How did Haley know Thanh was Dominated?

[Fitzclowningham]

I mean, spellcasters say the name of their spells when they cast them, but I think that is for us D&D geeks. I don't think (?) that characters present at a spell's casting automatically know which one it was. Did Haley witness enough to know which spell had been cast on Thanh?

Or, is this just a big crate of Plot!

[Chronos]

If nothing else, Tsukiko explicitly told Haley "I've got your paladin friend under my magical control, here" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0517.html).

[Fitzclowningham]

I might conclude that she charmed him. Haley was confident that he was dominated. I was just wondering if someone more cleareyed than I noticed something that indicated Domination.

[FoE]

Also, the whole "attacking her and trying to kill her" thing was probably a big tip-off. :smalltongue:

@^: But Charm wouldn't have compelled Thanh to attack Haley. Under a "Charm Person" spell, Thanh would have only tried to kill Haley if he actually wanted to kill her. Considering she was the leader of the Resistance, he probably wouldn't have wanted to do so.

[FujinAkari]

I might conclude that she charmed him. Haley was confident that he was dominated. I was just wondering if someone more cleareyed than I noticed something that indicated Domination.

I would assume it is because Thanh attacked her without being ordered too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), and was not acting in Tsukiko's defense.

Charm doesn't enable telepathic commands, and so Thanh would have no reason to attack Haley just for being a thief, unless Tsukiko had said something to that effect, which she didn't.

[Rolaran]

Unless I'm mistaken, domination causes the victim to act rather unnaturally - not just in the sense of doing things they would not normally do, but causing them them to seem unnaturally single-minded and dull-witted. Unless Thanh normally chants "Must attack" during combat, he was exhibiting very odd behaviour - and maybe Haley recognizes the symptoms of domination.

[FujinAkari]

Unless I'm mistaken, domination causes the victim to act rather unnaturally - not just in the sense of doing things they would not normally do, but causing them them to seem unnaturally single-minded and dull-witted.

There isn't anything about that in the spell description:


You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind.

If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically.

Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).

Changing your instructions or giving a dominated creature a new command is the equivalent of redirecting a spell, so it is a move action.

By concentrating fully on the spell (a standard action), you can receive full sensory input as interpreted by the mind of the subject, though it still can’t communicate with you. You can’t actually see through the subject’s eyes, so it’s not as good as being there yourself, but you still get a good idea of what’s going on.

Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it.

If you don’t spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination.

Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect neither prevents the establishment of domination nor dispels it.

[Rolaran]

Apparently I am, in fact, mistaken. That was how I interpreted it, because in the campaigns I've played dominated characters tend to end up giving themselves away by their tendency to act like robots (thus explaining the easier Sense Motive DC). However, I guess this isn't specified in the spell itself, it just says the DC is lower. Alright then, carry on with the theorizing.

[Porthos]

She noticed that Thanh's eyes matched Tsukiko's. :smalltongue:

After all, members of the OotS have noticed the eyes of a mind controlled character before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) :smallamused:

[The Extinguisher]

Maybe she's into that sort of thing.

[Nerd_Paladin]

***SPOILERS***

3:1 odds that when Thanh comes to his senses he will give an overly dramatic speech about how he has failed his friends and brought shame and dishonor to his family/city/gods/Sapphire Guard, etc.

2:1 odds that Haley chews him out in a fashion that casts derision on the entire Paladin class, including on his proclamations of shame and dishonor.

5:1 odds that he tries to off himself when he learns that he was indirectly responsible for a comrade's death.

3:2 odds that Belkar complains when Haley stops him.

[Zeb The Troll]

I don't know. I can see "because of this limited range of activity" being interpreted as "unnaturally single minded". Doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

[Borris]

There isn't anything about that in the spell description:

You should reread your own quote, because it's right there in your post. While spells like charm person don't alter the victim's personality and are thus quite hard to notice, dominate spells are a lot more obvious, and only require a relatively easy Sense Motive check.


Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).

Even without any ranks of Sense Motive (which is a class-skill for rogues), it's far from unlikely that Haley would succeed on that check. And if nothing else, I'm sure that Thanh running after her along with a bunch of wights and Tsukiko in #519 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html) would be a big enough hint.

[FujinAkari]

You should reread your own quote, because it's right there in your post. While spells like charm person don't alter the victim's personality and are thus quite hard to notice, dominate spells are a lot more obvious, and only require a relatively easy Sense Motive check.

The question was whether or not Dominate Person causes the afflicted to act robotically single-minded, which it does not (explicitly.)

I did not say it caused no changes in their personality, merely that the assertion given (that it causes the victim to become dull-witted) was incorrect.

[Zeb The Troll]

The question was whether or not Dominate Person causes the afflicted to act robotically single-minded, which it does not (explicitly.)

I did not say it caused no changes in their personality, merely that the assertion given (that it causes the victim to become dull-witted) was incorrect.I think "to the exclusion of all other activities" implies single minded though, wouldn't you say?

[Crimson Avenger]

Keep in mind that if Domination is used to make a person do something that they don't want to do, they recieve a new save with a +2 bonus. I didn't see anything indicating that Thanh was resisting control. Therefore, he really did want to attack Haley because of her rogue-ish-ness. A prime example of a paladin doing what paladins do.

[Arles]

It really surprised me that the paladin couldn't save against that spell :P

[Wolfwood2]

It really surprised me that the paladin couldn't save against that spell :P

Thanh probably isn't all that high level.

[sihnfahl]

It really surprised me that the paladin couldn't save against that spell :P
Thanh wasn't particularly high level. He can turn undead (4th level for Paladins). But the wights (4HD) weren't destroyed; wights are destroyed at cleric level 8...

[Craig1f]

Keep in mind that if Domination is used to make a person do something that they don't want to do, they recieve a new save with a +2 bonus. I didn't see anything indicating that Thanh was resisting control. Therefore, he really did want to attack Haley because of her rogue-ish-ness. A prime example of a paladin doing what paladins do.

I noticed that too. I thought it was very clever, if widely overlooked, that instead of saying "kill Haley", she said "That thief injured me!" I don't think he would have gotten a second save, because he's just killing a thief now.

I'd argue that, maybe, you'd have to have him dominated AND charmed for that to work though.

[ZFR]

Haley was confident that he was dominated.

How about a normal good old-fashioned guess on Haley's part?

Don't people often make confident statements about the state of something even if they are not really sure?

[chibibar]

Tsukiko is smart. She knows that Paladin usually punish people who did bad things. Tsukiko said that the THIEF hurts me. This is a normal action of a paladin to fight against people who hurt other people and it doesn't help that Haley is a thief too ;)

So Thahn does not get a save check since it is a normal action for him.

As for the "robotic like" action, I think it is more of the mind than action. The paladin will use any of his ability to do what needs to be done (thus DO have some personal control in terms of abilities) but won't act against Tsukiko under the spell. It would be silly if the spell is totally basic in terms that Tsukiko would have to direct each individual action (attack left, attack right, block block etc etc)

[hajo]

spellcasters say the name of their spells when they cast them, but I think that is for us D&D geeks. I don't think (?) that characters present at a spell's casting automatically know which one it was.
We have seen that in several comics, e.g. #345 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html) (V vs. druid)
and #456 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) (RedCloak vs. cleric).

[Craig1f]

Tsukiko is smart. She knows that Paladin usually punish people who did bad things. Tsukiko said that the THIEF hurts me. This is a normal action of a paladin to fight against people who hurt other people and it doesn't help that Haley is a thief too ;)

So Thahn does not get a save check since it is a normal action for him.

As for the "robotic like" action, I think it is more of the mind than action. The paladin will use any of his ability to do what needs to be done (thus DO have some personal control in terms of abilities) but won't act against Tsukiko under the spell. It would be silly if the spell is totally basic in terms that Tsukiko would have to direct each individual action (attack left, attack right, block block etc etc)

Dominate is widely considered to be more robotic though. For example, if you command a dominated creature to "track your friends and kill them", and the dominated creature is a ranger, he is likely to only use his Track skill to find his friends. This means, he is likely to ignore other clues about his party's whereabouts, that do not involve tracking.

If the command is to "act normal", then the dominated creature will not act dominated, unless they are given a new command.

My barbarian has been domianted for the last two sessions. The DM has done a good job of tricking me into not thinking I was dominated. At the beginning of last session, he had me roll a will save against the command "find your friends and kill them." I roll a 14, +2 for being told to kill my friends, +4 for endurance (he allows endurance for any kind of save that I take repeatedly, including domination), +4 for my character's will bonus, + another 3 from a 1d6 I rolled by spending an action point. He told me after the fact that a 24 would not have saved (so the action point saved me.)

So my character snaps back to his senses, realizes he was dominated, finds the group, and begs their forgiveness. He explains everything he learned while dominated (the BBEG stole our magic carpet, and did a few other things).

Later, on a boat we're using to chase after the BBEG, while on watch, I'm given the order to "kill my friends in their sleep." I'm shocked.

The DM explains "earlier, you were ordered to act like you just broke the spell, find your friends, and act normal. You were not given a save, because you WANTED to break the spell and act normal. The save I had you roll was for this command happening right now, which you pass. By the way, why the hell didn't any of you cast detect magic on him? I mean, seriously, that should have been like step 1."

So, now I'm investing in Iron Will, Steadfast Determination, a +2 resistance cloak, and going after the Holy Liberator class.

[Crimson Avenger]

Now that's a GM I could like playing with. awesome.

[Craig1f]

Now that's a GM I could like playing with. awesome.

He's pretty damn good, and highly adaptable. He's thrown a lot of unbalanced battles at us, but we've managed to thwart them. A Devil tried to imprison us. I was able to grapple him, and hold him down while we throttled him. He rolled three consecutive concentration checks that all failed, rolling below a 6, otherwise the Devil would have been able to teleport away, even while pinned.

I asked him later how he expected us to defeat him. He says "I didn't really. I expected you all to run. He probably would have taken a couple of you down. You got a lot more information than you were supposed to on this mission, since you were able to defeat him and then continue investigating that tower, rather than having to run away."

He does not railroad us. Before I joined (this was my first character), the party had gone against his obvious railroad plot, and attempted to raid an island, that he made clear was too strong for the party. The island was filled with orcs performing a ritual to help turn the tide in the war against the humans. The party goes there at level 4, and through a liberal application of stealth, and some good decisions, we were able to make it through most of the island. That was until we cornered ourselves in a cave, and had the entire army waiting outside.

My character, a half-orc, managed to convince their negotiators that we were a band of orcs, who wanted in on the ritual, and had been attacked on site twice.

Eventually we find an opportunity to try to rush outside. We have the warlock cast darkness on a few dozens pebbles, and we run for it, with about 40 freed elven prisoners behind us.

The enemy orcs all have barbarian levels, and are able to chase us down. Somehow, through VERY good rolls, and by using all of our action points, we're able to drop about 20 orcs and get away. This island was meant to be an appropriate encounter for level 6 characters, we're level 4.

After we leave the island, the DM was telling me "if you'd just followed the railroad plot, the orcs would have taken over Great Bay, and enslaved everyone. You'd be retreating into foreign lands and trying to rally. You weren't able to stop their ritual, but by freeing most of the elvish sacrifices, and stealing most of their ritual daggers, and killing a lot of them, you were able to dramatically weaken the ritual, which is why Great Bay is simply losing the war right now, and hasn't lost it. I sort of like having to redesign the entire world around what you guys do."

I'm really liking this campaign, although it is my first. Although, I've been in two others now with the same group.

[Draz74]

Well, duh, if Thanh was hit by Charm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html) or Suggestion, he'd have swirly eyes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html).

[Forealms]

She noticed that Thanh's eyes matched Tsukiko's. :smalltongue:

After all, members of the OotS have noticed the eyes of a mind controlled character before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) :smallamused:

Well, the OotS seems to be super-perceptive on how eyes look (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html).

[Dentarg]

I'm going to put it in a very easy way...

Natural 20 on a Spellcraft check?

[Bel_Bel]

I forgot exactly when or where Rich said this, but (and I'm paraphrasing here) in the OOTS universe, you cast a spell by saying its name. Everyone can hear it normally.

So all Haley had to do was hear Tsukiko "cast" the spell during the battle, and she would have known.

[Penquin47]

Maybe, after three months of study, she knows that Tsukiko chose to use her spells known to learn more necromancy stuff instead of Charm Person or Suggestion?

[Talic]

.. and that "Coming to help, Mistress..." bit is hardly in keeping with his normal character.

[Irbis]

I forgot exactly when or where Rich said this, but (and I'm paraphrasing here) in the OOTS universe, you cast a spell by saying its name. Everyone can hear it normally.

So all Haley had to do was hear Tsukiko "cast" the spell during the battle, and she would have known.

Um, in that case spellcraft would be useless.

[exalted]

Well, I think it is kinda obvious that he is dominated, and Haley would have saw through it. In the PHB under the skill sense motive, one of the uses is actually to sense an enchantment on a person. Charm person has a dc of 25, but dominate person has only a dc of 15 because of limited range of the tartet's activities. A few times in the comic Haley has shown to have ranks in sense motive.

[DoomITP]

thanh was dominated? i didnt know he was into that kinky stuff..

- belkar lol