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GoC
2008-01-14, 02:49 PM
What's the first level at which a wizard can defeat an equivalent level fighter in melee combat?
What about cleric vs fighter? Or druid?

The wizard gets 5mins of buffing time.

Isomenes
2008-01-14, 03:04 PM
What's the first level at which a wizard can defeat an equivalent level fighter?
What about cleric vs fighter? Or druid?

I'm guessing you mean a straight-on swordfight rather than using spells. If you allow transformation, then I imagine an 11th-level wizard could theoretically go toe-to-toe with a fighter. But despite the full BAB, the wizard would still lack 5 bonus feats that the fighter could use to crush him in any number of nasty melee ways, not to mention 11d6 less HP.

But hey, the dice can sometimes be your mistress...

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-14, 03:04 PM
Hmmm....

Define "melee combat" and also maybe "can defeat". Provided you mean melee with mutual weapon and weapon attacks at close range, and "can defeat" with over 50% chance of winning, I think the fighter wins all three times in core (non-epic).

- Giacomo

Frosty
2008-01-14, 03:06 PM
What if we take into account polymorph? then it becomes a lot closer.

Lighturtle
2008-01-14, 03:12 PM
What about acid sheat/flame shield?

AKA_Bait
2008-01-14, 03:12 PM
I think the fighter wins all three times in core (non-epic).



What if we take into account polymorph? then it becomes a lot closer.

Yeah. It shifts at level 17 at least when the Wizard gets Shapechange. Possibly before that.

Person_Man
2008-01-14, 03:16 PM
Level 1: Assuming the Wizard rolls very well and the Fighter rolls very poorly. The Wizard needs to hit the Fighter 2-3 times, and the Fighter needs to miss 2-3 times.

Level 3: Assuming the Wizard rolls modestly well, and the Fighter rolls modestly poorly. Round 1: Wizard casts Grease, immobilizing the Fighter unless he makes a Balance check, which isn't a class Skill but is subject to Armor Check penalties. Round 2: Wizard casts Summon Monster II, creating 1d3 enemies that attack on the round he casts it. By Round 3, the Fighter should be dead from the second round of the monsters' attacks. If he isn't, the Wizard casts Scorching Ray to finish him off.

Level 5: Wizard simply needs to win Initiative. Casts Fly or Invisibility. Moves away to a safe distance. Summons monsters to attack Fighter until he is dead.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-14, 03:19 PM
Level 1: Assuming the Wizard rolls very well and the Fighter rolls very poorly. The Wizard needs to hit the Fighter 2-3 times, and the Fighter needs to miss 2-3 times.

The wizard has to be very unlucky to lose even at level 1... assuming he has sold his spell book and bought attack dogs for the money that is. :smalltongue:

GoC
2008-01-14, 03:19 PM
Hmmm....

Define "melee combat" and also maybe "can defeat". Provided you mean melee with mutual weapon and weapon attacks at close range, and "can defeat" with over 50% chance of winning, I think the fighter wins all three times in core (non-epic).

- Giacomo

Yep, that's what I meant. Touch range spells are ok too though.

Don't write off the wizard that quickly though.
At level 5 he can have AC 26, 10+3(dex from Bite of the wererat)+1(haste)+6(greater mage armor)+4(shield)+3(natural armor).
And his attack pattern is:
Thunderlance +11 piercing 3d6+8 (20/x3) with a 15ft reach

Frosty:Yeah, polymorph's fine.

Person Man: That's not melee combat.

I'm trying to find the lowest level at which the wizard/druid/cleric can beat the poor fighter at his own game.

blue_fenix
2008-01-14, 03:19 PM
In melee? A wizard would have to be polymorphed, or at least have a lot of buffs on. It seems somewhat unlikely. Cleric, of course, wins as soon as he gets Divine Power. Druid wins from 5 on, thanks to wild shape + animal companion.

On the other hand, who needs melee?
Fly+Wind Wall+Offensive spell of your choice = All non-casters are screwed.

Frosty
2008-01-14, 03:20 PM
It really depends on howmany rounds the wizard has to buff.

wormwood
2008-01-14, 03:45 PM
GoC said 5 minutes to buff... which means as long as he wants. That makes it a LOT easier on the wizard. Of course, I think GoC also answered his own question with his last post... around level 5.

Serenity
2008-01-14, 03:47 PM
It's the cleric and druid who outshine the fighter in melee, not the wizard--the cleric with permanent metamagic'd buffs, the druid with his animal companion and Wild Shape. The wizard doesn't do melee well at all. The problem with wizards is that, played right, they can almost eliminate the need for melee entirely.

Indon
2008-01-14, 03:50 PM
Cleric, of course, wins as soon as he gets Divine Power.
I'm not so sure. By then, the Fighter is quite a few combat feats over the Cleric, which as noted can indeed be used to great effect.

Divine Power evens out the to-hit, but the Fighter still has the feats, and one more HP per level.


Druid wins from 5 on, thanks to wild shape + animal companion.

Wild Shape makes it very likely, since the Druid can use forms to compensate for both to-hit/damage and health deficiencies, and the animal companion can help to compensate for the tactical and power advantage of multiple feats. I'd say that depending on the level (and thus the equal-HD Wild Shape forms availible) the Druid could tie or fall behind.


On the other hand, who needs melee?
Fly+Wind Wall+Offensive spell of your choice = All non-casters are screwed.

This is why the fighter is weak against spellcasters. The Fighter can beat up spellcasters all day in melee, even the Cleric and, less certainly, the Druid.

But the spellcasters can choose not to be subject to melee.

GoC
2008-01-14, 03:55 PM
GoC said 5 minutes to buff... which means as long as he wants. That makes it a LOT easier on the wizard. Of course, I think GoC also answered his own question with his last post... around level 5.

There's stll the minimum level for clerics and druids. I'm not even sure that the 5th level wizard wins and even then at 6th level the fighter might catch up.

PirateMonk
2008-01-14, 03:56 PM
one more HP per level.

No, actually.


Divine Power
Evocation
Level: Clr 4, War 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.

F.L.
2008-01-14, 03:58 PM
Level 1. The wizard can outgrapple the fighter, and casts babau slime. Death in 2-3 rds.

Iku Rex
2008-01-14, 04:01 PM
By level three the wizard should be winning most of the time. It depends on the build of course.

Iku Rex
2008-01-14, 04:03 PM
Level 1. The wizard can outgrapple the fighter,...How?

filler

GoC
2008-01-14, 04:04 PM
Level 1. The wizard can outgrapple the fighter,

Umm...
how?:smallconfused:

Iku Rex: What spells would you use?

Chronos
2008-01-14, 04:04 PM
Druid wins from 5 on, thanks to wild shape + animal companion.Why wait until 5? Even at first level, and even without cheesy companions like Fleshrakers, an animal companion by itself is a fair challenge for a fighter. Wolf plus druid versus fighter isn't a foregone conclusion, but it definitely favors the druid.


Divine Power evens out the to-hit, but the Fighter still has the feats, and one more HP per level.Divine Power also evens out the HP, assuming both have the same constitution bonus. The fighter also likely has better weapons, but the cleric has other buffs besides Divine Power (Divine Favor, Aid, Bear's Endurance, and Greater Magic Weapon all come to mind). And a couple of levels later, when Righteous Might comes into play, it's all over.

Frosty
2008-01-14, 04:09 PM
GoC: A level 1 wizard can cast Enlarge Person for a +4 to grapple. This is why he can beat the fighter in grappling.

GoC
2008-01-14, 04:09 PM
Chronos:You're forgetting the fighter's magic items. The cleric isn't going to have a +2 flaming sword or a +4 amulet of health while the fighter is.

Frosty:But the fighter probably has +8 more strength than the wizard and the wizard doesn't have improved grapple. These two combined make grappling pretty impractical, especialy as the 1st level wizard goes unconcious with one hit.

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-14, 04:13 PM
What's the first level at which a wizard can defeat an equivalent level fighter?
What about cleric vs fighter? Or druid?

Not sure on the exactly level where they would defeat an same level fighter in MELEE, but a wizard at level one can take down multiple fighters with a low chance of failure with one sleep spell. I'm sure later on with the appropriate buffs it could be done, but the wizard isn't really meant for melee.

Clerics would be level 1. Clerics can heal and fight almost as well as a fighter right out the door.

Druids... I would say the moment they get Wildshape and Natural Spell.

Felius
2008-01-14, 04:14 PM
You're forgetting the fighter's magic. The cleric isn't going to have a +2 flaming sword or a +4 amulet of health while the fighter is.

Huh? Why the cleric won't have it. They actually should have MORE magical gadgets as they don't need to spend on weapon thanks to greater magical weapon.

Solo
2008-01-14, 04:15 PM
You're forgetting the fighter's magic. The cleric isn't going to have a +2 flaming sword or a +4 amulet of health while the fighter is.

Instead, the Cleric casts Bear's Endurance on himself and GMW for his weapon because the Cleric gets spells.

Or else he makes a flaming sword and Amulet of Health for himself.

Telonius
2008-01-14, 04:19 PM
I'd say the Fighter is in trouble from Level 3 on.

Level 3 Wizard, assuming INT of at least 14.

Level 0 buffs (4)
Resistance (just for kicks)

Level 1 buffs (2+1)
Enlarge Person
True Strike
Shield

Level 2 buffs (1+1)
Mirror Image
Blur


The Fighter has a 20% chance to miss the Wizard entirely from Blur. If he "hits," he has a chance of hitting an image instead; minimum 3 images (25% chance of hitting you), maximum 6 (14% chance of hitting you). You, on the other hand, are Enlarged (+2 STR, but -1 to hit). You hit just as often, but hit harder when you do. The first hit is nearly automatic. Assuming a Quarterstaff, he does d8+STR damage at the first attack.

EDIT: Not sure on the number of images now that I look at it ... would that be 3 and 6, or 2 and 5? Still, another chance of missing.

PirateMonk
2008-01-14, 04:21 PM
Chronos:You're forgetting the fighter's magic items. The cleric isn't going to have a +2 flaming sword or a +4 amulet of health while the fighter is.

Frosty:But the fighter probably has +8 more strength than the wizard and the wizard doesn't have improved grapple. These two combined make grappling pretty impractical, especialy as the 1st level wizard goes unconcious with one hit.

Why? If your entire build is based around grappling a fighter at level one, you can have a high strength and take Improved Grapple, if they're human.

Frosty
2008-01-14, 04:22 PM
And also FLAWS. don't forget those.

Indon
2008-01-14, 04:23 PM
At level 5 he can have AC 26, 10+3(dex from Bite of the wererat)+1(haste)+6(greater mage armor)+4(shield)+3(natural armor).
And his attack pattern is:
Thunderlance +11 piercing 3d6+8 (20/x3) with a 15ft reach

Hmm, it's indeed not until level 6 that the Fighter can get Shock Trooper, allowing himself to deal significant charge damage in the first round, so this is a good time to catch the Fighter off-guard.

Let's say we have a Human Fighter (because a feat is better than 2 strength or stamina, let's face it) with, hmm...

Mikey McDueler, level 5 Fighter.

Str:17 (Lv4), Dex: 12, Con:14, Int:13, Wis/Cha: Immaterial.

Feats-
Human: Power Attack
Lv1:Combat Expertise
Fighter1:Weapon Focus - Big 2-handed weapon (Greatsword? The one that does 2d6 damage, I'm pretty sure there's one that does that much)
Fighter 2:Dodge! I'm short on ideas here.
Lv3:???
Fighter4:Weapon Specialization - Big 2-handed weapon

Let's assume:
At level 5, Mikey's using a +1 sword which he can do 2d6+6 (4 strength, 1 Enhancement, 1 Feat)
with, hitting at +9 (5 BAB, 3 Strength, 1 Feat).
His AC is 21 (10 Base, 8 Full Plate, 1 Dex, 1 Shield for a buckler, 1 Dodge).
If he has enough money for an enchanted full plate or shield, then that puts him at 23 with +1 for both.

This is followed by his average HP, which is 36 (10 at first level, 6.5 at each level after), probably much more than our Wizard and enough to take a couple hits.

Mikey looks like he's at a disadvantage, here. He could use Power Attack to even the odds somewhat, bringing him up to attacking a 2d6+16 at +4. So at this point he needs a natural 20 to hit... so he uses Expertise for 5 as well, raising his AC to 26 (28 with +1 armor and shield). But since he can't get the Wizard to need a natural 20 as well, he's at a big disadvantage which his HP advantage probably can't overcome.

Mikey could use some better feat suggestions, though, which might make the difference.

Edit:

GoC: A level 1 wizard can cast Enlarge Person for a +4 to grapple. This is why he can beat the fighter in grappling.

At level 1, the Wizard has a good chance of dying before he can make a touch attack against AC 11, suffering from a -1 to hit from being large size. Meanwhile the Fighter gets free to-hit/damage against him.

Edit again: and can probably kill the Wizard in one hit, as Max HP for a level 1 Wizard with 18 con is 8, less than a fighter with a Falchion and 16 Str deals on average (9).

Iku Rex
2008-01-14, 04:24 PM
Iku Rex: What spells would you use?It depends on the overall build and the limitations on the fight. (Is grappling allowed?)

Ideas:

Alter self (tren (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=4)), mage armor, shield and possibly cat's grace and protection from X for AC and false life for temporary hit points. Fist of stone (SC) or bull's strength for better AB. Wraithstrike (SC) to bypass armor, especially with natural attacks from the tren form. Maybe heroics (SC) for some fighter feats. Create magic tattoo (SC) if he has gold. Blade of blood (PHBII) or burning rage (PHBII) + energy resistance are also possibilities. Enlarge Person for size, mirror image for defense - the list goes on.

You'll notice that a 2nd level wizard can't cast that many spells, so the exact setup would depend on the build. I'd probably go with a focused specialist (CMag) transmuter.

Iku Rex
2008-01-14, 04:26 PM
And also FLAWS. don't forget those.Flaws are variant rules. They're not part of the default official DnD rules.

GoC
2008-01-14, 04:36 PM
Instead, the Cleric casts Bear's Endurance on himself and GMW for his weapon because the Cleric gets spells.

Or else he makes a flaming sword and Amulet of Health for himself.

He can make them?:smalleek:
Well at least the fighter get's power attack.

Indon: Switch 3 from Int into Str and then his damage goes up by 2 and his attack by 1.

Iku Rex: Think you can beat the level 6 fighter though?:smallbiggrin:
And you'd need to be level 4 to alter self into a tren.

Iku Rex
2008-01-14, 04:39 PM
And you'd need to be level 4 to alter self into a tren.Good catch. Troglodyte then.

Deepblue706
2008-01-14, 04:41 PM
If the Fighter has a mount, does that still count as melee, for these purposes? A lance + charge could spell death for a number of foes, if he is not unhorsed or disabled quickly.

Thinker
2008-01-14, 04:51 PM
Wizard
Level 1:
Race: Wood Elf (+2 Str, -2 Int)
Stats (27pt buy): Put 16 in Str, 14 in Dex, 14 in Int, 13 in Con. Modded stats become 18 Str, 16 Dex, 11 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha.
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Guisarme)
Spells: Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon
Strategy: During buff-time cast Enlarge Person and Magic Weapon. The wizard's to-hit is +6 (+5 strength, +1 Magic Weapon) and deals 2d4+8 damage [13 average]. Winning initiative is still up in the air, but he has a decent chance of doing so. He also has at least the same strength as the fighter, has greater reach, and can attack the fighter with an AoO if he survived the first attack. I'd say >50% chance of winning.
-----
Cleric
Level 1:
Race: Half-Orc
Stats (27pt buy): Put 16 in Str, 14 in Dex, 14 in Con, 13 in Wis. Modded stats become 18 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 6 Int, 13 Wis, 6 Cha.
Feats: Take Destruction and Luck domains. Weapon Focus (Longspear)
Spells: Magic Weapon, Divine Favor
Strategy: Buff with Magic Weapon and Shield of Faith during the buff time. If you lose initiative, reroll using Luck Domain. Smite with the first attack for +10 to hit (+4 Strength, +4 Smite, +1 Magic Weapon, +1 Divine Favor) and deal 1d8 + 9 damage [13.5 average]. It might not kill him during the first attack if he has a good constitution, but the Cleric has a better to hit and comparable AC (with armor). This one is better than the wizard so again I'd give it >50% chance of winning.
-----
Druid
Level 1:
Race: Halfling
Stats (27pt buy): Put 10 in Str, 14 in Dex, 16 in Con, 13 in Wis. Modded Stats are 8 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis, 8 Cha.
Feats: Animal Companion: Riding Dog, ???.
Spells: Magic Fang, Longstrider
Strategy: Buff Longstrider on self and Magic Fang on the riding dog. Have it kill the fighter while staying away from it. I'm rushed while making this last one so it could probably be improved greatly.

-----
None of these would be able to fill in for a melee role. They would probably be able to defeat a single fighter once in a day, but that is subject to several random factors as well as the other fighter's build. Depending on starting distance a mounted fighter's build would probably walk all over these.

Indon
2008-01-14, 05:15 PM
Indon: Switch 3 from Int into Str and then his damage goes up by 2 and his attack by 1.

I was assuming an array with the highest stat at 16.

If, say, we could work with, say, a 27 point buy like Thinker does:

I couldn't think of good early feats anyway, so let's make him a Half-Orc.

Greedo Shotfirst, Half-Orc Fighter 1.

Strength:18+2
Dexterity:13
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 8-2
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 8-2

For his level 1 feats, he takes Power Attack and Weapon Focus: Greatsword.

He attacks at +7, for 2d6+7 damage with his greatsword.
He can't afford Full Plate yet, even if he rolls all max for his cash, so he gets Half-Plate for +7 AC with no Dex bonus. :( He has a mere 17 AC as a result.

Just to kill Thinker's Wizard, he buys a Guisarme himself and switches weapons during the buffing time. If he goes first, he likely kills the Wizard in one blow. If he goes second, he has under 50% chance to be hit (+5 to hit [-1 size] vs 17 AC, and 10 HP, so has a chance to survive), and then takes a 5-foot step and hits the Wizard (+6 to hit vs. 12 AC, +3 Dex -1 Size), one-shotting him (minimum 9 damage, dropping the Wizard below 0).

Thinker's Cleric has a good chance simply because he's likely to win initiative, though Greedo has a slightly better chance to survive the Cleric's attack than the Cleric has to survive his.

Greedo one-shots the riding dog with his Guisarme, waits for Longstrider to fade, then chases down and kills the 20-base-speed halfling. Thinker, you no doubt can do better.

Necromas
2008-01-14, 05:17 PM
With access to splatbooks, at least spell compendium, the wizard should be able to beat the fighter by level 5 through the proper use of buffs and a few good offensive spells, even with the crutch of having to stay in melee range.

Winning initiative is a non-issue since the wizard would have invisibility from the buff time, and even if he has to be within 5ft of the fighter to be considered in melee range, the fighter has 8 squares to choose from just to guess where the wizard is. Swift invisibility would also prevent the fighter from readying actions to interrupt spell casting.

If the wizard were level 3, the strategy would consist of casting invisibility during the buff period and then praying on the fighters will save for a one shot KO.

Everything is iffy though, because there are too many options for either the fighters or the wizards builds, with varying strengths and weaknesses that the other build may or may not be built to take advantage of.

Magic items throw everything off as well, but it would probably end up in the wizards favor with the use of wands and scrolls.

GoC
2008-01-14, 06:19 PM
If the Fighter has a mount, does that still count as melee, for these purposes? A lance + charge could spell death for a number of foes, if he is not unhorsed or disabled quickly.

No that's not really melee.

In response to thinker:
Fighter1
Level 1:
Race: Orc (+4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha, -2 Wis)
Stats (27pt buy): Put 14 in Str, 16 in Dex, 9 in Int, 16 in Con. Modded stats become 18 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 7 Int, 6 Wis, 6 Cha.
Feats: Dodge, Weapon focus (Greatsword)

AC 10+3(dex)+4(armor)+1(dodge)=18
Attack +6 2d6+6
hp 13

Fighter2
Level 1:
Race: halfling (-2 Str, +2 Dex)
Stats (27pt buy): Put 16 in Str, 16 in Dex, 9 in Int, 14 in Con. Modded stats become 14 Str, 18 Dex, 14 Con, 9 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha.
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse

AC 10+4(dex)+1(size)+4(armor)+1(dodge)+2(shield)=22
Attack +6 1d6+2
hp 12

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-14, 06:21 PM
Seriously, guys...

check out this thread which shows quite impressively what a fighter at high levels can do
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706

If you try as a caster to win vs such a fighter in MELEE, you have already lost.

On the 1st level thing: Indon has already put it up quite correctly.

Or, you could assume a 1st level human fighter with combat reflexes, improved initiative and spiked chain feats with STR 18 and DEX 12, also using an enlarge effect (via a potion). It is quite likely that the caster will not even get close enough to be able to melee. And an animal companion by itself vs the fighter? Laughable at any level.

- Giacomo

Starbuck_II
2008-01-14, 06:30 PM
Or, you could assume a 1st level human fighter with combat reflexes, improved initiative and spiked chain feats with STR 18 and DEX 12, also using an enlarge effect (via a potion). It is quite likely that the caster will not even get close enough to be able to melee. And an animal companion by itself vs the fighter? Laughable at any level.

- Giacomo

To be fair, the AC will having higher armor class at low levels.

GoC
2008-01-14, 06:47 PM
check out this thread which shows quite impressively what a fighter at high levels can do
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706
Pierce Magical Protection/Concealment, the most irrational feat in any book I've ever read.
Seriously, he hates magic and thus can pierce magical protection? And see invisible creatures? And automaticaly dispel mage armor and polymorph?! And yet still uses magic items??!! WTF?!:smallconfused:


If you try as a caster to win vs such a fighter in MELEE, you have already lost.
Obviously. Those feats are just so stupid Pun-Pun suddenly starts making sense...

I love how he said is:

No caster can say “Stay There” to a Great Wyrm Red Dragon, and watch them stew, and from out of their reach, too.
Does anyone want to tell me how this is physicaly possible?!
Is he diplomancing it to stay there? Is he using magic? Is he threatening it? Is he holding it down? Then what is he doing to make the dragon stay there?!:smallfurious:

PirateMonk
2008-01-14, 07:20 PM
Seriously, guys...

check out this thread which shows quite impressively what a fighter at high levels can do
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706

Yes, I know, beyond core and with a huge degree of optimization, a high level fighter has a small chance of defeating a caster of equal level.

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-14, 07:32 PM
Yes, I know, beyond core and with a huge degree of optimization, a high level fighter has a small chance of defeating a caster of equal level.

Strange. And here I thought that this thread was about huge degrees of optimization to give casters some chance of overcoming a fighter in melee (which I frankly believe is not possible).

- Giacomo

GoC
2008-01-14, 07:55 PM
Strange. And here I thought that this thread was about huge degrees of optimization to give casters some chance of overcoming a fighter in melee (which I frankly believe is not possible).

- Giacomo

Nope it's not.
The little 5th level wizard I mention just uses a few spells from Spell Compedium and the PHB.

F.L.
2008-01-14, 08:01 PM
http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=651 is how a wizard grapples. I've always liked this build (due to the insanity of it).

Sorry for the delay, found it necessary to sleep. Now if only I had a template or PrC that eliminated that need...

Roderick_BR
2008-01-14, 08:11 PM
You'll notice that a 2nd level wizard can't cast that many spells, so the exact setup would depend on the build. I'd probably go with a focused specialist (CMag) transmuter.
A low level wizard could spend a bit on some low level scrolls, or even make them himself, to cover the spells he can't cast.


He can make them?:smalleek:
Well at least the fighter get's power attack.
Well at least I have chicken :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, the fighter is obviously underpowered in D&D. Not enough good stuff, and the little he can do can be off-staged anyday by the right spell in a wizard's list. I'd call the spellcasting system in D&D a "what where they smoking?"

PirateMonk
2008-01-14, 08:36 PM
http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=651 is how a wizard grapples. I've always liked this build (due to the insanity of it).

That's awesome. And, yes, insane.

Brom
2008-01-14, 08:47 PM
Ok, so assuming two human combatants, with the highest scores being sixteen:

Wizard:

Name: Yahoo
Race: Human
Class: Conjurer (Banned Necromancy/Enchantment)
Stats: INT 16 DEX 14 CON 12 STR 10 CHA 8 WIS 8
Relevant gear: Quarterstaff, spells
Feats: Imp. Initiative, Combat Casting
HP: 5
AC: 16 (W/ Mage Armor)
Tactic: Spam Shocking Grasp ((Enemy AC is 11, roll of 9 required for hit)

Fighter:

Name: Google
Race: Human
CLass: Fighter
HP: 12
AC: 15
Stats: STR 16, CON 14, DEX 12, WIS 10, CHA 8, INT 8
Relevant gear: Greatsword, Chain Shirt
Feats: Power Attack, Wep Fcs (G-sword), Quick Draw

My prediction:

Round 1 goes to Wizard with a +6 Initiative. Wizard casts a Shocking Grasp spell. Wizard hits. 4 damage dealt.
Round 2 goes to Fighter. Fighter Attacks, has a +5 to hit. Needs an 11 to hit, slightly higher than what the Wizard needs. We'll call it a miss.
Round 2. Another grasp. Fighter takes 3 points of damage. He's still got 5 HP. Just as much as the Wizard. Cute.
Round 4. Fighter Attacks, hits. Minimum damage he can do, assuming two hands? +4 for strength & two handed grip, and a roll of 1 on both D6's. At the very least, he'll KO the Wizard. At the most, he'll decapitate the jerk.

Fighter should with spec's kill the Wizard at lv 1. It should only get easier from there.

Saph
2008-01-14, 08:55 PM
I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but five minutes buffing time is very unrealistic.

In my experience, taken as an average over lots and lots of fights over several campaigns, a spellcaster can count on about one round of buffing time before most fights. Sometimes it's two, but just as often it's zero (the enemies start within charge range and are in melee immediately).

Sure, you occasionally get situations where you're free to buff yourself up with every one of your spells and then go in when you choose, but usually this is just a sign that the fight is so tough you're going to need all the buffs just to survive. And if it's an equal-CR fight where you have all the time you need, have all the spells you need, and can start the battle at a time and place of your choosing, then it probably wasn't a very challenging encounter in the first place.

- Saph

GoC
2008-01-14, 09:31 PM
But seriously, the fighter is obviously underpowered in D&D. Not enough good stuff, and the little he can do can be off-staged anyday by the right spell in a wizard's list. I'd call the spellcasting system in D&D a "what where they smoking?"

I'd say "what were they smoking when they included non-magical people as a viable alternative to mages in a high magic campaing?!". A 20th level wizard can beat a fighter of nigh-infinite level. And interestingly I once statted out a hero I designed in D&D. Despite her skin not being impervious to things like grenades, her CR was literally off the charts. She TPKed a 100th level party in a simulation I ran!:smalleek:

Jack_Simth
2008-01-14, 09:36 PM
In melee? A wizard would have to be polymorphed, or at least have a lot of buffs on. It seems somewhat unlikely. Cleric, of course, wins as soon as he gets Divine Power. Druid wins from 5 on, thanks to wild shape + animal companion.

On the other hand, who needs melee?
Fly+Wind Wall+Offensive spell of your choice = All non-casters are screwed.
That's not entirely true. Wind Wall "only" gives a 30% miss chance for projectiles other than arrows or bolts - so throwing daggers, sling stones, and Javelins still have reasonable to-hit odds. And as it's not concealment, that Rogue who picked up UMD and a wand of Greater Invisiblity can still sneak attack (provided the Wizard isn't using spells not previously mentioned, such as See Invisibility).

Likewise, a potion of Fly will help anybody.

Chronos
2008-01-14, 10:00 PM
Not sure on the exactly level where they would defeat an same level fighter in MELEE, but a wizard at level one can take down multiple fighters with a low chance of failure with one sleep spell. I'm sure later on with the appropriate buffs it could be done, but the wizard isn't really meant for melee.Sleep is only useful if you have some meatshields or other way to keep the enemies off of you, since it takes a full round to cast. Even if you win initiative, by the time you finish casting, you're chunky salsa. For one-on-one, you'll get much better results from a Color Spray.

F.L.
2008-01-14, 10:18 PM
Sleep is only useful if you have some meatshields or other way to keep the enemies off of you, since it takes a full round to cast. Even if you win initiative, by the time you finish casting, you're chunky salsa. For one-on-one, you'll get much better results from a Color Spray.

Plus, some people are elves...

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-14, 10:23 PM
Level 3: Assuming the Wizard rolls modestly well, and the Fighter rolls modestly poorly. Round 1: Wizard casts Grease, immobilizing the Fighter unless he makes a Balance check, which isn't a class Skill but is subject to Armor Check penalties. Round 2: Wizard casts Summon Monster II, creating 1d3 enemies that attack on the round he casts it. By Round 3, the Fighter should be dead from the second round of the monsters' attacks. If he isn't, the Wizard casts Scorching Ray to finish him off.
Incorrect. The monsters do not attack the round he casts the summon spell; they attack the round after. Note that the casting time on the various summon monster spells is one full round.

vrellum
2008-01-14, 11:16 PM
Its interesting how some wizard supporters pick broken spells (alter self, polymorph or shape change) or spells from noncore books and think its fine. But then when the fighter pulls out the antimagicuser feats (mage slayer, etc.) it's not ok.

Good feats for the fighter (not an exhaustive list):
mage slayer
pierce magical concealment
pierce magical protection
exotic weapon profiency: spiked chain
stand still
combat reflexes
hold the line
close quarters fighting
blind-fighting
power attack
shock trooper

With the above feats, the fighter should be able a tough fight at just about any level in melee for any caster, especially a wizard.

horseboy
2008-01-15, 01:22 AM
Druid: My vote is level 1. Magic fang on his wolf. Wolf trips fighter, druid smacks fighter with scimitar. Fighter dies.

Cleric: Eh, cleric is running neck and neck the whole time with the fighter, so it comes down to luck until the well documented buffs come into full effect.

Wizard: Why would he bother? He's secure enough in his masculinity (and filled with enough over-power) to run around in a dress in public and nobody laugh at him.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-01-15, 01:30 AM
It's also interesting how when comparing high level fighters and casters the casters always turn into Planar Sheperds/IotSFV where as the fighter stays...a fighter. You rarely see the fighter multiclass into that barbarian that gets leap attacks, then pick up a feat that lets him have UMD as a class skill and give him a few scrolls of fly and enlarge person (or hell if were playing the buff game at higher levels give him scrolls of righteous might, divine favor, overland flight, mirror image, and displacement/greater invisibility), beat me now cleric! Also since he dosen't need winged boots anymore, he's got boots of speed so he's perma hasted. Combine that with a spiked chain specialist, and suddenly the fighter gets a whole lot scarier. Remember this guy buffed through the fing roof, still has power attack, shock trooper, combat expertise, improved trip/disarm/sunder, and ewp spiked chain. He is now a flying, invisible, pouncing terror with 20' reach, shocktrooper, power attack, and mammoth bonuses to hit. targeting him is a bitch and a half cause he's got mirror images. The problem with claiming that your wizard is an omnipotent being of doom is that most of his class abilities are accessible to everyone else given the right build and the right price. I admit that the cheese that is that spell that warns you of all hostile intent towards you in a few miles radius beats the fighter, but before level 17 the fighter could be a living terror. Oh and because he's a fighter, he of course has the feats to burn on all the mage slaying feats to, just for fun.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-15, 01:36 AM
Level 13, Wizard picks up Forcecage, combos with improved init, a quickened dimension lock and a boosted dex. He now has DAYS to kill you. Good luck.

Deepblue706
2008-01-15, 01:39 AM
Level 13, Wizard picks up Forcecage, combos with improved init, a quickened dimension lock and a boosted dex. He now has DAYS to kill you. Good luck.

Wait, and that's melee how? Are we running a montage of how Mr. Wizard trains like Rocky Balboa so he can punch out Mr. Fighter when he's finally free?

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-01-15, 01:44 AM
elven wizard...level 1...16 dex, 16-18 intel... no strength penalty...Enlarge person, mage armor, shield

use a longsword cause you can. gives you a 20AC, +0 to hit and a 10' reach with a bonus to damage of +1 at least. A fighter won't be able to have any more than 18 AC or so...and at most can have a +7 to hit for half orc fighters with a weapon focus...a grapple will be about even due to the size mod...straight up fight won't be good...the fighter would need 1 hit...mage would need 2 or 3 or one good crit.

Or...if mounted counts as melee...huiman...true strike from a scroll (for the round before combat begins) and memorized as well, improved init, weapon prof: lance, mage armor and shield (from scrolls cast before battle)...win init and charge them with the lance...you will hit dealing 2d8 damage...if you have a strength bonus...all the better. You will get an attack of oppertunity if you are lucky as they step closer with anything other than a 5' step. Hopefully that charge killed them...otherwise..ride off and cast true strike again for another charge in a moment...pray they don't hit you when you do...

Talic
2008-01-15, 01:47 AM
Well, assuming a 100' Arena, and no prebuff time, I'd go with level 7.

Round 1, wizard casts fly.
Round 2, Wizard flies to center of ring, 20 feet up, outside melee, casts cat's grace.
Round 3, wizard casts ray of exhaustion, hits fighter.
Round 4, wizard casts improved invisibility.
Round 5-10, wizard flies to fighter's location, casts touch spell, delivers touch spell. Fighter cannot full run because he is at the very least, fatigued.

Ray of exhaustion is only to prevent the fighter from evading the melee while imp invis is in effect.

Other selections include blind/deaf, if the wizard's saves are exceptional and the fighter rolls poorly.

At higher levels, mix in enervations to this. Assume the wizard has weapon finesse (melee touch attack).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-15, 01:48 AM
@Deepblue-He's never more than 10 ft away from the fighter? Plus, that was more at the previous poster who said the wizard builds are all PrC cheese. I wanted to show him how a straight wiz 13 can beat a 20 fighter without leaving core. Granted, that's assuming they have the same wealth and the fighter isn't built specifically to counter that, but WBL is broken, and this wiz is capable of taking on most anything with this strategy, but yes, it isn't melee. Though if you had the wiz recast the spells and then summon monster in his free time, then multiclass...he could keep the fighter locked up for years, reach epic levels, and never be more than 50 feet away. :smallbiggrin:

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-01-15, 01:53 AM
oh...or...level 11...buff up with whatever spells you want...strength, dex...flame shield...mage armor...shield...magic circle vs. alignment...imp invis...when fully buffed...tensor's transformation...procede to hand the fighter their arse in a straight up beat down.

Deepblue706
2008-01-15, 01:58 AM
Plus, that was more at the previous poster who said the wizard builds are all PrC cheese.

Oh, I didn't read that one because it had no paragraphing.



I wanted to show him how a straight wiz 13 can beat a 20 fighter without leaving core. Granted, that's assuming they have the same wealth and the fighter isn't built specifically to counter that, but WBL is broken, and this wiz is capable of taking on most anything with this strategy, but yes, it isn't melee. Though if you had the wiz recast the spells and then summon monster in his free time, then multiclass...he could keep the fighter locked up for years, reach epic levels, and never be more than 50 feet away. :smallbiggrin:

Isn't that presuming that the 20 Fighter doesn't spend his money efficiently? I mean, if I were him, I'd be sure to have a "Lavender and green" Ioun Stone, a Rod of Absorbtion, or a Rod of Negation, etc handy at high levels. With that much cash for magic gear, surely it's not hard for the Fighter to neglect some skills so that he can CC Use Magic Device, is it?

vrellum
2008-01-15, 02:44 AM
Well, assuming a 100' Arena, and no prebuff time, I'd go with level 7.

Round 1, wizard casts fly.
Round 2, Wizard flies to center of ring, 20 feet up, outside melee, casts cat's grace.
Round 3, wizard casts ray of exhaustion, hits fighter.
Round 4, wizard casts improved invisibility.
Round 5-10, wizard flies to fighter's location, casts touch spell, delivers touch spell. Fighter cannot full run because he is at the very least, fatigued.

Ray of exhaustion is only to prevent the fighter from evading the melee while imp invis is in effect.

Other selections include blind/deaf, if the wizard's saves are exceptional and the fighter rolls poorly.

At higher levels, mix in enervations to this. Assume the wizard has weapon finesse (melee touch attack).

Fighter counters with
round 1 Quick draws bow and shoots wizard, does 1d8+3 damage, hits 2 or 3 times.
round 2 rapid shoots wizard with longbow, hits 2-3 times and does 1d8+3/hit

That's around 5 hits for damage of 5d8+15 = 37
Wizard has 4 (1st level) + 6d4 + 14 hp = 33 hp, wizard dies.

Yes I know this isn't melee, but neither is ray of exhaustion, so we're even.

vrellum
2008-01-15, 02:46 AM
oh...or...level 11...buff up with whatever spells you want...strength, dex...flame shield...mage armor...shield...magic circle vs. alignment...imp invis...when fully buffed...tensor's transformation...procede to hand the fighter their arse in a straight up beat down.

reach weapon
mage slayer
pierce magical protection
pierce magical concealment

dead mage

Talic
2008-01-15, 02:50 AM
Fighter counters with
round 1 Quick draws bow and shoots wizard, does 1d8+3 damage, hits 2 or 3 times.
round 2 rapid shoots wizard with longbow, hits 2-3 times and does 1d8+3/hit

That's around 5 hits for damage of 5d8+15 = 37
Wizard has 4 (1st level) + 6d4 + 14 hp = 33 hp, wizard dies.

Yes I know this isn't melee, but neither is ray of exhaustion, so we're even.
Difference being, all damage dealt by wizard is in melee. However, Mage could just as easily change round 2 to imp invis, protection from arrows, or wind wall, one of which was already used in the plan provided above. Just now Forego the cat's grace, and do the ray of exhaustion after imp invis.

There's a difference between buff/debuff effects and damage effects.

Further, Assume this wizard has a 14 int and a 16 con. Every spell in the build is assuming that the fighter passes all saves anyway, so save DC is irrelevant. That's 6d4 + 21, or 40 HP.

vrellum
2008-01-15, 03:09 AM
Difference being, all damage dealt by wizard is in melee. However, Mage could just as easily change round 2 to imp invis, protection from arrows, or wind wall, one of which was already used in the plan provided above. Just now Forego the cat's grace, and do the ray of exhaustion after imp invis.

There's a difference between buff/debuff effects and damage effects.

Further, Assume this wizard has a 14 int and a 16 con. Every spell in the build is assuming that the fighter passes all saves anyway, so save DC is irrelevant. That's 6d4 + 21, or 40 HP.

Still, using ray of exhaustion is not a buff, it is a non-melee attack. So your strategy is not based on melee any more than casting improved invis and spaming hold persons until he fails his save then doinig a coup de grace on him.

OK, the wizard has a 16 con and is not dead. However, he has only 3 hp left... not looking good.

Besides, the fighter with mage slayer, pierce magical concealment and pierce magical protection will probably still beat you, even if he doesn't use a bow while you're shooting at him with magic rays. Throw in shield specialization and shield ward and you'll have some trouble landing your touch attacks.

What if the fighter wins initiative? What if the fighter has some potions (invisibility, blur, etc.)?

Talic
2008-01-15, 03:16 AM
Still, using ray of exhaustion is not a buff, it is a non-melee attack. So your strategy is not based on melee any more than casting improved invis and spaming hold persons until he fails his save then doinig a coup de grace on him.

OK, the wizard has a 16 con and is not dead. However, he has only 3 hp left... not looking good.

Besides, the fighter with mage slayer, pierce magical concealment and pierce magical protection will probably still beat you, even if he doesn't use a bow while you're shooting at him with magic rays. Throw in shield specialization and shield ward and you'll have some trouble landing your touch attacks.

What if the fighter wins initiative? What if the fighter has some potions (invisibility, blur, etc.)?

Well, if it's non-core, I could always go polymorph ftw.
As far as fighter winning initiative? From 100 feet he cannot charge. If he breaks contest rules by doing a damaging attack at non-melee, then round 1 is improved invisibility.

You're right, Ray of exhaustion is not a buff. It's a debuff. I.E. Reducing the fighter's effectiveness without actually hurting him. Fighters are based on their strength. They are based on their equipment.

Mages are based on their magical protections.

You cannot attempt to use abilities that negate most mage abilities, and cry foul when the mage prefaces the melee battle by Shattering your Spiked Chain. Turnabout is fair play.

Muyten
2008-01-15, 05:21 AM
Well a first level half-orc wizard should be able to beat a first level fighter most of the time like this (and yes I know it's not a common wizard build):

Feat:
Improved initiative

str 20
dex as high as possible
int 11

cast enlarge person
cast true strike
make attack with greatsword +21 to hit causing 2d8+9 points of damage. Assuming you won initiative (which you had a good chance at) that should kill a first level fighter.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-01-15, 06:13 AM
Well a first level half-orc wizard should be able to beat a first level fighter most of the time like this (and yes I know it's not a common wizard build):

Feat:
Improved initiative

str 20
dex as high as possible
int 11

cast enlarge person
cast true strike
make attack with greatsword +21 to hit causing 2d8+9 points of damage. Assuming you won initiative (which you had a good chance at) that should kill a first level fighter.

lol...now that is made of win...a half orc melee mage...oh man...I gotta use that in a game...an orc melee wizard...now that would be hilarious.

Talic
2008-01-15, 06:16 AM
Well a first level half-orc wizard should be able to beat a first level fighter most of the time like this (and yes I know it's not a common wizard build):

Feat:
Improved initiative

str 20
dex as high as possible
int 11

cast enlarge person
cast true strike
make attack with greatsword +21 to hit causing 2d8+9 points of damage. Assuming you won initiative (which you had a good chance at) that should kill a first level fighter.
Better off just doing the True Strike. The enlarge is too risky on the buff times. You may get off 1 enhancer, not 2.

Keep in mind, it goes more like this (assuming 18 Str-16 +2 racial):
Win initiative, grease area in front of wiz.
Fighter attempts to move in, gets stopped, likely falls.
OR
Fighter attempts to reposition around grease area.

Wizard moves to reposition grease between fighter and self, allow a full move to reach 10 feet away, and a double move to reach you. Cast True Strike.

Fighter repeats step 1, getting much closer this time.

Wizard attacks, +20 to hit (+4 str, +20 true strike, -4 nonproficient), hits 95% of the time. Deals 2d6+6 damage, or average of 13.

Assuming a max HP non-dwarven fighter with a 16 base con, wizard wins.

Now, it's possible for the wizard to lose this scenario. However, there's at least a coin toss shot in melee at level 1. And this build is all offense.

GoC
2008-01-15, 09:34 AM
pierce magical concealment
pierce magical protection

It's not ok because those feats make zero sense not because their non-core.
Mageslayer probably shouldn't work against stilled silent spells but at least you can understand how it works in theory.

Talic: Debuffs are banned outside of melee.

Indon
2008-01-15, 09:53 AM
cast enlarge person
cast true strike

You have no bonus spells at 11 int, and thus can only cast 1 level 1 spell per day.


Fighter repeats step 1, getting much closer this time.

Why not just withdraw to 90 feet? Your Wizard double-moves up, the Fighter charges and kills the Wizard.

Dunno why you're dancing around a Grease spell, either - it was specified that you have buffing time.

vrellum
2008-01-15, 10:17 AM
It's not ok because those feats make zero sense not because their non-core.
Mageslayer probably shouldn't work against stilled silent spells but at least you can understand how it works in theory.

Talic: Debuffs are banned outside of melee.



"Yep, that's what I meant. Touch range spells are ok too though.

Don't write off the wizard that quickly though.
At level 5 he can have AC 26, 10+3(dex from Bite of the wererat)+1(haste)+6(greater mage armor)+4(shield)+3(natural armor).
And his attack pattern is:
Thunderlance +11 piercing 3d6+8 (20/x3) with a 15ft reach

Frosty:Yeah, polymorph's fine.

Person Man: That's not melee combat.

I'm trying to find the lowest level at which the wizard/druid/cleric can beat the poor fighter at his own game."

You were using noncore stuff earlier in the post so why are these feats not ok? It can't be because the feats don't make sense because no spells make any sense. It can't be because they're broken because the polymorph line is so broken that Wizards can't figure out how to fix it without removing it from the game.

Whoops, I guess I can't read. As far as the feats not making any sense, neither does magic. Plus the polymorph line of spells (alter self, polymorph, etc) are horribly designed. I haven't been following the 4th edition thread but I think they will be drastically changed/removed in the new edition. In the current edition Wizards couldn't figure out a way to fix them, so it just banned them from the game that it is running.

Indon
2008-01-15, 10:34 AM
It's not ok because those feats make zero sense not because their non-core.
Mageslayer probably shouldn't work against stilled silent spells but at least you can understand how it works in theory.

You know, some feats grant supernatural abilities.

Edit: Also, what's the requirements for Improved Toughness? Con 13... is that it? Do you need to take Toughness?

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 10:41 AM
This is all very silly.

I have to wonder what sparked the Great Debate in the first place? If you want to play the melee guy with a Wiz, Clr, or Drd...fine. You'll never truly be as effective as a fighter unless you have buff up time. Casters cannot go straight into combat without their buffs, and do what a fighter does. Clr and Drd only have 3/4 of a fighters BAB. You have to cast divine favor to make up, or wild shape into something with a Str score +6 above what the fighter has a 12th level, and that's just to break even. Ok, but that is one entire round of combat that the fighter has just engaged in. Go ahead and cast Righteous Might, yes you realy are impresive now, but that's one more entire round of combat that you've missed out on.

Yes, high level casters can duplicate, and even exceed what a fighter can do, but they never get the feat selection, and it just takes to long. A fighter does the fighters job right out of the gate. And frankly that's the fighters greatest strength.

If you have as much time to buff as some of you assume, how many time per day can you do that? How many spells do you have? You are missing out on your classes strength to try to duplicate what another class does just fine.

And to add insult to injury, all of this is moot. Who ever heard of a one person party? That's one dead adventurer! Parties are composed of groups for a reason. While the cleric is trying to be the fighter, who's turning undead? Who's healing the rogue who took and unexpected critical. While the druid is trying to be the melee god, who's casting the battlefield shaping spells like entangle, useful at almost any level? It ain't the cleric or the wizard.

So remember, this is all acedemic, and never a real game play situation. Try to have fun out there, it's what the game is supposed to be about.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Thinker
2008-01-15, 11:16 AM
I agree. I have no idea why a wizard (or fullcasting classed character) would want to beat a fighter in melee. The Druid and Cleric I could see as it could come up, but spellcasters don't fight fair. Restricting spell-casters to not using his dirty tricks to his advantage is as bad as saying "make a fighter, now he can only use a simple non-reach weapon and light armor." It doesn't make sense and neither does this.

Shadowdweller
2008-01-15, 11:22 AM
This is all very silly.

I have to wonder what sparked the Great Debate in the first place? If you want to play the melee guy with a Wiz, Clr, or Drd...fine. You'll never truly be as effective as a fighter unless you have buff up time.

I agree. I have no idea why a wizard (or fullcasting classed character) would want to beat a fighter in melee.
I imagine the purpose of this is to demonstrate how pathetic the Fighter class is. Taken as such it is very much on point.

the_tick_rules
2008-01-15, 12:58 PM
the fighter would win the vast majority of these things, but then again a wizard trying to defeat a fighter at his own game is one silly wizard.

Indon
2008-01-15, 01:13 PM
I agree. I have no idea why a wizard (or fullcasting classed character) would want to beat a fighter in melee. The Druid and Cleric I could see as it could come up, but spellcasters don't fight fair. Restricting spell-casters to not using his dirty tricks to his advantage is as bad as saying "make a fighter, now he can only use a simple non-reach weapon and light armor." It doesn't make sense and neither does this.

I think it's an interesting concept for a Wizard to play, though of course, nobody who doesn't regularly make basket-weaving troglodyte monks would ever play it. :P

Chronos
2008-01-15, 01:27 PM
You have to cast divine favor to make up, or wild shape into something with a Str score +6 above what the fighter has a 12th level, and that's just to break even. Ok, but that is one entire round of combat that the fighter has just engaged in.The druid doesn't have to spend a round to wildshape, since he went into his wildshape form six hours ago, and is still in it. And there are plenty of options available to the cleric which allow him to buff without wasting combat rounds, too: Even aside from non-core cheese like Divine Metamagic: Persist, he could just have a metamagic rod of Quicken Spell. First round, cast a quickened Righteous Might, and then charge or full-attack or whatever you were going to do. Second round, quickened Divine Favor, and repeat. Sure, the fighter gets to take a swift action every round, too, but what exactly can he use it on?

Frosty
2008-01-15, 01:30 PM
Well clerics don't have to waste a turn due to Persistent DMM and Nightsticks or evenjust Quicken DMM.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 02:52 PM
The druid doesn't have to spend a round to wildshape, since he went into his wildshape form six hours ago, and is still in it. And there are plenty of options available to the cleric which allow him to buff without wasting combat rounds, too: Even aside from non-core cheese like Divine Metamagic: Persist, he could just have a metamagic rod of Quicken Spell. First round, cast a quickened Righteous Might, and then charge or full-attack or whatever you were going to do. Second round, quickened Divine Favor, and repeat. Sure, the fighter gets to take a swift action every round, too, but what exactly can he use it on?

Well, obviously the fighter never allows you to take a full attack action. With the Spring Attack feats, I don't really care how high your BAB gets, if I force you to move to engage, all the better. By 18th level, the fighter can take three attacks with a standard action, without provoking AoO from up to three enemies. As a matter of fact, if you charge me, I can keep you to a single attack every other round by moving 5ft, attacking, moving the rest of my base move, and taking a move action. Odds are that puts you out of charge range. Or even better, use my movement to put rough ground or cover between us. I'm not restricted to a straight path like charge is. If you can't roll an attack roll, I don't have to worry about how much damage your weapon does. Simple.

Deepblue706
2008-01-15, 03:25 PM
You know, some feats grant supernatural abilities.

Edit: Also, what's the requirements for Improved Toughness? Con 13... is that it? Do you need to take Toughness?

Base Fort +2.

Frosty
2008-01-15, 03:29 PM
Charging lets you move up to twice your base speed. How are you going to be out of charging range using spring attack? Pray tell. And you can charge from the AIR. Wizards can buff themselves with flying ability and then divebomb you if they wish. Druids can fly by pre-casting airwalk or just drinking a potion of Fly or having boots of fly.

Besides, Druids can obtain full-attacks while wild-shaped on the charge easily via a feat (in complete adventurer or warrior)

Indon
2008-01-15, 03:31 PM
Base Fort +2.

Excellent. If I recall, it's also a Fighter feat, which means Greedo Shotfirst can take it as his level 2 feat.

I'll get around to posting Greedo at level 2 eventually.

marjan
2008-01-15, 03:33 PM
Excellent. If I recall, it's also a Fighter feat, which means Greedo Shotfirst can take it as his level 2 feat.

I'll get around to posting Greedo at level 2 eventually.

At lvl1-2 Toughness is better since Improved Toughness gives you 1HP/HD.

Indon
2008-01-15, 03:36 PM
At lvl1-2 Toughness is better since Improved Toughness gives you 1HP/HD.

I want Greedo to have a consistent build from level to level, without sacrificing _too_ much power at any given level.

I'm not quite sure where to take him, either. I know optimally he should probably turn into a spiked-chain-trip master, using Person_Man's demonstrated power combo for trip feats - that would just about shut out any caster (or non) build that tried to melee against him. But on the other hand, I want him at least a _little_, well, normal.

So I'm probably going to make him into a standard str-based 2-handed power attacker.

marjan
2008-01-15, 03:41 PM
I want Greedo to have a consistent build from level to level, without sacrificing _too_ much power at any given level.

I'm not quite sure where to take him, either. I know optimally he should probably turn into a spiked-chain-trip master, using Person_Man's demonstrated power combo for trip feats - that would just about shut out any caster (or non) build that tried to melee against him. But on the other hand, I want him at least a _little_, well, normal.

So I'm probably going to make him into a standard str-based 2-handed power attacker.

Take it at lvl3 then (it's not even a fighter feat IIRC), unless you planed some better feat for that level. You won't make much of it at lvl1-2 anyway.

Indon
2008-01-15, 04:05 PM
Take it at lvl3 then (it's not even a fighter feat IIRC), unless you planed some better feat for that level. You won't make much of it at lvl1-2 anyway.

Do you know of a better idea? I figure it's either that, or Dodge.

marjan
2008-01-15, 04:09 PM
Do you know of a better idea? I figure it's either that, or Dodge.

Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Bullrush/Trip/Disarm, Mage Slayer (if you want the feat), Blind-Fight(for Pierce Magical Concealment) are all useful at low levels.

EDIT: Dodge is better IMO than Improved Toughness at low levels.

Indon
2008-01-15, 04:15 PM
Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Bullrush/Trip/Disarm, Mage Slayer (if you want the feat), Blind-Fight(for Pierce Magical Concealment) are all useful at low levels.

EDIT: Dodge is better IMO than Improved Toughness at low levels.

I have Power Attack, can't qualify for Expertise, am uninterested in the character learning combat tricks (though Improved Grapple may be a good idea), don't know the requirement for Mage Slayer, and Blind Fighting is a good idea.

Hmm. Improved Grapple and Blind-Fight are both potentially good feats.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 04:29 PM
Charging lets you move up to twice your base speed. How are you going to be out of charging range using spring attack? Pray tell. And you can charge from the AIR. Wizards can buff themselves with flying ability and then divebomb you if they wish. Druids can fly by pre-casting airwalk or just drinking a potion of Fly or having boots of fly.

Besides, Druids can obtain full-attacks while wild-shaped on the charge easily via a feat (in complete adventurer or warrior)

Yes, I'm not trying to imply that clerics don't get movement enhancing items, just that the fighter is more likely to have one.

Fighters also can have boots of flying

And rough terrain still stops the wild shaped druid from pouncing.

You know what stops an airborne charge, a tree. If all I do is move through the foliage, spring and back, you still don't get to charge. My point is there are plenty of ways to stop someone from charging, even if they are flying.

Frosty
2008-01-15, 05:34 PM
If they both have boot's of flying, that's fine. You're still not any faster than the caster, and now there is no difficult terrain. And the caster can fly high enough so trees don't matter. If you can't reach a tree in time, the caster can charge you. Druids, like I said, can cast air-walk or also have boots of flying (with wilding clasps) and ignore difficult terrain.

An item in the MiC (Boots of the Battle Charger) that costs 1500 gold will let you ignore difficult terrain while charging.

Fleet of Foot feat will let you make a 90 degree turn while charging, which can help get past terrain.

There are so many ways of getting past difficult terrain it's not even funny. Oh, yeah, Jumping over the terrain also works. Perfect if you use Leap attack.

On a side note, a Wizard can also cast Wraithstrike (or better yet, Persistent it), giving him a big advantage in hitting the fighter.

GoC
2008-01-15, 07:49 PM
Whoops, I guess I can't read. As far as the feats not making any sense, neither does magic. Plus the polymorph line of spells (alter self, polymorph, etc) are horribly designed. I haven't been following the 4th edition thread but I think they will be drastically changed/removed in the new edition. In the current edition Wizards couldn't figure out a way to fix them, so it just banned them from the game that it is running.

Magic is magic. It's not required to stick to the laws of physics.
The Pierce Magical Protection feat is non-magical but allows you to ignore what are essentialy natural laws just like gravity just because you don't like it?
"Ooh, I don't like gravity so now I can fly! Yay!"
Don't think so. OTOH:
"I don't like gravity so I will use the laws of magic/thermodynamics to fly!"
makes a lot more sense.

vrellum
2008-01-15, 08:55 PM
Let's see, we're talkinga about a system that allows (without the use of magic) you to:
regularly survive 200' falls (hit points)
avoid all damage from a huge explosion that is centered on you (evasion)
largely ignore the effects of an invisible attacker (uncanny dodge)
Punch harder than someone can swing a hammer (monk)
run faster than a horse (monk, upto speed 60')
Fire arrows from a bow or even a light crossbow at a rate of almost 1 per second
the list goes on and on

It seems that you want to be able to build wizards that are better at melee combat than fighters. But when solutions are used that counter some of the broken advantages that mages have against nonspellcasters you cry foul.

Many things in the game don't make sense. Heck most things don't really make anysense once you start to analyze them (hit points, sneak attack, monks unarmed strike, armor class, initiative, levels, classes, etc.)

If you ask the question "At what level can a wizard beat a fighter in melee?' and you allow the use of noncore material, the answer is probably "none, at least consistently if the fighter devotes a few feats to beating casters."

If you want to limit it to core and you allow broken spells, like polymorph, then the answer is more difficult, though with sufficient time to buff up an 11th level wizard with polymorph (hill giant), greater magic weapon, tensers transformation, mage armor, shield, haste and blur (you can add more if you like) would at least beat most fighters most of the time. Maybe at earlier levels too.

Since these discussions are usually RAW, not RAI or house-ruled, using the mage slayer chain of feats in a noncore discussion should be fine. They don't break the game anymore than a lot of things wizards can regularly do (polymorph, for example). If you want a house-ruled discussion, set out your house rules and then people can discuss them if they wish. However, you may be accused of stacking the deck in the wizard's favor (generous buff time, use of spells in combat, disallowing of certain fighter feats, etc.)

Aquillion
2008-01-15, 09:10 PM
Level 1: If they win initiative, the wizard casts Color Spray from point blank range and then beats the fighter to death in melee (well, technically, coup-de-graces the fighter to death in melee.) Arguing that Color Spray isn't a form of melee is like arguing that close-combat ToB maneuvers aren't melee... it's a combat ability intended for close-range combat, so what else would it be?

Iku Rex
2008-01-15, 10:57 PM
It seems that you want to be able to build wizards that are better at melee combat than fighters. But when solutions are used that counter some of the broken advantages that mages have against nonspellcasters you cry foul. What most posters here seem to be missing is that such comparisons are not really about a wizard character beating a fighter character in single combat melee. Who cares about that? It's a scenario that pretty much never comes up.

No, comparing the two gives us an idea which has the better melee skills in actual play, where opponents are hobgoblin warriors, dire animals, zombies and so on. Triumphantly holding up the mage slayer feats as "the solution" is missing the point entirely. They don't make a character better at melee combat the way high damage, attack bonus or AC does. They just make you better at killing a very limited number of opponents.

In this case the thread isn't even about "which class is better". That's a hijack. Don't you think the OP knows you don't usually get 5 minutes to prepare before a fight in DnD? Seem to me he wanted to talk about sor/wiz buff spells under optimal conditions, not start a generic class power debate.

vrellum
2008-01-16, 12:27 AM
What most posters here seem to be missing is that such comparisons are not really about a wizard character beating a fighter character in single combat melee. Who cares about that? It's a scenario that pretty much never comes up.

No, comparing the two gives us an idea which has the better melee skills in actual play, where opponents are hobgoblin warriors, dire animals, zombies and so on. Triumphantly holding up the mage slayer feats as "the solution" is missing the point entirely. They don't make a character better at melee combat the way high damage, attack bonus or AC does. They just make you better at killing a very limited number of opponents.

In this case the thread isn't even about "which class is better". That's a hijack. Don't you think the OP knows you don't usually get 5 minutes to prepare before a fight in DnD? Seem to me he wanted to talk about sor/wiz buff spells under optimal conditions, not start a generic class power debate.

Here is the original post:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's the first level at which a wizard can defeat an equivalent level fighter in melee combat?
What about cleric vs fighter? Or druid?

The wizard gets 5mins of buffing time.


So the thread really is about mages buffing up and whipping fighters in melee, under ideal conditions for the mage. This isn't about which is better in actual play. Posts about who is better at defeating other opponents are off topic. You topic is much more practical, but it really isn't what this thread is about.

However, the mage slayer line of feats are good enough to be considered for many builds. Especially if you combine them with a reach weapon and stand still (two other feats/abilities that are good enough to stand on their own against a number of different opponents). Its not that uncommon that a party (or a fighter) will fight someone who is a spellcaster or has somesort of magical effect that makes them harder to hit.

Iku Rex
2008-01-16, 12:34 AM
Seem to me he wanted to talk about sor/wiz buff spells under optimal conditions,...So the thread really is about mages buffing up and whipping fighters in melee, under ideal conditions for the mage. This isn't about which is better in actual play.Uh, yes. That's what I said.

horseboy
2008-01-16, 12:44 AM
You know what stops an airborne charge, a tree. If all I do is move through the foliage, spring and back, you still don't get to charge. My point is there are plenty of ways to stop someone from charging, even if they are flying.

Yes, because clearly there are no raptors in forests. [/sarcasm]

Talic
2008-01-16, 01:32 AM
You have no bonus spells at 11 int, and thus can only cast 1 level 1 spell per day.

Then make it 12.



Why not just withdraw to 90 feet? Your Wizard double-moves up, the Fighter charges and kills the Wizard.

Dunno why you're dancing around a Grease spell, either - it was specified that you have buffing time.
Because you shouldn't, unless you can make it. One of the advantages of a fighter is that the fighter comes pretty much ready to rock 'n roll out of the box. Giving the wizard free time is detracting from the one glaring weakness that the class has.


You know, some feats grant supernatural abilities.

You're absolutely right. They're called Psionic Feats. All other feats grant extraordinary abilities, unless they specifically say otherwise. Do these? No? Hmm, there's that arguement gone.


Edit: Also, what's the requirements for Improved Toughness? Con 13... is that it? Do you need to take Toughness?
No, that was Wizards apologizing for the Toughness Feat. Have you READ that feat??

Yami
2008-01-16, 07:29 AM
Level 1. The wizard can outgrapple the fighter, and casts babau slime. Death in 2-3 rds.

vrellum, you seem to think the fighter has the advantage, but I have not yet seen you counter this arguement.

Character; "I see you wield forged steel, it cannot stand up to my magics."
Player; 'I ready a grapple attempt for when he gets within range.'

The grapple wizard has all the advantages.

GoC
2008-01-16, 09:32 AM
regularly survive 200' falls (hit points)
avoid all damage from a huge explosion that is centered on you (evasion)
largely ignore the effects of an invisible attacker (uncanny dodge)
Punch harder than someone can swing a hammer (monk)
run faster than a horse (monk, upto speed 60')
Fire arrows from a bow or even a light crossbow at a rate of almost 1 per second
1, 4, 5 and 6 are possible just using the laws of physics.
I really hate 2 so don't even get me started on that!
3 makes sense when you realise that you can sense slight changes in air currents caused by an invisible attacker. Unlikely but possible.


It seems that you want to be able to build wizards that are better at melee combat than fighters. But when solutions are used that counter some of the broken advantages that mages have against nonspellcasters you cry foul.
While it makes sense that spellcaster beat people who don't use magic I'm actualy crying foul because certain feats don't make sense.


Many things in the game don't make sense. Heck most things don't really make anysense once you start to analyze them (hit points, sneak attack, monks unarmed strike, armor class, initiative, levels, classes, etc.)
Actualy those all make sense in a way. monks are magical remember?


Since these discussions are usually RAW, not RAI or house-ruled, using the mage slayer chain of feats in a noncore discussion should be fine. They don't break the game anymore than a lot of things wizards can regularly do (polymorph, for example). If you want a house-ruled discussion, set out your house rules and then people can discuss them if they wish. However, you may be accused of stacking the deck in the wizard's favor (generous buff time, use of spells in combat, disallowing of certain fighter feats, etc.)
Point.
The problem isn't that mage-slayer and stand still break the game (they do but that's beside the point) it's that they don't make sense in the universe they're in.

Iku Rex: Thanks. Yeah, I'm looking for good melee buff spells. I'm thinking of homebrewing a mage designed for close combat. He'd be able to activate all his buffs as a move action and uses magic to aid him in melee (magical armor/swords/spikes). He wouldn't be anywhere near as versatile as the wizard and is mostly meant as a replacement for the fighter.

Wow, I've managed to hijack my own thread!:smalleek:

vrellum
2008-01-16, 10:05 AM
vrellum, you seem to think the fighter has the advantage, but I have not yet seen you counter this arguement.

Character; "I see you wield forged steel, it cannot stand up to my magics."
Player; 'I ready a grapple attempt for when he gets within range.'

The grapple wizard has all the advantages.

I haven't exactly approached this, but I'd say a fighter with a spiked chain and combat reflexes (along with a dagger) has a good chance of taking out the mage.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 10:11 AM
Granted, the grapple wizard doesn't have a huge AC bonus, or similar to avoid the (probably lethal) damage of a fighter, but where does combat reflexes enter into this? The fighter is only going to get 1 AOO tops, from the wizard entering the fighter's threat range. After that, it becomes a 5' step battle, where the extra potential AOO's don't matter. In addition, even with full movement for both parties each round, the wizard still will leave a threatened square only once per round, so the combat reflexes are wasted.

With a reach weapon, a win is quite possible for the fighter, without one, it's calamari time for the fighter.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 11:28 AM
Actually, the fighter with the spiked chain and Combat Reflexes would get two AoO.

one for the wiz moving through his threatened squares

and

one for the wizard initiating a grapple, which provokes and AoO

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 11:33 AM
If you're looking for a good combat mage PrC, Swiftblade with all of its permutations is a pretty good choice, especially after Haste becomes a free action every round and an Ex ability.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 11:39 AM
Actually, the fighter with the spiked chain and Combat Reflexes would get two AoO.

one for the wiz moving through his threatened squares

and

one for the wizard initiating a grapple, which provokes and AoO

The grapple wizard has improved grapple. No AOO.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 11:49 AM
That is one really single minded wizard since he has a Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Improved Grapple. Good thing he's human or it wouldn't have worked. I forgot, did he cast Enlarge before entering this grapple? If so, he's even more impressive with his Dex 15 to start.

horseboy
2008-01-16, 12:16 PM
That is one really single minded wizard since he has a Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Improved Grapple. Good thing he's human or it wouldn't have worked. I forgot, did he cast Enlarge before entering this grapple? If so, he's even more impressive with his Dex 15 to start.

If it's the one from earlier, Enlarge Person was what he casts when he was 2nd level. For 1st he used some Spell Companion spell that does d8 points of damage / round in a grapple. He does have an octopus familiar for a total Grapple mod of +9 at first level.

marjan
2008-01-16, 12:19 PM
The grapple wizard has improved grapple. No AOO.

If they are lvl3+ fighter will have Close quarters fighting.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 12:25 PM
If it's the one from earlier, Enlarge Person was what he casts when he was 2nd level. For 1st he used some Spell Companion spell that does d8 points of damage / round in a grapple. He does have an octopus familiar for a total Grapple mod of +9 at first level.

I didn't realize we were in an underwater setting either. Apparently there was a lot I wasn't aware of....

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 12:26 PM
Where do you find octopus as a familiar?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-16, 12:33 PM
Where do you find octopus as a familiar?

Stormwrack, page 52.

vrellum
2008-01-16, 12:42 PM
combat reflexes also allows the fighter attacks of opportunity even if the wizard wins initiative.

Its hard to predict what would happen, but a typically statted 1st level wizard will have stats along the lines of:

str 8
dex 13
con 14
int 15
wis 12
chr 10

Now if you try to build someone who can take a fighter at first level using grapple, then you need to change these to something like

str 14
dex 13
con 15
int 12
wis 10
chr 8

And you'll need two feats, so that means you must be human:
improved unarmed strike, improved grapple

Wizard casts enlarge person (total grapple bonus + 12) and some slime spell.
His AC is 9, HP 6, init bonus + 0 (-2 dex from being large), AB + 2.

Fighter's stats:
str 15
dex 13
con 14
int 10
wis 12
chr 8

feats

combat reflexes, improved initiative, ewp spiked chain (or just get a reach weapon and armor spikes and save the feat for something else).

I realize that these feats don't really help the fighter much in this fight, except for improved initiative, but that's part of the point.

fighter has:
12 HP, AC 14 (studded leather, 13 dex), touch AC of 11, AB +3 (+3 grapple) and init bonus of +5

Most of the time the fighter wins initiative, charges the wizard and kills him (+5 to hit vs AC 9). If the wizards get to attack he only hits and wins the grapple about 52% of the time.

So the 1st level. optimized grapple wizard does not stand a good chance of winning, even against a nonoptimzed fighter.

vrellum
2008-01-16, 12:46 PM
If it's the one from earlier, Enlarge Person was what he casts when he was 2nd level. For 1st he used some Spell Companion spell that does d8 points of damage / round in a grapple. He does have an octopus familiar for a total Grapple mod of +9 at first level.

Without enlarge the mage provokes an AoO for exiting a threatened square. Plus I believe the wizard must be an elf to get a plus nine bonus, thus he can't take improved grapple so he provokes another one.

The wizard might win, but he probably won't

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 01:02 PM
I'm trying to figure that +9 out too. Unless we are talking about the half-orc wiz from earlier. That would be +5 STR, + 0 BAB, +4 Imp Grapple

Nope that doesn't work, can't get the Imp Grapple

Oh right, Enlarge +4 Size to grapple +2 Size to Str, +4 Imp Grapple, +0 BAB

Nope that's not it either.

Where does +9 come from, or is it a special from the octopus familiar

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-16, 01:07 PM
Where does +9 come from, or is it a special from the octopus familiar

Yes.

+3 Octopus familiar
+4 Imp. Grapple
+2 Str 14

Enlarged you can add:
+4 size
+1 STR increase

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 02:08 PM
Thanks. But an AoO with a reach weapon is still a deal breaker until theat wizard gets a coupla levels. And by the time the wizard has a coupla levels to survive the AoO, the fighter's grapple check catches up, and he has enough hit points to take tha babau slime and still pummel the wizard senseless. You'd still have to be a pretty desperate wiz.

horseboy
2008-01-16, 02:19 PM
Thanks. But an AoO with a reach weapon is still a deal breaker until theat wizard gets a coupla levels. And by the time the wizard has a coupla levels to survive the AoO, the fighter's grapple check catches up, and he has enough hit points to take tha babau slime and still pummel the wizard senseless. You'd still have to be a pretty desperate wiz.

The link is on page 2

http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=651 is how a wizard grapples. I've always liked this build (due to the insanity of it).

Sorry for the delay, found it necessary to sleep. Now if only I had a template or PrC that eliminated that need...

Here's the build:
So as we all know, Monks suck. In part of my ongoing negative assessment of Monks, I'm going to produce a number of other characters that serve the purpose of a "Monk" without suffering from the painful reckoning of actually having any monk levels. Cause man, that would really suck!

So here it is: A grapple based wizard character. Not what you'd expect from a grapple build, but there you go.

Level 1: You are a human and have a single level of Wizard, and you get to select your feats and specialize and all that. You put your highest rolled stat in Intelligence because you aren't a moron, and your second highest goes into Strength. Rar! You take an Octopus as your familiar (It's Wet Outside), and you select Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved grapple as your feats. You specialize in Transmutation, and take Evocation and Enchantment as barred schools.

Combat: You grapple people! Having Improved Grapple means that you can initiate a grab without provoking an AoO. Assuming that you have a Strength of 14, you'll have a Grapple bonus of +9 at 1st level, which means that you expect to win. You're also going to cast babau slime on yourself, which means that you'll do 1d8 points of acid damage every round you stay in a grapple, which in turn is enough to make you totally lethal. You can take down enemies above your level no problem.

2nd level: Holy shiznit! You got a BAB bonus! Sweet. You now have Grapple onus of +10. But then you can have a spell left over for enlarge person that can jack your grapple bonus up to +16

3rd level: Now things go crazy. You learn fearsome grapple and bladeweave. You get a feat, and it's Aberration Blood. Your Grapple Bonus goes up to +12 and then you cast fearsome grapple, enlarge person, and bladeweave - driving your Grapple bonus up to +22 (comparison: this is better than a Giant Octopus at +15). Further, your victim has to make a Will save every round or be dazed - which means that they can't even attempt to break out. This is where you pin your opponent and the Rogue uses a coup de grace.

4th level: You get a BAB hot diggity! You now have +23 Grapple when it's important (the equal of a Dire Bear, for those keeping track). You also learn some new spells I suggest Balor Nimbus and web

5th level: You get a bonus Metamagic Feat. I suggest either Sudden Extend, or Extend Spell. You also get 3rd level spells. You're probably going to get haste as well as something good like stinking cloud.

6th level: You get a Feat, which will probably be Sudden Maximize. Also you get a +1 to BAB so your grapple bonus just shot past that of a Dire Bear. Also you get some more spells which are Shivering Touch (so once per day you can hand out 18 points of Dex damage as a touch attack in case you come across a Dragon or Purple Worm that can actually beat you in a grapple), and then either shrink item (for all around utility), or girallon's blessing (for ripping peoples' faces right off).

7th level: You may take a prestige class. Or not. I don't even care, because you just got polymorph and the cheese stands alone. Apply all your grapple bull**** as a Remorrhaz, or whatever. I don't even care at this point.
I'm not sure how the fighter is going to catch up with a +23 grapple at level 4

Indon
2008-01-16, 03:26 PM
I'm not sure how the fighter is going to catch up with a +23 grapple at level 4

He doesn't need to. He one-shots the Wizard with a single attack. All he needs to do is ready an action to attack if the Wizard attempts a grapple. That Wizard has no AC to speak of, and assuming he has 14 CON (as a third stat) he has 6+4.5 per level HP, for a grand total of 20 HP, rounded up.

By that time, the warrior could have a single +1 guisarme, deal 2d4+9 (7 str-and-a-half, 1 enhancement, 1 feat) damage, with a to-hit of 11 (5 str, 4 BAB, 1 feat, 1 enhancement). This is probably higher than the Wizard's entire AC. He power attacks for 4 (edit: 8 damage) and is now dealing a minimum of 19 damage, and still has over a 70% chance to hit.

And he's likely to win initiative, because he can do all that and take Improved Initiative. Ooh! That's Greedo's level 2 Fighter feat!

marjan
2008-01-16, 03:35 PM
I'm not sure how the fighter is going to catch up with a +23 grapple at level 4

STR 15 + 1(level)+2(Potion of Enlarge Person) = 18 +4
DEX 14 - 2 (Potion of Enlarge Person) = 12 + 1
...
INT 13
...

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, WF, WS...

Weapon: Guisarme +1
+9 to hit, 2d6+9 dmg (avg 16)

Grapple: +4(BA)+4(STR)+4(size) + (11-21)(if you hit with AoO)= 12-33
Trip: +4(STR)+4(size)+4(Improved Trip) = 12

The wiz provokes AoO when closing with fighter, which fighter uses to try to trip him (without mirror image and funny dice roll, wiz is down). If he closes with fighter he provokes AoO for trying to grapple him and all dmg goes into fighters grapple check.

If flaws are allowed you can get Improved Grapple as well for an additional +4 to grapple checks or drop WS to get Improved Grapple.

EDIT: Forgot to add Close-Quarters Fighting there.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 03:40 PM
The link is on page 2


Here's the build:
So as we all know, Monks suck. In part of my ongoing negative assessment of Monks, I'm going to produce a number of other characters that serve the purpose of a "Monk" without suffering from the painful reckoning of actually having any monk levels. Cause man, that would really suck!

So here it is: A grapple based wizard character. Not what you'd expect from a grapple build, but there you go.

Level 1: You are a human and have a single level of Wizard, and you get to select your feats and specialize and all that. You put your highest rolled stat in Intelligence because you aren't a moron, and your second highest goes into Strength. Rar! You take an Octopus as your familiar (It's Wet Outside), and you select Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved grapple as your feats. You specialize in Transmutation, and take Evocation and Enchantment as barred schools.

Combat: You grapple people! Having Improved Grapple means that you can initiate a grab without provoking an AoO. Assuming that you have a Strength of 14, you'll have a Grapple bonus of +9 at 1st level, which means that you expect to win. You're also going to cast babau slime on yourself, which means that you'll do 1d8 points of acid damage every round you stay in a grapple, which in turn is enough to make you totally lethal. You can take down enemies above your level no problem.

2nd level: Holy shiznit! You got a BAB bonus! Sweet. You now have Grapple onus of +10. But then you can have a spell left over for enlarge person that can jack your grapple bonus up to +16

3rd level: Now things go crazy. You learn fearsome grapple and bladeweave. You get a feat, and it's Aberration Blood. Your Grapple Bonus goes up to +12 and then you cast fearsome grapple, enlarge person, and bladeweave - driving your Grapple bonus up to +22 (comparison: this is better than a Giant Octopus at +15). Further, your victim has to make a Will save every round or be dazed - which means that they can't even attempt to break out. This is where you pin your opponent and the Rogue uses a coup de grace.

4th level: You get a BAB hot diggity! You now have +23 Grapple when it's important (the equal of a Dire Bear, for those keeping track). You also learn some new spells I suggest Balor Nimbus and web

5th level: You get a bonus Metamagic Feat. I suggest either Sudden Extend, or Extend Spell. You also get 3rd level spells. You're probably going to get haste as well as something good like stinking cloud.

6th level: You get a Feat, which will probably be Sudden Maximize. Also you get a +1 to BAB so your grapple bonus just shot past that of a Dire Bear. Also you get some more spells which are Shivering Touch (so once per day you can hand out 18 points of Dex damage as a touch attack in case you come across a Dragon or Purple Worm that can actually beat you in a grapple), and then either shrink item (for all around utility), or girallon's blessing (for ripping peoples' faces right off).

7th level: You may take a prestige class. Or not. I don't even care, because you just got polymorph and the cheese stands alone. Apply all your grapple bull**** as a Remorrhaz, or whatever. I don't even care at this point.
I'm not sure how the fighter is going to catch up with a +23 grapple at level 4

Now that would be the info I was missing, course I have no idea wher some of that stuff comes from. Aberation Blood??? Lords of Madness??

I'm not familiar with either spell fearsome grapple or bladeweave. Someone want to explain.

vrellum
2008-01-16, 03:43 PM
The link is on page 2


Here's the build:
So as we all know, Monks suck. In part of my ongoing negative assessment of Monks, I'm going to produce a number of other characters that serve the purpose of a "Monk" without suffering from the painful reckoning of actually having any monk levels. Cause man, that would really suck!

So here it is: A grapple based wizard character. Not what you'd expect from a grapple build, but there you go.

Level 1: You are a human and have a single level of Wizard, and you get to select your feats and specialize and all that. You put your highest rolled stat in Intelligence because you aren't a moron, and your second highest goes into Strength. Rar! You take an Octopus as your familiar (It's Wet Outside), and you select Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved grapple as your feats. You specialize in Transmutation, and take Evocation and Enchantment as barred schools.

Combat: You grapple people! Having Improved Grapple means that you can initiate a grab without provoking an AoO. Assuming that you have a Strength of 14, you'll have a Grapple bonus of +9 at 1st level, which means that you expect to win. You're also going to cast babau slime on yourself, which means that you'll do 1d8 points of acid damage every round you stay in a grapple, which in turn is enough to make you totally lethal. You can take down enemies above your level no problem.

2nd level: Holy shiznit! You got a BAB bonus! Sweet. You now have Grapple onus of +10. But then you can have a spell left over for enlarge person that can jack your grapple bonus up to +16

3rd level: Now things go crazy. You learn fearsome grapple and bladeweave. You get a feat, and it's Aberration Blood. Your Grapple Bonus goes up to +12 and then you cast fearsome grapple, enlarge person, and bladeweave - driving your Grapple bonus up to +22 (comparison: this is better than a Giant Octopus at +15). Further, your victim has to make a Will save every round or be dazed - which means that they can't even attempt to break out. This is where you pin your opponent and the Rogue uses a coup de grace.

4th level: You get a BAB hot diggity! You now have +23 Grapple when it's important (the equal of a Dire Bear, for those keeping track). You also learn some new spells I suggest Balor Nimbus and web

5th level: You get a bonus Metamagic Feat. I suggest either Sudden Extend, or Extend Spell. You also get 3rd level spells. You're probably going to get haste as well as something good like stinking cloud.

6th level: You get a Feat, which will probably be Sudden Maximize. Also you get a +1 to BAB so your grapple bonus just shot past that of a Dire Bear. Also you get some more spells which are Shivering Touch (so once per day you can hand out 18 points of Dex damage as a touch attack in case you come across a Dragon or Purple Worm that can actually beat you in a grapple), and then either shrink item (for all around utility), or girallon's blessing (for ripping peoples' faces right off).

7th level: You may take a prestige class. Or not. I don't even care, because you just got polymorph and the cheese stands alone. Apply all your grapple bull**** as a Remorrhaz, or whatever. I don't even care at this point.
I'm not sure how the fighter is going to catch up with a +23 grapple at level 4

Close quarters fighting also allows him to deal with the grapple at level 4. All grapple attempts provoke AoO, any damage dealt either foils the grapple attempt (if the attempt normally provokes) or is added to the fighters grapple roll to resist being grappled.

Even if the fighter is grappled, the wizard might die from the AoO combined with damage taken during the fight. And note the above build is based on cheesing every bonus possible for a grapple mage and it doesn't fare too well against a OK built fighter that is not optimized to beat it.

GoC
2008-01-16, 04:20 PM
Most of the time the fighter wins initiative, charges the wizard and kills him (+5 to hit vs AC 9).

Don't you mean AC 19? +4 from mage armor, +4 from shield, +1 dex.


If you're looking for a good combat mage PrC, Swiftblade with all of its permutations is a pretty good choice, especially after Haste becomes a free action every round and an Ex ability.
A Swiftblade doesn't wield a 15 lance of pure force, a sword that deals negative levels on each hit, is protected by glowing blue semi-transparent armor, is covered in magical fire, has a shield floating about and blocking attacks and two daggers that automiticly attack anyone within range. These are all real spells btw.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 04:55 PM
Don't you mean AC 19? +4 from mage armor, +4 from shield, +1 dex.


A Swiftblade doesn't wield a 15 lance of pure force, a sword that deals negative levels on each hit, is protected by glowing blue semi-transparent armor, is covered in magical fire, has a shield floating about and blocking attacks and two daggers that automiticly attack anyone within range. These are all real spells btw.

This grapple mage build spends many of its spells on, well, grappling. As such, it lacks the mage armor or shield spell casting. Against a special built fighter used against it (cqc, imp init), it probably loses (has to win init vs. fighter, has to hit with a move+grapple first = <25% occurance at lv.1). However, this grappling build is an absurdity for one, and for 2, is meant to be used against monsters. At a high enough level, people have rings of freedom of movement, rendering the grappling moot.

The point of this build is to point out that a fighter has a very large feat space to play with to beat the wizard. A wizard has a hilbert space of availiable options to use against the fighter, and, for one combat anyway, can use a set of these options to beat the fighter. It may even be able to beat the fighter in a melee contest, so large is the set of options available.

vrellum
2008-01-16, 05:11 PM
1, 4, 5 and 6 are possible just using the laws of physics.
I really hate 2 so don't even get me started on that!
3 makes sense when you realise that you can sense slight changes in air currents caused by an invisible attacker. Unlikely but possible.


While it makes sense that spellcaster beat people who don't use magic I'm actualy crying foul because certain feats don't make sense.


Actualy those all make sense in a way. monks are magical remember?


Point.
The problem isn't that mage-slayer and stand still break the game (they do but that's beside the point) it's that they don't make sense in the universe they're in.

Iku Rex: Thanks. Yeah, I'm looking for good melee buff spells. I'm thinking of homebrewing a mage designed for close combat. He'd be able to activate all his buffs as a move action and uses magic to aid him in melee (magical armor/swords/spikes). He wouldn't be anywhere near as versatile as the wizard and is mostly meant as a replacement for the fighter.

Wow, I've managed to hijack my own thread!:smalleek:

1 (regularly surviving 200' falls), 4 (punching harder than someone can swing a hammer), 5 (running faster than a horse) and 6 (firing arrows from a bow or light crossbow at rate of nearly 1/s) are all impossible tasks in this universe. No ifs ands or buts about it. The punching comment assumes both are "good" at their respective tasks. Steel hammers are harder than fists. The handle gives makes the lever moving the hammer longer, allowing for a greater velocity. Therefore, the hammer will hit harder than a fist.

As far as 5 is concerned monks movement is not considered magical until it surpasses 60' per round. Many horses have a stated movement rate of 50' per round, so monks can run faster than horses by nonmagical means. If you look at the biophysics of movement it can be shown that it is impossible for humans to obtain this speed.

3 is bull as well. No way is sensing air currents and other junk like that going to compensate for not being able to see your attacker.

I'm really at a loss on how you can say any of the things I brought up make sense at more than a superficial level.

Here's an explainantion:
"Mage-slayers" just study really hard to overcome the magical defenses of their opponents. The know how to hit the weak point of the magic auras that protect their opponents and as you said, they sense the subtle changes in air currents to defeat concealment effects.

Anyway, back to the other stuff. I don't know what the mage's AC is necessarily. Maybe it's 19, maybe it's lower. Depends on what spells the mages casts.

A mage that spends all of his spells on shield and mage armor and all his feats on improved unarmed strike and improved grapple would make a pretty sad party member. His AC might be pretty good, but his HP are junk (6?) and after 1 minute his AC drops to 15, after 1 hour it drops to 11. If he's not prepared in advance, it is 11.

Let's see this mage charges the fighter (otherwise the fighter chills until the buffs wear off). That provokes and AoO against AC 17. Fighter hits on a 14 or better (35% chance) and kills the mage (87% of the time if he hits) = 30% chance of victory for the fighter.

Assuming the mage is missed or doesn't go down, he tries to make a touch attack against the fighter. Fighter's touch AC is 12 (14 dex), wizard's AB is (0 + 2 for charging, + 2 str) = 4. He hits on an 8 or better (65% chance) and wins the grapple check 80% of the time, giving him a 52% chance of overall success.

If he succeeds in grappling the fighter, then the fighter is in a lot of trouble. If he doesnt, then the fighter moves away and waits for him to charge again. Repeating the above scenario. This works out to about a 50/50 chance of success for the mage.

However, the fighter is likely to win initiative (how likely depends on what feats he took, such as improved initiative, but even w/o imp init he still has a 50% or better chance to beat the mage). If the fighter wins init. then he readies an action to attack the mage when the mage attacks him. This results in the mage being killed a little more than 50% of the time before he ever gets to attack.

So it looks like the mage will lose more often than he wins.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 05:38 PM
Stuff

1. Human beings can't regularly survive 200' falls. They can occasionally survive 200' falls however, there are documented cases. In most of these cases, the person has been very injured by the fall, and injury, disease, and poison are not handled very realistically in D20.

2. Punching harder than a hammer: also impossible. Kicking/kneeing or some other similar technique can be as hard as a sledgehammer blow (as measured by pressure sensors) by a normal person, when the kick or knee is delivered by a martial artist. Presumably the martial artist could hit extremely hard if they had a sledgehammer themselves instead.

3. Listening to an unseen attacker is possible, but harder than seeing a normal attacker. But then, since nobody in this world gets to be invisible, it's kind of an unknown.

5. Human speed max ~= 30 MPH. Horse speed max ~= 50 MPH. So yes, this is quite impossible. But then, I believe 30MPH equates to 240' a round or some such rediculous number anyway, so the game's really not that accurate anyhow...

6. An experienced longbowman (fastest rate among bows known by me) was expected to fire 1/3 s. Among crossbows, a trained Cho Ko Nu user was expected to fire 1/1.5 s. Which is in line with the PHB, ironically. I haven't found a fire rate for slings, that may be an impossibility to fire that fast in real life. But then, slings don't have a 150' range increment either... A factor of 2 off from the fire rates in the PHB, I know, but fairly close, relatively speaking.

Chronos
2008-01-16, 06:18 PM
A wizard has a hilbert space of availiable options to use against the fighterOh, come now. The number of splatbooks (and spells contained therein) may be very large, but it's not quite infinite.

vrellum
2008-01-16, 06:20 PM
1. Human beings can't regularly survive 200' falls. They can occasionally survive 200' falls however, there are documented cases. In most of these cases, the person has been very injured by the fall, and injury, disease, and poison are not handled very realistically in D20.

2. Punching harder than a hammer: also impossible. Kicking/kneeing or some other similar technique can be as hard as a sledgehammer blow (as measured by pressure sensors) by a normal person, when the kick or knee is delivered by a martial artist. Presumably the martial artist could hit extremely hard if they had a sledgehammer themselves instead.

3. Listening to an unseen attacker is possible, but harder than seeing a normal attacker. But then, since nobody in this world gets to be invisible, it's kind of an unknown.

5. Human speed max ~= 30 MPH. Horse speed max ~= 50 MPH. So yes, this is quite impossible. But then, I believe 30MPH equates to 240' a round or some such rediculous number anyway, so the game's really not that accurate anyhow...

6. An experienced longbowman (fastest rate among bows known by me) was expected to fire 1/3 s. Among crossbows, a trained Cho Ko Nu user was expected to fire 1/1.5 s. Which is in line with the PHB, ironically. I haven't found a fire rate for slings, that may be an impossibility to fire that fast in real life. But then, slings don't have a 150' range increment either... A factor of 2 off from the fire rates in the PHB, I know, but fairly close, relatively speaking.

1. Yes occansionally. But the point of DnD is that at a certain level you can jump off the highest mountain in the world, hit the ground and walk away. No special training or magic required and you can do it everytime if your HP exceed 120.

2. I believe I edited this to reflect the DnD situation where you have two trained individuals. Not one trained to an exceedingly high level and one that is pulled off the street. If not, that's what I meant. Also, I don't believe the pressure sensors take into account the hardness difference of a steel hammer and bone.

3. Fight while wearing a blindfold.

6. The archer was only expected to hit the opposing army, not an individual in the army and I believe the fire rate was closer to 12 shots per minute than 20 shots per minute. This fire rate is about 1/4 the fire rate given to a DnD archer and in the real world it was performed under the most ideal conditions with the assumption that the archer only had to hit somewhere in the vicinity of the other 1000 guys over there.

The cho ko nu is not a light crossbow. It is a pumpaction weapon, represented DnD by the repeating crossbow.

GoC
2008-01-16, 07:19 PM
1 (regularly surviving 200' falls), 4 (punching harder than someone can swing a hammer), 5 (running faster than a horse) and 6 (firing arrows from a bow or light crossbow at rate of nearly 1/s) are all impossible tasks in this universe. No ifs ands or buts about it. The punching comment assumes both are "good" at their respective tasks. Steel hammers are harder than fists. The handle gives makes the lever moving the hammer longer, allowing for a greater velocity. Therefore, the hammer will hit harder than a fist.
1,5&6. These is possible but not humanly possible. However geneticaly engineered humans or people who can absorb the lifeforce of defeated enemies to become superhuman could very well do these things.


As far as 5 is concerned monks movement is not considered magical until it surpasses 60' per round.
You don't have to use magic just to be slightly beyond the human limit.


"Mage-slayers" just study really hard to overcome the magical defenses of their opponents. The know how to hit the weak point of the magic auras that protect their opponents and as you said, they sense the subtle changes in air currents to defeat concealment effects.
Yes that explains it but it's unsupported by the canon.
Yes, the air currents thing works but what about naturaly invisible creatures?
And what about when things go ethereal? How does your mageslayer overcome that?
Why would a magic aura have a weak point? Seems very unlikely and totaly unsupported by RAW or canon.

I for one don't believe the minimum level is 1. How would you counter the level 5, reach 15ft mage I posted?

marjan
2008-01-16, 07:26 PM
Here's an explainantion:
"Mage-slayers" just study really hard to overcome the magical defenses of their opponents. The know how to hit the weak point of the magic auras that protect their opponents and as you said, they sense the subtle changes in air currents to defeat concealment effects.

That's not what feat says. It says something in line of: "Your condemn for magic is so great that any caster near you is screwed and he knows it.".


I for one don't believe the minimum level is 1. How would you counter the level 5, reach 15ft mage I posted?

Potion of Enlarge Person + Reach Weapon = 20ft reach.

F.L.
2008-01-16, 07:32 PM
1. Yes occansionally. But the point of DnD is that at a certain level you can jump off the highest mountain in the world, hit the ground and walk away. No special training or magic required and you can do it everytime if your HP exceed 120.

2. I believe I edited this to reflect the DnD situation where you have two trained individuals. Not one trained to an exceedingly high level and one that is pulled off the street. If not, that's what I meant. Also, I don't believe the pressure sensors take into account the hardness difference of a steel hammer and bone.

3. Fight while wearing a blindfold.

6. The archer was only expected to hit the opposing army, not an individual in the army and I believe the fire rate was closer to 12 shots per minute than 20 shots per minute. This fire rate is about 1/4 the fire rate given to a DnD archer and in the real world it was performed under the most ideal conditions with the assumption that the archer only had to hit somewhere in the vicinity of the other 1000 guys over there.

The cho ko nu is not a light crossbow. It is a pumpaction weapon, represented DnD by the repeating crossbow.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, as much as it seems. I completely missed 3. Ok, the blind-fighting powers are unrealistic. On 6, the longbow situation at its worst is still 2 shots per round(EDIT: MATH IS SLIGHTLY WRONG HERE, BUT WITHIN AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE), which is only a factor of 2 off from a level 16+ fighter, with 4-5 shots per round. As for the cho-ku-no, it's simply the fastest "crossbow" variety, chosen as a reference for the closest case to the fighter 16's 4 attacks per round. Even though nobody in D&D uses repeating crossbows. I have no idea what the rate of fire on light crossbows is (though it's certainly slower). I know for heavy crossbows it approaches 1 shot / minute.

As for 2, hardness doesn't impact the mean impulse and pressure of a blow, you can always choose to shatter your own bones and shred your own ligaments when hitting something. In addition, for certain cases, fluid dynamics can result in objects much harder than metal for limited amounts of time, this is being investigated for bulletproof armor (shear thickening fluids, non-newtonian dynamics, etc). Water doesn't compress very well, and the human body is mostly water. If you can align the composite material that a human body is in the correct fashion (unlikely, I know), it can be unreasonably strong.

Also Conan, "Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger!" While you can probably destroy things better with a long lever arm and a steel weight, the human body alone is sufficient to crumble masonry. So a trained monk dealing acceptable damage with an unarmed strike isn't that unrealistic, the monk not dealing insane damage with actual weapons is the unrealistic part.

vrellum
2008-01-16, 08:00 PM
1,5&6. These is possible but not humanly possible. However geneticaly engineered humans or people who can absorb the lifeforce of defeated enemies to become superhuman could very well do these things.


You don't have to use magic just to be slightly beyond the human limit.


Yes that explains it but it's unsupported by the canon.
Yes, the air currents thing works but what about naturaly invisible creatures?
And what about when things go ethereal? How does your mageslayer overcome that?
Why would a magic aura have a weak point? Seems very unlikely and totaly unsupported by RAW or canon.

I for one don't believe the minimum level is 1. How would you counter the level 5, reach 15ft mage I posted?


No creatures the size of adult humans regularly surviving 200' falls. Nothing comes even close, yet in DnD it's not that remarkable of a stunt.

There really isn't RAW explaination for many feats (at least not believable ones). For example how do you realistically explain great cleave? What about great cleave by an animal using a bite attack? I don't see how it can be done, do you?

DnD is a game with unrealistic magic and unrealistic feats and unrealistic armor and unrealistic just about everything. So maybe the hatred that mage slayers have for magicusers is a type of magic itself (sort of like evasion, which really has to be magical to make anysense, as does uncanny dodge) and that allows the fighter to penetrate the mage's defenses.

Anyway, lots of things are completely unrealistic in DnD. In fact, its probably pretty hard to come up with a core concept of the game that is realistic.

HP? no
AC? no
level? no
sneak attack? no
magic? no
damage? no
weapons? no
armor? no

vrellum
2008-01-16, 08:15 PM
You need to revise your 5th level guy. Thunderlance is a 4th level spell, so a 5th level caster can't use it.

marjan
2008-01-16, 08:20 PM
No creatures the size of adult humans regularly surviving 200' falls. Nothing comes even close, yet in DnD it's not that remarkable of a stunt.


Well there are cases where people IRL survived falls that long. Usually unique set of circumstances but still they survived.

To survive an average fall from 200ft you need to have at least 60+ hp which you won't get that easily until lvl 7+ with fighter with 14 con and without magic. So it comes down to how many lvl7+ fighters you have in a world.

vrellum
2008-01-16, 08:42 PM
Well there are cases where people IRL survived falls that long. Usually unique set of circumstances but still they survived.

To survive an average fall from 200ft you need to have at least 60+ hp which you won't get that easily until lvl 7+ with fighter with 14 con and without magic. So it comes down to how many lvl7+ fighters you have in a world.

Yes a few cases, but I said consistently. The people who survive don't seem to have any special ability (besides lots of luck), they're not "high level" or whatever that would really mean. In DnD once you've got 121 hp you can do it everytime, without fail.

Also an elephant would be extremely good at surviving a fall and a mouse would be very bad. In the real world the exact opposite is true.

The problem is, HP don't do a good job of representinig any real-world quality. Represents skill at avoiding blows? Lack of extra damage when the defender isn't aware of the attacker rules that out. Exceedingly tough? It seems lame that a fight between two high level fighters amounts to them standing toe-to-toe hacking at each other and running each other through with their weapons a dozen or so times until one falls over. Super tough skin? Not in the real world.

Chronos
2008-01-16, 08:59 PM
One might argue that the primary reason that nobody in the real world consistently survives falls of 200 feet is that nobody in the real world is stupid enough to consistently try it. Yeah, maybe those folks who survived their parachutes not opening just have a lot of hit points, but do they know that?

Deepblue706
2008-01-16, 09:08 PM
Eh...

I think the impact after free-falling at terminal velocity should not only deal damage, but have a % chance of outright killing someone, regardless. I think massive damage should work like that, in general (Fort save DC 15? Are you kidding?).

vrellum
2008-01-16, 09:15 PM
But we're really getting off target.

I'd say a 5th level fighter with:
heavy shield
shortsword

shield specialization
shield ward
combat expertise
close quarters fighting
phalanx fighting

Is an not so common build that is pretty effective against a mage or other enemies as well:

AC:
10 + 8 (armor) + 2 (shield) + 1 (shield spec) + 1 (phalanx fighting) +1 (dex) = 23, max 28 with combat expertise or 30 with a +1 shield and +1 set of armor
touch AC
10 + 3 (shield ward) + 1 (dex) + 1 phalanx fighting = 15 or 16 with a +1 shield and 21 with max combat expertise.

grapple
5 (BAB) + 3 (str) + 3 (shield) = +11 or +12 with a +1 shield
not the best in the world, but pretty good for someone who isn't trying too hard.

His strategy, back away until he can't anymore then expertise for max for 5 rounds so your buffs go away (haste, bite of the wererat and thunderlance, though thunderlance is not legal). Your AC drops from 26 to 19 and you no longer have a good melee weapon.

The mage's AB is 11 and his AC w/o magic items is 28, so the mage would need a 17 or better to hit him. If the fighter has +1 armor and +1 shield (not too unreasonable), then the mage would need a 19 to hit. Assume it takes at least 2 rounds of movement to close with the fighter and the mage would get about 4 attacks before his lance goes away. The probability of at least 1 hit against an AC of 28 is 1-(.8)^4 = only 60%, give the fighter magic armor and magic shield and that drops to 19%. After the lance is gone and the haste and the bite of the were rat, the mage is in a lot of trouble. The fighter closes and with his AB of +7 vs your AC of 19 finishes you off in short order. (Your AB would drop to probably no better than +4 vs his AC of 23 to 25.)

I know close quarters fighting doesn't do anything for this combat, but its a nice feat to have. I also think this fighter is something a person might see in a real game. It's not using a bunch of abilities or feats that people consider broken or over-powered. It's main drawback is it doesn't do a lot of damage, but it has quite a lot of staying power.

I'm sure other people can post completely different, though viable builds that are as good or better than this build at not only defeating the mage, but also at general adventuring.

FirstAdam
2008-01-16, 10:14 PM
There is a level 2 wizard spell called Heroics, which can grant him a fighter bonus feat. Cast that a few times, he's got the same number, or even more feats than the fighter.

Talic
2008-01-17, 12:56 AM
I like the grapple mage, still, a bit weak to AoO's. Perhaps something that grants cover so as to negate them?

One of my fave grapple builds was a fighter type with Shock Trooper. Sundering Cleave into a grapple, it prevents AoO's, since 95% of the time, the target doesn't threaten anymore.

Armads
2008-01-17, 03:21 AM
Shouldn't that be Combat Brute instead?

Talic
2008-01-17, 03:28 AM
Shouldn't that be Combat Brute instead?

Er, I'm away from my books and used the wrong big whack feat.

Yami
2008-01-18, 06:33 AM
So... we've considered that at level one our warrior has bought himself a silly spiked chain and plans of hitting the wizard with AoOs, but no one has yet mentioned the wizard selling off his spellbook and stocking up on potions?

No wait, someone mention the attack dogs rout.

Also, the whole charging into melee thing. I dunno bout you guys, but I know some DMs out there play with the diagnal squares counting as 1 1/2 sqaures. I.e. I can step from 15 ft away to 5ft away, avioding the whole 10ft reach problem.

So far the best counter to the grapple mage has been 'hold my action'. I have already put the fighter on the defensive, he plays to my tune now. you can just walk up to him and hold your action 'until he does anything' allowing you free reign.

Talic
2008-01-18, 07:51 AM
Personally, I feel that the "mage slayer" feats are essentially a non-arguement. We're not looking to see when a wizard can beat a fighter who is optimized against fighting wizards. We're looking to see when a mage can take a fighter.

As such, we can largely discount feats that most fighters wouldn't take.

Let's look at two starting fighter builds.

1. Human Fighter 1, EWP (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip.

2. Half-Orc Fighter 1, Power Attack, Leap Attack

Build 1 is centered around eventually being the fairly popular combat control spiked chain craziness build. Build 2 is designed around attaining shock trooper as early as possible.

Both are powerful, effective builds. Both are destroyed at level 1 by the grapple wizard.

Khanderas
2008-01-18, 08:39 AM
Also Conan, "Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger!" While you can probably destroy things better with a long lever arm and a steel weight, the human body alone is sufficient to crumble masonry. So a trained monk dealing acceptable damage with an unarmed strike isn't that unrealistic, the monk not dealing insane damage with actual weapons is the unrealistic part.
I always thought that the comment from Thulsa Doom ment more that power isnt having a strong swordarm (steel) but controlling people (flesh).
Edit: Note he regards people as flesh, or in other words, tools.

vrellum
2008-01-18, 09:00 AM
Personally, I feel that the "mage slayer" feats are essentially a non-arguement. We're not looking to see when a wizard can beat a fighter who is optimized against fighting wizards. We're looking to see when a mage can take a fighter.

As such, we can largely discount feats that most fighters wouldn't take.

Let's look at two starting fighter builds.

1. Human Fighter 1, EWP (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip.

2. Half-Orc Fighter 1, Power Attack, Leap Attack

Build 1 is centered around eventually being the fairly popular combat control spiked chain craziness build. Build 2 is designed around attaining shock trooper as early as possible.

Both are powerful, effective builds. Both are destroyed at level 1 by the grapple wizard.

But its ok to build 1st level wizards with 15 str and 11 int, make them human and give them improved unarmed strike, improved grapple and an octopus familar, then have them cast all (one) of their spells so they can try to beat the fighter? Even though this wizard is useless except for one encounter per day and useless if he doesn't get to buff up before the fight?

The mageslayer line is not that bad. True their useless against most opponents, but they are sooo good against some that it is not unreasonable to think that someone might put them in a build (but probably not a 1st level build).

F.L.
2008-01-18, 09:10 AM
I always thought that the comment from Thulsa Doom ment more that power isnt having a strong swordarm (steel) but controlling people (flesh).
Edit: Note he regards people as flesh, or in other words, tools.

Oh, I always took it to mean that the specific impulse of a person traveling at 180 or so MPH far exceeds that of a small bar of steel traveling at a much slower speed. I regard people as flesh, or in other words, small balls of water surrounded by a layer of soap intermeshed with protein fibers.

"I beat the kill-bots by sending wave after wave of men at them, until they reached their pre-set kill limit and shut down."

GoC
2008-01-18, 10:16 AM
No creatures the size of adult humans regularly surviving 200' falls. Nothing comes even close, yet in DnD it's not that remarkable of a stunt.

There really isn't RAW explaination for many feats (at least not believable ones). For example how do you realistically explain great cleave? What about great cleave by an animal using a bite attack? I don't see how it can be done, do you?
If said adult is 10x more durable than your normal human he will easily survive. Just replace his skin with carbon nanotube weave or something.
Cleave with bite attack will probably require houseruling that it doesn't work. Saying that other things are ridiculous just means they should be houseruled too.


DnD is a game with unrealistic magic and unrealistic feats and unrealistic armor and unrealistic just about everything. So maybe the hatred that mage slayers have for magicusers is a type of magic itself (sort of like evasion, which really has to be magical to make anysense, as does uncanny dodge) and that allows the fighter to penetrate the mage's defenses.
Evasion! The one thing I dislike more than the Pierce Magic feats.
If it was magic then it wouldn't work in an anti-magic field AND the feat wouldn't make sense (I hate magic and mages but use it anyway).

You're right about my 5th level build, it needs revision...


That's not what feat says. It says something in line of: "Your condemn for magic is so great that any caster near you is screwed and he knows it.".
I'm talking about Pierce Magical Protection.


Potion of Enlarge Person + Reach Weapon = 20ft reach.
Don't you mean 15ft?

Telonius
2008-01-18, 10:55 AM
Has there been any critique of my 3rd-level Wizard strategy yet? (Blur+Mirror Image). It works fairly well with any Wizard build. At that point, the Wizard would only be behind by 2 for the BAB, and the fighter is unlikely to have a magic weapon (it would eat up 66%+ of their resources). A fighter would not be able to take Pierce Magical Concealment yet - one of the prereqs is Mage Slayer, which requires +3BAB. You could only get Mage Slayer at 3rd level using your normal feat slot, and would have to wait until 4th to get Pierce Magical Concealment.

marjan
2008-01-18, 10:57 AM
I'm talking about Pierce Magical Protection.


I thought the Mage Slayer was in question. My bad.



Don't you mean 15ft?

Reach weapons double your natural reach.

vrellum
2008-01-20, 10:15 AM
Has there been any critique of my 3rd-level Wizard strategy yet? (Blur+Mirror Image). It works fairly well with any Wizard build. At that point, the Wizard would only be behind by 2 for the BAB, and the fighter is unlikely to have a magic weapon (it would eat up 66%+ of their resources). A fighter would not be able to take Pierce Magical Concealment yet - one of the prereqs is Mage Slayer, which requires +3BAB. You could only get Mage Slayer at 3rd level using your normal feat slot, and would have to wait until 4th to get Pierce Magical Concealment.

I'd say that 5th level fighter I posted last page, scaled back to 3rd level would be a tough challenge for you mage:

I'd say a 3rd level (not human or he'd have another feat) fighter with:
heavy shield
shortsword

shield specialization
shield ward
combat expertise
close quarters combat

Again, he isn't optomized for much, except somewhat for defense.

His AC is going to be too high for the wizard to hit with anything less than a 20 (except for true strike).

AC at 3rd level 10 + 8 (full plate) + 2 (heavy shield) + 1 (shield spec) +1 dex = 22 or 25 with combat expertise.

AB at 3rd level = 3 + 2 = 5

Wizard's AC: 10 + 4 (mage armor) + 4 (shield) + 1 (dex) - 1 (size) = 18
wizard's AB : 2 + 2 (str) - 1 (size) = 3

fighter hits wizard on a 13+, however he hits the images on a 5+, so they won't last long. Then it's down to the blur which adds an equivalent of about 4 points of AC.
wizard hits fighter on a 19 or 20 (w/o true strike)

End analysis fighter hits on a 18+ after the 1st couple of rounds
Wizard always hits on a 20+
(this is assuming the fighter knows) how much to expertise for or

fighter hits on a 17+
and wizard hits on a 19+

The fighter has 10 + 11 + 6 = 27 hp
The wizard has 4 + 5 + 6 = 15 hp

The fighter does d6+2 = 5.5
The wizard does d8+3 = 7.5

Fighter takes wizard in 3 hits
wizard takes fighter in 4 hits

So the fighter hits twice as often as the mage and it takes one more hit for the mage to takeout the fighter.

The wizard has to cast 3 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells to pull off his attack and they are short duration spells, so he doesn't get to cast true strike.

In short I think the wizard has used up all of his useful abilities (his spells) for this one combat and he will probably lose. Granted, the dice still have to be rolled, so anything can happen. However, even if the wizard does win, he is worthless for the rest of the day. The fighter, OTOH probably still has some utility left and if he can be healed he is 100% again. The wizard will probably need healing and he won't be able to do anything.

These characters were built with least something approaching a 25 pt buy.
fighter
s 15, con 14, dex 12, int 13

wizard
s 12, con 14, dex 12, int 15