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Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 10:57 AM
I have recently changed alignments to LG in our campaign. Even though I'm no paladin, the GM insists that I give him a list of ten things that I absolutely won't do to violate my new alignment. He is a hard core LG hater, paladin or otherwise, and I'm looking for some suggestions that won't give hime to many opportunities to penalize my character at every turn. (And yes...he will try to penalize my character at evey turn because of alignment.)

Baxbart
2008-01-15, 11:00 AM
Kick squirrels?


... Ok, maybe not... How about never refusing a request for aid (As long as the person requesting it appears to be honest in intent)?

Zenos
2008-01-15, 11:01 AM
I have recently changed alignments to LG in our campaign. Even though I'm no paladin, the GM insists that I give him a list of ten things that I absolutely won't do to violate my new alignment. He is a hard core LG hater, paladin or otherwise, and I'm looking for some suggestions that won't give hime to many opportunities to penalize my character at every turn. (And yes...he will try to penalize my character at evey turn because of alignment.)

Firstly, your DM sounds like a jerk.

Second; "Don't harm innocents" would be good, maybe "don't take anyne else's legal property unless that property is being used for evil and must therefore be confiscated".

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 11:04 AM
Mark is a little high strung, but he really is an excellent Star Wars GM. And this is his best D&D campaign by far, as he's using the SCAP. He's just very, very anti-lawful.

Harming innocents is a little broad when you consider the moral implications of children living in evil societies, ie. orcs and ogres. But I have no problem opposing the bloodthirsty slaughter of evil races children.

Artanis
2008-01-15, 11:06 AM
I have recently changed alignments to LG in our campaign. Even though I'm no paladin, the GM insists that I give him a list of ten things that I absolutely won't do to violate my new alignment. He is a hard core LG hater, paladin or otherwise, and I'm looking for some suggestions that won't give hime to many opportunities to penalize my character at every turn. (And yes...he will try to penalize my character at evey turn because of alignment.)
From the sounds of it, I'd suggest just going NG instead of LG if your DM is that much of a jackass. Getting screwed over at every turn probably isn't really worth one single solitary step on the alignment chart.


If you're really determined to go LG though, you can include "I absolutely won't be so stuck up that I'm unwilling to deviate from my code if the situation really demands it." ...or just make that the one and only entry on the list :smalltongue:

Zenos
2008-01-15, 11:07 AM
Mark is a little high strung, but he really is an excellent Star Wars GM. And this is his best D&D campaign by far, as he's using the SCAP. He's just very, very anti-lawful.

Harming innocents is a little broad when you consider the moral implications of children living in evil societies, ie. orcs and ogres. But I have no problem opposing the bloodthirsty slaughter of evil races children.

Hmmm, maybe "Won't willingly behave disrespectful of any other religion"? It kind of sounds lawful but allows some freedom and it only says "behave" not "think", so you could still think the high priest of hextor is a jerk.

Green Bean
2008-01-15, 11:15 AM
Hmmm, maybe "Won't willingly behave disrespectful of any other religion"? It kind of sounds lawful but allows some freedom and it only says "behave" not "think", so you could still think the high priest of hextor is a jerk.

Maybe take it a step further, and apply it to more than just religions. Something like, "Won't treat others with disrespect unless given good reason."

Try to give yourself an out with these statements by adding things like "whenever possible", or "to the best of my ability", or "unless given good reason". That way, the DM won't screw you over if you say hurtful things to the guy who stabs children with the sharpened bones of murdered puppies (and it gives you a way to back down if the party disagrees with you on something).

The_Werebear
2008-01-15, 11:17 AM
A lawful good list that has enough free space for you to work without being tripped up all the time. Not that most of the stuff just applies to you, so your friends can do what you can't if you turn away, puke, and give the occasional disapproving glance.

1) I will not attempt to mind control anyone into changing their viewpoints.
2) I will not steal unless I deem it for the greater good.
3) I will not intentionally kill unless I deem it for the greater good (I'll knock you down to 1 hit point, tie you up, and drag you to justice unless a party member kills you first, which I have no problem with)
4) I will not personally engage in torture.
5) I will not sell my soul to demons
6) I will not sell my soul to devils.
7) I will respect rightful authority. Note, this doesn't mean I will obey them all the time, especially if I think they are wrong in a certain situation, but I will always take the time to consider their viewpoints and explain why I think they are wrong if it is applicable.
8) I will not molest anyone (Unless everyone else on the planet is dead and it is for breeding purposes. It would probably be willing then, but hey, can't be too careful).
9) I will not consume souls to gain the power of the deities.
10) I will not worship any evil deity.

Sofaking
2008-01-15, 11:20 AM
Is he forcing the other players to do this? Is he forcing any of the Chaotic Evil characters to tell him 10 laws they always break? This just sounds stupid.

Shatenjager
2008-01-15, 11:22 AM
Hmmmm....
I'm kinda assuming a paladin here.

Will not kill someone unless they are trying to kill me.
Will not take a living being's property unless they are evil.
Will not attack a helpless foe.
Will not kill children (come on just leave the goblin runts outta this).
Will not destroy the property of a non-evil creature (unless permission is gained)
Will not take place in any evil rituals.
Will not work for an evil employer.
Will not sleep with someone who is not married to you.
Will not miss the holy festival of __________ (insert annual festival name here).
Will not defile a good temple.
Will not willingly create the undead.

Take or leave them. Basically though it sounds like you could just think up horrible things and claim that you wouldn't do them. These are a bit more broad, but there are only a few there that I can see an active problem coming up with you being unable to do them.

Saph
2008-01-15, 11:24 AM
I don't think this is a very good way to define a character. Being Lawful Good isn't about what you won't do, it's about what you will do. All this encourages you to do is come up with convoluted wordings to avoid every possible loophole.

"I promise not to hurt children, as long as they're not trying to kill me, and aren't possessed by a demon or a devil, and aren't constructs made by a wizard, and aren't evil races that are just as bad as their parents, and aren't undead, and aren't insane or murderous, and aren't dominated, and aren't about to do something incredibly bad, and aren't . . . (deep breath)"

If your DM absolutely insists, then come up with ten things which are so obviously and totally anti-Lawful-Good that you'd have to be a complete idiot to even consider that a Lawful Good character might do them. "I will not sacrifice innocent children to Tiamat", say.

Or you could read the "Things I'd Do If I'm Ever the Hero" (http://www.sff.net/paradise/overlord.html#hero) list and copy a few of those out. Here are a few samples:


2. I will ignore the Evil Overlord's arguments revolving around honor and/or morality. If he were really all that worked up about either, he would never have become an Evil Overlord in the first place.

3. When the Evil Overlord takes hostages, I will presume the hostages dead and hold a memorial service. Any promises made by the Evil Overlord regarding their safe return shall be summarily ignored. My loved ones will be warned to expect this.

4. I will not walk alone and undisguised into a bar in the Evil Overlord's territory in order to meet with an ex-associate who said a bunch of damaging things about me in one of the Evil Overlord's propaganda pieces.

5. When the Evil Overlord is hanging on the cliff by his fingers, I will not try to help him up. If time and means are available, I'll kill him then and there.

6. When I am advised to destroy a magical artifact taken from the Evil Overlord, I will do so.

7. Anyone inquiring after the secret of my strength will be fed a line of plausible baloney as to how this strength can be lost. If the bogus advice is followed, the leak shall be properly investigated.

8. If an associate begins to transform into something large and threatening, I will immediately act to neutralize the threat, and not wait until the transformation is complete. Likewise, if an enemy begins to metamorphose into something else, I will immediately start whacking away at it, instead of watching in fascination.


- Saph

Person_Man
2008-01-15, 11:31 AM
I'd never do something like this to my PCs. How does this make the game more fun or interesting?

You might also want to explain that not everyone who is Lawful Good consider themselves bound to any strict moral code. They just hold Lawfulness and Goodness as ideals.

Most people believe in their government and in honesty, and yet they break laws (traffic laws, drug laws, libel laws) on a regular basis. Jaywalking doesn't make you Neutral or Chaotic. It just means that you're not rigidly Lawful. Being Lawful also implies honesty, and most people strive to be honest. And yet most people lie on a daily basis - about our weight, about our personal lives, about our preferences and opinions. Society isn't composed of pathological lairs. Rather, the very nature of our society requires people to lie in order to be polite (I don't tell my coworkers what I really think about their cloths, or about what I'm really doing on the weekend) and the definition of truth is constantly shifting (because of technology, social changes, etc).

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 11:35 AM
I'm getting some really good suggestions here, keep up the good work. The prestige class I've chosen requires LG behavior, and grants a few divine spells, so NG really isn't an option.

The setup is: The DM threw the Legacy Weapon Fiendkiller's Flail into the party, in the shape of my favored weapon. So to maximize this boon (SCAP has a great deal of evil outsiders apparently) I have decided to become a Knight of the Chalice, and then take Legacy Champion, leveling up my KotC as part of the prestige class. I intend to be the biggest, baddest fiend slayer ever.

Telonius
2008-01-15, 11:46 AM
1. Discretion is the better part of valor. I will not act like an idiot.
2. Mercy is a virtue. I will not harm a foe who I believe to be begging for mercy.
3. Some tools are evil, no matter the intent. I will not knowingly use magic with the Evil descriptor.
4. My liege's word is law, and his counsels are not my counsels. I will not disobey an order or a law simply because it makes no sense to me.
5. My liege's rule is rightful only insofar as he obeys the laws of the gods. I will not knowingly follow an order I believe to be evil.
6. My soul belongs to the gods. I will not bargain with it.
7. Affection is to be freely given and received. I will not take it forcibly.
8. The greatest art of war is to turn an enemy into a friend. I will not be discourteous to my foes, even in defeat.
9. My word is my bond. I will not take an oath lightly, nor will I fail to fulfill a given oath.
10. Death comes for us all; our worth is shown by how we meet it. I will never allow the threat of death - even the deaths of innocents - to sway my judgment.

Solo
2008-01-15, 11:51 AM
Just list ten things you would never do.

No rape, child molestation, thievery, flag burning, desertion from military service (unless the military is bad), etc.

Name_Here
2008-01-15, 12:00 PM
Well I usually try to get a feel for what my players think their character's morality is before the game starts but that's so that I can wok in a few challenges where they could take the easy way by violating their code or they can do things right and have a difficult fight but still a managable one. Course sounds like your DM isn't doing it to inprove your stake in the game so might as well bang out 10 that you really wouldn't do anyway.

1. No Rape
2. No killing of innocents for the greater good
3. No knowingly taking part in a plot to destroy the world
4. No picking fights to kill in self defense
5. No forcing beliefs upon others
6. No Torture
7. No Arson
8. Never pimp out women against their will
9. No incest
10. no desecration of bodies

Now the things I like about this list is that nothing in this list can be done without you actively taking part in it by saying "I'm going to do so-and-so" So he can't sneak an evil character in as a friend of employer and use it to say you have violated your code. Nor should any of these nessesary to do in order to survive.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 12:03 PM
1. Discretion is the better part of valor. I will not act like an idiot.
2. Mercy is a virtue. I will not harm a foe who I believe to be begging for mercy.
3. Some tools are evil, no matter the intent. I will not knowingly use magic with the Evil descriptor.
4. My liege's word is law, and his counsels are not my counsels. I will not disobey an order or a law simply because it makes no sense to me.
5. My liege's rule is rightful only insofar as he obeys the laws of the gods. I will not knowingly follow an order I believe to be evil.
6. My soul belongs to the gods. I will not bargain with it.
7. Affection is to be freely given and received. I will not take it forcibly.
8. The greatest art of war is to turn an enemy into a friend. I will not be discourteous to my foes, even in defeat.
9. My word is my bond. I will not take an oath lightly, nor will I fail to fulfill a given oath.
10. Death comes for us all; our worth is shown by how we meet it. I will never allow the threat of death - even the deaths of innocents - to sway my judgment.

This is a great list, definite aspects I can use.

warmachine
2008-01-15, 12:07 PM
First, make sure the DM understands that no written rule is absolute. Exceptions can happen. For example, 'do not treat prisoners badly' is a rule of the Church of Hieroneous and this reasonably includes feeding them properly. However, if food becomes scarce, putting them on half rations is not cruelty and giving them full rations and none yourself is stupid.

Written rules also have implicit, unwritten parts. In the above case, this depends on the prisoners behaving themselves, even though this is not written down. A violent prisoner who remorsely hurts fellow prisoners, even when manacled, may have to be beaten whereas model trustees can write letters in secret. The aforementioned Church allows escaping prisoners to be attacked.

I've played LG characters before, so I'll write some suggestions later.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 12:18 PM
Ok, here a little more background. Mark and I have a sort of cat and mouse relationship. Part of the fun of playing for me is that Mark is going to try to throw roadblocks in my path. I want to get 15 maybe 20 things I can hand to him and say, "Here ya go, have fun." The trick is making them broad enough that he has a chance to get his claws into my character, but narrow enough that he can't point to every other situation and go AHA! Unlike the other guys in the group, I don't mind when the GM screws with my character. In fact, I like being put into moral dilemas once in a while. It keeps the game interesting, and keeps me from just being a number crunching killing machine.

Keep them suggestions coming, I'm lovin it!

Zenos
2008-01-15, 12:27 PM
Rule 1. I will not follow a law if it becomes very impractical for me to do so.

Telonius
2008-01-15, 12:31 PM
This is a great list, definite aspects I can use.

Thanks! Personally I think #1 is the most important. They ought to print that right below "Lawful Good" in the PHB.

EvilElitest
2008-01-15, 12:39 PM
I have recently changed alignments to LG in our campaign. Even though I'm no paladin, the GM insists that I give him a list of ten things that I absolutely won't do to violate my new alignment. He is a hard core LG hater, paladin or otherwise, and I'm looking for some suggestions that won't give hime to many opportunities to penalize my character at every turn. (And yes...he will try to penalize my character at evey turn because of alignment.)

1. Don't murder evil people for being evil
2. Don't leave people to die
3. Don't kill the messenger
from
EE

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 01:02 PM
This is a fantastic start, I've already put several down on paper.

Such as:

I will not knowingly participate in torture for information, pleasure, or any other reason. However, I understand that not every lawfully ordained authority subscribes to my personal views.

I have to state it this way because we routinely hand over prisoners and suspects to the Church of St. Cuthbert for interrogation and justice.

The Lord's Oath in Stephen R Donaldson's books is another really good one

I will not kill where maiming is enough, I will not maim when injuring is enough, I will not injure when hurting is enough, I will not hurt when talking is enough.

Or something very similar.

warmachine
2008-01-15, 01:26 PM
Although one of my previous characters, a Cleric of Hieroneous, didn't follow formal rules, this is probably what it would be if written down.

Always protect the weak - it is the noncombatants that build better societies, warriors only destroy.
Only attack warriors or other combatants and allow women, children and elderly to escape, even for the savage species - slaughters cause hate and more war.
Never martyr yourself for hopeless causes - retreat and fight back another time.
Give at least 10% of your income to charity.
Never bring yourself or your church into disrepute - good reputation can stop a fight before it starts.
Try to reach an acceptable compromise, even in victory - grievances leads to more fighting.
Only draw a weapon when about to fight - a weapon in hand encourages fighting, which should be a last resort.
In one-on-one combat, give a failing opponent a chance to surrender - deaths lead to another cycle of vengeance.
Treat prisoners humanely - show that you aren't cruel even when it's easy.
Destroy all evil items and undead - these slowly corrupt the region by their mere presence.
Never suffer followers of Hextor to live - whereas the savage species are really protecting themselves, Hextor advocates a purer tyranny and only for pleasure.

Severus
2008-01-15, 02:26 PM
I don't know how academic you want to get, but I think what you want is to explore "Kantian" moral philosophy versus utilitarianism.

Immanuel Kant was a philosopher who asserted the "Ends do not justify the means." A utilitarian is one who seeks the course resulting in the greatest good, even if the path there is "murky".

Kant holds that you can never be sure of outcomes, only of your own actions, and therefore it is morally wrong to do wrong even if you believe that wrong will result in a greater good down the road.

So you won't do evil, ever, even if you have reason to believe that it would save the multiverse... because the future is unknown, but your immediate action is known.

If you've read any Arthurian mythos, you may have heard of the knight whose name escapes me who is told by a maiden "Sleep with me, knight, or I shall die at dawn." He refuses, for it would be a sin, and he cannot sin to do good. That's LG.

I think the key difference for a lawful person is this Kantian mindset. You don't break/bend the rules for a greater good. You do what is right and don't try to speculate on what would result in the greater good later. Obviously, people will fall from grace, but that gives you a goal.

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 02:39 PM
Kant holds that you can never be sure of outcomes, only of your own actions, and therefore it is morally wrong to do wrong even if you believe that wrong will result in a greater good down the road.

So you won't do evil, ever, even if you have reason to believe that it would save the multiverse... because the future is unknown, but your immediate action is known.

Ah, but then you have to define every single action you could possibly take as being "good" or "evil" (or at least, "evil" or "not"), in isolation; and decide what constitutes a "single action" and when you have multiple actions or levels of effect.


If you've read any Arthurian mythos, you may have heard of the knight whose name escapes me who is told by a maiden "Sleep with me, knight, or I shall die at dawn." He refuses, for it would be a sin, and he cannot sin to do good. That's LG.

As an example of the above... can't letting someone die when you could easily save them be argued to be an evil act? Isn't he committing evil, or sin, or whatever either way?

My intent isn't to get into the philosophical ramifications of this stuff, but to point out that CrimsonAvenger's DM easily could give him a hard time with a Kantian as much as with a utilitarian approach.

Telonius
2008-01-15, 02:50 PM
As an example of the above... can't letting someone die when you could easily save them be argued to be an evil act? Isn't he committing evil, or sin, or whatever either way?

Under that morality, no, he's not. He's only responsible for his own conscience. He's not the one who cast the spell on the woman; that evil act is on the wizard (or whoever)'s soul. By that moral system, it's the victim's duty to meet death honorably, rather than destroy another man's soul to save their own life. To the Knight, evil is evil. It's on or off, not any kind of scaling value. There's literally nothing he can do to save the woman that wouldn't result in him committing an Evil act. So the best he could manage would be to give her some painkillers, or provide some non-sexual comfort to her as she faces death.

(This is all within that moral framework; I don't necessarily agree with it).

Yeril
2008-01-15, 02:53 PM
3. Don't kill the messenger


But.. THIS IS SPARTA! *punt*


Remember to keep your points kinda vauge, that way he cant pin you down with some slight infraction. As was said before "to the best of my ability" is a fantastic phrase to sneak in.

Wow all this LG talk makes me want to go play a paladin.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 03:06 PM
Yeah, I've always kinda had a thing for a well played paladin.

Severus
2008-01-15, 06:00 PM
Ah, but then you have to define every single action you could possibly take as being "good" or "evil" (or at least, "evil" or "not"), in isolation; and decide what constitutes a "single action" and when you have multiple actions or levels of effect.



As an example of the above... can't letting someone die when you could easily save them be argued to be an evil act? Isn't he committing evil, or sin, or whatever either way?

My intent isn't to get into the philosophical ramifications of this stuff, but to point out that CrimsonAvenger's DM easily could give him a hard time with a Kantian as much as with a utilitarian approach.


My point wasn't the DM grief, my point is that this is the Lawful Good perspective, and to offer the player a deeper and richer source of moral philosophy to flesh out the character than he's going to find on a bulletin board :-)

In the case of the woman, you really can't be sure what the future will hold. Maybe god will miraculously cure her of the curse. Maybe she's lying or wrong. Who knows? What you can know is that sleeping with her is a sin. So you don't do the sin.

The point that Kant makes is that the only "knowable" part of the moral equation is the decision that is right in front of you. You can't be sure of outcomes, and therefore you shouldn't make a wrong decision in the hopes of getting a right outcome.

When you say "but it's evil, because she's going to die." you're saying you know what the future is and are sure of outcomes.

(note: I'm very much a utilitarian in life, but Kant has a valid point I think.)

Roderick_BR
2008-01-15, 06:13 PM
If you are willing to risk a bit, try the code of conduct of the Knight from Player's 2:
* Get no bonuses from flanking (still give flanking bonuses to allies, though).
* Never attack a flat-footed enemy. Wait till he is ready to attack (allies are free to attack still, you just spend your action in a defense action).
* You can't deal lethal damage against a helpless foe (only non-lethal damage to K.O. enemies).
These are not good aligned stuff, but strictly lawful stuff. It'll cost you some benefits in combat, but you can do it just to spite your DM :smalltongue:
You can get some levels of Knight too, but you'd need to take a good number of levels for it to be really good.

Dragonmuncher
2008-01-15, 11:54 PM
If your DM ever starts hassling you for breaking any of these things, you might want to refer to this closing argument. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html)

Alignments are ideals, not computer coding. Even if you're not ALWAYS LG, what's important is that you try. Heck, you're not even a paladin.

Talic
2008-01-16, 02:52 AM
I have recently changed alignments to LG in our campaign. Even though I'm no paladin, the GM insists that I give him a list of ten things that I absolutely won't do to violate my new alignment. He is a hard core LG hater, paladin or otherwise, and I'm looking for some suggestions that won't give hime to many opportunities to penalize my character at every turn. (And yes...he will try to penalize my character at evey turn because of alignment.)

1) Play in your game if you continue this farce...

Still want #2?

Seriously, "never" is too restrictive. There is almost ALWAYS an exception.

Duke Malagigi
2008-01-16, 03:10 AM
Do not follow the example of either Walter Kovacs or Adrian Veidt. Just don't.

Duke Malagigi
2008-01-16, 03:56 AM
If you've read any Arthurian mythos, you may have heard of the knight whose name escapes me who is told by a maiden "Sleep with me, knight, or I shall die at dawn." He refuses, for it would be a sin, and he cannot sin to do good. That's LG.

That's Galahad. Roland, of the Legends of Charlemagne, would take a different route. "Well, I've already been to bed with exactly a dozen women and God hasn't punished me yet, so I guess He won't start now. It was all concensual except on two occasions. Scratch that, I wasn't drugged that time. Well, one occaison with the sorceress Angelica." shudders "That put a whole new shine on the term mind rape. I'm still trying to forget that painful little incident." This guy was one of the inspirations for the paladin class.

Severus
2008-01-16, 03:04 PM
Thanks, I thought it was Galahad, but couldn't find the reference.

I thought it was a good mindset to develop for a Lawful Good character.

Duke Malagigi
2008-01-16, 03:21 PM
Thanks, I thought it was Galahad, but couldn't find the reference.

I thought it was a good mindset to develop for a Lawful Good character.

Okay, but I still prefer Roland. Though I am worried that I made him sound to much like Captain Jack Harkness.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-16, 04:14 PM
It is a good idea, Arthurian legend and all. Lots of good ideas for what I'm doing. Thanks guys!

Narmoth
2008-01-16, 05:38 PM
I would still insist that all the other players of other aligments should have to provide such a list to.

I would suggest:
Follow rules based on your own recognisation of them as being just rather for the convinience
Suppourt (and follow) any just (defined as lawfull good) rule and actively oppose any unjust (particulary LE and bureocratic LN) rule