The Borg in Sci-Fi

[ArlEammon]

So, this isn't a v.s thread. Its a thread that focuses on how powerful the Borg are. I'm curious, it stands to reason that the Borg could conquer the entire Alpha Quadrant with ease, maybe even stalemate Species 8472, so why is it that the Borg lose so much in v.s debates?

To answer this question, I'd like a discussion of both pro-Borg and anti-Borg posters to have a conversation about what it would take to be reasonably superior to the Borg without completely blowing them out of the water, so to speak

[North]

Borg have great technology but zero sense of strategy.

[FoE]

The problem is with the Borg is that they are so powerful, any enemy that is capable of taking them out has to have immense strength, ie. Species 8472, who could destroy Borg cubes with a single shot and were able to resist assimilation.

[Lady Tialait]

The Borg are HUGEly powerful, and infact are really great stragists, but they are stobborn, they choose not to use their full abilities to the point they almost show up to not have them, After all, think battle of the wolf.

The whole problem with them is they are lazy, they come in say 'Give it guys, you can't win' then take what they want.

Seriously, they are lazy superpowerful creatures, But persoanlly I think even Q respects them.

[Logic]

The problem with the Borg is that the writers downplay their strengths to allow the protagonists to win.

If the Borg were playing by the rules other than those proscribed by the writers, then the Borg would simply overrun the Delta Quadrant, move on to the Beta and Gamma Quadrants, and then shortly thereafter flank the Alpha quadrant. They have the ships, the manpower (Borgpower?) and the technology to do it, yet for some reason they are content with their current sphere of control, while occasionally making a failed attempt to take Earth with a lone ship.

[thubby]

The problem with the Borg is that the writers downplay their strengths to allow the protagonists to win.

If the Borg were playing by the rules other than those proscribed by the writers, then the Borg would simply overrun the Delta Quadrant, move on to the Beta and Gamma Quadrants, and then shortly thereafter flank the Alpha quadrant. They have the ships, the manpower (Borgpower?) and the technology to do it, yet for some reason they are content with their current sphere of control, while occasionally making a failed attempt to take Earth with a lone ship.

thats a matter of efficiency, how many ships would an attack now cost? 4-5 I figure. why bother when we can wait and just be able to crush them as our tech evolves.
they face a number of awkward dilemma, they need new minds to increase their power, but they can't up and conquer everything without setting an immediate upper limit to their ability. they are parasites.
another issue they face. if they can beat you, they want to assimilate you, if they can't assimilate you, its worth losing the cube/sphere rather than destroy you, because killing anythign means losing that potential power.
in effect, borg don't want to kill anything.

[thubby]

double post, woops.

[FoE]

If the Borg were playing by the rules other than those proscribed by the writers, then the Borg would simply overrun the Delta Quadrant, move on to the Beta and Gamma Quadrants, and then shortly thereafter flank the Alpha quadrant. They have the ships, the manpower (Borgpower?) and the technology to do it, yet for some reason they are content with their current sphere of control, while occasionally making a failed attempt to take Earth with a lone ship.

Not true. In Star Trek: Voyager, the crew encounters several species that have been attacked and nearly wiped out by the Borg. In fact, I believe it was the Season 4 finale that pits Voyager against Species 8472, who invades the Delta Quadrant in response to a failed Borg invasion. And in another episode, an alien tries to kill Janeway for interfering in the war between the Borg and Species 8472; their conflict was his species' last hope that the Borg would be defeated and his own race saved. After Species 8472 retreated to fluidic space, the Borg resumed their invasion of his homeworld and assimilated his entire civilization.

It's important to remember that the Borg's territory was so vast that it would have taken Voyager ... five years? ten years? .... in order to cross it. The Borg are always pushing outward, but they do encounter resistance, and there are also some species the Borg are not interested in assimilating (the Kazon, for example, as they were regarded to be "inferior specimens").

The only reason the Borg never invaded Earth with more than one cube is the distance between the Delta Quadrant and the Alpha Quadrant.

[averagejoe]

The only reason the Borg never invaded Earth with more than one cube is the distance between the Delta Quadrant and the Alpha Quadrant.

That shouldn't matter. As Voyager demonstrated, the Borg have a network of magic FTL portals that can get them to the alpha quadron in a matter of minutes.

[SpiderMew]

The Borg didnt even encounter humans untill they were able to mount a resistance.
I think its another point by the writers to show the strength of the human imaganation, here's the most feared force in the galixy and humans manage to stop them at every turn, and heck even are able to convert those captured into the collective back into mostly normal humans.

Yes they have magic tunnels that can transport ships to earth real fast.
But apprently they cant the song of the collective to transmit though these tubes or they would have brought in a larger force to take over earth.
The borg like to grow, and if they were allowed to sit and justate, they would have eventualy grown to the point were earth wasnt a long trip for them.
And i dont think they even got those tunnels untill some time durring Voyager, the last memeber of the species who's people were decamated after voyager pushed back species 8472, his ship had slipstream tech, and i think thats how the borg got that.

[Logic]

Not true. In Star Trek: Voyager, the crew encounters several species that have been attacked and nearly wiped out by the Borg. In fact, I believe it was the Season 4 finale that pits Voyager against Species 8472, who invades the Delta Quadrant in response to a failed Borg invasion. And in another episode, an alien tries to kill Janeway for interfering in the war between the Borg and Species 8472; their conflict was his species' last hope that the Borg would be defeated and his own race saved. After Species 8472 retreated to fluidic space, the Borg resumed their invasion of his homeworld and assimilated his entire civilization.

It's important to remember that the Borg's territory was so vast that it would have taken Voyager ... five years? ten years? .... in order to cross it. The Borg are always pushing outward, but they do encounter resistance, and there are also some species the Borg are not interested in assimilating (the Kazon, for example, as they were regarded to be "inferior specimens").

The only reason the Borg never invaded Earth with more than one cube is the distance between the Delta Quadrant and the Alpha Quadrant.
In every instance of the Borg attacking a civilization*, we know of only one planet that that particular civilization has control of.** Considering their might and size, as well as their "conquerer" style nature, Borg turf should increase exponentially, yet they rarely take on civilizations that can put up a decent fight.

Artanis (the Alien you mentioned that planned to give the Voyager to the Borg in revenge for the assimilation of his homeworld) had technology that was quite far above the technology level of the U.S.S. Voyager, at the time, still a state-of-the-art Intrepid class starship, and yet some of it was so similar, that it barely registered as an advance to the crew of Voyager. I still say the power of plot overrides the logical sense of the borg here.


*The episode where the Borg Queen has captured Seven of Nine and is trying to brainwash her into being Borg again is the only reference I can easily recall.
**This may be the last planet this civilization has control of, but it was implied they had no others, and the Borg were surprising the species by invading.

[North]

Seriously, they are lazy superpowerful creatures, But persoanlly I think even Q respects them.

I wouldnt say that Q respects them per say. But I would say that Q thinks they are one of the most dangerous threats out there, since they thats what he choose to frighten Captain Picard with.

[d'Bwobsling]

Borg have great technology but zero sense of strategy.

Are you kidding? the borg are extremely well coordanatid with each other because they share the same thoughts. their problem is that they can only use stategies from aliens that they assimilate; when you think up a new plan, it will work alot more of the time.

edit: I'm all for a borg thread, but shouldn't this be under media discusions?

[FoE]

That shouldn't matter. As Voyager demonstrated, the Borg have a network of magic FTL portals that can get them to the alpha quadron in a matter of minutes.

You have me there, averagejoe. I forgot about the brilliantly stupid series finale of Voyager. Thanks, lazy hacks who wrote for Voyager, you jackasses. :smallmad:

Logic, the season leading up to the big encounter with the Borg saw Voyager come into contact with several civilizations that had nearly been wiped out by the Borg. Remember when they encountered Icheb's "parents," the one that infected him with the Borg-destroying virus? Their race had nearly been destroyed. In the episode "Blood Fever," when B'Elanna accidentally gets ... infected, I guess ... with the pon far, they encounter a race who have been nearly wiped out by the Borg and are forced to hide under their planet's surface.

And then there's Species 8472 to consider; you haven't really countered that example, either. That conflict was caused directly by the Borg "pushing out."

It's worth considering that, during Voyager's run, the battle with Species 8472 had likely resulted in such devastating losses for the Borg that their presence in the Delta Quadrant was greatly diminished.

[Logic]

You have me there, averagejoe. I forgot about the brilliantly stupid series finale of Voyager. Thanks, lazy hacks who wrote for Voyager, you jackasses. :smallmad:

Logic, the season leading up to the big encounter with the Borg saw Voyager come into contact with several civilizations that had nearly been wiped out by the Borg. Remember when they encountered Icheb's "parents," the one that infected him with the Borg-destroying virus? Their race had nearly been destroyed. In the episode "Blood Fever," when B'Elanna accidentally gets ... infected, I guess ... with the pon far, they encounter a race who have been nearly wiped out by the Borg and are forced to hide under their planet's surface.

And then there's Species 8472 to consider; you haven't really countered that example, either. That conflict was caused directly by the Borg "pushing out."

It's worth considering that, during Voyager's run, the battle with Species 8472 had likely resulted in such devastating losses for the Borg that their presence in the Delta Quadrant was greatly diminished.

Ok, I am soundly whipped.

I blame my defeat on watching too little Voyager for reference. :smalltongue:

[Dhavaer]

The reason the Borg tend to lose vs. debates is primarily that the opponents they tend to be matched up against are the Galactic Empire and the Imperium of Man, both of which are easily capable of wiping out the Borg. Less common opponents are those introduced for the purpose of giving either Empire or Imperium a challenge (Protoss, Culture, Xeelee) and are therefore also more powerful than the Borg. Occasionally an opponent is introduced to give the Borg an easy win, although this doesn't always work (There has been at least one debate as to whether drones are a match for Napoleonic infantry, the answer seemed to be: possibly. It's generally accepted that they can beat cavemen, however.).

The other major reason is that Borg developed in the paradigm of the Trekverse, where almost everyone uses subspace technology and frequency-based energy weapons and shielding. This is what allows adaptation: match your shields to your enemies' weapons (or vice versa) and you can only be defeated through brute force (expending so much energy the shield can't take it). However, this is a liability against opponents whose energy weapons aren't frequency based (which is all of them, I think). A starbreaker beam doesn't have a coherent frequency to match with, so even if the Borg could create a shield that could block it, some of the energy would get through while the shield was at less than maximum strength. Projectile weapons, of course, don't have frequencies. Trekverse ships don't tend to do well against physical impacts, either.

[FoE]

I've been thinking about this a little bit, and I think I still have one last point to make.

It's been asked why the Borg don't simply take over the Delta Quadrant, given their numbers and technological superiority.

But the Borg arent' conquerors, per se. Yes, they do invade other worlds and assimilate other species, but it's all aimed at achieving the Borg holy grail: perfection. The Borg only assimilate species if their biological/technological distinctiveness will add to their Collective. In fact, the Borg have been known to simply ignore species that would detract from perfection, such as the Kazon.

The Borg shouldn't be confused with Stargate's Replicators, whose sole purpose is merely to consume resources and continually expand their numbers. The Replicators are driven towards domination of the galaxy, whereas conquest is merely a means to an end for the Borg.