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Emperor Demonking
2008-01-15, 01:08 PM
Can the DM cheat?

When you DM how often do you fudge the dice?

How often do you change the statistics of a monsture during fighting the PCs.

KoDT69
2008-01-15, 01:13 PM
A DM can't cheat since he makes the rules. He just changes them on the fly where necessary to keep the game moving smoothly. I do it all the time and never hear complaints! :smallsmile:

MCerberus
2008-01-15, 01:14 PM
Yes. It's called rule 0 - The DM can change any rule as he sees fit, essentially. This is to alleviate some rule contradictions and allow "house rules" and such.

Only with new players when the dice decided they should die when they didn't really do something stupid.

Never.

jjpickar
2008-01-15, 01:15 PM
Yes they can.

Very rarely.

I wont say "change" so much as make up as I go along. But only with npcs and not actual monsters. This is usually as a result of PCs attacking nps I had not statted out forcing me to use the DMG npc table as a guide and make up the unique bits on the fly with a book in one hand and a pencil in the other, writing frantically as everyone rolls initiative.

Indon
2008-01-15, 01:16 PM
Yes.

And NOBODY CAN STOP ME!

BWA HA HA HA HA!

Mr.Moron
2008-01-15, 01:18 PM
No, simply by virtue of the fact nothing the GM gm does can qualify has cheating.

If he says eating mundane potatoes turns you into a pink anthropomorphic rabbit, well that's fair game. If it's a good game or a fun game is a whole different matter.

NEO|Phyte
2008-01-15, 01:18 PM
Yes.

And NOBODY CAN STOP ME!

BWA HA HA HA HA!

And YOU can't stop me from leaving and never playing a game you DM ever again!

BWA HA HA HA HA!

Indon
2008-01-15, 01:24 PM
Eh, my group could stand to get one more member, but otherwise we've got healthy numbers.

BWA HA HA!

Talya
2008-01-15, 01:27 PM
Can the DM cheat?

When you DM how often do you fudge the dice?

How often do you change the statistics of a monsture during fighting the PCs.

Two words:

Rule Zero.

For storyline reasons my party of 8 level 3 characters is about to run into the BBEG's lieutenant. She's CR8. (A very weak CR8, but still CR8. She's more akin to a very durable CR6.) She's going to escape, and I've figured it out. They should beat her. But if I didn't pull a few punches, half the party would be dead...which isn't fair because I've lead them to this all along, and level 3 is far too low to get resurrections. So I am certainly going to fudge things a bit.

Severus
2008-01-15, 02:01 PM
DMs should avoid fudging too much, I think, because it will increase the players enjoyment of the game to know that they really "earned" it. If I know/feel the DM will fudge things, then the pressure is off.

That said, all DMs must fudge things from time to time.

Tormsskull
2008-01-15, 02:01 PM
Not really. But a successful DM is usually judged by the number of happy players he/she has, thus if a DM changes the rules with out rhyme or reason to cause people to be upset and thus no one wants to play with them anymore, then their inability to cheat will no longer be relevant.

valadil
2008-01-15, 02:03 PM
The DM has every right to use rule 0. Doing so does not cheat the game, but it can cheat the players out of a good game experience.

A referee in a sport can play favorites with teams. He isn't cheating necessarily, as he's responsible for determining who is cheating. But what he's doing is unfair and unethical. I feel the same way about the DM whose DMPC gets twice the experience and loot of the rest of the party. Or whose uber villain just happens to roll natural twenty, even when he's rolling a d6.

Anyway, as a DM I fudge. Not very liberally mind you, but it does happen. As a player I don't like seeing a DM pull punches. It takes the fun out of the combat for me to see the dragon's full attack get distributed so each party member takes one hit. I like my players to think death could happen during any combat. My fudging usually consists of not backing up critical hits against players or increasing a monster's HP. I'll bail a player out if bad luck is screwing them over (but they're free to die of stupidity) and I'll buff up enemies if the fight is going to be over too quickly, but that's about it.

Voyager_I
2008-01-15, 02:25 PM
It's generally considered acceptable for DM's to fudge rolls when the dice are starting become too telling, either making a battle much too easy or much too lethal. Of course, it's easier to fudge in their favor, because they know when they scored a critical hit with their greataxe, but not when the same happens to them.

Zain_Thorngallow
2008-01-15, 02:33 PM
As mentioned above, DMs can certainly fudge, and short of player revolt there is little stopping them from doing so.

I find it generally better not to, though. Random chance can be a bugger, yes, but if the players catch on that Lady Luck starts favouring them when things take a bad turn, it'll damage a lot of the suspense and excitement. The dangers aren't quite so dangerous if you know the DM simply won't let the dice turn things into a TPK.

Likewise the other way around... it might well be anti-climatic to have the Wizard one-shot the big scary monster you spent an eternity building with a single lucky Save-or-Die spell... but hey, let the player have his/ her bad-ass moment.

The extent of "fudging" I find acceptable is in the tactics of the monsters themselves, not their actual rolls. Smart monsters should fight smart, and dumb monsters should fight dumb... but remember to keep things dangerous, but fun. For example, a creature with Disjunction as a spell or spell-like ability... for the sake of all that is pure and good, they can have it, but never have them actually *use* it. It may well be the smartest thing to do to disable the party, but yet entails all the wrathful, throw-your-books-against-the-wall aggravation of a pack of Rust Monsters on steroids.

Likewise, if your party is facing certain non-animal-intelligence creatures who starts doing well against them, it could make sense that it, feeling confident or arrogant, decides it would rather capture them instead of killing them. The penalties it takes doing so might well give the party an opportunity to rally back. Or, if their luck continues to go south, at least you can do a short "captivity" arc rather then a total party kill. This sort of thing gets old quickly if overdone, but now and then, can give flavour without damaging believability too badly. Done well, the players might think you even had such an event planned from the start!

Anyway, my perspective, at least!

YPU
2008-01-15, 02:34 PM
i dont fugde as much as take 10 for monsters, this gives the players a much more stable vision of a monster. afther all they will probably only run into a monster so ofthen, and if you happen to roll to high or low with it it realy gives the wrong feeling.

sikyon
2008-01-15, 03:18 PM
I demand a second, neutral person watching the DM's rolls behind the screen to ensure that there is no fudging going on. Have 2 sets of lawyers, one set to do the work, another set to make sure that they are doing the work.

No, not really. I fudge the rolls a fair bit, but mostly I don't want glass cannon encounters. I'm not proud of it, but it is what I do. Also when I want to introduce new plot elements, like poison. They still roll appropriate fortitude saves, but they tend to need to roll more of them...

Crimson Avenger
2008-01-15, 03:40 PM
Sometimes I think I should fudge, but I roll everything right out in front of my palyers, and they roll everything right out in front of everybody else too.

I refuse to save a party from their own stupidity:

Such as just last Sunday. We are running a geshtalt campaign, so major power gaming. They were on the astral plane screwing with a githyanki stronghold that they knew had a resident wi9zard higher than themselves. they were there to steal a sword that the gith wanted to keep. They steal it and retire to their astral hospice.

Now, understand that every time they did something, I told them about this magical sensor watching them, and they were in this keep for just short of three days, so I felt no remorse when I geared the wizard up to counter their preferred spells. I dispelled their astral hospice, used the action from surprise to Chain Dispel their buffs, and used a free action to tell them to surrender the sword and leave his home.

they attacked.

They all readied for spellcasting, and had a nasty shock when I had an Ironguard in place, so the ranger uses his magical quiver to conjure up a target arrow (all wood) and dealt enough subdual damage to make me lose an Avasculate. I made the offer again. When the party didn't back down, I used the 13th level spell channeling of his duskblade side, and channeled a Harm spell, and told them that they couldn't say I didn't warn them. The ranger promptly failed his Will save and died on the spot. I took the rogue to 4 HP's, and the Havoc Mage to 2 HP's. I still had two attacks left, and made a big show about not killing those two characters, and told them it was their last chance. I got my sword back.

Wizard 15/ Cleric 2 and Duskblade 17

Jack_Simth
2008-01-15, 05:07 PM
Can the DM cheat?

Yes, but only by breaking unwritten rule -1: Don't be a jerk. (this comes in various forms and flavors, as it isn't officially written)


When you DM how often do you fudge the dice?

Grand total? Maybe four or five times over my DMing career.


How often do you change the statistics of a monsture during fighting the PCs.Change? Eh, more like "make up on the fly" when it happens.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-01-15, 05:26 PM
I don't think I've ever cheated with numbers. I've made mistakes in the players' favor via not paying attention, and I once used a DMPC to bail them out of a situation when my policy had been to not have him do anything besides hit things and make sarcastic quips, but they were near death anyway.

And for my weekly plug of Mutants & Masterminds, that game has a system for screwing the players over: when the GM cheats for the sake of the plot (forcing a villain to succeed on a save when he really didn't, etc.), he can just give the heroes a Hero Point (an action point on steroids) which they can use for similar cheatery purposes. All right there in the manual. The game discourages GMs from overusing this, of course, or else the players will feel ineffectual.

Raum
2008-01-15, 06:21 PM
Can the DM cheat?Define 'cheat'. Is changing a die roll cheating? How about changing a rule prior to starting the game? Or on the fly? Frankly, it doesn't matter. Depending on definitions it may or may not be cheating. As long as everyone is still having fun it's all good. However, you need to be observant - not all players (or GMs if you differentiate) will speak up to say they dislike it. For that matter, a few won't analyze the game enough to know what caused the dislike.


When you DM how often do you fudge the dice?Very seldom. Only when, in my judgment, not fudging the dice isn't fun.


How often do you change the statistics of a monsture during fighting the PCs.Depends on whether I'd completely statted out the NPC before play. I may add skills to partially developed NPCs but I seldom (if ever) change existing stats on the fly.

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-15, 06:53 PM
Can the DM cheat?

When you DM how often do you fudge the dice?

How often do you change the statistics of a monsture during fighting the PCs.

It's the DM's job to ensure that a game progresses and is enjoyable for players. There simply are no rules about what a DM absolutely can't do, but in almost every case they follow the same rules the rest of the players agreed to. Unlike a player, the DM isn't forced to do so, however.

In cases where a strict adherance to rules would cause problems, a DM is able to do whatever they need to achieve the goals of keeping the players satisfied and the game progressing. It's not cheating because a DM is very specifically allowed to do this. Not following through on this would be being a bad DM.

UglyPanda
2008-01-15, 07:48 PM
Rule negative 2: Don't use rule 0 to screw over your players without warning.

sikyon
2008-01-15, 08:06 PM
As a sidenote, many players will stop having fun if they realize the DM is cheating.

Therefore, not fun.

I should add something about me changing stuff all the time: I prolong fights, or make them more enjoyable. If a Player earns something, like a lucky critical on a person they were not supposed to kill, I don't just say "they don't die". If a player earns something, give it to them. However, make sure to also give them what they need for the future.


Ie. I send up a party vs the pit fiend. One player crits on power attack and destroys the fiend. No, he uhh... doesn't... but nobody is going to die in the remainder of the fight (which will be prolonged) and it won't adversly affect them in the future, and they are now guarenteed to win, but the fight is just more enjoyable.

Icewalker
2008-01-15, 08:07 PM
I'd say it is acceptable to fudge the dice only when very necessary: if a player dies due to terrible luck, ie high rolls for the villains, or if a plot-central and set-up villain without chances for resurrection dies due to bad luck and a lucky PC crit (if it is a lucky set-up by the PCs to deal with him, and it works, then you're in a bit of trouble).

Talya
2008-01-15, 08:19 PM
The extent of "fudging" I find acceptable is in the tactics of the monsters themselves, not their actual rolls.

Indeed. Playing "batman" against the party isn't fair.

In the above mentioned CR8 battle against my 3rd level party of 8 people (+ 1 third level NPC favored soul healer-bot), the BBEG's lieutennant is a Water Genaasi Druid 6/Wavekeeper 1. They are stealing her ship.

How the hell is a party of 7 going to beat a CR8 druidzilla at all?

That part was easy.

Her animal companion is aquatic (a shark) and therefore not in the battle...unless some poor soul falls overboard.

Genaasi has a terrible +1 level adjustment. While it is useful in this campaign for a player, for an NPC it merely adds to the CR without adding to the difficulty.

Wavekeeper is a neat flavored PrC in this case that nevertheless, costs 1 caster level (at level 1), so the CR8 druid is only a level 6 caster.

But a level 6 druid is still going to end up killing some of the level 3 party members with her spells alone before they take her down, right?

Not if she decides to take them in an animal form (currently limited to medium.) At that point she just becomes a standard leopard with 7 hit dice. It's probably not the best way for her to handle 8 opponents, and no doubt she'll render more than one of them unconscious...but she won't actually do a lot of damage and she'll have to flee. Which is what I want.

Lizardfolk Lich
2008-01-15, 08:30 PM
My party is pretty nice because I can fudge for as long as I want, and all htey need is for me to say that the monster is special. 200 HP for an Iron Golem? It's special. All they expect is extra treasure and exp, but that's a no duh. Sometimes I really can't help it with a team that has a level 15 Druid, 13 Cleric, 14 Wizard, and 5 Fighter/10 Blackguard. The Blackguard lives to kill, with a strength of 28 and the Cleric is a Lich. The wizard plans on being a Worm That Walks eventually :smallsigh:

MiniMan
2008-01-15, 08:32 PM
A DM has every right to fidge. However a good GM gauges encounters correctly and knows how to steer a game. as you become better at GMing there should be less and less a need to fudge rolls. If you find the need to fudge repeatedly you might look at easing back on CR's or work on making a less linear game.

Rutee
2008-01-15, 08:34 PM
If "Cheating" is defined as "Fudge rolls or rules mid play", heck yeah they're allowed. Despite my absolute willingness, and support of, DM 'cheatery' to enhance the game, though, I don't do it very often. Or at least, haven't. I did it once because my pink dice were rolling altogether too high, too consistently, once, though (And really, the prospect of dying to /animals/, in a game where animals are not supposed to be real antagonists, is... weird.)

As to the various "Earned it", comments.. I view roleplaying more as an exercise in storytelling. Since 'winning' or anything like that just isn't my goal, it wouldn't detract from /my/ fun, at least, to know the game was being fudged too much.

Though there is a point where you go far enough to beg the question "Why are we botherring with a system?" That's probably what I consider to be the breaking point of cheating, if I had to guess. That and breaking Rule -1.

Aquillion
2008-01-15, 08:43 PM
It's silly to even ask this question. The DM is the one who decides if you run into a group of 10 bandits or 1000, if the kingdom is ruled by a benevolent old man who loves adventurers or a bloodthirsty tyrant who orders death to anyone armed with swords or spells*, if that chest is full of gold or deadly poisonous parahana that can swim through air... no, of course the DM can't cheat. It's their world. They can run it well or badly (and if they're finding they have to blatantly fudge rolls with any frequency, they're probably running it badly)


* The tyrant also orders death for any other weapon, plus for psions, priests, shapeshifters, musicians, and anyone who likes to punch people, since I know some clown is going to point that out. He isn't a very nice tyrant.

PersonofJid
2008-01-15, 10:32 PM
I've been known to cheat on a few occasions. Though I always try to come up with a reason that seems plausible, either IC or OOC. Emphasis on the try due to the fact that I'm not always successful. :smallbiggrin:

But to answer the questions:

Yes, a DM can cheat. Easily.

Not often. If dice rolling is involved then I stick to the rules almost all the time.

Again, not often. The only time that happens for me is if I'm using an example character from the DMG, or something, and I think it needs more hit points.

Most of my cheating is done in treasure giving. Sometimes my NPCs are really decked out, and I don't want to give the PCs too much good stuff too quickly.

SoD
2008-01-16, 01:43 AM
Not cheat, per se, more bending the rules.

When it comes to fudging rolls, I'll do that for lower level characters in life or death situations. But once they hit a certain level (3/4ish) I stop pulling the punches.

Talic
2008-01-16, 02:09 AM
Not possible. The rules state that the DM can make or change the rules at any time. The rules state that all decisions by the DM are final. The DM cannot cheat because anything he does is in accordance with the rules.

The more accurate question is, can he be a wanker? The answer to that, sadly, is yes. Don't be a wanker, kids.

Narmoth
2008-01-16, 03:30 AM
Well, the dm shoudln't cheat, as in changing the rules from situation to situation or make the rules different for npcs vs pcs.

He is free to change rules on the other hand.
But the rule change has to be consequent, applying to all situations alike.
Or the players start leaving

Hagentai
2008-01-16, 06:33 AM
Rule 0 is with out a shadow of a doubt the laziest cop out pile of pig swaller that D and D ever has known.

I don't dm with a screen. I roll out in the opening.

To all the power crazed dms out there, nothings really stopping your players from cheating.

Lying about how many Hps they have left, there rolls if you have two many players at the table.

If you act like a big enough tool I hope your players return the favor in spades.

kamikasei
2008-01-16, 06:40 AM
Rule 0 is with out a shadow of a doubt the laziest cop out pile of pig swaller that D and D ever has known.

I think perhaps you have a different idea of Rule 0 from the rest of the board. "The DM has the final say in any disputes". Lazy pigswill indeed...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-16, 06:40 AM
I understand DMs fudging rolls and changing characters on the fly, but if you plan well you won't need to. You control everything that exists in the world, and changing rolls or stats should be your very last method of altering the game, as that is only supported by rule 0, while adjusting WBL or CR of an encounter beforehand, or even having reinforcements show up, is more fair and justified than altering the basic setup for your players. I've died because of bad dice rolls before, or good ones on the part of my GM, and I view Lady Luck as an integral part of the game. That is what gives the players a sense that they are mortal, in my experience, and that the world is real and not created solely for their entertainment.

Tormsskull
2008-01-16, 06:45 AM
To all the power crazed dms out there, nothings really stopping your players from cheating.

Point out on the doll where the bad DM touched you.

Quincunx
2008-01-16, 06:53 AM
*sob*
There! On. . .on the natural ONE!
*dissolves in tears*

Yami
2008-01-16, 06:58 AM
Rule 0 is with out a shadow of a doubt the laziest cop out pile of pig swaller that D and D ever has known.

I don't dm with a screen. I roll out in the opening.

To all the power crazed dms out there, nothings really stopping your players from cheating.

Lying about how many Hps they have left, there rolls if you have two many players at the table.

If you act like a big enough tool I hope your players return the favor in spades.
I disagree with your first statement.

I fail to see what not having a screen means. You can fudge a dice rolled in the open just as well. No need to argue, I've done this my self and seen it done. Granted, when I've seen it done the player FAILED.

Hopefully he players are stopping themselves from cheating. I see cheating as a bad sign myself. When I catch my players doing so I know I've gone too far. (Isn't this a bit of an aside though?)

Sometimes they do actually forget. It happens.

And honestly, the DM's acting 'like a tool' I would hope that the players get the hint and have someone else run a campaign. It is nice to just play every once and a while. Again, not my prefered method.

Lyrandar
2008-01-16, 06:59 AM
Can the DM cheat?
When you DM how often do you fudge the dice?
How often do you change the statistics of a monsture during fighting the PCs.

Define cheat.
The DM can't really cheat because the DM rules all. Not saying they should or shouldn't.

I'll only fudge rolls in really critical situations, and often only when someone really important is killed when they shouldn't be (either PC or villain).

I haven't. Ever. And I don't plan on it.

Saph
2008-01-16, 07:11 AM
If I'm DMing, and making everything up on the fly as I go along (which is the way I usually DM these days, since whenever I'm asked to DM it's always with zero notice), then it's a bit hard to say how I can cheat. If I say the monsters have got a +4 to attack and do 1d8+1 damage, as opposed to +2 to attack and 1d6 damage . . . then which one's cheating? They're custom monsters in the first place, it's all completely made up anyway, and there's no 'correct' figure to compare it to.

That said, I have had some DMs who play with a different set of rules for their NPCs than the PCs have to use, which does feel like cheating. (E.g. the NPC just happens to have prepared the exact obscure spell that turns out to be useful in this battle, even though he has absolutely no reason to know in advance that he'd need it. Or his troops 'just happen' not to spend any resources targeting the illusion the wizard's created.) That kind gets real annoying after a while - it's bad enough that the enemies are always higher-level than us, do they really need metagame help as well?

- Saph

Talic
2008-01-16, 07:45 AM
If I'm DMing, and making everything up on the fly as I go along (which is the way I usually DM these days, since whenever I'm asked to DM it's always with zero notice), then it's a bit hard to say how I can cheat. If I say the monsters have got a +4 to attack and do 1d8+1 damage, as opposed to +2 to attack and 1d6 damage . . . then which one's cheating? They're custom monsters in the first place, it's all completely made up anyway, and there's no 'correct' figure to compare it to.

Amen, sistah. Preach the good word.


That said, I have had some DMs who play with a different set of rules for their NPCs than the PCs have to use, which does feel like cheating. (E.g. the NPC just happens to have prepared the exact obscure spell that turns out to be useful in this battle, even though he has absolutely no reason to know in advance that he'd need it. Or his troops 'just happen' not to spend any resources targeting the illusion the wizard's created.) That kind gets real annoying after a while - it's bad enough that the enemies are always higher-level than us, do they really need metagame help as well?
- Saph
I usually allow BBEG casters to have a bit of flexibility, to reflect intelligence far beyond my own, and research. I select the highest 4 levels of magic the caster can cast and set those in stone. The lower level spells I leave open for selection on the fly.

Falrin
2008-01-16, 10:21 AM
As a DM I can play whole encounters:

Without rolling dice*.
Without keeping record of HP or spellslots.
Without knowing the exact amount of mooks that are allerted by the alarm.

And all of my Players will have fun, won't notice and feel like they took on the world.

My players don't know this. When they do, it's back to rolling for me, but as long as I can keep the illusion up I'll do it.

I know how often a goblin should hit a certain AC and I know what range of damage to espect. I know what spell DC's are to high, and wath hp they have.

When 50 goblins (and i do that quit often) attack the PC's, I won't keep track of the mooks, maybe not even of their 5th LvL Sorceror leader or 3th LvL barbarian bodyguards.

When 2 5th LvL Blackgruards attack I'll roll and playy by the book, but only when it goes smoothly.

Jayabalard
2008-01-16, 10:40 AM
When you DM how often do you fudge the dice?When it makes the game more fun.


How often do you change the statistics of a monsture during fighting the PCs.Always.

Scathach
2008-01-16, 01:07 PM
Yes, a GM can cheat.

I've fudged a die roll or two in my time. Usually when a player is already frustrated due to extreme bad luck and the next roll would destroy his character. In such situations, I have no problem fudging the damage to only drop him to say, -5, instead of -15.


I've also altered adventures a time or two. I did one dungeon that was full of traps, only to have one rogue player cancel and the other get their character incapacitated early on. Rather than TPK, I 'forgot' about most of the traps.

Scathach
2008-01-16, 01:10 PM
Yes, a GM can cheat.

I've fudged a die roll or two in my time. Usually when a player is already frustrated due to extreme bad luck and the next roll would destroy his character. In such situations, I have no problem fudging the damage to only drop him to say, -5, instead of -15.


I've also altered adventures a time or two. I did one dungeon that was full of traps, only to have one rogue player cancel and the other get their character incapacitated early on. Rather than TPK, I 'forgot' about most of the traps.

Narmoth
2008-01-16, 01:55 PM
Rule 0 is with out a shadow of a doubt the laziest cop out pile of pig swaller that D and D ever has known.

only thing that keeps players from exploiting the errors in the rules.


I don't dm with a screen. I roll out in the opening. I rarely roll at all. And never damage. The hits and damage is distributed how I see it benefits the story most. Of course, when it's most benefitial to the story for these things to determined by chance, it's back to the dice, but rolling for 200 skeletonbs attacking a lvl 10 cleric?


o all the power crazed dms out there, nothings really stopping your players from cheating.

Lying about how many Hps they have left, there rolls if you have two many players at the table.

I allways watch what every player rolls.
If I needed, I could take copies of the character sheets (something I would do if I had more players than I could remember the character stats of)
But I usually manage with checking the character sheets of the players. Then again, we have played for many years, and I trust them not to cheat (and they trust me to "cheat")


If you act like a big enough tool I hope your players return the favor in spades.

No, they simply leave.
And that is the basic agreement of the game:

"the players will follow the rules as defined by the dm and will play along the plot that the dm sets up as long as the plots and story is interesting.
The dm will make the game world, and plots for the players entertaiment, and only deviate from the rules to make the game better as judged by himself and the players"