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View Full Version : Class Ability/Feat Idea: Too Powerful?



Tormsskull
2008-01-14, 01:34 PM
Hi all,

I almost exclusively play Core-only games, so I don't know if this type of ability/feat has been replicated before (wouldn't surprise me if it has), but how powerful would a class ability/feat that allows a character to apply their dexterity modifier to damage with a weapon, rather than strength be?

Frosty
2008-01-14, 01:37 PM
It'd make Rogues and Rangers a bit better. It'd make certain fighter builds less MAD, in exchange for a feat.

I like it.

cody.burton
2008-01-14, 01:50 PM
A feat in Tome of Battle (Shadow Blade, I think) does this if you are using certain weapons and in a shadow hand stance. I don't think it would be too overpowered to remove the restrictions to make it work for a non ToB character.

Talya
2008-01-14, 01:52 PM
The prestige class "Champion of Corellon Larethian" gets this ability as well.

In Star Wars Saga Edition, the Lightsaber combat style talent Ataru grants the same.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2008-01-14, 01:54 PM
seems to me that's the way things work with ranged weapons. As for doing it with melee weapons, I really don't see how it would make much sense.

Mad Wizard
2008-01-14, 02:01 PM
Maybe you hit them in a more critical location, using finesse rather than just brute force?

Reinboom
2008-01-14, 02:04 PM
There was a bit of discussion following my post of a feat for this (that was projectile specific) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63460)

It also doesn't seem to be causing any issue...

ashmanonar
2008-01-14, 02:06 PM
Hi all,

I almost exclusively play Core-only games, so I don't know if this type of ability/feat has been replicated before (wouldn't surprise me if it has), but how powerful would a class ability/feat that allows a character to apply their dexterity modifier to damage with a weapon, rather than strength be?

I honestly think Weapon Finesse should do this in addition to basing attack bonus off of Dex. It's not THAT overpowered, considering that it only works on light weapons. Rogue-like characters with Weapon Finesse aren't gonna be dual-wielding Greataxes anytime soon.

Person_Man
2008-01-14, 02:32 PM
There are already several different ways to do this. Just look at the X to Y thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889&pp=30) (although this thread is a bit out of date).

You should also know that most builds that rely on X to Y are generally weaker, particularly Dex based melee builds. You end up wasting feats on things like Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade that you could have spent on Power Attack and Leap Attack, and the AC tends to suffer at low levels.

In most cases the best way for a Dex based build to maximize its attacks is to use a ranged weapon and find sources of extra damage, like Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, magic spells and weapons, etc.

Dhavaer
2008-01-14, 03:36 PM
seems to me that's the way things work with ranged weapons. As for doing it with melee weapons, I really don't see how it would make much sense.

It doesn't work that way with ranged weapons. You don't apply any ability modifier to ranged damage unless you have something that says otherwise (such as a mighty composite bow or the crossbow sniper feat).

FinalJustice
2008-01-14, 05:05 PM
I'd put it that way.


Quick and Precise:
Pre-requisite: Weapon Finesse
This feat allows you to add your dexterity damage as a bonus to your strength damage using melee weapons. This dexterity bonus damage doesn't rise when you use a weapon with two hands, neither it decreases when you use a weapon with your off hand. Additionally, this bonus doesn't stack with any other effect that adds dexterity to damage, such as class abilities, feats, magic items or spells.

I think that, put this way, it improves agility-type builds, making them more balanced with str-builds, but without an overall imbalance. My only issue about the feat this way is that the finesse pre-req has the problem of +1 BaB pre-req, barring monks/rogues from taking it on the first level, but if you are into homebrewing, this can be easily houseruled off.

Reinboom
2008-01-14, 05:16 PM
I, personally, would give it at least a +2 BAB requirement.
Reason is due to the amount of influence dex actually has (reflex save, ac, initiative) already, allowing more emphasis 'early on' is more likely to imbalance the early levels.
I can think of no other real reason it should be restricted beyond this, however.

For the finesse thing - finesse doesn't need a +1 BAB requirement, in my opinion.

Yakk
2008-01-14, 05:21 PM
Str does 4 things.
1> It adds to melee attack and weapon damage,
2> It lets you carry more,
3> It adds to skills
4> It is a prequisite for some feats

The problem with allowing Dex to damage is that it nearly completely makes Str obsolete.

Adding (Str+Dex)/2 to damage is less dangerous, in that it keeps Dex inferior to Str in some way.

RandomFellow
2008-01-14, 05:29 PM
Personally, I just homebrewed a feat. Reducing MAD is easily worth requiring it being a non-first tier feat (having another feat as a pre. req).



Precise Blow
Prerequisite:
Weapon Finesse, Dex 16

Benefit:
When using a weapon which benefits from the Weapon Finesse feat, you may apply your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier for weapon damage rolls.


@Yakk
Reducing MAD isn't worth more than 2 feats.

Reinboom
2008-01-14, 05:34 PM
Str does 4 things.
1> It adds to melee attack and weapon damage,
2> It lets you carry more,
3> It adds to skills
4> It is a prequisite for some feats

The problem with allowing Dex to damage is that it nearly completely makes Str obsolete.

Adding (Str+Dex)/2 to damage is less dangerous, in that it keeps Dex inferior to Str in some way.

However, Str still has something over dex even in the case of this feat:
It doesn't cost a feat.

-edit-
For the idea feat, in question, again.
I would put this limitation on it:
The effects of this feat do not apply while either making an attack affected by Power Attack.

Since, power attack represents force, brutality, not precision.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 05:39 PM
This is majorly overpowered because it makes strong characters obsolete. Dex should not be added to damage. If you want that sort of thing, you should get sneak attack/sudden strike/skirmish.

The next thing you'll do is pick up endurance and steadfast determination, which allows you to substitute CON for WIS for your Will save. Now you really only need CON and DEX for all your saves, for attack, damage, health, AC, etc. The only thing left is skill points, so you'll want to get a little bit of INT.

It's just silly.

Now, I think a good balance, if you still want to go this route, you could say that "while delivering an attack to a creature that is denied his dexterity bonus to AC you can add your Dex modifier to your damage". This would make sense, since it's basically like a sneak attack. I don't think I'd let it apply while flanking though.

Craig1f
2008-01-14, 05:42 PM
For the idea feat, in question, again.
I would put this limitation on it:
The effects of this feat do not apply while either making an attack affected by Power Attack.

Since, power attack represents force, brutality, not precision.

Well, you can't use Weapon Finesse for anything other than a light weapon anyway, and you can't PA with a Light Weapon, so I don't think this caveat is necessary.

FinalJustice
2008-01-14, 05:53 PM
The idea of putting +2 BaB requirement and taking of finesse requirements it's real nice.

In the way I put, str could yes be dumped, but it's not useless since it goes on damage. This way the dex-based characters could put up a damage output similar to strength-based. And how really overpowered is depending on three stats? Every spellcaster depends on three of them or even less. It just make things a little more fair. Besides, it doesn't render str-based characters obsolete. Their damage output remains superior, just not that superior.

(Unless we're talking about spiked chainers, considering they can finesse it, their damage would rise too much, an issue worth further thinking)