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Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 11:37 AM
Shivering touch damages the target's DEX score. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged)

Draining DEX to 0 results in paralysis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed).

Dragons are immune to paralysis. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType)

The trick doesn't work and never has worked. Sorry, hoard-stealers, time to go back to the drawing board. :smalltongue:

Tyger
2008-01-15, 11:40 AM
Actually, it says dragons are immune to "paralysis effects" this is not the case.

It also says that dragons are immune to magic sleep... does that mean they never sleep? :)

Not disputing th eultimate cheese of the spell, but having your body unable to move because you have 0 DEX is not the same as being hit with a paralysis effect. Just my two cents of course.

Stabby
2008-01-15, 11:45 AM
You might want to:

read the dragon immunities again
realize that its listed right after MAGICAL sleep, ie its magical paralysis
realize that dragons arn't immune to ability damage
recognize that in the paralysis description is says dex is effectivly zero, but since it IS zero its not immune
[Scrubbed]


But hey, thats just me. But I think you are just miss reading it.

*curses, ninja'd*

Person_Man
2008-01-15, 11:48 AM
You're misreading the ability score loss rules (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html):


While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.


Dex 0 means your Helpless, not Paralyzed.

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 12:00 PM
You might want to:

read the dragon immunities again
realize that its listed right after MAGICAL sleep, ie its magical paralysis
realize that dragons arn't immune to ability damage
recognize that in the paralysis description is says dex is effectivly zero, but since it IS zero its not immune
[Scrubbed]


But hey, thats just me. But I think you are just miss reading it.

*curses, ninja'd*
[Scrubbed] I don't know what post you were reading, but I somehow doubt it was mine. :smallconfused: In any case, just because dragons are immune to magical sleep doesn't mean that their paralysis immunity only applies to magic. Not that shivering touch isn't magic, but I digress. What the paralysis description says about making DEX effectively zero is irrelevant; the section on your DEX actually being zero says the target is paralyzed.
You're misreading the ability score loss rules (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html):



Dex 0 means your Helpless, not Paralyzed.
I suppose I'll have to quote the contents of the link I provided, since you evidently won't go read it there.
Ability Damaged

The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.
Sorry, you lose.

MCerberus
2008-01-15, 12:09 PM
Dex 0 means the creature cannot effectively move due to no muscle coordination. It seems like the way it's described is similar to poisoning caused by the Tetanus virus (IE - lockjaw). Non-conscious muscles (heart, digestion, lungs to a certain amount) still work.

Now, magical paralysis freezes muscles in thier place. They aren't contracting on their own or anything. They're just locked in place.

While they are similar, they are still different.

Talya
2008-01-15, 12:13 PM
From your own source:


Immunities (Ex)
All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. Each variety of dragon has immunity to one or two additional forms of attack no matter what its age, as given in its description.

Paralysis from ability score loss is not an "effect." It's a state of being. Dragons are still utterly helpless if their dexterity reaches zero...an object without dexterity cannot move.

Chrismith
2008-01-15, 12:14 PM
So by this logic, if I have a magic item that protects me from death effects, I won't die even if my hit points are reduced below -10? Rock on!

Telonius
2008-01-15, 12:18 PM
Interesting quirk there. The description under Ability Scores says a 0 STR is helpless, and a 0 DEX is paralyzed. The description of Paralyzed says that your scores for both STR and DEX are effectively zero. So you are correct on that count.

However, the Dragon entry doesn't say that Dragons are immune to paralysis. It says they're immune to paralysis effects. There's a big difference there. For a counter-example, consider the spell "Death Ward." It protects against death effects. That doesn't mean that a character under the spell can't die; it merely prevents magic that specifically cause that status. A Fireball could still kill the subject. In the same way, a spell could reduce a Dex score to cause the "paralyzed" condition on a Dragon. But a Ghoul couldn't use his Paralysis effect on the Dragon.

Nor do any of these effects grant the user immunity to Ninjas.

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 12:19 PM
So by this logic, if I have a magic item that protects me from death effects, I won't die even if my hit points are reduced below -10? Rock on!
*Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 12:32 PM
*Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.

Hit point loss past a certain threshold causes death without being a death effect. Therefore, ability score damage can cause paralysis without being a paralysis effect. If you'll let slide wording that "a character reduced below -10 HP is dead", why not "a character with DEX drained to 0 is paralyzed"?

Frosty
2008-01-15, 12:35 PM
Who cares. If the OP wants to run it this way ih his games he can. The rest of us will keep ST as is, and run our dragons intelligently to expect that kinda spell.

Chrismith
2008-01-15, 12:35 PM
*Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.

Really? They don't look that different to me. HP below ten = death; Dex below 1 = paralysis. I agree that death and paralysis effects are different, but you only seem to be able to make that distinction for death, not paralysis.

BadJuJu
2008-01-15, 12:36 PM
*Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.

So, a ring of Freedom of Movement will negate all strength and dex damage because it prevents impedments to movement? Not so. Paralysis effects are negated, paralysis from a 0 ability score wont. Otherwise death ward protects against a con of 0, because its a death effect. Out of all the rules you can find holes in, pick a slightly more winnable battle.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 12:37 PM
I suppose I'll have to quote the contents of the link I provided, since you evidently won't go read it there.

I think you should also read the quote the Cheese Head provided. :smallsmile:

So you were right it does say paralyzed, which seems to me a poor wording for our purposes, because if you have 0 DEX and can still move things are getting a bit strange.

Luckily we also have the other quote that says you cannot move at all. You stand motionless, rigid and most importantly; You are helpless, a condition Dragons are not immune to.


Sorry, you lose.

I think we should all agree that we are all winners....

the_tick_rules
2008-01-15, 12:40 PM
agreed, immobility due to a 0 dex score is dif from paralysis and would thus affect dragons. but dragons have high SR and have a good chance of defeating spell that way.

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 12:42 PM
Hit point loss past a certain threshold causes death without being a death effect. Therefore, ability score damage can cause paralysis without being a paralysis effect. If you'll let slide wording that "a character reduced below -10 HP is dead", why not "a character with DEX drained to 0 is paralyzed"?
Because immunity to death effects is quite clear: You are immune to death effects, which is explicitly an entirely different condition from hit point damage or Constitution loss. There's no such distinction drawn for paralysis. Besides, I'm being hard on this bit of wording because it's one of the biggest pieces of cheese in the game and as such deserves to have as stringent a reading put upon it as possible.

Indon
2008-01-15, 12:45 PM
So, a ring of Freedom of Movement will negate all strength and dex damage because it prevents impedments to movement?

I imagine it would only prevent dealing strength/dex damage when the stat is at 1.

Also, why doesn't a ring of Freedom of Movement remove armor check penalties? Armor check penalties are the effect on armor's restricting your movement.

Moogle0119
2008-01-15, 12:48 PM
Besides, I'm being hard on this bit of wording because it's one of the biggest pieces of cheese in the game and as such deserves to have as stringent a reading put upon it as possible.

Personal bias should not affect any player or DMs ability to interpret what the rules specifically say as per RAW. You are more than certainly welcome to administer your own rule 0 in your game, however it's fairly obvious that as per RAW dragons when reduced to 0 Dex are immobile because they helpless/paralyzed, not due to a paralysis effect. By your own "interpretation" of the rules, if a dragon were to have it's backbone splintered into a thousand pieces, removed from the body, and then disintergrated into nothingness then the dragon would still be able to move on its own without any magical intervention necessary.

sikyon
2008-01-15, 12:49 PM
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.

By English, the magic adjective applies to both the objects "effects" and "effects".

Therefore Dragons are only immune to magic sleep and magic paralysis.

It should be read this way: Immunity to magic [sleep effects and paralysis effects.]

Not this way: Immunity to magic sleep effects and [Immunity to] paralysis effects.

Duke of URL
2008-01-15, 12:49 PM
dragons have high SR and have a good chance of defeating spell that way.

If you're going dragon hunting, then SR isn't going to be a problem because you'll have prepared for that with spells/scrolls/wands of assay resistance (or similar), spell penetration feats, and maybe a high-CHA Marshal with a Determined Caster aura active.

A Great Wyrm Red Dragon only has an SR of 32 -- let's say our caster is CL 15th, plus Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration feats. Hit the dragon with assay resistance and you're rolling 1d20+19 vs. DC 22 on spell resistance checks, that's a 90% success rate.

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 12:50 PM
Really? They don't look that different to me. HP below ten = death; Dex below 1 = paralysis. I agree that death and paralysis effects are different, but you only seem to be able to make that distinction for death, not paralysis.
Because the distinction doesn't exist in the rules for paralysis. The rules make it painstakingly clear that not all things that cause death are death effects; no such effort is made for paralysis.

So, a ring of Freedom of Movement will negate all strength and dex damage because it prevents impedments to movement? Not so. Paralysis effects are negated, paralysis from a 0 ability score wont. Otherwise death ward protects against a con of 0, because its a death effect. Out of all the rules you can find holes in, pick a slightly more winnable battle.
CON 0 is not a death effect. At all. If it were, then raise dead would not work on a character killed in that way. In fact, it would not work at all. Since raise dead exists and does not work on characters slain by death effects, we can suppose that there are fairly common ways of killing characters that are not death effects, namely CON damage and hit point loss.

I think you should also read the quote the Cheese Head provided. :smallsmile:

So you were right it does say paralyzed, which seems to me a poor wording for our purposes, because if you have 0 DEX and can still move things are getting a bit strange.

Luckily we also have the other quote that says you cannot move at all. You stand motionless, rigid and most importantly; You are helpless, a condition Dragons are not immune to.
You're helpless when your DEX is 0 because you're paralyzed, and paralyzed characters are helpless. Conversely, if a dragon is exposed to paralysis but is immune to the same, the paralysis would not render him helpless.

Indon
2008-01-15, 12:51 PM
Therefore Dragons are only immune to magic sleep and magic paralysis.

So a poison or other [Ex] effect can paralyze a Dragon?

Also, if you're magically dropping someone's Dex to 0, that would appear to be a magically-induced paralysis, methinks.

sikyon
2008-01-15, 12:55 PM
So a poison or other [Ex] effect can paralyze a Dragon?

Also, if you're magically dropping someone's Dex to 0, that would appear to be a magically-induced paralysis, methinks.

Yes, [Ex] should be able to paralyze a dragon.

You are magically dropping their Dex to 0, but it is not a magical effect that Dex 0 means paralysis. You are 1 step removed, the same way conjuring acid is 1 step removed from spell resistance.

Telonius
2008-01-15, 12:55 PM
So, can a Dragon take Dex damage at all? Is it only the last point of Dex damage that is the Paralysis effect?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 01:01 PM
You're helpless when your DEX is 0 because you're paralyzed, and paralyzed characters are helpless.

That is not what it says though.

DEX 0 --> Paralyzed (--> Helpless)

AND

DEX 0 --> Helpless

It does not say that you are helpless because you are paralyzed. It says you are both Helpless and Paralyzed.


Conversely, if a dragon is exposed to paralysis but is immune to the same, the paralysis would not render him helpless.


That part should be obvious.

Chronos
2008-01-15, 01:03 PM
This has come up before. Unfortunately, the online SRD disagrees with the printed rules, here: The printed rules say nothing about paralysis in the description of dex damage. It's obviously similar in some ways to paralysis, since both prevent movement, but the official (printed) rules don't use the p-word there.

Indon
2008-01-15, 01:04 PM
Because the distinction doesn't exist in the rules for paralysis. The rules make it painstakingly clear that not all things that cause death are death effects; no such effort is made for paralysis.

Actually, from reviewing the Types and Subtypes (after finding it odd that Dragons would only be immune to magical effects of a certain type), it looks like a distinction is made.

Might I direct you to the entry right next to it alphabetically, the Elemental.


Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.

In fact, I don't see any other type that mentions paralysis effects - the Elemental, Plant, and other types appear to be immune to all forms of paralysis as you describe, but the Dragon's immunity is less comprehensive.

Edit: Also, level 1 Warforged get +20 HP?


Because its body is a mass of unliving matter, a construct is hard to destroy. It gains bonus hit points based on size, as shown on the table.

Yakk
2008-01-15, 01:05 PM
First, the immunity is clearly to paralysis effects.

Second, the SRD says:

Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

I see no mention of "Paralysis" in that quote, and is sufficient to make a dragon defeated, directly from the SRD.

There is decent solution to "touch spells make dragons gimp", it is in the Draconomicon -- a 2nd level spell that makes the dragon's natural armor AC work against any supernatural touch attacks. It isn't perfect, but it exists. (Personally, if I was worried about that kind of cheese, I'd grant it as a natural ability of all dragons...)

So now you need shivering touch with a high to-hit at least. :/ Still isn't ideal.

Are there spells that buffer a stat from ability damage?

Emperor Demonking
2008-01-15, 01:06 PM
This is why you need the core books.

Moogle0119
2008-01-15, 01:07 PM
Unless it says the dragon is immune to ability score damage/drain, it can suffer the adverse effects of having a 0 Dex score.

KoDT69
2008-01-15, 01:10 PM
Gloves of Dexterity +2. If the spell can only drop you to 0, then the dragon will always have at least a 2 DEX. The spell can't drain the magic item too! Cheap and easy fix. So he'll still be down a bunch of AC from DEX penalty, but not one-shotted with a 3rd level spell. Keep in mind that dragons are also inherant casters too, and could have spell turning, globe of invulnerability, contingencies, or whatever else. Dragons are not stupid.

Indon
2008-01-15, 01:14 PM
Gloves of Dexterity +2. If the spell can only drop you to 0, then the dragon will always have at least a 2 DEX. The spell can't drain the magic item too! Cheap and easy fix. So he'll still be down a bunch of AC from DEX penalty, but not one-shotted with a 3rd level spell. Keep in mind that dragons are also inherant casters too, and could have spell turning, globe of invulnerability, contingencies, or whatever else. Dragons are not stupid.

I, uh... wait. Does that work? I can't see why it wouldn't. So ditto with a simple Cat's Grace spell.

Edit: Even better: +1 manual. Can an inherent bonus be drained?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 01:17 PM
Gloves of Dexterity +2. If the spell can only drop you to 0, then the dragon will always have at least a 2 DEX.

No. magic items will not protect you. Your modified ability score can be drained to zero.

sikyon
2008-01-15, 01:19 PM
No. magic items will not protect you. Your modified ability score can be drained to zero.

No, your modified ability score cannot be drained to zero.

However:


While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

* Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
* Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
* Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
* Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
* Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
* Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.


You only need to lose all your natural points to suffer the consequences.

MCerberus
2008-01-15, 01:20 PM
Well the Dex score of 0 is a temporary score. The dragon's base dex remains the same. Cat's Grace and such will provide you with some defense against going to Dex 0 only because it's more you have to drain.

Now if it were Permanent drain, It would get silly.

Frosty
2008-01-15, 01:26 PM
So do a Targeted Dispel *and* a shivering touch.

Mando Knight
2008-01-15, 01:28 PM
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
By English, the magic adjective applies to both the objects "effects" and "effects".

Therefore Dragons are only immune to magic sleep and magic paralysis.

That's not what my copy of the SRD says... is that a quote from one of the Monster manuals or an errata update that's missing from both my copy and d20srd.org's copy?

If you look at the SRD, sleep is italicized while paralysis is not. "Paralysis" links to Special Abilities, whereas "sleep" links to the spell sleep.


All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects.

That's what the SRD says, so I'd say that {any effect that causes paralysis} and {the spell sleep (Or even a spell-like ability using said spell)} are covered by the Dragon's immunity. However, a DEX of 0 means that the thing can't move, so it's effectively paralyzed, but not by a paralysis effect; much like a person who is at -10 hp is effectively (and actually) dead, but not dead by a death effect.

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 01:30 PM
This is why you need the core books.
I have the core books. Unfortunately, they're at a friend's house; I have to keep them there while I'm stuck living back with my parents because Dad has no respect for my property and has been known to destroy them.

In any case, the text I quoted is in fact in the core rulebooks: The conditions summary in the DMG, to be specific.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 01:30 PM
No, your modified ability score cannot be drained to zero.

The rules does not distinguish between temporary and permanent scores.


You only need to lose all your natural points to suffer the consequences.


Again no. No distinction is made. A temporarily increased score is sufficient to stay above 0.

MCerberus
2008-01-15, 01:32 PM
DMG, page 289 says of the subject


Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless

No p- word.

Dex 0 != Paralysis

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 01:32 PM
No, your modified ability score cannot be drained to zero.

However:



You only need to lose all your natural points to suffer the consequences.
Ridiculous. If this were true then the increase in HP granted by a temporary Constitution boost would not matter, because you'd die when your full normal total hit -10, not your current total.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 01:35 PM
This is why you need the core books.

I have to agree, I may not have the PHB in front of me, but I can't recall an instance where they call 0 DEX paralysis.

Even so, Shivering touch is not a paralysis effect, magical or otherwise. just as poison that does CON damage isn't a death effect. The poison doesn't cause death in and of itself, therefore is not a death effect. It causes Con damage, and with all damage there is a chance of death. In the same way, shivering touch doesn't cause paralysis, it causes DEX damage, which leads to a helpless state. Not the same as a paralysis effect.

Poison that [B]caused[B] paralysis, however, would be a paralysis effect, and that the dragon would be immune to.

As a side note: Dragons do not have impressive SR at any level that would be appropriate for a party to tackle. The get to little, and too late.

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 01:37 PM
Because immunity to death effects is quite clear: You are immune to death effects, which is explicitly an entirely different condition from hit point damage or Constitution loss. There's no such distinction drawn for paralysis. Besides, I'm being hard on this bit of wording because it's one of the biggest pieces of cheese in the game and as such deserves to have as stringent a reading put upon it as possible.

I just don't see that as valid. There exist conditions: dead, and paralyzed. You can reach the "dead" condition by multiple means, among them ability drain/damage and "death effects". We see that ability drain/damage can render you paralyzed, and that there are spells which induce it. There is no reason to think that "paralysis effects" include ability loss any more than there is reason to think that "death effects" do. Furthermore, unless you're referring to a different rules section, I see "ability damage", "death attacks", and "paralysis" all listed separately here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm), and the entry for death attacks only covers the ways in which death is already different from other conditions (negative hit points, stabilization, resurrection magic etc.).

MCerberus
2008-01-15, 01:41 PM
Ridiculous. If this were true then the increase in HP granted by a temporary Constitution boost would not matter, because you'd die when your full normal total hit -10, not your current total.

You are correct in this. Precident (in this case barbarian rage) has it that for the duration of the temporary increase/decrease that IS your ability score. Barbarians can keel over and die when their rage ends due to the loss of rage Con.

This can lead to some... interesting situations in theory. Keep those boots on if you want to live!

In order for cat's grace to work in this situation someone has to cast it AFTER the dragon has been touched.

Voyager_I
2008-01-15, 01:41 PM
Paralysis =/= Paralysis Effects

Being protected from paralysis effects means being protected from the effects that cause paralysis, not paralysis itself. A Dragon would be protected from a Lich's Paralyzing Touch because its immunity blocks the effect from causing paralysis, not because it's immune to being paralyzed.

Having 0 Dex is not an effect, it's a state of being that happens to include paralysis (or the equivalent, depending on what you're reading). Things which have no Dexterity cannot move, and Dragons aren't immune to ability damage. The fact that some sources include the word "paralyzed" and some do not leads me to suggest that they simply included it for simplicity, but it's not a fundamental aspect of the argument.


Person Man, in fact, does not lose.

Severus
2008-01-15, 01:44 PM
*Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.

paralysis effects and dex loss are different things too, genius.

Lose enough hit points, you die. Not a death effect.

Lose enough dex, you're paralyzed. Not a paralysis effect.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-15, 01:44 PM
Ability Damaged

The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.


So, If I were reduced to 0 constitution from, say, poison, I wouldn't actually die if I had protection from death effects? If you claim protection from one thing effects all other things, then you have to start thinking along those lines, not just where it's convenient.

Personally, my interpretation is this: If you get a spell that paralyzes you cast upon you, you don't get paralyzed if you have protection. If a death-causing spell is cast while you have protection from death effects, it fizzles. If it comes from some other source, then it's still fair game.

Also, you can't tout one source over another just because you saw it first, it doesn't work like that.

But, you can play your game however you want. Not my business. Just tryin' to spread a little common sense about.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 01:45 PM
Gloves of Dexterity +2. If the spell can only drop you to 0, then the dragon will always have at least a 2 DEX. The spell can't drain the magic item too! Cheap and easy fix. So he'll still be down a bunch of AC from DEX penalty, but not one-shotted with a 3rd level spell. Keep in mind that dragons are also inherant casters too, and could have spell turning, globe of invulnerability, contingencies, or whatever else. Dragons are not stupid.

Wow.....No, no, and no some more. Items only grant you an enhancement bonus to you *** score. It's not some seperate effect that exists outside and independent of you stat score. That's why you can't get similar bonuses to stack. If you have gloves of dex +2 and a natural dex of 16, your dex IS 18.

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 01:48 PM
That's not what my copy of the SRD says... is that a quote from one of the Monster manuals or an errata update that's missing from both my copy and d20srd.org's copy?

If you look at the SRD, sleep is italicized while paralysis is not. "Paralysis" links to Special Abilities, whereas "sleep" links to the spell sleep.

Those links and such are added by the maintainer of d20srd.org (I'm assuming that's the reference you're using). They're not part of the original SRD, which is on the Wizards site in the form of RTFs. The one on Types and Subtypes merely says "magical sleep effects and paralysis effects", no italics, no links. The d20srd.org maintainer is making a helpful best guess in providing easy clarifying links and is not attempting to be authoritative.

Indon
2008-01-15, 01:48 PM
Ridiculous. If this were true then the increase in HP granted by a temporary Constitution boost would not matter, because you'd die when your full normal total hit -10, not your current total.

But similarly, temporary scores can be damaged. So I guess this means you can't safeguard yourself.


Paralysis =/= Paralysis Effects

Being protected from paralysis effects means being protected from the effects that cause paralysis, not paralysis itself. A Dragon would be protected from a Lich's Paralyzing Touch because its immunity blocks the effect from causing paralysis, not because it's immune to being paralyzed.

Having 0 Dex is not an effect, it's a state of being that happens to include paralysis (or the equivalent, depending on what you're reading). Things which have no Dexterity cannot move, and Dragons aren't immune to ability damage. The fact that some sources include the word "paralyzed" and some do not leads me to suggest that they simply included it for simplicity, but it's not a fundamental aspect of the argument.

Your argument appears to be correct precisely because some types are apparently immune to Paralysis unconditionally, while Dragons are immune to only Paralysis effects.

An elemental or plant or similarly paralysis-immune (as opposed to simply being immune to paralysis effects) creature, however, is unaffected when its' Dexterity becomes 0 (except for having a very low Dex).

sikyon
2008-01-15, 01:51 PM
The following are from d20srd:


While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

* Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
* Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
* Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
* Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
* Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
* Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.


What I interpret this is as is that the points themselves need to be drained. Your basic points, the ones you put in for character generation. But I see how you could see it another way, as I can't find a distinction made.

I concede this point.


That's not what my copy of the SRD says... is that a quote from one of the Monster manuals or an errata update that's missing from both my copy and d20srd.org's copy?

If you look at the SRD, sleep is italicized while paralysis is not. "Paralysis" links to Special Abilities, whereas "sleep" links to the spell sleep.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm

Look under dragon.


Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.

Somewhat different wording.

KoDT69
2008-01-15, 01:55 PM
OK but the fact remains you can't go below 0, so a companion could remove the gloves from them and put them back on to get that +2 back!

DLoFunk
2008-01-15, 01:59 PM
Just to stir things up here.

Of course this is not RAW at all but logically and realistically isn't the loss of Dex a Paralysis effect itself? If something causes you to lose half of your mobility could you not describe yourself as partially paralysed?

Now, I'm a stickler for the rules so I say the spell works and the Dragon is a Coup waiting to happen, but realistically if something is described as having Immunity to Paralysis Effects, I would call it immune to effects that deal Dex damage since that's really what Dex damage is.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 01:59 PM
An elemental or plant or similarly paralysis-immune (as opposed to simply being immune to paralysis effects) creature, however, is unaffected when its' Dexterity becomes 0 (except for having a very low Dex).

Except that it stands motionless, rigid and is helpless.
Otherwise unaffected, yes.

MCerberus
2008-01-15, 02:03 PM
An elemental or plant or similarly paralysis-immune (as opposed to simply being immune to paralysis effects) creature, however, is unaffected when its' Dexterity becomes 0 (except for having a very low Dex).

Once again, Dex 0 is not paralysis. It's similar but distinct if merely for the fact that it isn't stated as paralysis. Magical paralysis is described as you being essentially frozen in stasis until killed or the effect ends Your friends can't even move you.. Poison paralysis is alluded to as being different... but the only thing in the posion section about it is duration. Dex 0 is described as you being unable to move and rigid. More importantly it doesn't say that it is paralysis.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 02:04 PM
The following are from d20srd:

What I interpret this is as is that the points themselves need to be drained. Your basic points, the ones you put in for character generation. But I see how you could see it another way, as I can't find a distinction made.


There is none.
An ability score is an ability score and spells and effects modify your ability score if only temporary.

You won't find no mentioning of keeping to difefrent scores for such purposes.

webgem
2008-01-15, 02:12 PM
Okay, I have an alternate solution to this problem....even a hypothetically immune creature. Say we have a creature that has total immunity to paralysis....so we have the loss of voluntary movement righty from paralysis, so the dragon...er cough cough hypothetical creature.... that is immune to loss of voluntary movement. But dex 0 means a character (or creature...or dragon)
* Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. cannot move, but also stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. I could stand motionless and rigid right now on my own, in full controll (at least mostly) and I could make myself helpless in the same state. So on one hand (say im the creature that is immune to paralysis) if I go down to 0 dex, I do trump any source that says I can't voluntarily move, so I'm not paralyzed. But I do have to do any other effects of 0 dex, which includes standing motionless, rigid, and helpless. Now this violates what I think is the principle of the rule, but here is what happen if somebody reduced me (immune to paralysis) to 0 dex while I was asleep. Time would warp and I would be: A: standing B: rigid C: helpless D: Not paralyzed. This combines both rulings that have primarily been stated. Goofy, but still effective I believe.

*ninja'd


Lord, your post was much more concise than mine...high five !

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 02:16 PM
OK but the fact remains you can't go below 0, so a companion could remove the gloves from them and put them back on to get that +2 back!

This is a case of folowing the letter of the law while ignoring the intent. let us for a moment assume that what you are saying works. How long does that take??

Try having one of your friends take a pair of gloves off of you and put them back on without your help. Combat will be over before the task can be accomplished.

Voyager_I
2008-01-15, 02:20 PM
Except that it stands motionless, rigid and is helpless.
Otherwise unaffected, yes.

Sorry, Indon. I'm with him on this one. I believe you slightly misinterpreted what I was saying.

Dex 0 =/= Paralysis. However, it does equate to a condition which is mechanically equivalent (but still distinct from it, for all those sticklers).

MCerberus
2008-01-15, 02:21 PM
Aha- I think I've found the problem here. The DMG contradicts itself in the Condition Summary section.

Ability Score Loss - Dex 0 rigid, helpless, no P word

Condition Summary - 11 pages later

Ability Damaged - Dex 0 = paralyzed.


In this case, since it was a summary and not the description, I believe the longer entry takes presidence. That may have been the cause of all this confusion.

edit - in fact there's a "see:" confirming this.

spotmarkedx
2008-01-15, 02:22 PM
If anything, this thread has taught us that dragons should fill their 6th level spell slots (if any) with quickened cat's grace.

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 02:29 PM
If anything, this thread has taught us that dragons should fill their 6th level spell slots (if any) with quickened cat's grace.

Sadly, Cat's Grace is a +4. Maximized (as it needs to be, to make sure) Shivering Touch deals 18 damage. CG won't save you if cast first, and as it has a somatic component, can't be cast after.

Counterspin
2008-01-15, 02:33 PM
Given that Shivering Touch, even if it worked the way Renegade Paladin mistakenly thinks it does, is still hideously broken, why are we having this discussion? You shouldn't use shivering touch, you shouldn't allow it, the end.

marjan
2008-01-15, 02:33 PM
... and as it has a somatic component, can't be cast after.

Still Spell + Eschew Materials.

spotmarkedx
2008-01-15, 02:36 PM
Actually I flubbed anyway, since sorcerers (which dragons cast as) can't take quicken anyway. (For some reason I thought quicken keeps you from needing to use somatic gestures).

Amend my statement to "Dragons should fill their 3rd level slots with Stilled Cat's Grace", unless you would say someone with dex 0 has no motor control, in which case it would be "Dragons should fill their 4th level slots with Stilled, Silent Cat's Grace" :smallbiggrin:

My intention has always been that the dragon should cast it after being hit with the shivering touch.

edit: Ninja'd, of course :smalltongue:

webgem
2008-01-15, 02:37 PM
that works.....hey guys I have this great plan, we're fighting a dragon right, I only need to prepare this one spell, and we're golden.....party....sweet!.......casts spell, dragon freezes...or whatever....everyone cheers and begins to hack away....6 seconds later the dragon starts to move......party....did you memorize the spell twice?....uh oh.....

Rigon
2008-01-15, 02:44 PM
dexterity is your ability to control your own moves (as a sort of combination between senses, neurons, reactions, reflexes, hand-to-eye coordination and such... this is an overall QUALITY of your sense-to-control systems).
paralysis is negative status flag which blocks you from moving (like your muscles are unable to fulfill the neural commands or the nerves themselves don't transfer the commands... this is the "blocked status" of your move-and-act systems)

paralysis means that you could control your moves but you can't move.
zero-dex means that you can move but your movements are not controlled (like you want to step forward and you simply fall as you can't balance, or you try to hit someone and you miss because you can't sense "depth"). have you ever been so drunk that you couldn't mess the depth of space and simply failed to grab items (ie.: another bottle'o'booze)? that is called zero or close-to-zero dex.

dragon with zero dex equals either to a creature unable to move/act or to a creature moving in a slow and aimless pattern (in which case the DM allows an attack once a turn in case of a natural 20). either way: no physical threat is present.

dragons which are unable to move... might kill you anyway. i don't remember where but i read about a dragon which was stuck in a cave... and was using still spells. i think that counters zero dex (of course dex fail applies for spells with attack rolls).

EDIT: and how about a thought activated amulet of restoration?

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 02:48 PM
Still Spell + Eschew Materials.

Sure, but that's not a Quickened Cat's Grace. Interestingly I can't see any reference on whether paralysis or Dex 0 render you unable to speak, either.

Sornjss Lichdom
2008-01-15, 02:53 PM
*Sigh* No, because a death effect and hit point loss are two different things. Hit point loss is not a death effect. However, paralysis is paralysis.

{Scrubbed}

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 03:00 PM
Aha- I think I've found the problem here. The DMG contradicts itself in the Condition Summary section.

Ability Score Loss - Dex 0 rigid, helpless, no P word

Condition Summary - 11 pages later

Ability Damaged - Dex 0 = paralyzed.


In this case, since it was a summary and not the description, I believe the longer entry takes presidence. That may have been the cause of all this confusion.

edit - in fact there's a "see:" confirming this.
The conditions summary defines its subjects in strict game terms; it is the least likely entry to be misunderstood due to wording.

The entry on ability score loss, for whatever reason, does not use strict game terms. That is, unless you can tell me what the "motionless" and "rigid" status effects are. For that matter, to the game what difference is there between a coma-like stupor and a deep sleep filled with nightmares? It's flavor; the game definition takes precedence.

{Scrubbed}
[Scrubbed]

spotmarkedx
2008-01-15, 03:01 PM
Sure, but that's not a Quickened Cat's Grace. Interestingly I can't see any reference on whether paralysis or Dex 0 render you unable to speak, either.

I have forseen your arguement and already answered it :smallwink:



Amend my statement to "Dragons should fill their 3rd level slots with Stilled Cat's Grace", unless you would say someone with dex 0 has no motor control, in which case it would be "Dragons should fill their 4th level slots with Stilled, Silent Cat's Grace" :smallbiggrin:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 03:06 PM
The conditions summary defines its subjects in strict game terms; it is the least likely entry to be misunderstood due to wording.

The entry on ability score loss, for whatever reason, does not use strict game terms. That is, unless you can tell me what the "motionless" and "rigid" status effects are. For that matter, to the game what difference is there between a coma-like stupor and a deep sleep filled with nightmares? It's flavor; the game definition takes precedence.


Do you have any doubt about what it means?

Is helpless not very well-defined in game terms?

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 03:10 PM
Do you have any doubt about what it means?

Is helpless not very well-defined in game terms?

Darn it! I was just about to say that too!

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 03:12 PM
Do you have any doubt about what it means?

Is helpless not very well-defined in game terms?
Yes, it is, but given the context I have my doubts as to whether "helpless" was meant as the game term or just another adjective. Given that it is elsewhere defined as paralyzed and "motionless, rigid, and helpless" are all direct symptoms of being paralyzed, I see no reason to doubt the condition summary.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 03:16 PM
Even so, it still all boils down to the fact that ability damage doesn't lead to any effect. A ghouls touch is a paralysis effect, hold person is a paralysis effect. Dex damage is just Dex damage.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 03:17 PM
Even so, it still all boils down to the fact that ability damage doesn't lead to any effect. A ghouls touch is a paralysis effect, hold person is a paralysis effect. Dex damage is just Dex damage.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2008-01-15, 03:17 PM
The condition summary is not the primary entry on ability score damage and loss; I believe this can be agreed.

In cases where one or more sources within the text contradict one another, the primary entry on the subject is considered to have precedence, per official ruling, usually abbreviated as 'text trumps table'; as far as I recall, this is correct, yes?

Therefore, though the condition summary may be more precisely worded, the section of the text dealing specifically and primarily with ability score damage and loss should be considered to be definitive.
That entry does not specifically state that Dex 0 is equivalent to paralysis in game terms; it also mentions the Helpless condition, which is specifically defined and to which dragons are not immune, as has been mentioned.

Indon
2008-01-15, 03:29 PM
Aha- I think I've found the problem here. The DMG contradicts itself in the Condition Summary section.

Ability Score Loss - Dex 0 rigid, helpless, no P word

Condition Summary - 11 pages later

Ability Damaged - Dex 0 = paralyzed.


In this case, since it was a summary and not the description, I believe the longer entry takes presidence. That may have been the cause of all this confusion.

edit - in fact there's a "see:" confirming this.

The Monster Manual for 3.5, if I recall, also notes that a creature with a dex of 0 becomes paralyzed (along with detailing nonscores).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 03:31 PM
Yes, it is, but given the context I have my doubts as to whether "helpless" was meant as the game term or just another adjective. Given that it is elsewhere defined as paralyzed and "motionless, rigid, and helpless" are all direct symptoms of being paralyzed, I see no reason to doubt the condition summary.

Well the condition summary is a bit compressed, so it seems like a reasonable explanation that they thought it was unproblematic to call something rigid and motionless for paralyzed, since it let to being helpless, which IMHO is what they intended anyone with a score of 0 to be. (Except for CON 0)

In any case the two entries complement each other nicely and there is no direct conflict. Dex 0 results in the creature being both paralyzed and helpless.

Tyger
2008-01-15, 03:37 PM
Yes, even if one accepts that the dragon is immune to paralysis effects and that DEX 0 is a paralysis effect (which I contested in the first response), dragons are not immune to being helpless. So even if your hypothetical immune dragon is not paralyzed, he is still helpless.

Why bother splitting the hairs there?

Keld Denar
2008-01-15, 03:41 PM
Also of note, with the exception of CON, it is important to keep track of total ability scores. Only the total ability score is relevant. You could be under the influence of Bull Str +4, Rage +4, Frenzy +10, damage from shadows -12, and poison -6, and with a base of 16, you would have str of 16. It is also possible to have a negative score (except CON). It is imporant to keep track of this with respect to healing, whether natural or magical. Lesser Restoration recovers 1d4 ability damage. If a 6 str character took 20 points of str damage from poison, he's gonna need more than one Lesser Restoration to get him back on his feat. Likewise, he's not gonna get up and start wandering around after a day, simply because he healed a point of str damage.

So, even if the dragon had a widget of +2 dex, and a base of 10, his total dex would be 12. If he took 18 points of dex damage (max ST), he would be at -6, and require at least 7 points of ability healing or 7 days of rest or the application of 7 points of temp dex to regain motor function.

I just reread ST, and it has a duration that isn't instantaneous. That means it can be dispelled, via still+silent+escewed dispel magic, or by dispel magic as a spell-like ability. It doesn't require normal ability damage regeneration rules, simply wait until the duration wears off, and you are as good as new (provided you didn't get CDGed in the mean time).

Zenos
2008-01-15, 03:42 PM
Yes, it is, but given the context I have my doubts as to whether "helpless" was meant as the game term or just another adjective. Given that it is elsewhere defined as paralyzed and "motionless, rigid, and helpless" are all direct symptoms of being paralyzed, I see no reason to doubt the condition summary.

So you're saying that just because someone has the symptoms of a disease means that they have that disease? I am being metaphorical but my point stands.

marjan
2008-01-15, 03:44 PM
I just reread ST, and it has a duration that isn't instantaneous. That means it can be dispelled, via still+silent+escewed dispel magic, or by dispel magic as a spell-like ability. It doesn't require normal ability damage regeneration rules, simply wait until the duration wears off, and you are as good as new (provided you didn't get CDGed in the mean time).

The durations means that for 1 round/lvl you can make touch attacks for DEX dmg, not that DEX dmg lasts that long.

Sornjss Lichdom
2008-01-15, 03:44 PM
{Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}

vrellum
2008-01-15, 03:46 PM
IMO the sensible thing to do is to rule that dragons are effectively immune to shivering touch by removing shivering from the game.

However, by RAW shivering touch allows you to kill just about anything, including dragons and other things not immune to ability score damage.

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 03:46 PM
Yes, even if one accepts that the dragon is immune to paralysis effects and that DEX 0 is a paralysis effect (which I contested in the first response), dragons are not immune to being helpless. So even if your hypothetical immune dragon is not paralyzed, he is still helpless.
Not if the helplessness is the direct result of the paralysis. Helpless and paralyzed as separate conditions is completely redundant.

Why bother splitting the hairs there?
Because if I can save even one game from the cheese of using dragons as ATMs, then it will be worth all the aggravation of this thread.

marjan
2008-01-15, 03:46 PM
Also of note, with the exception of CON, it is important to keep track of total ability scores. Only the total ability score is relevant. You could be under the influence of Bull Str +4, Rage +4, Frenzy +10, damage from shadows -12, and poison -6, and with a base of 16, you would have str of 16. It is also possible to have a negative score (except CON). It is imporant to keep track of this with respect to healing, whether natural or magical. Lesser Restoration recovers 1d4 ability damage. If a 6 str character took 20 points of str damage from poison, he's gonna need more than one Lesser Restoration to get him back on his feat. Likewise, he's not gonna get up and start wandering around after a day, simply because he healed a point of str damage.

So, even if the dragon had a widget of +2 dex, and a base of 10, his total dex would be 12. If he took 18 points of dex damage (max ST), he would be at -6, and require at least 7 points of ability healing or 7 days of rest or the application of 7 points of temp dex to regain motor function.


You're wrong.


Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 03:48 PM
The durations means that for 1 round/lvl you can make touch attacks for DEX dmg, not that DEX dmg lasts that long.

Yup yup. Damage is forever, until you rest, or get a restoration. Penalties, like Ray of Enfeeblement, have a duration.

Unless by duration, 1 day while you lie helpless until you get a 1 DEX score back.

Rigon
2008-01-15, 03:50 PM
i have another possible solution for this.

a dragon which has a dexterity of 0 because of the shivering touch spell isn't paralyzed... but it is forced to do the para-para dance.

spotmarkedx
2008-01-15, 03:50 PM
Also of note, with the exception of CON, it is important to keep track of total ability scores. ... It is also possible to have a negative score (except CON). It is imporant to keep track of this with respect to healing, whether natural or magical.

Care to provide a source for this?

I don't think you are right. Here is mine:

Ability Score Loss
Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain).

[snip]

Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 03:57 PM
Not if the helplessness is the direct result of the paralysis. Helpless and paralyzed as separate conditions is completely redundant.

Because if I can save even one game from the cheese of using dragons as ATMs, then it will be worth all the aggravation of this thread.

Why is shivering touch an issue. Every dragon that can cast spells should use their first 2nd level spell for Scintilating Scales. Without a True Strike, the caster is never going to touch them anyway. And don't underestimate the feat Practiced Spellcaster when talking about dragons. Give every dragon one level of sorcerer so that any time they gain spellcasting because of HD, they get that next level of spells. Heck, back off the HD and give them and ass-load of sorcerer levels. Nothing scares a party like walking into an encounter that they hadn't planned on.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 03:59 PM
i have another possible solution for this.

a dragon which has a dexterity of 0 because of the shivering touch spell isn't paralyzed... but it is forced to do the para-para dance.

You should be flogged.

Possible whipped.

Maybe beaten.

Perhaps all three.

Thinker
2008-01-15, 04:01 PM
Not if the helplessness is the direct result of the paralysis. Helpless and paralyzed as separate conditions is completely redundant.
Almost like the designers intended to make sure things immune to paralysis were still affected by a dex of 0? :smallamused:


Because if I can save even one game from the cheese of using dragons as ATMs, then it will be worth all the aggravation of this thread.
In other words if you can convince other people to still use a broken spell, but not harm your precious dragons it will be worth it? Trying to convince people that something is RAW when it clearly isn't could be far more damaging than simply recommending they not do something to begin with.

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 04:04 PM
Why is shivering touch an issue. Every dragon that can cast spells should use their first 2nd level spell for Scintilating Scales. Without a True Strike, the caster is never going to touch them anyway. And don't underestimate the feat Practiced Spellcaster when talking about dragons. Give every dragon one level of sorcerer so that any time they gain spellcasting because of HD, they get that next level of spells. Heck, back off the HD and give them and ass-load of sorcerer levels. Nothing scares a party like walking into an encounter that they hadn't planned on.

Firstly, Shivering Touch and Scintillating Scales are from different books, so it may be that one is in play but not the other.

Secondly, no one has said that dragons with class levels or that are built to defeat this tactic are helpless before it. It's a cheesy tactic to use on MM dragons.

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 04:07 PM
Almost like the designers intended to make sure things immune to paralysis were still affected by a dex of 0? :smallamused:
Were that true, it would also be noted in the Monster Manual and condition summary.

In other words if you can convince other people to still use a broken spell, but not harm your precious dragons it will be worth it? Trying to convince people that something is RAW when it clearly isn't could be far more damaging than simply recommending they not do something to begin with.
If people were going to ban shivering touch they'd have done it by now. I see the spell trumpeted far and wide as the ultimate one-round dragonkiller on this board. For those who play RAW, shivering touch is in no matter what I say on the subject; the only recourse is to point out that, no, by RAW it doesn't work.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 04:11 PM
... the only recourse is to point out that, no, by RAW it doesn't work.

You have shown redundancy, but you have not shown that you are not helpless if you have a DEX of 0.

You claim that they only meant to write paralyzed, which is highly unlikely considering the other descriptions and the very strange situation it would be if you could move with a DEX of 0, but even if that is so that is only a RAI argument, not RAW.

Thinker
2008-01-15, 04:12 PM
Were that true, it would also be noted in the Monster Manual and condition summary.Several rules are not repeated every time they are referenced or even summarized.


If people were going to ban shivering touch they'd have done it by now. I see the spell trumpeted far and wide as the ultimate one-round dragonkiller on this board. For those who play RAW, shivering touch is in no matter what I say on the subject; the only recourse is to point out that, no, by RAW it doesn't work.
People on forums generally talk about rule-theory rather than talking about what is actually used. Also, a group of mature players might not need to explicitly ban such things, but may have an unspoken contract about spells that are obviously broken. For those who play RAW, shivering touch works as written and one-shots your dragons. There's no nice way to say that you're wrong.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 04:12 PM
Were that true, it would also be noted in the Monster Manual and condition summary.

If people were going to ban shivering touch they'd have done it by now. I see the spell trumpeted far and wide as the ultimate one-round dragonkiller on this board. For those who play RAW, shivering touch is in no matter what I say on the subject; the only recourse is to point out that, no, by RAW it doesn't work.

Shivering Touch is from the same book that introduced a metamagic feat that allowed cold damage to completely bypass cold resistance, oh yeah, and damage creatures with cold immunity. Just dont use Frostburn, lord knows we don't.

Voyager_I
2008-01-15, 04:25 PM
{Scrubbed}

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 04:32 PM
If people were going to ban shivering touch they'd have done it by now. I see the spell trumpeted far and wide as the ultimate one-round dragonkiller on this board. For those who play RAW, shivering touch is in no matter what I say on the subject; the only recourse is to point out that, no, by RAW it doesn't work.

I find that statement kind of bizarre. People do ban shivering touch, all the time. Not all people, sure, and I'm sure most don't even have Frostburn in play at all. Nonetheless, it's there, a part of RAW, so in a RAW discussion, it's a valid though cheesy tactic. I don't understand this at all: you are actually so offended by the existence of this cheese that you are determined it must not really work, even though if the cheese concerns you it's the easiest thing in the world so simply ban it?

It doesn't sound at all like you're motivated by concern for the well-being of dragons in games the world over. It sounds like you've lost an argument about Dragons Vs Wizards, and are peeved.

Chronos
2008-01-15, 04:34 PM
Because if I can save even one game from the cheese of using dragons as ATMs, then it will be worth all the aggravation of this thread.An admirable goal, but this is not the way to do it. By the RAW, Shivering Touch does in fact render dragons (other than silver or white) helpless. The proper response is to either ban Shivering Touch, houserule it in such a way that it's less cheesy (and acknowledge that what you're doing is in fact a houserule), or give your dragons defenses against it.

And dragons do, in fact, have defenses available against it. Sure, Scintillating Scales will work, but you don't even need to step outside Core. Since Shivering Touch works by dealing cold damage (damage to an ability score, but damage nonetheless), a simple Resist Energy spell would do the trick. Any dragon which can cast as a fourth-level sorcerer can soak enough damage this way to stay on its feet after one Shivering Touch, and any dragon which casts as seventh level, or has Practiced Spellcaster, could completely ignore a maximized Shivering Touch.

Keld Denar
2008-01-15, 04:44 PM
{Scrubbed}

I believe you have crafted this post from the finest win mined from the win-rich mines of Wintopia. You have infused it with the power of the 4 Elemental Wins to heighten its power to surpass all other threads. It has been tempered in the icey win-laden spring waters of the Uber River. You sir, have won.

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 04:51 PM
An admirable goal, but this is not the way to do it. By the RAW, Shivering Touch does in fact render dragons (other than silver or white) helpless. The proper response is to either ban Shivering Touch, houserule it in such a way that it's less cheesy (and acknowledge that what you're doing is in fact a houserule), or give your dragons defenses against it.

And dragons do, in fact, have defenses available against it. Sure, Scintillating Scales will work, but you don't even need to step outside Core. Since Shivering Touch works by dealing cold damage (damage to an ability score, but damage nonetheless), a simple Resist Energy spell would do the trick. Any dragon which can cast as a fourth-level sorcerer can soak enough damage this way to stay on its feet after one Shivering Touch, and any dragon which casts as seventh level, or has Practiced Spellcaster, could completely ignore a maximized Shivering Touch.

What he said.

Draz74
2008-01-15, 04:53 PM
So by this logic, if I have a magic item that protects me from death effects, I won't die even if my hit points are reduced below -10? Rock on!

I vote the thread was won right here.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 04:57 PM
Since Shivering Touch works by dealing cold damage (damage to an ability score, but damage nonetheless), a simple Resist Energy spell would do the trick. Any dragon which can cast as a fourth-level sorcerer can soak enough damage this way to stay on its feet after one Shivering Touch, and any dragon which casts as seventh level, or has Practiced Spellcaster, could completely ignore a maximized Shivering Touch.

I am afraid Shivering Touch deals ability damage, not cold damage.

The Cold subtype is the only protection (and immunity to ability damage of course).
Immunity to Cold is not even enough by a strict reading, which is rather poor wording.

Innis Cabal
2008-01-15, 05:03 PM
Windmills do not work that way!

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 05:07 PM
{Scrubbed}
Oh, hardy har har har.
I find that statement kind of bizarre. People do ban shivering touch, all the time. Not all people, sure, and I'm sure most don't even have Frostburn in play at all. Nonetheless, it's there, a part of RAW, so in a RAW discussion, it's a valid though cheesy tactic. I don't understand this at all: you are actually so offended by the existence of this cheese that you are determined it must not really work, even though if the cheese concerns you it's the easiest thing in the world so simply ban it?

It doesn't sound at all like you're motivated by concern for the well-being of dragons in games the world over. It sounds like you've lost an argument about Dragons Vs Wizards, and are peeved.
I will say this until it gets through your skull; dragons are immune to paralysis, so it doesn't work. Appealing to motive isn't going to get you anywhere on that score.

If the use of shivering touch in this manner were not widespread in actual gameplay, there would be little need to talk about it so much, and none at all to say "use shivering touch" in response to the question of how to defeat a powerful dragon. Therefore, the only conclusion can be that it is in fact widespread.

Incidentally, I don't usually give fallacious arguments the dignity of a response, but as it happens no, I have no particular stake in the "dragon vs. wizard" debates other than the truth. When/if I find other ways that common cheatery doesn't work within the rules I will make similar threads.

Serenity
2008-01-15, 05:14 PM
And we'll say it again: dragons are immune to paralysis effects, which is to say things like Hold Person or a ghoul's touch which directly cause the condition paralysis. Shivering Touch is not a paralysis effect. It drains Dexterity. When Dexterity is reduced to 0, the subject is paralyzed and helpless. This is no more a paralysis effect than knocking someone to -10 HP or draining them to 0 Constitution is a death effect. The RAW is not remotely on your side.

Collin152
2008-01-15, 05:15 PM
What the hell is a paralysis effect anyways? Show it to me in my glossary.

Daimbert
2008-01-15, 05:15 PM
Not if the helplessness is the direct result of the paralysis. Helpless and paralyzed as separate conditions is completely redundant.

Two problems here:

1) You have the description backwards; it is not the case that the helplessness is the direct result of the paralysis, but that because the dragon is helpless it is effectively paralyzed.

2) Those conditions are not redundant; someone in the midst of a body-wracking seizure is helpless, but surely not paralyzed [grin].

Dausuul
2008-01-15, 05:20 PM
Yes, it is, but given the context I have my doubts as to whether "helpless" was meant as the game term or just another adjective. Given that it is elsewhere defined as paralyzed and "motionless, rigid, and helpless" are all direct symptoms of being paralyzed, I see no reason to doubt the condition summary.

Helpless is helpless. The term has a strictly defined meaning in game. You can't simply assume that that meaning doesn't apply. (Hey, I get to invoke my own fallacy!)

Furthermore, it is a clearly established principle that text trumps summary. This is a conflict between text and summary, so text wins. The text says helpless with no mention of paralysis. Therefore, immunity to paralysis does not apply.

It hardly matters. Anyone reading this thread will already have grasped the principle that shivering touch is grotesque. If they aren't willing to ban it or apply in-game defenses against it, then they presumably want a setting where a 5th-level wizard can one-shot a great wyrm, and so be it.

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 05:21 PM
What the hell is a paralysis effect anyways? Show it to me in my glossary.
That's the problem; it's not there. Which means that the only thing for the immunity to refer to is, surprise, paralysis.

kamikasei
2008-01-15, 05:24 PM
I will say this until it gets through your skull; dragons are immune to paralysis, so it doesn't work.

"Gets through my skull"? I have clearly heard your argument, thanks. I have also countered it, as have many others. Dragons are immune to paralysis effects, and I reject the assertion that Dex damage is a paralysis effect, though its result may or may not be the "paralyzed" condition. Con damage unquestionably does result in the "dead" condition, yet is not a death effect, and I do not think you have made a convincing case that this is an exception.


Appealing to motive isn't going to get you anywhere on that score.
...
Incidentally, I don't usually give fallacious arguments the dignity of a response, but as it happens no, I have no particular stake in the "dragon vs. wizard" debates other than the truth. When/if I find other ways that common cheatery doesn't work within the rules I will make similar threads.

No fallacy; I'm not arguing whether you're correct there, I'm arguing that your stated goal here is misguided. I will take your word for it that you don't care if there is in fact a third-level Wizard spell which can shut down a dragon with one casting if maximized; but given your obstinacy in this thread and the way you describe your aim, I can honestly say that that's not at all what I would surmise without your word to contradict your actions.

I make no appeal to motive, I'm saying only that you come off as biased and unreasonable here and that your own description of your motive reinforces that. This is in no way intended to argue for or against your position which I feel is being separately and quite adequately done.


If the use of shivering touch in this manner were not widespread in actual gameplay, there would be little need to talk about it so much, and none at all to say "use shivering touch" in response to the question of how to defeat a powerful dragon. Therefore, the only conclusion can be that it is in fact widespread.

It's not discussed that much that I'm aware of. It's there in the RAW and by RAW is one of the best options for taking on a dragon. Therefore, if someone asks how to take on a dragon, it will be brought up. This does not in any way reflect on how widespread it is or isn't.

Chrismith
2008-01-15, 05:24 PM
That's the problem; it's not there. Which means that the only thing for the immunity to refer to is, surprise, paralysis.

Glossary of the Monster Manual, under "Dragon Type":


—Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.

Same book, same section, same page, under "Elemental Type":


—Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.

There's clearly a distinction made. Now, can anyone find what that distinction is? :smalltongue:

I would argue that the difference is similar to the difference between death effects and death. An "effect" is a spell or ability that causes death/paralysis, and death and paralysis are the end results themselves. Elementals are immune to actual paralysis, while dragons are only immune to paralysis effects, just as death ward makes one immune to death effects without making one immune to death itself.

spotmarkedx
2008-01-15, 05:25 PM
[snip]
So let me get this strait. Let me know if any of these points are misconstruing your opinion.
1> The summary in the PHB is shorter than the summary in the DMG, and contains a game-defined term (in this case "paralysis"), and therefore is more applicable to this situation.
2> Even the DMG summary has the same terms as the paralysis summary, so, while it does not specifically state "paralysis", it should be treated as one and the same thing.
3> The only reason something reduced to Dex 0 is "helpless" or unable to move is because of the fact that they are paralyzed.

Is this an accurate summary?

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 05:30 PM
So let me get this strait. Let me know if any of these points are misconstruing your opinion.
1> The summary in the PHB is shorter than the summary in the DMG, and contains a game-defined term (in this case "paralysis"), and therefore is more applicable to this situation.
2> Even the DMG summary has the same terms as the paralysis summary, so, while it does not specifically state "paralysis", it should be treated as one and the same thing.
3> The only reason something reduced to Dex 0 is "helpless" or unable to move is because of the fact that they are paralyzed.

Is this an accurate summary?
No. There are many things which can cause helplessness other than paralysis, such as being tied up, becoming unconscious, and so forth. The real trick is that none of the descriptions of what happens when an ability drops to 0 in the Ability Damage entry are phrased in game terms; there's no reason to assume that the Dexterity entry is somehow different because it includes the word "helpless" among other adjectives that don't have a game meaning. The Ability Damage entry in the Conditions summary states that STR 0 means helplessness, DEX 0 means paralysis, CON 0 means death, and any mental ability score at 0 means unconsciousness. Why did they, in that entry, distinguish between the consequences of 0 STR and 0 DEX if having 0 Dexterity simply makes you helpless?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 05:32 PM
I will say this until it gets through your skull; dragons are immune to paralysis, so it doesn't work.

Unless you can show that Dragons are immune to being Helpless it will not save them from DEX 0.

Reinboom
2008-01-15, 05:33 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

I can't find where 0 dexterity refers anywhere to paralysis on that page.
It doesn't say "due to paralysis".
Ever.
Anywhere.

I don't care if it's in the summary that it's also paralysis. Because even the summary doesn't say that they are helpless because they are paralyzed, it just adds on that they are paralyzed. (which could be a summary of what the special abilities section says). Why can't it be both helpless and paralyzed?

Remember, you are doing Rules As Written here, not Intended. I would like to see the exact word where it refers to that is helpless due to paralyzation. Exactly. No "oh but it means", no, that's intended. I want to see the exact words.

Nowhere do they refer to each other that I can find.

-edit-
also, despite wording.
I would like to see, for your current take on this, where the
"http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm" page is also not a part of the official rules. I don't see this either.

spotmarkedx
2008-01-15, 05:36 PM
No. There are many things which can cause helplessness other than paralysis, such as being tied up, becoming unconscious, and so forth. The real trick is that none of the descriptions of what happens when an ability drops to 0 in the Ability Damage entry are phrased in game terms; there's no reason to assume that the Dexterity entry is somehow different because it includes the word "helpless" among other adjectives that don't have a game meaning. The Ability Damage entry in the Conditions summary states that STR 0 means helplessness, DEX 0 means paralysis, CON 0 means death, and any mental ability score at 0 means unconsciousness. Why did they, in that entry, distinguish between the consequences of 0 STR and 0 DEX if having 0 Dexterity simply makes you helpless?I wasn't trying to imply that you were saying that helplessness was only caused by paralysis. It looks like you agree with parts #1 and #2 of my summary of your position, but let me try rewording #3.

3> In the longer (DMG) version of the glossary, it lists as one of the results of being reduced to Dex 0 as being "helpless". The only reason that this term is included is because they are paralyzed.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 05:38 PM
The real trick is that none of the descriptions of what happens when an ability drops to 0 in the Ability Damage entry are phrased in game terms; there's no reason to assume that the Dexterity entry is somehow different because it includes the word "helpless" among other adjectives that don't have a game meaning.

I think the RAW and RAI are fairly clear, even if a little fluff was included in some of the description (like how you are standing helpless with a DEX 0 and lying helpless with a STR 0).


ABILITY SCORE LOSS

...
*

Strength 0 ... helpless ... .
*

Dexterity 0 ... helpless.
*

Constitution 0 ... dead.
*

Intelligence 0 ... helpless.
*

Wisdom 0 ... helpless.
*

Charisma 0 ... helpless.

Renegade Paladin
2008-01-15, 05:39 PM
I wasn't trying to imply that you were saying that helplessness was only caused by paralysis. It looks like you agree with parts #1 and #2 of my summary of your position, but let me try rewording #3.

3> In the longer (DMG) version of the glossary, it lists as one of the results of being reduced to Dex 0 as being "helpless". The only reason that this term is included is because they are paralyzed.
Then yes, you have it close enough to work.

I won't be responding for some time after this post; I have a game of D&D to go to [Scrubbed]

Serenity
2008-01-15, 05:41 PM
Ah, thanks, because we recognize that the RAW allows a certain exploit, we're 'trying to break the system.' Even if we don't, y'know, use it...

Mando Knight
2008-01-15, 05:47 PM
Why did they, in that entry, distinguish between the consequences of 0 STR and 0 DEX if having 0 Dexterity simply makes you helpless?

For the same reason why they distinguish between the consequences of having 0 in a mental ability: to differentiate the cause of helplessness. For a DEX of 0, you are rigid and stiff, unable to move, like a stone statue or a wooden box. For STR 0, you are not rigid and stiff, but instead lack the muscle power to move your body, and will collapse onto the ground in a heap. One of them makes it so that your body is too stiff to move, the other makes your own body too heavy an encumbrance to move. In both cases you are as good as paralyzed, but not paralyzed in the same way as a paralysis effect.

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-15, 05:51 PM
Ach, guys...

...give the dragon some freedom of movement effect in campaigns where shivering touch is a common threat and that's it.
Apart from that, I think Renegade Paladin is right - the paralysis immunity and DEX-paralysis thing may not match 100%, but before believing a certain spell is a 100% win button, it always helps to put it to the toughest rules interpretation tests available.

Nicely done, Renegade Paladin!

- Giacomo

marjan
2008-01-15, 05:55 PM
Ach, guys...

...give the dragon some freedom of movement effect in campaigns where shivering touch is a common threat and that's it.
Apart from that, I think Renegade Paladin is right - the paralysis immunity and DEX-paralysis thing may not match 100%, but before believing a certain spell is a 100% win button, it always helps to put it to the toughest rules interpretation tests available.

Nicely done, Renegade Paladin!

- Giacomo

{Scrubbed}

Reinboom
2008-01-15, 05:55 PM
Ach, guys...

...give the dragon some freedom of movement effect in campaigns where shivering touch is a common threat and that's it.
Apart from that, I think Renegade Paladin is right - the paralysis immunity and DEX-paralysis thing may not match 100%, but before believing a certain spell is a 100% win button, it always helps to put it to the toughest rules interpretation tests available.

Nicely done, Renegade Paladin!

- Giacomo

Toughest? Don't you mean loosest?

Frosty
2008-01-15, 05:57 PM
If ST is a problem, then ban/modify it. Don't try to argue that by RAW, it doesn't work.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 05:58 PM
Ach, guys...

...give the dragon some freedom of movement effect in campaigns where shivering touch is a common threat and that's it.

No, that will not help, since having Dex 0 is not magic that impede movement any more than having -10 HP is.


magic that usually impedes movement


Apart from that, I think Renegade Paladin is right - the paralysis immunity and DEX-paralysis thing may not match 100%, but before believing a certain spell is a 100% win button, it always helps to put it to the toughest rules interpretation tests available.


Not when the interpretation is contradicted by RAW and wrong.

Voyager_I
2008-01-15, 06:11 PM
And, of course, it doesn't really address the issue of what happens when you have Dex 0 and have no control over your body, but aren't paralyzed.

Balkash
2008-01-15, 06:12 PM
I won't be responding for some time after this post; I have a game of D&D to go to... [Scrubbed]

First. I'd like to say that just because we recognise that there is an apparent flaw in the wording, does not mean we abuse it. Most of us are not munchkins. I'd thank you for not including all of us with them.

Second. I agree with Lord Silvanos.

Rutee
2008-01-15, 06:22 PM
Then yes, you have it close enough to work.

I won't be responding for some time after this post; I have a game of D&D to go to... one where the players aren't constantly trying to break the system.

[Scrubbed] People being cognizant of abusable RAW doesn't mean they ARE abusing it. Am I supposed to be looked down on if I make a wizard, despite holding a close interest in magic-casting classes? My suggestion would be, in your next post, to get off your high horse before someone with significantly less charity decides to call you much further on it; Remember, being so elevated in stature, compared to the competition, makes you a significantly more convenient target then the rest of us unwashed heathens.

On that note, I'm afraid I agree with Lord Silvanos, and other miscellaneous snark comments that one can apparently obtain Protection from Death to make themselves immune to death by -10 HP. Going by the rules as they are written, Dragons are indeed very susceptible to ST.

Thinker
2008-01-15, 06:31 PM
Ach, guys...

...give the dragon some freedom of movement effect in campaigns where shivering touch is a common threat and that's it.
Apart from that, I think Renegade Paladin is right - the paralysis immunity and DEX-paralysis thing may not match 100%, but before believing a certain spell is a 100% win button, it always helps to put it to the toughest rules interpretation tests available.

Nicely done, Renegade Paladin!

- Giacomo

{Scrubbed}

spotmarkedx
2008-01-15, 06:34 PM
Then yes, you have it close enough to work.

I won't be responding for some time after this post; I have a game of D&D to go to... one where the players aren't constantly trying to break the system.
Fair enough. I won't expect an immediate reply on my arguement then.
I'd have preferred you alter the three wherever they might be slightly off, but you can try to revise your positions later, I suppose. As to your toss-off comment regarding "constantly trying to break the system," I'd like to note that the only reason I'm arguing with you is that you are trying to state this is the RAW of the situation. I, as a DM, would never allow the spell. I, as a player, would never attempt to cast the spell. I, as a player or DM, have never seen anyone try to cast the spell.

Now, moving on.

1> The summary in the PHB is shorter than the summary in the DMG, and contains a game-defined term (in this case "paralysis"), and therefore is more applicable to this situation.
This has been discussed quite a bit so far. Personally, I find it frustrating that you are choosing to ignore the DMG version of the glossary, which has a much more refined version of events (as well as the fact that players just generally need to know what has happened to their character, so they get the shortened version of events). I'll let others debate you on this, though.


2> Even the DMG summary has the same terms as the paralysis summary, so, while it does not specifically state "paralysis", it should be treated as one and the same thing.
I have to disagree on this point as well. See, the DMG summary of ability score loss to dex 0 says "Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless." Paralysis says "He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs." The only point that is the same is the "helpless" portion of both. While the rest of the text on the two items are similar, they are not actually worded the same. Dex 0 does not imply or state that he is so rigid that he cannot even be moved by his allies, for example. If they were intended to be one and the same thing, they should have the same language, or the DMG version of Dex 0 should specifically state "paralysis" as well. They do not.

So thus, we are posed with two definitions, one from the PHB, and one from the DMG, which are different. Actually, I think I might need to rethink my above statement. If we are debating RAW only, we cannot take one definition over the other. Thus, I guess both apply (as I think has been stated before), making the dragon not paralyzed (due to his immunity), but unable to move, motionless, rigid and helpless. But an ally could indeed move his limbs, nor is the dragon "rooted to the spot"

Perhaps (and this is a very BIG perhaps, in my mind)... anyway, perhaps it could be argued that the game designers intended the Dex 0 definition in the DMG to match that of paralysis. But that would be arguing RAI, not RAW, and even then, since we are dealing with two definitions in the same book, in the same section, you'd likely see some better matching up of wording.


3> In the longer (DMG) version of the glossary, it lists as one of the results of being reduced to Dex 0 as being "helpless". The only reason that this term is included is because they are paralyzed.This was kind of a trap. See, the wording of "The only reason that this term is included..." is an argument based on the intent of the words, not the actual words themselves. You cannot deny that the DMG (as quoted by the SRD) has a definition of drain to Dex 0 that does not involve the words paralysis but does involve the word helpless.

Looking forward to see your replies.

Severus
2008-01-15, 06:43 PM
Then yes, you have it close enough to work.

I won't be responding for some time after this post; I have a game of D&D to go to... one where the players aren't constantly trying to break the system.

You're the one who brought it up. The fact that you through tortured and twisted logic came to a ridiculous conclusion for which you are being mocked doesn't mean the rest of us break the system.

[Scrubbed]. Try saying this.

"This spell is broken. It should not be used as is."

See how easy it is to say something reasonable?

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-15, 06:43 PM
I imagine it would only prevent dealing strength/dex damage when the stat is at 1.

Also, why doesn't a ring of Freedom of Movement remove armor check penalties? Armor check penalties are the effect on armor's restricting your movement.

And since all clothing and barding is at least to some degree movement restrictive, does that mean Dragons are immune to clothing? :smalleek:

Hyfigh
2008-01-15, 06:46 PM
I'm gonna chime in.

Renegade, you have yet to prove a few things.

1) That paralysis effects = being under the paralysis condition. So far, the only precedence is that death =/= death effects which goes strictly against what your saying.

2) That the helplessness caused by 0 Dex is caused by paralysis. There is nothing indicating this, other than you can be considered helpless when paralyzed. In fact, the exact opposite is happening in that both conditions are listed seperately.

3) The helpless/paralyzed argument aside, you have yet to prove that the condition of paralyzed granted by 0 Dex is a paralysis effect. For the argument on this, I refer you to 1.

Signmaker
2008-01-15, 06:48 PM
Ach, guys...

...give the dragon some freedom of movement effect in campaigns where shivering touch is a common threat and that's it.
Apart from that, I think Renegade Paladin is right - the paralysis immunity and DEX-paralysis thing may not match 100%, but before believing a certain spell is a 100% win button, it always helps to put it to the toughest rules interpretation tests available.

Nicely done, Renegade Paladin!

- Giacomo

"As militia men readied their guns to rain bullets on the close-minded traitor whose ideas were false and largely opinionated, a cheery figure tumbled in to the scene, shaking the traitor's hand, and soon after, the two were gunned down"

Seriously, the interpretation was hardly 'tough', merely false. He claimed that the 'helpless' status mentioned wasn't as per official effect, while his own 'paralysis' was, and not only did he ignore THOSE corrections, he fails to realize that half-elves, immune to sleep effects, can still succumb to SLEEP. Likewise, dragons who are immune to paralysis effects can still be PARALYZED.

When you've got not only rules-beholder Silvanos, but the near-entirety of the posters against you, odds are you're dead wrong.

marjan
2008-01-15, 06:49 PM
And since all clothing and barding is at least to some degree movement restrictive, does that mean Dragons are immune to clothing? :smalleek:

This gives me a nasty idea involving Freedom Of Movement. :smallamused:

NEO|Phyte
2008-01-15, 06:51 PM
When you've got not only rules-beholder Silvanos, but the near-entirety of the posters against you, odds are you're dead wrong.

Nonsense, he is CLEARLY doing something right (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0032.html).

13_CBS
2008-01-15, 06:58 PM
Someone ought to get an official Wizards ruling on this.

Collin152
2008-01-15, 07:02 PM
Glossary of the Monster Manual, under "Dragon Type":



Same book, same section, same page, under "Elemental Type":



There's clearly a distinction made. Now, can anyone find what that distinction is? :smalltongue:

I would argue that the difference is similar to the difference between death effects and death. An "effect" is a spell or ability that causes death/paralysis, and death and paralysis are the end results themselves. Elementals are immune to actual paralysis, while dragons are only immune to paralysis effects, just as death ward makes one immune to death effects without making one immune to death itself.

I see. That's a clear distinction?
Thing is, nowhere in the books does it say what a paraylsis effect is. I defy you to even find one other place other than dragons this "distinction" is made. Or even a mention of it. It simply doesn't exist.
Death effects, sure. There is a clear definition of a death effect. No such definition exists for a "paraylsis effect". Why? Because they don't exist. Now, are dragons immune to something that can't possibly affect them? Or are you just clinging to your instant-cheese tactics lke a gnome clings to a crossbow?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-15, 07:05 PM
Ach, guys...

...give the dragon some freedom of movement effect in campaigns where shivering touch is a common threat and that's it.
Apart from that, I think Renegade Paladin is right - the paralysis immunity and DEX-paralysis thing may not match 100%, but before believing a certain spell is a 100% win button, it always helps to put it to the toughest rules interpretation tests available.

Nicely done, Renegade Paladin!

- Giacomo

Giacomo - do you have some sort of Pavlovian reflex to comment on any sort of pro-wizard thread for the opposition? You'll be giving them Monk levels to take advantage of that prodigious wisdom score to give a high touch AC, and cleric cohorts to cast divine power on the ... OK, y'know what? We might have found, at last, a use for the Giacomonk. :smallwink:

BadJuJu
2008-01-15, 07:05 PM
Because the distinction doesn't exist in the rules for paralysis. The rules make it painstakingly clear that not all things that cause death are death effects; no such effort is made for paralysis.

CON 0 is not a death effect. At all. If it were, then raise dead would not work on a character killed in that way. In fact, it would not work at all. Since raise dead exists and does not work on characters slain by death effects, we can suppose that there are fairly common ways of killing characters that are not death effects, namely CON damage and hit point loss.
.

So, you are able to differentiate between a death effect and death, but refuse to see that paralysis and a paralysis effect are different? A paralysis effect is like hold person. Shivering touch causes another when it gives you a dex score of zero. So, in your game, I could negate the secondary effect of shivering touch with a ring of freemovement, because it prevents, on top of everything, paralysis. Doesnt that strike you a little wierd?

Collin152
2008-01-15, 07:08 PM
So, you are able to differentiate between a death effect and death, but refuse to see that paralysis and a paralysis effect are different? A paralysis effect is like hold person. Shivering touch causes another when it gives you a dex score of zero. So, in your game, I could negate the secondary effect of shivering touch with a ring of freemovement, because it prevents, on top of everything, paralysis. Doesnt that strike you a little wierd?

The rulebooks define Death effect. It's clear and easy to find.
Where does it define Paralysis effect? Where else does it say it?

BardicDuelist
2008-01-15, 07:15 PM
I just have to wonder why the OP thinks not allowing it to affect dragons (which is a house rule, but others are arguing this better) will make it less cheesy. You can still one shot nearly everything else.

That being said, if you don't like the spell, just house rule it away, or disallow Frostburn. You can even keep it your way, but realize that it is a house rule, just like saying that drowning doesn't heal you is a house rule.

I do hope you realize that in doing this, characters with freedom of movement, or other effects that make one immune to paralysis means that they won't suffer the worst consequences of Str or Dex loss.

I also hope you relize that your players will also probably see it our way, which means that you will have to have the same arguement in person.

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-15, 07:28 PM
I see. That's a clear distinction?
Thing is, nowhere in the books does it say what a paraylsis effect is. I defy you to even find one other place other than dragons this "distinction" is made. Or even a mention of it. It simply doesn't exist.
Death effects, sure. There is a clear definition of a death effect. No such definition exists for a "paraylsis effect". Why? Because they don't exist. Now, are dragons immune to something that can't possibly affect them? Or are you just clinging to your instant-cheese tactics lke a gnome clings to a crossbow?

K! I'll bite. Ghouls. Elves are immune to ghoul paralysis, but not to paralyzing effects cast by ghoul sorcerers, such as Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdPerson.htm). One is a special ability (Paralysis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#paralysis)), the other is a spell effect. Both of these are different from their result, the paralyzed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) condition.

Dragons are the opposite. They are immune to spells that cause paralysis (i.e. paralysis effects), but not to other things that cause paralysis, like being tied up with chains or encased in the earth by an avalanche of rocks or being so weak they can't move. They are not immune to the paralyzed condition.

Collin152
2008-01-15, 07:41 PM
K! I'll bite. Ghouls. Elves are immune to ghoul paralysis, but not to paralyzing effects cast by ghoul sorcerers, such as Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdPerson.htm). One is a special ability (Paralysis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#paralysis)), the other is a spell effect. Both of these are different from their result, the paralyzed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) condition.

Dragons are the opposite. They are immune to spells that cause paralysis (i.e. paralysis effects), but not to other things that cause paralysis, like being tied up with chains or encased in the earth by an avalanche of rocks or being so weak they can't move. They are not immune to the paralyzed condition.

I see no mention of paralysis effects anywhere in the ghoul entry.
NOt helping your case.

KoDT69
2008-01-15, 07:44 PM
I agree with the general consensus. DEX 0 leaves you helpless but is not a "paralysis effect" per se, but unfortunately has the same ultimate result. It's just as crappy as Ray of Enfeeblement dropping a Fighter's STR below 13 and all of the sudden all of his combat feats are unusable. It's utter crap, but it's RAW. I also agree that the dragon will suffer the Shivering Touch per RAW.

Houserules I would use in regards to ST: If you don't ban it, make it so that Protection From Energy blocks the DEX drain and allow a Saving Throw against all spells. Ability damage spells that don't allow a saving throw are also complete and utter bullcrap. All spells should allow a save. WotC does too much to overpower casters as it is.

Now I do commend Renegade Paladin on his fight for non-cheesity. Sure the general consensus interprets RAW differently, but at least he has the cojones to defend his viewpoint against overwhelming opposition. Here is my question in his viewpoint's defense:

How the heck is a 5th level Wizard soloing a CR20 Ancient Wrym Dragon with Shivering Touch? No saving throw, got it. Spell resistance is negligable due to horrid monster design, got it. But ST says it right in the name, it's a touch spell! What DM in their right mind allows a 5th level Wizard to just walk up and touch a dragon? From the dragon's own casting, frightful presence, breath weapon, and melee prowess, our crappy little caster is nothing more than an afternoon snack. Starting at Young Adult, depending on type, the dragon will be an equal level caster plus have some spell resistance, frightful presence, and superior HD/AB/Speed/whatever, and it only gets worse. Just an iritation point though, the hoarde is hidden in a lair in which this dragon is not in. Mr. Wizard has to go find it and hope that others are not aware that the Dragon is defeated long enough for them to pillage!

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-15, 07:44 PM
K! I'll bite. Ghouls. Elves are immune to ghoul paralysis, but not to paralyzing effects cast by ghoul sorcerers, such as Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdPerson.htm). One is a special ability (Paralysis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#paralysis)), the other is a spell effect. Both of these are different from their result, the paralyzed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) condition.

Dragons are the opposite. They are immune to spells that cause paralysis (i.e. paralysis effects), but not to other things that cause paralysis, like being tied up with chains or encased in the earth by an avalanche of rocks or being so weak they can't move. They are not immune to the paralyzed condition.

I guess we have to clear this one up.

A paralysis effect is any effect that cause paralysis, such as the Hold Person spell or the paralyzing touch of a Ghoul.

Dragons are immune to all effects that cause paralysis, whether they are from spells or special attacks.

Dragons are still not immune to being rendered helpless from having a DEX of 0, not even if they have a Freedom of Movement effect active.

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-15, 07:49 PM
I see no mention of paralysis effects anywhere in the ghoul entry.
NOt helping your case.

Well, umm.. gee.. could that be because I just told you it wasn't an effect, but a special ability? :smallamused:

Hold Person would be an effect, because spells are generally effects. If you aren't going to read my post, there isn't much sense in responding to it, is there? There's no need to be hostile to someone you aren't listening to.

Collin152
2008-01-15, 07:50 PM
I guess we have to clear this one up.

A paralysis effect is any effect that cause paralysis, such as the Hold Person spell or the paralyzing touch of a Ghoul.


Says who?
Since when?
Show me where it says that.
No conjecture allowed.



Well, umm.. gee.. could that be because I just told you it wasn't an effect, but a special ability? :smallamused:

Hold Person would be an effect, because spells are generally effects. If you aren't going to read my post, there isn't much sense in responding to it, is there? There's no need to be hostile to someone you aren't listening to.

So, I question the existence of Paralysis effects, and you show me an example of something that isn't, and not of one that says it is...? It doesn't even say it isn't one. It had nothing to do with this so called "Paralysis Effect" that Dragons bear immunity to.
I don't want small bits of man's fabled wit along with some snippet of the rules that hardley coincides, I want to see where people are drawing this definition from.

Rutee
2008-01-15, 07:54 PM
Here's something harder to argue against.

0s in every other stat either incapacitate or kill you. Why is Dex suddenly different due to draconic stature?


I don't want small bits of man's fabled wit... <snip>
Isn't that like shouting silence, given your posts so far in the thread?

Tequila Sunrise
2008-01-15, 07:55 PM
Aside from ST, does anyone one else find it rediculus that someone "completely rigid" is somehow able to remain standing, especially a two legged humanoid creature or a four legged creature involved in ducking, lunging, etc...?

kjones
2008-01-15, 08:04 PM
I just read all six pages of this thread in one go, and watched it go from silly, to ridiculous, to just plain sad.

To those who argue that a dragon is unaffected by a Dex of 0, I just have one question for you: what happens if a normal human, wearing a ring of freedom of movement, takes ability damage that drops him to 0 Dex?

If you're arguing that the dragon is unaffected, the human must be as well, in which case I ask: how does that work, exactly?

Ryuuk
2008-01-15, 08:05 PM
So, I question the existence of Paralysis effects, and you show me an example of something that isn't, and not of one that says it is...? It doesn't even say it isn't one. It had nothing to do with this so called "Paralysis Effect" that Dragons bear immunity to.
I don't want small bits of man's fabled wit along with some snippet of the rules that hardley coincides, I want to see where people are drawing this definition from.

I see a Paralysis effect as an effect that inflicts paralysis. I base this off the way the term "effect" is used with regards to spells in the srd. Every spell seems to have an effect, this being the direct result of casting the spell.

This may not be exactly what you were looking for, but it follows with terms like Death effect (an effect that results in death of the target).

Chronos
2008-01-15, 08:12 PM
I am afraid Shivering Touch deals ability damage, not cold damage.Reluctant as I am to argue a point of rules with Lord Silvanos, I would contend that ability damage and cold damage are not mutually exclusive. Saying that Shivering Touch deals ability damage, not cold damage, is like saying that Cone of Cold deals hit point damage, not cold damage. The hit point or ability score distinction refers to what effect the damage has, but cold refers to how it achieves that effect. Ability score damage can be inflicted, among other means, via negative energy (as with Chill Touch), via poison, or via cold (as with Shivering Touch). And I can find nothing in the description of Resist Energy nor in the Energy Resistance special ability which specifies hit point damage, as opposed to ability damage.

On a completely different note, it's the people who are actually advocating allowing Shivering Touch to be used at all who are "clinging to [their] instant-cheese tactics lke a gnome clings to a crossbow", as Collin152 puts it. Most of the folks in this thread are advocating not allowing the spell because it's broken, and an argument that it's not broken after all is effectively an argument to allow it.

Thinker
2008-01-15, 08:18 PM
Reluctant as I am to argue a point of rules with Lord Silvanos, I would contend that ability damage and cold damage are not mutually exclusive. Saying that Shivering Touch deals ability damage, not cold damage, is like saying that Cone of Cold deals hit point damage, not cold damage. The hit point or ability score distinction refers to what effect the damage has, but cold refers to how it achieves that effect. Ability score damage can be inflicted, among other means, via negative energy (as with Chill Touch), via poison, or via cold (as with Shivering Touch). And I can find nothing in the description of Resist Energy nor in the Energy Resistance special ability which specifies hit point damage, as opposed to ability damage.

I'm afraid it does not work like that. The [Cold] descriptor has no effect on the type of damage a spell deals. It simply further categorizes the spell, as shown in the SRD here:

[Descriptor]

Appearing on the same line as the school and subschool, when applicable, is a descriptor that further categorizes the spell in some way. Some spells have more than one descriptor.

The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, sonic, and water.

Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on.

A language-dependent spell uses intelligible language as a medium for communication. If the target cannot understand or cannot hear what the caster of a language-dependant spell says the spell fails.

A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.

The wording of the spell itself does not say it deals cold damage, either.

The Glyphstone
2008-01-15, 08:19 PM
{Scrubbed}

SIGGED!!!!

Rutee
2008-01-15, 08:21 PM
Reluctant as I am to argue a point of rules with Lord Silvanos, I would contend that ability damage and cold damage are not mutually exclusive. Saying that Shivering Touch deals ability damage, not cold damage, is like saying that Cone of Cold deals hit point damage, not cold damage. The hit point or ability score distinction refers to what effect the damage has, but cold refers to how it achieves that effect. Ability score damage can be inflicted, among other means, via negative energy (as with Chill Touch), via poison, or via cold (as with Shivering Touch). And I can find nothing in the description of Resist Energy nor in the Energy Resistance special ability which specifies hit point damage, as opposed to ability damage.

The main problem I see with this argument is that we almost never seem to see a clarification if someone is dealing Hit Point Damage, I'm pretty sure. Don't have a core book at my desk, but I'm pretty sure most spells just say "XdY points of damage", and that without a clarification, the referred type is Hit Points damage.

..That said, that still means it's /technically/ to interpretation, unless it's explicitly stated somewhere that if a type of damage is unspecified, it deals hit point damage.

Collin152
2008-01-15, 08:38 PM
I see a Paralysis effect as an effect that inflicts paralysis. I base this off the way the term "effect" is used with regards to spells in the srd. Every spell seems to have an effect, this being the direct result of casting the spell.

This may not be exactly what you were looking for, but it follows with terms like Death effect (an effect that results in death of the target).

Conjecture!
Pah. I asked specifically for none, waiter.


Oh, I still say a dragon can't act at dex 0, seeing as its rigid and helpless, that's fine. I refuse to acknowledge that Dragons are suceptible to some forms of paralyzing attacks while others are rendered useless.
If I commented on Shivering Touch, I obviously forgot this myself.

iceman
2008-01-15, 08:49 PM
Just want to run an idea past everyone here, how about instead of arguing over a smidgen of miswording on the part of Wotc we take a look at the spell shivering touch. Now I don't have access to the wording of the spell description, but to balance things out a little bit why don't we nerf the spell to resemble the ray of enfeeblement spell, which states, at the end of the description, that the subject's score can never be dropped below 1. This would make ST not so overpowering but still useful.

P.S. sorry if I missed this from an earlier post but in the Player's Handbook back in the glossary of terms under ability damage it does say a character with 0 dex is paralyzed. (Though it should say helpless imo) While the DMG says 0 dex = helpless

Go figure huh

Roland St. Jude
2008-01-15, 08:56 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: The rule-violating flaming/trollingness of this thread has reached critical mass. Thread locked. I'll be reviewing and scrubbing it shortly.

Please don't attack, insult, or belittle others. No matter how "cleverly" or "amusingly" worded, attacks on others are not permitted here.