so much as its own power. Also they don't seem very racist, they just want power for themselves, and they don't have nationalism, that is why the main character don't like them, the don't care about the war, just preserving their own power1. Totally agree.

2. Um... who do you think defended the city when Iroh placed the area in a seige for several months? There's also the drill situation, and the Fire Nation has admitted to trying to take the city for quite some time.
1. The fact they don't seem to live in their world so much as wander through it. The fact that they are gullible and simplistic? They don't adept very much throughout the story and still blunder through. Though to be fair, the world revolves around them, so they don't need to adept. Though if they were genre savvy, wouldn't one of them say
"wait, if we have computers, why do we fight with knives?"
2. According to my friends who still watch the show, he gets over his problems after the massive filler arch. Over 80 episodes. Yeah, ok early in the series?
3. Like most shounen protagonists, they are only as smart as the plot needs them to be, and nothing more. A sign of bad writing commonly.1. Do you mean the characters don't have much effect on their world? How is this bad?

Please give examples of the characters doing something especially gullible.

Adapt to what exactly? There's the increase in physical power all shounen titles have, and so far there doesn't seem to be any real need for anything else. The series doesn't have computers... where'd you get that?

2. Well I don't watch the episodes so the 80 episodes, when was that the chase Sasuke arc, or the fillers before Shippūden? Anyways he lost his major neurosis of being a loner, and being afraid of fighting in the first few episode. What else is there?

3. There's a fine line between grace under pressure, and an idiot becoming a genius. So, what instance was this line crossed? From what I remember Naruto always used rather simplistic tactics, and his nine-tails trump card to win. Digging a hole to escape an attack in the Chunin exam arc for example.

[averagejoe]

Yes, it's cause I've nothing bad to say about the character herself, just that she's essentially the one eyed person in a blind world. I did say I liked her.:smallamused:

You'll have to elaborate your point on Oro a bit I'm afraid. The way I see him while he's ruthless and does horrific things, he knows when to stop. For example; there's the scene where he gets hundreds of people to kill each other to find a new host body. After he finds a suitable candidate, he agrees to release the man's village as a final boon of shorts. You don't inspire love and loyalty via Xykon like actions after all...

Your first point is fair. As for the second, I must confess that I haven't seen a lot of the series, but there's a difference between "knowing when to stop," and, "Taking excessive pleasure in excessive cruelty that in no way hurts you." He isn't stupid, he doesn't kill people just 'cause, no matter what the consequences, but they do put in an excessive amount of moments that are supposed to shock us with his evilness, was my point. It's even down to the smaller things, like how he always seems to hide out in spooky places, or how his minions all seem to be deformed in some way (with some exceptions.) Even many of his techniques are supposed to seem somewhat horrific, like pulling his face skin off. None of this stuff is that bad on its own, and some of it is even kind of cool, but it piles up until it's just like, "Okay, he's evil, we get it already."

[Gungnir]

I think everyone who is discussing Azula's evilness is overlooking one key factor: As a child, she threw rocks at baby turtleducks.
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/4/4f/100px-Turtleduck.gif
Also, Azula really is extremely limited by Nick as far as evilness goes. I would not be surprised to see her rip out her own father's heart and throw it at Zuzu just to cause mental illness, or to perhaps deny Aang the chance to take him down. Oh, and it being Azula, there would probably be about 10 other pluses to doing it, but we wouldn't find out about for several episodes.

[EvilElitest]

2. Um... who do you think defended the city when Iroh placed the place in a seige for several months? There's also the drill situation, and the Fire Nation has admitted to trying to take the city for quite some time.

But the secret agents were only defending their city to protect their power, not out of real hatred or nationalism. They care only about their own cause, not anybody else's



1. Do you mean the characters don't have much effect on their world? How is this bad?

Noe, they just seem to get by in blundering foward relying on the power of friendship and love.


Please give examples of the characters doing something especially gullible.

Your kidding me right?


Adapt to what exactly? There's the increase in physical power all shounen titles have, and so far there doesn't seem to be any real need for anything else. The series doesn't have computers... where'd you get that?

Well considering they spend so much time together, don't you think they'd think of a plan maybe? Or try to guess at their enemies' plans. Or really any sort of tatical mindset.
As for computors http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrGKNdMrgiU&feature=related
around 1:33

2. Well I don't watch the episodes so the 80 episodes, when was that the chase Sasuke arc, or the fillers before Shippūden? Either was he lost his major neurosis of being a loner, and being afraid of fighting in the first few episode. What else is there?
what?



3. There's a fine line between grace under pressure, and an idiot becoming a genius. So, what instance was this line crossed? From what I remember Naruto always used rather simplistic tactics, and his nine-tails trump card to win. Digging a hole to escape an attack in the Chunin exam arc for example.
1. That sort of simplistic tatics is what made him a boring character
2. Naruto wins, well, because he is naurto. Not because he is good or deserves it, he just wins because otherwise their would be no plot.
from
EE

[WarriorTribble]

Really, I'd file any kind of non-practical magic (things that are obviously "A Wizard Did It" without well-established rules and utility) under the same category. There's a number of stories where Willpower Makes It So, just not as obviously as in Gurren-Lagann (since Gurren-Lagann is just every Super Robot trope dialed up to 11 30): the majority of Disney films work like this on a less mature level, Neon Genesis Evangelion had all kinds of stuff happen just due to peoples' emotions (too bad they were all suicidal), hell, throw in anything that has magic happening Just Because instead of through intentional effort and classification by humans.I can't simply cause most magic systems have a limit based on human frailties. Gurren Lagann on the other hand made the main character, and potentially any other spiral creature an omega level mutant limited only by his/her imagination/fear. The scales are just too off for me.

Btw, I don't recall emotions altering reality by themselves in Eva, but I didn't see the movies...

I agree GL is shounen like Naruto, just that I'd compare it more closely with Sailor Moon due to their respective plot and conflict resolutions.

[Ozymandias]

I don't actually remember that much about what Naruto I'd seen (I marathon read the complete series which at that point had reached the times-skip, and kept reading sporadically until Sasuke's reappearance before losing interest) except that Kabuto was a badass. Wikipedia says that he's not anymore. Damn, he was easily my favorite character. Hayate may have been competition if he hadn't died to such a loser.

Also, Berserk is apparently seinen. Sweet, I'm almost at that demographic age level. I'll try to fit it in between Faust and Werther.

[Green Bean]

2. The Dai Li weren't even fighting the fire nation. They only wanted their own power. It was like the USSR, it wasn't interested in the cause so much as its own power. Also they don't seem very racist, they just want power for themselves, and they don't have nationalism, that is why the main character don't like them, the don't care about the war, just preserving their own power


Actually, the whole thing makes more sense if you think of the Dai Li as acting more out of fear than lust for power. Think about it; the Earth King's just tossed your leader in jail, and it's probably just a matter of time before the whole organization is disbanded. People would start coming forward to report the sort of things they did to keep the war a secret, and half the organization's probably going to end up in their own dungeons.

The Dai Li rally around their former leader because his risky takeover bid is their best chance of avoiding punishment. Then Azula comes along and tells them that, sure, Long Feng might depose the king, but it would just be a matter of time before the army figures out what's going on, and tries to put the legitimate king back in power; the Dai Li's a police force, not a military organization. They can't expect to stand up against the army alone. So, Azula gives them a way out; the Fire Kingdom army backs up the Dai Li, and they end up in much the same position they were in before the Gaang arrived.

Whew, all this fanwank really tires me out. :smalltongue:

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Iroh wasn't pushed back if I remember it correctly...he had breached the walls of Ba Sing Se but got word of his son's death and pulled back. There might be more to it than that, but I think that is what happened.

As far as the Dai Li betraying the earth kingdom...supposidly they had become a corrupt version of themselves and only cared about their power, not about protecting the people. They probably wanted some good things for their people, but mainly they were concerned with personal power. They were given a choice...they could stick with their leader while the fire nation had already infiltrated their city and continue fighting against an ongoing seige with no end in sight. This choice would give them the power over the city if they overthrew the king...but they would still be under attack from the fire nation and in bad shape...or be the ones dethroned when the fire nation won.

Their other choice was to follow Azula...join with the fire nation in taking over Ba Sing Se and continue to enjoy their status as the main power in Ba Sing Se and spread their authority as Azula's right hand since she had power all over the conquered territories and the Fire nation. Ba Sing Se, with Dai Li help, would be taken by the fire nation in a quick coup...a nearly bloodless revolution that would see the earth kingdom under the full control of the Fire Nation...no huge battles, no significant loss of life, and under fire nation rule...while occupied...no more siege.

By allying with Azula, they brought a form of peace to the kingdom, cemented their power, and expanded their influence by working with Azula...in their eyes...probably a bit of a win-win.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I can't simply cause most magic systems have a limit based on human frailties. Gurren Lagann on the other hand made the main character, and potentially any other spiral creature an omega level mutant limited only by his/her imagination/fear. The scales are just too off for me.

Btw, I don't recall emotions altering reality by themselves in Eva, but I didn't see the movies...

I agree GL is shounen like Naruto, just that I'd compare it more closely with Sailor Moon due to their respective plot and conflict resolutions.
Eh. It's a question of power levels to me (they're always over 9000 on Gurren-Lagann. And yet, it never, ever gets boring. Probably goes back to my "planned self-contained story" vs. "rambling continuation" theory in my earlier posts). They just take the Power of the Human Spirit trope and run with it for miles.

As for Eva...well, pretty much everything cool that happened was a result of a character's disturbed emotional state (especially Shinji's). They had technology (sorta) and in the movie mystic ritual to make it real, but it's the same principle. Perhaps not surprisingly, Evangelion and Gurren-Lagann are two sides of the same coin...but I'm pontificating entirely off-topic now. If someone wants to open a Gurren-Lagann thread, I'll go on for hours.

Finally, alright, as long as we're agreed on what I said in the first place. Still, I feel the show's tone and themes lie closer to the martial-arts-action genre than the magical girl one, regardless of the power of plot devices (of course, really it's neither, as it's the epitome of the super robot genre). But I'll agree to disagree on that.

[WarriorTribble]

But the secret agents were only defending their city to protect their power, not out of real hatred or nationalism. They care only about their own cause, not anybody else'sWhen people fight wars they die, when that happens you end up hating the group that did the killing, and start sterotyping said group in a negative light. Unless you want to argue the Dai Li aren't human, they should've been pissed at Azula, and done horrific things to her either when they realized she was Fire Nation, or when they no longer needed her. Since this is TV Y7, at the very least they shouldn't have let her control them...
Nope, they just seem to get by in blundering foward relying on the power of friendship and love.

Your kidding me right?

Well considering they spend so much time together, don't you think they'd think of a plan maybe? Or try to guess at their enemies' plans. Or really any sort of tatical mindset.
As for computors http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrGKNdMrgiU&feature=related
around 1:33They do not, they win by overpowering their opponents like all shounen shows. Relying on friendship and love is a shoujo trope. Friendship makes them more determined perhaps, but that's different.

No, I'm not kidding, start talking.

Saying there should be modern tech when the rest of the universe says otherwise is... strange. Better to jot that one off as a minor plot hole, or ninja magic. Kind of like how Water Benders were the weakest nation when their ability to directly affect a opponent's waters (blood/urine/whatever) should make them the deadliest military force in the Avatar universe.


what?You said it took him a long time to get over his problems, I stated it took him several episodes. What other mental problems did he have that was solved after whatever filler the 80 episodes was?
1. That sort of simplistic tatics is what made him a boring character
2. Naruto wins, well, because he is naurto. Not because he is good or deserves it, he just wins because otherwise their would be no plot.
from
EE1. Well fair enough. Don't see Avatar characters doing much better (except Sokka), but eh.

2. Since when? In that particular scene he won cause his opponent was an arrogant fatalistic prick (which was established early on), and let his guard down.

[Guts]

[quot]Saying there should be modern tech when the rest of the universe says otherwise is... strange. Better to jot that one off as a minor plot hole, or ninja magic. Kind of like how Water Benders were the weakest nation when their ability to directly affect a person's waters (blood/urine/whatever) should've make them the deadliest military force in the Avatar universe.[quot/]

A recent episode focused on that actually. Only waterbending masters can do it, and only during the full moon when their powers are the strongest. (I hope for Zuko's sake he doesn't piss Katara at a time when her time of of month are the full moon coincide.

[Raistlin1040]

Let me make this clear: I like Naruto. I am a fan of the show, and I enjoy watching it. However, at least 1/episode I have a moment where I just slap my forehead and groan. In fairness though, I will defend it. I also admit that I'm hardly an expert on avatar. I've seen it on a bunch, but I don't claim to be an expert. Here's my impression.

Villains: Orochimaru wins. He's just a badass. I don't care if you love him or hate him. He's basically evil incarnate. Killing his old mentor (Yes it a Star Wars throwback, but it makes for a good measure of evil), effectivly slaughtering hundreds of citizens of the village he runs to get a new body. The Akatsuki (SP?) are also pretty evil. Azula is a teenage girl in a "war-torn" world, where the world's savior is a freaking 8-year old. She's evil compared to the other villains in the show, but doesn't measure up.

Heroes: This is where the gap is pretty small. Naruto is annoying. So is Aang. Sakura is a good enough character, but is useless. Similar to Kitara. Kakashi brings the win to Naruto however, because he is just really cool.

Neutrals: Sasuke and Zuko both have their badass moments, but otherwise aren't super cool. Gaara is pretty cool, and something about him (especially in the beginning) is awesome. He loses a bit of cool for being an emo kid who had no friends, but only a bit. Avatar isn't just that interesting when it comes to Neutrals. The old man is interesting, but that's about it.

Story: Avatar first for a change. It's about a warring world where bending is a powerful skill used by benders. A young man named Aang sets out to save it because it's his destiny. Naruto is about a warring world where jutsu is a powerful skill used by ninja. Neither of them is original.

Winner: Naruto!

Of course, Death Note beats them both. That's a great piece of work, filled with interesting characters, plus the role reversal of the protagonist being a bad guy. Original plot, and it not only makes you think a bit, but isn't filled with the stupid humor of kid shows, but the dark comedy I enjoy.

[averagejoe]

Sakura is a good enough character, but is useless. Similar to Kitara.

What? Kitara has saved the day more than once, and is good both in fights and in non-fight emergencies.

Also, Avatar wins in humor.

[WarriorTribble]

A recent episode focused on that actually. Only waterbending masters can do it, and only during the full moon when their powers are the strongest. (I hope for Zuko's sake he doesn't piss Katara at a time when her time of of month are the full moon coincide.I interpreted that episode as blood bending can only be done during the full moon. Hama drew water too easily out of things with even less water content than us, for me to believe she couldn't do it with humans. Course there's nothing wrong with refusing to go in that gruesome path.

Just text but somewhat disturbing. You've been warned!Oh dear gods, now you made me think of Kitara attacking with her... monthly flow.averagejoe: Ah, I see, it's just been awhile since I've read early Naruto. :smallsmile:

[Raistlin1040]

But she's annoying as hell, and only wins when the writers want to make her do something.

Humor...ehh. I'm not sure either way, but an action show shouldn't really be decided by humor.

[averagejoe]

But she's annoying as hell, and only wins when the writers want to make her do something.

Humor...ehh. I'm not sure either way, but an action show shouldn't really be decided by humor.

Not dedicated, no, but it helps when in small doses. However, on that note, avatar has much better action than Naruto as well. Better animation, choreography, and the pacing isn't riddled with flashbacks/still shots that go beyond style and are obviously meant to slow the whole thing down and extend the series as much as possible.

Each avatar character gets some time in the limelight. Also, it isn't just that she wins fights, she accomplishes things, unlike Sakura. I am confused, however, when you say that she only wins when the writers want to make her do something. I mean, winning is doing something, but she does things anyways.

[Guts]

I interpreted that episode as blood bending can only be done during the full moon. The way Hama drew water out of anything even things with less water content than us, makes me think it's cause the show is simply not going to go in that gruesome path.

Well you did say blood/urine/whatever. What exactly did you mean though, the waterbenders manipulating their own fluids or that of their enemy? If its the latter, I presume bending urine and other body fluids would be as hard, maybe more, than blood since they are kept within specific sites of the body while blood is more all over the body. Causing someone's bladder to explode sure would take them out off a fight though. Drawing water from plants is easier because a plant's epidermis is thinner than that of a human and they could draw and condense water vapor from open stomata. There's also the question about how much they know of human anatomy (quite a few ppl where I am still believe a man's reproductive organs are in his back).

If you meant the former, we could see the deadliest golden showers ever. It would sure bring terror into the hearts of their enemy.

[WarriorTribble]

Well you did say blood/urine/whatever. What exactly did you mean though, the waterbenders manipulating their own fluids or that of their enemy? If its the latter, I presume bending urine and other body fluids would be as hard, maybe more, than blood since they are kept within specific sites of the body while blood is more all over the body. Causing someone's bladder to explode sure would take them out off a fight though. Drawing water from plants is easier because a plant's epidermis is thinner than that of a human and they could draw and condense water vapor from open stomata. There's also the question about how much they know of human anatomy (quite a few ppl where I am still believe a man's reproductive organs are in his back).Bending an opponents fluids. I've seen no evidence that physical barriers can hinder a bender, only distance. Remember how in the Black Sun invasion the water benders were able to bend the water outside the sub to propel it? Also, lets not forget Hama and Kitara also took water from bark and wood, though I guess that shouldn't count due to the full moon.

I don't think you'd really need anatomic knowledge to kill a person. Just bend any fluid you can grab inside them. There's very few intances where that tactic wouldn't be fatal, or at least debilitating. And that's just newbie bending, a Bending Master with complete medical knowledge could probably wipe out an army, mass freezing the cerebrospinal fluid in the skull, or something. I fear what an Avatar level could do... esp since air bending can also directly harm someone.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

There probably is some sort of mystic thing about living creatures with free will (stronger animals, humans) that prevents the manipulation of their internal water. Kitara has proven that sweat can be bent readily, but bending fluid while it is inside a person requires extra power for some reason. Since it can't be bent otherwise, I doubt that the water can be controlled in any fashion while inside a person other than during a full moon.

What I don't understand is this...if they really have control of the water...but can't control water that is part of someone...why not just drown them? Force the water into their lungs? It is so simple a technique by what they are capable of...I don't know why they wouldn't...or freeze a globe of water onto peoples' heads rather than always freezing limbs.

I guess cause it is a kids show they always go for the capture and not the kill. ANy blow that would be a 'kiling' blow is always dodge or avoided, but any capturing or knockback blow always lands...soo wierd...DnD tells us that avoiding using lethal force imposes a penalty...Cartoons tell us that only non-leathal hits ever land...wtf?!?! :smalleek:

One thing that troubles me about Naruto...What can the shadow clone do? Furthermore...what are transformed ninja capable of? The improved sexy jutsu-girl-on-girl style and the Harem-jutsu also make you wonder...when a ninja transforms into another being...they seem to really change..not just an illusion. (the frog gained claws and fangs in fox form and was able to hold onto the sand demon...he also had full use of the tails in a prehensile manner...obviously not just an illusion and fully capable of performing vigorous activity.) The Shadow Clones are also solid and capable of transformation...they can take some punishment, but can also be maintained while also under vigorous activity (like intense training). So how functional are they? And how many ninja have taken the time to...shall we say...explore the possibilities...

Naruto acts like such a dork around women so we can be fairly safe in assuming that he is blisfully ignorant of those particular possibilities...but come on...really...someone has likely tested this out in that world...

[Nerd-o-rama]

There probably is some sort of mystic thing about living creatures with free will (stronger animals, humans) that prevents the manipulation of their internal water. Kitara has proven that sweat can be bent readily, but bending fluid while it is inside a person requires extra power for some reason. Since it can't be bent otherwise, I doubt that the water can be controlled in any fashion while inside a person other than during a full moon.AT fields!

Wait, I decided this thread wasn't about Evangelion or my insane crossover theories regarding it. But yes, it's reasonable to assume that if you can only bend water within a person's blood under certain conditions, those conditions also apply to other bodily fluids, for whatever reason. It's not hard to say the same applies to why you can't bend the air out of someone's lungs.

Except for the imposition of no one ever landing a killing blow (ever), Avatar's reasonably consistent with its magic and martial arts. Firebending isn't really adequately explained, I guess...I just say "chi" and call it a day.

[WarriorTribble]

Hmm? I thought the AT fields only prevented humans from forming a group consciousness.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Iroh explains it in the episode 'Bitter work' and we discover that he was revealing much more than simple tricks when Aang and Zuko visit the masters in 'The Firebending Masters'.

Firebending draws it's power from the sun...fire is energy and life, not just destruction...the energy flows through them as their life force and can be concentrated into fire. Fire is just an extension of life...that is why fire seems to be a living thing.

A firebender doesn't just create fire, they channel the life energy to produce flame...like everyone has a little sun inside of them. So yes...call it 'chi', but firebending is not the manipulation of the external liek the other bending elements, it is the manipulation of the inner energy of a person into something else. The fire of a bender is the manifestation of their inner power.

Iroh hinted at such during 'Bitter Work' when he was teaching Zuko to redirect lightning...to manipulate the energy within one's body to allow the power to flow through you. Also, during his explination of lightning...how it is about the separation of energies to create a charge and then to release it. It gave the hint that firebending wasn't just the manipulation of existing flame, but that it was the manipulation of energy period. Which explains why a firebender is the only one that is able ot bend without anything...because there is always energy around...if they can't draw from the sun's ample supply, they draw from motion, or from their own 'chi'/inner fire.

[averagejoe]

Hmm? I thought the AT fields only prevented humans from forming a group consciousness.

No, no, no, they obviously prevent people from being tang.

[Alex Kidd]

No, no, no, they obviously prevent people from being tang.

Oh man, I just shot cola out of my nose.

And wait people are arguing whether Naruto beats Avatar? Geez this is like asking whether Die Hard is a better action film than some random Segal flick. Avatar actually has quality and class. Naruto's fine but it's dime a dozen as far as shonen goes.

[Tengu]

Humor...ehh. I'm not sure either way, but an action show shouldn't really be decided by humor.

I completely disagree. Action without any humor would be completely boring and cheesy. Not to mention that Avatar is not an action show.



I guess cause it is a kids show they always go for the capture and not the kill. ANy blow that would be a 'kiling' blow is always dodge or avoided, but any capturing or knockback blow always lands...

That's why the war took 100 years - because they really had to make sure nobody dies on-screen!

Also, two funny things:
1. Many of the "could have been messy" moments come not only on the part of bad guys, but also protagonists - for example, if the tank Aang thrown down in the battle at Northern (I think) Air Temple didn't shoot another grappling hook, those people inside would be dead meat! Same with Katara shooting needle-sharp ice shards at Sparky Sparky Boom Man.
2. It seems that in the bigger battles, off-screen death happens a lot anyway. Like when Sokka's and Katara's dad takes down the soldiers in that turret during the Day of Black Sun - he has no bending, so... not to mention that it's hard to imagine the crew of some of the tanks survived them being crushed, for another example.

And on a completely unrelated note, point me to me another show that makes Eskimos look so cool.

[Mr. Scaly]

Naruto and Sasuke deserve to be shot, but I like everyone else in the show...I'm only about halfway through the 'where's Sasuke?' arc though...

Speaking of Combustion Man, did anyone else find him surprisingly cool? All these firebenders, earthbenders and waterbenders use fancy moves when they attack. Flaming martial arts is insanely cool, but Combustion Man? He just has to look at you to turn you to a fine red mist! One of the more special sub-villains I thought, right up there with Long Feng.

[EvilElitest]

Actually, the whole thing makes more sense if you think of the Dai Li as acting more out of fear than lust for power. Think about it; the Earth King's just tossed your leader in jail, and it's probably just a matter of time before the whole organization is disbanded. People would start coming forward to report the sort of things they did to keep the war a secret, and half the organization's probably going to end up in their own dungeons.

The Dai Li rally around their former leader because his risky takeover bid is their best chance of avoiding punishment. Then Azula comes along and tells them that, sure, Long Feng might depose the king, but it would just be a matter of time before the army figures out what's going on, and tries to put the legitimate king back in power; the Dai Li's a police force, not a military organization. They can't expect to stand up against the army alone. So, Azula gives them a way out; the Fire Kingdom army backs up the Dai Li, and they end up in much the same position they were in before the Gaang arrived.

Whew, all this fanwank really tires me out. :smalltongue:

Ok, that is also a very logical and reasonable explanation of the coup, as well as something i can see a power hungry selfish corrupt group of dictators doing to preserve their power.


Except for the imposition of no one ever landing a killing blow (ever), Avatar's reasonably consistent with its magic and martial arts. Firebending isn't really adequately explained, I guess...I just say "chi" and call it a day.
You know Zuko's girlfriend, Mai or whatever, the one with the knives. She hasn't hit a single target in the show i believe

from
EE

[WarriorTribble]

The Dai Li rally around their former leader because his risky takeover bid is their best chance of avoiding punishment. Then Azula comes along and tells them that, sure, Long Feng might depose the king, but it would just be a matter of time before the army figures out what's going on, and tries to put the legitimate king back in power; the Dai Li's a police force, not a military organization. They can't expect to stand up against the army alone. So, Azula gives them a way out; the Fire Kingdom army backs up the Dai Li, and they end up in much the same position they were in before the Gaang arrived....I bow to your impeccable rationale. There is the minor issue where I'm dubious the Dai Li would've been unified in that decision, but it's still impressive. :cool:
Except for the imposition of no one ever landing a killing blow (ever), Avatar's reasonably consistent with its magic and martial arts. Firebending isn't really adequately explained, I guess...I just say "chi" and call it a day.You need to first know how to say "kill" before doing it. :smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

...I bow to your impeccable rationale. There is the minor issue where I'm dubious the Dai Li would've been unified in that decision, but it's still impressive. :cool:You need to first know how to say "kill" before doing it. :smallbiggrin:

1. I think the Dai Li was well organized from the start, note how they almost all still remain loyal to their leader
2. Yeah, i think Avatar would be better if it was aimed for 13 year olds up
from
EE

[Nerd-o-rama]

A firebender doesn't just create fire, they channel the life energy to produce flame...like everyone has a little sun inside of them. So yes...call it 'chi', but firebending is not the manipulation of the external liek the other bending elements, it is the manipulation of the inner energy of a person into something else. The fire of a bender is the manifestation of their inner power.
Yeah, looking back, Iroh explained it pretty well (and that was a good episode, despite Zuko reaching the very apex of his angst in it). I'm trying to decide whether converting "life energy" into heat is any more silly than using it for limited-medium telekinesis...probably not.

And my AT fields comment was just the idea that a person's will gives them dominion over their physical form, allowing them to resist forcible outside interference. AT fields are an idea on the same theme, but not really the same thing, so it was apropos of nothing I guess.

[waterdolphin777]

I personally like Naruto. True, in the original, Sakura made me want to jump into the computer and punch her in the face and the fillers sucked, but Shippuuden is much, much better. Right now though, I think that Kishimoto is running out of ideas or something because the manga is getting kinda boring. That's ok though, because I have a lot of other animes and mangas that I'm following. If the end is as sucky as the FMA anime end though....:smallfurious:

[EvilElitest]

I personally like Naruto. True, in the original, Sakura made me want to jump into the computer and punch her in the face and the fillers sucked, but Shippuuden is much, much better. Right now though, I think that Kishimoto is running out of ideas or something because the manga is getting kinda boring. That's ok though, because I have a lot of other animes and mangas that I'm following. If the end is as sucky as the FMA anime end though....:smallfurious:

Full metal alchemist, even at its worst is simple superior to Naurto. It is a totally different breed.
from
EE

[Illiterate Scribe]

I have only come into Naruto via this. I have nothing further to contribute to this debate.

It's still funny though.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8094/narutocooloriginalav0.jpg

[Mr. Scaly]

I have only come into Naruto via this. I have nothing further to contribute to this debate.

It's still funny though.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8094/narutocooloriginalav0.jpg

Allow me to be the first to laugh my tail off at that. XD

Really, if we can set aside the two stupid protagonists it's pretty good, I'd say. The ninja-ing is a little theatrical for real ninjas, but the main villain is a complete psychopath. Orochimaru is cool because he cares for nothing. All he wants is power and to entertain himself. I almost pity him at times because he's got nothing when all is said and done.

[TheEmerged]

I personally like Naruto. True, in the original, Sakura made me want to jump into the computer and punch her in the face and the fillers sucked, but Shippuuden is much, much better. Right now though, I think that Kishimoto is running out of ideas or something because the manga is getting kinda boring. That's ok though, because I have a lot of other animes and mangas that I'm following. If the end is as sucky as the FMA anime end though....:smallfurious:

Actually, I think the author realizes the story is coming to its natural end and is hesitant to actually wrap it up.

Death of the mentor? Check. Rival completing his "life's mission"? Appears to be check. The "real" enemy revealed? Check. "Surprise" revelation about the hero's past? Semi-check, this one is currently ongoing. All we need now is the dead/threatened love interest and/or revelation of the "true love"...

[Kojiro Kakita]

If only if this was true. According to the latest interviews we have only reached the half way point of Naruto.

[EvilElitest]

If only if this was true. According to the latest interviews we have only reached the half way point of Naruto.

Another filler arch boys:smallwink:
from
EE

[sune]

Another filler arch boys:smallwink:
from
EE

the another... and another... and another... and- ya you get the picture

[Fuzzy_Juan]

of course they are only half way done...they are wrapping up the oldest plot points and moving into the real focus of the new season...the fight against Akastuki. They will learn the leader and join to fight against him and his remaining minions...in the mean time, they have the 1, 2, and I think 3 tailed beasts...maybe the 4 as well, and they are searching for the remaining 4. My guess is that this season will end with eithe the world under akatsuki and the start of a resistance, or a climactic clash that leaves Naruto as the hero...

I will say, things don't look too good for the 5th Hokage...with Jiriya and orochimaru dead...it looks like she could very well be next...part of the themes of the story has always been about the next generation stepping forward to take their place as the old pass on...we could see most all of the older ninja bite the dust.

If they do...my money is on Kakashi being the next Hokage...Naruto is powerful, but there is probably one more 'season' they are gonna yank out...and that means no Hokage till then.

If things are cyclical...like most Japanese tales are...Sauske, after helping him defeat Akastuki will leave...Naruto will also leave for a time and train/look for Sauske/deal with things that happen in the final parts of Shippuden...he will return and save the city from something that probably will mean the death of the 5th/6th Hokage at which time Naruto will lead the Viliage against the threat which turns out to Be Sauske...for whatever reason...and they will once again have it out in the valley of the kings or some other ironic place with naruto winning and finally becoming Hokage...It might be that Sauske was posessed by the remnants of Madara or Orochimaru within him and gets redeemed...it is unlikely he dies...

I wanna see how it all ends regardless.

[Kojiro Kakita]

ah, how can Sasuke be possessed by a guy that according to the manga is still alive and possessing another Uchiha.

Actually its highly likely that because Naruto is a shounen show, Sasuke and Naruto will be friends at the end of the series, just like Gaara (GOD HIS COOLNESS FACTOR DROPPED).

I just keep telling myself one more month and a new Berserk comes out.

[Talkkno]

If only if this was true. According to the latest interviews we have only reached the half way point of Naruto.

That was stated several years ago....:smallmad:
Also, for more of the comic i posted earlier... *Flame shield activated*
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/talkkno/Coincidence___or_NOT__Part_5_by_Sra.png
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/talkkno/Coincidence___or_NOT__Part_2_by_Sra.png
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/talkkno/Coincidence___or_NOT__Part_3_by_Sra.png

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/talkkno/Coincidence___or_NOT__Part_4_by_Sra.png

[Kojiro Kakita]

I am referring to the newest interview which states the series is going to take longer than he expected since his editor wants him to do more back story for the characters he introduced (Sasuke's new group). Although Kishimoto hinted that he may just get rid of them to hurry the story along.

[Ikol_777]

While I do not care for the three main ninjas (Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura) I like a lot of the side characters.

[averagejoe]

Also, for more of the comic i posted earlier... *Flame shield activated*

Eh, the paralells get to be more strained.

[Obrysii]

And again ... why even compare the two? If anything, Avatar is a rip-off of Naruto ... Naruto is six years older than Avatar.

[Poison_Fish]

No, no, no, they obviously prevent people from being tang.

Win

speaking of seinen, Gantz is always a good bet. As is Blade of the Immortal, Now there is good writing. Though, you can't quite call BotI seinen.

Still, there are a few semi-unique characters from Naruto I enjoyed before I stopped following it.

[Nerd-o-rama]

That was stated several years ago....:smallmad:
Also, for more of the comic i posted earlier... *Flame shield activated*
*snip*
To be fair to Avatar, about half of that is pretty general tropes. The number of character archetypes that share the same personal details (Amazon love interest with fans, rival's mentor with lightning control and an obsessive compulsion) is a bit above average.

And frankly, I don't care if something is mildly derivative if it's a better story than what inspired it. And Avatar is far and away a better-written, more thoughtful, and more entertaining show (without 200 straight episodes of filler).

[Tengu]

While I do not care for the three main ninjas (Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura) I like a lot of the side characters.

I agree with that. Those three are perhaps the lamest people in a show with otherwise (mostly) interesting and cool characters. At least Kakashi is in the upper tiers of coolness...


To be fair to Avatar, about half of that is pretty general tropes. The number of character archetypes that share the same personal details (Amazon love interest with fans, rival's mentor with lightning control and an obsessive compulsion) is a bit above average.

And frankly, I don't care if something is mildly derivative if it's a better story than what inspired it. And Avatar is far and away a better-written, more thoughtful, and more entertaining show (without 200 straight episodes of filler).

Not to mention that while there are some similarities between the characters (and "some" is the accented word here - where they are not the same, they are completely different!), the actual story is far from similar.

PS. Perhaps offtopic, but anyone knows a movie player that lets you grab screenshots? I want a new, even more disturbing avatar.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Not to mention that while there are some similarities between the characters (and "some" is the accented word here - where they are not the same, they are completely different!), the actual story is far from similar.
See, I don't think I've ever seen any episodes relevant to the main story, so I wouldn't know. And on a very general level, Avatar's story is pretty generic. It's on an episode-to-episode level that it's clever.

PS. Perhaps offtopic, but anyone knows a movie player that lets you grab screenshots? I want a new, even more disturbing avatar.
Oh God, no. I think GOM player has a built-in screencap feature.
Also: I am an emotional masochist.

[WarriorTribble]

PS. Perhaps offtopic, but anyone knows a movie player that lets you grab screenshots? I want a new, even more disturbing avatar.VLC media player has a decent snapshot feature. Some variations of Media Player Classic seems to have one, but I never did manage to get it to work...

[Obrysii]

Hit the "Print Screen" button and then go into Paint and paste it - anything on-screen will show up as an image.

[Tengu]

Hit the "Print Screen" button and then go into Paint and paste it - anything on-screen will show up as an image.

Doesn't really work with movie players (at least not with JetAudio, Winamp, Windows Media Player, DivX, SMPlayer...) - instead of the movie screen there is simply black.

I'll try VLC and GOM. Though I am also tempted to make an avatar from some of the Superdickery covers...

[sune]

ah, how can Sasuke be possessed by a guy that according to the manga is still alive and possessing another Uchiha.

Actually its highly likely that because Naruto is a shounen show, Sasuke and Naruto will be friends at the end of the series, just like Gaara (GOD HIS COOLNESS FACTOR DROPPED).

I just keep telling myself one more month and a new Berserk comes out.

ya right.... gaara will never be the same :smallfrown:

[Obrysii]

Doesn't really work with movie players (at least not with JetAudio, Winamp, Windows Media Player, DivX, SMPlayer...) - instead of the movie screen there is simply black.

This is not true. It is a glitch in your computer, likely as a result of your graphics setting - try changing the "video acceleration" to half or full, or to off if it is on.

Here is an example to backup my claim:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/obrysii/heh.jpg

[EvilElitest]

And again ... why even compare the two? If anything, Avatar is a rip-off of Naruto ... Naruto is six years older than Avatar.

Ok, when the rip off is better than the orginal show, now that is just sad man. Just sad


also by the by, Naurto isn't orginal in the least, so it really isn't a rip off
from
EE

[Kojiro Kakita]

I thought it had already been decided that everything is a rip off of something else.

Naruto rips off DBZ (Kishimoto even admits it. For those of you who do not believe this, look at Naruto's clothing very carefully), and DBZ rips off JOurney to the west.

[Obrysii]

Ok, when the rip off is better than the orginal show, now that is just sad man. Just sad

Not really. Star Wars was a rip-off of old serials, for example.

Rip-offs do tend to be better--I won't speak for Avatar because I have not watched it--but that is simply because they are merely borrowing and altering what already works. They are evolving a proven good -- if a rip-off isn't better than the original, then that is the sad event.

[WarriorTribble]

This is not true. It is a glitch in your computer, likely as a result of your graphics setting - try changing the "video acceleration" to half or full, or to off if it is on.This is also the case with me, but personally I like to make video snapshots without having to edit out the background. :smallsmile:

[Eita]

Go to full-screen.

[EvilElitest]

Not really. Star Wars was a rip-off of old serials, for example.

Rip-offs do tend to be better--I won't speak for Avatar because I have not watched it--but that is simply because they are merely borrowing and altering what already works. They are evolving a proven good -- if a rip-off isn't better than the original, then that is the sad event.

Thats not really a rip off, thats an influenced book. Tolkien was influenced by Norse myths but he hardly ripped them off. I don't really think Avatar is a rip off but i think naurto is just a rehash of already boring plots
from
EE

[Talkkno]

I am referring to the newest interview which states the series is going to take longer than he expected since his editor wants him to do more back story for the characters he introduced (Sasuke's new group). Although Kishimoto hinted that he may just get rid of them to hurry the story along.

Link? the last time i saw something was in the Datebook 2 or some other related publication..

[Obrysii]

I don't really think Avatar is a rip off but i think naurto is just a rehash of already boring plots
from
EE

There is a fine line between rip-off and influence. If Avatar has so many similarities to Naruto's characters, and came into existence six years after Naruto began ...

Just as well: how is Naruto a rehash of "already boring plots"? Care to elaborate?

[Paragon Badger]

...But Avatar is so much better than Naruto. :smalltongue: If only for one reason.

Avatar has what Naruto lacks... decent story-telling.

Naruto has a better setting and concept, but the author coulden't retell the story of 'Macbeth' without needlessly drawing it out to non-conclusive, agonizingly obvious plot devices.

And let's face it, Macbeth is a very simple story. Dude is given the opportunity for power. Dude takes power. Dude dies from his fatal error. :smalltongue:

It's the story-telling that's made it a classic.

[Obrysii]

That is your opinion. Others will say that Naruto has good storytelling - it is not intended for western viewers, and thus we cannot say with perfect certainty that Avatar is inherently better, only that it was designed for the tastes of Americans.

[TheEmerged]

If only if this was true. According to the latest interviews we have only reached the half way point of Naruto.

Notice that I said the story was reaching its natural end and accussed the writer of hesitating to just end it :P I don't doubt for a minute the writer would stretch it out for another two-four years...

[AslanCross]

I can't stand Naruto (and most other mainstream shounen anime, to be fair). Why call them ninjas if they aren't stealthy? I expressed some interest in it at first but the sheer amount of episodes threw me off. Why can't one just end the story?

The amount of episodes also leads to interesting animation compromises. (http://aslancross.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/poster-sasuke.jpg)

[Paragon Badger]

That is your opinion. Others will say that Naruto has good storytelling - it is not intended for western viewers, and thus we cannot say with perfect certainty that Avatar is inherently better, only that it was designed for the tastes of Americans.

Naruto's not the first eastern piece of literature I've read. :smallamused:

I mean, I feel like Romance of the Three Kingdoms advances the plot more swimmingly than Naruto, and that book has 120 chapters! <_< Even the longest battles of the book, Guan Du and Chi Bi, are fluid and no-nonsense.

Can you say the same about Naruto? I mean, did we really need two fights with Zaibuza?

Flashbacks are okay, fine. But...do we really need a flashback of something that has happened in the series? Especcially something that happened an episode or two ago!

And...flashbacks aren't the only way to tell an audience what happened before the start of the story, you know. >_> Anime tends to grossly underestimate their audience's ability to process off-camera events. Do we honestly need to travel back in time everytime we establish some part of the Itachi/Sasuke plotline?

[WarriorTribble]

I can't stand Naruto (and most other mainstream shounen anime, to be fair). Why call them ninjas if they aren't stealthy? I expressed some interest in it at first but the sheer amount of episodes threw me off. Why can't one just end the story?Considering that everything about ninjas is fake anyways, why not reinvent the group with an over the top shounen flair?

They can't end the show, or tell a compact story, since it's under a perpetual arc. Naruto: The Search for More Money.
That is your opinion. Others will say that Naruto has good storytelling - it is not intended for western viewers, and thus we cannot say with perfect certainty that Avatar is inherently better, only that it was designed for the tastes of Americans.Minus the existential angst, I'd say Naruto is an animation with universal appeal, least for young males.

[EvilElitest]

There is a fine line between rip-off and influence. If Avatar has so many similarities to Naruto's characters, and came into existence six years after Naruto began ...

Just as well: how is Naruto a rehash of "already boring plots"? Care to elaborate?

A except everything that avatar "steals" is generic to begin with.
B. Even if it did steal, Avatar is simple better written
C. Alright, generic naurto plots

1. Main characters
First we have a hyper, optimistic, stupid, misunderstood (angsty), ethustastic, immature, insulting, happy go lucky main character, who is totally unfit for any sort of responsibilty and yet most of the world revolves around him, he is able to get away with praticlly everything, his total optimism allows him to gives him the power to always choose the morally right choice (or what the author thinks that is) and inpart wisdom upon small children about the way to live a happy life. Though his young immature nature allows him to appel to the vewiers by resorting to farting jokes and naked women illusions. He stupity never really comes back to haunt him and we never see any suprising insights or cool new ideas from this character. He has a childish crush upon "the female" character and goes out of his way to compete with the rival (all hail lord of angsty). Even when mentally hindered, he is able to be a super matial artist due to a tramatic past and being the main character. he is also able to be compitent when the plot demands it due to deus ex machina, oh i'm sorry, i mean the power of friendship. But he is the first ninja to wear orange i think

The wanna be loner. Don't even get my started

And the girl. She is a girl, has a crush on mr. emo, Naurto has a crush on her, and she doesn't do anything, ever. Yeah, thats about it




Considering that everything about ninjas is fake anyways, why not reinvent the group with an over the top shounen flair?


I'm no ninja expert, but i doesn't ninjistu or however you spell it mean stealthy martial arts?


They can't end the show, or tell a compact story, since it's under a perpetual arc. Naruto: The Search for More Money.


ah as the exceitive producers try to squeeze even more money by the never ending show

wait, did i get that wrong?



from
EE

[WarriorTribble]

I'm no ninja expert, but i doesn't ninjistu or however you spell it mean stealthy martial arts?

ah as the exceitive producers try to squeeze even more money by the never ending show

wait, did i get that wrong?According to wiki it stands for art of forbearance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjutsu). It essentially was doing anything to achieve ones goals including acting dishonorably.

No, that's correct, it's a joke I stole from Spaceballs (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094012/quotes).

"Lone Starr: I wonder, will we ever see each other again?
Yogurt: Who knows? God willing, we'll all meet again in Spaceballs 2: The Search for More Money."

[AslanCross]

Considering that everything about ninjas is fake anyways, why not reinvent the group with an over the top shounen flair?

They can't end the show, or tell a compact story, since it's under a perpetual arc. Naruto: The Search for More Money.Minus the existential angst, I'd say Naruto is an animation with universal appeal, least for young males.

Fake or not, the "Nin (http://kanjidict.stc.cx/4726)" in "Ninja" still implies stealth. They may not have been able to walk on water, fly or read minds, but they were still trained at least in spycraft (which typically involved simply being the nondescript peasant----not dressing in all black, jumping around in trees). And Naruto's "flair" flies in the face of that. Besides, it's possible to have flair and be entertaining without wearing orange, blowing stuff up and appearing as a nude, blonde girl.

I can't argue with your second statement. Obviously they don't end it because they make money off it. (Kind of why they still make Gundam 30 years after it started, though they do have the decency to have 52-episode series instead. Of course, quality is sadly not universal in Gundam either.) Still, the length is one of the things that made me throw it off in the first place.

On a more amusing note, I once made one of my Sasuke fangirl students cry by casually remarking that Sasuke looked like a girl. o_o

Though yes. It does seem to be universally appealing to preteen boys, though why any of them would fantasize they were Naruto is beyond me.

[WarriorTribble]

Fake or not, the "Nin (http://kanjidict.stc.cx/4726)" in "Ninja" still implies stealth. They may not have been able to walk on water, fly or read minds, but they were still trained at least in spycraft (which typically involved simply being the nondescript peasant----not dressing in all black, jumping around in trees). And Naruto's "flair" flies in the face of that. Besides, it's possible to have flair and be entertaining without wearing orange, blowing stuff up and appearing as a nude, blonde girl.Ninjutsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjutsu) means art of forbearance, and it shares the same nin kanji with ninja, I think it's safe to say they're both using the first two definitions found in the link you sent me (endure and bear). Any implication that ninjas are stealthy is rather recent, from what I can tell historically, it was more accurate to say they were cowardly/dishonorable.

If it makes you feel any better the mangaka stops doing the nude stuff rather early on. Though he did do one guy on guy jutsu recently, equal opportunity and what not I suppose. The rest, well there's a market, but it's not for you...

[Tengu]

This is not true. It is a glitch in your computer, likely as a result of your graphics setting - try changing the "video acceleration" to half or full, or to off if it is on.
[/spoiler]

Good: This works! I need to turn video acceleration off and I can take screenshots.
Bad: I forgot where have I exactly found the frame I wanted to screenshot...
Terrible: I have nothing to contribute to the topic, apart from saying that Naruto Abridged is very funny (though not as much as YGO Abridged).

[kamikasei]

I just keep telling myself one more month and a new Berserk comes out.

...Hang on, what? I require details!

[Obrysii]

Ninjutsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjutsu) means art of forbearance, and it shares the same nin kanji with ninja, I think it's safe to say they're both using the first two definitions found in the link you sent me (endure and bear).

Also note that in Naruto, the term "ninjutsu" is that setting's flavor text name for spell-casting [generally Arcane]. And so, as Orochimaru described in a recent chapter, "A ninja is, as the name suggests, a warrior who uses ninjutsu."

Futhermore, a simple definition of a Ninja, as given by Wikipedia, is "a ninja (忍者, ninja?) was someone specially trained in a variety of unorthodox arts of war."

So there you are. The Naruto ninja: a warrior who uses arcane spellcasting or other unorthodox arts of war.

Which actually sums them up very well.

[Lizardfolk Lich]

Last I heard, ninjas started as people who climbed walls in the night and opened the gates for the army to get through. They only got to be so great because of rumors and such.

[Various]

I'll be unpopular and admit I like the manga. I get the feeling the writer wants to focus more on character or plot but he has to keep the action going due to the demands of Shonen Jump's editors. And the series in general suffers for it, but I guess the 8-14 year old demographic doesn't like stories with any development in it, despite how much I DID when I was that age.

I seem to recall some interviews from Toriyama of Dragonball complaining about his editors constantly pushing for the over-the-top-ZOMG! fights at the expense of everything else. If this is the case then I think the series would be a lot better if the writer had more control. The story always hints at a greater depth that never gets adequately explored because its always time for the next fight. The fact that the releases of the manga have lower page counts than it did in the past is evidence to me of this; I would definitely be hard-pressed to come up with awesome fight scenes constantly (not to say that all of them are).

[Athaniar]

Read the first chapters in Shonen Jump, have to say I like Shaman King better. I never watch animes, except for Yu-Gi-Oh! The Abridged Series.

[Shademan]

i think naruto is a victim to editing. it would be VERY diffrent if the editors would cut Ken some slack.

as for ninjas: i find it mildy annoying that the "ninjas" in naruto act more as commando-fighters than ninjas, and that Ninjutsu is another word for "spell" but i ignore it since i find the manga funny.

ive seen the anime as well, and i must say, i have NEVER seen anyone do a BASIC ninjutsu stance :D

[Person_Man]

I login to Youtube once every two or three months and read through narutopedia (http://naruto.wikia.com/) once in a while to catch up on the Manga plotline. It's a pretty complex storyline with interesting characters, which I can appreciate. Though the "de-compressed" pacing of many anime drive me nuts. Seriously, does anyone on the planet enjoy 10 minutes of staring, 10 minutes of flashbacks, two minutes of actual fight scenes and moving the plot forward, and 8 minutes of commercials?

RE: Avatar ripping off Naruto

Yes, Avatar clearly rips off Naruto. And Naruto rips off something else. And that's to be expected.

Writers are generally forced to put things in a context that their audience can easily understand. If you tread too far away from classic elements of a hero's journey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero%27s_Journey), most people watching your show generally won't understand what you're trying to communicate to them, especially if they're children or teenagers who don't read outside of their schools' curriculum (ie, most Americans. I can't speak to the level of Japanese literacy).

If your vision of how magic/ninjitsu/technology works takes more then a few sentences to explain, most people won't understand it, and will be confused when the characters use it. So if someone who is watching your show for the first time in the middle of the season can't just turn on the tv, watch the 30 second intro, and say "OK, people on this world can do X, just like I saw in Y," then no one is going to watch your show. (Or rather, few people will watch your show, and it will be canceled).

[EvilElitest]

That isn't quite true, but writers think its true. Death note and to a lesser extent Full metal alchemist are rather complicated. It is worth noting however, that i think TV show would be better if they didn't underestimate the intelligence the viewers
from
EE

[North]

I tried to get into Naruto. I picked up the first four trades. Didnt do anything for me. Naruto just really really annoyed me. A lot.

[EvilElitest]

I tried to get into Naruto. I picked up the first four trades. Didnt do anything for me. Naruto just really really annoyed me. A lot.

Can't argue there
from
EE

[Fuzzy_Juan]

the only thing that really irks me about the show is how slow the pacing is...Whenever they are following the manga, they streach each episode out to about the length of a single strip...which means that 30 min needs to be filled...how do they do this? Well, they only have 23 minutes of show...they have 1 minute of preview for next episode, 2 minutes of special info, 3 min for opening sequence and closing sequence, and 2-3 minutes for 'last time, on naruto!' as they recap the last episode...so you get maybe 12-15 minutes of show.:smallfrown:

[Rogue 7]

the only thing that really irks me about the show is how slow the pacing is...Whenever they are following the manga, they streach each episode out to about the length of a single strip...which means that 30 min needs to be filled...how do they do this? Well, they only have 23 minutes of show...they have 1 minute of preview for next episode, 2 minutes of special info, 3 min for opening sequence and closing sequence, and 2-3 minutes for 'last time, on naruto!' as they recap the last episode...so you get maybe 12-15 minutes of show.:smallfrown:

...Which is why you watch it online and skip over all of those bits, giving you the plot much faster and making it seem like it actually moves. That's what happened when I started watching Shippuden off of youtube. It went a lot faster when you can skip all the title screens, the previews, and whatnot, and the pacing didn't feel all that egregious.

[North]

The only anime ive ever really gotten into has been Ranma 1/2 and Dominion Tank Police I think...

Oh and I liked Slayers too I think, its been a long time.

[Xuincherguixe]

... Dang big thread. I'm not going to bother with spoilers, because so much already has been.

I love those comics comparing Avatar and Naruto. I don't think the two are THAT similar, but it's still amusing. If there are similarities, it's more likely because the two are about martial arts. Both are full of martial arts mythology. Sometimes, it's the same mythology (that Rasengan technique seems very Tai Chi like)


The two shows are different. For one. The "evil" in Avatar doesn't come from out of nowhere. It comes from confusion, misplaced priorities, misunderstanding, and unbalance. This is more evident later in the series. Think about it. Zuko is after the Avatar because he wants things to go back to the way they used to be. And he mixes that up with honor. When he gets what he wants, he realizes that things really weren't what he thought they were.

The Fire nation starts the war because the leader wants to "share" his prosperity with the rest of the world. Not thinking about what others opinion on it is. In a way, it's just a way of justifying to himself conquest.

The Dai Li hide everything, to "maintain order". I really wish I could put more words here, because those episodes were wonderful. In many ways, it was very Orwellian.

In many ways, Avatar has a lot in common with older cartoons. From the 90s and such. Some of it is blindingly obvious, but it's very sophisticated for a kids cartoon. I think they were trying to capture the same kind of audience that's into Anime. It's one of the few cartoons thats managed to apply Anime elements successfully.



A lot of people claim that Naruto is ripping Dragon Ball Z off. They're almost right. In Japan, they don't come up with new ideas in the same way that other places do. What they do is attempt to improve upon ideas. I admit that to a degree I liked Dragon Ball Z, but I doubt anyone would argue that it was a really, really stupid show. (I found a lot of the especially stupid stuff awesome. Turning into a ball of candy and STILL kicking ass? That's wonderful in my eyes)

Naruto with the Blonde Hair and Orange suit? That's not some random thing. The author was a fan. It's a tribute.

It's a martial arts story. Of course the guy has to train to become more powerful. The fact that the story suffers from the sorting algorithm of evil (I don't feel like linking the TV Tropes thing right now) isn't strictly necessary, but it's understandable. The characters grow from facing challenges.

Like most Anime, it suffers from bad translation. There's much more artistic value in my mind in the original. I will say though that Sasuke seems a lot more bad ass in the English Version.

Also, I might be mistaken (my memory sometimes isn't that great so I may be mixing things up), but I'm pretty sure in the Canadian English dub, Rock Lee WAS explicitly stated to be Drinking Alchohol. I wonder if those of you who get Canadian channels are getting the slightly less censored version.

In a way, I kind of like Sasuke because he's such a flawed character. He's actually a bigger idiot than Naruto. And a cry baby. And a wimp. He's come up with bad answers to questions. And he's not nearly as cool as everyone thinks he is. But, I still think he's kind of cool and his motivations make sense in a twisted way. He has some strong anti hero elements. Unfortunately, it seems like his popularity is taking him in a different direction then he should be taken. Sasuke exists purely as Naruto's heel. Sasuke was supposed to be some immature little brat who was pretending to be tougher than he really was.

Naruto on the other hand, he is an immature little brat. But, he doesn't seem to be going to the same kind of lengths to pretend he isn't. There's a few scenes mind you, mostly comic relief. But I almost wonder if he was trying to look tough, or he was trying to fail. It may be giving him a bit too much credit, but many of the characters have more depth than they appear. Either way, Naruto grows as a character, something Sasuke fails too. While Sasuke cowers, Naruto attacks, and he's scared too. But he's willing to accept, and attempt to overcome his own flaws. I get the feeling that there's not a lot of people that are looking at Naruto for what he really is. He doesn't overcome all challenges because he's the demon fox who's over 9000. He's over 9000 because of his will. The Fox is part of that.

One thing I noticed, the struggle between Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke without a thought is willing to sacrifice himself if it gives him more power, and has been unwilling to recognize Naruto. Naruto on the other hand believes that because he isn't strong enough, Sasuke isn't willing to recognize him. So for more power, he'll sacrifice himself. (This is why part of why I said the Fox is part of his will) They'll burn themselves up.

And it comes up at other points in the story too.

Neither Sasuke or Sakura deserve him as a friend. But I think that's the point.

In a lot of ways, Naruto is of a similar archetype as Superman. Which it pains me a little because I like Naruto and hate Superman. The big difference is, with Naruto there was a cost. And he has to exert himself. Again, often for people who really don't deserve it.


Sakura, not a lot to say about. I kind of like the character, but she doesn't have the same depth as Naruto or Sasuke. I'm glad she stopped being useless. I absolutely hate the Archetype of useless women. And it's really disgusting when combined with the warrior woman archetype. I mean seriously. That one is supposed to be about being strong and accomplishment, despite being from a gender seen as useless. (And sometimes, about not really being women. Which again, pisses me off)


Orochimaru? Awesome beyond words. He's been compared to Azula, but Azula just can't compare. Azula has a bad perspective. Orochimaru was a monster born as a human. (This was stated explicitly). Both are magnificent bastards, but Orochimaru doesn't have an excuse. He doesn't care for excuses, he doesn't need excuses. I heard one person describe him as a Chickenhawk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_%28sexuality%29). He isn't explicitly a pedophile, but you are supposed to get that vibe from him. I hate the stereotypes of looking like a woman means you are one, being gay means you're a woman, and homosexuality is evil. But with Orochimaru? All of this comes together so well I can't fault it. He's not evil because he's caught between genders. He is evil and strange. And, of course, he's a figure a lot like Satan. Tempting people into evil, and disrupting order.

I suppose all three of the Sannin are there for the main three characters. But, unlike Tsunade and Jiraya, Orochimaru stands out on his own. He could be there even without Sasuke.

Not that I've got a problem with disrupting order :P

I could get into a few other characters, but this post is getting huge. Also, I don't think there's as much in most of them.

Naruto drags on far too long, but there's still a lot of stuff there. As time goes on it seems like it's getting far between, but it's still there.


But, I'm not caught up on the Manga. It may very well spiral downhill.


Death Note certainly suffered from being dragged out, and having some questionable writing decisions. But I still think it was wonderful. Frankly it's worthy of it's own thread, which it already has several of.

[Athaniar]

After actually watching 2½ episodes of the anime, I can say it's not that bad. Luckily, it's in japanese, dubs aren't just my thing.

[Tengu]

stuff

This post wins the thread. A very profound and accurate analysis which doesn't really have any points one could disagree with.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Orochimaru = Pedophile. Explicitly stated? No. But check his scenes in series out, he sure spends an awful lot of time telling little boys he'll fulfill their dreams if they come with him :P

Also, part of this comes from a certain inevitable comparison (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/naruto+abridged/video/x1z3as_orichimaru-the-smooth-criminal_music).

[Paragon Badger]

RE: Orochimaru = Pedophile. Explicitly stated? No. But check his scenes in series out, he sure spends an awful lot of time telling little boys he'll fulfill their dreams if they come with him :P

Also, part of this comes from a certain inevitable comparison (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/naruto+abridged/video/x1z3as_orichimaru-the-smooth-criminal_music).

Don't forget all those atomic hickeys he leaves on people's necks. :smallamused:

[Steven the Lich]

Naruto by my standards is an excellent anime. I mean, its complex it has many rules, and it contains many twists and turns. You can basically almost never predict what happens (Excellent example, who would've foreseen that 100 episodes would pass while we waited for a lead on Sasuke, and then they go on with an enitrely new and better show... Masters of suspense).
Shipudden is awesome, and puts the old series to shame with music. I must have Akatsuki's theme from Shipuuden.

As for the tribute to DBZ idea, its actually plausible now that I think about it... however, Naruto is entirely different from Dragonball, since Orochimaru and Itachi are unlike any villains in DBZ or DBGT (more cool but less powerful), and its just one world and many kingdoms and ninja types. Naruto has a similar attire to Goku in color, and he seeks to grow stronger... thats just it.
Goku has no dreams for himself, Naruto seeks to become Hokage... Goku is calm at a normal time (Unless people are being hurt by the villains), Naruto goes off at the drop of a feather... Goku can actually talk to his wife, Naruto can't talk to the girl he has a crush on without being punched, and in the meantime he is blind to another anoyminous crush on him (I need not to say who, for those who saw the show)
Plus, Goku never had a demon with extrordinary energy lying inside of him in a seal that was growing ever weaker (If he does have one, gods help us... or the people he fights and people that surround him in everyday life). Not just that, people in Naruto can't just gather large amount of energy and go flying in the sky.
I can only name one other guy who may be similar (remotely) to a character in the DBZ series... Sasuke = Vegeta.
Naruto is a more balanced series, with villains appearing multiple times and sticking longer than one would expect (Orochimaru survived 125 or so more episodes than I though he would), while DBZ and DBGT just oss off random villains said to be the powerfullest, when theres always one stronger.
Freeza-Cell-Bu (Bu not ugly, Bu beautiful *turns and blows up city*)-Evil Bu-Kid Bu- Other villains in the GT series- 7 evil dragons - and the one and only grand master dragon, Omega Shenron "I do not grant wishes for candy!"- Omega Shenron vs. Gotenks in DBZ Budokai 3.
Who knows what other villain they'll crop up for the next one...

[nothingclever]

Death Note, Naruto and Bleach were all terrible. Death Note especially because the other two are clearly meant for really easily amused little kids meanwhile Death Note actually tries to pretend to be "deep" or "intelligent."

That manga was complete and total garbage. One day after seeing a few episodes of the anime a few months ago and dropping it because of how crappy it was I figured I might as well find out how it ended since so many people said it was good. I ended up reading the entire thing trying to find redeeming qualities of which there were none.

The manga has absolutely no value as a mystery, suspense, action, horror, comedy, sci-fi, or philosophical show. It's supposed to be a mystery yet there is no mystery. Everything is common sense or bull****. The best example is the way L pulls random percentages out of nowhere and applies them to his assumptions. The majority of his deductions don't matter because he says that Light could or could not be Kira because he always second guesses everything and almost never takes any real action.

If Light acts like Kira L says he might be acting like him on purpose to show he's not Kira because Kira would never give himself away.

If Light acts like a regular person he might still be Kira because he's pretending to be a normal person.

Light doesn't have to do anything to fool L because L never follows a course of action until the end. The one time L uses some real common sense he imprisons Light but lets him go too soon since he could've tracked the people Light gave the book to without his help. If he had kept Light locked up longer and never let him touch the book once they got it that would have been the end of the manga right there but L never follows through.

Another easy solution is to simply bust in to Light's house or shake him down randomly or keep real 24/7 surveillance on him. If they actually looked through Light's stuff when they installed cameras in his house the trap he set would've burned his book and he would have never found another copy ending the manga again. If they had someone run up to him and take his stuff or had a thorough search of his belongings they would've stopped him as well. Numerous times he was being watched and had the book but no one ever thought of shaking him down so Light eventually gets away with Ryuk's help to use the book safely while no one's looking.

A thorough search of Light or confiscation of his stuff would also screw him over because if they confiscated his watch he would never be able to get the memories of his Death Note back when he needed them.

L believes Light is Kira from the very start but never does anything drastic enough to catch him which means there's no mystery at all. The only mystery is when the hell will someone use a common sense method to stop him.

In the end all Near had to do was get one single spy to keep a close watch on L's crazy friend and they eventually found and switched his book with a copy they made. The only reason Near's guys were not all killed at the end was the fact that Light's friend always followed an exact routine each day and made an alteration on the day before Light's plan came into effect by checking his deposit box. That was extremely stupid. You would think Near wouldn't leave anything to chance and simply have someone open the box using his vast influence/intelligence and look for anything suspicious but instead he relies one hundred percent on a coincidence that he never knew would occur. If they did not look in the box they could've once again shook him down or searched him as well. No matter what they did they always risked being killed by the death gods since they could never see where they were so it didn't matter whether they were sneaky or not.

Another gaping problem is they don't realize that according to one of their theories a death god could simply kill everyone for Light and they wouldn't be able to do anything so if he hasn't done it yet it probably means he can't or that they should simply have at least one person attempt to do something to Light to see if his death god would step in. That was extremely stupid how they were never willing to risk a life trying to catch Kira yet so many people were dying everyday.

The kids that later replace L when he dies are also extremely stupid. The only reason Mellow wasn't killed/captured in the raid on one of his hideouts was because he luckily found a clueless death god to defend him from the US special forces Light had the president send.

Both characters only had any success because of dumb luck and not deductive reasoning.

Another problem with the manga was that every character was shallow and boring. L, Mellow and Near were all nerds with no lives of their own living through mysteries and the two kids were extremely arrogant and annoying.

Light was also garbage because you find out at the end he is a totally spineless loser when he dies throwing a temper tantrum because his plan to rule the world all on his own doesn't work. I found this part hilarious because I felt like Light in his situation as the book was coming to an end because he should have won the entire time and killed all the annoying characters. Instead they had a terrible ending based on luck where the snobbiest character of all, Near, survived. Light actually thought a lot more than any other character in the entire manga but lost because of a coincidence. I rooted for him the entire time knowing he would lose anyway.

Light's idea of ruling a world through fear was complete garbage because we all know that kind of world is no better than what we already have since no one would do things willingly undermining the entire idea of creating an enlightened society. You can't have a morally advanced society when it isn't allowed to think for itself and develop its own morals since the penalty for anything your ruler doesn't like is death.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

...Which is why you watch it online and skip over all of those bits, giving you the plot much faster and making it seem like it actually moves. That's what happened when I started watching Shippuden off of youtube. It went a lot faster when you can skip all the title screens, the previews, and whatnot, and the pacing didn't feel all that egregious.

Oh...I have the episodes from Japan when they air downloaded...what annoys me is that after all the extra stuff they do, they only have 12-15 minutes of actual show for each episode they air now...and in that 12-15 minutes, they have very slow pacing so that they can average 1.5 manga per episode so that they won't catch the manga in the forseeable future.

It is the way they use the time that bugs me. when you only get 12-15 min of real show...it sucks that of that short time...you know that about 20% of the time is taken up in unneccesarily long still shots and long pauses...great...they are staring at each other while dramatic music plays and the wind blows...then they talk slowly and monologue alot.

Avatar is great because the pacing is nearly always fast...few if any wasted shots of needless reactions and lots of action. they have the same 23 minute shows...but of those 23 min, there is a 30 sec intro and no more than 30-60s spent on 'Previously on Avatar'...the rest is pure show with a preview shown over the credits if shown at all...like most american shows, the credits are fast and short...10-20s tops...

So...Avatar...20min of pure show with good pacing and episodic with a complete story being told per episode with a grander tale woven throughout...Naruto...Epic story, but because of that they take forever to do a damn thing and you only get 12 min of actual advancement of the plot...advancing through the slow spots and needless exposition can cut that down to like...8 min of show...lame.

In some ways, I liked the filler episodes...they may have been written poorly and drawn like crap...but they had decent pacing as each 'filler' was either self contained or was designed to fit within 2-4 episodes. No 3 month fight scenes that span 30 min of 'real time'...kinda refreshing.