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View Full Version : Hiding Alignment ... Misdirection



Craig1f
2008-01-14, 01:12 PM
I'm about to join an all good campaign, using a Neutral Evil Beguiler. He needs to hide his alignment, so I thought I'd have him cast Misdirection constantly to hide his alignment. The problem is, he would need a focus that is Neutral Good, so that he could register as neutral good.

So, does anyone know how to go about doing this? Can he just have some items in his inventory that he uses to mask his own alignment? Are there better ways of masking a person's alignment? He could just carry a plant, and use that as the focus. He'll register as true neutral, not lying, non-magical, etc if he does that.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-14, 01:17 PM
Casting misdirection all the time seems cumbersome. If you must do it that way you could get a pet and use that as well, perhaps a cat or a toad and pretend you are a sorcerer and say it is your familiar.

Otherwise a Ring of Mind Shielding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#mindShielding)should do the trick without all the fuss and muss.

Vacerious
2008-01-14, 01:28 PM
Casting misdirection all the time seems cumbersome. If you must do it that way you could get a pet and use that as well, perhaps a cat or a toad and pretend you are a sorcerer and say it is your familiar.

Otherwise a Ring of Mind Shielding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#mindShielding)should do the trick without all the fuss and muss.



He's right, having to renew a spell effect all the time is kind of cumbersome.

If you're still resolute in your idea, just walk into any Pelorian temple (if you're in human lands, shouldn't be too hard to find one), and cast Misdirection on a holy symbol. Buy said holy symbol and keep it in your backpack, never to see the light of day again. You register as NG, and nobody is the wiser.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 01:41 PM
Ah, a holy symbol. Sounds good.

Now, will that create any unwanted auras? I would think that that would cause me to radiate an Aura of Good, rather than simply Good alignment. I think that would draw too much attention.

I'm not even sure he's going to stay evil. I'm trying to RP the fact that he has a level of Mindbender. He was going down an evil path, but joining the group will change him over time. Right now, he's determined to become manipulative in his pursuit of power, but when he joins the group, and realizes how important their mission is, he'll gradually go towards Neutral, and eventually to Good.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 01:55 PM
Heh, I could just carry a thin lead sheet everywhere, and get the quickdraw feat :-P

kamikasei
2008-01-14, 01:57 PM
He could just be a Neutral Mindbender. The requirement is non-Good, not Evil.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-14, 01:58 PM
I'm not even sure he's going to stay evil. I'm trying to RP the fact that he has a level of Mindbender. He was going down an evil path, but joining the group will change him over time. Right now, he's determined to become manipulative in his pursuit of power, but when he joins the group, and realizes how important their mission is, he'll gradually go towards Neutral, and eventually to Good.

I'd be careful with that. Many DM's, like myself, will take away your PrC abilities if you no longer meet the prerequisites for the class later.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 02:03 PM
I'd be careful with that. Many DM's, like myself, will take away your PrC abilities if you no longer meet the prerequisites for the class later.

Oh you're right. I should ask him about that. The only thing he gets from one level of mindbender is telepathy (which is pretty damn good), and it delays his progression in beguiler for one level, so I can get a level 4 shadow spell with advanced learning, and qualify for Shadowcraft Mage earlier.

Although, most books explain the consequences for changing your alignment. I think that if it does not describe a consequence, then you're not supposed to lose your class skills. For example, for the Monk, changing from Lawful to Neutral or Chaotic just means you can't take any more Monk levels.

Person_Man
2008-01-14, 02:03 PM
Also, you could just roleplay a devious character. You can act Good but secretly be Evil, and the only person who needs to know is the DM. Be nice to your friends and NPCs, except for when you're alone, when you can be as much of a jerk as you want to. Or better yet, argue for Evil decisions (let's kill the helpless prisoners) using the facade of Good (because killing them will allow us to accomplish some greater Good).

Paladins and Clerics don't just walk around doing Detect Evil constantly. In general, you need to give them a reason for doing so. And if you do, that's when you can cast Misdirection beforehand.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 02:09 PM
He could just be a Neutral Mindbender. The requirement is non-Good, not Evil.

Well, although I'm writing the RP just to justify my class choices, I like to go with the story that comes to me naturally. So, the story I've written involves him being a manipulative little gnome, who has gained a ton of power through his illusions and enchantments. He's getting carried away with his power.

He'll join the group with the intention of betraying them. But since there is another whispergnome in the group, he'll become friends with that character, and start to change his tune.

I like "reformed" characters. I had an eldritch disciple that was an evil warlock, fell in love with a chick, became neutral as a result of not really caring to be evil any more. Eventally, he joins her religion (Selune), and becomes good. Becomes a cleric, she disappears, and he has a breakdown. Since he can't bring himself to keep being a cleric, he leaves, but the power of Selune causes him to continue increasing in power (explaining the levels of Eldritch Disciple).

When the party travels to a demon plane, he slowly slips into evil. He feels the source of his warlock powers calling to him, and starts having bloodlust. Each spell he casts reducing Selune's hold on his alignment, and he starts looking for conflict. It isn't until he is able to pray and regain spells that he returns to Good.

Anyway ... this was a bit of a run-on post so I'll stop here.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 02:12 PM
Also, you could just roleplay a devious character. You can act Good but secretly be Evil, and the only person who needs to know is the DM. Be nice to your friends and NPCs, except for when you're alone, when you can be as much of a jerk as you want to. Or better yet, argue for Evil decisions (let's kill the helpless prisoners) using the facade of Good (because killing them will allow us to accomplish some greater Good).

Paladins and Clerics don't just walk around doing Detect Evil constantly. In general, you need to give them a reason for doing so. And if you do, that's when you can cast Misdirection beforehand.

Fortunately, we don't have a Paladin in the group. Unfortunately, we also don't have a cleric.

You're right. I might be over thinking this.

He's a manipulative evil person, not a dumb evil person. He'll have no reason to kill the helpless prisoner, unless he wants to keep the prisoner from revealing some information. The prisoner's life just isn't important enough to risk getting blood on his cloak, etc.

kamikasei
2008-01-14, 02:17 PM
Although, most books explain the consequences for changing your alignment. I think that if it does not describe a consequence, then you're not supposed to lose your class skills. For example, for the Monk, changing from Lawful to Neutral or Chaotic just means you can't take any more Monk levels.

Base classes like Monks don't have prerequisites, they just have restrictions. PrCs, like feats, have prerequisites that must be met before you can take them and, like feats, you cannot use their abilities if you no longer meet the prerequisites. I forget where exactly the rule on this is, though.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 02:22 PM
Base classes like Monks don't have prerequisites, they just have restrictions. PrCs, like feats, have prerequisites that must be met before you can take them and, like feats, you cannot use their abilities if you no longer meet the prerequisites. I forget where exactly the rule on this is, though.

Well nuts. Mindbender is such an awesome 1 level dip. I guess maybe I should find a different class to dip into. I want the character to eventually become good.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-14, 02:43 PM
PrCs, like feats, have prerequisites that must be met before you can take them and, like feats, you cannot use their abilities if you no longer meet the prerequisites. I forget where exactly the rule on this is, though. This rule is in exactly two places: page 16 of Complete Warrior ("Meeting Class Requirements"), and similar language at the start of the Prestige Classes chapter in Complete Arcane.

The problem with this rule is that it can't apply generally. Some examples of why this is the case: the Ur-Priest PrC in Complete Divine, and the Dragon Disciple in the DMG. In both cases a class feature of the prestige class causes it to not meet the requirements to join that PrC.
Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&DŽ rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. The DMG is the primary source for rules about prestige classes. The CW page 16 rule would make a prestige class in the DMG invalid, which violates the "primary sources" errata rule.

There are two ways to handle this discrepancy:
The primary source wins. The page 16 CW rule is invalid, and ditto for the same in Complete Arcane. WotC screwed up, twice.
The rule listed in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane applies only to prestige classes in those two specific books, and to no others.
In any case, the general rule is that PrCs don't work like feats. You can fail to meet the requirements for most PrCs and still obtain all their class benefits.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 02:54 PM
So it looks like I'll just have to ask the DM rather than speculate about the PrC.

Anyway, back to the original topic. The easiest solution is a Ring of Mind shield, or a holy symbol?

Also, can anyone else recommend a one level dip that provides caster progression to possibly replace mindbender? I need to take a one level dip, so that I get level 7 beguiler after I get 4th level spells, so I can take Advanced Learning to get a 4th level spell instead of a third level spell.

Burley
2008-01-14, 03:25 PM
Just use the Master of Masks prestige class. It's a good transition from the Beguiler, and the masks will shield your alignment (or change it) and give you bonus abilities.

Person_Man
2008-01-14, 03:32 PM
Also, can anyone else recommend a one level dip that provides caster progression to possibly replace mindbender?

Cabinet Trickster from Races of Eberron
Insidious Corrupter from Drow of the Underdark

If you're willing to be a Drow or Half Drow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a) and be a Warlock build instead of a Beguiler build, you could go with Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) from Drow of the Underdark. Warlocks can also get Hide in Plain Site as a Swift Action via a feat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352). I know that's not what you're not looking for. But I think it'd be great for someone to finally play an Evil Drow for once, rather then an angsty Good or Neutral Drow.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 03:48 PM
Cabinet Trickster from Races of Eberron
Insidious Corrupter from Drow of the Underdark

If you're willing to be a Drow or Half Drow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a) and be a Warlock build instead of a Beguiler build, you could go with Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) from Drow of the Underdark. Warlocks can also get Hide in Plain Site as a Swift Action via a feat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352). I know that's not what you're not looking for. But I think it'd be great for someone to finally play an Evil Drow for once, rather then an angsty Good or Neutral Drow.

I'm going with Whispergnome so I can qualify for the Shadowcraft Mage class. So I can't be Drow. It's actually a toss-up between Gnome and Whispergnome. The +1 DC for illusions for the Gnome is tempting, but Whispergnomes have so many goodies to play with.


Just use the Master of Masks prestige class. It's a good transition from the Beguiler, and the masks will shield your alignment (or change it) and give you bonus abilities.

I don't know that one. I'll have to check it out. Which book is it?

I want my character to be powerful without breaking the game. Telepathy might be too game-breaking, especially in a low-magic world where this game is taking place. Shadowcraft Mage might also be game-breaking as well, so I'll have to see what the DM says.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-14, 03:51 PM
Planar motes! From complete scoundrel. They're like misdirection, but last about ten days at a time. Plus, they're awesome to lookit.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-14, 04:11 PM
] In any case, the general rule is that PrCs don't work like feats. You can fail to meet the requirements for most PrCs and still obtain all their class benefits.

I'm pretty sure that you are wrong here, but I'll transfer that discussion on to a new thread rather than derail this one.

Edit: Here is the new thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3791681#post3791681)

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 11:04 PM
Just use the Master of Masks prestige class. It's a good transition from the Beguiler, and the masks will shield your alignment (or change it) and give you bonus abilities.

Unfortunately, that one doesn't give full caster progression. I need a PrC that gives caster progression at the first level, since I only need a one level dip.

Riffington
2008-01-15, 03:51 PM
Also, ask your DM. If I had a player with a good story like you, I'd allow you to make up a feat like Divine Grace "choose a deity. All magical attempts at detection show that you are of that deity's alignment."

Or a skill trick "Disguise true nature" (Bluff 8 ranks, Disguise 8 ranks). You are adept at showing others what they expect to see. When targetted by an effect that would detect your alignment, the user must roll Sense Motive vs your Bluff. If they fail, they believe they detected the alignment you were attempting to portray. The effect does not fail, it is the user's perception that is fooled (thus, if an effect demonstrates your aura to multiple viewers, each gets to make a Sense Motive check separately). This skill trick works only when you are aware you are being observed.

Craig1f
2008-01-15, 04:05 PM
Also, ask your DM. If I had a player with a good story like you, I'd allow you to make up a feat like Divine Grace "choose a deity. All magical attempts at detection show that you are of that deity's alignment."

Or a skill trick "Disguise true nature" (Bluff 8 ranks, Disguise 8 ranks). You are adept at showing others what they expect to see. When targetted by an effect that would detect your alignment, the user must roll Sense Motive vs your Bluff. If they fail, they believe they detected the alignment you were attempting to portray. The effect does not fail, it is the user's perception that is fooled (thus, if an effect demonstrates your aura to multiple viewers, each gets to make a Sense Motive check separately). This skill trick works only when you are aware you are being observed.

I may see about doing something like that.

I may consider keeping my character evil, but having him decide that helping the party is in his best interest, since the Humans are at war with the Orcs, the Orcs are teaming up with some kind of undead psuedopods or some such nonsense, and my character, a gnome, will have a much harder life if the Orcs win, regardless of the fact that they are evil and so is he.

I need to make sure that he at least has a reason to stick with the party. If he's evil and they're good, he'll turn on them the second he's given a sufficient offer. I'll probably discuss this with the DM when the time comes. I already have a character in the campaign, but I think I'm going to switch him out soon for a few reasons. Even if I don't, I want the Beguiler ready to roll as a backup character in case he dies anyway.